Avenging Audio: Podcast Movement Evolutions 2025

Stew Redwine (00:00):
This is Add Infinitum. Add Infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads, the creatives who make them and or the latest thinking that informs them how the space is evolving. And my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads with Analysis by yours truly Stu Redwine and each episode's guest. This is a special episode of season three of ad infinitum recording live from podcast Movement Evolutions 2025 in Chicago. And I have the audio Avengers with me yet again. I'm so excited about what you're about to hear. Be sure to like, share and subscribe. And this special episode of Ad Infinitum is brought to you by Sounds Profitable who provided the space for us to set up our microphones. And also Brian Barletta lent me his personal SD card to be able to put in the audio recorder so we could even record today. I mean we're doing this live in person so why don't you guys just introduce yourselves. Who are you and what do you do in this wacky world of podcasting?

Adam McNeil (01:19):
My name is Adam and I am known, I think as a LinkedIn influencer these days more than anything. But my day job is SVP of Client Services at Adopter Media podcast advertising agency.

Arielle Niesenblatt (01:29):
My name's Ariel Blatt. I don't know where to put my eyes. I'm freaking out.

Stew Redwine (01:33):
You can look at all of us.

Arielle Niesenblatt (01:34):
So used to recording remotely. I write a podcast recommendation newsletter called Earbuds and I work for a company called Pinwheel, which is a production studio that does chat shows and video things. Perfect. Thank you so much.

Stew Redwine (01:49):
I'm still figuring out how this board works. <laugh>, that's perfect for Amelia <laugh>.

Amelia Coomber (01:54):
Amelia Kuber, I'm the CMO at my pod scribe and yeah, excited to be here. I also dunno where to move my eyes. <laugh>,

Stew Redwine (02:02):
We don't know how to act in public. And last but certainly not least, Paul Reese

Paul Riismandel (02:06):
Spinel, president of Signal Hill Insights.

Stew Redwine (02:09):
Yes, we assembled the audio Avengers Avengers. I titled this episode Avenging Audio and especially coming out of Dan Granger's keynote speech that he just gave here at Podcast Movement Evolution. What I want to talk about, and you guys will have to keep me honest on fact checking here a little bit, so like with YouTube recently launching RSS support, it's pushing video podcasts is the next big thing. I mean really look, it's just a question of, Dan gave us a definition of what is a podcast in brief, there was a longer definition, but it's if it works with your eyes closed, it's a podcast. And then if it has video components that are integral to the audio, it's a video podcast. Where are you guys at with video and podcasting and how it's changing the landscape?

Adam McNeil (02:53):
I think it's good At some level, discoverability is really good. At the end of the day when I'm buying media, I'm looking for influence impressions and if that's on YouTube, if that's on podcasts, wherever that is, we're gonna buy it and we're gonna find a good value point. Video doesn't seem to detract from what audio or podcasting is to me. I think that there's bad video. I think that there's bad audio too where video-based shows try to make it audio-based podcasts and there's equal problems there as there are audio podcasts trying to make a video version of what they're doing. I think you should stick with what you're really good at, focus on building your core audience there and if it makes sense for your show to supplement that in another form, do it.

Stew Redwine (03:28):
That's a great point. And Ariel, you were just in Dan's keynote. What did you think of those definitions that he offered up?

Arielle Niesenblatt (03:35):
I applaud the attempt to make anything definable. I think it's really, really hard nowadays to come to any sort of, you know, conclusion that other people besides you and your organization understand. So like I'm all about put it out there and let's see if people adopt it.

Stew Redwine (03:50):
I mean Paul, you were in there as well. What did you think?

Paul Riismandel (03:52):
I love that. I have to say that I participated in some of the conversations leading up to that with Dan, but that's exactly where it come down. I think video has been a net plus for podcasting in that it has brought in audience, it has become a gateway, but I don't think it detracts from audio podcasting. I don't think that that audio podcasters are losing audience to video. But if they do video it can be a way to grow their audience. It's not for everyone. I would agree exactly with what Adam said is that do what you're best at, right? So and if video is not appropriate for you, I think that's actually fine, but it can be a growth engine and really take a step back and remember though that audio is why people are there. We know that people, they tell us they don't watch discrete much at a time or they have the tab open but they're not looking at, they're in a different tab. So with video, so we know that still audio I think is primary and I think that is the most important part of that definition.

Stew Redwine (04:47):
And Amelia, where do you come down on it all?

