Alicyn
Welcome to Alicyn's Wonderland. I'm your host, Alicyn Packard. Join us as we journey through the looking glass and down the rabbit hole into the wild and wonderful world of animation and video games. Hey, do a girl a favor, and please subscribe to this podcast and go on iTunes and leave us a good review. If you like the show, please help spread the word it really helps us to get heard by more people. Thanks so much.
Jason
This session was generously hosted by Alicyn Packard, who is a veteran voice actor lending her voice to a myriad of projects for television, radio, film and web. She has been nominated for four voice Arts Awards for Excellence in voiceover and a BTVA Award for the Best Female Lead Vocal Performance, and she could be heard daily bringing to life over a dozen popular animated characters including the Nickelodeon reboot of Rugrats, as well as the Tom and Jerry show, seasons one of two of the hit Disney XD series and theatrical movie Yokai Watch, and many, many more. There's a long list of cartoons that she has lent her voice to enjoy the session.
Alicyn
Thank you so much, Jason, for the warm introduction. It is nice to see you guys. I want to introduce both MikeHollingsworth and Pete Michels. Mike is the supervising director of Bojack Horseman Season One, of Touka and Birdy and now an executive producer over at Netflix animation. You can find him on Instagram at at @stufffedanimals, with three F's. And Pete Michels is the supervising director of season one and two of Rick and Morty, the supervising director of Family Guy and a director in that seminal first 10 seasons of The Simpsons.
All right, yay. Well, welcome to So You Failed at Cartooning: Settling For A Career In Animation. Ironic title, ironic tears.
Mike Hollingsworth
Pete, tell me about your use of the words: seminal first 10 seasons? It's such a weird word.
Pete Michels
That's an... Yeah, I guess it's people keep referring to those first ten seasons. Those are like good years. Oh, thank you. But I mean, if the show wasn't good, it still wouldn't be in its 35th year or whatever it is, or 45th y ear. So yeah, I take that as a compliment. And I guess that's those are the formative years, you know, like yours, you you you look back in those fondly. And I still do.
Alicyn
You raised him, you know, he's not a delinquent. You know, you got him out the door. And...
Mike Hollingsworth
I just wanted to bring attention to I wrote Pete's bio. And once I heard the word seminal first 10 years being used, I was like, This is not a word to be used in this context. This is a clunky word. And also just want to get to be laid out in advance like there is an alpha and a beta in this relationship with Pete. Pete being the alpha and maybe the one who raised us.
Pete Michels
I thought you were the alpha?
Mike Hollingsworth
No I'm not the alpha!
you direct it on several seasons of TV show.
Pete Michels
Every every seminal series was a seminal season of my seminal career.
Alicyn
Wow. So you guys both?
Pete Michels
I own 10% of that word. So every time Mike uses it, I get paid.
Alicyn
Well, that is seminal. So back to us starting, now, when did you both first develop an interest in cartooning? Was that from a very early age?
Pete Michels
Yeah, yeah, I guess it was. I used to draw Charlie Brown and Snoopy all the time. And I remember for Christmas, it was before kindergarten, even I got a Charlie Brown dictionary. And I would draw all, every picture in that dictionary. And that was Yeah, I was always interested in it.
Alicyn
Well, what about you, Mike?
Mike Hollingsworth
Yeah, I actually I have two books here. So got it. I had I had the opportunity to meet Charles Schultz. And I learned how to draw from these two books. This Chuck and Muck and Snoopy Festival, and this Snoopy festival. And you can see they're both just absolutely beaten up from me just tracing in them and drawing in them. And I actually went and met Charles Schultz and out of all the things that could happen autograph, I had him autograph this this bank banged up beat up book. That's so dog eared and and I had this book that's all taped together. I had Chuck Jones sign this book. It says it's a it says For Mike Chuck Jones who was also tattered and torn but yeah, I mean, this book is it's held to get every page is like held together with tape.
Pete Michels
Literally with tape?
Mike Hollingsworth
Yes.
Alicyn
Did you have any role models in in real life as well? Or was it more stuff that you you found from reading comics from watching comics and reading comics?
Mike Hollingsworth
Like our cartoonists are artists that we know. Yeah. We teachers are teaching a mic. Dad was just in love with Mad Magazine, he could draw those mad characters. And you know, my dad was a bus driver, but he just loved Mac magazine and he would doodle those little like Sergio are bonus characters. And then through the NCS, I actually got to meet and take a picture with Sergio our bonus, had a NCS holiday party and I, you know, my phone, but I ran out of that party with my phone up in my hand, like I had the golden ticket and emailed it to my father. It really blew him away that somehow through some twist of fate, a child that he sired met this man who he cared about so much in so much joy. Yeah, that my dad kind of taught me and my brother how to draw, drawing those little Mad characters.
