Captured in North Korea

back into North Korean territory. Una and a fellow journalists were then carted around to two different locations before being blindfolded and taken to an army base. Being blindfolded was very, very scared because you can't really see anything. But when someone snatched out the blind board and I was looking at the prison cell, and that just told me that everything is going to the opposite direction that I wished to go. Una ended up being held captive for one

hundred and forty days in North Korea. She was terrified and demoralized during her time there, but there was one part of her experience that surprised her. Before she moved to the US, Una had grown up in South Korea, where she'd been taught to view northerners as the enemy, but that changed for Una during her time in North Korea as she found herself building emotional connections with the people who were guarding her. There were some moments that

we could connect on a human level. There were some commonalogies that we could understand each other as parents and then also understanding the Korean kirture, and there were moments that we were able to mix more talk that was really helpful during that depension. On today's episode, how finding humanity and your enemy can help you survive, I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become in

the face of a big change. In March of two thousand and nine, Una Lee said goodbye to her husband and four year old daughter in California and traveled to China for a two week trip to make a television documentary about North Korean defectors. The crew included Una, fellow journalist Laura Ling, a producer, and a local guide or fixer as Una called him. On their last day of filming, they found themselves at the Tuman River, which flows between North Korea and China and is a route that North

Koreans used to seek freedom. Off in the distance in North Korean territory, their fixers saw these so called safe houses where defectors would wait and hide before trying to cross the river into China. Una and her team knew it was a risky move to try and film the safe houses up close, but they also knew these houses represented a critical part of the escape route, so they followed their guide to the midpoint of the frozen Tuman

River and crossed briefly over into North Korean territory. So after we get that foodie, we quickly left and then we were in the middle of the river and walking back and continued to filming and or producer he shouted soldiers. Two soldiers ran towards Una and her crew with rifles in hand, and we all ran as fast as we cou to towards Chinese soil. And my fixer who was running next me and asked me, are you filming this?

And I thought it's crazy, but then at the same time, you never know, so let me let me feel me because this is the thing that probably a lot of Norse cream defectors are facing. So I filiped the camera and put under my arm and push the record and then ran and our producer, who was an avid runner, he disappeared out of my sight fast. And when I arrived in Chinese soil, I found Laura just knee on ice, and then I just stopped running. So I asked her you okay, and she said I can't, you know, I

can't feel my legs. So in a flash, didn't know what to do with us. Somebody who can fill her leg and I knew that I cannot leave her alone there, and all these things in my mind, and then we were surrounded by two Norse Grand soldiers. So you find you find Laura on the ice, on her knees, unable to move, and you're now surrounded by North Korean soldiers.

What happens after you're caught? So there were two small North Grand soldiers, one what guarding Laura was guarding me, and they both were determined to drag us back to North Korea. And I was fighting. I grabbed anything that in front of me not to be dragged, and at some point he wanted to hit me because I was fighting against him, and then he lifted his rifle. Back of his rifle was pointing me, and so when I looked at him, and he was a young boy, maybe seventeen,

and they he he wasn't hesitating to hit me. So I quickly told him that I'm going to get up and walk with you. So I got up and walked with him, and I saw Laura, and when I looked her, she was unconscious on the eyes. She was hit by the other soldier, and I streamed her name over and over to wake her up, and she finally woke up, and I helped her and we got up and we both followed these two storgiers and across the river to North Korea. And what's going through your head at this moment?

In everything felt so surree. Your mind was everywhere and fear and worried and what's going on? And then and then it's silly. But I was hopeful too, because some of journalists sometimes talk to North Grand soldiers and then they write stories about it. So we knew about these things. So we were hoping that, oh, is it something that bad incident, but they're gonna extend us back home. I don't know, Oh, what's in my mind? I just couldn't believe.

I just couldn't believe what has happened. Like, it's not something that you can organize your thoughts and plan things. You just a face every moment that comes to you. And it was more like I need to become so that I can make the best decision or best reaction. So I think I was trying to become and I was trying to somehow find a human connection with them so that they won't be too brutal towards us. You say more about that, in what ways did you try

to find human connection with them? They were actually these boys were smoking while they're walking, and they offered me, do you want to smoke? I didn't smoke, but somehow I know that anything that similar action that you do, they will have the feel comfortable. So I said, I'm gonna yeah, give me one. After Unit and Laura were captured by these soldiers, they were moved to two different locations before being blindfolded and driven to an army base.

