Alicyn
If you're an avid indie gamer, there's no doubt you've heard of the lightning fast first person shooter neon white, which is getting amazing reviews from everyone. I'm so excited because I play neon red, but I'm even more excited because today we have the game creator, Ben Esposito, as well as the game producer Geneva Hodgson's, and I want to welcome you to the show. Welcome to Alison's Wonderland. You're watching Alison's Wonderland inside the world of animation and games.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you for having us. Yeah. Thank you.
Alicyn
Yeah. So okay, spoiler alert. You guys are real life married couples? Yep. It's amazing because my husband and I have different last names too. Which is cool, because you can kind of be incognito. When you're like confessional name. Yeah, we are we are we colleagues, or are we more than? So how did you guys meet?
Unknown Speaker
Wow, it was at a party.
Unknown Speaker
This is actually at a Sonic the Hedgehog themed Valentine's Day party.
Unknown Speaker
It was great. It was kind of a mix of a lot of my friends who are video game people and a lot of Geneva's friends who are comics and animation people. And everyone can bond over Sonic the Hedgehog.
Alicyn
Tails to the wrist. So Was it love at first sight or it took a little while? Yeah, we
Unknown Speaker
were friends for a while. We became really good friends.
Alicyn
Yeah. Amazing. And is this the first time you guys have actually worked together?
Unknown Speaker
No, actually. We work together on a little game called tattletale.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, tattletale. It's a indie horror game that came out in 2016. Is that your first game? That was no, not the first game I worked on. But what was the first game I released independently? Wow. Like, Yeah, cuz that team was me. Geneva and our friend Tom. And we made that Yeah. 2016. And it's I don't know if you haven't heard of it. It's a Furby inspired horror game. So you have to take care of a little purple. Cute little creepy doll. And you have to kind of survive the night while he's crying and attracting a more scary creature around the house.
Alicyn
Oh, my gosh, where did you come up with that idea?
Unknown Speaker
Where do we come? Well, I was pestering you to make a Christmas horror game for like months beforehand. It was a Christmas
Alicyn
for each other.
Unknown Speaker
Do you use got all the good ideas? That's the same thing is with neon white, where nitch Geneva turned to me. And she said neon white. And I'm like, What do you mean? She's like, that'd be a cool name for a game, right?
Alicyn
So that was the name. So interesting.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. She just randomly blurted out the name. And then we figured out what it was after that.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, we were like, well, he'd be really cool. He would be an assassin. Maybe he'd be in heaven. We just got really excited about the idea of an assassin in heaven.
Alicyn
Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
we came up with the premise within like five minutes after that. And then we were just like, Oh, that'd be cute. But you know, whatever. Maybe someday, I don't know. And then we ended up making it because it was it just like stuck around.
Alicyn
Oh, my gosh, so how long before when you when you had the idea to actually making the idea? How long was that process?
Unknown Speaker
What was? When did you come up with that idea?
Unknown Speaker
I want to say the words neon White came out of my mouth, when we were on our way home from a trip to Sequoia 2016.
Unknown Speaker
Fernando I think so. Wow. So it must have been kicking around for a few years then. And then I had a prototype for a game that was somewhat similar to what ended up being neon white. And we weren't sure what the theme would be. And then I was kinda like, I was about to drop the project because it wasn't working out. And then we figured out, you know, oh, this should be a speed based game. This is really cool gameplay. And that's when we were like, oh, we should just make it me on white. That would be awesome. And so yeah, that's when the to the like the theme and the gameplay emerged. And that was 2019.
Alicyn
That's so amazing. Because, you know, I don't know if you've read Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic, or are aware of this concept. Because as soon as I read this in the book, I was like, yes, that like ideas are out there. And you know, they come up and they kind of knock at you. And I kind of threw you Are you open? Are you an open channel? And if not, they go on to the next person, which is why a lot of creatives have a similar idea. And at the same time, and you're like, oh, like, Well, you didn't answer the phone.
