Judging Sam: Sam Bankman-Fried Takes The Stand

Push Kim.

Welcome to Judging Sam, our podcast about the trial of Sam Bankman Freed. We were in the courtroom today October the twenty seventh. It was me, Michael Lewis, one of your hosts, and Lydia Jean Kott, who's actually kind of running the show, and we've just come out.

So this is a hot take.

Like, I haven't had a whole lot of time to process what happened, but I had random sort of reactions to things, and I've tried to kind of order them in my head a bit. So l J, here's here's the first question I want to ask, if you were just to explain to like your mother, the significance of today, how would you sort of frame.

It for So, today it was the first day that Sam Bankmin Freed was on the stand that the jury was present for, and his defense lawyers to direct examination with him, which means that they were able to draw out of him his side of the story, and.

They drew out of the side of the story in a way that sort of followed mostly the plot of my.

Book about it.

They walked him through his life and took us all the way through to kind of almost the crisis. We didn't quite get to the crisis. We got to the kind of latest, kind of September.

Of last year exactly.

And the way they set everything up at the beginning is they asked him, did you defraud anyone? Did you take anyone's money? And he said no, but he did say that he made mistakes, small and large mistakes. And then I feel like we got the story of how these mistakes happened and what they were, or the beginning of it.

A lot of it reads like the cliff notes to Going Intoite. I mean really, it's just like I feel like they're like bouncing along through the book but just grabbing like the barest of the details until they get to the collapse.

Yeah, that's much more boring.

Oh well, you know, it's funny you say that, because it is. There is this tedium, But it's funny. Everybody turns up early in the morning to Gideon, right like you O. These reports leaning up at two in the morning and three in the morning, so they're full of energy and they're full of anticipation that the day is going to be so exciting. And then by about ten o'clock everybody's yawning and I bet.

What happens is they walk out of.

The courthouse exhausted, sort of thinking most of that day was boring. But then people tell them, Wow, your tweet was good or your story was good because they made it more interesting than it was, and you know, rinse and repeat every day.

Yeah.

I don't think that's fair though, because there are real moments of excitement.

True, so true, And it's easier for you to see that today you were in the overflow room for all of it. I was in the overflow room at the beginning, and then after lunch I went into the main courtroom. And it's funny. It's like you have a laugh track and I don't. So I have to supply my own emotional content because nobody's allowed to say anything in the courtroom. You can't even allowed to whisper to the person next

Really want to do.

I just wanted to know what it was like to be in the courtroom and watching Sam Bnkman free testify.

It where his parents looking at.

Him, His mother takes looks down and takes notes and looks at him and nods, and she seems she looks, you know, very grim the whole time.

And she looks frazzled, like she's just stressed beyond belief. You know.

It's just not fair what's going on inside the central nervous system there. And the dad looks like he is paying almost as much attention to the mom as he is to Sam. That might be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me. And Sam seems completely himself Sam.

The whole time.

I've thought this, that Sam is the only one who seems like calm about everything. Aside from him seeming like himself. I'm struck by how he doesn't look like himself. He just looks like, you know, with the short hair and having dry some weight and dressed up like mortician.

And is a jury paying attention very much.

I couldn't only see their profiles, but the former Solomon Brothers guy is paying very close attention.

The ones I could really.

See seem very alert, like really watching him. And I guess if I was on the jury and I'd been hearing about this guy for the past month, I'd be paying attention too.

It's the first time to really hear him.

Yeah, and that was who heard him for the first time today because the jury wasn't there yesterday.

I thought it was interesting watching them when they file in and file out, because the camera you can see his face. They all really avoid looking in his direction. It seems like they all are looking down when they walk past him.

They don't look at anybody.

They make a point of not looking at anybody, so they're not I've tried to make eye contact, they.

Won't do it.

They've been well trained to prevent any kind of information coming into them that they're not that the judge does not approve of.

I'm curious what the judge was like in the courtroom because in our previous episode, Rebecca Marmolstein, the former SDNY prosecutor, said that Sam testifying might really make the judge annoyed.

It's funny.

It's a little hard to read the judge's true feelings, which I think is intentional probably, But the first thing that comes off the judge thick as smoke, is how much.

He loves being a judge.

You know, he's just like loving being a judge, and he's like playing a judge at the same time, he is a judge and he and he likes making people laugh. He likes looking over it. If you were wearing spectacles, he'd be looking over his spectacles at Sam with concern, you know, like this. The thing, whatever he's looking for, is the judge to be angry at Sam. And everybody's looking for this, because that's become the general thought has

That's interesting.

We'll be right back, welcome back.

So I'm curious how you felt or what if any differences you felt there were between today and yesterday, because in some ways it was a continuation of yesterday.

Yesterday was kind of like a dress rehearsal because Sam testified without the jury present in order for the judge to decide whether or not to allow certain bits of testimony. Today we only had direct and yesterday did really well on direct he seemed very much himself and very reasonable, And this time today on direct I would say he did very well again and seemed very much himself un reasonable.

Very good at explaining things.

And is a little fidgety and is a bit nerdy, and didn't really seem to have any sort of undercovered nefarious plot, and in fact talks so much and it's trying to explain things so much that he's constantly getting in trouble with it.

From the judge.

Today, he didn't get in as much trouble as he got yesterday.

Though not as nothing, but still a little bit more than other witnesses.

That's true.

The bigger point is the judge is sitting there listening to see if Sam is actually answering.

The question because he knows he doesn't do that yet.

Or generating a word salad for us all to consume. And I was thinking about this again to day. Why Sam's word salads are so fun, like why he gets away with it Like most people when they don't answer a question, your alarm bells go off pretty quickly, like

You're saying like there's substance to it. He's not just saying nothing. He's saying something that's substantive and makes you think it's just not what you asked. But then you're thinking and you forget what you asked.

That's exactly what happens. It's engaging. It's like, maybe it's even better than the answer to the question.

Right, Maybe it's what you should.

Have as you should have asked. That's exactly right.

And then to me, it kind of felt like that movie Raschamon, because it was three scenes that the prosecutors had painted on direct right with Caroline Allison in the balance sheets, and they showed the seven balance sheets that Caroline had apparently made for him that then he looked at, and then he, according to Caroline, chose the one that

He made it seem like he didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it.

Exactly.

He didn't actually say I didn't look at all, so he didn't.

I think the lawyer said, do you remember talking about each of these tabs and he said no.

Right, then we have the.

Other story was the bulletproof conversation between him and Adam you DiDia that happened on the.

Paddle ball court. Is it is it paddle on.

The paddle tennis court on this paddle tennis court, which sounds like a rich person sport that I don't know about. And they have this conversation that sounds kind of nefarious where Adam tells him about how there's these billions of dollars missing that Alameda took from FTX and he asks Sam mcmunfreed to respond to that, and Sam Bankman Freed says, we used to be bulletproof, but we're not anymore. And it sounds like just this very damning story.

Yeah, that conversation occurred supposedly in June. I think I sat down and had a very long interview with Adam yu DiDia July August, and if Adam you DiDio was so disturbed in June by this encounter on the paddle town's court and thinks these in the middle of a fraud. The last thing I'm going to do is sit down with me and have this kind of conversation I would have fought before. We get to a couple of substantive

Bizarre.

In addition to plea agreements, we haven't gotten an answer yet from I've asked now several lawyers, like serious lawyers, in the last forty eight hours, what's the history of the Pleague agreement?

Like why do we have it?

The englishing around London, people were saying that I can't believe these people are allowed to do this. Nobody's really had an answer. It's just woven into the fabric of our legal culture. And I'm just looking at it like as for the first time and just kind of shocked by it and interested by it. Last point, because I don't want to be a downer about our legal system. This court house is so beautifully run. It's just like

It's like, why is the food so good here? Doesn't have to be good here? And they're so nice.

They kind of make a point of like coming over and saying hi, and how you doing that. I was asking the woman at the cash register, like who runs this place? She says, my dad, you know, And it's like it's so cute. The people that seem to be really energized by their jobs.

Yeah, I think that's true because they, you know, there's such important cases there. And also marshalls are retired police officers a lot of time who now have a much easier job. I think that's and get paid a fair amount.

You've been in the main courtroom some right, I mean, like the judge has this very weird tapestry.

Behind Oh yeah, I've been wondering about that tapestry. It's kind of like blue and purplish, and it kind of seemed like it seems like a bad idea. It seems like someone was like, I'll make something for the courtroom, and this person was like, Okay, make it, and then they had to put it up. But it doesn't really fit in with what the rest of the courtroom looks like at all.

So I heard tell that it's the creation of the wife of the former judge who had that corporate It has that feeling, it feel, it has the feeling of the work of art someone gave you that they created and they gave it to you as a Christmas present, and you're stuck having to put it up on your wall because they go visit every four months and if it's not on your wall, you're in I found out about it today. I was asking one of the marshals.

It covers a bulletproof.

Pane of glass that's behind the judge, because that's a little unsightly. And the reason there's a bulletproof pane of glass behind the judge is that they fortified that room more than any of the other courtrooms in the building against attack. It's bomb proof. All the window.

Is bulletproof, and it was because it.

Was designed for whatever the cases were that came out of the World Trade Center bombings. And it's actually where they it's the very room where they had where Trump and the e Gen Carroll trial was. And actually, lastly, one of the things the interesting things they told me was the guy who worked there for a long time said he's never seen such public interest in the trial.

So here's a question for you.

Because I just My answer is, I just spent two years writing a book about it.

But why do you think.

So many people are so interested in Sam Bangman free. He hasn't come and gone like most cultural phenomenon. He's been in the news for a long time that's been surprisingly interested in it. I mean, look, there are hundreds some journalists floating around that place. What do you think is going on there?

I think there's so many layers of the story that are fascinating.

Right.

There's the one layer of Sam said he wanted to make the world a better place and then he failed so spectacularly. It's much more interesting than someone who is just bad from the beginning. I think the second layer is there's so much money. When there's a lot of money, that's interesting.

Yeah.

I think another layer is it's his closest friends and his ex girlfriend. It's so interesting to watch people's relationships play out also, and to watch a play out kind of on a public stage. And to me, for instance, even the balance sheet that had kind of couple's therapy energy to me, like it felt to me reminded me of purple therapy, where one person sees something one way and then the other person sees something completely differently and

How is there this huge misunderstanding?

Well, they were at war with each other. She booted him out of the Orchid penthouse.

Yeah.

The third big moment that was recast was Nashad's conversation with sam Akmon Freed on the balcony, which was you know, dramatic woman in the trial with the picture of the balcony and then the way sam Mgmunfried told the stories. That conversation was hardly even really about the missing funds

So you know, only two people know the truth of this.

But one thing that is true is that the spring of twenty twenty two, when Ryan Salem moves basically moves out of the company, he becomes much less interested in being involved, and Nishad and Nishad's girlfriend basically took over the role that Ryan had and Ryan had been really the department is spending money. I mean, it was unbelievable how Ryan spent money. And it drove Nashad crazy. Uh and he was even well before there were obvious problems. Nishad was like, we got to stop this. This is

Like it's this is no big deal.

You're looking at two people having very radically different accounts of.

And three people too. It's like three different stories.

Yep.

Two random thoughts, like not ordered thoughts. One was that it's kind of interesting that Sam's effective altruist passion had him focused on pandemic prevention. At least three of the members of the jury are wearing masks, so we have a germaphobic jury and by this and Sam's, Sam's has an interest in pandemic prevention, and I just wonder that was the first thought was like, hmm, I wonder if they're the germophobes, you're going to form a little you know what, let that guy loose.

If the defense lawyers were thinking about that when they were choosing who they wanted on the jury, that's a.

Who knows right, I'll argue at some point we stick a pin in that and we'll last We'll be back in a minute with one last thing, welcome back. I did the unseemly thing of running out of the courtroom moments before they said we were done for the day, because I smelled it and I wanted to beat everybody of the elevators and get my phone first, so I missed, like, what's coming next? That section that they do at the end of the day, what's coming next? What can we expect next week?

Okay, direct, we'll finish, and then there's going to be cross examination, which is what all the reporters are excited about, because that's going to be the more pugnacious part of Sam's testimony, and the prosecutors said that the judge should anticipate quote significant cross examination.

Sounds unpleasant.

It sounds unpleasant, except I personally love watching the prosecutor doing her work because she is so good and so precise, and there's just something really satisfying to me about watching someone who is very good at what they do.

Yeah, I agree, someone needs to profile Danielle so soon.

There's a story there. Al Jay, it's been.

A total guest hanging with you in the last two days, and I get to hang with you in another.

Two days at least next week. But let's say.

Goodbye now, see you on Monday.

By bye, We'll be back in your feed next week. With more expert analysis and news from Sambangmanfreed's trial.

Thanks for listening.

This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Me, Michael Lewis, Lydia Gencott is our court reporter. Katherine Girardeau and Nisha Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of stell Wagons Symphonet. Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. Got a question or comment for me? There's a website for that atr podcast dot com. That's atr podcast dot com. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,