Sonic Justice

Stew Redwine (00:00):
This is Add Infinitum. Add Infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads, the creatives who make them and or the latest thinking that informs them how the space is evolving. And my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads with Analysis by yours truly, stew Redwine and each episode's guest. This is season three, episode three of Ad infinitum titled Sonic Justice. Today we're celebrating the bold, often irreverent world of local audio advertising. 805 8 8 2 300 and bought today

Darren Kavinoky (00:51):
On 8 7, 7 cars for kids. No one looks good in handcuffs. You know, unless you're into that sort of thing.

Announcer and Soundbites (00:57):
You're

Darren Kavinoky (00:58):
Killing me. Larry Shouldn't Sleep will

Announcer and Soundbites (00:59):
Beat anyone's advertised. Pricer Your mattress is free.

Stew Redwine (01:02):
This is a special episode where we're not gonna be breaking down other ads. We're really gonna be drilling in on the story of one advertiser who's been incredibly successful by being bold with their messaging in audio. While national advertisers may favor safe Polish campaigns, local advertisers are not afraid to take risks because they have to. That's my opinion. And as we'll discuss today, playing it safe can actually be the most dangerous thing you can do. Alright, let's get started. Let's face it, playing it safe is the most dangerous thing you can do in advertising, not just in advertising in a lot of things. Look, we get it safe, feels well safe, but in reality it's the fastest way to blend in and be forgotten. Playing it safe is risky. That's the title of a post from Mark tus. Tom Fishburn, I love his work. Dated August 19th, 2024.

(01:53):
And he starts out by quoting Seth Godin. So it feels like the scene in the office with Michael Scott quoting Wayne Gretzky. But here we go, Tom Fishburne quoting Seth Godin. We're all good at quoting somebody all the time. We're probably all quoting somebody all the time, right? Quote, I've always liked this insight from Seth Godin. If failure is not an option, then neither is success. Here's the thing, when you're not taking risk with your marketing, you have lower brand recall ads that don't stand out, fail to differentiate leading to poor recall and engagement. That's from Kantar 2021 and Byron Sharp, weaker ROI. Creative emotionally resonant campaigns outperform safe quote unquote ads non-risky ads and driving profitability and long-term brand growth that's been a and field from system one. Ad fatigue, repetitive generic messaging contributes to consumer desensitization, making bold campaigns essential to capture attention. That's from Ipsos 2024.

(02:48):
And we'll talk about ad fatigue more later, but I would sum that one up with, there's a sea of sameness, right? When everything is just meh, you've gotta do something risky or bold to stand out, missed cultural connection. Safe ads signal complacency, while boldness attracts audiences seeking relevance and innovation. That's Harvard Business Review 2020. So local advertisers know this better than anyone. They don't just play to win. They're really playing to not die finishing. It's the way that I look at it and I think that's the big difference between someone like our guest today, Darren and most chief audio officers because most chief audio officers are an employee. And in my opinion, that immediately shifts the posture of the person to defense. Not offense, this isn't always the case, but there is a gravitational pull in that direction as opposed to the offense everywhere all the time of a founder. I've seen that time and time again working with well over 50 founders on produced audio spots and television spots and many more on campaigns over the years at Oxford Road. That's what makes the local radio ads different. They're running offense all the time.

Darren Kavinoky (03:53):
The people in life that win play offense, not defense,

Stew Redwine (03:56):
These ads aren't safe, they're audacious, memorable and undeniably effective. That's why we're focusing today on local advertisers who embrace creativity and take risk. And Darren Kao's one 800 No cuffs campaign is the perfect example. Darren didn't start with a hit, his first ads were safer, more traditional. But when you lean into bold, creative sonic branding, everything changed. So we're gonna explore why playing it safe is the real risk in advertising. How sonic branding builds trust and drives performance and Darren's journey to finding the ad creative that finally turned the corner and delivered breakthrough results. Joining us is Darren Cavan, Noki founder of one 800 no cuffs. Darren's journey as a legal advertiser is a masterclass in breaking the mold. After starting with safe standard campaigns, Darren found success only when he embraced boldness and creativity in his ads. Today, one 800 No cuffs is a household name in California proving that sonic branding and risk taking can drive results and build trust like nothing else. Darren, welcome to the show. Thanks dude, glad to be here. It's so awesome to have you here. Yeah. I guess before we get into more specific questions, the bit that I'm saying there about offense and defense, does that connect with you being a business owner?

Darren Kavinoky (05:06):
Well, I mean there's so much to unpack. I just found myself kind of nodding along with the major premises premise I premises, premises with the premises that you articulated. I think they're all on point

Stew Redwine (05:18):
Right before the show, you were having a conversation on this very idea of incentives. 'cause that's what I actually think is going on with offense in defense.

Darren Kavinoky (05:26):
I mean, what I can say is that in my experience, you know, look, I'm a lawyer and I built a couple of different law practices, but becoming a lawyer brought me to my inner entrepreneur. Like I don't know if you've ever heard the definition of a lawyer is a bright Jewish kid that sucks at math and you can't stand blood, right? And so that was kind of the thing. My dad was a CPA, I knew I hated numbers. Like he is like a rain man-like facility with numbers

Announcer and Soundbites (05:47):
82, 82, 82.

Darren Kavinoky (05:49):
And I'm like, well that's not me. But I was always whatever good at debating stuff. And so I became a lawyer. So whatever at the time that I grew up it was like come into one of these slots like tech didn't exist, no university had a major in entrepreneurship. But what I always say is like becoming a lawyer brought me to my inner entrepreneur. And so this conversation that we're having is just my favorite conversation to have, especially where I feel like I can help other lawyers. 'cause I've scaled my business, the one 800 no cuffs business. I scaled from starting as a solo practitioner where I was literally, you know, chief cook and bottle washer and in charge of making coffee and making copies and answering the phone. You know, the whole soup to nuts. I scaled up to where I had, you know, 40 employees all throughout the state, consistently over $10 million in revenue.

(06:38):
So you know, going from a solo guy to that, it was just quite a journey along the way where I made a lot of expensive mistakes and figured out a lot of what you're talking about. But your point about offense versus defense I think is very well taken. 'cause one thing I've observed with entrepreneurs, lawyers and others is that there's so often can be a misalignment between what the owner wants to achieve as an objective and what the employees are carrying out. And so if you don't solve that through creative compensation plans and really taking care of your best people, your best people aren't gonna stick around. And that's incredibly disruptive to a small medium-sized business. And I know it's a little adjacent to the branding conversation, but you know, as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, I look at it, I've got a touch of the A DD, I don't know if you know this about me, but a pretty type A plus and I like bright shiny objects.

Stew Redwine (07:28):
You're in the right place.

Darren Kavinoky (07:29):
Perfect. So for me, running my business and I think what I'm about to share with you is applicable to any business, definitely service-based businesses. I've never done products, but I think this would apply to products too. But basically there's five pillars. Think of a building with five pillars.

Stew Redwine (07:46):
Okay? I'm thinking of

Darren Kavinoky (07:46):
It, something majestic like the White House. Yes, sure, I don't how many pillars they have but whatever. So right. Something of that. And I do like a rotunda, like a

Stew Redwine (07:53):
Round cool building. Okay,

Darren Kavinoky (07:55):
Listen, it's your world, we all all just get to play it. Exactly. Theater

Stew Redwine (07:57):
Of mind.

Darren Kavinoky (07:57):
Okay, so the foundation of that is having the mindset of A CEO and understanding that it takes an entirely different set of skills and tools to go from being a good technician at something to being a business owner, right? So quick example, like I'm hammering nails for some guy on a job site and I think why am I doing this for this dude? I'm gonna open up my own contracting company or I bake pies, I just love to bake stru scones even I pent out and I'm really good at baking pies. Why am I doing it for this horrible boss in this restaurant? I'm gonna open up my own pie shop or a lawyer. Why am I billing hours for this son of a gun And you know, I'm gonna go hang my shingle and I'm gonna now start my own law firm. So what most people realize and where they fall down and why this is so foundational is when you do that you've gotta shift your thinking to, it's no longer about being the best hammerer of nails or baker of pies or even the best lawyer. It's now I'm the CEO of a small business. What are the skills and tools? What do I need to pay attention to? And what you need to pay attention to in my mind just very quickly is five pillars. So if something would cross my path that wasn't in these five pillars, it was a distraction. It was a bright shiny object that I needed to avoid 'cause of my a DD that I was talking about. You're looking puzzled. Stick with me here,

Stew Redwine (09:06):
Stick, I'm with you. What I want to say is I think that foundation is what I'm meaning when I say offense,

Darren Kavinoky (09:12):
Right?

Stew Redwine (09:12):
I want to hear the five things, but that is exactly it. If I could sum it up another way to say it is defense is pounding nails for somebody else.

Darren Kavinoky (09:19):
Well, defense is doing the same old thing 'cause it's the way that we've always done it perhaps or that's how the original founders came up with it. Or because I'm inflexible and I don't appreciate that the world has changed. You know, to me playing defense is ultimately a recipe for going out of business eventually, you know, if you get into these companies like you go read that iconic Jim Collins book, good to Great and he's talking about these great companies and then he did a follow up book like 20 years later and a lot of those great companies were gone 'cause they didn't change, right? So there is, that's what we're talking about. That's the deal. So

Stew Redwine (09:50):
For you it's these five. What are these five pillars,

Darren Kavinoky (09:52):
Five pillars. So first is if I was gonna start up any company, I would make sure that these five pillars were addressed in my business plan or if I have an existing company. I was just talking to somebody about this yesterday that like your job, if you're a lawyer, running your law firm is the highest and best use of your time. The one duty that is not delegable is being the CEO of that business being a lawyer and representing clients. That's a delegatable duty. People go to law school for that. But no one else is gonna be the CEO. And so your job when you come in is to look at these five pillars every day and say, hey, are these pillars strong? Are they firmly grounded, firmly it and are my metrics good? And I am a huge proponent of metrics drive everything. All your decisions need to be data informed or you're likely to go outta business anyway. Business is one of my mentors loves to say. And shout out to Keith Cunningham, keys to the vault.com. If anybody's looking for resources here, he does a great program called the four day MBA, so you can understand your financials. But you know Keith likes to say just to quote somebody else, I know that's your things too.

Stew Redwine (10:52):
Yes.

Darren Kavinoky (10:52):
You know, business is not about guts and glands, it's not testosterone, it's an intellectual sport. And so I need to be data informed and making my decisions not, oh which way is the wind blowing and what am I in the mood to do? 'cause that will blow me up. But here are the five pillars. Marketing to make the phone ring two sales. How do I convert a ringing phone into a paying client, sell me this pen three delivery of my services, whether it be pies, nails or legal services like my service delivery, making sure that I've got systems so that it's uniform processes. This was my big deal that I wanted to make sure that my client got the same experience. Whether it was my lawyer in San Francisco or my lawyer in San Diego or me. I wanted to deliver that consistency. So like the practice of law is very unique and very fact specific, right?

(11:42):
There's artistry to it. But the systems that my lawyers would do, we knew what the typical case lifecycle was. And so, okay, what's the experience we wanna deliver? Great. Two weeks before the court date, the client needs to get a call and get this letter. And like we kinda script out how we want that experience to go to make sure that that experience is consistently delivered. The details are gonna change based on the unique needs of the case, but the experience should be the same. So that's delivery of services, right? We got marketing to make the phone ring, sales converter, ringing phone to a paying client. Third is delivery of my service. Fourth is operations and infrastructure. And this is not sexy stuff, but what do I need to make the first three things thrive? Typically it's like a CRM and you know, whatever my software programs are and do I need a freaking copy machine? Like who are the support staff that I need? Right? That's operations. And the fifth pillar is accounting. 'cause if I don't understand my numbers, I'm like a pilot who can't read the dials on my plane and I'm not safe.

Stew Redwine (12:47):
They're saying if you don't know your numbers, you don't know your business.

Darren Kavinoky (12:50):
Okay, that's a more succinct way I said the same thing but with more words.

Stew Redwine (12:54):
It's Evan Goldberg at NetSuite. We had him in a founder's spot. Yeah. And that was his tagline. Marketing, sales, delivery operations. So most of the chief audio officers are solely here. Now, ultimately are they gonna have KPIs and are they gonna be reviewed and all of this stuff yearly or whatever, could they be impacted? Yeah, but it's just not as direct as with

Darren Kavinoky (13:13):
You. So, but here's the deal. It would be great if people on the marketing team are sensitive to these issues so they can have thoughtful conversation. But what you're describing is really you're describing the CEO's job, which is that the issue that you're describing is a compensation and alignment of interest issues that I don't know if it's the highest and best use of the chief audio officer to be solving those problems. It's certainly is where the CEO should devote his thinking. So I recognized it that in my office, if I have employees, lawyers who are part of my fixed overhead and they're being paid a salary, one way that I could organize my firm and pay my people is I pay those lawyers a fixed salary, a generous salary, but it's a fixed salary. Right? And then the problem is that when a new case shows up in their inventory for them, and I'm not saying this would be conscious, I'm not saying they're like evil people, like exactly, but subconsciously it's oh crap, more work for the same pay. Or on the other side, I knew a law firm for example, that had two groups of lawyers. They had intake lawyers and they had we'll call the going to court working on the case lawyers, right? And the lawyers that did the intake earned no salary. They earned 10% of the fee, whatever the fee was. And the lawyers who were doing the work on the case earned no salary. They earned 15% of whatever the fee was. This was a firm that did criminal work. So they got paid upfront in advance.

Stew Redwine (14:46):
Could you pay me in advance?

Darren Kavinoky (14:48):
And so when you had that, everybody's interests were aligned. Hey, we gotta keep this client happy. 'cause if the client say fired the firm and didn't pay the balance of the retainer, all the lawyers suffered an economic loss,

Stew Redwine (15:01):
Right? It's not just a set thing,

Darren Kavinoky (15:02):
Right? And then of course when I talked to my lawyers about hey would you like to shift this so that it's more entrepreneurial, right? It allows me as a business owner, there's certain pros and cons with that system. It allows me to dial in exactly what my margins are because I can protect my margins. If I know that my intake and my overhead with employees are these, you know,

Stew Redwine (15:23):
Exactly

Darren Kavinoky (15:23):
10 and 50% it allows me to forecast. And for the employees themselves, it aligns their interests, right? They're motivated to keep the client happy. The problem is, what I found is that my lawyers who chose to be employees as opposed to starting their own law firms, they liked the predictability of a paycheck and it's just a different personality type. What we finally hit on was a hybrid where they had a base and then they had some incentives that were built in assuming that they did things to keep the clients happy and all of that. So my long-winded point is there's ways for the CEO to do this work and come up with, and this is the challenge of A CEO. This is why you make the big bucks CEOs. You've gotta figure out what's the best way to construct your business to solve this problem. 'cause that may be different from a law firm to a pie shop, to a whatever.

Stew Redwine (16:13):
Well and that's where the difference that I hear between national advertisers and local advertisers on radio, I was just like, why is that? Like why do you hear more of the cringe worthy as some might say, tactics in audio with local advertisers. It's like, well I know especially from being at Oxford and working with these founders of direct to consumer brands over the years. Like MeUndies, the MeUndies video that was so famous, you know, 12 years ago the guy's taking the gloves off, he's just being direct. I want to dig into is your path to getting there.

Darren Kavinoky (16:44):
I think it goes back to that offensive and defensive point that you made where when you get companies of a certain size where you are a national brand, it's almost like you know, you ever watch a football game where some team gets a big early run on the score and then instead of doing what led to that success and playing aggressively, they start to play defensively and they shift safe ball, they play safe and then they lose. Right? And so I think that's what happens in a company's lifecycle. That's something to guard against when you transition from being a medium-sized company to a large company and you're now a national company. Like how do you guard against that? But the premise is, I mean look, doing lackluster uncreative, non memorable ads, no size business has a lock on creatives like <laugh>, right? And likewise, I think there's an ad when YouTube first started, there was a company I was reading about this I want to say was this an influence anyway, keep reading if you're an entrepreneur read books but influenced by C Cini.

(17:41):
Yes. Who was a fantastic boy and I think he was the one I could be mistaken in my attempts to quote and cite, but there was a reference made to a blender company and they did this whole campaign on YouTube called Will It Blend? And they would just put different in their blender. And you know, the answer was most of the time you put a bunch of marbles in there, you get this finely ground dust and people love to watch will it because it was engaging, it was interesting. And so I feel like that's the marketer's challenge and it's not based on the size of the company, but I think what you find with smaller companies, founder driven companies as opposed to shareholder driven companies, the founder stories typically is somebody who had an entrepreneurial seizure. My back is against the wall, I've got you know, whatever family, I've got employees relying on me, I gotta jump in and do this. So I think that's why you kind of tend to see more risks taking done and then also whatever, don't get me started about cancel culture but like that's a real thing. I think that also impacts the risks that creatives are willing to take.

Stew Redwine (18:41):
And it feels like we're kind of on the other side of that.

Darren Kavinoky (18:43):
Well just go, please watch Bill Maher. He does a really good job articulating that. People are just very tired of walking on eggshells in this

Stew Redwine (18:51):
Country. So take me back. How is radio even on your radar?

Darren Kavinoky (18:56):
So for me there's a great book called Blue Ocean Strategy and to very quickly summarize the book, it's the idea that most businesses fight it out in the bloody red ocean. And the reason this ocean is red is it runs red with the blood of the people that are competing for the fix share of the consuming public's dollar versus a blue ocean where somebody turns all that on its head and creates a lane for themselves where there's no competition. Right? So one of the memorable examples from the book, think about the circuses circus. Back in the day there was Barnum and Bailey and other competitors of Barnum and Bailey who lost the fight to Barnum and Bailey. But like a circus was the same thing. It was a three ring circus, there was elephants, there were bearded ladies, there was a flying trapeze. You know, it was the same kind of deal whether it was Barnum and Bailey or the competitors and there were only so many dollars that the circus going public was willing to part with. So it was competing for this fixed sum, right? Yep. Then along comes Cirque Solei and says that's not what a circus is. Let me show you what a circus is and just reinvents what a circus is and creates their own lane, right? And so for me at the time I started getting into radio the bloody red ocean was the internet everybody,

Stew Redwine (20:07):
Particularly for your category.

Darren Kavinoky (20:09):
In my category. Yeah. And you know, this was the beginning. I mean look, I'm 58 years old so my, as a lawyer, I first started getting into internet marketing in the late nineties, fairly early in the, and

Stew Redwine (20:21):
That's the beginning of the internet.

Darren Kavinoky (20:22):
It is the dawn of the internet era, right? Yeah. So my thinking was how do I stand out? How do I become more of a category of one? How do I become that blue ocean?

Stew Redwine (20:30):
You hung your shingle here in Los Angeles.

Darren Kavinoky (20:31):
Yeah.

Stew Redwine (20:32):
Are you doing direct mail? Are you doing newspapers?

Darren Kavinoky (20:34):
My first advertisement was a business card size ad in the Russian newspaper. My wife's from the Ukraine and I'm ethnically half Russian. But yeah I was born in Santa Monica but you know up the chain a bit. My grandparents came from Russia, my dad's side. And my wife as I said is Ukrainians. So I knew one thing about Russians that they really know how to party, right? You go to a Russian restaurant? Yes. And there's a shot glass at every place setting. I'm like, so these are my people you know who are getting DUI. So I placed a business card size ad in the Russian newspaper and my wife and my sister-in-law helped me create like this phonetic. So I could say things like please hold while I get my translator. So, and then I could like get my wife on the phone or like I learned how to say diamond dgi, which is Russian for please gimme the money, show me the money.

(21:18):
So you know, that was my first foray into advertisement. Then I started getting in the internet early and then ultimately I realized that you know, everybody with a website could market online and I wanted something that would be unique. And there was a lawyer at the time who had already kind of proven that radio worked who was a competitor of mine. But I thought I had a better phone number and a better message, although not to get too far all over the field, but I'd acquired the phone number one 800 no cuffs a few years before I actually came to market with it. 'cause I was so concerned about tracking and obviously with a branded phone number it makes all that murky.

Stew Redwine (21:53):
What was the path to get that number? 'cause that's really interesting <laugh>.

Darren Kavinoky (21:56):
Yeah, well great question but let me also just make this point about the four minute mile. I think this is applicable to entrepreneurs and marketers as well. Please. You know, there was one lawyer who at the time before Howard Stern went to Sirius when he was on terrestrial radio here locally. There was a guy who A DUI attorney that was advertising on Howard Stern and I saw this guy's practice like blow up when Howard Stern went to Sirius that advertising had to stop by the way, 'cause Stern doesn't do lawyers and they only, you know, you can only buy national, right? But what that was for me like you know the story about the four minute mile, right? So for decades and decades track athletes said you know, we're trying to break the four minute mile, couldn't do it. And I think it was 1954, Roger Banister comes along, breaks the four minute mile, you know, not by a lot but it was a legit 3 59 whatever. And within the 90 days of banister doing that, 35 other people also broke before minute mile. And it wasn't like human beings just got faster but it's like oh I see what's possible. Right? And so this other lawyer was that for me it was like okay, he's the only one doing it. He gets to be a category of one. I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna do this

Stew Redwine (22:59):
Rep like on radio in Los Angeles

Darren Kavinoky (23:01):
On radio in Los Angeles. Yep.

Stew Redwine (23:02):
So, and you're listening just 'cause you like to listening to the

Darren Kavinoky (23:05):
Radio. 'cause I'm listening to Kevin and being in the morning and I

Stew Redwine (23:07):
Was turned so I it that I respect and I get, and I can see you're very data driven and you scour and you scan. It wasn't like it was part of like okay I'm gonna be thinking about my marketing strategy now what are all the different channels before I listen to the radio? This is the only guy on radio. Like it was kind of like that was more almost accidental magic.

Darren Kavinoky (23:25):
Well it's funny 'cause I think all these things, all these lessons that we're describing to try and help make somebody's path smoother, you only know these things in hindsight as an entrepreneur. It's like it's only by looking backwards and going, okay so how exactly did that unfold? Because like I'll tell you about the story with the one 800 no cuffs, getting the phone number is totally unpredictable, right? So I was in my office, I still remember the moment and I was looking to register my first domain name and the got milk campaign was going on at the time, right? You know got milk and they had a radio campaign, got milk, got milk and it would kind of have the same cadence. And I was thinking like what would be something that would be, have the same cadence be in the criminal law space and also be seven letters so I could get the 800 number.

Stew Redwine (24:05):
Got blow,

Darren Kavinoky (24:05):
Got milk, got coke. Exactly. And then I hit on no cuffs and checked in and domain name was available. Bam, I'm gonna get 100 no cuffs. So I registered the domain and then I dial one 800 no cuffs, hoping to hear nothing. You know this number's available and they answered the phone. Hello Polaroid, Polaroid pizza, like

Stew Redwine (24:24):
Ugh. Did it spell something or is it just It was a Polaroid number.

Darren Kavinoky (24:27):
They Polaroid owned thousands of phone numbers. So like in a catalog for some particular camera model, if you need customer service dial one. Yeah, exactly. And so I finally hit Polaroid who is in charge of like their intellectual property. And I explained to her, you know, hey could I please buy this number? And you know, it turns out they're not doing anything with it. It is just in some catalog blah blah blah. And she says, well you sound like a fine young man, let me check with the powers that be, talk to the board, whatever the committee is. And she basically comes back after some period of days or weeks and tells me to go screw off. So then I started sending her every week I would send her chocolate covered strawberries and Harry and David fruit basket and flowers and muffins and chocolate chip cookies.

(25:15):
And finally she called me up and she's like, look, I'm married, people at the office are starting to gossip about me. Everybody thinks I'm having an affair. Stop with the fricking muffins and cookies. And she's like, you're not getting the number, sorry. It's been nice meeting you. Have a nice day. My dream died and three years later I can tell you the date with a quick Google search. I'm walking to lunch from my office and I happen to walk past a newspaper rack. And mind you, I was not the kind of guy that was reading the Wall Street Journal every day at this point in my life, right? I walked past this newspaper rack and the headline on the newspaper was Polaroid being reorganized in bankruptcy. And I'm like,

Stew Redwine (25:53):
Winner winner chicken dinner.

Darren Kavinoky (25:55):
I mean by the way, not to go all woo woo but like that's weird 'cause it's, I don't usually even walk to lunch, you know, it's LA you drive everywhere. So I literally, when I saw that news, I literally ditched my friends and I turned around and I ran back to the office and I called that woman and I'm like, Hey remember me? I'm the muffin guy. The muffin man a muffin man. I'm like, I'm glad you still have a job. I saw the news, you know, maybe would now be a good time to talk about buying the number. 'cause I had offered her, I forget 20, $30,000 but you know, seemed like everything to me at the time. And she laughed 'cause to me I was like some old Yeah long lost friend. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And she goes, what's your fax number? This was back in the days when people still use faxes and she just faxed me the release and they gave it to me. So the lesson for the entrepreneurs is do not overlook the awesome power of fruit baskets and chocolate covered strawberries. 'cause truly, if I would not have done that, I mean all the things the planets had to line, if I would not been walking past that newspaper rack that day, 'cause the world was different.

Stew Redwine (26:54):
Just break this down, let's just break this down. It's all offense.

Darren Kavinoky (26:56):
It's all offense.

Stew Redwine (26:57):
And then mm-hmm <affirmative> being willing to cancel plans doing something same day. Hmm. So it's all offense from your charm offensive to you doing it right now. You running back and doing it now. And when you act in that way, when your posture's that way you were memorable to her, you were distinct and that phone number, right? Memorable and distinct. So we've got the phone number now let's get into,

Darren Kavinoky (27:17):
Well so I made some expensive mistakes along the way. So first thing is before I even got that number, my first foray into radio advertising was I had an 8, 6, 6 number And

Stew Redwine (27:26):
Interesting

Darren Kavinoky (27:27):
Because remember initially my dream died, right? I didn't get 800 no cuffs at first. So I'm like okay, what am I gonna get? And so I registered the domain name, got a DUI and I had the phone number eight six six got a DUI and I launched my first radio campaign. I remember it was going into the holidays, which is the drunk driving season by amateurs. So I had the creative was it was Santa getting pulled over, you hear the jingle of the sleigh and he gets pulled over for DUI and like Rudolph SSO is having won too many or whatever and you know the cop pulling over Santa is basically the creative and put the phone number in the ad. Eight six six got a DUI and several times obviously. And then a few months later and it does nothing for me. I spent 70,000 on that campaign and I probably drove, you know, 30,000 in business And three months later, some number of months later I at a lawyer conference and this lawyer comes running up and hugs me and he literally kisses me on the cheek and I'm like dude, what's up?

(28:24):
And he said thank you. Your radio ads are awesome. He owned the phone number, 800 got a DUI. And so all of my advertising dollars were driving calls after all. But it was just not calls to me. And so, you know, I learned this very expensive lesson about if you're gonna promote a toll free number, in my mind it's gotta be an 800 number. Because if I say hey go to my 800 number, it's 800, you know whatever it's 800 catchy name or it's 8 5 5 catchy name. When you get home and you want to dial that phone number, you're gonna think toll free number and you'll default just like if I tell you go to a website, it's whatever.org or.biz or dot whatever you're most likely to default to that.com. So that was an expensive lesson learned.

Stew Redwine (29:03):
It sounds like it. And it's, yeah the overarching theme is removing as much friction as possible to get them to be able to transact with you

Darren Kavinoky (29:12):
Or here's the lesson, just be smarter than that <laugh> <laugh>. But then there was definitely an arc in

Stew Redwine (29:19):
The creatives. There's an ad that turned the corner and we'll listen to that in just a second. Just in brief, what got you up to this ad that turned the corner? Like what's the long story short on, you heard the one guy, you finally get the number, you have the miss with the 800 number, the 8, 6, 6 number. Now you're actually starting to do an 800 kickoffs on the radio, right? What was the exploration or testing that got you to the turn the corner spot we're about to listen

Darren Kavinoky (29:44):
To? Well that's a great question. You know, initially I started doing what and I think lawyer advertising in general can be very uncreative. Like it's an area that's right for disruption or where good clear messaging, you know, good branding can really carry the day and there's a absence of that. But what I did at first, which got some results but not great results, was to do what I call this typical lawyer self-congratulatory ad. Which is hire me because of my professional accolades because I'm on the list of super lawyers, I am AV rated by Martin Dale Hubble, which is something that makes sense to lawyers. But you know if you tell a non-lawyer, Hey I'm AV rated by Martin Dale Hubble, they go, what the hell? They don't even understand what that is. And that the A relates to legal skill, JD Power and the V relates to ethic. It's like yeah

Stew Redwine (30:32):
It's like JD Power and Associates,

Darren Kavinoky (30:33):
It is, but JD Powers and Associates is well known 'cause every car advertiser talks about JD Powers. And so now people hear JD Powers and if I would've said that as opposed to AV rated by Martin Dale Hubble, that would've been possibly important. But my point was like I was telling people a bunch of information about myself that didn't matter to them.

Stew Redwine (30:52):
So you're running those ads and they're just falling flat. They're falling flat. So why are you still investing? Why still invest in the channel? Because I knew it would work. How did you know it would work? 'cause it had worked before or

Darren Kavinoky (31:01):
Just because other people had run the four minute mile. So this guy in LA I've got a buddy who from upstate New York that had a similar kind of criminal defense practice and he was using radio very powerfully. And so other people had run the four minute mile ahead of me. So I knew the problem wasn't radio, I knew the problem was in my execution.

Stew Redwine (31:20):
So I wanna pause on that for the chief audio officers that there are such tremendous success stories in audio from now the largest blue chip brands out there. That there is no question about the power. It all comes down to the execution. You just gotta take a good hard look in the mirror as to how you are showing up in audio and how you're leveraging it because it absolutely can work and will work if done properly. Is that what I'm hearing you say

Darren Kavinoky (31:47):
Emphatically? I think it's you know, being thoughtful on the execution on the creatives and also about the ad buy because you can have the best ad in the world but if you're sending it to the wrong audience, who cares? You know? So like for example, going back to being metrics driven in the world of DUI cases, that was not the entirety of my practice but that was the part of my practice that did best with media advertising, right? Because it's the most popular crime that there is and it's the every man kind of crime.

Stew Redwine (32:17):
Well let's also say they're listening to it in their car.

Darren Kavinoky (32:19):
That's the other piece is in the world of DUI you gotta have a car where do a lot of people listen to radio? They listen to it in the car also, you know, we were at a certain price point where we certainly weren't the most expensive game in town, but we weren't the cheapest. We were kind of like to use the retail analogy like we were Nordstrom, right? It wasn't like a crazy expensive boutique but it we had the piano player in nice stuff so we needed people that could afford to pay. You know the average fee for a first defense DUI case was like six grand, right? So we needed people who had a job. So DriveTime radio was great 'cause that's people driving to their jobs and so we built the avatar of our consumer, right? And this is something to inform on the buy side.

(33:02):
So I knew from the data that you know the Pareto principle, that 80 20 rule everywhere, it shows up everywhere and it was all over this business as well. So for example, in my practice 80% was DUI, 20% was other stuff in the world of DUI, 80% of the arrestees are men, 20% are women, 80% are arrested for a first time DUI for 20%. It's a multiple offense. DUI, 80% of of people give a breath test, 20% give a blood test. So I knew that my client was a male between the ages of 25 and 40 on the thickest part of the bell curve that it has just been arrested for a first offense, DUI and gave a breath test 'cause that's the 80 20 rule at play. So now once I know that okay then my media buy is going to reach that male. So that informed the buy. So that's why it was, you know, for us it was alt rock, it was sports, it was news talk.

Stew Redwine (33:55):
Are we talking iHeart here in Los Angeles? Were you working with the folks over at iHeart? I did. What did that look like? You walk in the door, I'm sure at first I yeah we could place you in some breaks Mr. Kaki or had you already had some success, how big was your buy and like when did it unlock?

Darren Kavinoky (34:10):
So I ran my business such that it was less about the marketing budget but it was about the client acquisition cost. And so for me it was the ratio of marketing spend to gross dollars. So as long as I was getting a three to one return on my investment in terms of gross dollars, I would make that trade all day long and continue to market and market and market.

Stew Redwine (34:34):
And so were you doing that before you darkened the door of iHeart?

Darren Kavinoky (34:39):
No, we started with a budget and I probably, I knew enough to know that if your budget is too small you're just wasting your time. You gotta put enough into it to give it a legitimate chance. You it's gotta have some repetition

Stew Redwine (34:53):
And that's where I feel like there's cross disciplinary just being a human being and using your common sense of going like there's gotta be a minimum threshold. You know? Yeah. We have something we hear all the time. Like you were saying the police people here all the time. I had two drinks two hours ago in the pre-show. We hear all the time, you know, if it works I'll spend more. Yeah. But there's a minimum threshold and it's important there, important just to know what it takes to play and just look and see like, you know the big thing I'm hearing that you're saying for chief audio officer is like here's one. If there are people that do exactly what you do succeeding in audio, you can succeed in audio.

Darren Kavinoky (35:25):
Right? And the idea that it's a competitive landscape by the way, I paid no attention to that none. It just shows that it works and now it's just a creative challenge to do it better, to do something that's more memorable. And that was part of our journey as well.

Stew Redwine (35:38):
So many toils and snares. I'm sure there was more than just the, hey let me beat my own chest to talk about how great I am. Right? The point is you've got a keen eye on that three to one ratio. You knew that was your target, you're not hitting it. And then finally you turn the corner with this spot. Let's hear it. This is the legal minute with super lawyer Darren Cki, founder of one 800 no cuffs. Jason's on the line.

Announcer and Soundbites (36:00):
Yeah. Uh, Darren big time fan of your TV shows.

Darren Kavinoky (36:03):
Hey thanks for watching. I hope you never need to call us at one 800 no cuffs.

Announcer and Soundbites (36:07):
Uh, real quick question about DUI. If I get arrested, should I take the blood or the breath test?

Darren Kavinoky (36:12):
Here's the deal. If you are arrested for DUI, you do have the choice between a breath or a blood test. All things being equal, I prefer blood. And I'll tell you why with a blood test it can take more time to get which may be helpful to your case. The integrity of the blood sample can also be called into question. But most important, there's just one needle stick with breath. You actually blow into the machine twice. And why give the prosecutor two bites at the apple? It's a great question. Thank you so much for the call. If you are ever in trouble, call us at one 800 no cuffs. 'cause let's face it, no one looks good in handcuffs. You know, unless you're into that sort of thing, call us at one 800 no cups. Alright so that is the one before. Yeah, here's the difference between that and our previous spots that really played well.

(37:00):
So number one, it sounded like a radio show. So if you're first in the pod, the listener is not going, oh is this commercial I want to tune away from? But they're like oh this is part of the show. So you got only just a brief little window of time to capture 'em. Then the other thing is I wanted to do something that was, you know, edutainment or infotainment, you know, where I wanted to drive better water cooler conversation. 'cause just like we were talking before the show, you know, you and some of the guys were asking me like oh so what do I do if I get pulled over? Like that's the question I get asked so often. So it's like okay great, let's tell people what to do. And we did a whole spot around, you know, what do you do if you get stopped and hey, the right to remain silent only helps you when you exercise it.

(37:44):
So shut up, you know <laugh> and by the way the cops, we would get complaining calls sometimes from like a CHP officer or somebody who's like, don't tell people this. Well yeah, it doesn't help the CHP investigate cases when people understand that for example, the only reason that people are doing field sobriety tests, you know, the roadside gymnastics stand on one leg and walk and turn and all that. It's not that they're legally obligated to, they're being invited to by the police officer and they're consenting. So guess what? Don't freaking consent. You know, don't help them gather evidence to be used against you because I mean that's a whole other conversation. But when we started putting these factoids into the radio spots, it made people actually want to listen.

Stew Redwine (38:25):
So it's tied to an observation about human nature that like you said, it's these water cooler conversations about right in your specific case, this isn't gonna work for everybody but this is, it's endlessly fascinating.

Darren Kavinoky (38:37):
Well it is 'cause for us the object of the game, I mean look I was in a business that was dependent. It wasn't enough for people to know like, and trust me, I was dependent on the behavior of third parties whom I have no control over IE police officers, right? No one's gonna call me unless they've been arrested and I can't control that. So like I wasn't getting on radio 'cause I was hoping that at the moment somebody's released from jail and they're on their way home to take a shower. I want them to hear my ass exercise, right? Shut that. I need to be playing a branding game so that when the need arises I am top of mind. And that was what one 800 no cuffs allowed me to do

Stew Redwine (39:18):
And you did it very well. Just quickly, what was the timeline from, I'm gonna begin investing in audio to this turning the corner. How long was that process?

Darren Kavinoky (39:26):
Probably took me, I have to go back and look at the logs but it probably took me a year to figure that out. And

Stew Redwine (39:33):
Just guessing how much you think you invested before you hit the unlock?

Darren Kavinoky (39:37):
Hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Stew Redwine (39:38):
Okay. Half a million dollars.

Darren Kavinoky (39:40):
$1 million.

Stew Redwine (39:42):
Yeah that's important for CIOs to hear. 'cause audio it doesn't always have to take that. It's not to go like you need to spend half a million dollars before you learn anything. But no, just to show you need to be prepared. Well and tying back to the idea of offense that you are willing to take on that risk. And also again, I think a headline here that's coming to me as we're doing this is that if there are other people doing what you do succeeding in the channel, it's a

Darren Kavinoky (40:05):
Four minute mile.

Stew Redwine (40:06):
It's the four minute mile. Yeah you said it, it's a four minute mile. Yeah, that's a beautiful way to say, okay, the next stop along the road. So you discover infotainment and then you start doing spots.

Darren Kavinoky (40:14):
Then the progression was that Legal minute started as 60 seconds. Then we realized, hey you can call it the legal minute and buy a 30 and no one's running a stopwatch. Then it's like okay they know us. What's the frequency play? And we did a lot of fifteens and this evolved, this took years to get to but then it became a thing where they've already heard our ads, they've heard our ads for years. We just need to, it's like putting a question mark on a text message to get that chain up at the top. We just need to get that top of mind again. And so we moved to fifteens

Stew Redwine (40:46):
And so this is an example of one of those.

Darren Kavinoky (40:49):
I think putting a penny in your mouth can beat a DUI breathalyzer, I'm attorney Darren Cki from one 800 no cuffs and sucking a penny won't help. What will help is if you just shut up, it doesn't make you look guilty, it makes you look smart. Call one 800 no cuffs, that's one 800 no cuffs.

Stew Redwine (41:06):
We were gonna potentially listen to other local audio ads and like break 'em down with audio lytics, which is the system. We use it Oxford Road to grade ads. It's just, I'm like having a visceral response. Even listening like there's so much you're doing right in that. And I did run some of these ads through audio lytics. Yeah our target is like a 90%, your ads are scoring in the mid eighties, like right in there at like optimum spot. And it's just like yes, because this is what local radio advertisers understand and seeing you just hearing you right here, you know you go okay, I tried some different messaging, I knew it could work 'cause I saw it the four minute mile so now I'm gonna try it out. I'm gonna optimize my message and then having the view of it to go, oh okay now we just, it's more about frequency and I can go down to a 15. Honestly this is what's crazy to me listening to this stuff before the show. I didn't even realize that was a 15.

Darren Kavinoky (41:57):
Yeah,

Stew Redwine (41:58):
If we just sort talk about oh yeah Stu, I sent you those spots. Oh and the penny in the mouth only is a 30. I would've gone. Oh yeah, I just remember that. It was interesting. I remember the penny in the mouth thing. But it's interesting that the duration mm-hmm <affirmative> doesn't even matter. And then I think it's really cool hearing how you went from infotainment, it's the legal minute and now it's the legal minute but it's only 30 seconds to now we don't even need to say that. Right? But you're still using the same approach. Right. And one last thing I wanna say is the way you come across is earnest and honest and real.

Darren Kavinoky (42:24):
Well I think authenticity trumps polish and there's an enthusiasm that founders bring that copyright readers or AI voices simply cannot. And it's funny 'cause Alice hated my voice and then people would say, oh you've got such a unique voice for radio. To me it sounds like scratchy, a little froggy. What? You know how it is when you hear record. Well it could could also

Stew Redwine (42:43):
Saying you're just not handsome. Boom roasted. Correct. That's the

Darren Kavinoky (42:46):
Other, you've got a face made for radio. Yeah, my mom would tell me that all the time

Stew Redwine (42:49):
Growing up. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Darren Kavinoky (42:50):
Yeah. But no, I think also the thing I love, I haven't heard those spots for a while, but the thing that I really love about it is it reminded me that for the fifteens we hit a formula and the formula was ask a provocative question. 'cause we love question as human beings, we love riddles, we love solving the riddles. And if I hear a question, I gotta wait for the answer. It's the same reason why if I'm flipping channels around, God forbid I see 30 seconds of like dateline. Because even if I know the story, I have to see how they conclude the story, right? And so it's the same thing where if I ask a good question that is engaging, they want to hear the answer and they're gonna stick around until they do. And so this was provocative question introduction, like who the hell am I?

(43:31):
And work the phone number in answer to the provocative question, phone number. It just became formula. And then once we figured out the formula, then it's like, okay, how do we just wordsmith in as many provocative questions? And the most popular one was the 15 of shut the bleep up. Let's hear it. I'm attorney Darren Kaki, founder of one 800 No cuffs reminding you to exercise your right to shut the up. It doesn't make you look guilty, it makes you look smart. One 800 no cuffs because no one looks good in handcuffs unless you're into that sort of thing. One 800 no cuffs. So people loved the shut the bleep up and that was just the most popular ad people. Matter of fact, when we rotated in different ad, sometimes people would complain to me like, bring back the shut the bleep up. I just love that ad.

Announcer and Soundbites (44:18):
I love that.

Darren Kavinoky (44:18):
And the other thing that I realized was the tagline that bit, you know, no one looks good in handcuffs unless you're into that sort of thing. And it's a bit of a voice inflection trick, right? It's to really get the double entendre of it. But what that did, you know, it's funny 'cause it just, we left it in one time as a joke just 'cause I've got whatever sense of humor that my daughter is regularly embarrassed by. But to me that was just like some funny stuff to leave in the ad. What happened was I realized very quickly that that was the stickiest, most memorable piece in the ad. So it literally that tagline from the moment we realized that people loved it, like it never went away. But one of the things that that tagline does, and I think here's a challenge for, you know, founders or creatives, chief marketing officers, that tagline in that tagline, there's a world that gets communicated, which is that, hey, we're lawyers and what we do is serious, but we don't take ourselves so seriously.

(45:13):
And most importantly, we knew that when people, especially when you're calling a criminal defense lawyer, you've had a bad day 'cause you had a bad day, right? No one calls you criminal defense lawyer 'cause you're on a winning streak. And if you're in a car accident, you'll go to your boss at work and go, Hey boss, oh my neck's killing me. Do you know a good PI lawyer? And you'll ask all your friends for a PI lawyer if you get arrested, you are not going into your boss and say, Hey, do you know a good criminal defense lawyer? I picked up a DUI over the weekend, but don't worry boss. Right? So we knew that we had to be approachable and non-judgmental. Like we really spent time to think about how do we wanna show up for people, right? Recognizing that people aren't calling us on their best day. And so that tagline, as much as somebody may go, oh, that was just a goofy, funny tagline, there's so much that that tagline communicates about what people are gonna get when they call us. I think that I just can't underscore how important I think that tagline really is. The tagline is the opportunity to convey the ethos of your brand

Stew Redwine (46:11):
And you do it well. And it's every time that I come across the most iconic and memorable sonic logos or sonic brands, I have yet to run into the one that there wasn't a ton of thought and insight into designing what it's doing.

Darren Kavinoky (46:28):
But the thought and insight really is about solving your customer's problems. So for example, in my career, I pivoted, you know, this to my criminal defense background, turned out to be a great background as I pivoted to this very niche area of representing sexual assault victims, typically women who are sexually assaulted during gynecological exams. And so I had a very large case against UCLA where represented more than 300 women. And what was interesting is at the time we were new in the space, my female partner and I who did this work, there was a lawyer who was, you know, the 800 pound gorilla in this world of sex abuse cases. And we got more than twice as many clients as this guy did. We had over 300, he had 150. And it just speaks to the power of marketing and what we did. 'cause I realized very quickly in that particular case, it was a different pain point.

(47:19):
It was a different issue. It was that no woman, and frankly this is true for men who are sex abuse victims as well, no one wants to talk to a dude about what happened. Dudes won't, don't wanna talk to other dudes about it. Women sure do not wanna talk to a Y chromosome person about what happened and you know, the intimate details of their gynecological exams. So this was like a radically simple idea. You'll only talk to a woman when you call. And we had a call center 'cause we need a call center and we would only let female operators on that. I'd a team of female attorneys to intake those calls. And it was wildly successful and the market proved it because on paper that other guy, the a hundred pound gorilla, he should have got all the cases, got half as many cases.

(48:02):
And sadly there's a new gynecological abuse case this time outta Cedar-Sinai. And you know, I thought I was outta the game and got dragged back in the game just because I can't stand that bullshit. I became a lawyer to stand up to bullies. I don't like bullies and so I can't not do it. But we've already got 50 clients because you'll only speak to a woman when you call. And like there's obviously there's more. We achieved an outsized settlement. It was the largest sex abuse settlement ever paid by a public institution in my UCLA case. It was the largest settlement in the country that year for a sex abuse case. So like that's also helpful. But I think as much as women want to know or clients want to know, hey you're competent, you're good at what you do. I think that's kind of assumed oftentimes. Maybe it shouldn't be, but I think it is. I think really they're more concerned about not talking to a dude

Stew Redwine (48:49):
Which communicates competence in a much better way.

Darren Kavinoky (48:52):
Right.

Stew Redwine (48:52):
'cause it shows you because it shows you understand them. Exactly. That's what I'm taking away. So this has been amazing, Darren, thank you for coming on. Adam Infinitum. I feel like we told a lot of the story, but in many ways only part of the story. I know there's also TV ads, award winning creative, there's so much that you did. The big takeaways for the chief audio officers that are listening from Darren's journey in being so successful in audio is be bold, not boring. And this is where I'd tie into what you added to it, which is the four minute mile. Look at who's been successful. And you know what? In those rare cases where somebody hasn't broken the four minute mile in your category in audio, be the one to make it work. But be bold, not boring, you gotta stand out from the sea of sameness.

(49:29):
But do that in a thoughtful way. Test and learn. If you listen to Darren's story mm-hmm <affirmative> it was methodical. He knew what his goals were, he was data driven and with that then he was able to take risks. I've just been recently reading a book called Sonic Branding by Daniel M. Jackson and just very simple in the forward by Fru Haslet, managing director of UK Yahoo, that dates this book a little bit. It was written back in 2003. He says, in conclusion then let me leave you with this. If you care about what your brand looks like, then you should most certainly care what it sounds like. And that's what I hear you saying with what are you saying? What does that communicate? It communicates the ethos of your brand. And I think <laugh> a really huge piece there in both cases, one 800 no s and in your current work, it shows an understanding of your audience, which is the next point, know your audience.

(50:19):
And then also trust in the staying power of audio in that audio is processed in the exact same part of the brain where we process emotion, where we access memories and also create memories. And so like you were saying, Darren, you knew 'cause people have broken the four minute mile that it could work. And you also, I'm assuming from the people who had broken the four minute mile that you saw that, oh I've gotta stay on, if I stay on and audio over the long term, it's gonna pay off for me. And that's exactly what happened for you with one 800 no s. And it sounds like your understanding of human nature and your consumer, it's happening as well with your new endeavor. And I suppose if there was one last thing is like there is that experimentation phase and then once you get there and you land on what really works, once you'd gotten it really dialed, Darren, I guess I'll ask you one last question. I'm sure you unlocked the power of being consistent.

Darren Kavinoky (51:09):
Yeah, that was the other thing that we discovered on the buy side is consistency is key. You know, you can rest it. When we got to the point where on multiple stations, right, so we would have, we generally go three weeks on maybe one week off on a particular station and then we would alternate those break. So we were never fully off radio.

Stew Redwine (51:29):
That's because you understood its power and you were offensive in your approach to make it work. You went on offense and you reaped the benefit. Darren, this has been an amazing conversation. Thank you for coming on ad infinitum your journey from just initially making your, it's like how did you become so successful in audio, Darren? I suppose one answer is one mistake at a time. Exactly. To a wild success where people recognize and know one 800 no cuffs. I'll even say if you ask chat GPT for the most iconic advertisers in audio over the last, I think I said 40 years, one 800 no cuffs was on that list. No kidding. Yes. I love Chad GBTI was like, oh my

Darren Kavinoky (52:05):
Gosh, I love it. I asked Chad, GPT, who the top sex abuse law firms are in the country. We were number one,

Stew Redwine (52:12):
Chad, GBT. You can use that to substantiate yourself on your next ad. Exactly. So

Darren Kavinoky (52:17):
Chad, GBT ranked us number one.

Stew Redwine (52:18):
Thank you so much Darren. Where can people find you or learn about what you're doing, your important work? As a father of two daughters, I'm grateful for how you're standing up against bullies. Where can people find out more about that?

Darren Kavinoky (52:28):
Yeah, the easiest one is ob GYN abuse.com.

Stew Redwine (52:31):
Okay. Well thanks again Darren for coming on the show.

Darren Kavinoky (52:34):
You are welcome Stu. Really a pleasure man.

Stew Redwine (52:35):
Thank you so much. I had a blast. To our listeners, thank you for listening to Ad Infinitum. If you love this episode, let us know with an honest five star review and if there's a local audio ad you'd like us to break down, drop me a note at stew@oxfordroad.com. And until next time, remember when we hear, we feel, keep pushing the boundaries of sound and have fun making the ads work.