Unknown Speaker
We've been talking about this concept a lot where two people generally get the same kind of idea at the same time. Yeah. And sometimes you see, like two movies come out that have kind of the same premise. But they are done in different ways. Yeah, there's something in the air, like at certain times, when Yeah, if you're receptive to it, it'll hit you the same time hit someone else.
Alicyn
And I feel like this game is so in the zeitgeist. I mean, for the first when I picked up the sides and read it, I was like, oh, you know, Wow, it really resonated and it just has cool I would say it was the first thing I was like, this looks cool. Um,
Unknown Speaker
what did you think about red? Oh, I
Alicyn
loved red. I was like, I Yeah, but I Okay, so I read for red violet and Gabby I also like really like, my read for Gabby. I felt like it was just like really fun. But read I was like, she's my girl. Like you you just you know, characters come out and sometimes you surprise yourself and sometimes they just more feel like home. And this one more felt like home
Unknown Speaker
I really Yeah,
Alicyn
I mean, I remember auditioning for this and like getting really excited.
Unknown Speaker
You can really feel that it feels like home because if you don't mind me complimenting you on the air. Like I really I was nervous about casting read because she's, you have to love her so much. And she has to be this very specific balance of like kind of dry, a little weary and very, like, otherworldly beautiful at the same time. And when we heard your audition, like right away, I was just like, like antennas, you know, picked up I was very excited about it.
Alicyn
Interesting. Yeah, it's like just my normal voice. But you know, that the essence right, the different qualities and characters that people bring. I was like, because she has kind of a femme fatale. I've done a lot of femme fatales but some younger and she's kind of more mature and has, yeah, that weariness. You know, at this this day and age as a mom. Which by the way, I'm so funny you guys were gonna come on the show a couple months ago and had to cancel last minute. Because you went and had a baby. Congratulations on being parents. Yeah. Thank
Unknown Speaker
you so much.
Alicyn
How's that been? I'm having a big game release at the exact same time as the big life event. Okay, I
Unknown Speaker
don't recommend it.
Unknown Speaker
I can't advise launching a game and having a baby at the same time. Do you know do
Unknown Speaker
separately both great but near the near the to show me? Yeah, it was a little rough. But it was, it was great once we got the hang of everything. And once the game was finally out, we got to like, kind of breathe that sigh of relief of like, okay, it's in the world.
Alicyn
It was literally I remember reading the press release for Nintendo. And then that, did that happen the same week or like the same to two weeks.
Unknown Speaker
So we the game was submitted to Nintendo which is done in advance of it releasing the game was submitted to Nintendo on the same day that our son was born. So like that the email went out the same day that he was born. It
Unknown Speaker
was literally like an hour later. Like I Ben sent the email he pressed send. And then my water broke within the hour. It was
Unknown Speaker
we couldn't help but laugh. It was just it was pretty funny.
Alicyn
At least it was an hour after and not an hour before. Oh my God, I know. We're like I'm busy honey.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, we were thankfully able to just put it aside. Nothing about it for a few days.
Alicyn
Wow. And that the fan response to this game has been incredible. How fun. Were you surprised?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, like we we loved the game. And we knew it was a blast. And we love the characters and we gameplay and but we knew that like, you know, the game's not really oriented to like everyone the same way that you know, my last game donut County was meant for like adults and kids to play together. It was kind of like an all ages thing. Man, right is more like phrase by phrase. That's why we say that. Yeah, it's like we want to we want it to hit the people who it's for as hard as we could and as genuinely as we could. And it seems like we totally did.
Alicyn
Yeah, yeah. And there's even a Discord server where fans gather and hang out and talk about the game and more about the gameplay of the game things
Unknown Speaker
24/7 They're great. Yeah, they're it's a blast to be part
Alicyn
of that deep down any q&a is on there anything.
