Alicyn
Welcome to Alicyn's Wonderland. I'm your host, Alicyn Packard. Join us as we journey through the looking glass and down the rabbit hole into the wild and wonderful world of animation and video games.
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Hello, hello, welcome Alicyn's Wonderland. Tonight's guest is Jordan Koch. And I'm so excited to bring Jordan to you tonight. Anyone remember this song? There's a reason why I'm playing that song. And we're gonna get into that later. Hey, Jordan.
Jordan Koch
Hey, hey!
Alicyn
What's going on? How are you in there?
Jordan Koch
Good. I logged on and that music was blasting it was phenomenal.
Alicyn
Yes, yes. You secure in your little box. Hello Jordan. Hello. Yeah. Yeah, I was I love that song. And I - Golden Girls is just one of the best sitcoms of all time!
Jordan Koch
The greatest!
Alicyn
So I was just reading up that you were quite the Golden Girls fan yourself. So
Jordan Koch
Yes, that's before and before I need to know before it kind of hit popularity within the last like four years. Like, don't get wrong, I appreciate all the new swag and all the there's like a Golden Girls Expo coming I think next year, but like, there were those of us who were fans when we had nothing except Lifetime TV reruns and box set DVDs, which nobody wanted DVDs anymore. So yeah, there's always that little twinge of like I knew about that restaurant before you even moved here. You know that kind of a vibe?
Alicyn
Yeah. Although even in its initial airing, it was wildly popular. And so yeah, so you still got into it when it was retro ish. I mean, or did you watch it with your parents or something? When it was...?
Jordan Koch
I found it in middle school of like reruns just on TV. And, and I thought a lot about it recently of like, maybe you can relate, like, there was just so much stuff that you could just like come across like cartoons, and just literally anything like, personalities who are doing infomercials and so much content, like everybody talks about how much content there is now, but it was like, "Yeah, but think about how like, channels were just on 24 hours a day, like when we were kids, and like cable was the thing?"
Alicyn
Yeah.
Jordan Koch
Like, that's how I found them. You know, it's just like clicking through. And, you know, they had like, really, I mean, from a visual standpoint, they had like, really hilarious visuals that when you like clicking through, you know, like, just three older women dressed in like full bird outfits, and you kind of just like, you know, it's like a seventh grader, you're like, "What?" you know, and then like, there's a joke, and some stuff went over my head. And then as I kept watching, and I was like, they're saying that, you know, and just like little things like that. And, and I just, it was just something that I like stumbled across.
And then when you watch it, you're like, This is just objectively funny. The personalities are so strong and so clear, which is obviously super important. And the writing was just really good. Like, it is really good, you know, and yeah, it's one of those things like there's such a, like, people know, of this show, and they're like, you know, especially like an eighth grade and they're like, What do we like, my grandma watches that and I was like, I don't know, makes me laugh, you know? And still does.
Alicyn
Yeah, it's it's, you know, considered one of the greatest sitcom writing - written series of all time.
Jordan Koch
It's so well written. And there's so many themes not to get like that deep into there's so many themes, and so many things that they covered that from like, there's on from 85 to 92. Like, that was ahead of its time, then you know, and you sort of go back and watch these, I don't believe it's ever been like remastered and so they're still like really grainy episodes kind of on Hulu.
And you go back and watch it and you're like, I don't know, I still kind of feel like in 2021 they're doing things that current shows aren't really doing you know, and, and they covered a lot of stuff like a lot of stuff that wasn't just comedy and gags, like a lot of really deep things. But I think when you have those two polar opposites of like really funny, just great Betty White humor, and then like also really impactful hard hitting stuff that's fits within a 22-minute? When you have that range. I think that's what makes it so good.
Alicyn
And we're just talking Betty White's turning a hundred very soon?
Jordan Koch
Yes.
Alicyn
Do you remember what date is her birthday?
Jordan Koch
Oh gosh, I want to say like around the 17th?
Alicyn
January 17? Oh my god. Spot on! 2022, that lady's gonna be 100 years old!
Jordan Koch
My mom has like those big desk calendars. She's always had them to keep track of me and my brothers and everything. And like since I was in like middle school like for she always has everyone's birthday - cousins, aunts, uncles, literally every single person so she can send them cards and things like like that, and one year like that's where our phone was before cell phones and one year I was like standing talking on the phone and I looked and she had like all the Golden Girls' birthdays written. So like January 17 it just says like Betty White like 90 or what? And I was like, how the Golden Girls made it onto like the family calendar.
Alicyn
Wow. Are we gonna send Betty White a birthday card Ma?
Jordan Koch
She should, she has her address.
Alicyn
Wow. Are they?
Jordan Koch
Well, when I turned 16, she wrote to them and they all sent me autographs. The three the three of them.
Alicyn
What?
Jordan Koch
Estelle still wasn't signing autographs. But yeah.
Alicyn
So for those that are at home, just listening in onto this podcast. Jordan has just lifted up a picture frame filled with headshots, promo shots of the Golden Girls.
Jordan Koch
Well, these are the reproductions, because this was the one that used to be my office at Nickelodeon. And the real ones are here at the house. So but yeah, no, Betty's was the first one that showed up. And she she actually wrote Happy like, wished me a happy birthday in her little inscription,
Alicyn
An angel.
Jordan Koch
And Jim Colucci. He's an author. He wrote a fantastic book about the Golden Girls like super in depth that came out a couple of years ago. And he sat with all of them and really went into details to write his book and he's seen my autographs that I have, and he confirmed that they're all in their handwriting. So no secretaries or anybody who snuck in so apparently they're all legit, which is amazing.
Alicyn
Woo hoo! Yeah, Betty White... I was once was an stand in on a Hallmark movie that she was in and I can confirm she was an angel. So we're so happy for Betty White and all the gifts he's given to us. Fun fact Tamar chimed in that Quentin Tarantino guest starred in an episode as an Elvis Elvis impersonator.
Jordan Koch
Impersonator!
Alicyn
Did you see that episode?
Jordan Koch
Yeah, he was there. George Clooney was in an episode are really young George Clooney, Dick Van Dyck, there was another autograph.
Alicyn
Oh, hey!
Jordan Koch
Dick Van Dyke was in an episode of The Golden Girls. There were so many great guest stars. And yeah, I mean, across the board from, like I said, from the jokes to the premises to the guest stars. Even the costuming those great 80s like shoulder pads, you know, like,
Alicyn
Is this streaming? Would you know, or streams?