What is the army base? Like? It was like a matchbox along box buildings with gray color, and then they had an exercise yard in front of the building. Soldiers to practice knife fighting, and we were taken inside of or a sure moment to an officer, and the insight looked like a scene from World War two. Everything was so old in their telephone typewriters. Everything was like you

traveled Tiemotion two, nineteen forty. So you said to me that you were retaining some hope, you know, maybe it will be okay, maybe they'll let us, maybe they'll set us free. At what moment did you realize that wasn't going to be the case. Being blind folded was very scared because you can't really see anything. But when someone snatched out the blind board and I was looking at the prison cell, and that just told me that everything is going to the opposite direction that I wish to go.

And the cell was very small, and it was maybe five by seven maybe two others can lay down together that small cells. And they put Laura and I into two different cells, and in there there was nothing, nothing but myself and I was there for to nights, but there was a long tonight. And were you told what was happening? I mean, did you get did anyone let you know what the state of affairs was? What Laura and I quickly decided we are not going to tell

them they were from television Cavor Television. We were going to tell them we're students studying film, and then we followed our professor, which is our another producer who disappeared, So we kind of made that story. I kind of joked with my another producer in the plane, if anything happened, we tell this kind of story. I never knew that I was going to use that story, and they were. They were interrogating Laura May separate to get more information.

UNA's and Laura's stories did not completely match up, so they were immediately relocated to a secluded compound in Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea. There they were isolated in separate rooms. North Korean government officials repeatedly questioned Yuna and Laura for months with the goal of getting them to reveal the truth about who they really were and why they were there. Eventually, North Korea's tactics worked. In May of two thousand and nine, Una and Laura broke down

and signed a confession. They were brought to trial three weeks later and sentenced to twelve years in a North Korean hard labor camp. Yuna was stunned by the verdict when exactly they'd be transferred to the labor camp was still up in the air, but Una was paralyzed with fear about how she would survive her time there. That is the moment that I crush it. And at the time, everything that, all my hope, all my effort to put

myself together, just just crash it. And I I was so impanic mode, and North Korean officers brought doctors to make sure that I'm not going to lose myself. What did it look like for you when you lost hope? You know? North Korea gave me sleeping pills. I didn't take any pills that they gave me, and I collected them, and that's the moment that I felt like I wanted to just take them all and I wanted to find peace. It was so so hard to even breathe, and I

wanted to find the peace. And that's the moment that I really wanted to let everything go. But thankfully, you know, my daughter's face just passed by, It flashes me in front of me, and then I felt that's very selfish decision to make. So so one more day, you know, one more day. Someone wrote to me that it's one more day close to home. I don't think that you are adding days in North Korea. It's one more day close to home. So I reminded myself that. So I thought, Okay,

maybe this is the burden that I can handle. Still, you know, continued to fear her eventual transfer to a hard labor camp, and she desperately missed her family back in California, her husband Michael and her four year old daughter Hannah. She was rarely allowed to talk with them by phone, so she spent hours a day writing letters to Michael. Michael and I really left everything to God and then whatever we just uh without talking to each other.

We we knew that we couldn't control anything, and then we are gonna rely on God. Whatever happened, that would be okay. And Hannah was didn't know. We didn't tear Hannah that I was detained. She thought that I was on a business triph my God, but Michael thought that something. She knew something was wrong because he said she got up in the middle of night and started to cry out of nowhere. Um, we did our best to to protect Hannah. At the time, she was only four. Yeah. Wow.

So at one point, m Laura says to you, looking tell them that you have a daughter at home, I'll stay here instead, and and you refuse. You're clearly an exceedingly loyal person, right, But I'm wondering, you know, in that moment, how do you weigh these competing loyalties in your life? Right, you have loyalty towards Laura, you also have loyalty towards Michael and Hannah. You know, how do you think about that? It's such an incredibly painful and

challenging position to be in. I'm I'm I'm grateful that you you know, you're seeing this a really positive way. But I don't know. I I think I thought about it. I thought about why am I making those choices? Why am I not thinking about myself first? My family first. I always thought that my families are families always next to me, right, I always thought that they will be there all the nime. So my priority was somebody who need my help, not my family, because my family is

going to be always there. And why am I putting so much attention to others and then you're helping everybody else but my family? But I still don't know. I think it's because I cannot live if I think about myself. You know, I abandon something or abandon somebody else because of my own selfish reasons, I cannot live. I don't think in under any circumstances leaving Laura alone on the eyes,

by yourself. If I escape and then survived, I don't think I could have believed normal life the guilty feeling. If Laura said, you go home, you have a child, I'll stay here. If I said, okay, I'm gonna think about my family better and then leave Laura there by herself, I don't think I could have believe without any single day without guilty feelings. If I don't align with what I feel like what's right, then I would carry that burden with on my shoulders every day. We'll be back

in a moment with a slight change of plans. Korean American journalist Uni Lee and her colleague Laura Lying were captured in two thousand and nine by North Korean soldiers and had been sentenced to twelve years in a North Korean hard labor camp. The date for their transfer to the labor camp had not yet been set, so Una and Laura continued to spend their days in confinement and

a secluded complex in Pyengyang. One thing that really moved me about your story is that you were surprised by the kindness that the people you met in North Korea showed you, and that it violated your former assumptions given how North Koreans were portrayed to you growing up in South Korea. Right, Can you tell us a bit more about Officer Lee, who was put on your case. I remember one time I was loosing so fast in North Korea.

I lost about seventeen pound, and I was I started a small but then you know, losing seventeen pound was a lot at the time, but because of my summa was so small that I couldn't take a lot of food at once. And you're a prisoner, so they will give you any three meals a day, and I couldn't need a lot each meal. And I think he noticed that. He noticed that I couldn't need a lot, and he asked if I'm getting enough meal, And one day he brought some bread and gave to me to it. I

just snack. And the other time was after I was sentenced to twelve years at the North Korean court, I was frightened. I think that was the time that I dropped everything, and then I did not want to hang on anymore. It was almost like I wanted to just give up. And he wanted to somehow come for me, and he took me outside of my compinement and I told him I'm not not survived in the labor camp for twelve years, and he said, we're not going to kill you. So he did his best to come for

me when he could. Yeah, can you tell me about the two female guards and the bond that you eventually developed with them as well? Oh? Yeah, they were in young twenties and one girl was studying English. She wanted to be a translator, and her dream was to be a translator because she wanted to tell the world how how amazing her country is not that bad that like you guys, portraying we have something good about our country.

That was her dream. And she was very curious about some of the book that I received from home, and she wanted to have that book because she's studying English, right, so things like that. She asked me if she can borrow that book. Of course, you know, to give to her the book. And so we did do things when people were not around us. And the other girl was a beautiful. She had a beautiful voice. She was a really good singer. She sang to my surprise, she sang Celendians,

my heart will go on all the time. But honestly, I grew up propaganda towards North Korea, and then I thought that they don't want to do anything to do with America language, fashion or anything, you know, art culture. So I was actually very surprised that she was singing the song. And one day I told her, like, you have a beautiful voice. You want to be a singer,

and she said, no, I can't. And later I learned that to be a singer in North Korea you have to have money, you have to have a good family background or the things to be successful in seeing career. So she probably did not have any of those things. So I were so bad for her. So every time I see her that I wanted a kind of the value her, you know. The value was like you know, how good she is, and then how beautiful her voices.

And when she left that job the last day, I was really sick in my room so I couldn't move, and she came to me and told me that I hope that you'll get better soon. And then you'll be with your family. So and that was our last conversation. You know, was shown many small acts of kindness from the people she interacted with at the complex. They brought her treats like cherries and fruit juice and turned up

the volume on songs they knew she liked. And you know, it was charmed by how curious they were about many aspects of life in America, including day and one night stands. We were talking about dating, and then she asked, like, is that really true? There's one nice standing it is And then I laughed and I laughed and how did you guys even know? That's not even the country? Its stuff is so conservative in that culture, you know, dating churlture. And then I thought that was really funny that they