Unknown Speaker
We have like a channel where they can ask us questions. We try to answer questions when we can, but also like, we want to maintain a little bit of distance because it's also like their community. It's not just right when mommy and daddy like in the discord.
Alicyn
I'm pretty sure i Mommy. Yeah, no, exactly. It's like you want people to have the freedom to create their own community.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, you don't want to tell people how to enjoy things too much. You know.
Alicyn
Do it more vaguer faster. Yes. So yeah, people would say your other game donut County was chill and wholesome. Like, don't everybody Yeah, and so and now this is like such a different fan base. But a lot of people you know, that articles that I've been reading and stuff people are saying like, it's my Game of the Year and like, it's amazing. Yeah, and the gameplay is smooth and stuff. Are you guys playing actively or have you just played the crap? I'd have it and
Unknown Speaker
I mean, I still enjoy the game for sure. Like I, as a part of making the game, one of the last things I did was I replayed it and I got the best metals that I could for every single level. And in the game, there's like bronze silver, and a smet a golden ace metal. But there's one that's secret. That's a red metal red one. Yeah. And if you get that, that was my best time, right before we shipped the game. However, whenever I go back to the game, I get a better time. And I'm like, I want to
Alicyn
do and like who's like getting the fastest times now? Or people just, oh, is it crazy? Are they totally beating you?
Unknown Speaker
I can't even compare. I look when I do my best. I'm like number 800 on the leaderboard. But that's like going up like that is not getting I'm not getting better at the game than people are.
Unknown Speaker
There are a lot of people who are extremely good at video games.
Alicyn
Wow. Yeah, yeah, just take one glance at YouTube, but to see the mind blowing. Its kids sharpen your thumb skills, I'm saying. So people aren't that aren't in video games or know nothing about the industry might not understand the difference between an indie dev or like, you know, a studio game. I'm not even sure that I understand the difference to be honest. Can you explain that to me?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So there, the term indie game developer is kind of outdated now, because there's kind of a much more broad spectrum of people making games at a small scale. Yeah. So like, for example, you know, Donut County was made by a team of mostly one with like, a handful of other people helping out every once
Alicyn
in a while one person coding like, yeah, totally want. That's fine. It
Unknown Speaker
took me six years.
Alicyn
Wow.
Unknown Speaker
But yeah, so that's like, on the smallest scale, but also, I had a publisher, and so they were able to help out, you know, porting it to different consoles and stuff. So you know, indie used to mean no publisher,
Alicyn
you did it all yourself, like IndieCade. Like, yeah, it's
Unknown Speaker
like, independent of the system, essentially. And, you know, there, it's become a lot more fuzzy recently. And so, you know, you have these super tiny teams that do team up with publishers, because they can have a much bigger reach. But the game is still like, this little weird, authentic nugget that one to five people made. So yeah, no, it's much bigger than donut County, neon White had, you know, 18 different people touch the game at certain points still, though. That's crazy. Yeah. And different, different size teams at different times. Yeah, it's been it's been really cool to scale up to that point. I think we're still in the in the echelon. Yeah, we don't have like 100 or 400 people working on it.
Alicyn
And you guys are working on it together. Right. So it's, I mean, I don't know, who pays who. But, you know, you have to help and support actually, funnily enough, you guys brought in a lot of people you've previously worked with. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like for neon, so Geneva you worked on? Okay. Kayo. I did as well. And some of the people from that show have gone on to work with you on neon light? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
I mean, well, the writer of the game, Ryan Shannon, she was a very important part of okay, Kayo she was a storyboard er and writer with me on the team for she was on there the whole time, two or three seasons. And she's incredibly talented, and she has a knack for characters. And she also like, has this talent for like, over the top writing, and she's also very funny, and her tone was just perfect for this game. Like, as soon as we had the ability to bring her on, I was really thrilled to have her on board and shirt inside is just super valuable. So Ryan, obviously really important part of the game, but also in Jones quartey. My old boss, Voice of neon yellow.
