Armchair Anonymous: Jury Duty

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous is the name of this show. It'll never get easy for me to say. It's a hard one even though you have experience in the anonymous land. That's right. But I'm supposed to say Alcoholics Anonymous beforehand. So once I'm on one paired word, I'm off.

Also, as I told you earlier, when I see the word jury duty written on a piece of paper, I see Judge Judy. Yeah, I understand that. Because I put the J on the duty. Oh, Judy. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I swapped the D and the J, which would really be Dury Judy. But anyways, I see Judge Judy. Yeah. Should we have her as a prom? Tell us a story about watching Judge Judy. Yeah. My friend has just become a judge. And he was telling me a little bit about it. And I was like.

That sounds really fun. You kind of are Judge Judy. He's like, people are lying to you like you just can't imagine. Yeah. And you kind of got to weed through it and kind of call him out on the lie. yeah and i'm like yeah i think that's what judge judy did well definitely so expertly can we do a judge prompt

Or they're not probably allowed? It would just be my friend. Well, he's probably not allowed. He's only been doing it for a couple months. Okay, you're right. But he already has about 100 stories. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, if you want to see some action, kind of like 7-Eleven, if you want to see some action, become a judge.

It's super easy. This is jury duty. Tell us a crazy jury duty experience. This one's quite safe. And my sweet, sweet longtime friend Tim Lovestead is making an appearance. That's right. Yeah. Friend of the pod. Well, now officially, per your new definition, please enjoy Jury Duty or Judge Judy. We are supported by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online.

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My life, I had a bow. But one thing you gotta know, I'm gonna keep on shining.

Hi. Hello, is this Allie? This is Allie. You sound really good in my headphones. Oh, thank you. Are you feeling that audio, Monica? It does sound nice. Are you in the closet? I am in the closet just for you and Monica. I'm in a closet in Duluth, Georgia. Are you serious? I sure am. So every time I hear you talk about Duluth, I'm like, there's my girl. Wow. Oh, this is so exciting. And I also went to UGA. Oh, my. Did you major in PR?

Theater and PR. I did photojournalism and public health. Nice. So weird combo. Well, you could photograph ill people in the public. You never know how the two will come together. You really can't tell. Allie, did you serve jury duty in Duluth? Yeah, Gwinnett County. I'm already so connected to the story. Do you want to ask her any geography questions like I do?

Well, I did ask for her exact address. And do you want to ask her if she has any of the same favorite restaurants? What about in Athens? Have you been to Last Resort? How could you go to Athens and not go to Last Resort? Have you had the cake, the strawberry cake, my favorite cake in the whole world?

Of course. Or she goes, I'm sitting on one right now. Oh, my God. Cecilia. They have a chicken dish there that is just the best. Wow. This is a thrill. I love this. I hope I run into you next time I'm home. I'm surprised I haven't. Well, I gave you my address. So come on. I'll come stalking. Okay. Set the scene for your jury duty experience.

it involves not only the man on trial, but also a fellow juror. Perfect. It actually happened in December of 2024. So not that long ago. And it was my first time. ever being summoned for jury duty. So I didn't really know what to expect. And as it got closer, friends and family would be like, oh, yeah, I've done it before. And it was for a small claim or a civil dispute, nothing big.

I didn't really think I would get any kind of juicy case, but I reported for jury duty and they said, okay, you're at superior court, which means we try felonies, criminal cases, and monetary cases over $25,000. Oh, yes. And so we get brought into the courtroom and they say, you are being considered for a murder trial.

That's the jackpot. Yes. And I never imagined that I would actually get picked for a murder trial, but here we are. And so it turns out it was for a road rage incident where he shot and killed a man in the middle. the night on his way home from work. Oh my God. Oh boy. And so as we're in jury selection, it gets even more interesting because there's the table with the prosecutors and the table with the defense attorneys asking us the questions and we learn.

that the man sitting at the defense table is not only the attorney, he is also the defendant. He is the man accused. of murder. You're not supposed to do that. Never really works out. He has decided to be his own attorney for a murder trial where he is up for life in prison. Oh my god.

I hate to be rude, but he already showed pretty poor judgment in the road rage incident. It shouldn't be shocking that he's like, I'm definitely representing myself. Now, the attorneys, if I'm to believe movies, right, they go through a whole round of jury selection and they're asking you questions.

trying to find out how biased you may or may not be. Do you remember what questions the first-time lawyer slash defendant asked? It mainly was the prosecutor asking questions, but they did ask every single person. do you think you can be a fair and impartial juror? And someone in my group said, no, I don't think I can. To which this man said, why? And to this man's credit, he looked at him and said, Because I think that anyone who is going to represent themselves in a murder trial.

is stupid and uneducated. Oh, my. Okay. Honesty abound. Yeah, I'm glad he said it. Someone had to say it. He stared at him for a very long time, wrote some notes in his notebook, and said, got it. Thank you. And I was like, oh, my God, I hope this man's OK still. He's also saying that to a murderer. That guy's stupid. Well, I would argue if I'm the prosecutor, I keep that guy. That guy's definitely voting my way. Yeah, but they both have to agree.

I know, but the other guy doesn't even know what he's doing. It might slide through. We'll see. Let's see. He did not make the cut. I just imagine the defendant asking you like, juror number nine, do you have a boyfriend? You really have a picture of him. That's funny. You've been in road rage situations. I could see it not normal. This is like you. I've been watching so much of you, the serial killer show. So maybe I'm just sympathizing. But I think if.

kind of normal-ish person could find themselves in that situation. No one will like this, but this is the truth. I have had the impulse to carry a gun in my car several different times, and I have always decided... You can't have a gun in the car because you have had road rage.