Pete Michels
Yeah, I guess I guess my my hero was, I mean, I always, you know, watch all the Warner Brothers and Chuck Jones Tex Avery stuff, but, but yeah, I think it was Charles Schulz, you know, because of Peanuts. And I was a big huge fan. And also, you know, I was big fan of Beetle Bailey. Other kids are reading Spider Man and Hulk comics and Captain America and Thor. I'm reading Beetle Bailey. You know, it's a comic books. I'm like, Oh, yeah.
But yeah, Charles Schultz was probably my biggest influence. And, you know, when people ask today, like, well, what you know what advice you my son is, is wants to be a cartoon. But if I see like, my biggest thing is pay attention in writing class because, you know, I always thought, Oh, I just want to draw silly pictures. I want to be I want to be like Charles Schultz, but I didn't think to later. Oh, he also wrote all you know, 40 years of comic strips and all the peanut specials in the movies. He wrote the Great Pumpkin, he wrote the the Christmas show, he wrote all that as well as drawing. So I should have paid more attention to writing crap, classic creative writing. You further along in my writing career right now.
Mike Hollingsworth
Every animation director is angry writer. I mean, especially because as Pete and I have done so much. Because to write an episode of animation is actually difficult. No disrespect to the writers, but you only really only when the rubber hits the road, do you go? Do... does it prove out in scripts that not everything works out? And then the the people who fix that are the animation directors that storyboard directors. And while you're doing that, you're like, these, these goddamn writers were in or in their ivory towers. Meanwhile, they're turning these broken scripts that I have to fix with my writing abilities.
Pete Michels
Meanwhile, every animator in the world is like, Oh, these LA animation directors in their ivory towers make make their storyboards work, and we just take it out in the next.
Alicyn
Yeah. So then starting in cartoon and how did you flesh out your your writing skills? Once you're already working in cartooning? Was that just practice? Or did you study?
Mike Hollingsworth
I do. Remember, I had a comic strip in the college paper.
Alicyn
Oh, wow.
Mike Hollingsworth
And I was so I was in the journalism class, because that's where the comic or the college comic strip artist was housed. And there was like a year end review where the journalism teacher had to talk to each member of the paper and, and give them an assessment of their abilities. And he said, you know, Mike, I think what you need is life experiences. What do you mean, I asked. I could tell from your comic strip that you really don't you don't really get your head wrapped around the world too. Well,
Pete Michels
You got to get out more. You got to get out more.
Mike Hollingsworth
Well, but I always remembered it and I took it to heart. Yeah, so
Alicyn
did did what you both study did did you go to college? And did that incorporate into your start as a cartoonist?
Pete Michels
Directly? Yeah, I mean, I studied illustration and design graduate.
Alicyn
Oh wow.
Pete Michels
Yeah, I guess as I got older, and I had a really amazing art teacher in high schools, like he was also a football coach, and he was a really big guy and just wouldn't wouldn't be the guy that you think, oh, that's the sensitive art teacher in school. He was like, you know, he was huge, big guy. He played offensive line. But he had he really taught me that our art can be cool. You know, he's like, Hey, you can do all this cool stuff.
But going because I kind of got away from I didn't think I would be able to do animation of cartoons. I thought, well, you know, I grew up outside of New York City that well, everything there. It's all printed media and and, you know, I'll probably end up doing that. So I studied illustration, but I took the the very last year they were the last class I took it took an animation class and in that textbook, there was a list of animation schools about well, yeah, I'm not doing any thing I'm graduating, I don't know what to do. So, sure, I'll apply to Cal Arts at UCLA, and I got into UCLA in the graduate animation program. Alright, I'll move to LA for a couple of years. And -
Alicyn
Wow.
Pete Michels
A few years later, here I am, so...
Mike Hollingsworth
Hey, can I ask you a question up? In that high school art class, when, when you would not get perspective, the perspective of an object quite right with your teacher tell you to go run 10 laps?
Pete Michels
Oh, yeah, yeah, I was really in shape. After two years of those first two years of portfolio preparation class. I was really
Mike Hollingsworth
If you did do an amazing painting when he dumped a bucket of Gatorade.
Pete Michels
No, we had to do that to him because he was the coach. Actually, we call him coach is Coach Conrad. Yeah. Michael Conrad.
Alicyn
Oh, wow. That's amazing.
Pete Michels
And, you know, it's funny, too, when he took over as like, the, the art department in my high school in a small town, you know, in the suburbs. And when he took before he took over, everybody looked at art classes, like, oh, that's just where you go to like to, you know, to sleep and you know, you can like sneak out and smoke and no one cares. But when he took over all sudden, those guys start stopped showing up like, Oh, he's actually gonna make it work. So I think he instilled kind of a work ethic and everybody to like, no, if you want to get good, you got to work at it. And and he's gonna make you work.