brought up. So when I said, like, I think so sometimes some people, it happens some people, not to everybody. And then they were like, oh, you know, like a little girls. So I felt I forgot. I forgot that I was a prisoner. At that moment, I felt like I was sitting in my high school classroom with my friends and talking about all these things. I think because

of me a prisoner. They were pretty in this job right twenty four seven, they couldn't go home, so they complained a lot about I want to go home, I want to hang out with my friend, and I want to do this. At some point I think they fail for me that, oh, she's someone who can go home five thousand miles from home then by herself. I heard she has a child, and they wanted without showing too much because of our relationship is guard and prisoner, so

they wanted to show their kindness very subtle way. The guards did that when they're by themselves. Obviously did that when you know, when someone wasn't around. So everything they do, the kindness, they did that when no one was around. At this point August two thousand and nine, Una and Laura had been held captive for more than four months in North Korea, and we're waiting to find out when

they be transferred to the hard labor camp. But unbeknownst to Una, former President Bill Clinton was on his way to North Ria at that moment to negotiate the release. And it was actually Officer Lee who take you off to this fact that Hope was on the way and that someone very important was coming to see her. It

was a President Clinton. Oh, my god, you it was I thought it was an angel standing and you know, he has gray hair, and there was a window behind him so you can see you can really see his face, but with a gray hair person with a tour guy with a very generous smile. And then he opened his arms. So we ran to him and he embraced us and

asked us are you guys saying okay. So he brought his personal physician with him, so he wanted us to talk to the physician to make sure that we are physically okay, conditioned to leave if he can make that happen. So he told us he has one more meeting to go, but she can't promise anything, but we want to make sure they are physically okay. And Laura and I were like,

we're okay, Yeah, We're okay, they can go. Yeah. I've watched the footage on YouTube, basically on loop in which you're getting off the flight and you reunite with Michael and Hannah. What's striking about the video it is that it is a complicated joy. Right. I thought everything is going back to normal, and then we remember everybody and I hug each other, and then you know, that's what I was what I expected, and when Hannah hesitant to

come to me, it really ached my heart. So one hundred forty days was a long time for this four year old girl. She was just so confused by everything, like seeing her mom after so long, and you know, seeing these old cameras and then people, and then in front of airport and I asked her, do you remember me? It's mom, I said in Kournian, and she nodded, and then can you give me a hug? And then she came to me and I do. It's that moment. Just thinking about that moment still make me choke. Yeah, yeah,

it's beautiful. So I I realized that it's been exactly twelve years since your captivity, and so in a counterfactual world, had you been in the labor camp for twelve years, this would have been the year that you were reunited with your your daughter, Hannah, right, who's now sixteen? Is that right? Yeah? We talked about it, My husband and I talked about that it would have been this year that we would be reunited if I didn't come home.

And every moment is like whenever I give her hug, whenever I you know, bless her and I and then it's I'm thankful, I'm thankful, and thank you we without saying we knew it, how we are blessed to be together. M You know, we've been talking about how during that period of your life, in the years leading up to North Korea and then even in the days you were in North Korea, UM, you were ruthlessly prioritizing others over

yourself and your family. And I want to know how that dynamic has shifted in your life, like, how, how how that's changed for you, if at all it did it? Did it? Did I put my family first before others? I'm not very I'm not gonna say that I'm very good at it one hundred percent. I'm changing it. No, But I can I can probably tell share. I can share that. No. I think about my family a lot more, a lot more than I used to be, and then I put them as a priorities and I don't for

them matter. I don't have a guilty feeling when I do that anymore. So I'm very thankful. I will say that. You know, in learning about your story, and you know, first of all the horrors of being detained in North Korea and all that came with that, One of the most painful moments for me was it was just a small line in your book, but for some reason it

really really moved me. You were saying that there was a night where you slept really well and you felt so burdened by guilt because you thought, how dare I sleep well when my family is suffering back home? And I guess the reason that that meant so much to me is that it showed me like the depth of complexity of what you were dealing with on a psychological level. It's like you're both trying to minimize your pain to survive, but then anytime you feel a moment of joy or

calm or happiness, you're saddled by guilt. You know, Maya, I still live live in that I cannot enjoy. I feel like I even after I came home, and then a lot of people pay attention to our stories, and you know, and I had a lot. I met a lot of friends who I never knew before, and all these things that they usually enjoy, even birthdays or happy moments,

that I couldn't enjoy it. I couldn't enjoy any happy moment because of that guilty feeling followed me from somewhere, and I was I was worried about what if, what if anybody's anybody's in pain, including including the the factors who we met. So so the moment that you want to when you go through the moment that it's painful, you want to get out of it right. You want to get out of that moment and you want to

have some easy, easy time. But when I got out of that paying for time and then I have a little bit of peace in me, then immediately that the guilty feeling came to me to bother me. Have you been able to make progress on that to feel that, just like all the people you're trying to help out there, including your family, that you you too deserve happiness and peace. I yea, I learned. I mean I feel happy when I say my family is happy, but my emotions are

very try. Since then, I tried to be happy. I tried to tell my stuff that it's okay to enjoy it. It's okay. So I tried to tell my stuff that your story makes me reflect on the fact that as people, we like to villainize whole swats of whole swats of people, you know, whole countries and a lot of people are

victims of their circumstance. You know, it's very possible Officer Lee didn't choose to be born in North Korea, right, It's possible that he's a really good hearted human being who is in terrible circumstances and in order to protect his family, he had to take this job. And from what you're describing, it seems like he brought as much humanity as he could to an otherwise really terrible position. Yeah, you're You're so right. Not everybody's have have that heart. Um,

try to be nice to your prisoner. They did not have to, and some of them I could see that it is a very bitter tourist to US and South Korea and then did not want to be nice at all. So I appreciate that that, even even that small kindness that I was able to receive during that harsh time.

You know, I've I've read a lot about your story and people are saying, oh, you know, they were nice because they were being manipulative, or she fills Stockholm syndrome or whatnot, and I just don't buy any of that. I'm sorry. Like, at the end of the day, we as humans can be discerning enough to know when kindness is unnecessary, but people do it anyway. I guess I just get frustrated by that critique of your of your

noticing humanity and others. I find it lightly offensive. Honestly, do we not want to say that humanity if someone's criticize it. I do, even even even if someone says, is that Stockholm syndrome ten years later, eleven years or later, I totally remember that small kindness. I'm not saying that everything was so wonderful and it was peaceful. There were many, many moments that I wanted to give up my life. Do we want to hold on that memory? No, I

don't want to. I want to believe that we all have a human as all kind heart somewhere they can we can bring it out. Then we will understand better. If you miss somebody on a human level, you'll have a better understanding. You have a better open heart to understand that person. And like Norse Koreans grow propaganda towards us, I did the same thing. We did not understand each other as human beings. And to me, Norse Koreans, to me now are the people who I remember who I interacted.

They are the Norse Korean to me now before my experience Norse Koreans or the ones that who I watched on news. Now I'm back to my normal life. I hate to forget about that, that the good side of human good human side. I hate to forget about it. It's so easy to forget and then focus on the news and then judge others by what you the information you received. So I'll try to remember that those people who I interacted, that's North Korean. You know. We gotta

have that human interaction. We gotta see each other, and I think every human being has that good side of humanity. Hey, thanks for listening. Join me next week. When I talked to doctor Dixon Shabandah, a psychiatrist in Zimbabwe who is on a mission to help people in his community access mental healthcare, there weren't nearly enough psychiatrists and therapists to meet the need, so Dixon turned to a rather unorthodox

group for help, Grandmother's. I kind of realized that there was something in having an older woman who has wisdom and experience, you know, reaching out to help a young mother who is struggling with postnatal depression, with anxiety disorder, and just reaching out and establishing that connection that makes that person feel comfortable, to make them feel that sense of belonging that I am in a place where I'm

being taken care of. That was really powerful. A Slight Change of Plans is created written an executive produce by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change Family includes Tyler Greene our senior producer, Jen Guera our senior editor, Then Holiday, our sound engineer, Emily Rosteck our producer, and Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Louise Scara wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of

Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries. So big thanks to everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee Tall Malat and Heather Fame and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week. Well, I have to just ask you what is your relationship with Selene Dion's My Heart Will Go On? You know, how do you feel about the song? Can

you even listen to it? You know? You know it because she she fair in love with this song so much that she was singing over and over, and sometimes I wanted to close my ears, like I need to be quiet.