Yeah, that's great. And if, like, someone pulls one on you and now you have one, we're going to the next level. Yeah, but not everyone has your history of thinking about yourself and your issues. And, like, I have road rage, so I guess I won't. Most people aren't doing that.

People don't have a big frontal cortex. They just aren't doing the same reflection that you are. In Georgia, I could see someone carrying a gun and a lot of people carrying guns in their car. Whatever, I love them. I love them. I forgot to mention is that actually we learned throughout the course of the trial is he was previously convicted of murder for a separate road rage incident. So he is not new to this. But he got off. Or served his time. Yeah, I think he did serve some time.

and then it was like shortened, but he is previously convicted of murder. He was like, I have legal experience. I've done this before. Been there, done that. He was feeling quite confident. Also during jury selection, they ask, are you a caregiver to a kid under six?

And if you were selected for this, could you have alternative child care? No one was like, yep, that's me. So we get picked and the bailiff says, okay, this trial is going to date. probably two weeks, and you should expect to be here from eight to five every day, to which this woman starts freaking out. She's like, I can't be here at that time. I have kids. I have to get them to and from school. I got to get them off the school bus.

And they were like, ma'am, we asked you about this and you didn't say anything. And she was in my group of questioning. She had given some interesting answers. So I was very surprised to begin with that she had been picked. But she starts freaking out. And she's like, I need to talk to the judge. And they're like. You can't talk to him. He's left for the day. And she's like, well, I'll just be late. And they're like, ma'am, you cannot be late.

to jury duty, you will be held in contempt of court. So you need to be here. And so they finally say, okay, if you come in the morning, we'll talk to the judge and let him figure this out. So I guess she comes in the morning. Obviously the judge is like, Tough luck. You've been selected for this. We asked you.

you didn't say anything. We're in the room beforehand and she's very upset about it. The other jurors are trying to maybe give her suggestions of, can you call the school, like any way to help her? And she's just beside herself. And so...

The trial gets underway. She is seated next to me throughout the duration of this trial. It starts right off the bat with some really gruesome... images. They're laying out what they think happened in the case. I thought that they would maybe give a warning before they pop up those photos of the crime scene. They do not. They just say, here you go. Here's a dead person. Here's a close-up of the bullet hole. Take it all in. And you're like, it is 9 a.m. I was not prepared for this.

The jury box is seated right next to the prosecutor's table. And so suddenly, this woman...

I'll call her Mary. She leans over and tries to pass the prosecutor a note. Oh, wonderful. The prosecutor is like, I can't take this. And she's like, it's not about the case. It's not about the case. And obviously it's causing a commotion. And so the judge... is like what is happening over here and she's like i just want to give the prosecutor this note it has nothing to do with the case and he's like you can't give

a note to the prosecutor. You can't talk to them. What is it about? And she's like, it's about what we talked about this morning. I want him to advocate on my behalf. And this judge is like, you We'll be on this jury. You will be here every single day from 8 to 5. I don't know what to tell you, but the judge makes the final call. Also, P.S. lady, it does have to do with the case. Yes. She continues to flip out and she kind of just like stares at the floor.

the rest of the day. All the rest of us are taking really vigorous notes. It's like a very complicated case. As the case progresses, I also start to notice that because the defendant was his own attorney, they had to put in some like rules in the courtroom that probably... didn't exist if just a regular attorney was there. Like there's tape on the floor and he couldn't cross it because it would be too close to the jury box. He also...

couldn't go and hand evidence to the witnesses. So this put a lot of extra work on the prosecutor, and he did not have a laptop, and a lot of the evidence was video surveillance footage. And so he would have the prosecutor play these clips. And in court, you have to play it from this timestamp to this timestamp.

And this man either did not understand that or just was not prepared. So he would yell across the courtroom things like, yo, prosecutor, roll the tape. Oh, wow. Okay. Oh, wow. Like kind of at a nightclub. Like a rap situation. I can't roll.

the tape, which one would you like me to play and at what time? And he'd be like, I don't know, dude, from the beginning. And they were like, that's not how this works. We have to take lots of breaks while they figure all this out and some of the clips even after a long break. We were like, what were you supposed to watch in this video?

Case goes on. Day one, they were doing the gruesome stuff, relaying the facts of the case. Next day, it's much more about cell phone tower surveillance, video footage, explaining why they thought this man was in this place at this time. And so we're...

Probably like halfway through the day, Mary leans over to me suddenly and she goes, what happened to the man in the car from yesterday? And I'm kind of confused for a second. What? And I say, they think that that man over there... killed him and we're here to figure out if he did or did not and she goes what She was so hung up on two weeks. She literally didn't see photos of dead people. Did not understand what was happening. She starts crying hysterically. Has to get tissues.

sobbing. Although, okay, I will say, if this is a tactic, that's a brilliant tactic. To get booted from the jury. Yes, because she is unfit to sit on this trial. This is like a hack. What's happening? Wait, who's that guy?

Where am I? So at this point, I'm concerned because she's not paying attention. She doesn't understand what's happening. I will say, I don't think English was her first language. So I was like, okay, she's maybe having trouble understanding what's happening. What are we age-wise for her? She's probably like 40-ish.

Probably really young for Alzheimer's or dementia. I think a lot was with the language barrier. And so I'm... concerned at this point that okay we're gonna get through this whole trial we're gonna get to deliberation and she's not gonna know what has happened for the past two weeks

During our next break, I actually go talk to the bailiff for a second. And I'm just like, hey, this is what happened. I'm a little concerned that she's not understanding what we're doing here. And they're like, we're sorry, but the prosecutors picked her for a reason. So we can't do anything.

about it. We can't bring in an alternate. Why? That's the point of them. Yes. And the alternates are sitting there. You don't know who's an alternate when you're going through. So we all sit and listen and we didn't know until we got to deliberation who the two alternates were. She could have been an alternate.