Alicyn
Yeah, that's so interesting. Not everybody gets that kind of opportunity to really dive in and dedicate a good chunk of their time to that with with regular practice. So then how are you? How are you incorporating cartooning into your life? Now? Are you both actively cartooning these days?
Pete Michels
Well, do you mean cartoony like, like, like comics and print or other than?
Alicyn
Yeah, comics print? I know, Mike, you do some stuff. Some digital stuff.
Mike Hollingsworth
Yeah, I was doing little animated. Like single panel cartoons for a while called Stufffed Animals. It's why my Instagram is called @stufffedanimals. And finding joy in math. Like, sometimes working in animation can be a grind that you're, you're, you know, even if you get nine ideas into the show, the one that didn't make it in, kind of gets caught in your craw. Like, they don't understand the brilliance of that fart joke.
Pete Michels
Yeah.
Mike Hollingsworth
So I did. Yeah, I started just making my own little cartoons as as a as a grown artist, like not a creative outlet. I would say in any way I'm aspiring anymore. There's no spotter left and
Pete Michels
Doodles of people on the Zoom call. So be careful. If you see if you catch him doodling he's he's drawing us.
Mike Hollingsworth
Really, I've had a lot over the pandemic. My feet and legs have been attacked by a lot of animals. I'm a tall man, I'm six, seven in heels. And I have I got stung by a bee in my calf. And then my whole leg got swollen. And I I also got stung by a stingray. So in my work Zoom calls, I end up talking about my foot ailments quite a bit. And speaking of caricatures during these meetings, my line producer was saying they're like, oh, what's going on with your feet this week, Mike? And I'm like, and she's like, No, please no more about the feet. I don't want to hear about the feet. I don't talk about the feet. And while I was in the meeting, I just started drawing with a sharpie marker, a face on the bottom of my foot. So that when that I said, Oh, I think one more point at the end of the Zoom meeting. I think one more person has something to say before we go and I lifted my foot up. I was like, "Hi I'm Mike's foot! And I have something to say about this meeting." She didn't seem happy.
Pete Michels
But that's the kind of stuff you can do in animation meetings.
Alicyn
Oh, that's so interesting.
Mike Hollingsworth
There may have been a complaint lodged with HR that's still working its way to HR soon.
Pete Michels
Yeah.
Alicyn
So did you both intend then to have careers as cartoonists? Or was it pretty early on that you decided animation was the path you want it to take? It kind
Pete Michels
of went back and forth. Man when I was younger, really young. I thought that's what I wanted to do. But then as I got older, you know, I guess you reality creeps, I was like, well, there's no way I'm going to be able to do that I have to you know live in Los Angeles and have to do all these other things.
And, but it just kind of, you know, I think it was also in the right place at the right time. Like when I got out of UCLA finished up everything. The Simpsons was hiring and it was okay. I'll take a test and try that and I don't never thought I'd actually be able to do it because I looked around me and even when I did get hired, I looked around me as everybody is so much better than me. I'm out of my league.
This is you know, I'm gonna, this is embarrassing these these, everybody here is like, miles ahead of me, but you know, just you just stick to it and you ask questions and keep trying. And I still think everybody's, you know, miles and miles ahead. I look at some storyboards. I'm like, wow, amazing fight scene. I couldn't do that.
Alicyn
So was this instance your first job in animation?
Pete Michels
Yeah, no. I had little tiny jobs like you know, doing in betweens for $20 a foot here and there and, and you know...
Mike Hollingsworth
Did you say $20 a foot?
Pete Michels
Does your foot have someone say about that? $20 and I did, I did work I met a lot of people on I did this like, small freelance job for Mattel. It was like a CNA video phone that we did it all backwards. We drew the pictures first and then timed it. It was completely backwards. But there was we actually paid itself for that. So it was just like that. I guess. I guess that would be my first real animation job. But that was, you know, a month or two. But the first real everyday salary job was the Simpsons. Yeah.
Alicyn
That - Yeah. What a great opportunity.
Pete Michels
Yep. Right place, the right time.
Alicyn
Right Place Right Time. And what about you, Mike? Did you start off wanting to be a cartoonist?
Mike Hollingsworth
Yeah, I actually submitted I one of my first jobs was working as a building maintenance slash just kind of building monitor for this community center in the town, I grew up in Newark. And in the Bay Area, and I had access, I would be the only person there at night and I had access to the copy machine. Can I just ran off, I just would draw so many comics and just run off endless copies.
Pete Michels
And also copies of your foot, I'm sure there was a foot in there on the...
Mike Hollingsworth
During that period, I submitted like comic strips to so many syndicates like wanting to, to be a syndicated cartoonist, and not, you know, like, knowing, but not really, really fully grasping that that's like, almost went like winning the lottery. That, you know, at that time, like the chance that I would have been picked up for that or whatever. And also, I look back at those comics, and they're terrible. But, uh, but I did just keep drawing comic strips. And that's pretty much all I wanted to do. I moved to LA and I was doing stand up. But also still drawing comics.
And I did start drawing them on occasion for the LA Weekly. And just putting them in a ton of periodicals, like alternative, I would go to Tower Records, and just sit there with a notebook and write down the address of every punk rock magazine, and then just submit comics to all of them. And I was in a lot of them and do a pretty good and alternative cartoon cartoony and completely broke. They did not pay any money or doing Yeah, and it was actually pretty time consuming to do like to kind of do all the mailing and emailing. That's why you kind of give your money to a syndicate because you kind of just want to draw the but after a while I was like, I'm like spending so much money.
Like, there's so much time like conversing in emailing with all of these are flung magazines, who aren't even really set up for cartooning and are kind of doing it because they think it might be funnier. They liked the comic. But so it was always like explaining to them and then you get the comic, then they send you a copy of the magazine that you were in and inevitably be the bane of the existence of any young cartoonists is that they would they would take your comic and squish it into the spot it's all your all the all of your work is squished. I thought that that was okay. When it is a crime.
Pete Michels
Some states but you get did you get paid for those? Not much probably
Mike Hollingsworth
I would get paid like some but I was really just doing it. I had the attitude that I was doing it for the ink like I was had the attitude that I wanted just all of these tear sheets, like and then when I started working in animation when I decided to move into animation. In my portfolio, were those pages from the LA Weekly of my comics, and the people who I was sending them to were it kind of impressed like, Oh, you did comics for LA Weekly. I was like, yeah, yeah, I do comics with LA Weekly. They printed like three of my comics over time for like six years. But nonetheless, I had the ink. I had the ink on paper.
And they would be like oh cool because they were in LA and They all knew that you know, Matt Groening got his was notice from the LA Weekly and all of these really good Tony millionaire and actually my position was I hope this isn't like rude to say or whatever but I think it's what kind of what his comic is about. This Tony Millionaire who drew this Mackey's comic, which I loved it was a comic about a, an alcoholic bird and I think this Tony millionaire also enjoyed sip and basically is the character whenever he missed a deadline because he was too drunk or get it together in time. They would run one of my comics so during that six year period, he missed like six deadlines, or no you missed like four deadlines. And then I and then I got to fill this spot.
Pete Michels
That was your four tear sheets.
Mike Hollingsworth
Yes, so I should have actually if I was smarter at that time, I would have been more actively trying to get him drunk. Yeah, right away into his life and kind of like, be like, you can have one more Tony. Like it's yet
Pete Michels
there. There is a lot of drinking going on and cartoons though. Hmm. And why do you think that is a stress and pressure making funny thing it is hard to come up with funny thing I did it. I did kind of backwards. I was already in animation. I did a comic strip wasn't really comedy was more an editorial cartoon for the local paper appeared in lancea, California and it was just a once a week thing. And it was I got paid nothing I just did. It was a challenge. I did it once a week for a year and of those 52 I think maybe two were good. The rest was like Monday night I'm like What am I good? I don't know what to drag it up put in something. And it was horrible. But yeah, I think it's just that that stress specially newspaper cartoons.
I did get to meet Mel Lazarus was another my didn't I never got to meet Charles Schulz. But Mel Lazarus said he was gonna introduce me to him, but he passed away before that. But Mel Lazarus, I get to meet through the Simpsons. He was in a Simpson episode. And this was before you could just Google Mel Lazarus and we needed a picture of them. For reference it gives he was in because he was a member of Mensa and Lisa joins Mensa. So Mel Lazarus has picture on the wall. So we had to find a picture. I couldn't find a good picture.
I was at the dentist and I saw a male Lazarus autographed artwork. I said, Oh, it's interesting. I'm trying to find a picture of Mel. Wow. And my dentist says Oh, my daughter, or no is my guest says his daughter is one of my clients. Do you want to give me your number? I'll put you in touch with her. I'm like, great. So I get in touch with Lazarus calls me and says I hear you need a picture. He's like, Yeah, I'll mail you one. So he mailed me a picture.
And it was it was a snapshot of him. It was a really nice picture. And it's it had like, fingers on the shoulder with red face. I think his ex wife was cut out of the picture they sent. And he said, Well, you know, when you're done with it, I want it back. You know, just you know, let me know when you're done. We'll get back to me. I'm like, okay, so we finished I called him up and said you want to you know, I can mail that picture back to the same address. He goes, No, I just bring it by come by and come by happy hour. And go to Mel Lazarus house, in Woodland Hills. And they're, you know, having beer with Mel Lazarus and happy hour is really cool.
Alicyn
Wow. And occasionally in comic strips, there'll be somebody that is a writer and somebody else that's doing the artwork. Have either of you guys ever worked in collaboration with either a writer or an artist? For specifically for a comic strip?
Pete Michels
Me know, mostly because most of what I do is animation, but in those ones that I did, I I drew and wrote them but they weren't even I didn't really have time to develop a style or anything but I knew like like talking to Mel Lazarus, he had a great system. He had it down where he he'd write them all on Monday, draw them on Tuesday, inked him on Wednesday and then letter them and send them off on Thursday and a long weekend so but No, I never had the the other would love to work with the writer
Mike Hollingsworth
Pete story about drawing that comic strip for ensuring said the paper in Valencia. It was the it was the Santa Clarita signal. Yeah, I that reminded me and I did have a situation where somebody was writing my comics, I reached out to the newspaper and Palace Varys Peninsula. When I first got to LA, it's like a very posh area like just where zillionaires live. And I was like, Oh, they had a daily paper. I was like, Do you guys need a cartoonist? And they're like, Yeah, we would like a cartoonist. And so they, but I had never been there. I think I was living in Silver Lake or whatever. That's quite a drive.
And I've never been to Palace 30s Peninsula, but I saw their newspaper and Torrance or something. And so they they mostly wanted. They're like all of the comics they wanted. They were like editorial cartoons and it was all about golf course drama, like different golf course news. And, and they were like your niche They were like, really like your comics, but they're not. They're not really specific enough to our situation. And then they started like writing out different, like very specific golf course, like comics about, like constructions on golf course and a certain hole being closed that week. And I was just, and they actually paid then after a while, I was like, no, no, I really want to be drawing comics about golf courses.
Pete Michels
Golf comics.
Alicyn
Yeah, almost look the same. So you guys both ended up in working successfully an animation? How? How did the first few years of animation treat you? Was it did you find that it was challenging in the beginning to get started? Hey, guys, this is Alicyn Packard. Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to let you know that if you like the show, please, please, please remember to subscribe to this podcast. And leave us a review on iTunes. It really helps us to get heard by more people. Thanks so much.
Pete Michels
Was Right Place Right Time, right? Yeah, it was but there were there was less competition. Back then there were less people doing it. And I think when I got on The Simpsons they were having they were having trouble finding people because I think before that, there was not a lot going on. And Television Animation. You know, there's some kids shows here and there like Smurfs and Real Ghostbusters.
But yeah, that wasn't like the boom that came later with Nickelodeon started in Cartoon Network started Comedy Central even so it was it was. Yeah, I think we were really learning as we went. So it was a lot of late nights. But it was it was like, okay, it had this real community feel like we all felt like we were, you know, like, working on something really special. But also it was. It was very, like there was a lot of camaraderie there. There was there's like it like we all felt like we're working on a student film, you know that we're going to try this. Oh, it was funny. If you did this, we're going to do that. And there were no limits or like, Yeah, sure. Put that in. Let's Great.
Alicyn
Wow, yeah, that sounds amazing. That feeling of camaraderie, to be able to share that with your work, fam.
Mike Hollingsworth
Yeah, I kind of went from that little like alternative for tuning. So I didn't really have a network. And I didn't, I didn't go to school for animation. So I did have a lot of trouble and breaking in. But what I but I just had such a pain, lust and desire to make cartoons like Pete was Right Place Right Time with The Simpsons. I feel like maybe I was right place, right time with YouTube. YouTube was just starting, when I was deciding that maybe I should put all my efforts into a career in animation.
And I remember like, the very first complete short that I made, I threw up on YouTube. And the by the end of the week, it had been viewed by like, a million people. And I was like, well think, I don't think a million people will ever see me do stand up or my little alternative comics in my whole life. I think maybe this is the way to go.
Pete Michels
You're thinking Property Management maybe isn't for me.
Mike Hollingsworth
Yes. So I just started banging out so many shorts. Just because I also like Adobe Flash, like the ability, so democratize like anybody can make a cartoon at that point. And so it was like a whole little animation studio in your home. And I just started banging out all these shorts and putting them on online and putting them submitting them to festivals. And like that very first short I made, got into fantasy, and the HBO Aspen Comedy Festival and animation block party in New York and just all these festivals and stuff. And it was kind of through meeting people at festivals. I ended up working that's how I was able to break through is kind of going to animation Block Party and going to the HBO Aspen Comedy Festival and meeting my fellow filmmakers Noah's actually through that.