Amelia Coomber (04:49):
Yeah, I mean I think it's great. There was a talk yesterday with her, I forget her last name, but Stephanie, she works at YouTube and so she likes to say like eyeball's optional and something that she brought up that I think you guys are all hinting at, which is there needs to be an intentionality behind like the YouTube side or the video side of a podcast. Again, is it gonna add value? What is that value gonna be? I think that there, because it's now like an expected default that you're gonna put your audio show on YouTube, people are just sort of putting it on there and then expecting it to you know, be discovered and to you know, get this huge visibility and stuff. And I don't think that's how it works. I think like Midas Touch is a really, really great example. They obviously have a podcast version and a video version, but they really use the out of YouTube and like the products that they offer. So like you know the YouTube shorts and their thumbnails and stuff. Everything is perfectly optimized for discoverability. And I think that if you're gonna be on YouTube you have to think about how you can leverage and work alongside, you know, other platforms algorithm rather than just expecting it to work the same way as like an Apple or Spotify would.

Arielle Niesenblatt (05:40):
I'm just gonna add something no more. Can I? No more permission. Thank you. I think that a lot of the conversation needs to be divided between the people, the creators, the networks that have the resources to potentially divide their video and audio into like they actually have enough people to do research to figure out like that people want video for these segments and maybe they only care about audio only for these types of segments. And then there's the people that are like, ah shit, like I'm getting into podcasting and I've heard I need to do video. And to those people I say record, you're probably gonna be recording remotely anyway. Use some of it, use all of it, test it. But like it's a different conversation between those two groups because one is potentially selling ads with more impressions because they now have video and one is like potentially bankrupting themselves because they're deciding that they must do video and I don't think that they must do video.

Paul Riismandel (06:27):
That's really great. I really like that breakdown and you'd still need to come back to like why are you doing this? You ultimately have to ask your question, why am I doing this? And secondarily, who is my audience and what do they want? You know, however you do that research, whether it's on social media, you ask them to email you or you have the means to do something more formal. That discovery I think is really important and always as a podcaster you should be thinking about if you care, if you want to grow, who is your audience and how do I serve them?

Stew Redwine (06:54):
It's amazing watching podcasting grow up. And it is sort of funny because as you guys know, like I only even started coming to these like a year ago because to me it's been quite a wild journey. I've just always been so head down at Oxford Road and like just wasn't looking up from what I was doing and I have this or here dear listener, I have a wooden ore that I went and bought yesterday in Chicago. Uh, you need to go look at the YouTube version to see that.

Amelia Coomber (07:16):
Are you gonna be able to fly with that Like <laugh>,

Stew Redwine (07:18):
I haven't figured this part out. Do you wanna guess how much this cost at REI

Amelia Coomber (07:21):
302 50 was gonna be my guess

Stew Redwine (07:23):
1 75, 180 winner winner chicken dinner. That might be the only rating we're actually gonna do.

Amelia Coomber (07:28):
Adam gets it now.

Stew Redwine (07:28):
<laugh>, it doesn't surprise me. The LinkedIn influencer Adam McNeil wins once again. So it was a few years ago I made the decision to like commit to my craft. 'cause sometimes it's like jokingly, it's something an old producer friend of mine said is when I ask him I'm like how did you get into producing television commercials? He is like one mistake at a time, you know, similar sort of path to me. I've been very reactionary when I reflect on my life journey, which it's worked out. But I reacted a lot as opposed to like I'm gonna go exactly to this exact spot, I'm gonna move in this exact direction. And like a lot of us work with founders and those sorts of folks where it's like wow that's really, wow it's not me but it's probably like four or so years ago have this painting in my office of Odysseus and there's this point at the end of all of Odysseus's adventures where you know he's more footloose and fancy free a God tells him to take an or from his ship that he'd used on all his adventures and walk inland until they didn't recognize it till they thought it was a winnowing fan.

Arielle Niesenblatt (08:23):
Wow.

Stew Redwine (08:23):
Which is what you used to beat grain. It's called Odysseus' winnowing ore. And there he is to marry, commit to his craft and build his home. And that was like a decision point for me a few years ago. Like I'm gonna be excellent at this, I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna pop my head up and actually start contributing. And so that's what I started to do. You guys I feel like have been way more active longer. So what I wanted to do is go around the table, I go which podcast movement is this for you? How many of you come to and what do you think? And I'll give you one last thing as like context. What is your view on it today? Verse that first one. Okay. And what was interesting to me is I was at the ays and at the table that I was at was the Hollywood reporter that got assigned to the ays and he got assigned to it 'cause he's from Chicago. I was like, so you've been on the podcast beat for a while? Like you? He's like no, no they assigned me 'cause I'm here. And so I was like, so this is your introduction to podcasting. Tig Nataro hosting the Amby. He is like yeah. I was like okay.

Arielle Niesenblatt (09:17):
And making fun of podcasting

Stew Redwine (09:18):
And making fun of the whole time. Yeah but I'm like there's a lot more to the story. This actually is a funny snapshot in history if you're to go, oh I see this is what podcasting is all about. It's <laugh> like what perspective. So I wanna get your guys' perspective. So we'll just go around the table. I, Adam I'll start with you. How many podcast movements have you come to and like Adam of the past and Adam of today and perhaps uniquely segue into your view for the future?

Adam McNeil (09:39):
Sure. Adam has been to five podcast movements now this is number five I suppose. And I've been to a handful of podcast shows or whatever else out there now. And Adam's view in the past probably would've been more arrogant for sure.

Arielle Niesenblatt (09:52):
Yeah he would never refer to himself in a third person. What <laugh>? No.

Adam McNeil (09:56):
Well Adam today now looks back on Adam of yesterday and realizes he probably had a lot to learn. I came outta the brand side when the industry wasn't really talking much about how to do podcast advertising. It was a gated community When I got here and I kind of cracked open that door by just posting what I was doing on LinkedIn and on Twitter and I probably offended some of the industry pretty early on with takes that I was seeing because I think sat creators didn't really know what brands were actually looking at at that time because nobody knew brands weren't speaking because frankly some of them were making outsized returns on what they were spending. They didn't want creators to know maybe I was too stupid and I shouldn't have poked the bear. But now I think today's Adam looks at the industry and goes, now we're all filled with a little bit too much of a Dunning Kruger effect I think where a lot of people think they know a lot about how podcast advertising works so they make a lot of changes and assumptions and tell brands what they want without really taking the time, the development, the research to ask and go what do you actually look at and what would be really valuable for you and how can we make this better?

(10:54):
But they make a lot of assumptions. Rarely ever do people come and consult with you know myself about hey how can I make this better for you for the brands so that they get an outsized return so that they wouldn't invest more. It's a lot of how do we get more out of the brand because we think we know what we're doing.

Arielle Niesenblatt (11:07):
My reaction to that is that it's just very different from my journey, which is the transition. I have been to podcast movement a lot. I haven't counted, my first one was in 2017 at Anaheim and I went because I was not yet working in the podcast space but I had a newsletter and I emailed Dan and Jarret and I was like, can I please come to podcast movement for free in exchange for putting an ad in my newsletter? And they said yes. So I drove to Anaheim and I parked in $50 parking and that was a lot at the time because I was like working for myself and like Hebrew schools and like hoping that I would like eventually work in the podcast space and I just like went to every single booth and I shook hands with every single person hoping to eventually find a job and I didn't care where the job would be.

(11:47):
I like didn't know yet that it was gonna be more creator side. Sometimes I work in software, I do a bit of production. But what I mean is like it's so interesting hearing you Adam talk about your journey at podcast movement and what it brings you to understand about the podcast space because it's very ad buyer focused and I think about them but more from my perspective as a listener and I really just hope that the industry stays healthy so that we can like keep doing these events and keep, like you said before, coming up with ways to standardize the industry so that we can hopefully get more people paid to make things.

Stew Redwine (12:19):
You know? And that's like I love history and it's like you know the best predictor of the future is the past when humans organize, you know, it's like the wild west. And I thought that was like if I put a headline on, I think Dan put in words what many of us are feeling. It's like, oh like the wild west era is over. We can build towns now we can have counties. Maybe we need to make smaller counties. I was getting into Billy the kid a couple of years ago found out that Lincoln County where there was all these outlaws, turns out it's the size at the time, the size of Ireland and it had one share it for the sky. So no wonder they had some trouble. But you slice it up smaller, you define things, you're able to contain it. So it sounds like that for you Ariel, the main thing is seeing the space grow up and you are optimistic at this turning point.

Arielle Niesenblatt (13:10):
I'm always optimistic and that could be my fatal flaw. I really believe that. Like if we speak the problems out loud and we want to fix them, they are fixable.

Stew Redwine (13:19):
Yes. And that's interesting 'cause I felt there was something on the tip of my tongue like Adam and what you were saying to me that's connected somewhat and that it sounds like you're saying there's still some BS artists out there.

Arielle Niesenblatt (13:28):
Oh my god, of course.

Adam McNeil (13:30):
Sure. But also today is way healthier than it is as a collective industry. Like our industry is more connected now what I do think is happening is that there's a bit of a further gap between the podcaster and the brand today than there was five to six years ago. So there was a more direct relationship that occurred. Onboarding calls would happen with the talent.

Stew Redwine (13:47):
Yes.

Adam McNeil (13:47):
Especially at least from the agency perspective. 'cause that's the world I live in. There's you know, 12 different people. It used to be every call, every call, there's 12 people between the brands dollar and the podcaster receives it. Now that communication goes through, whether it's the ad seller, their ad ops, my ad ops, the production team, whoever it is that finally gets there, there's a big gap. And I think that that is just miscommunicating a lot of what from again my perspective, what do brands actually want? Is that making it to the podcaster in the way that it should be? Or is it getting misconstrued because the sales person or the ad ops on the network side is saying, well the brand said this but they mean this. No, no they probably meant what they said and you should pass that along.

Stew Redwine (14:23):
Interesting. Okay. Yeah I was trying to connect the thread there. That's also another piece of something growing up and then getting industrialized is like well then we gotta watch out for it getting overbuilt or too much bureaucracy. Mm-hmm <affirmative> So definitely a theme appearing. Amelia, how about you? How many podcasts of movements?

Amelia Coomber (14:39):
I think this is four. Yeah, done. Like the podcast show in London and things like that. But yeah, four

Stew Redwine (14:44):
Amelia of the past, Amelia of the present.

Amelia Coomber (14:46):
Yeah Amelia of the past

Stew Redwine (14:48):
Bright-eyed and bushy tailed.

Amelia Coomber (14:49):
She was just an ignorant little fetus <laugh>. You know, it's funny because I think the Wild West thing is interesting. I actually, I don't know if I think we're there, I think we're at a pretty crazy inflection point where I think the nature of content as a whole is changing. I think we're starting to get back to long form video, which I think the tiktoks and the Instagrams of the world sort of like killed our, you know they gave everybody a DHD, right? So we couldn't watch anything that was longer than 12 seconds. And I think that podcasting and long form content of that nature is coming back and that's really exciting. But you know, it's funny because you come, the first podcast event I went to was in Denver and I watched a bunch of panels and it was all new stuff to me, right?

(15:25):
It was like oh yeah, like of course the host, you know, do what they do, right? Like don't give 'em a script and you know what's gonna be the future of attribution. And n video was still being talked at at that point, right? YouTube's been around for a long time, but I come to this one now, you know, two, three years later and I swear to God I'm listening to the same panels. And so I mean maybe that's a, we need to like you know, spruce up what we talk about a little bit. But I still think there's so much of what everybody is talking about is just what I heard two years ago. And I think that speaks a lot of volumes that there's a lot of where podcasting, whether it's podcasting or just content in general is gonna go and I think that's still really exciting. I think we are still in the wild west. I think we're about to come out of like a clearing and we're about to be like oh shit wait, there's actually a lot more frontier that we're about to you know, hit and we just can't see it yet. May I

Arielle Niesenblatt (16:09):
Add something about bull panels and stuff like that? Yes. Okay.

Stew Redwine (16:12):
Yeah, let's talk

Arielle Niesenblatt (16:13):
In 2017. This is my podcast movement origin situation.

Stew Redwine (16:17):
You're really like an avenger. This is your origin story.

Arielle Niesenblatt (16:19):
I love going back in time. Perfect. I'm emerging from the time machine <laugh>. So I arrived 2017. I have no idea what I'm doing, I just want a job so I'm going to like every panel and I'm listening to absolutely every panel and I'm taking it in as if it's fact. And again, I didn't know what I wanted to do so I was extremely impressionable. Then the next year, 2018 I have a little bit more experience under my belt. I've had conversations with people, I'm trying to figure out what lane I wanna occupy. So I start going to these panels and I realize they're the same as the last year and there's a lot of people who are saying a lot of grandiose statements that are not helpful and that are frankly a lot of like marketing guru bs. And I said to myself, okay I need to be on these panels 'cause I need to ship these people but not <inaudible> on them.

(17:03):
So I just need to like give opposite advice. So the next year I was on a panel 2019 in Orlando, the year of the fire alarm if anybody remembers it. <laugh> since then I've just noticed that a lot of the panels are very similar year after year. And this is not just true a podcast movement, this is everywhere. And it's because it's easy to submit ultimately like brands and companies want their CEO or CMO to be on a panel and it's easy to get them on a panel to talk about this broad thing that they can just get there and talk about so that they get a photo so that they can share with stakeholders that they spoke at this conference. And that's great but I really think that like over time we need to be at least calling out when we're not saying anything at all.

Stew Redwine (17:40):
So here's my theory, I think that is linked to the lack of definition and confusion.

Arielle Niesenblatt (17:46):
I think you're right. Yeah.

Stew Redwine (17:47):
Because if things were more clearly and understood and there was a lexicon and a unified form of measurement, then people can talk more specifically. You can't get super specific

Amelia Coomber (17:57):
Maybe. But I mean I don't know if a uniform measurement, I mean I wanna learn more about what Dan was saying. Like I think that there's that nuance in it actually brings a lot of like unique things like 'cause not there isn't one right? And I think that the problem has been, and don't get me wrong, like we should have standardizations for all of these sorts of things. But I think that especially with like the curriculum and stuff, I do think it's people like you Adam, right? You said that you know, like you sort of gained some, you know, visibility and stuff on LinkedIn 'cause you were just posting your raw authentic thoughts. Here's what I learned today, here's what I up on. You know, it's those sorts of like you were actually telling a story, not just like here's how I think about podcasts. It was like I did this run of network buy and then it was like tangible and we all have like tangible things and I don't know if we're at this point where we don't feel comfortable sharing or it's like our secret sauce or something. But I think that there's so much more that can be said and can be taught and for some reason people are not putting the effort or the energy into like let's dive into that and let's actually share those things.

Paul Riismandel (18:50):
Well it's hard. I mean so my first podcast movement was same as yours. Yay. 2017, I've counted up as 12 since then. This being number 12.

Arielle Niesenblatt (18:57):
We gotta go home.

Stew Redwine (18:59):
<laugh>, you are the veteran. As I emerged from the showcase showdown <laugh>, I meant to hit this button actually, hang on. I don't know what this one does. This might self-destruct.

Amelia Coomber (19:10):
That's not right.

Stew Redwine (19:11):
That sounds like an audio signature for some podcast network that's like the more you know you're listening to add Infinit. Yes. Spiritually Spirituality edition <laugh>. Everybody wants to say something. Go ahead Paul.

Paul Riismandel (19:22):
Back then my job title was podcasting evangelist at Midroll Media. <laugh>. That does deserve that. I chose the title a little bit as a goof but then we ran with it. 'cause when I started there we were a small bootstrap, one of the first, you know, successful ad networks in podcasting, owner of the Ear wolf network. And my job at that time was our content marketer, sales marketing. We didn't have anyone marketing the shows, we just let the shows market themselves at the time. And I saw my mission as education, right? So I wrote a blog, we had newsletters talking about how podcasting works as an advertising medium, you know, beginning in 2014 because we really believed as a company and the reason they brought me on is that we had to tell everybody, we had to show the way and we would benefit more by leading than following. And if we were giving away secrets, whatever secrets those were, that was better than having, you know, ad buyers agencies, brands not know what the heck this thing was. You know, that's been my journey. That's where it comes out. We got into research because buyers especially at large brands said, well okay, you're telling me all these great things about podcasting, it's intimate and you're telling me these things you learned from your audience, uh, prove the ads work.

Stew Redwine (20:38):
Correct.

Paul Riismandel (20:38):
Right. And that's, you know, obviously where tools like pod sites in the day now we have pod scribe, we have Magellan, we have Claus came to be, but we had to kind of grow it and the path I took was in in more of the upper funnel brand lift ultimately because that opened a lot of doors for Midroll at the time that had otherwise been closed. It brought on big brands like p and g which weren't going to invest in podcasting 'cause they're not focused on lower funnel. You know, they're focused on folks going into the store and buying something off a shelf, which is trackable but difficult. And that's kind of my journey to come today, which are of course I'm running a company that focuses on audience insights and brand lift. But I always thought it was, you know, that's why I really appreciate what you do anime and what you do, Amelia, all the time now with Pod Scribe.

Arielle Niesenblatt (21:20):
Not what I do, not what Stu does. We hear you. We see you.

Stew Redwine (21:24):
Yeah. This is live. Yeah, we heard that

Arielle Niesenblatt (21:26):
Done

Stew Redwine (21:28):
<laugh> Real battle <laugh>. Paul, what's your outlook with that perspective? You have the longest perspective, I suppose, of all of us on

Paul Riismandel (21:35):
Podcast movement. On podcast movement. I mean it's not surprising. We have the same conversations over and over again. Prior to podcasting I was working an online video and I would go to the online video conferences and they were also the same conversations over and over and over again.

Arielle Niesenblatt (21:49):
I think it's because of what I said, I think it's because it's like the, you need your C-E-O-C-M-O to be on a panel and you don't have time to prepare them. So you're like, let's go with this broad topic. Yeah, lazy.

Paul Riismandel (21:59):
I don't know if it's lazy. There's a little amnesia one that we just forgets what happened last year and there's also people who wanna be on panels who didn't go to any other panels. So they just simply don't know what's come before or what's come after. There's a little bit of that as well. I'm sure there's some laziness.

Stew Redwine (22:14):
So we do have a battle <laugh>, how lazy are they? I'll second you on the lazy because, and maybe that's not the right word, but it's probably just a force at work. I think it is like what you were saying where it's like, hey we have this person amnesia. But what I wanted to say, and I know you're locked and loaded, I keep seeing your finger come up Adam, but responding to you Amelia, that everything that is being said is there is something that's so attractive about people just being raw and telling a real story about something that really happened. And I don't think that's specific to this industry or to these shows where, okay, so yeah, let's think about it. It's like, okay, if we've gotta get a CEO of wherever to come talk, let's talk about audience buying and no, there's really nothing you need to prepare. They'll just ask you some questions and it's like, okay, well that's why that feels like that. And I bet the surgical conference that's happening on the second floor, thank you to Nataro for reminding us is same kind of thing.

Arielle Niesenblatt (23:02):
They have research though that they're probably presenting and it's probably net new. I don't know,

Stew Redwine (23:06):
Possibly you may be giving them too much credit. What I was gonna say is,

Amelia Coomber (23:09):
I mean you guys have done that, right with the Chief officers conference, you guys brought that to the table.

Stew Redwine (23:13):
We did our medium. The bar is high for being raw and real.

Amelia Coomber (23:19):
That's so true. You're right. That's actually a great point.

Stew Redwine (23:21):
And so it's kind of like, that's like what we're in all the time. So we want people to like spill it. And your LinkedIn posts actually have inspired me. Well on my LinkedIn posts I'd like put emojis and do stuff like watch the best way to get a rough spot. And then yours are just like, it looks like he's just like writing

Paul Riismandel (23:36):
AI slot.

Stew Redwine (23:37):
It's almost even attractive the way that it's,

Paul Riismandel (23:39):
It's like a blog post

Stew Redwine (23:40):
And then I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna write whatever I think about this and I just go, blah. And those, the ones that get the best response, which is kind of like what I'm hearing us all say is like, yeah, it's nice when you go to a panel that's like that. Yeah, when someone just lays it out.

Adam McNeil (23:52):
Can I offer a diagnosis and a prescription to the industry that I think would be valuable? I don't believe that man's ever been to medical school. Here's my diagnosis. If we look at podcast movement and I'm gonna be critical for like 15 seconds and then I'm gonna give an optimistic take here. I think if you go to any other industry, you're gonna see the same issues at conferences. It's repeated. This is not a podcasting problem, this is an industry medium problem. Everywhere we go, you see it in the panels, there's less and less people that go to watch these panels because they're the same content over and over and over again. They're not drawn to anything because we're not saying anything that's draw worthy right now. And so we do need to step up that game and where people see that they do go, there are panels that get far more attention than others because they know that some of the people that will be on those panels will say something that sounds different to the rest of everything that they're hearing.

(24:36):
And sometimes being different is good, sometimes being different is bad. But at some level we do need to change things up and offer a take that maybe transforms the way people think. Here's how I think we do that right now in our industry, I think we've lost sight on who the most important stakeholders are. And it's not the industry, it's the audience, it's the podcasters and it's the people that are putting the money onto those things to support their work and creative. Everyone else. For the most part that sits here at these tables that goes out for dinners. We are all benefactors of this medium. We are the middlemen who get to take a little bit of that cut in that exchange that happens between those parties. But those are the most important parties. And if we come to the table, we come to these panels as defendants of those stakeholders and say we need to protect the audience in the best way possible and make sure that they are delighted in every aspect of what they're receiving.

(25:21):
That means better ads, that means, you know, whatever it is for them. Signal Hill Research does a lot on researching how do we make sure that this is a good thing for the listener? And similarly, how do we make sure this is great for the podcaster. And then lastly, and I don't know what's the most important stakeholder here, but the brands are a very equal part of this equation because without their revenue, without their dollars coming onto these shows, they can't keep producing. We don't have the the ability to afford unless you, maybe you come from good money, but I can't produce a podcast for nothing for the rest of my life.

Amelia Coomber (25:48):
Capitalism,

Adam McNeil (25:49):
It's important. And so if we prioritize those voices, we sacrifice our own personal gain of putting whoever on a panel to make us look good in the middle and prioritize how do we make the brand look great? The podcasts are extremely satisfied and the audience overwhelmingly enjoying of the content that they're getting, we'll have no problems here. Here.

Arielle Niesenblatt (26:07):
I think what's interesting is the audience, the people who are listening to this show right now that I think what you said is gonna be very helpful for them, but my audience knows all of that. Like the people that I hang out with at podcast movement, it is all already, we need to care about the audience more. Like we need to be thinking about who these shows are going to, what's the listener experience, blah, blah blah.

Adam McNeil (26:26):
And you're speaking to that stakeholder group, right? Right. And in the same way when I talk to brands, I'm speaking to them in that way, but I think in the middle where there's the industry side and that's where I'm probably the most critical because we gate keep so much, I'm part of that process no doubt. But if we can clean that up and be a bit more transparent and speak more openly and candidly about what's going on and how to better improve the experience between, I would say mostly between the podcaster and the brand, I think that that communication part of the journey that can get cleaned up a lot.

Arielle Niesenblatt (26:51):
I have a, another prescription, which I just found out is spelled PRE, not PER. So prescription. I know. Fascinating. I think that when people are submitting panels, even if they don't make you do this on like the intake form, you should at least write for yourself what the audience will gain from this session. That's like a curriculum thing from like if you're a teacher or if you are designing, you know, any sort of curriculum. But I think it's really important to say the key learning objectives of this thing, even just to have that standard for yourself, I think is really helpful and will hopefully guide you to, at the end of your conversation, have somebody say, wow, I actually got something outta this. And that is like, you know the best compliment you can get.

Stew Redwine (27:28):
<laugh>. Well guys, this has been amazing. Thank you for taking time at Busy podcast movement for us to put it out there a little bit more. This has been so awesome to be able to do it in person. I'm just grateful and it's cool. It's a completely different feel, isn't it?

Amelia Coomber (27:42):
I'm better at eye contact now. <laugh>, I feel like I just exercised that muscle a little bit. <laugh>,

Stew Redwine (27:45):
I feel like it even shifted from the beginning. It felt a little bit more like a Zoom call. And look, your

Arielle Niesenblatt (27:50):
Laptops, look, I figured it out, you guys.

Stew Redwine (27:52):
You figured out how to interact with the humans. I'm getting

Adam McNeil (27:54):
Much better endorphins from this

Paul Riismandel (27:56):
Launch. I'm feeling the warm fuzzies

Adam McNeil (27:58):
Here. <laugh>, do you know what I love about it too? Is that when you're in person, you don't have to try to figure out if someone's done talking or anything. You can actually see it a little bit more fast. Oh, it's amazing. I love

Arielle Niesenblatt (28:07):
This. Oh my God.

Stew Redwine (28:08):
Well, and I bet if we kept going, like we're even getting dialed in with our hand motions, where we would be playing like a jazz band, like no problem

Arielle Niesenblatt (28:15):
<laugh>, no, this is like podcasters discover podcasting

Stew Redwine (28:19):
<laugh>. And I think that's the perfect way to end it. That's exactly right. Let's see what these buttons do.

Arielle Niesenblatt (28:23):
Interesting.

Stew Redwine (28:26):
Woohoo. That's the one. Alright guys, thanks again to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to Add Infinit. If you love this episode, let us know with an honest five star review and if there's an audio ad or campaign you'd like us to break down, drop me a note at stew, STE w@oxfordroad.com. And until next time, remember to have fun making the ads work.