Jordan Koch
It's on Hulu.
Alicyn
It's on Hulu, guys. Somebody asked in the comments.
Jordan Koch
I always used to keep a big stack of my like all the box sets. The first one I bought at Blockbuster, when I saw that they were on DVD.
Alicyn
Hey!
Jordan Koch
And I used to keep those old like there. I may still have them. But then like they announced that it was on on Hulu. And I was like, Oh, this saves me from putting disk in after disk and disk. And I can just click around this is great.
Alicyn
Where did you grow up?
Jordan Koch
Back in Pennsylvania?
Alicyn
Pennsylvania, okay.
Jordan Koch
Yeah, Far East Coast.
Alicyn
So you are a storyboard artist for those of our listeners that might not know what your job is? Like? Can you give us a little description?
Jordan Koch
Yeah, it's drawing, it's writing. It's there's multiple plates that get spun kind of simultaneously? Full of workshops. And I do a lot of you know, I speak to students and classes and outreach and stuff like that. And there's a lot of plates to be spun. It's kind of like the a big like blueprint part of an episode for a cartoon where you're given an outline. So like on Tom and Jerry, the show that we worked on Tom and Jerry, you're given an outline, which reads sort of in paragraph form.
And, you know, it reads kind of just like a story, you know, it's like Tom chases Jerry, and they do blah, you know, but there's holes, there's, it's not word for word, specific, but you can see, at least from my desk, I can see where, oh, they say the cat gets hit, but they don't say how. So I get to fill those fill in those blanks. And then there's other stuff that I've done, where, you know, like The Loud House that was all scripts and really, really thought out and the dialogue is all there and but in any case, whatever it is outline or boards or anything like that, it comes to me as written.
And then when I pass it on, and then it goes to the designers and background characters, props, and you know, it gets cut to time as an animatic. So then you're seeing it as an actual cartoon, but for the six weeks or however many weeks that I have it. It's the kind of the equivalent of building a house, you know? Like you think of the exam or the blueprints. You think of the writers, as you know, the client and talking about, well, we want a big window here and we want a big staircase and we want that, you know, and he's taking they're taking out all these written notes.
And then someone has to turn those notes and those visions into a blueprint that will then be given off and actually assembled and erected, you know, and so the job of a storyboard artist is really like you're mapping the thing. You're turning something from words into pictures, and I mean on The Loud House -
Alicyn
The architects.
Jordan Koch
Yeah, they were 11 minute episodes. We do like 1300 panels, you know, per episode, and then that would then get taken, you know, I've had people ask, they were like, do you just board like one character? And somebody does the other ones? And, like, No, it's all characters, it's all backgrounds, it's... sometimes you're giving some little assets, you know, and especially if the show's been around for a little bit, you have backgrounds that you can reuse and things, but you still gotta just come, you know, have something come out of nothing. And it's visual. But it's also, you know, the story and all that stuff has to make sense. So like I said, at the top, there's a lot of spinning plates.
Alicyn
And so the storyboard artist is generally not the person who's created the character says that right? So how do you get proficient at drawing characters?
Jordan Koch
It comes pretty quick, it comes pretty quick, you have to do. I mean, at least with the learners when you had to do we have 11 main characters, it wasn't, you know, about one, and then there were some others, it was like, No, they were all there all the time, you know, and I did over 30 episodes of that show, and I got a lot of episodes.
In season three, I got a ton of episodes where they were just all together, all my episode started with like, there's a sibling meeting, you're trying to figure out which one's tallest, and get them in the back. And that's a lot of stage choreography type. Yeah. And, you know, you know, the baby's really little, so somebody could hold her, so you can get her up higher. And if she's up higher than maybe you can kind of cut in on a somewhat of a medium shot, and it doesn't have to be pulled out wide.
And we every now and then you'll get an episode where it says like, you know, they they come in contact with like the school janitor, you know, and you ask around and you're like, have we? We have the janitor? Have we seen them? Do they exist? And they're like, I don't think so. And so you got to come up with what the janitor looks like. And now then it goes back to the story, then it's like, well, what's the janitor doing? Is the janitor chasing the kids, if they are, then you need some kind of a design, that's going to work really well for that. So that's where like having a little bit of a character design knack or influence, or at least a little knowledge comes into play. Because you got to put something down, I've, I've put just placeholder characters into episodes that look identical to what the final version looks like. And I've put placeholder characters in whose final design looks nothing like what I do, which is also fine. But you have to get, you have to put something there, you can't just put like a stick figure.
Alicyn
And it's all going to be within the same style of this world. So you're you're kind of taking on the personality of the show, artistically. And speaking the language that's been created.
Jordan Koch
Yeah.
Alicyn
So you really have to be a jack of all trades.
Jordan Koch
Pretty much. Yeah. I mean, like from, you know, from the work that you do, you go on auditions, you know, and, and that's for the creative team to figure out if you're going to be a good fit, especially specifically vocally. But if you're going to be a good fit for the project, not only vocally, but tonally, they're also probably taking into consideration, you know, is Allison somebody we want to work with and things like that. And then on our side of the mic, on the other side, we do tests, a lot of times a studio or a show will have you do an art test. And so they'll give you a couple you know, if it shows looking for a board artist, they'll give you a couple pages of a script. And then and then you are to just board it as if it was your job. And then you send it into them. And it's the same thing. It's there, the team is looking to see, like you just said, can you match the tone? Can you, you know, fit into the world of this show? Can you pick up on the nuances?
And, you know, it's harder if you're testing for a show that hasn't aired? Because -
Alicyn
Yeah.
Jordan Koch
No frame of reference. But at the same time, there's so much that you can't hide from if the show has aired, you know, I used to see test for the Roundhouse. And I was like this show has been out for a couple of years. Have you ever watched it? Because you'll be able to pick up on little things that we have learned of like, well, the character doesn't walk like that, or he would never do, you know, because you know who these characters are. You know, like, think of Big Bird, you know, it's like, we all know, Big Bird, you can kind of, if Big Bird did something out of character, it would be very jarring because you're like, wow, he doesn't, he wouldn't I didn't ever think he would do that, you know, and but that's because you know, who these characters are, you know? And that's something that when you're trying to get a role on the show, like that's really important, both for an actor and, you know, for the people behind the scenes on my side.
Alicyn
That's so interesting. So how did it come about that you started the job at The Loud House?
Jordan Koch
I mean, it was kind of like, trial by fire. A lot of it was connections and who you know, and sort of being out here I had moved I graduated from college in 2012 and moved out here within a couple of months because I was out of school and you know, the college meal plan was over and you know your housing was done. And all this and you're like, this is you know, and then a day or two will go by and yellow has been three days since I've graduated, you know, and it was like, it's just such a, like, the field was like, you know, being let off the leash.
And you're like, Okay, well, we have to do some, let's do something productive, right? You know. So I graduated in May, and I moved out to LA in June, July, mid July will be 10 years next summer, and patience. I didn't have a job I did, the only thing I had lined up was an apartment. That was it. I didn't have a job, I didn't have an internship, I didn't have anything. But it's like, you know, the analogy, I've always given students and things was like, I wanted to catch a fish. So I had to go to the lake, you know, like, you just -
Alicyn
And teach yourself how to fish.
Jordan Koch
Exactly. It's very overwhelming, it's very daunting. But at the same time, it was like, just by, you know, packing a lunch and going and sitting at the lake, you're already better off than if you were at home and expecting a fish to just show up at your door. I mean, it sounds super stupid. But that that was kind of the thought process, you know, and moved out here and, you know, started making a bunch of contacts and people who I met kind of along the way, and I had gotten a startup gig at a super tiny studio with our friend Ezra, who you know.
Alicyn
Yes! Ezra!
Jordan Koch
You know, we got to do we got he both he and I got to draw and work in this industry, even just at a startup studio. And that, you know, gave you obviously a lot of confidence and excitement to be out here and to be working and to have responsibility and be contributing and working with others. And then by the time The Loud House came along, the short came out that was about like a year and a half later, the short came out Nick greenlit it to a series. And then I had met some of the folks at Nickelodeon through another contact who were developing the show. And so I was kind of I kind of already existed in the ether, if you will. And then when it was announced that it was going to series, they had to have a whole staff, you know, they had to bring a whole bunch of people.
And so they reached out and asked if I would do a test for character design. The test, which I explained, and I did it and did not get the job for the character design position. And I was crushed because I was like, Man, this style of this show is like so close to my own style. And like I was scared because I was like if I can't work on this show, which is like such a cozy fit, you know, it's like, it's like a really good like sweater, a really good pair of slippers. And then somebody saying, Well, you can't have it. You're like, I have to have this. This is like the perfect, you know,
Alicyn
Story of my life.
Jordan Koch
And so then they said, Well, why don't take storyboard test. But then I got doubly scared because I was like, Well, I've never store I mean, I did a little college because you learn it. But other than that, like I didn't have a storyboard portfolio or anything. And like I said, they sent over a couple of pages of a script, and it was a blast. And I turned him in. And I got it was like Indiana Jones, like when he drops his hat and he grabs it right before the door closes. I got in, they hired me as the revisionist. And the door closed behind me because I started in December of 2014. And I was the last person hired of like the original crew.
Wow.
Once I was there, then it was like the doors are locked. Let's make a show, you know. And then five months later, I started boarding on the show and not doing revisions anymore. And you know, the rest was history. And we went on with the show.
Alicyn
Is revisionist sort of the entry level version of storyboard artists?
Jordan Koch
Kind of. Yeah, yeah, it's a and it was extremely needed and extremely necessary, especially for anybody who wants to be a board artist, because we had six board artists on the show when I was doing revisions. And one when I'm boarding now I just do my work. And then I turn it in, and then I get another assignment. And I turn that in, but as a revision is your kind of all hands on deck all the time.
And so we had six board owners, and so I would see each board artists, I would look at, you know, I do notes on all the different boards, and I would see little tricks, you know, it's like, think about being like in your case that came up being an extra on a set where there's like six leads, you know, and when you observe scenes with certain people, you're like, oh, wow, that's so interesting how that person hits their marker things. And I learned all these little cheats, you know, or like little action lines or things to make your drawings because the whole point of boarding is, you know, that your drawings have to live.
And these things have to just, the cartoon has started, you know, and you're the first person and so I was taking so many like screenshots and, you know, lasso tooling poses and just looking at, like, how all six of the board artists drew the characters differently and what their shorthands were and what really worked and other things that I looked at where I was like, wow, I mean that that's an interesting way to do something, you know, and everybody had their own different approach and they all came from different places, you know, some board artist came from primetime, one of the board artists, he was right out of school. And so it was like the best five months of, like, free class, you know, to like, learn on the job. You know, it was it was completely invaluable.
Alicyn
Wow.
Jordan Koch
Yeah.
Alicyn
And so you also have a border collie named Lincoln. Just wondering,
Jordan Koch
I do. He just turned five.
Alicyn
Wow! Okay, so did you name him after Lincoln on the show?
Jordan Koch
I didn't he... I did not a friend of mine or my wife. She had a friend that she went to high school with was fostering him and my wife's from Oklahoma. And Lincoln was a foster puppy in Oklahoma. And, and my wife's friend will post photos of puppies that they have that they're fostering for the time and things. And I was sitting at work. I was at Nickelodeon. And my wife texted me and just sent me this tiny little photo of like a five month puppy. And she was like, he needs a home and his name's Lincoln. And I was like, What in the one of the odds?
Alicyn
What are you looking for a dog?
Jordan Koch
We wanted to. Yeah, but we weren't like actively. We had definitely talked about it, though. And, and so we flew to Oklahoma. We picked him up, and neither of us wanted to put him onto the plane. So we drove him all the way back to Burbank. And...
Alicyn
Wow.
Jordan Koch
Yeah, so it was like one of those perfect fit, so we got him a little orange color to match. Lincoln louds orange polo shirt. And there he is.
Alicyn
That's so amazing. It was definitely meant to be
Jordan Koch
Yeah, totally. But then I said, I said, well, so the next one when we get another dog at some point, like, does that dog's name have to you know, it's like, you know, this is my dog, you know, like Samurai Jack or whatever show I'm currently working on, you know, do I have to get to and name each of them Tom and Jerry like -
Alicyn
Yeah.
Jordan Koch
So we'll see what happens when another puppy...
Alicyn
This is how you manifest your next show.
Jordan Koch
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What do we like to be working on when the next puppy comes along?
Alicyn
Now I knew there's a running gag in Loud House where they have boy Jordan and girl Jordan. And I had heard that storyboard artists, Jordan Rosado was the inspiration for girl Jordan, your name is also Jordan. Is that a coincidence? Or did you inspire boy Jordan?
Jordan Koch
I am boy Jordan.
Alicyn
You are boy Jordan!
Jordan Koch
There was girl Jordan and boy Jordan. And I remember, that was how people told us apart. That I mean, we one of our friends on the show who used to work with us, he still will text me and call me boy Jordan. That's just the kind of just duck you know, because what are the odds that two people on the story team are both gonna, like I said that we had six board artists and two of them were named Jordan, that's...
Alicyn
At least two of the same gender might be harder to discern.
Jordan Koch
Right? Yeah. Yeah. Girl, Jordan. Boy, Jordan made it a little easier. But yeah, I remember when we were in the pitch. And I think the first time if I remember, I think the first time it happened. Maybe I'm wrong. But the moment I remember was, I guess, girl Jordan, boy Jordan were in Lincoln's class.
And one of the other kids in their class was handing out invites for a big party. And he was just handing them out. And he was just naming people so and so, so and so, girl Jordan, boy Jordan, and like, the whole room, like because we would pitch our boards to the entire crew.
Everybody would just we just cracked up laughing like, um, you know, it was one of those like, they just say, you know, what we thought they said, and then it became the - somebody just add that or was that in the script? And so we went back and the writers actually wrote it in the script and stayed and then there was in the final episode, so so so yeah, that's...
Alicyn
Do a lot of fun that or is that just like fun Loud?
Jordan Koch
No, I think, at least at the when I was there, a lot of the episodes we did, there were a ton of things that were hidden. You know, really early on, girl Jordan, Jordan Rosado who you mentioned, she did a great caricature, she charactered all of us on the cruise. So she did like 30 drawings. And then those were the only like, because we started with nothing. Those were the only characters that existed sort of in the style of the show.
And so somebody had an episode where, you know, Lincoln and his friend go to a concert. And so all the people in line for the concert, were just all of our caricatures. And so we all got animated characters made of us from those caricatures, because we just needed background people just to dump in, you know, and so, and once they're designed, and once they're, you know, built, you know, for animation, you can reuse them. And so, you know, next thing, you know, there's, you know, a couple of people from the crew at a baseball game. There's a couple people over here, so, yeah, it was there was tons of stuff to that show from everybody from every different corner of you know, all possibilities. Oh, that's so serious.
Alicyn
I know since the pandemic you've been Working from home. And I know it's like a fairly easy for animators to adapt working from home because you can have the tools sort of at home. Can you talk a little bit about whether that was an easy transition? And do you think something's lost in translation with everybody working remote?
Jordan Koch
I mean, definitely at the onset, it was kind of easy, because, like I had mentioned, you know, we, I have a lot of panels to draw. The boarders had a lot of drawings that have to get done.
Alicyn
Were you at Tom and Jerry at that time?
Jordan Koch
No, I was still in Loud House. Okay, last, I think it was around my last month on the The Loud House, and, and so I was wrapping up that and so you know, our day, today, we just have a ton of work that has to physically get done, you know, and it's not easy to just, you know, drive to Burbank and at nine o'clock, you know, be funny, be creative, be you know, smart, be clever, be witty, and then like at six o'clock, turn it off and go home like that, especially and then you stop for lunch, and then you come back and you're like, Okay, now like fire it up again, you know, and it's like, so there's like, how you can't put a time frame around that kind of approach, you know, it's not paperwork, it's not, you know, well, the bank opens at nine. And then we close the doors, it's like, it's, you know, stuff sticks with you, if something's not working, you take it home, and you still thinking about it.
So when at first, when we, you know, the first day, we all started working at home, yeah, you had to adapt a little bit, but you really had time just to sort of like focus and get your stuff done, you know, now it was at the cost of not being able to go bug, you know, a friend on the show and kill some time or go, you know, grab coffee and just sit and talk and, you know, just catch up with each other. But you there wasn't a lot of stuff, you know, so productivity wise, you know, since March of last year, been very productive, because you have the time to do it, you, you know, those of us with even a small commute is off the table. So, you know, you get that time back and things like that. And so, yeah, it worked.
I mean, it works really well. I mean, it, obviously animation sort of went out, continued on without even a hiccup when so many other areas and disciplines in art town here in LA were really grinded to a halt. So so that flexibility was fantastic. I don't know if anything's been like, directly lost because of it. But you do miss the like, the camaraderie and I know, like one of my best friends who work he and I work together on Loud House, we're working together on the same show at Netflix. Now, we shared an office when we were at Nickelodeon, and, you know, we'd both be working on different episodes, but he would call me over and say, Hey, can you like look at this, like, I need to get out of this scene?
I don't know, I need something to just end the scene, obviously, something funny, can you just look at it because I got nothing, you know, and I would look at it and then gave him an idea. And then he would sit with and he was like, Well, I think that worked. You know, and, and all of a sudden, like, now you're moving on, you know, and sometimes you just need that second set of eyes. And that's not as easy if you have to, like text somebody and say, Hey, can we FaceTime real quick and like, can I like, you know, show you my screen. And then I'm like trying to like scrub through my board. So those elements of it, you really miss you know, and there's degrees of politics in the industry of you know, so and so, you know, their show got picked up, or they're short, they need somebody to pinch it on their short for a couple, you know, it's like, there's little things like that, that you just hear in passing or, you know, somebody sees you in the hallway, and they'll ask, can you come here for a sec, you know, like, So little things like that, you know, obviously, certainly take a hit. So those are the things that you know, I'll be really excited about...
Alicyn
Hey, guys, this is Alicyn Packard, sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to let you know that if you like the show, please, please, please remember to subscribe to this podcast, and leave us a review on iTunes, it really helps us to get heard by more people, thanks so much!
Jordan Koch
When things start to open back up, but at the same time, the the flexibility of like I said, you know, the, you know, the nine to six, you know, and that's the window to get everything done. And if you don't, you have to make it up some other time. And that flexibility is, you know, you can't, you can't, you can match that that's been fantastic to just, you know, be able to, you know, devote the time to the project, you know, and when inspiration strikes, you know, there's, there's times where like, after dinner, you know, if everybody's asleep, and I'll come back up here and I'll work on my own stuff. And you know, and it doesn't feel as much of a job because it's not, there was the job, here's home, I don't want to go do the job again late at night. So when it all kind of those lines got blurred a little bit it kind of gives more room for inspiration and creativity and things like that.
Alicyn
Interesting. Interesting. So what are the tools that you use as a storyboard artist?
Jordan Koch
I'm I mean, I, I started with, I mean paper and like a marker, which sounds like super archaic, but especially on Tom and Jerry, like that was extremely important because there was next to no dialogue, you know, because Tom and Jerry don't talk. And so, and it was an outline. So you read the story. It was so visual, and not only that, but like, they've been around for 80 years, you know, so it was like, this, like, I had no presence, I wish, you know, it was like, the tiniest little hands, like reaching up to like, pass them on to their 82nd year, you know, it was the complete opposite of like, being on the loud house from day one, you know, like, like, working with Tom and Jerry, that was like making a movie with Tom Hanks, where you're like, This is so not about me, this is all about them.
And you know, so but because it was an outline driven, you would read the outline, and then you would just sit here and you're just flooded with, you know, like, when you were five or six, and you were watching Tom and Jerry, and you were like, Oh, my God, like, what was all the great stuff? Like, could I possibly hit Tom with an iron and like, have his head like, turn into a triangle or like, whatever Jerry eats, like, have that shape, like his body change into that cheese? We you know, and it was like, Yeah, what a great, like opportunity, it was like getting to drive like a classic car. It was amazing. You know, so. So for that, you know, a lot of like, just for me, like, I'll just sit down and just draw and just, it gives me a moment to get away from my desk from the computer screens, and I can do them outside, there was one last summer we lost power at our house. And it was like 115 degrees that day.
Unfortunately, I was just starting a new Tom and Jerry episode of which I do on, you know, originally the first day or so I would do them on paper, and then scan all my drawings in. And I was like, Well, fortunately, I don't have to be on my computer, because we don't have any power. But also, it's very, very hot. And we don't have any air conditioning. And so I just grabbed a whole stack of paper. And like an old shelf from a bookshelf and a handful of markers. I went set in the bathtub and just boarded the entire cartoon, while sitting in cold water because I was like, I'm at home, and I'm still getting my work done. And I'm not hunting, you know, so it really, it really worked!
Alicyn
Dropped like a whole stack into the way...
Jordan Koch
I was very, I was very, very nervous. I was like, as soon as like, I finished one sheet because I have little boxes on every page. As soon as I would finish one, I would gently put it very far away, and then I would start over. But it worked, you know, so. So yeah, that's my I'll start with I think maybe I can grab some here. I'll start with these of all aired. So I guess I can share some of these.
So like, they'll, they would hand us like an outline. So it just like I said, like, if you were to read this devotee, it would just read like a bedtime story. You know, it's like, it starts in the hotel, and Tom and Jerry do this. And then I would just take, like, these giant sheets, just copy paper. And then you know, I would just fill them with, you know, all these tiny little scribbles. And, and really, it's, it's honestly just for me, like, it's, you know, they're they're not great drawings, but they they at least tell me what I want to do where so and so's got, you know, you can see the top middle of something falls in that bush. And it's honestly, like I said, it's, it's the best and most energetic way to get for me to read something, and then see it visually, you know, and that's just me and a piece of paper, like, it's been since I was little, you know, and then I'll scan all of these in.
And then there's a program called Storyboard Pro, which is pretty standard for the industry.
Alicyn
Desktop or iPad?
Jordan Koch
Yeah, here, yeah, with our Cintiq, where we draw right on the screen, and I'll scan all those drawings in and then I'll actually build a very, very, I mean, you saw how rough they were, I'll build a super rough first pass of of the episode, you know, and there's some things where I'm like, yeah, no, he's chasing him there. But that's very, very rough. And then there's other things where it's like, wow, that does work pretty well, just with like a really rough scribble. And then I'll go back and then I'll start to tie them down, punch them up a little bit, you know, like, but everything in those really rough scribbles. That's all the very initial thinking. That's all the you know.I
had a gag where Jerry is on the hamster ball and Tom kicks the ball off screen, and then Butch the cat gets hit with the ball. And so he retaliates and like he he bowled the the hamster ball back off screen instead of kick it. So because he bowls it, I had him do like little twinkle toes thing from the Flintstones because a Hanna Barbera. He bowls the ball off screen and then when the ball comes in and hit makes contact with Tom, as soon as it hits him. I just had Tom break apart until like furry grey bowling pin. And you know, you can't do that on The Loud House or you know, some of the other stuff I work in. But you can do it here. And if you can do it here, you might as well you know, because it's like being at a restaurant that like, let you throw food, you're like, Well, who else is gonna let us do this? Like, we should totally do this, you know?
Alicyn
Gummy worm sandwich? Yes please!
Jordan Koch
Honestly, there was, you know, all of those little moments where you know that that, for me is my favorite part because it's so raw, and it's so genuine, because it's that immediate, thinking, you know, it's that immediate, like, Man, oh, my God, we can do this. And you try to not get, like, blindsided by the fact that you are going to have to be the one who does it later, be much better if I could just do these really rough drawings. And then we're gonna do this, and he's gonna break apart and then give it to somebody we like, No, you do the hard stuff. But I'm still the one who has to do the hard stuff. So we you know, by that point, you forgotten about it. Because, you know, you start to sit with these gags and things like that.
And, you know, every day when I sit down, I sort of look at the pages that I'm going to be doing that day. And you know, there's that spark of like, oh, man, we get to do a bowling gag today, like, this is gonna be great, you know? And then you do it. You're like, oh, that you know, and you're arrowing through and seeing all the panels and Storyboard Pro you can scrub so you can like really see, kind of it start to animate. And you know, there's still that, that amazing spark that like, wow, this, this was nothing. This was nothing. And now we have something here, you know?
Alicyn
You're making magic.
Jordan Koch
Yeah.
Alicyn
Magic for kids of all ages.
Jordan Koch
You know, there's something. But I think that's the thing. Like it has to start with, you know, in your case, you know, you have to have a voice or something where you're like, Oh, I love this. This is such a great nod for this character. That's such a great, you know, and then that comes through, you know, like, the stuff that I've been doing for the last year at Netflix, like, I'm so excited to see this stuff animated and see it coming to life. And, you know, because what when it left here, I was super jazzed about it, you know, so it's kind of that like, very long process of like a return where you're like, oh, man, 10 months ago, I boarded that. Look at that. There it is.
Alicyn
Can you tell it can you talk a little bit about what you're working on at Netflix?
Jordan Koch
I think yeah, I'm working on the new the new series for the Story Bots franchise the story bot universe. And it's been an absolute blast. It's been the one I met with them last fall they they had said we we want to do something like old Sesame Street, which I adore. And you know, that sort of like not talking down to kids but showing by example, but also bigger stories, songs, shorts, little things like that. And it was so energetic as a kid to watch that, you know, like the ladybug picnic and then, you know, like all just those like great characters of you know, Sherlock Hemlock was like a Sherlock Holmes character, who had like the letter of the day, like in his jacket, like, there's just such great stuff.
And then a lot of times though, like when you read a Bible or like you meet with folks and they like, you know, give you those
Alicyn
A show bible, that's just.
Jordan Koch
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they give you the pitch of of the show and you read it and then not not pretty often by the time you get like into it things have been noted there's been other inputs and things like that and it's still there there's still the same concept is there but this for this story about show it's it's the closest I mean, like as soon as we started you know, I started getting stuff to do and started to see this thing start to get sewn together I was like, wow, there's very little room in between what you told me you wanted this to be like what we actually made you know, so I'm very much in awe of how identical it is to like what they set out to do because it's just natural there's so many moving parts there's so much money and there's so many different people and different inputs and you know who's seeing what and who's approving what that you know, you really have to stay focused to get that original you know what you originally want to get all the way through to the end and and it's here so when this when when it finally becomes available. I'm excited to see it let alone excited for other people to see it.
Alicyn
Yeah, Evan was one of our, Evan Spiridellis was one of our first guests on this show.
Jordan Koch
He's amazing. Yeah, amazing.
Alicyn
Yeah, it's so funny. I mean, yeah, just to see what they've built since the Jib Jab days. Many years ago, I worked with them on Jib Jab.
Jordan Koch
Yeah I was a fan of that.
I was like, the body. They cut out my head. That's like one of my first acting gigs.
I loved the Jib Jab stuff in when I was in college and like, what a full circle thing and like that, that, that same approach that same, you know, like, if it's funny, it works, you know if it's funny, it's an you know that all of that stuff that you could just see from all that old JibJab stuff like, it's in this show, which is completely for a different audience. But that's, you know, Evan and Greg are just that good. So.
Alicyn
So how much of storyboarding then? Are you kind of? Does it feel like writing? Because especially in show where a lot of the jokes are visual gags, you're kind of putting a lot of that in. Right?
Jordan Koch
Right? Well, that kind of becomes the question of how do you define writing is that the verb of here's a legal pad and a pen, and I'm going to write down the list for the store or I'm going to, you know, or people sit down to write novels. You know, I'm a huge Indiana Jones fan and the screenplay, the original screenplay for Indiana Jones was written in longhand on yellow paper, and there's a there's an old Indiana Jones bonus feature where the screenwriter holds it up. And I'm like, Oh, my God. It's like that thick. And it's just like you and just says Raiders on the front, like blue pen. And you're like, imagine flipping through that, you know?
Alicyn
Yeah. He was like that like, liked to type.
Jordan Koch
Honestly. So like, so that's writing that is like the verb writing to write something down on paper, but like you just said, you know, with what we do, you know, if you're devising gags, or you're creating something that falls into the description of how our industry defines writing, you know, so you may not flesh it all out in a complete script, but, you know, creating something, you're coming, you know, you need a new solution to something or, you know, you know, what, this gag isn't working on time for this, can we get something shorter? You know, and it's like, well, what do you call that process, then?
You know, like, and that is, the closest thing is to calling it writing, you know, so it is writing, it's, it's directing, because you have to have some kind of vision for whatever you're doing, you know, and that's what directors do. It's choreography, you know? I've boarded songs, I've boarded things, and, you know, little sequences, but not just dance choreography, or music, but staging. And, you know, on The Loud House, we had, you know, 1211 characters, and they're all trying to get downstairs at the same time. Well, how are you choreographing that action you know?
It sounds super cliche when you say it all out loud, because we never talk about each of the different things, but there's so many moving parts in relating in relation to getting something up on its feet, you know, so yeah, I mean, there's, there's definitely, there's an element of writing, because, you know, when, when you think of a writer, they're creating ideas, they're, you know, and so it's the same concept, it's just that we deal more with drawings and less with specific words on a page, you know, but, but if a writer writes, you know, here's the get, you know, like, the, the ball is rolled on screen, you know, and collides with Tom, and he breaks apart into, that was the exact thought that I had, I just didn't, it just wasn't written out, it was just in my head, and then I just drew it, you know, so, it's, it's more like, when you describe it as thinking, you know, then that becomes the fork in the road.
So if the apex is thinking, when it becomes, do you execute it by drawing or by writing in words, you know, so when you realize it like that, then you see the difference between the two, but you also understand that it starts with a concept, a thought, something that has to be solved, and then there's those of us that solve it with drawings and others, it's all built with words. And then it will come back, you know, they'll write something and then it will come back and we'll turn into drawings and, you know, something maybe isn't working. So it goes back to writers and they toyed around with it a little bit here, try this, you know, so a lot of overlap.
But like you said earlier about being a jack of all trades, it extremely helps to, you know, have an idea of that, you know, it's not I don't just do close ups and wide shots and you know, storyboarding 101 lingo, you know, you have to, you have to have, I think you have to have like an inkling of writing and comedy and something that's visually interesting if you know, no disrespect to the writers but you know, if a cartoon is on a TV in another room, and you can't hear it, it still has to work it's still the expressions still have to be there the poses still have to be there from you know, from creation standpoint, like your characters should be exciting to look at. You know, when you think of The Simpsons the reason they're yellow was because cuz they would pop off the screen when people were clicking through, you know, and they'd see these bright yellow characters, and they would stop and go back to that channel. Like, all that stuff is very, you know, interwoven into all of this.
It's interesting. And so for artists that might be aspiring storyboard artists, what advice would you give them?
Personally, look at the look at the acting and the performance element of what we do, you know, because there's so many online courses, so many YouTube tutorials, there's books, there's podcasts, there's, you know, all kinds of stuff of, like I said, like, this is a close up, this is a wide shot, this is that, you know, but, but I'm given a script, and I have characters who have lines that have to perform those lines, and I have scenes where they're, you know, very emotional, or, you know, you have to build to certain things, you're going to reveal something at the end of the episode. And that's, that's filmmaking, that's, you know, acting, that's performance. That's, that's not just, Oh, me scribbling in my notebook, you know, like, I, in height, and in college, like, I found art history to be very boring, I, you know, it's just a bunch of gorgeous paintings, which is made by very, very long, departed people.
And it was just the fact matter of like, memorizing paintings, names, dates, paint, you know, Gothic period, Renaissance, and it wasn't something that interested. And, and on paper, I'm an artist by you know, and that shouldn't be interesting to me or going to museums should be interesting to me. But I was much more interested in watching, you know, like, I Love Lucy and the Golden Girls and, and seeing these characters and these personalities, and, you know, the scene with Lucy and the chocolates, and it's like, it's just so well done. It's just funny, it's funny, it's a funny concept, it's, it's funny how it's acted out. It's absurd the timing of it, you know, and all of this kind of stuff. And, and I love that stuff I love like, really just observing people, and, you know, oh, my gosh, this is so great. Like, we need to use this, you know, and things like that. And, and I love that element of it.
And I know that there's a lot of board artists and folks, you know, in the industry who are obsessed with just the art side of things, it's not that I'm it's not that I'm not, but I really do pull from us, like a lot of, you know, the performance, and you got to give something there for the audience to relate to because different from live action, I'm not on the screen, you know, so I have to make it all come through with characters and from a board position, they're going to be animated by somebody else. And so I got to pack my boards full of the expressions that I want the poses I want and you know, the clearer and the stronger they are, the better chance you have at that coming through the animation at the very end of it.
So yeah, I would personally recommend because there's gonna be plenty of people that recommend, you know, studying the classic films and things like that. And that's all super important. But, you know, don't don't discount the importance of comedy in cartoons, which, you know, sometimes gets lost, but it's like, no, like, you have to figure out like, you know, how do you tell a joke? What's the how does the punch line? How do you get things up?
Alicyn
You know, so did you ever study, you know, technique, comedy techniques, or?
Jordan Koch
I mean, I did a lot of other really, really bad art teacher in high school, who I just didn't like, and she was not very nice. She was very rude and her art class just, it was just kind of like an introduction to watercolors and introduction to this and there was nothing there. There was no, there was no substance there, you know. And so freshman year of high school, I just like switched focus to the theater, and I did plays and musicals all through high school. And when I think back to high school, and somebody said, What did you do? It was 100% Theater. You know, I had art classes. And I taught myself, Mike taught myself Photoshop when I was in high school, and I've always drawn and done things like that. But high school for me was 100%, about the theater, you know, and what it did was, it gave me material to work with and work from, which is what I do on a day to day basis.
Now, it put me in front of an audience, a live audience, getting their reactions and things like that you're dealing with sets, you're working with others. So when I started to break down everything that I learned by being involved with theater, it's surprisingly very similar to a lot of the stuff that I do now. So I pulled from that and then just observation, you know, just a lot of observing and how do people carry themselves what makes somebody you know, stand out, you know, is it like their hairstyles that a mustache is it you know, I was just in my, my brother got married this weekend. So I flew For the first time during the pandemic, since the pandemic started in the first time, I was in an airport since last February.
And, you know, there's so much people watching, you know, it's somebody who saw a guy who has shirt tie, suit, matching pants, but he was extremely disheveled. You know, and then there was somebody else who just had swept. I mean, it was a red eye, they had just had sweat pants on a neck pill. And I was like, How is it possible that the person wearing sweats with a neck pillow, and like noise cancelling headphones looks more together than somebody who's wearing like a three piece suit? And I love I love figuring those things out? Well, what's, what's that person have going on that they have a suit and a tie on at midnight, but they look not so great, and unexpected layover, because we're so trained to see well suit and tie, that means professionalism.
And that means Bob, but it was very, not much that so, you know, it's those little things, you know, it's why people are encouraged to sketch at coffee shops, and you know, but it's a signing traits or characters, you know, when you start to think where you're like, I wonder where he came, you know, like, is he late, didn't show not show up on time. I mean, he made the flight, but you know, and it's like, I love sort of falling down that rabbit hole of, you know, trying to figure people out when I've never met them, I'll never see that guy again. You know, things like that. So I think that has such an impact on not only my boring work, but you know, a lot of the stuff, the characters that I just post on Instagram, and you know, it's assigning personality, it's figure getting in the head of characters, not just, you know, here's how to draw SpongeBob.
So now you can draw him on the show, it's like, No, you really got to know SpongeBob This is the kind of character he is, these are the this is what he sets out to do every day. He's got a job, he's got a pet, he's got responsibilities, he's got a best friend. He's got an annoying neighbor, you know, it's like, it's so much more than just, you know, like, we're talking about The Loud House, Lincoln is a very easy character to draw. But he's not.
Not everybody gets him, you know, like, you still have to figure out who he is, where does he fit? You know, what makes him different than Hey, Arnold, or any of the other characters who were kind of like, you know, kids who are around 10 years old who have been in cartoons, you know, he's not the first he won't be the last. But what makes him stand out what makes him unique, you know, and I love that stuff. That's like doing a crossword puzzle. For me. That's like, the most fun in the world is like getting and playing with personalities and all that stuff, so...
Alicyn
Now, it seems like in this day and age, social media, and being able to share your work are so instrumental for artists starting out, what are the do's and don'ts for artists posting their work online and hoping that it leads to getting noticed or getting hired? If there's any don'ts?
Jordan Koch
I would say like a big a big don't is don't assume. Don't assume, Oh, I have 100,000 followers, you know, and that means I shouldn't be, I should have, like, everything that I you know, it's like, that's the that's non transferable. You know, I know artists who are unbelievable, and they maybe have 1000 followers, none of it matters. It doesn't matter, like numbers don't matter. It's all just you know, like that. So don't assume because you're posting three things. I'm posting three drawings a day, like, how have I not gotten hired yet? And you're like, well, it's not about how often do you post what are you posting?
You know, somebody posts are really not a well thought out drawing, but just like a page of cafe sketches that they post once a week, but those drawings are really strong?That that's better than posting three times a day and just having next to no con, you know, substance to your drawings there. So, I mean, social media is great, because it puts you in the pockets of people who are looking for artists, or, you know, when we started on The Loud House, a lot of our crew was, it was their first show, a lot of people were hired from having their work seen online, and, oh, they'd be a good fit, they'd be you know, you know, they do really well with this, like, let's bring them on board.
You know, it doesn't matter if they haven't been in the industry for decades, or things like that. It's like, No, I'm seeing, these are the things they post on Instagram, their drawings, and I feel like if they can do that, then they can do this. So let's reach out and see if they want to work on the show, you know, it's like, doesn't have to be complicated. So the other thing is, like, you know, like that cliche of like, dress for the job, you want kind of thing. It's like, draw for the job that you want.
You know, it's not to say that I couldn't work on like, a new version of Ninja Turtles, but it's not my forte, I'm not so much of an action board artist or, and I don't, those aren't the kinds of shows that I'm interested in watching, you know, let alone drawing you know, so you kind of figure those sorts of things out and you know, we've talked about comedy like Carol Burnett used to say like, you know, she would go on auditions when she was young and she would try out and she would try out.
There's a 1000 other girls there and you know, and she won't get the part. And, you know, it's easy to get disheartened, you know, discouraged in your job and in my in my job, but then she would say, well, somebody got in somebody's got this role somebody got hired. And that means that this was meant for them. And she was like, and if it was meant for them, then somewhere down the line, something will be meant for me. And it sounds really cliche, it sounds super.
But if you repeat it back, it's like, well, it does kind I mean, it gives you something to work towards, right. And I, you know, I applied for jobs for shows at the studios, and the loud house was the first show that hired me, and it was a really good fit for me. And then I saw people who, you know, submitted tests for the loud house, and they weren't a great fit, but they're gonna end up somewhere, they're gonna, you know, some they're gonna, they're going to be a great fit somewhere else.
And, and when you look at it that way, it's less about, you know, why are we all out in the cold, and there's only these people in there, and you're like, well, because they're, you know, shining on these things, and something's gonna come along, which is, you know, you have to work on this, somebody has to hire, you know, and, and if you're unavailable at that time, that shows going to be crushed, because they can't get you because you're going to be that good of a fit for, you know, so. So in that regard, I mean, you know, if you really want to work on Comedy things, and Cuphead, or Spongebob, or Mickey, or things like that, like, you know, can we see that in your drawings? I'm not saying you have to draw those characters. But, you know, can we see that thinking in your drawings, because that's how people end up in the places they end up?
You know, what I mentioned to some folks that I was leaving the loud house, and I was gonna go work on Tom and Jerry, I had so many people tell me, like all that sound, that's such a good fit for you. And it was so interesting to hear that because I was like, again, back to the dissecting back to the dissecting thing. I was like, Well, what is it about me and like you we know each other? And what is it that you think makes me a good fit? You know, and I love that, that somebody would think, Oh, this is a great fit for him, you know, to go work on this next.
And so I think there's, I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, working towards what you want to do the what brought me to LA was, I wanted to work in animation, but I wanted to work in TV and movies. I didn't want to do commercials or games or things like that. And there was some of that in New York and, you know, some family back in Pennsylvania, like, Well, New York, so much closer than LA and I was like, Yeah, but I don't want to do that. I want to you know, and the central hub of TV and movies is out here. So you sort of start to align yourself, you know, if like, if you're not, not in the mood for anything sweet, then get out of line at the ice cream place, you know, you start to you can position yourself in ways that you know, will help lead you to things that you're interested in, you know.
Alicyn
Awesome. Whoa, I can't believe how quick the hour has flown. Then so
Jordan Koch
The holidays, no less.
Alicyn
Happy holidays. Are you? Are you staying in town? Are you going to be with your lovely family?
Jordan Koch
We're staying in town. Yeah, we just I mean, weather was down in the 30s here today, like what could be more like, what could be more East Coast Christmas Eve than that?
Alicyn
I mean, I might get a little snow. It's supposed to be very, very rainy. A lot of people jumping on to say they're an aspiring animator, they love your work. It's always been a pleasure chatting with you and talking about cartoons. So I'm so grateful that you came on the show tonight.
Jordan Koch
Thank you for having me. Yeah. Anybody who's listening, you know, reach out if you have questions. And you know, I'm always happy to answer them. I always tell people, the more specific your questions are, the more specific my answers can be. I get people who ask me all the time, like, Do you have any advice?
And obviously, after this hour, like, yeah, I can give you something, you know, but then every now and then somebody who gets it will ask me a question like, you know, what prompts you to do so and so when a board or what, you know, what's the first thing you, you know, you do to try and act out a piece of dialogue. And, well, now you gave me something to talk about. Now, you know, you just told me that, you know, what you're talking about, because you brought something specific to the table. And I that that's always so much. There's so much more to come out of that because you're putting so much more into it, you know, so here on Instagram, you know, reach out and shoot me a message and I'll be happy to answer questions.
Alicyn
Yay! Well, I'm gonna go ahead for anybody that missed the early part. I'm gonna go ahead and post the replay right now. This is the last episode of the year. We're rounding out 2021 with a bang. And we are coming back with a relaunch, reboot and rebrand. And do guys, let's see something really, really special. This is the first time I showed anybody this and I'm going to share with you right now.
This is my brand new logo for the show. Mary Chavez at emotive has been working with me. She's a dear friend, and she's been working with me on my logo. And I want to show you guys what it looks like. I'll be posting this in a couple weeks, but you guys get a little sneak peek right here. So are you ready? Let's see. How can I zoom in on this? Doo doo doo doo doo doo? That's your hold music. Okay, ready? Here it is.
Jordan Koch
Yeah! How exciting!
Alicyn
I love it.
Jordan Koch
Amazing.
Alicyn
Yeah. So along with the rebrand is going to be we're going to be changing platforms and live streaming, we're going to be pre taping and then live streaming the replays on YouTube and Facebook, and maybe Twitch we'll see, so it's going to be able to reach a broader audience and not just the limited capacity for Instagram, which is more short form video.
So I'm really excited about this and have a lot of fun things in store. So if you're not already following me be great. If you want to see more. We have 12 guests lined up for season one. And some really amazing people from voice actors to writers and other storyboard artists, couple show creators and a casting director, so definitely make sure that you tune in. And thanks again. Jordan. It was so great chatting with you.
Jordan Koch
Thanks Alicyn.
Alicyn
It's been like yours, though. Thanks for doing this.
Jordan Koch
Of course. Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Alicyn
Okay, see you guys soon. Thanks for tuning in to Alicyn's Wonderland, where we explore the wild and wonderful world of animation and video games. Please remember to subscribe and leave us a review. For more episodes of Alicyn's Wonderland, please visit us at www.alicynpackard.com. See you next week.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai