Alicyn
Welcome to Alicyn's Wonderland. I'm your host, Alicyn Packard. Join us as we journey through the looking glass and down the rabbit hole into the wild and wonderful world of animation and video games.
Hey, do a girl a favor, and please subscribe to this podcast and go on iTunes and leave us a good review. If you like the show, please help spread the word. It really helps us to get heard by more people. Thanks so much. Hey guys, happy Wonderland Wednesday. And welcome to another episode of Inside Alicyn's Wonderland, starting to get into the groove of this whole Wednesday 6pm thing.
So I want to say thank you to everyone that's tuning in live. Hey, Carrie. Hey, Jeff, it's good to see you guys. We have a very special guest today. I'm really excited. Today we're going to sit down with the game director and narrative co lead on a brand new video game that just dropped today: The Outer World Peril on Gorgon, which is the new DLC for the Outer Worlds. We're winning video game by Obsidian that came out last year in 2019. And they just released a new DLC, so I'm really excited to have Carrie join us today. Carrie and I have never met in person. And she's obviously been working on this game for quite a long time.
Carrie Patel
Yes, I guess that's something that I didn't mention is that I actually did one of the voices on the game.
Alicyn
So that was really exciting. And Carrie has been, you know, working on this game probably quite a while, huh. Now you worked on the original Outer Worlds, right?
Carrie Patel
Correct.
Alicyn
Okay, so what was that process?
Carrie Patel
I mean, it was it was exciting. And it was it was definitely I think it definitely helped transition into this role. Having worked on the base game, as a Senior Narrative Designer, you know, I was familiar with the content, familiar, obviously, with, you know, the style of our narrative, the lore in the world. And that made it easier to understand, you know, what was going to be expected for DLC content, and to give players more of what they really enjoyed in the Outer Worlds. And you know, our story characters and you know, dialogue, were some of the most praised elements. So yeah, yeah. So that was -
Alicyn
You guys want a Nebula Award for writing?
Carrie Patel
We did.
Alicyn
So how many years did you work on that game?
Carrie Patel
Let's say I joined the outer worlds just before Pillars of Eternity two Deadfire shipped. So I believe that was around like April of 2018. And we shipped the Outer Worlds in October of 2019. And I rolled off of the you know, at the end, it's mostly mostly just a lot of bug fixing and polish stuff. So I was working on the DLC a little bit just just before that shipped.
Alicyn
But wow, if you guys are already prepping for that when the first thing was wrapping up.
Carrie Patel
We tried to I mean, it's, you know, it's obviously more challenging to manage multiple teams and to have multiple content teams going on at once. But the nice thing about game production processes as you get to the end, and you know, again, you're you're you do not have as much production work going on, you're not trying to build new things, you're really just trying to clean up the things you already have. It's easier to move people off of one project and onto something else.
Alicyn
Now a game like that, how many? How big is your team that's working on it? I mean, obviously, there's multiple components. How many people does it take to get a game like that?
Carrie Patel
Oh, I gotta think so. The team size fluctuates quite a bit over the course of development. I think on the base game, we had something like, maybe a bit over 80 people that may be closer to 90 people at the peak. For the DLC, wow, I think we had 35 maybe close to 40 at a certain point. But But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, usually, you've got kind of the bulge in the middle, you start lean with a, you know, your pre production team, you know, ramped up the most, you know, in the middle of production. And then again, once you get to the end, you start tapering off some more.
Alicyn
So how do you come up with story ideas? You guys work as a team?
Carrie Patel
We do. Yeah, and that's one of the really fun things about you know, working in games, and it being so collaborative. You know, we knew from the base game that there were particular aspects of the lore that we'd sort of hinted at, we hadn't really delved into fully and I think by the time we were really working on the DLC, we had a good idea of what kind of content you know, players responded well to and, you know, we know, between flavor and tone and also just, you know, the style of more open ended player driven stories that allow players to you know, try different things and really feel like they're, they're pushing things forward. So I think you start with a lot of criteria for what you want to make and how you want to make it and and you go from there and and see kind of what room you have to play in.
Alicyn
That's fun. How did you get into the whole gaming industry? Was this something you always wanted to do?
Carrie Patel
Sort of it's, you know, it's one of those things where I grew up enjoying video games and computer games and also...
Alicyn
Anything in particular that you loved?
Carrie Patel
You know, when I was young, I really liked the old Sierra adventure games like King's Quest and quest for glory. You know, you just a lot of it was typing stuff into the the text box, you know, and interacting with the world that way. And it's very interesting to look back at the design of those games, because they're very punishing, in a way, it's very easy to, to miss something that's important in a way that you don't necessarily know. And I feel like one thing, you know, we've that I certainly see, you know, designers make taking great care with nowadays is, you know, trying to be very, very fair and careful with the player so that you're not letting people back themselves into quarters that they can't see if that makes sense.
Alicyn
Yeah, I, yeah. It does make sense to me, because you don't want to trap someone down and that there is no recovery.
Carrie Patel
Exactly, exactly.
Alicyn
Or maybe you do, maybe you're like a sadistic game.
Carrie Patel
I mean, you know, I think you always like it is fun to surprise players. But I think players have a very finely tuned sense of fair, and, you know, I, some games, I always admired games that managed to, I guess, challenge players in ways that remain fair, you know?You when you look back, and you say, Oh, I made a mistake here. But the signs were there the game. The game taught me what to do. But, you know, in the moment, I let this other instinct get the better of me. Very sophisticated about that now.
Alicyn
And so did you study video games in school or?
Carrie Patel
I did not. I would say I studied International Relations, English and Spanish. In school, I worked at an accounting firm for a couple years. And then I focused on my own writing for a couple of years. And I enjoyed, I enjoyed working on my own writing, but I didn't miss the collaborative aspect, you know, working, working with other people working with a team. And so I honestly got very fortunate as to when I applied at Obsidian and you know, the timing there is they were looking to hire for some someone for the first Pillars of Eternity game. And I had a short story sample that I think stylistically, was in line with what they were looking for in a writer. And yet, I've been here ever since.
Alicyn
And so you have for our viewers that don't know you have a trilogy out, The Recoletta Series. Am I pronouncing that correctly?
Carrie Patel
Yes.
Alicyn
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Carrie Patel
Sure. So it's it's sort of a speculative fiction mystery thriller type series. The first one is called the buried life. And it takes place in an underground city where the study of history is outlawed. And it's, I think the genre actually changes a little bit from one book to the next as the the situation the characters are in evolves. I know that sounds rather vague. I'm trying not to give too much away, though, for anyone who hasn't picked it up. But yeah.
Alicyn
And where can we pick it up?
Carrie Patel
Anywhere books are sold Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your local independent bookseller?
Alicyn
That's amazing. Yeah. So So you started with? Did you always know that it was going to be a trilogy? Or did you start with one book, and it just sort of became a trilogy?
Carrie Patel
I started with one and had a vague idea of, well, this might be fun to write more. And then remember, when I when I submitted it to Angry Robot who ended up publishing it, they, you know, they were looking at, I think, a revision or something, and they got back to me, and they said, hey, you know, we like the full manuscript. Question. Have you thought about writing any sequels to this? And then it's like, well, the correct answer is yes. Yes, of course. I have. Great. Well, can you send us the you know, the outline? Sure. And then you write the outline!
Alicyn
What amazing good fortune though.
Carrie Patel
I know. Yeah.
Alicyn
Especially I wonder what your old bosses at the accounting firm. Were thinking when you were like, "Peace, guys!"
Carrie Patel
I, you know, I realized I was I was very fortunate to have the support I did with my spouse, and to be in a good position to be able to do that. But yeah, it was, you know, I realized that the, the accounting firm just wasn't quite the right fit for me. And I was just very lucky to be able to move into something and try something that I liked a lot better.
Alicyn
Do you have any advice for a young Carrie or another person out there that might be at that accounting firm and looking to segue or somebody young just starting out?
Carrie Patel
I guess, I would say don't like don't cut all those tethers immediately, like I wrote for years, you know, while I was in school while I was, you know, working in accounting, basically, you know, before I said, let me just let me just take some time and try to really focus on that, and in a lot of ways it was harder and more frustrating than I think I expected it to be I think it's easy to expect, oh, well, if I can write this many words in, like the time that I carve out, right now, if I have this much more time, can you take that factor, I'll make that many more words, is not always the case. Structure is really important, you know, in in a lot of ways, like I was still writing, when I went to when I came over to Obsidian, I finished my second and third books while I was working here. And it was, you know, obviously finding the time for that was a challenge. But I do believe that having to develop that structure around my writing time was super helpful.
Alicyn
That's so interesting. So yes, I'm just so curious. Now, you started as you know, a co lead and working on the Outer Worlds, and then you became the game director. Now i i Just curious, how would you define your and for those of you guys that are just joining him, where we're interviewing Carrie Patel, who is the game director, and narrative co lead on the new Outer Worlds Peril to Gorgon DLC that just dropped today. So I'm curious, just what does that entail? Because I know there's also like a director that directs the actors, but that's different than that overall game director. So how does that... How do those jobs break down?
Carrie Patel
So the game director is basically the creative vision holder for the project, you know, you're you're partnered with the, an executive producer, basically, they're, they're the production side of project leadership. And, you know, the game director decides, is sort of in charge of, you know, setting out what we're making, and the production director is in charge of, you know, figuring out how we're going to make it in time, you know, and they run the schedule, and they, they help us understand the resources that we have, so that we know what we can make and polish and deliver on.
And it's actually a really awesome partnership. So you know, it's, it's tricky, because before I started doing this job, I think I was under the impression of like, oh, man, but you know, I don't know when I would know enough about programming, and art, and writing, and level design, and audio and all these things. Because I just assumed that like, the game director has to know everything about everything. But yeah, of course, that's not true. Because almost nobody in the industry has that breadth of experience in so many discrete disciplines.
So I think a lot about succeeding in the job is about some of it is delegation, but some of it is also understanding what you don't know, understanding how to ask the questions to get what you need to know. And then like figuring out, what's the stuff I need to know to make a decision around this. And let me get that information, instead of assuming that I'm going to come out of this conversation with full knowledge of programmings pipelines.
Alicyn
That's so interesting. Yeah. And so then I assume, just the more you do it, the more your depth grows, you already have this breadth of knowledge, and then you become even deeper with that. That's amazing.
Carrie Patel
That is one of the nice things about you know, starting in direction on a DLC is because, you know, there's a lot about the infrastructure in the architecture of your game that is already figured out and stuff that you don't, you don't have to reinvent the wheel on. But yeah, there's so much already that just, you know, having gone through this one time, it's like, okay, I know, in the future, you know, these are things to these are things to do. These are things to ask about things to look for. And yeah, a lot of it like you said, you really just do get that by experience and practice.
Alicyn
Hey, guys, this is Alicyn Packard. Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to let you know that if you like the show, please, please, please remember to subscribe to this podcast. And leave us a review on iTunes. It really helps us to get heard by more people. Thanks so much.
Now I see OverhypedGamer, you don't don't worry about looking at the comics if you need to. I'll keep an eye on them. But he said it's one of the best writing and stories he's ever experienced. So that's a huge compliment. For those people that have not downloaded the DLC yet. Do you want to give them like a brief overview of what what happens in the story?
Carrie Patel
Sure. So Peril in Gorgon is in working to DLC for the outer worlds. It is primarily on the Gorgon asteroid in Halcyon. And it you you, you get into it through an old friend of Alex Hawthornes. And you're sent on a journey to now shut down Spacers Choice Research facility where they were spacers choice was developing a drain of time and a wealthy heiress played by you, Alicyn Packard basically wants you to help find closure around her mother who was the lead researcher who was blamed for the project's failures. So it's, it's a very personal story for the characters involved, but it's also a story about you know, the setting of Halcyon and how certain things got to be the way they are.
Alicyn
And how did you kind of, tonally, I feel like it's very unique. And I love the space that you're living in. I'm curious how you kind of extended what was set with Outer Worlds in terms of like sarcasm and you know, that whole, the comedy within sort of the, the unfolding of the story, how you balance that with the new DLC, which kind of has this more noir vibe?
Carrie Patel
Yeah, so I think one thing there. So when we were when we were looking at, you know, kind of developing our story pitch for the DLC, one idea that came from Kate Dollarhide, our other narrative co lead on the project was basically the idea of the Manhattan Project. And this idea of these very brilliant people who worked on something that is, in many ways terrible, and then how they like, what the, what the aftermath of that is, you know, both personally and for the world that they live in. And so there was a lot there that just for us, I think, like totally and stylistically, synced very well with the outer worlds as, you know, a setting that's actually very dark, despite being despite having a lot of light hearted humor, you know, the idea that corporate ambition is what drives you know, what drives most most things, and Halcyon
Alicyn
In America? Oh, sorry, Halcyon.
Carrie Patel
Right, it does feel very different making this in 2020. But yeah, yeah, and so they're just there seem to be a lot of a lot of overlap between those spaces. And as far as sort of the pulp noir, you know, one of the things that I think is very fun about the outer worlds, aesthetically, is the pulp sci fi approach. And I think there are a few flavors of sort of pulp noir that intersect with that space, just enough so that I think we were able to hit and also very much thanks to the excellent art direction of Matt Hanson, a really nice blend of something that meshes with the base game, but still feels a little bit stylistically distinct, which I think is a nice balance for DLC to hit.
Alicyn
Mm hmm. And so to talk a little bit more about Matt and his design, what do you know about his process and approaching the new worlds and the new characters?
Carrie Patel
So I know, you know, with with it being a little more noir themed, we wanted to have a lot of fun with like, you know, light and shadow and kind of the strong contrasts in our areas. And Gorgon is an asteroid. It's, you know, like, it's an asteroid. It's this canyon with these big dramatic walls. And, you know, both visually and tonally things, they're very shady. But then there are these very bright, vivid pockets of like, you know, this fungal cover grass, that it's very visually distinct in the over lands. And you know, that the facades of the different spacers choice facilities, you know, very opulent and really stand out in the environment. And so I think for him, one thing he said is, exploring those contrasts was a good way to get, you know, to kind of develop some of those different ideas.
Alicyn
Great, yeah, I think a lot of people really resonated with as overhype gamers saying, the characters and just you end up feeling empathy and a strong connection to them. Well, as you're going through the game, and I think for those of you the original outer worlds was the Nebula Award winner for Best Writing in a video game in 2019, I believe. And you were also nominated for a WGA Award for Best Writing, so you're just like cleaning up. That's amazing was in which for that was for which game? The W...
Carrie Patel
That was Four Pillars of Eternity and Deadfire.
Alicyn
Okay, cool. So now the statistics I was looking at, like some of the statistics of women that work in video games, and that what I was looking at is in development worldwide in 2019, it was about 25%. So does that ring true with what you have seen an experience?
Unknown Speaker
It's hard to say. I mean, every every studio is a little bit different. Obviously. You know, I think I think more women are definitely finding opportunities in the industry right now. But certainly, in my experience, there are more guys in the industry at this point. But you know, I think we're getting I think we're getting more diverse, which is fantastic.
Alicyn
And you also mentioned Kate, which was one of your co writers, I believe you're and another woman on the project. So it seems it seems that Obsidian for sure is bringing, you know diverse female voices and some different voices to the forefront. have you faced any challenges in work being a woman working in the videogame industry?
Carrie Patel
Personally, I've been very fortunate. You know, I know we're having a reckoning with a lot of a lot of stories of what some women in the industry have faced. I've been lucky to be very supported in my career to have a very healthy work environment and to have, you know, the support of some really great mentors, you know, who treat me with a lot of professionalism and respect and it really encouraged me to grow my career here.
Alicyn
Was there any mentors in particular early in your career that sort of change this script for you?
Carrie Patel
Let's see. Well working on pillars I worked a lot with Eric Fenstermaker, who was the narrative lead on the first project and with Josh Sawyer, the game director on both projects, and I've learned so much from the two of them and been incredibly empowered by both of them.
Alicyn
Now, for anybody that for anyone that's just tuning in, we're with Carrie Patel. She's the designer, you never know who's just jumping in. She's the game director and narrative co lead on the new outer world. And look, TheOuterWorlds just commented that it feels nostalgic and comfortable to be back for the game that think that's the outer world fan page, I believe. So yeah. Thanks for tuning in. Now, for anybody that is curious, maybe tuning in for the first time it doesn't have the outer worlds, can they access the DLC? or They? They? They buy the original game and then purchase the DLC? How does that work?
Carrie Patel
You do have to buy the original game. The the DLC is not a standalone, it's content that you access through the main game. And for anyone who has played you can start at any time between the the end of the monarch critical path at the end of Radio Free monarch and then your point of no return save that's generated at the very end of the the base game.
Alicyn
Okay. Yeah and then what platforms is it available on today?
Carrie Patel
Xbox PC and PlayStation.
Alicyn
Somebody is asking if there'll be a version of the game for PS5?
Carrie Patel
I don't really know. I know. Next Gen discussions, unfortunately.
Alicyn
And is it going to be coming in Nintendo Switch too?
Carrie Patel
Yes, it will be.
Alicyn
Okay. Cool. And so for our listeners that are looking to connect with you personally, I know you're not super active on Instagram. How can they kind of follow follow up about your writing and you know, everything that you have going on in your world?
Carrie Patel
The best way would be on Twitter. I'm at Carrie underscore Patel.
Alicyn
Okay. And is that just the regular spelling? Okay, P-A-T-E-L.
Carrie Patel
Yes, yes. No, no three in my name is I have for Instagram.
Alicyn
Hi guys, now I'm upside down. So is there anything else about the game that you would like to share?
Carrie Patel
I'm really excited for players to discover it for themselves. I know we put a lot of you know, a lot of heart and to what we made, I think there's a lot of fun, a lot of humor, a really exciting new world and Gorgon and just a lot of attention to the details in the visual storytelling and in the way that we try to, to build our characters and their story through, you know, a lot of the side and found content. And there are some, there is one particular hidden path through the game, that players who try to color outside the lines a little bit may discover I'm super proud of really embraces the kind of player freedom that we try to offer with our with our RPGs. But I don't want to spoil that I want people to discover that for themselves.
Alicyn
You heard it here first, folks.
Carrie Patel
You might know what I mean, though. Yeah.
Alicyn
I might have been I would never say and so moving forward, then do you just go on vacation? I mean, not that we can really go to many places. But are you already rolling in? Or are you continuing to work on the outer worlds from this point on as we patch forward?
Carrie Patel
So next week, I'm working - I'm going on vacation? Yeah, the first vacation I've taken like outside of the you know, holidays, since quarantine just planning to, you know, say local, maybe do some hikes, just, you know, some simple, isolated things like that. And then yeah, after that, I'll be helping out with the second DLC, which will be coming a little bit later.
Alicyn
Yeah, that's exciting. Is there anything you can tell us about that?
Carrie Patel
Nope.
Alicyn
You know, we - one step at a time, guys. definite time. Well, that's very exciting. Does anyone that's tuning in right now have any specific questions for Carrie? Or about the game that maybe she can answer, but potentially, we've already taken that? The question about PS five with anybody else? I'm just a little I'm curious as so your average day, what is your average day look like?
Carrie Patel
You know, it changes a ton from one phase of production to the next. And, you know, I like I look at, you know, my days, these last few weeks, and then I think back to, you know, what the day looks like even you know, two months ago, and it's night and day, you know, when I'm, when I'm wearing my narrative designer hat, it's a lot of, you know, reviewing story, more documents or writing those things.
Let's see a lot of writing character dialogue, testing and playing in game to make sure that we're telling and then, you know, direction, it's a lot of, you know, reviewing the content that's going in all across the game, a lot of meetings to you know, keep up with the various developers and departments that are working on the content, make sure everybody's on the same page, you know, make sure that I know where the content is at any given time.
Yeah, it's it's definitely exciting, I think definitely more so than any other role I've been in with direction every day feels different. Because, you know, you're really a lot of it is solving problems. And so you know, you spend your time on whatever needs to be accomplished, right, then
Alicyn
Is it very stressful?
Carrie Patel
It can be. It's stressful and exciting. Because again, on some level, you're responsible for things that you are not necessarily an expert in, definitely things you got an expert in. But you have to figure out how to gain enough familiarity with the underlying problem, to help make good decisions.
Alicyn
It's also... it's interesting to have a career where you really have a completion and you have an end date, you have a launch date, and then it's out there. I mean, yeah, that's so exciting. But so much of your, you know, your work and life energy has gone into this project. And now, here it is, today's your day. Congratulations, by the way.
Carrie Patel
Thank you! And congratulations too!
Alicyn
Thank you. Richard Anthony Granger was wondering if you had any personal inspirations for Peril on Gordon,
Carrie Patel
You know, can I think, I think the idea of sort of this, we wanted to play with the idea of pulp noir, but not take it in like the, you know, lowercase c cyberpunk direction, just, you know, wanted to find something that had sort of a more old school pulpy feel that seemed in sync with the outer worlds. And again, I think Kate's, you know, more narrative inspiration around the Manhattan Project and telling a story of complex characters and their regrets, or lack thereof, I think was really interesting to me.
Alicyn
And then another question was asking him this really good question. How is what are the challenges of working in the current situation with quarantine, and not being able to go into the office?
Carrie Patel
Wholeness? Yeah, that changed a ton for us. Yeah, we went, we went home for quarantine. I think like the second week in March, maybe, which was, you know, it feels like such a long time ago, we've done we've been working a ton in the office. But we have done more of our production, like more of our development process for Gorgon has taken place at home than it did at the office, which is kind of think about, it definitely meant that we all had to be more proactive about communicating. So I think a lot of ways definitely, you know, improved our communication habits, you know, because you knew you had to go out of your way to make sure.
With people I mean, the downside of the most part, our mornings would be just full of Quick Sync meetings. So it is, it would be hard to just focus and get something done. But on the other hand, I think, you know, again, especially with everyone in the office being split up now we managed to, to stay connected very well, you know, we took our workpiece most of us took our work PCs home, some people would VPN.
And if they had a machine that could do what they needed to do got webcams and headsets so that we can, you know, talk like this on a regular basis multiple times a day, but yeah, it's it is, it is really impressive how much the team was able to stay on track despite the setback, and I think the studio has been very supportive to work with in terms of, you know, helping us get the equipment, we need to be effective from home and also just making time and space for people to, you know, attend to sick family members, you know, take care of their own business, you know, child care, family needs anything else like that.
Alicyn
Absolutely. Wow. Well, it really takes a village and they say, great, well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us.
Carrie Patel
Thank you for having me.
Alicyn
I'm really impressed. And congratulations. So
Carrie Patel
Thank you so much.
Alicyn
I'm excited to see the next DLC too. But I can't wait to see this one first. So let me know if you need anything guys. A collector's edition. One suggestion for Outer World's to make a collector's edition for fans. Rapid and gold I don't know maybe include include a bit of space rock with it?
Well, thank you guys so much. I'll post this broadcast so that you can go back if you missed the beginning and access it at any time. And thank you so much, Carrie for coming and chatting with us.
Carrie Patel
Thank you.
Alicyn
Have a great rest of your day.
Carrie Patel
You too.
Alicyn
Okay, bye.
Outro
Thanks for tuning in to Alicyn's Wonderland, where we explore the wild and wonderful world of animation and video games. Please remember to subscribe and leave us a review. For more episodes of Alicyn's Wonderland. Please visit us at www.AlicynPackard.com See you next week.