And meeting Caroline Foley, who worked on Season One of Rick and Morty.
Pete Michels
Rick and Morty, yep.
Mike Hollingsworth
She was also an amazing animator who was making shorts. And I met her in New York animation block party and just chatted her up. I love chatting people up at these animation festivals, great people, filmmakers, and she went back when we both went back to LA. She at shadow machine they they pulled her aside and said hey, do you know anybody who knows how to do Adult Comedy Animation, you know, like we have this pilot that we're being that we we landed and that ended up being Bojack and she recommended me for it. So through that festival connection, you
Pete Michels
Was she ever Morty at the time? That was probably about that time? Oh, that was before Rick and or Rick and Morty. Yes, she
Mike Hollingsworth
worked on Season One of Bojack and then and then left to work on Season One of Rick and Morty. Yeah and she was there she was like your soul animation retake person.
Pete Michels
We had like a team of I think five, four or five but she was like yeah, she was our our heavy hitter. Yeah, yeah animated the Moon Man sequence in the Jemaine Clement song. And Rick and Morty that was, you know, she had it was a great amazing board artists that board that out that was Roy Conoco. And then they put so many posts in it. And then Carolyn just went nuts with the, with the morphing and everything. And she had to actually in between color, which was kind of cool, too. So it's been color.
Between color because you're morphing, you know Rick is turning into a flower and the colors are different, like okay, well, what's the in between from red to blue somewhere?
Mike Hollingsworth
Yeah.
Alicyn
Huh. Wow. Then when you started at Bojack, had you already had a few animation jobs under your belt?
Mike Hollingsworth
I did. He was actually one of my first supervisors on a show called Kid Notorious, which I have never really talked to Peter, quite about. I mean, a good gig for a idea for a show. It was a show about the famed cokehead movie producer Robert Evans, who ran paramount for a while. Yeah, and he wrote this book, which was just all this detail picture. Yeah, yeah, the kid stays in the picture. And, and it, it was like a documentary that had a lot of heat. It was a documentary that use like this really cool style that was often repeated. After that I like most it was like maybe the first big motion graphics. Hmm, yeah.
Pete Michels
Where do they take still images and then separate them in, like, Pan them in different directions and make it like, Oh, looks like 3d. It's like a 3d picture. But it's no, it
Mike Hollingsworth
had a lot of heat coming off of that. And they decided, what are we gonna do with this neat? Let's make a cartoon.
Pete Michels
Yeah, when I got when I got the call about the job that was, uh, you know, somebody recommended me and I got a call. And they said, well, we want to come down and talk about this new animated series for Comedy Central, based on on Robert Evans and like, okay, cool. Yeah, I can come down Monday. Great.
And I Googled him, like, who's Robert Evans. And I, the top three hits, where there was a movie producer produced The Godfather, and there was a comedian and a member of Parliament's, I'm like, Okay, well, no one's gonna make a cartoon about a Member of Parliament. And here's about the producer. The Godfather was like, you know, 80 years ago, don't give up. And so it must be the comedian. I call great. I looked them up. And I get there. I was like, Yeah, we're making it about Robert Evans, who produced the Godfather, and I'm like, Oh, okay.
Alicyn
Oh, my gosh,
Mike Hollingsworth
I always remember that, at that, on that job. I was so impressed by Pete and just the way he carried himself and his abilities. It was like my second job. And I always remember when I was on that job, I was a retake animator, just like Carolyn Foley was on it on Rick and Morty. Can you tell us what Yes, it's like, the animation would come back from overseas, and many different reasons. It would need to be plus so many a myriad of reasons. It could just be busted, didn't come in looking well, it could be lost in translation. Like, they didn't quite get what the joke was. Or it could have been a rewrite.
Pete Michels
Or could even just been something technical, like where's his arm?
Alicyn
We paid for an arm and we didn't get an arm!
Pete Michels
Two arms in the muddle!
Mike Hollingsworth
I'll always remember when I was on that show. I was sitting next to this other retail animator they just hired and my mom called me and she's like, how's it going in LA? Like, how was animation? What is it like? She's like, Oh, yeah, it's pretty good. She's like, do the people wear suits to work? And I remember looking over at the guy sitting next to me who his name his name was Jaime. It was really fun and great guy. And he would wear a poncho to work every day with no shirt underneath it. So from my view of him I could just see his chest and his nipples and his stomach so I was like, no people don't wear suits, Mom!
Pete Michels
In fact, we're lucky they're actually wearing anything mom!
Alicyn
now this is where NCS said we could add in a visual if we needed to accept a flash
Pete Michels
Oh you want to see a visual I can I have something that can shoot speaking of like getting getting a job on The Simpsons you had a lot of shows today when you breaking in the business you have to take a test and you know, I'm not a big fan of tests are giving them or taking them or making them but you know, if you're when you were starting out like me, like I didn't have anything any animation in my portfolio and I didn't know I had some animation for student films. It wasn't, you know, anything speak up. But so you have to take a test.
And for the Simpson test, I wanted to do character layout. So they give you a storyboard and they give you the script and an audio track for, you know, just one scene. And, you know, they give you the model pack and everything and you have to draw the poses, and I can share it with you. I still have it my very first attempt at Homer Simpson.
Alicyn
Oh my gosh!
Pete Michels
But this test is that terrible. Like what he's gonna do?
Alicyn
I think it's pretty good. But what do I know?
Pete Michels
his legs are too big. His hands like weird. I don't know what happened to his head. He's got Oh, yeah, it was. It was it did not give me the job. I took it again. And I twice failed the character portion of the test, but they liked my background. So I got hired as a background artist. Because I...
Mike Hollingsworth
I'm looking at this and I'm like, is that like, Oreo cookie dust? Oh, it looks like you're really sweating over this.
Pete Michels
I was I was probably Yeah, I was probably eating. Yeah, it was probably my Oreos, and depending on stay awake. But I used to hang that up at family guys. Every time I had a bad day of drawing Stewie, I just looked at Okay, could be worse. Oh.
Alicyn
Wow. So what are some of the highlights that you've had in your career in both of your careers in animation?
Mike Hollingsworth
Well, I recently I was invited to be a writer on the apple plus Snoopy series. So I actually got to write a couple episodes of that, who's now who's the alpha, but that was so cool. Writing for those characters. And one really cool aspect of it is, like, when I was a kid, I did meet Charles Schultz. And he invited me into the studio. And I just remembered it being so big. And I walked in there. And he, he was working on a Sunday script with Lucy and he, I just remember it being so amazing. He pushed aside the strip, and turn towards me, and then just gave me his full attention for like, two hours.
And I always just remember that motion of him pushing aside that strip, even though like, he was also turning his chair. So it's not like, but it was just such a him, like physically saying, like, I'm putting this aside, and I'm paying attention to you. I just always remember him doing that. And then when I went to go right on that soupy series, we had a writers room in Santa Rosa at his offices. And when I sat with him, I was 19 or 20. And then here I was, you know, at my age now 24. Here I am as a 40, a man in his 40s. And returning to this room that was so cinnamyl
Pete Michels
King, there's that word again.
Mike Hollingsworth
This room that was so seminal in my my own personal timeline, of meeting Trump's jokes, and then being like, this route was smaller than I thought it was his studio, like I remember this being way more vast, in my memory of it. And then in this instances, being able to sit in his seat, you know, and sit at his drawing table, that same drawing table that he pushed that wow, thing aside, it was for me, personally, I was sitting there, and I was kind of aware enough to be like, This is really weird to be back in this room. In this chair, like, I wasn't, I wasn't unaware of the, my own personal storyline, like the arc where like, I was struggling, and I was on the other side of that table. And then I worked very hard and now I was somehow sitting in his seat in the very same place. So that was a kind of a cool experience. Wow.
Pete Michels
You know, it's hard to pinpoint like one one highlight, I mean, I guess a highlight if anybody that works in Simpsons is doing a Halloween show and I was fortunate enough to direct a Halloween show and and that was a blast just because it's such a departure and such a challenge that most episodes are you know, we stick to reality and there's a physical reality that the characters live in and it's real world so doing a Halloween show is always fun because you know, all sudden they can stretch and they they're werewolves in there you know, Homer's got a giant donut head so those fun stuff you can do, but it was kind of an honor to get to direct a Halloween episode.
And you know of course you got you got to go down to the the records and you know that that episode happened have Dick Clarke and Lucy Lawless and Tom Arnold and no, it's it was just amazing. Like I'm hanging out with Dick Clark. You know, this is really so cool guy that you know, Buddy Holly is you know, it was weird. And but it was it then also backstage like Lucy Lawless was was she was just so amazing. She's so sweet. She's asking me for an autograph.
And one of the drawing for her daughter, like, you're asking me and, and it's, you know, as a cartoonist and animator, you know, we're used to being behind the scenes where, you know, we're shy, we're not really the most extroverted people. But, you know, for someone to look at me as like a rock star that was that was a weird, weird highlight. But it was, it was It was eye opening, because you one thing about TV animation, I can't go into your living room and see how the show was playing. I can't see if you're laughing at the jokes. If I when you work on features, you can go to the theater when we did have theaters.
And you can see you can sit in the back and see how everything is playing. See if everybody's getting into the story of laughing at the jokes and you can see their smiling faces walking out but with TV animation, it goes into this just goes out into space and you don't get really the response. You don't really know until you meet people that oh my god, you're gonna Rick and Morty. Wow. And, you know, so it's it's rewarding to get that that feedback. So, but it's hard to pinpoint, like one one highlight because it just been so many. I mean, just even, you know, going into a classroom because I do a lot of teaching also. And just Oregon guest we can just go into a class of kids, little kids and you know, you say oh, you know, this is how you drove Homer Simpson and theirs. And they they'll ask you like, what else have you worked on? Like I worked on Rugrats, I go, wow, Joe Chucky and like, to them, that's that's their Scooby Doo. You know, that's like, the stuff like I grew up on.
That's what they grew up on and stuff like, oh, yeah, I think you know, they grew up on the shows that I worked on and to get and that's, that's really why I wanted to get into because I I used to watch cartoons all the time. As a kid every Saturday morning, I was always watching cartoons or drawing cartoons all week long.
My notebooks are filled to cartoons and and, you know, when I got into it, thinking I wanted to do that I wanted to do kid shows to entertain kids to give back to what I enjoyed so much to other other people that you until you actually get that feedback and like, oh, this, you know, that's that's, that was a big highlight to just getting feedback from people that have the shows you're working on, because you don't really get that, like, oh, you're done, turn off your computer and you know, you get the paycheck, you don't really get that feedback. So that's always a highlight for me.
Alicyn
Yeah. And if some if you met some cartoonists that were interested in, say, going from cartooning to animation, what advice would you give them?
Mike Hollingsworth
One interesting thing, when I at NCS meetings, a lot of folks were talking or very interested in taking their cartoons and make them making them into like little animated shorts, and just like the software and how to do it, and I'm so jealous of them. I'd rather sit just draw the cartoons.
Pete Michels
You have to draw one drawing at a time.
Mike Hollingsworth
Not have to worry about making them move.
Pete Michels
It's kind of like in these arcs though. It's It's really what you're drawn to like Pete and I may have had early cartooning aspirations, but I mean, we, we obviously like, there's no scenario where like, I feel like I've landed in the right place in animation. Like I, once I kind of discovered how to animate like, I couldn't kind of stop animating. I just loved it. So much.
And yeah, it's I think the same may be true for these cartoonists. Like, if they were going to be successful in animation, they would have probably already done it. i But really, I guess the answer is and Pete was involved. If you're a cartoon cartoonists who's interested in animation, like Matt graining was, you just got to find a whole army of animators to animate your your comic strip. While you just go around and gladhands people at comic book shows at Comic Con.
Alicyn
Well, I mean, isn't there also an indie route? I mean, can't couldn't they feasibly find independent animators on Upwork Upwork or Fiverr or something?
Pete Michels
There are Yeah, there is there if you want to have fine animators to animate your, your own project. But you know, there's a, there's a lot of different routes to go like one would be to go to a smaller studio that's like shadow machine or stupid buddy or smaller studio like that, that will help you develop it, but they'll also you know, fund it a little bit and also use resources that you know if they have equipment or artists that are between seasons of shows and you get the benefit of that talent pool as well. So that's that's another way to go.
And if you have a successful cartoon strip, you can say hey, I want to animate this and you know, get it out there. There's also some some small studios have distribution deals with larger streaming networks and things. So there's there's those ways to go. But But yeah, if you Were if you were not known if you didn't have a name that people knew or comic strip that people knew, then yeah, then it was a little harder. But you know, you there's still ways to pitch that and a lot of what studios look for now especially sponsors that online presence, they look for younger artists that have, you know, that put their comics on Instagram or whatever, that have the bill look for new talent that way too. So, you know, sometimes you could just get discovered, but,
Mike Hollingsworth
But if there are any cartoonists out there, let's say I don't know, Bill Watterson. If you are looking for someone to make a series of Calvin and Hobbes, me and Pete will team up on it, you'll have the supervising directors of Bojack. And Rick and Morty, we'll team up to bring your comic strip Calvin and Hobbes to the big screen, a little screen, green screen door, whatever screen...
Pete Michels
We'll come to you. We'll go to your house. We'll come to you address. We'll go to your house. We'll come to you.
Mike Hollingsworth
We're here to say we will come to you.
Alicyn
Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for your time. Thank you MCS for hosting this event. And we look forward to the next one.
Pete Michels
Thank you, Alicyn.
Mike Hollingsworth
Thank you.
Alicyn
Bye, everybody. Thanks for tuning in to Alicyn's Wonderland, where we explore the wild and wonderful world of animation and video games. Please remember to subscribe and leave us a review. For more episodes of Alicyn's Wonderland. Please visit us at www.AlicynPackard.com. See you next week.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai