Armchair Anonymous: Substitute Teacher

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous. I'm Dan Rather, and I'm joined by Marla Maples. Who's Marla Maples? That was a person.

Yeah, I don't know if that's her name. I don't think it's correct. Well, this episode's about her, so I hope it's correct. This episode's about Marla Maples. Where is she now? A girl from Naples, shockingly. Yeah, that is very confusing. It's confusing and convenient. It is. No, today is substitute teachers, which we just want to give them, you know, an extra shout out. This one's tricky because at the same time.

I recognize it's the hardest of the hard jobs. Yes. It's impossible to wrangle all those brats. It's hard enough to be a teacher. Yes, exactly. That's the hardest. Where you establish trust. Then you're trying to wrangle 35 nuts. But then you come in for a day. Nobody likes you or trusts you. And everyone knows it's time to fuck with you and do whatever you want. Oh, my God. Now, my own baggage is.

I certainly deserved it. But substitutes hated me, I think. I had a lot of dust-ups with substitutes. Oh, I'm shocked by this information. I can't even believe it. I'm the worst. Really, I'm in reflection. It's not great. Okay.

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Hello, is this Natasha? Yes. Where are you, Natasha? I am in Indiana, and I'm also underneath my son's loft bed right now. Oh, wonderful. What part of Indiana? I'm in Bloomington. I don't know Bloomington. Thank God. That's where IU is. Oh, IU. Oh, yes. You just did a signal. The signal for IU is? The IU. Oh, you do too. You go IU.

That's cute. Okay. Now, Natasha, are you the victim of a substitute teacher? Are you a substitute teacher victim? I'm a substitute teacher victim. I'm so sorry. This is a public service announcement, really. So I'm going to take you guys back to 2012. I'm in college.

And my mom has been working at an elementary school for many years, even back to the point where I went to elementary school. So I know all of the teachers and the principal and everybody's like, you would be a great substitute teacher. We could probably fill your days without even having to go to a different school. And I was like, that sounds great. Easy because I know everyone. I get through most of the year and I am able to just sub at that school. But I did.

decide one day to take a half-day job at another school. I thought that it would be okay. I had a cousin who worked there. I let her know, like, I'm going to be in Mrs. Smith's class tomorrow, and she didn't respond, but I was like, no big deal. So I get to school the next day, and it's pretty... in the morning. What grade? It's third grade. Things are wild.

in an elementary school office in the morning because parents are calling in and they're trying to figure out like what's going on. So the administrative assistant was just like, hey, why don't you head down to Mrs. Smith's room and someone will be down to introduce themselves. And I'm like, OK, sounds good.

So I get there and this gentleman comes in and he's like, hi, I'm Mr. Jones and I'm the discipline administrator. We didn't have a discipline administrator at the other school I'd been subbing at. And it was similarly sized and it had the same layout, all of these things. So I'm like a little bit of a red flag, but I'm going to let it go. He's like.

it's really nice to meet you. If you need anything today, feel free to give me a call. I'm happy to help. And my mom told me from the jump, do not call the principal to your classroom because if you do, they're going to be like, she can't manage this whole thing. Yeah. Shit. I was just like, I don't usually call, but it's really nice to meet you. So he leaves and then my cousin comes in and she's got like this giant Dr. Pepper and a chocolate donut.

And she's like, hey, I got you a treat. And I was like, okay. And she's like, you're going to need it. This is a wild class. Oh, no. I was scared, but also a little annoyed because she's my older cousin. I've been subbing in quote-unquote. unquote, the worst class at this other school for a while. Okay, you felt it was condescending a little bit, patronizing. I was overly confident. So the kids come in and they're a little bit...

That's normal because, you know, it's substitute teacher day and everybody's like, what? Yeah, time to party. Yeah, and I see Mr. Jones walking in the hallway a little, and he's kind of checking in. I'm like, okay, whatever. But I'm able to wrangle everybody to their desks, and I start calling roll. And I see out of the corner of my eye, there's this kid, and he's just...

the most mischievous look on his face. And I'm like, he's about to do something ornery. But before I can even say anything, he reaches behind himself and grabs the teacher's stapler from her craft table. And he starts stapling everything. He's stapling his shirt sleeves. He staples his shirt to his pants. He staples his neighbor's shirt. He's stapling papers. And I'm like, put the stapler down. I'm trying to diffuse the situation with words.

He just thinks it's hilarious. The class is losing it a little bit. How old are you at this moment? 21. Also, what an interesting, I've never even thought about chaos by stapler. Well, he had been eyeing that stapler the whole year going, if my teacher calls in. sick even a single day i'm gonna staple this whole fucking place up this place is going to the ground well i walk toward him to take the stapler and he jumps onto the desk oh my god do you guys know the pd pablo song raise up yeah so

He's like North Carolina. Yeah, come on and raise up. Take your shirt off. Twist around your head. Yeah. Helicopter. Okay. He rips the shirt. that he just stapled to his pants, takes it off, and he's reenacting this whole thing, swinging the shirt around his head. Like a helicopter, as they say. Oh, it's very liberal. He's screaming the lyrics. Everybody's losing it in the class. It erupts.