Let's hope. They're like, you know, if it ends in a mistrial, you could give this feedback to the attorney so they can learn to pick a better juror for next time. But they must have had a reason. So she's here to stay. try to help her as much as you can the rest of the jury are also concerned about her because they've also witnessed all of these things i'm now upset with the

Judge. That person can't be ruling on someone's life. Although, I could see where you could make an argument like, this is the system. It's a jury of your peers. And yeah, these are people that are in the population. That's a real peer. in this community well that's why they do a selection it's to weed out this kind of thing I'm sure he had a full

explanation of why he was certain she would convict. I would have loved to have heard their reasoning for it. As they laid out more and more evidence, it was becoming quite clear that this man was guilty. There wasn't really a question about it. If I was the prosecutor, I would have just had a single question.

on the witness stand and said you already did this once before right and when he said yeah i'd be like yeah i mean come on guys Yeah. Didn't you already do this once? I mean, but now it makes even more sense why he didn't have a lawyer. He's like, I'm not paying for that. Yeah, but even a public defender? Towards the end of this, I was like, I feel like if you're up for life in prison, you should be required to have a lawyer, but...

It's okay, because without this, we wouldn't have gotten so many more great moments. So I appreciate it. Because as the trial went on, his wife came to testify, which was the best. It was like... Bravo came to life in front of us because they clearly had a lot of issues to the point where the judge multiple times had to intervene and say things like, we can't talk about your sex life right now. It's not relevant to the case.

You clearly have some other marital issues, but it's not relevant right now. Please resolve that outside of the courtroom. They got very heated, especially because his main defense was hinging on he thought that his wife. Her sorority sisters and the teachers at their kids' school had worked with the police to switch his cell phone out of the locked evidence box at the police station.

to pin this on him because they wanted his millions and millions of dollars. And his wife was very upset about this, one, because she was like, you're an idiot. And two, at some point... In their relationship, a video had been taken of her in a compromising situation that she was now very upset that the police may have seen. This is juicy. I don't want to say that he didn't have millions, but I highly doubt.

Yeah, he didn't. We finally get time to deliberate. All of us are very nervous that we're going to be there forever because Mary, the juror, had no idea what's been happening. But we decide because he's up for several counts that we're going to go through it one count at a time and just kind of like pulse check. How are we doing? What do we need to discuss? And when it gets to be Mary's turn, we're like, oh my God, what is she going to say?

And she just looks at us and says, I felt his evil spirit. He's guilty. All right. That works for us. We're not going to ask questions. If that's how you want to decide this, be my guest. And so, yep, we ended up convicting him of all. How long did you deliberate? Maybe an hour. There actually ended up being another person that we had to really talk through things with, which was surprising. What if that person was like, well, why would a millionaire kill somebody?

It makes no sense. Yeah, who wouldn't want to stick around on the outside of prison with millions of dollars? To your point, Doc. is a representation of your peers. So it was very interesting to hear people's reasoning for why they came to the conclusion that they did. So yeah, that was my first and only time as a juror. Let's go Gwinnett County. Yeah, way to deliver.

What an exciting trial. I was never registered in Gwinnett County because I registered in Athens during college. And then I... I did get summoned, but by that time I was not living there, so I got out of it. Good job. And then I did serve here in Los Angeles. All my friends, obviously, and I get it. They're just like, I got to get out of it. But it is.

helpful to have real sane people sitting on these juries. Allie, that was a delicious story. What a delight to meet you. Thank you. I figured you'd appreciate the Gwinnett connection, and I know you guys have to go, but I am going to give a shout out to my friend, Tori. She listens to all the artists.

is with me and she's a medical professional. So we definitely talk about all the poop and the blood and all of the craziness. Is Tori a little bit perverted? Like in a good way. She works in orthopedics. So probably she loves to set a bone. Yeah, that's pervert. Ooh, even that phrase. Thank you so much. All right, take care. Whether you're starting or scaling your company's security program, demonstrating top-notch security practices and establishing trust is more important than ever.

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Hello. Is this Lauren? Yes. Hi. Let me just look at your garments. Love to just check in with what kind of garments are hanging. A lot of stripes. Someone loves stripes. I do like a stripe. I'm with you. Where are you in the country? I am in Columbus, Ohio. Oh, wonderful.

That's but a mere three hours from my home. And equidistant to Kings Island and Cedar Point. Wow. How does one choose Sophie's Choice? The Gemini or Devils? What was the great one at Kings Island? Well, the Beast was the OG one. Yep. That goes down in a spiral and hits its max speed. Yeah, what a ride. Okay. You had a jury duty experience.

Please tell us all about it. We're going back to spring of 2013. I was at the time living and working in New York City, and I received a jury summons, but not for normal trial jury. It was for grand jury. which I didn't really know anything about. Fortunately, my first day of orientation required us to watch an hour-long video featuring Sam Watterson. Wow. Wonderful. To explain the inner workings of grand jury duty, which...

essentially meant we were locked into two weeks where we would continue to see case after case. And we would basically vote if the person was going to be indicted and then move on to a trial. Oh, wow. Yeah, like if you lose a grand jury.

appointment, you are now going to officially stand trial, right? That's right. Oh, my God. I had no idea that this was a thing. But only for a certain kind of case. People are deciding whether someone gets a trial. Yeah. Well, you hear it in those stories where it's like a grand jury. Indicted so-and-so, and now they're going to set a trial date. So this was in the Manhattan district courts. So I was downtown in that law and order building. And for the...

Next two weeks, we saw more than 40 cases. So there was everything from burglary to a purse being snatched in Times Square. There was a really juicy prostitution sting in Chinatown that required a translation service to come. so we could hear all the juicy details. This is fun because it's like speed trials, right? They're going to lay out like their five best pieces of evidence and you determine whether that's sufficient.

Exactly. Most of these, it was like in and out. It would be the undercover cop that comes in, shares the testimony. We say yay or nay, and we're on to the next one.

Of all these cases that I saw, there was one that was truly the wildest case I have ever seen. So it... started off in a very weird place and it just did not get any more normal. The attorney comes up to sort of introduce the facts of the case. and says the defendant in this case, his name is Dan Sandler, but he insists on going by Adam Sandler. Oh, perfect start. And we did find out later in the testimony that he did insist on everybody calling him Adam Sandler.

because he was a fan. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Is this a stalking case? Oh, buckle up. So we're here to learn about Dan slash Adam Sandler. And he's not present, by the way, I should say. So the first person to come in and really share her testimony was the primary victim in this case. So she was a middle-aged woman. I thought she looked very teacherly, very wholesome. And we find...

out that she was a top executive at Girl Scouts of America. Their headquarters are in Manhattan. For the next probably four or five hours, she shares her testimony with us where this person... Dan slash Adam Sandler. Let's call him Adam Sandler. Yeah, let's be respectful. Okay, so Adam Sandler had a temp job as like an IT person in the office of Girl Scouts of America. He had gone into her office to fix her computer.

They had chatted. She was friendly to him. He kept finding different reasons to pop into her office over the next couple of weeks. Started asking her. some more romantic questions, and she shut that down. Amidst this escalating, the employer found out that he actually had a criminal record, and so he was let go. But his criminal record actually was a result of him moonlighting as an off-brand Elmo in Times Square. Okay, so he wasn't paying the royalties to be officially representing Elmo.

Absolutely an unlicensed Elmo character. And he had gotten in some hot water for harassing. children and families in Times Square and leveling some boisterous anti-Semitic rants. A racist Elmo. Adam Sandler? He probably doesn't know he's Jewish. Yeah, he definitely doesn't. So he loses his job, and that's actually where things really escalate. He was IT, so he had access to all of her...

contact information, all of her personnel file. He's calling and texting her, leaving her voicemails hundreds of times a day, showing up at her home, making increasingly wild threats. And that's when she starts. saying that she's going to get law enforcement involved. Well, it's at this time that he decides he's really going to go bold and he threatens that he is going to put out a salacious story about Girl Scouts of America, that they are facilitating these very...

on Girl Scout-like arrangements at their camps. Sex trafficking. Exactly. His request, and I did look at some media reporting on this just to get it right. So the specific request was, I want you... the Girl Scouts of America, to hire me for $150,000 a year. Just give me a job. Yeah. Or... A $2 million cash settlement. So that he doesn't reveal the sex. Yeah, even though he's the one on trial. What was so sad was just, we had to listen.

to every single voicemail like they had to enter in every piece of evidence most of the cases we heard were like in and out 10 minutes this we had to sit there for six hours just horrific voicemails that he left this Poor, sweet woman. I just felt so awful for her over the next...

A couple of days, we heard testimony from other colleagues, other people that had been involved in previous incidents that he'd been wrapped up in. But in the end, no surprise, we indicted him. And he did go off to trial. I believe he pleaded out. out for some lesser charge, but I think he did do about a year in prison. In all of our stalker stories, nothing happens to the stalker ever, so I like this. Yeah, voicemails gotta help.

I guess. But even with some of them, they know. They have full evidence. They're just like, until he touches you. Until he kills you. Yeah. It was lucky they got ahead of it. So you didn't get to see Adam Sandler, actually. We didn't get to see him. We just got to hear his very terrifying...

What if he did an Adam Sandler impersonation? I always say a story with Adam Sandler, Elmo, and the Girl Scouts you would think would be more wholesome than this one. Yeah, you're right. That's supposed to add up to something very life-affirming. I hate to say it, but I would love to have an Elmo in Times Square say something worthy of getting punched so that I could punch someone in the Elmo outfit. You want to punch Elmo, but... I want to punch a human Elmo. I understand. In defense.

of righteous causes, of course. I like that. Well, Lauren, it's lovely meeting you. Thanks for sharing that story. I so appreciate the opportunity. This is a blast. Thank you so much. All right. Bye-bye. Bye.

One of the major sim moments of my entire life is that me and my roommate, shout out Rachel, we were summoned at the exact same time for jury duty. Whoa. We were both picked, and our trials were in rooms right next to each other. That is impossible. Isn't it? Yeah, in a city of 8 million people or however many. And so we got to go to lunch together. Oh, that's lovely. They always break at the same time? Yeah. Oh.

Hi. Hi, Stacey. Oh, cute shirt. Thank you. You've augmented your Ted Seeger shirt. It's really cute. Yeah, it's a little bit over the shoulder. It's a little flash dance. Oh, very flash dance. Not even just a little. Where are you at? Specifically, I'm in a nursing room. So I run a childcare center for a corporate client so they can bring their children to the center at their workplace. Oh, lovely.

And what state are you in? Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania. Nice. Beautiful place. Bethlehem, specifically. Home of the peep. Oh, wow. The peep. Oh, the little marshmallow. And how many times have you been to that factory? I don't open up to tours anymore, but I drive past it almost every week. But did you grow up there? You must have gone on field trips. Yes.

We have a giant peep drop at New Year's Eve, too. Oh, fun. That's hilarious. Okay, so where was your jury duty experience? Okay, so do you know the song Allentown by Billy Joel?

Allentown. So this takes place in Allentown, not far from Bethlehem at all. And it was in 2013. And I got a summons for a homicide trial. The kind of heaviness of this. all started to settle in when I realized this defendant had just turned 19. So when it happened, he was 18 and so was the victim and Pennsylvania has the death penalty.

This is a lie. It is. Philosophically, does someone that committed a murder deserve to die? And I'm not a religious person, but I certainly didn't want to be the reason that this young man. is put to death for sure it's a lot of responsibility in addition to that whole circumstance i have really bad panic disorder

especially in places that I think I can't leave. So planes, trains. boats, anywhere I don't have control of the situation, mostly because I have IBS. Oh, wonderful. Interesting. Yeah. When I'm in an airplane or I'm going on a trip, I don't eat at all. before I get on the airplane. And I don't eat at all while I'm on the airplane because I have a fear. And your story is on armchair.

Do not add anything to my fear and my panic. I know it can happen anywhere if you learn one thing from this show. So I was really careful about eating breakfast and making sure that I didn't have anything in my stomach. going into the trial each day. We knew it was going to last. probably a week minimum because it was a homicide trial and it was very heavily publicized. There was press there every day for our small little town. It was a big deal.

I don't know, but a couple days in, I was feeling probably a little bit brave. My anxiety started to just wear down a little bit. And I make these things called sun butter balls. Similar to peanut butter cups, but they're made out of sun butter, which is a sunflower seed spread. And I roll the sun butter up with powdered sugar and I make a ball and I dip it in chocolate and then I freeze it. And it's super yummy. I've had these. They're delish. But you can't eat just one.

So I probably had five or six of them. Of course. And a cup of coffee or two. Sure. We were really loading the chamber. So I head into trial this day and I'm sitting in the juror box. You have to listen to all. the evidence and they had a lot of video testimony sitting there I started to feel that little gurgle that little twinge in my lower belly I'm sitting there and I'm thinking okay

Relax. We're going to break for lunch at some point. You can probably get through this, but it's working its way around. And it's chocolate and sugar and coffee. It's not a good combination. No, no. Even for someone without IBS, this is problematic. My panic settled in. And then with my panic, I start to feel like I can't swallow. Like you're swallowing, but there's no saliva going down. And then I feel like I can't get any breath.

Because then you're feeling like nothing's going into your lungs. And then my stomach's churning. And now I keep swallowing. And it's sticky. And then I'm like, am I breathing? Now I carry around a pulse ox. This little thingy that goes on your finger and that will pull me out of a panic attack right away because it tells me you're breathing. You have plenty of oxygen in your blood. That's a great hack. But I didn't have it this day. So now everything kind of just starts to...

buzz around me. Everything is closing in and I don't know what to do. So I just stick my hand up really high and the lawyer stopped talking. The murder trial stops. The whole courtroom just stops. And the judge looks at me and I'm like, I have to go to the bathroom. So he's like, okay, I guess we're calling a recess. Files everybody out of the courtroom. We have to go all the way back to the deliberation room. This is a nightmare. I am now in full.

blown, panic attack. Plus I have to go to the bathroom. So they lead me into this little room and I'm just sitting there. I do what I have to do and it's not pretty. It's just not good. And then I'm like, I don't want to go back out there. I'm totally mortified. So I just sit there. And you're hoping that the smell will dissipate over time? Is that the goal? I don't know.

of what i'm hoping you just want to disappear just that you'll vanish yeah somehow magically i just know that there's a whole trial that has to take place i mean we are deciding this young man's fate yes diarrhea will come in Literally any time. It knows no stakes. You know, think about the victim's family's out there, the defendant's family's out there, every family's out there, the press is out there. So finally, I just hear this little, like, knock at the door.

And it's the judge. I mean, this nice little old man judge. And he's like, young lady, are you okay? And I was like, I think I'm okay. He's like, we really need to get moving. I'm John Robbins and joining me on How Do You Cope this week is the comedian, writer and broadcaster Pierre Novelli.

The real way you learn to cope is you just have to eat it and suffer. You just have to go, I hate this, but I'll just deal with it. And that is a thing a lot of autistic people learn to do because they don't know that anyone else is not having this experience. So they think, well, we're all here gritting our teeth. because of how much we hate this environment, and they don't realise no one else is. So that's How Do You Cope, with me, John Robbins. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, I'm Alice Levine. And I'm Matt Ford, and we're the hosts of British Scandal. Yes, and you need to strap in for our next series, The Salisbury Poisonings. Key ingredients, a botched assassination, a military-grade nerve agent and an innocent lad's trip to the world-famous Salisbury Cathedral. Who can forget? Seven years ago, former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter...

were poisoned by two Putin goons right here on British soil. Cue a British city on lockdown, one of the single most bizarre TV interviews in British scandal history, and a game of diplomatic cat and mouse between then Prime Minister Theresa May... and still Russian President Vladimir Putin. We often say that when we look back, scandals are just plain weirder than we remember. This is definitely one of those times.

Follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts and binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wondery+. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we are telling the story of one of the most extraordinary women ever to have lived. The OG of...

girl power, the maid of Orléans, Joan of Arc. She did things no woman has ever done, and eventually she was made a saint, all without making it to the age of 20. What do you reckon, Afua? Are you looking forward to Joan of Arc? This is one of my favorites that we've done, Peter. I'm so intrigued and fascinated by people in general who have a strong sense of mission and calling. And then when you add a kind of supernatural element to that, I just can't resist this story.

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So I do. I come out. That whole day was kind of a blur. And the trial progresses. It goes on for about a week. We all have to come to some conclusion and a unanimous conclusion on what we're going to decide for this young man. We decide on third degree murder. So no intent. Because he was having an altercation with his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend. He fired at the car with a gun during altercation.

The bullet went through the car, killed this other young man. So we really decided he wasn't going to get the death penalty. The trial ends and they have to escort you. to the parking garage by a police escort because they don't want you in the mix of the press or to be seen by any families. So it just happened during this jury.

duty that I was placed on the jury with one of my family's mothers. So one of the children that I take care of, she was on the jury with me. So we get out to the parking garage, the police escort out there. And she's like, oh my God. I forgot my paperwork for work. And I was like, well, you don't really need it. It's fine. She said, no, I'm not going to get credit for jury duty. We have to head back to the courthouse.

to get my paperwork. So I'm like all dramatic. And I'm like, well, we can't go in there looking like we left because they're going to know we were on the jury. So you take down your hair, I'll mess up my hair. We'll change jackets. We'll go. So we have to kind of sneak back into the courthouse to get back to the deliberation room to get her paperwork. We get her paperwork and we decide we're going to leave the back way of the courthouse.

We come around the corner and the courthouse is connected to the coroner's office back then. It's not anymore. And there's this man smoking a cigarette leaning against the courthouse. And he looks at me. I look at him and he's like, hey, Stacy. And I'm like, oh, hey. And we realized we went to high school together. So we were sitting there, we're chit-chatting, we catch up, we go our separate ways.

And he messages me a couple days later on Facebook. And we end up dating. And we end up getting engaged. Oh, my God. Me cute. Is he a corner? He was for many years. Yes. We were together for five years. It was lovely. We are no longer together, but I met my current boyfriend through him and we've been together for a couple of years and very, very happy. So in a sense, I always say I've met my current love.

Through him and through the whole homicide trial. Oh, my God. The story has it all. Well, it's rare that you get an unauthorized evacuation, jury duty, and a meet queue. Murder. And a murder and a corner all in one. story. In a disguise. Espionage. We really got it all. Wow. I was never on another homicide trial again. I think I would do better nowadays. Have you had any curiosity about tracking whether or not that kid was released?

looked up the case yesterday because when it was going on they called it The Danny versus Manny case, because one of the young adults was named Danny, one was named Manny. I could only find the article from 2013, which said that he was sentenced 21 to 40 years. So I would have to do a little bit more digging to see what happened to him. I hate that story. Me too. Fucking 18. It's just such a hard decision. Because if it was something like torture or pedophile, I don't know. I think my.

decision would be different, but you have to kind of figure out if he really meant to murder somebody or if it was an accident. Or if he's a threat to others. And this is why a jury of your peers is a genius invention, because... They will mid out justice sometimes in between the letter of the law, which is appropriate. You know, if it's just by the book.

And it's prosecutors and defendants. Juries can have a way of finding the best version of justice, I think. Well, I will say also juries don't have reputations to uphold. Yeah, and you're really supposed to look at the evidence. They just kept saying, don't bring your emotion into it. it. When I went back to look at the article, it said we had deliberated.

so much longer than they expected. And I remember because we could not all agree. Oh, wow. Well, Stacey, it's just lovely meeting you. Yeah. Yeah, we appreciate that story. My daughter, Anna, really wanted to be here because she is an expert. Tech, and she had a case the other day.

involving a cucumber that she was so excited to share with you. She ended up not being able to be here, but I said I would make sure I told her. What a gift. I just love hearing that. Yeah, I love hearing about a cucumber lodged. And then my other two kids, Mia and Jack, and then my boyfriend, Brian. So I said I would give them all a shout out to all. Okay. Well, wonderful. So nice meeting you, Stacey. Nice to see you. Okay. Take care.

Did you make the connection of jury duty? D-O-O-D-I-E. Yeah, jury duty. Tim Lovestead. Oh, exciting.

Oh, boy. Look at this. Really good to see you guys. Okay, so for the listening audience, we're joined now by one of my very first friends in Los Angeles, the esteemed Tim Lovestead. We went through the groundlings together. We've done every darn thing together, haven't we? We've done a lot. Some of it we can't talk about. You know what I probably miss the most is how much you and I drove around in your Tacoma pickup truck.

in Hollywood and just interacted with people. It was like friendly heckling. Hecklers that are like funny and have a good spirit. Yeah, we would always compliment people, but in a very crass way. So like we would say like, hey, sweet fucking hat.

Right, it's a compliment, but there was swearing. An aggressive compliment. Yes, and a lot of shouting because I have a very loud voice, so it kind of would startle them. Okay, so Tim, I don't even know if I knew you had a jury duty story, but maybe as you'll tell it, I'll remember. So as Dax points out, I worked in the grocery industry for a long time. Oh, yeah. To bring listeners up to date, I often tell the story of you blowing out your ACL while cash registering. By standing.

I was on light duty for like three months. I was just checking like, hi, how are you today? Beep, beep. And I was like, ah! Nothing. Some sort of tendon rupture. It's one of the worst ACL stories I've ever heard. It's like the only thing that could be taught by a guy who was taking a nap and fucking woke up because it snapped. 100%. But they were great about it.

jury duty. So a lot of us, when you would get jury duty, it was like, oh, I'm going to take it. Because back then you would sit around for three or four days until you got on a trial and you got your full pay. So for us, it was like, why not go to jury duty? So I'm on jury duty. And back then... It was a big room full of people. And as you could probably imagine, it's a real mixed bag. On my first day, they called.

a whole group of people, maybe 40 of us. And we went into a big room and it was a courtroom, but it looked like a bigger holding room. And they handed out this leaflet, almost like a workbook you'd get at school. And each one of us got one. And then a clerk of the court stood up and said, this you need to fill out now. You cannot discuss it with anyone in the room, what you're filling.

out what your answers are. You're to return it directly on your way out the door. And we'll see you tomorrow at 7am. It was probably like 75 questions. The questions were interesting too, because it would be like, is anyone in law enforcement in your family? Which is a question you would expect to get. But then they would be like.

Have you ever visited Northridge, California? Oh, I was like, yeah, I live right there. Like, that's my mall. Like, what are we talking about? So the questions would be either very broad or super specific. It would be like, have you ever. heard of anyone ever hiring someone to kill their spouse. Do you think Back in Black is the best ACDC song? Is Eddie Van Halen overrated? So it's super specific. So anyway, we come back at 7 a.m.

and we can't really talk to each other because we don't know what we're talking about. They called 14 of us and they went into a courtroom. We still don't know what this case is. Maybe it's an hour and a half later, they call another 10 and I'm in that next 10. They had warned us when they gave us this workbook that this case we could be sequestered for up to three months. Oh my God. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. Even if you love the setup by getting paid from.

I mean, that's too much for me. I'm probably thinking of ways I could get myself out of it. But also you could be on Robert Durst's case. Like you could be part of like an OJ. Landmark. Yeah. So wait, the three months didn't scare you. You were like, absolutely. I want to be here the whole year. Okay, I get to stay at a hotel.

I get paid my full run. Tim, how old were you at the time? I want to say 25. Okay. A hotel sounds awesome. And also I'm always about the story. Like there's going to be a good story out of this. Yeah. Which may or may not be true as we go along. Anyway.

They call me into the room and I'm excited to be there. I've got my backpack with like the stuff that I was reading. I have snacks. I might have a cold drink. And I walk in very confidently and sit down. I looked and I knew this woman that was on trial because I used to watch the news rabidly. And I knew right away that this was, I can say her name because she's in prison, Mary Ellen Samuels. And her case involved her hiring a guy to kill her husband, which he did.

And then she hired a guy to kill the guy that had killed her husband. So it was a double murder. Black Widow. Well, you know, they called her the Green Widow. Oh! Ew, why? Because after her husband died, the famous picture when the case... went to trial was her bathing in hundred dollar bills in las vegas oh did he have some insurance money

Yes, insurance and pension money. And so I knew right away, I'm like, Northridge, that's where it happened. Like I was locked in. But more than anything, I didn't want to look nervous. You know that previous knowledge of the case is likely to get you booted off. off the jury, right? Or that's my understanding. So are you going into this going like, I'm going to lie my ass off and just say, I've never heard of her? No, because I think this was obviously pre-OJ, but they knew.

that people knew, especially in the LA area. I think some of the questions involved like, How much do you watch local news? And you're like, all of it. Five, six, seven, 30. I'm all over it. So I'm sitting there. They've got 12 up there and two alternates. And they'll go, juror number one, you used to work for this cleaning company.

Yes, I did. Okay, we'd like to excuse that juror. For whatever reason, they're popping people on and off. So they call my number to go up there. Oh my God, that's so scary. So I go up into the jury box and I shit you not. I'm as comfortable as someone could be. I put my backpack down. I look around. Hey, okay. Yeah. Hi. You would think I was at a barbecue. I was so excited. Oh, you're eight. I'm nine. That's fun. And so I sit down.

And the prosecuting attorney goes, whatever my number was, juror 75. You look very comfortable up there. I said, yeah, yeah, I do. She goes, we'd like to excuse juror 75. Oh, fuck that. Oh, no. For being too comfortable. That's so sad.

She just doesn't want that guy persuading people on her jury. You were too Boy Scout-y. Too excited and literally picked up my backpack and looked around. I was pissed off. Yeah, like these people, you're going to miss me when I'm gone. So. I left and back then you just get thrown back in the pool.

You look like a jerk coming back like, yeah, I didn't get on a case. Guys, don't get comfortable. It's like an audition. They give you notes. You have to go and think on them, come back. Also in my head, I'm thinking, well, that was it. That was going to be awesome.

This is your last day of jury duty. So you were going to get on the hotel room circuit and you blew it. Had you packed an overnight bag? Like, were you so certain you might be sleeping at a hotel that you brought your swimsuit with you that day? Honestly, this is so embarrassing. I was like... Do I still have to pay rent at my apartment? Is there something I can work out with the judge? So I get on this next jury thing and it's much smaller. We sit down, there's 12 of us, two alternates.

The prosecuting attorney, they said, do you have any objections? They may have asked us a couple of questions, but it was quick. It was like, okay, trial starts tomorrow. So we show up, it's a criminal case. And this guy, it doesn't look like he got those clothes from home.

his suit. It looks like he might still be incarcerated. You're not supposed to think that, but we could all sort of see. And this guy was staring at all of us like he wanted to kill us. He was mad dog in the jury. Not a great strategy. So we're on the jury. And this case involves this guy who was a burglar who went into houses in Van Nuys and creeped in people's windows and stole jewelry. And then we go through residents telling their show, oh, I saw a hand come in and an orange van drove away.

So we're all writing it down. Side note, don't take an orange van to a crime. It's so memorable. Shaggy and Scooby were hanging out the side. So the next day we come in and there's a guy in an orange jumpsuit. in the witness stand. And he's looking all the women who just happened to be in the front row of the jury box. He's looking them all up and down.

The judge says, okay, we're going to start the trial. And he says to this guy in the jail outfit, you promised to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So I hope you got, and he goes, fuck no. Oh, Great. And all of us are like, what do we do now? So the judge says we'd like to dismiss the jury. We come back in and the judge says, you're to ignore what you just saw.

Don't let it in your mind. So the clerk comes up and says, do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, but nothing but the truth? And he goes, fuck no. Are we allowed to remember that one? We leave. Meanwhile, every time he says, fuck no, he walks by the jury box and he's looking at these women. It's crazy. So we come back in now after the second time, the judge says, you're to ignore.

everything you saw. He's not here. He's not in the room. So we go on with the trial and there's probably 15 counts against this guy on burglary. Three of them rock solid. Fingerprint, saw the guy, saw his van.

Is that your van? Yes, it is. The whole thing. So we go in the jury room. The first three are very easy. But the last 12, it's like they just threw them in there. There was no evidence. There was no nothing. But all the women are like, no. Fuck that guy. He's going away for a long time. I don't care if there was no evidence. We spent all of a day talking. This isn't what the case is about. It has to be based on the evidence.

Were you taking a lead role in that, be honest, at 25? No, there was a really good foreman. It was this guy who was like a construction guy, and he had his own construction company. So I think he was used to that sort of... teamwork thing i was just popping in when i could but not really too much so we go out we're ready with our verdict he's guilty on three counts

They escort the guy out. And the lead detective comes over and talks to us and says, what happened on those other counts? At that point, we had developed our story. Like there was no evidence. The evidence wasn't good. You guys just threw him in there. And the guy goes, yeah, that's because it was that guy's van. And we basically seized his van illegally. All the evidence was illegal, so we couldn't present it here.

But he's very much guilty of those other 12 counts. And basically they knew they couldn't present it because that guy in the orange jumpsuit was in prison and felt wronged by the bad evidence. And that was still pending. He basically had come out. to show his friend, I'll never testify against you. And it's a nice drive out to Van Nuys and not being in prison all day. Yeah.

Whoa. All the women on the jury, of course, were like, see, we should have just prosecuted him. Women are always right at the end of the day. I think that's the lesson. You did the right thing. They did not follow protocol. Yeah, but if I had gotten on that first case. I know. Oh boy. How long did that trial end up going? Did you like follow that at all? I did. It was three months and then she did get two life sentences and she's got the death penalty. She did.

She's still alive. The Green Widow. They send its people to death row, but no one ever gets killed in California. I didn't know we had it anymore. I don't know if we do anymore, but mostly... People get sentenced there and then it doesn't even happen. Wow. Yeah, she's still the Green Widow. I'm dying to see that photo of her swimming around in some cash. Was it televised, that one?

No, obviously it was before OJ and all those, but it was pretty famous. Wow, so you just were going as many times as you could because... You were getting out of work. Yeah. And I was like, okay, so I got to sit in this room and read three or four days and they paid you and it wasn't too bad. It's a good attitude to have. Well, Lovestead, I love you. I love you guys. I do want to say today is Vinny's graduation day.

That's my son, Vinny. He's an avid listener of just Armchair Anonymous. That's how it is. He don't want to fuck with the feelings, just the diarrhea. Yes. All right. So fun to have you as a guest. Thank you for all you do. I'll see you at the next roller skating. event oh yes you will and thank mallory for letting us commandeer his workspace i will for sure all right be well

Well, sit on the, ew, oh. Oh, that's her. That's her. That's her and the money. She seems cool. She seems happy. I could see wanting that photo, but I would be... And this is so inconsistent with me putting my shoes on everything, but I wouldn't want all those dollar bills on my skin. I don't think you're thinking of that when you're doing what she's doing. No. You're not worried about germs. No. It's on her vagina.

It is, yeah. I mean, how much would it cost you? What's the price tag the next time you pee to wipe with a dollar bill? Oh. Yeah. So there's like wetness. The real number. The real number. Wife with it once. Or until dry. They're not very absorbent. I do it for $5,000.

Now really think of it. You grab the dollar bill. Imagine holding this dollar bill. Do I see stuff on it? Yeah, it's a fucking old ad. You got it from 7-Eleven. It's changed from buying a pack of cigarettes. Maybe even worse. Maybe it came out of the tip jar.

But then I'm like, how much does it cost to get a disease? Yes, that's pretty much what you're... Really? Or minimally a UTI. Yeah, okay. So what I would definitely do is immediately start taking cranberry pills and tell my doctor, like, I'm probably going to need to get on a nana. And just wiped with a wand. Yeah. Just wiped from something out of the tip jar. But don't worry. I did get. 5K. Let's go. Yeah. I think that's light.

I think you're saying 5K and then if I handed you a dollar bill and sent you on your way, you wouldn't do it. But I think actually, because I want to be like, actually, I think it's 50. 50 bucks or 50K? Okay. But I don't. I think it's less. I think you'd be surprised. Oh, I like it. I like this side of you. The scrappy side. Okay. How about 10,000? Okay. So I can go on like a fun shopping spree.

Now, if I were in my 20s and I was listening to this, I would be like. 50 bucks. Guys, I would eat a dollar bill for 100 bucks. I know. And swallow it. Well, I'm sorry. You're putting me in this position. No, I know. If you ask me, I'm also screwed. It's how much would you pay for maybe AIDS? Well, I don't think AIDS can live on a dollar. But a UTI for sure. All right. All right. Love you. Love you. Do you want to sing a tune or something or a theme song? Oh, okay, great.

We'll get some suggestions on the flyer. follow armchair expert on the wondry app amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

This is Nick. And this is Jack. We're best friends, ex-finance guys, and resident 90s experts. And every week on our podcast, The Best Idea Yet, we're bringing you the untold stories behind your favorite products. For instance, can you guess which billion-dollar...

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