Alicyn
It comes full circle.
Unknown Speaker
But yeah, it was it was so much fun to work with both of them again. I mean, if I could work with, okay, Kayo people forever. I would I love them so much. I miss him so much. And also lots of people from okay Kayo worked on the animated intro to neon. Why
Alicyn
the anime intro? That was so cool. Okay, yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Several of my colleagues from okay Kayo worked on the animation itself like Jeff Liu and Max Collins. cofee. I don't know, I'm just I could talk on and on about how great everybody who worked on it was like, I love everyone from Kayo they're all so talented.
Alicyn
Yeah, it's so amazing. And did you also bring in any previous people that you'd worked with as well?
Unknown Speaker
Oh, lots of Yeah, yeah. I mean, I have you know, some of my best friends are also game developers and we Go back years and years, we went to college together. So where'd you go to school, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in upstate New York? Fantastic, oldest engineering school in the country. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So I made a few friends there that we've kind of we've been working together for years near. So my friend Russell honors, he is a good designer and programmer. He's like a jack of all trades, too. So he helped out with the game. And, you know, our friend Tom was also, you know, additional programming and stuff like that. But I also got to work with a lot of new people, which is really nice. And I wanted to work with people who were kind of newer in the like, design world. Yeah, because it was we wanted to get people who like one had kind of a fresh take on things, but to like, I feel like I got kind of lucky and indie games where like, I was kind of selected out of, you know, out of nowhere to come work in LA, from New York. And, you know, a lot of people helped me out along the way. And so what I wanted to do is like, build a game with people who are kind of new and give them some experience and the sense of like, here's what it's like to design levels for video game. And so it was it was really, really fun to work with new people because they are just so excited. They had brought so much energy to it.
Alicyn
Oh my god. So well. Is there any talk of a sequel or like a new game because it's getting so much love?
Unknown Speaker
We love that it's getting so much love. But right now there's no plans for for sequel
Alicyn
dance. Right? Right in in Geneva. So let's talk about the music by machine girl. Because how cool is that you have a whole album for neon white, and we have to get some of the songs on Tik Tok. By the way, I was like, I can't find them. But how did that collaboration come about?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that was we were talking about the soundcheck a few years ago. And originally I was going to do it myself, when it was a smaller game as bit tick. Just because I was going to do it doesn't mean it was going to be good. So when we kind of started talking about, oh, this is going to be a bigger deal. We're going to do voice acting, we're gonna like really expand this concept. And that's when we made a list of like, who we want to make the music for this game who'd be perfect. And at the top of the list was machine girl who is this band. I've been a fan of since like, 2015, I think, wow. And you know, they had put out an album that was kind of in the right vibe for what ended up being the unwise music. So we just sent them an email. We were like, do you wanna make a game soundtrack? And they're just like, sure. Awesome. Like, it's so funny. Everyday easy. Yeah. Like, every time we work with musicians, like it's funny how excited they are about the idea of working on a video game. Yeah. And it's like, I think it's just a different challenge. And you know, totally different mindset.
Alicyn
Yeah. And think about if you want to get in someone's head, if you want your music to be stuck in someone's head, put it in a video game. I wake up middle of nights and nights and like, did it? Yes. I mean, how many the Castlevania that? Yeah. Burns into your mind writes into your mind. But that's cool. Yeah, it was a it was a
Unknown Speaker
great, great process. And we did it over a few years. It was like during the pandemic, so they weren't touring. Really? Yeah. So there was a lot more time to kind of just develop stuff and kick things over
Alicyn
the wall. And is that how you were you would work with they send something to you or you give them like a
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, it was kind of it was actually pretty interesting. We started out and they sent over a huge list of unfinished music that was just never released. That was just totally irrelevant. They're just like, I don't know, does any of this stuff sound cool? And so we picked out like a bunch of stuff from there that were like, Oh, this is the right feeling like, can you develop this? And then so I would say by the end of it, about 50% of the music was based on something that already existed that they just didn't know how to do it. Yeah. And then the other 50% was, like, scored specifically for the game.
Alicyn
Wow. And have they given you any feedback about the game? Or are they playing it at
Unknown Speaker
all? They didn't really play until it came out.
Alicyn
You guys need to have a party. And then just like, it's everybody just playing the game. We're just sitting around
Unknown Speaker
it, everyone was remote. So it was kind of like, it's hard to bring everyone together and like hang out.
Alicyn
Yeah. And that was I remember we were in the session. And one of the coolest things about that was I think that was the first time when sort of the entire crew was female. Oh, yeah. That was oh, Ashley Lambert. You Ryan Shannon. And the engineer, I believe is male, but everyone from production was female. And that was just so cool to have. You know, see that many women working in games?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I hadn't even thought about it until I think that you said something. I was like, oh, that's kind of fun. I I'd really been in that situation either like a It was a new experience was
Alicyn
great. Yeah, I remember when I first started doing VO for video games, it was mainly male dominated and now almost every session I go to there's at least one woman but it's usually like, you know, maybe more like one woman, you know? I mean if I'm to be honest, but no, that was like that was like, Yeah, Ashley Lambert directing and you producing and Ryan writing was like, Oh my God. Wow, this is so cool.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, those sessions were so much fun. I had a great time. Yeah.
Alicyn
Over our resume resume. So are you guys anime fans? Yeah, the game is very heavily anime influenced. I'm assuming you are. Oh,
Unknown Speaker
yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel like everybody who is of my cohort like millennials, and younger, working in animation, like, all of us grew up watching, you know, Sailor Moon Dragon Ball. I mean, poke him on. Who didn't watch poke him on, right?
Unknown Speaker
That's true. Yeah, you see the influence, like in all the cartoons that are being made right now. And so it was really fun to just do it more deliberately. For us. So yeah, we tried to tap into like a particular era of anime. And that was kind of like the late 90s, early 2000s. When those dubs were coming over to the states, and we were the exact age group, to think they're really cool.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, Neon is very infused with the spirit of Toonami. And I mean, we even had Steve So.
Alicyn
Right. So Cowboy Bebop, I heard that that was an interesting story about casting Steve Blum. Yeah. And like,
Unknown Speaker
we were just like, can we just ask Steve to do that? Okay. And, you know, he's a tremendous actor. And you know, not only was Was he the voice of Spike, but also the voice of Tom from Toonami. So he was like, hosting Toonami at the same time. And so I was like, Yeah, you know, let's just wear our influences on our sleeves. Yeah.
Alicyn
And it's amazing. And so it was it? I mean, was it just like an offer? You're like, Hey, listen, can you do spike? Or, you know, do you have somebody like, Steve, even audition, just like, it's you? Well, we kind of need to hear it.
Unknown Speaker
We did want to hear it. But we sent it out first to Steve, because if it worked out, it was going to be great. And we knew also that, like, he was going to do a good job, we're fairly confident that he is going to do a good job.
Alicyn
Yeah. That's amazing. So now that you're here. What was the experience? Like going through it? How challenging was it like on a scale of one to 10?
Unknown Speaker
The whole process or whatever,
Alicyn
it sounds very, very difficult. So that's why I asked
Unknown Speaker
depends on what time you asked us. You know, for the first two years, I would probably have said, not that hard, it's you know, it's a game that really benefits from being very gamey. So like, we didn't try to break the mold in a lot of different ways. We broke the mold in very specific ways. And so when you make a game full of levels, and you know, like, you put some art assets in there, and it's like, you kind of know how to produce a game like that. But once you start to layer in like, it has a bunch of First Person Shooter stuff, but it also has a story and there's like, all these characters, and oh, it has voice acting now. And there's like, you know, 10s of 1000s of lines that have to get localized into like, 12 languages like it started to add up a lot near the end. And
Unknown Speaker
yeah, I want to say that the last year it was a it was a you know, it had a an exponential growth of difficulty. degree culminating in the birth of our child.