Some of them are scared they're going to get in trouble, obviously. That would have been me in school. I would be like, please, everybody sit down. Me too. Be nice to Miss Natasha. She's having a hard time. I wouldn't have been like, everyone sit down. I would have looked at you and been like, I know. Oh, right. I know.

These idiot children. I have to deal with them all day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll get to leave today, but I'll be stuck with them. Yeah, so I realize I'm in over my head. I'm walking toward him to try and help him. get down from the desk. He's open to the stapler at this point too and is like stapling at me.

So he jumps down and he starts moving desks and chairs, pushing them over. So there's like an obstacle course for me. He's bobbing, I'm weaving. I had three hours of substitute teacher training before we got started. Three. Yeah, I'm like, I need to call Mr. Jones, but he's running towards the phone. Thankfully, the door opens and Mr. Jones walks in. He's like, hey, I heard things were getting a little wild down here. And he just got the sentence out and the kid starts running towards him.

And I'm like, okay. And I realized immediately that he has had more than three hours of substitute teacher training because he knew exactly what to do. He like scooped him up. Probably not allowed to do that in 2025. Or maybe you are. I was not allowed to do that in 2012. But I think he was allowed to. I guarantee if someone is a danger to themselves or others, yes, you can probably intervene. So he carries him out of the classroom.

I'm able to get everybody else under control. What if you just heard blood-curdling screaming when the door's shut and smashing against lockers and fists on head? Yeah. I was so thankful that that half day was over. I never subbed there on purpose again. On purpose.

Does that mean you still had to? I did. So they shared music teachers and I didn't know that. And I was subbing a whole day for a music teacher, but she was half day at one school and half day at another. Oh no. So I ended up there. I did not have to call Mr. Jones that day. No staplers were involved.

And I went to the office and the administrative coordinator when I was leaving was like, I heard you had a hard day. She was so sweet. She was like, I wish we had gift cards to give to people. Sometimes the days are hard, but then she panics and she's like. you have a necklace on, but no earrings. Did you come here with earrings? And I was like, no. And she was like, oh, okay, okay. She knew to scan for stolen jewelry.

You weren't wearing a watch or anything when you came in? You still have your car keys and your wallet still in your pocket? Okay, then you're good to leave. Also, to assume that just because you're wearing a necklace, you must be wearing earrings is very funny. Very 2012. Textbook 2012. Wow. Wow. Did you act like everything had gone perfectly to your cousin since she had condescended to you?

no i mean she's there too all day so obviously like i'm sure it was the talk of the teacher's lounge at lunch i got out of there i was like i'm not even staying yeah that place sucks yeah when you drive away from a school that you've subbed at and you're leaving the parking lot you know

you're never coming back does it feel like leaving a boyfriend's house you've broken up with and you're just so happy to get out of there like something you've set on fire and you're just driving away from yeah so that was 13 years ago are you currently a teacher

I am not a teacher. I'm a divorce mediator. Oh, wow. Yeah, you could still benefit from that coordinator. Divorce lawyer is a great prompt. Oh, yeah. Crazy divorce and maybe divorce. lawyer. That's good. Yeah, I'll connect it. You must have a million stories, yeah?

Sometimes when people come to me, they've got stuff figured out, but the court can also order people to go to mediation. That's when things get as crazy as swinging your shirt around. Is it jaded your sense of romance? No, but I will say I actually went through. divorce that was mediated so that's what drew me to the whole thing but

I feel like now maybe I would pre-mediate before I got married again. Yeah, smart. I've heard prenups pitched in a way that's interesting in that same regard, which is like you have the opportunity to negotiate a settlement when you both like it. other or when you both hate each other yeah what would you like to do it's like well when you

Phrase it that way. That makes a lot more sense. That's the spin for sure. Right now we love each other and we don't want to hurt each other. So let's do it today. Let's form all of our contracts now. That's very smart. Well, Natasha, this has been a delight. I'm sorry you had that experience, but also I'm happy you had that experience. I kind of love the visual.

It's just someone stapling fucking everything. And tossing chairs around and running, a little light jumping. Well, thanks for chatting with us. Thank you, guys. And also, I just have to tell you, I'm a day one arm, Terry. I heard Dax on Unqualified.

when you were talking about the podcast. So I've been listening since then. I also have to say that at our house, if Dax and Monica don't suggest it, I don't participate. So if anybody wants me to like watch a movie or listen to music or whatever. I'm like, well, I don't know. We'll have to see if it's on the podcast coming up. Oh my God. Your house hates us so much. They're like, could we get a direct line to Dax and Monica? Cause we want to go to the movies.

Well, then we've got great wrecks. Last night we watched What Lies Beneath, per Monica's suggestion. And guess what? It was great. Because we're on a lake and I wanted it to feel spooky, and it did. Yeah, 25 years old, but it had some tension. There's a lot of jump outs. Yeah. All right, take care. Have a great rest of your summer. Thanks. You too. Bye, Natasha.

Hi. You look AI. You do. And you also look like Anne Hathaway. You look like if they animated Anne Hathaway to be a Disney character. Thank you. What fake name should we use? Anyone. And for Anne Hathaway. Or we could call you Hathaway. I have to use a fake name because I'm still in school in the district. I think I'm your first teenage. Oh my gosh. That's why you look AI. You're so useful. I'm looking for like flaws in your face and there just aren't any. Oh my God. I'm so.

How old are you? I'm 15. 15? Oh my God, you're definitely our youngest caller. This is so sweet. Are you old enough to know Anne Hathaway? Yeah, I've actually gotten that once or twice before. Oh, okay, okay, okay. You're hip to that. Okay, so Anne, you have a... Yeah, so I'm going to set the stage a little bit. My elementary school was slightly chaotic in terms of faculty.

So if you know the situation with the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher in Harry Potter, it was kind of like that, but for principals. So they were constantly changing. I was there for around two and a half years because of COVID. And there were four or five principals. The principal that was there at the time of my story was there for only half a year because a different guy was there and he left and she was using it as a stepping stone for a promotion.

So this takes place when I was in third grade, so I was around nine as well as my classmates. And my teacher was out, and obviously there was a sub. We'll call him Mr. S. Right away when I walk in, I get really weird vibes from this guy. He's pretty young. I was little, so everyone seems old. But... I think he was right out of school or maybe taking classes, but in his early 20s, probably. But he's immediately angry, glaring at everyone who walks in.

And my class wasn't too terrible for eight and nine-year-olds. We talked a little bit. I was always one of those kids who was really stuck up about the rules and never got in trouble and was silent. Prefer to sit at the front of the classroom and stuff. Oh, yeah. Monty, did you sit at the front of the classroom? I think we had signed seats, but yeah, I would have. I went straight to the...

back last row furthest corner it's so interesting i know i know isn't it funny these archetypes he's immediately snapping at kids if they're asking anything he was even yelling at me and i know i wasn't doing anything wrong so i was about to cry throughout the whole day because he's just screaming at kids. After a couple hours of this through math and writing and the blissful period where we leave for lunch and recess, we had rug time.

It's where everyone would gather on the rug and the teacher would read us our book. And at the time, we were reading The Wild Robot, and we loved that book. So everyone was super good during that time. Everyone was silent, made sure we were silent because we wanted to get through the book.

So we all gather on the rug and Mr. S grabs the book, still glaring at every one of us. And he opens it and then yells at us to be quiet. And I remember this so clearly that not a single person was talking. Oh, wow. He just screamed, be quiet. No one was making a peep. Or he would scream like, shut up. Oh my God. Very harsh. Was he inordinately muscular? Because maybe he was like having a roid rage. Grawny guy. Oh, okay. He was angry about his slight build. It's so.

We have to label him either a meathead, an incel. Looking back, maybe it's like incel vibes. Oh, yeah. Anyway, so he reads the first line of the chapter. And at the same time, a girl in the back of the rug whispers. one word to the girl next to her. Mr. S immediately slams the book closed and starts freaking out on us. He begins screaming and cursing us out. Oh, my God. Most of the words our nine-year-old selves did not know. How far did he go? Did he drop any F-bombs? Oh, yeah.

Oh my God. And did he say like the C word? I definitely wouldn't remember that. Okay. Because I wouldn't have known it. These words I've heard like, bitch. Oh my God. This guy's unhinged. He was... Crazy. Half the class begins crying and he starts screaming at us. Stop crying. You're being babies. Stop crying. You're being loud and annoying. Oh, he's lost control of himself and now the classroom.

Then he suddenly goes around to all the windows and shuts all the blinds, shuts off the lights, closes the door, shuts like the little window in the door. And makes us sit silently in the dark for what felt like hours. But I think looking back, it was like 30 to 40 minutes, which is still really long for little kids. Yeah, that's an eternity. This is very sick. Yeah, he's having a mental collapse. Yeah.

Also, do you think he was like, I need 40 minutes of darkness to regulate? No, I don't think he's smart enough to know he needs to regulate. Okay. He threatens us, if you talk, you're going to the principal. I'd be like, get me to the principal. But principal was... end of the world if you're going there for getting in trouble for us. They were like, we don't want to go to the principal.

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Once he thought we had been punished enough, he turns all the lights back on and we begin social studies, but it wasn't like the history social studies. It was... this book and on lessons on being nice and empathy which he could have taken twist of content

was trying to teach irony. Oh, that could have been. The whole day was mapped out. I know I got this book at 2 p.m. I'm reading about forgiveness and empathy. There was questions in the book and it had a little to do with history and stuff, but not really. And I... so vividly remember this book because it had like creepy looking cartoon animals on it and no one had seen it before so everyone was really confused and so we're all asking questions and he's

getting really mad at us asking questions, saying, you should know this. Your teacher left this for you, so you should know how to do it. This is okay that you don't know this. So my friend, Luca, he was really confused. So he asked some questions about it. Pretty standard questions like, oh, I don't know how to do this and was getting yelled at in response, of course. So at the third question.

Mr. S hits his breaking point. He screams at him saying, you can't just ask stupid fucking questions. Oh my God. And he storms over to him. So Luca... Fun fact about him, he had a broken arm from a skiing accident. Oh, no. So he's got a cast on? Yeah. Mr. S grabs him by the broken arm and drags him out of the classroom. Stop it. and takes him to a storage closet and throws him in there. This is so crazy. He said, you're not allowed to leave this room until you finish this spelling test.

Is this guy not considering this is his last day of work? Or does he know that? Could he be behaving this way and think that's not going to get back to anybody? He, I think, is mentally very unwell. He's lost it. He's lost it. Okay, okay. The weird thing about that is...

I think it was his first day because you start to know the subs. My school was pretty small, and this wasn't one of the regular ones. Sounds like they pulled a guy out of the back of a cab. The back of a police car. Yeah, that too, a paddy wagon. Meanwhile, we're still in the classroom.

half the kids are sobbing i was on that half and the other half are conspiring to like leave the classroom and go get help find a teacher and stuff because mr s wasn't letting us go to the bathroom he wouldn't let us leave or anything to go be like hey we got a crazy sub so two kids decide to be the ones to risk it and both to the principal's office to report it yes good

Heroes. They probably have ADHD. Mr. S comes back to the classroom and we finish out the day. Luca obviously is like, I'm not going to sit in this closet. Also goes to the principal's office and be like. This guy just took me into a closet. Great. So the craziest part about all of this is that the entire incident was blamed on the kids. The next day, the teacher sat us down with the principal.

and said, look, what he did was unexcusable, but this is all your fault. You shouldn't have been terrible kids. You pushed him to it. You were talking and that's why he was yelling at you, pinning it completely on us. This was probably the first time where I was like,

Adults are wrong. Yes. Yes, this is a huge moment. Yeah, your worldview shifts a little bit. Oh, they don't know everything. But let me ask you a quick question. Was any of the classmates standing on their desk with their shirt off and a stapler in their hand?

and waving their shirt over that because what if this was the same third grade class that our previous caller warned us about and maybe she's full of shit no she's not don't say the s word in front of her class was completely unhinged and this guy had an appropriate reaction. You know what? It's still not an appropriate reaction. It's not an appropriate reaction. You're absolutely right. No, but our previous caller had a kid on the desk with his shirt off. Stapling everything in sight. Oh, gosh.

Did you ever see this guy return? So he did get fired. Oh, okay. But no email went out to parents. Only Luca's parents got an email about this because they were called in. The parents only heard it from the kids. They had no idea from administration. And the reason I talked about... The principle at the beginning is because I believe she didn't want it pinned on her for a bad hire because she was trying to get the promotion. Oh, boy. That makes sense. A little cover-up.

Ooh, there's so many dynamics in a workplace. One dynamic that just hit me, Monica, was because you're so clearly not nine years old, this story does feel like a long time ago, but this is only six years ago. I had the exact thought. I was like, I can't believe this was so real.

It sounds like a story from the 80s. Yeah. None of us had like phones or anything, so we couldn't do anything about it. Can you imagine your kid coming home and being like, so we had a sub and they turned off the lights and locked the door. Said fuck about a dozen times.

Called a few of us bitches. You'd find his address and kill him. Yeah, that would not be good. I mean, that's truly traumatic. You ever held hostage? Yeah. That is wild. I'm sorry that happened. It's the right amount of trauma, though, I'll say. It's good to be in like a trial situation where it's like you're uncomfortable.

comfortable, it's going on, you feel trapped, you regret how you behaved a little bit, you have a different game plan for when the stakes are higher. It's not bad. I don't want it for anyone. But it's a little like... Waterboarding, psychological games. Like throwing him in the storage closet and giving him a spelling test and he's nine. Like this is wild. I'm still friends with him. It's like his favorite story to tell people is the crazy sub threw me in the closet.

Yeah. I listen to you guys literally all the time. High school's high school, so lots of anxiety and all the craziness. So your podcast really helps me calm down and people are listening to music. I'm like, I'm listening to Dax and Monica. You are so special. Please convert your entire high school. Yeah, we'd love a new young base. Okay, great. All right, take care. Have a great rest of your summer. You too. That was so sweet.

It was really sweet. I can't believe we have a 15-year-old who is independent enough to be like, I'm writing in. I only believe it because of going to Lincoln School that time and staying in line for a hamburger. And I was talking a lot with the hamburger chef. And this 13-year-old girl turned and looked at me and she goes, hey.

Wait, do you have a show called Armchair Anonymous? I'd never heard my name. And I was like, this is awesome. Yeah. She didn't know anything and she's listening to the show. It's hard at that age to be like, I'm writing into a show and I'm going to go talk. That's very, very cool. Yes. I agree. I bet she's going to work at Vogue and first she's going to go work at Vogue and like have drabby clothes. You're hung up on the Anne Hathaway fake name, I think. And then she's going to date Jagers.

No, Anne Hathaway never dated Jagers. In the crazy drug movie, like the pharmaceutical sales reps. Oh my God. Yeah, that's right. I forgot about that. Show a little stint with Jagers. Our guest left that was here. Oh. Oh, fuck. She's back. She wants to go by Marla. Are you lying? No. You're not lying. Not lying. Marla Maples. Oh, my God. That's weird. That's so. I saw it. I must have saw it. I was holding the piece of paper. I bet that's where I got it.

I don't know, Dax. Okay. Hello? Is this, quote, Marla? This is Marla. Okay, so this is a fake name and you have selected it. Please tell me more. I chose it because it's a reference from one of my favorite movies. And you might find out later because another character in the story also has the name.

It's connected to us. Okay, great. It's kind of a riddle, too. I love a riddle. Yeah, it's a story and a riddle. This is two for one. I love it. There's a lot of two for ones, actually. This story has to do with two prompts combined, student teaching and stalker. Oh, my God. Great. Amazing. OK, let's hear it, Marla. This happened about 20 years ago. I graduated mid-year from college. I had to get a student teaching job before I could get my next job. And so the first day ever student teaching.

sent me to a middle school behavior disorder, emotionally disturbed classroom. And now they call them like social emotional therapy classrooms. So this is like jump in headfirst kind of thing. I asked a kid in the class if he wanted to play a game and he just...

Stares me in the eyes and he stabs a pencil right through his hand. What? And is like just looking at me and he's bleeding and doesn't say a word. Oh my God. He stabs himself immediately in the hand while staring at you in the eye. Because I asked him to play a game. He was like, this is my. A game killed my dad. And now it's going to kill my hand. Oh, wow. I am kind of stunned and don't know.

what to do, but that emotionless stare with his head down doesn't say a word. He does that this whole entire time that I'm there. Obviously handled this situation pretty good because they asked me to come back for a month in that classroom. Stop it. So really quick, when the kid stabs himself with the pencil, I presume you call down to the principal's office or you walk him down. To first aid, the nurse. I took him down.

to the nurse and we had put something on him as we walked down and then they took care of it. They kind of seemed like he does this stuff. This is upsetting. Then I'm back in the classroom for a month. During that month, I find out that that pencil stabbing kid, I'm going to call him Tyler.

So my name is Marla. His name's Tyler. Have you guys figured it out yet? Marla and Tyler. No. It's not Marley and me. It's a fight club. He had disassociative identity disorder. Oh my God. Rob got it. So I find out that school year. That Tyler has, at home, burnt his mattress and almost burnt his house down. And, this is the kicker, he killed the neighbor's dog that year. This is some real sociopathy. Yeah.

disassociative identity disorder along with other mental illnesses. He and I actually made a pretty quick connection. Even though he really didn't talk to me very much, he kind of just gave me that look all the time, that same look. We didn't really have any other problems that year with that kid.

Eventually, it ends up at the end of that month, I leave the classroom. I move on with my regular life and teaching. But I do hear about him throughout the years. And when he was 17, he stabbed his dad four times. He did not. kill his dad, but that did get him sent to a mental health juvenile detention facility out east. So I thought at that point, everything was over. He's out east. I won't hear much more.

Well, 10 years later, I'm in a tanning salon because that was the rage back then. And I know better now. Sure, sure, sure. And he's now 27? 10 years from when I was in his class. So he's now 20, 21, 22, somewhere around there. Okay, great. So 10 years later, I'm in a tanning salon. I walk out of the tanning room and I literally smack right into a younger 20-year-old-ish guy. And I say, sorry.

And he's just staring at me blankly. No, no. Ew. Oh, my God. This is a horror movie. And he says, I know you. You're Marla. And he says it like three times. I know you, Marla. You're Marla. And he kind of like just stares at me and doesn't say anything else. My gut sinks because obviously I immediately know who this person is because I cannot forget that stare.

I'm starting to get nervous, and I think the person that was working there could tell that I was nervous and uncomfortable. So she says, sir, do you need a tanning booth? Because I thought you knew this young lady. which I loved her calling me young lady because I was not at that time. She's like, I thought you knew this young lady. You've been waiting outside her tanning room for 15 minutes. So then I'm starting to go, okay.

Did he follow me here? Did he just see me walk in? How does he know? And the part that really bothered me was how did he know my first name? Because teachers go by their last name. And then I don't really remember much after that because my mind was kind of racing through all those questions. I just hop in my car really quick, lock the doors, call my mom. I do get home safe, but I'm obviously rattled. What was that encounter? Because I could tell he was not mentally.

Yes. Right. In that state. Otherwise, I'm all about saying hi and talking to my former students. So basically, I thought getting home, being rattled was the end of my story. But I did some research and apparently he is back in our hometown. Which I still live in. And it was posted on social media that he is window peeping and stalking people. And that he is off his meds and please don't give him any alcohol. Off his meds. This is not good. There's a chance that my story.

isn't over i hope it is oh my god marla i don't like this story at all can you tell the police Now it's 10 years past that time. Now it's been 20 years almost. And I haven't seen him again. And I don't even know if that was just he remembered me then. You know, I don't know. But we don't even know how he found you. I hate to be morbid, but I do think you just got to tell them like, hey, this happened.

In the event something happens to me. Right. It's likely this. Probably. I think that's not a terrible idea. And then maybe they'll patrol more around you or something. As we've interviewed a lot of stalker victims, the more incidents that have been documented, the better off you are. You do this one, it's like, hey, this is nothing, but I do want there to be some paper trail of this. And then you see him again at the grocery store and he says something a little bit weirder.

and you go, hey, does another thing happen? I would imagine, hopefully, you're getting to a point where you could probably get a restraining order if you did feel a little nervous. The more things that are documented, probably the better. I'm just like, oh, it's just one little incident. No, you're right. Like it could be one little incident leads to another little incident, a huge incident. And I mean, his history is probably enough.

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It brings up a lot of new thoughts for me. One is, I guess I never considered the notion that you can be very impactful as a teacher on somebody in a very interesting time. It can be more impactful for them in a way that you maybe not be aware of. That's an interesting part of this. In good ways.

Yeah, in great ways and then probably in equal measure on the other side of it. And then the next thing I was thinking is just, it is so rough that there's 7 billion of us and there's going to be some people who... are dangerous and it's not their fault i'm not angry at them i feel bad and compassionate for them and also what do we do there's so many stories like

All the signs were there for a very long time. I don't know what we can do about that. We got to figure out something. Or is it just the reality of life on planet Earth? No, I don't think it can be a reality that it's clear he's going to kill someone. And we're just like, I guess he's going to kill someone.

we should be able to have a plan in place. That's what I'm nervous about, too. You know, I'm a big mental health advocate. I am on some meds myself as well for certain things. And I'm very much about going to therapy and about getting the help that you need. I do just worry about people who are possibly going to have their insurance taken away or Medicaid or Medicare. If they don't have that, what do they have? Yeah, exactly. Because that is their path is to harm somebody.

And I would never want to see that with a former student or anybody else. The whole situation is really sad that he's off his meds and he's not getting help. And he deserves that help. And if he did harm someone, he would find himself in a situation where he could get therapy. You're right. That's the irony of it. Like a way potentially for some people at that high risk of causing harm that it's illegal for him to be off his medication. Can that start happening? This is why all these.

philosophical conversations are hard and important, which is. You're trying to preserve the liberty of the 99.99% of people who aren't a threat to anyone. And you can't really have laws that are only for this 0.01%. They have to apply to everyone. So you're in this very tricky situation where you either have to... open up the door to take away a ton of people's liberty who do not deserve like saying that the government can tell you what medication you have to take that's a crazy

road to enter onto and then you got to have a category that's so specific that will allow the government to tell you what you have to put in your body which no one would want it's just very hard so then i go i think at the end of the day we all have to be more like the swedes right that are like yes

It gets stolen. That's how life works. It's almost like that's how life is. There's so many of us and we can't really throw people in jail before they've done something. Not in jail. I guess that's my whole point is like we're not throwing him in jail. We're saying, OK, so there are real things. I could help mitigate this danger. Let's...

put those into place. You have Jeffrey Dahmers. There are people that there's no medication or therapy that's going to help. They need to be in prison away from everyone. Of course, it's just a catch-all. You have to wait for them to give you that reason, which no one would want to do. But at the same time... You would lose so much if you could do it the other way.

That's tricky. There's no answer to it necessarily. That was my point is that sometimes there's problems there's not a good answer for. This is kind of a hard question. Thank you guys for letting me on here. Oh, thank you. But I do want to say this. I was a lot. excited to be on here and a little nervous. So I asked AI for pointers and it was so cute.

It said, don't worry, Dax and Monica are some of the easiest and friendliest people to talk to, and their producers and editors are top-notch, so they'll make you sound great. Wow. Is Monica running your AI? Because it sounds like one of us wrote that. I am flattered. and it's creepy. One of my...

mental health is ADHD. So I was super nervous and I'm on medication for it. And I was like, I can't tell a story start to finish. But you guys made it easy. It was great. It was a great story. You'll appreciate this, Marla. I just made an ADHD joke in the previous interview, which is. A substitute was berating the kids and he was swearing at them and yelling.

And then he left the classroom for a while and then they were only third grade. And then two of the kids decided they were going to be the ones that escaped in the hallway and went and told the principal. And I said, two kids with ADHD for sure. I'm like heroes. We need every variety. for when you're in a situation. Definitely. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you for chatting. Have a good rest of your day. All right. You too. Take care. Oh, that story was scary. That was like what lies beneath.

Kind of. Isn't that an alligator or a shark? No. Affair and ghosts and pop outs, obviously. Hello, sir. How do I pronounce your fake name? Talon or Talon? Talon. Talon, like a hawk's Talon? It's actually T-A-L-Y-N. It refers to a sentient ship from the series Farscape. So it was

A ship that could think and had consciousness. And was actually born to a female ship. Wow, I love this. Very specific. And did the ship have character flaws and wisdom? And was it like a multifaceted type of consciousness? It was a tormented ship because it was genetically modified. The original female was a ship that was meant to bring peace. What they did is they mutated the quote unquote fetus to be a warship. Oh, okay.

it was tormented because part of it had a big cannon and it was supposed to go and destroy things but part of it was peaceful so it was like a real character yeah yeah fighting its nature yeah love it so talon where are you i want to be semi-anonymous i'm in western connecticut okay great that's plenty i just like to know the region you know i like to find purchase and some stereotypes before we continue. Okay. So you have a substitute teacher story.

I do. And this story actually takes place in El Paso, Texas. I was in grade school there. This is a long time ago in the early 70s. And this is an important part of the story because things used to be different. Yeah. Tell people how it worked back then. I have some. taste of it in the early 80s, but hit us with how it worked.

the first thing that was interesting is the part of el paso i lived at was the northeast side which was next to the fort bliss which is the fort where they would train people around desert warfare there were a lot of soldiers that lived in northeast el paso so kind of it's a little bit of a rock type of culture. Sure. You could get in a fight at the bar pretty easily.

Guys coming through the window every now and then. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's three pieces of context I want to give around this school to really set the stage. I think these first two are kind of pretty much banned in schools these days. But in the grade school, teachers had paddles that they would...

use for discipline i don't know if you ever had that taste of that but they had paddles and public spankings in retrospect it wasn't to bruise you or to cause damage to you it was more to humiliate you in front of your peers Having the administer of that punishment...

A lot of faith that they're going to stay on the right side of that and just go for humiliation and not also then hurt. You're really entrusting that person a lot. Yeah, to make some judgment calls. It's funny. The coaches would have the paddles that were supposed to be stronger. They'd have holes in them. So they would pretend to hit a little. harder just to increase the accumulation. So that's the first thing. The second thing is that there was a related tradition.

which was on your birthday, the teacher could paddle you gently. The number of years, it wasn't mandatory, but the thrill seekers would be the ones who'd volunteer because they wanted to be up there and get all the attention. And so in our school, the third thing was they wanted kids to be.

They could be kind of rowdy. And so what they did is they had a list of substitutes that they would pick from usually their favorites. And that would be the ones you would always see. So on this day, I was in third grade. and a substitute was needed and they picked a substitute that no one recognized.

It's just somebody kind of out of the blue. She looked like she was maybe in her 50s. She was probably 25 because you were in third grade and everyone seemed 50. You're probably exactly right. She was wearing these polyester pants that were really form-fitting. say kind of the equivalent of like leggings these days and it was like a little bit more common back in the day so it wasn't out of sorts but

Most teachers didn't wear those and she had a quiet demeanor as well. So she gave us assignments and I presume they're the original teacher and we were kind of going through them. and people were behaving well. But at some point during the day, just to get our attention back up, she started telling us that it was her birthday.

And she said that she had heard about this birthday tradition that I talked about. Oh my God. Really quick. We gave Talon so much shit about her age and he might actually know. She might've asked for 50 wax. Oh, you're right. But also then maybe she was really 35 and wanted lots of wax. Yeah. Well, she thought it would be good to follow the tradition. And so she said that the room didn't have a paddle, which.

in retrospect i don't know if that was true or not and that she also didn't want to go out and find one because she didn't want to leave us alone we're third graders we're like 25 kids in the room and so she said she was too old to get the number of wax but she did want the whole class to participate So she said what she was going to do was she was going to walk along the aisles up to each student and then turn around and that each student was to whack her.

on her butt. Oh my God. With her bare hand, smack her ass in tight polyester. She also said that since there was no paddle, a paddle would have been harder, that it was okay for the student to hit her as hard as they wanted to. Oh no.

She's kind of a pedophile. We're laughing. I know. Isn't it crazy? I was immediately thinking like, man, when it's a man and a woman, it's just a completely different scenario in my head. If it's a man doing this, I'm like, we need the cops in there right now and get them out of there. And then this, I'm like, this girl's a little off court. She's a freak. Of course. Yeah. I mean, we're third graders, right? So we're generally.

Not really understanding. There's no World Wide Web. So any kind of stuff you heard about sexual things you heard from your older siblings or cousins or something like that, this activity that was about to happen wasn't anything that was really discussed. Right. It probably sounded fun, actually.

All the kids are like, we have to do this to our substitute now. And in fact, the thrill seeker students, they were looking like they were going to have a great time. Knock her to the ground. Yeah. As promised, she started walking down. She turned around and students would whack her. She had large butt cheeks. So it was really easy to like find your target.

The first students were a little bit shy, but they still did it because they were being told to do it by the teacher. Things changed when she got to the first of the thrill-seeking students. Oh, fuck. This student was one of the most athletic in our grade. We stood up, and the best way I can... describe it was it was like he was up in the pitcher's mound and he started winding his arm up and he put his foot forward and he just

ripped out like a big lap, and it was so loud. Oh, wow. And everyone started laughing and hollering and booting. Yes. The ice was broken, and it was a party. Oh, my God. What was her reaction to that? Did she laugh? out any kind of a moan or anything I thought she was gonna be angry because it was such a big whack and everything or at the very least she was gonna tell people just take it a little bit easy but instead she let out like a little cooing noise

Oh, my God. This is one of the kinkiest, weirdest stories I've ever heard. You could see the energy in the thrill seekers. All of a sudden, they're looking at each other and they're mumbling to each other. And you knew they wanted to outdo the varwa set.

high if someone walked by they could have seen what was going on but she went through everybody did she yell at anyone for being too soft like you call that a smack i don't remember her doing that i do remember people starting to hit her harder because you wanted to be seen in front of the

cool kids is being strong yes paddle that ass really lay into it okay needless to say i don't think this is the first time she ever did this but at the end she went back to her seat and thanked the class for helping her celebrate her birthday oh my god when she goes that was the Best birthday I've ever had in my life. She's going to each class saying it's her birthday. Definitely. She gets spanked every day at work. Yeah. And she loves it. She loves it.

Oh, my God. And they loved it, too. They didn't love it at first, but then they got, like, riled up. I wonder if people felt weird after. I bet they loved it, and then I wonder if anyone was like, that was a little bit weird. Yeah. Do you remember what you were thinking during this?

I was thinking it was very strange. I could feel there was something wrong about it. Okay, yeah. But I still smacked her because I was supposed to smack her. I do remember that I tucked it away in my brain for like a... decade and then it came out one day it's like a source of shame kind of i want to meet her so she's dead well she was 50 in 1970 yeah probably unless she's a centenarian she was wild so

She lived a big life, and I think it's over. We wanted her to come back as kids just because of the spectacle of it all, and maybe to better process it. Yes, we sometimes return to the source of our trauma, looking for answers. Exactly. oh talon i love this story so much i shouldn't but i love it it's very good the epilogue is that apparently some of the parents must have heard something because we never ever ever saw her again oh yeah that's

That's right, Dax. That's the right. Loose lips. Sink ships. Everyone's having a good time. Everyone won. They didn't, though. Talon had to hold this story for 10 years before he was able to talk. Let me ask you, and be dead honest. I don't want to lead the witness. Are you grateful this happened? happen to you or do you wish it hadn't happened?

In retrospect, I'm grateful, partly because I'm here. Yeah, it's a fun story. And also because I think it was just at the verge where you don't really understand things. Like if it would have been a sixth grade class, it would have been really strange, right? It is still so...

strange a bunch of like nine-year-olds like slapping this 50 year old woman's ass i just picture in sixth grade someone got the idea to like booty bumper you know like thrust themselves into her she's done this enough she knows the grade very controlled Weirdly. She has a lot of control over this. I can't believe she could.

Oh, my God. I mean, she knew the tradition. Do you think she climaxes during this? No, later. Later. When she thinks about it, probably, which is creepy. Yeah, it's not appropriate. I tried to remember and I couldn't. I took a bathroom. Thanks for my birthday. That was so fun. I just got to quickly tinkle. Oh my God. That was great. Thank you. Thank you for that awesome story. Yeah, absolutely. I want to shout out my wife. She's been an armchair.

forever. She's got me into Anonymous. She's got my daughter into Anonymous. We love Anonymous. We've heard every single one. I was so excited to have this prompt. I saw it and I thought, no way. You nailed it. Yeah, I think if people wait long enough, there will be a prompt for them. Have a great rest of your summer, Talyn. Okay, thanks. Take care. All right, bye-bye. Who am I going to say it reminds me of? My dad? Yeah, a thousand percent. So much your dad.

like that really playful sense of humor uber intelligent you could tell yeah an observer well yeah he's reading like this science fiction and stuff and then He's giggling at this other thing he's observing. Oh, that makes me happy. No wonder I loved him so much. I really felt like I was talking to Ashok a couple different times. And your dad's a little rascally, which is fun. I've heard that he was a big rascal in his youth.

So bad he had to leave India. He was kicked out. Before he got arrested. Wow. That was fun. I loved that last story. And you're not supposed to love that story, but isn't it funny? It's like right on the verge. It's because it happened so long ago. There's something about it that feels like. It was like 70s. Yeah. She had this all pants. She wore those pants. She wanted thin, tight pants so she could.

Some of these stories are really sick. This is a Jonathan Haidt. I should almost email him about this. No, this is bad. It's not ethically okay. Well, if everyone flourished and no one suffered. No, no, you can't say that. It could have scarred some of the kids.

Like, I really feel bad. I smacked a woman as hard as I could. Yeah, like, that's bad. Like, I was a hero on the day, but on my bike ride home, I was like, I hurt a woman. But she cooed. She cooed. What if it's they hit her as hard as they can. Everyone laughs. liked it and then that person became an abuser oh like they got positive reinforcement for smacking their teacher do you think her name was miss chievous miss chievous

No, I don't think that that guy would think it's okay to then hit women, but I could imagine it forming a kink for him. That's what I'm saying. It could get very complicated. He might have been extra horny for... late 50s S&M trying to recreate this great moment. But especially the S. Sadist, yeah. Yeah, because he got to administer it, so now he has. So don't do this, guys. And then she ran over the doorknob.

I can't get this door open. Oh, I got to fucking shove it. Okay, stop. Okay, all right, all right. I love you. All right, love you. Bye. It's stuck. Oh, it's stuck, it's stuck, it's stuck.

It's open. It's open. I opened it. You made it so much worse. Now it's definitely back. It's open. It's open. Everyone go back to your seat. Don't look at me. It's open. Bye. Do you want to sing a tune or something? No. We don't have a song for this new show so here I go go go we're gonna ask some random questions and with the help of our cherries we'll get some suggestions on the flyer rindish Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. Hi, I'm Monica Lewinsky. Welcome to Reclaiming. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Miley Cyrus, welcome to reclaiming. My 2013 is your 1990.

I lost everything during that time in my personal life because of the choices I was making professionally. Chelsea Handler, welcome to Reclaiming. I did have a teacher who instilled in me that I was going to do something special. And she was like, you're going to have an impact.

Sophia Bush, welcome to Reclaiming. You went all the way. You committed. And if it wasn't for you, you had the courage to tell the truth and get out. And I had to say that to women in my life, and I had to learn how to say it in the mirror to myself. This last decade for me has really been... what I consider my own reclaiming. My own journey, my own reclaiming story is in the bones of this show. Please listen to Reclaiming on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.