Alicyn
Does your child have a controller? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
If you want to touch a video game, a little boy,
Alicyn
I have a boy two sons are the best. Oh, really? Sweet. Ah,
Unknown Speaker
yeah. So it got it got pretty tricky at the end, but not in a, you know, in an unnatural way. All games ended up being like a huge, chaotic disaster at the end.
Alicyn
Yeah. And then, you know, did it come out at the time that you were hoping or was it? We didn't have that process,
Unknown Speaker
delay it a bit. It was going to come out earlier. But we were also going to launch the game on Nintendo Switch at the same time as PC ah, and so we had a lot of stuff coming in hot at the time. But, you know, that was also the time we really made the decision to have the game run at 60 frames a second on switch, and that is a technical marvel to do something. Yeah, a lot of games don't even try because it's it's a lot a lot of effort. And we wanted to get it right because it's a fast paced games. We wanted to run really fast and to feel really good. So we ended up having to kick it back a little bit. You know, the release date ended up being it was at a tough time. But it was worth it, I think to make the product like, really, really strong, technically speaking.
Alicyn
And that's what a lot of people really resonate with is the gameplay and sort of the speed of it all.
Unknown Speaker
It gives you like a sense of confidence to be like, Okay, well, they made this run really good. So like, I'll give it a chance. And I'll see you, you know, this is a game that's going to be demanding of me to play really fast. So if it runs really well, it's really smooth. And hopefully people like, you know, put themselves into it a little more.
Alicyn
Mm hmm. Yes, you've probably caused many sleepless nights. Like wired. When you get out. You're like, oh, adrenaline. I feel like I'm just jumping off a building here.
Unknown Speaker
Something that's a I've loved to hear is I've seen people talk about it. Sort of like having a Tetris effect sort of thing. You know how when you play a lot of Tetris, you close your eyes and you see the Tetris. I've heard tell of people closing their eyes and trying to get through really fast.
Unknown Speaker
Why is your brain Yeah, you're
Unknown Speaker
always looking for the optimum path now.
Alicyn
That's amazing. So what is then you know, you've created this just huge project. And Geneva you previously worked in animation. Are you planning to go back to animation now or obviously have a baby? So
Unknown Speaker
yeah, right now I'm on a little bit of a break. But yes, I do. I do plan to go back to animation. I love it. It's my, my unfortunate one and only love
Alicyn
are fortunate. They are fortunate to have you. I agree. And what about you, Ben? I mean, obviously, now's the time to soak it all in and enjoy the fruits of your labor. But um, are you going to you be on to the next indie game, or
Unknown Speaker
I can enjoy the fruits of my labor for like, maybe a week. And then I'm like, Yeah, okay, that's good. Time to work on something new.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. You hadn't even like, the game had barely been launched when you started working on your new frat? Yes.
Unknown Speaker
So and that's just what I love. Like I love getting, you know, getting immersed in a project and really thinking about it super deeply. So this has been a great time, because I haven't had a lot of like technical things bogging me down. So a lot of my time is spent like going on a walk with Jeeva and the baby. And we're just talking about ideas, which is a nice game and writing and it's been really cool and refreshing to like, design something from scratch again.
Alicyn
Oh, gosh, you already just
Unknown Speaker
I can't turn it off. Yeah, that's amazing. Maybe it'd be better not to do it, but I can turn it off.
Alicyn
Yeah, great. Well, I am so feel very honored that you guys came down today to chat about the game and everything. I'm a big fan of the game and want to help spread the word however I can. And it's so lovely to actually meet you in person. Yeah, it's
Unknown Speaker
great to meet you.
Alicyn
Thanks for having thanks guys so much. And thank you guys for tuning in. We'll see you next week on Alison's Wonderland.