¶ Intro
We need to learn what our needs are.
Everybody has needs in a relationship, and actually needs in a relationship are so understated.
Tys Gibson is a relationship coach, best selling author from the founder of Personal Development School.
The analogy I often give to people as somebody with a different attachment style than you. It's almost like you sit down to play a board game and you have the rules for Monopoly and I have the rules for Scrabble. It's going to cause like a lot of unnecessary misunderstandings. It's safe to express emotions, it's okay to be vulnerable,
to rely on other people and to trust them. They get this really healthy modeling, and as they grow older, they also get modeling for how to communicate and negotiate their needs and how to have healthy boundaries.
I'm Razzi da Vlukia and on my podcast A Really Good Cry, we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space for raw, unfolded conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together. Thank you so much for being here. I am so grateful to you. I have been binge reading your books and I am so grateful that you have done so much of the work for us so we can understand things so simply through your words.
And I just want to get straight into it.
So tell me how you started learning about attachment theory and what got you interested in it.
So I grew up in like a very chaotic household, for sure, and I was a very sensitive child. So I have a younger sister, and I think as a child that was parentified a lot. So I was kind of put in the middle of a lot of the chaos and the drama my parents went through, like a twenty year divorce that went to the Superior Court of Canada, just one of those things. And I think I grew up as like the sensitive person, kind of thinking like, why can't it be different? Why do people who love
each other? And I knew they really cared about each other and they were very loving, like my parents are very good hearted people, but they just really brought out really difficult sort of sides to one another. And so I think from a very young age, I was really interested in human behavior. I think it's difficult. I'm not recommending that people parentify their children and put them in the middle of things, but I think the silver lining for me was that I actually really love human behavior
and learning about people. And I think from a young age I was kind of immersed in this environment where I was, in a sense, being forced to learn about a lot of why people do the things that they do. And I became very curious at a young age, and so I internalized a lot, went through my own sort of struggles both personally and in relationships, and then did
¶ What is Attachment Theory?
a lot of healing work and was like, how can I go into my adult life feeling like relationships aren't scary and aren't so chaotic and so difficult. And a lot of the work and healing that I had to do with myself ended up being the things that actually brought me into this sort of realm of work later on. So a big part of my focus became, Okay, well how can I go into not just how we understand
our attachment styles, but how can we change them? Because I was a fearful, avoidant attachment style, which is a tricky one, and I was very hot and cold, and I think at that point it was like, well, I don't want to live like this forever and feel like relationships are difficult like this, and so doing that work with myself first and becoming securely attached and then allowed me to bring that out to other people as well.
And what was your first experience with attachment styles? And just we know what, before we do that, could you just give anybody, everybody that's listening an overview of what attachment theory is.
Yes, I feel like we're using the tab and feeling wait what is that?
Absolutely so attachment theory.
We can think of it in a simplified manner as being basically the subconscious set of rules you have for love. So if you grow up that yeah, and it's sort of like we all have this rule book. And the analogy I often give to people is somebody with a
different attachment style than you. It's almost like you sit down to play a board game and you have the rules for Monopoly and I have the rules for Scrabble, and it's going to cause like a lot of unnecessary friction and misunderstandings and miscommunications because we're like, what do you mean, We're supposed to be doing it this way.
And so that's really what our attachment style is. And it was originally the Body of Work was originally born from John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworths out of care University decades ago, and then a lot of that original research I learned in like first year psych at university. But it's sort of like it's really profound in a sense, but it talks about the four attachment styles, but it doesn't talk about how we can change our attachment style,
how we can become secure, how we can recondition. Basically, and we know we have neuroplasticity and so because of that, we can change our attachment style. So that's where our body of work was born from there. But the four major attachment styles out of John Bolby's work are number one, the securely attached child. Securely attached children obviously grow up as secure adults, and they grew up in a household where there's a lot of what we call approach oriented behaviors.
So basically there's a lot of when a child is in distress, crying, feeling sad, the parent will go towards them, and through those approach oriented behaviors, it actually conditions the child to feel like I'm worthy of love, It's safe to express emotions. My needs will get mad if I
express emotions. It's okay to be vulnerable to rely on other people and to trust them, and so they get this really healthy modeling, and as they grow, they also get modeling for how to communicate and negotiate their needs and how to have healthy boundaries. So they grow up to have that framework to become really secure adults because of that framework model to them as children. And then there's the three insecure attachment styles. One is the anxious preoccupied.
This is somebody that tends to have a lot of either real or perceived abandonment in childhood. So it can be that they either literally go through an abandonment where a parent is divorced and they kind of move out of the household and they're not around very much. Or it can also be a lot of very loving emotions and actions from caregivers, but maybe they're working all the time, so it's sort of like, yeah, so it's like love
is there, love is taken away. Love is there, Love is taken away, And that repetition and emotion fires and wires those neural pathways for a person to constantly fear abandonment and fear that the other shoe will drop, and so they become the clinging individuals. Sometimes in adult relationships because that's their way of trying to cope and maintain proximity.
And okay, so that was this team will right go through them and then then we're going to go through them in depth. But I feel like if they hear the terms, you'll be really useful to them when we're going back through it.
Absolutely.
So on the other end of the spectrum, there's the
dismissive avoidant. Dismissive avoidance usually grow up with the overarching theme being childhood emotional neglect, and sometimes even in mashment and so childhood emotional neglect causes a child when they're very young to go, something must be wrong with me that I can't get my needs met because we're literally wired for attunement, for connection, for emotional responding from our caregivers, and so a child internalizes it because they every child internalizes everything.
That's how the mind works when they're learning.
And so a child can't go, oh, my parents are emotionally unavailable, so instead they go, something must be wrong with me. And so they tend to be the ones that are afraid to even bond too much in terms of relationships, and they constantly keep people at bay and try to keep a distance because they don't want to.
Feel like that again as adults.
And so that's or dismissive avoidant. They tend to fear commitment as adults, they tend to sort of be a little slur to warm up, a little more stand offish. Yeah, and last, but not least, it's the fearful avoidant.
This is what I was.
Fearful avoidance grub usually in chaotic childhood, so it can be a lot of fighting in the home. It can be parentification, but it can also be more extreme things like having a cluster B personality disordered parent, somebody with borderline personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder, or it can also be that you have parents who maybe struggle with addiction.
And basically the overarching theme is like you have some really good moments with love and connection, some really nice ones, but some really scary ones or kind of horrific ones, and so you never know what you're going to get. And if you imagine, like an example of a parent who's an addict, let's say mom's an alcoholic. As an example,
¶ Identifying your core wounds
one day Mom comes home, she's had too much to drink. She's scary, she's confusing. Another day she's had too much drink. She's in a great mood. Another day she's so bering up and she's in a really bad mood. She's detoxing. Another day she's sober and she feels guilty about her behavior. So she's kind and it's like you just don't know what you're going to get at any point in time.
And so a child like that up in a household and then feels as an adult like they want love, but when it gets too close, they get scared, and so they're very hot and cold and pushion, pull, and it's sort of like.
Come here, come here. If somebody gets closer, like get back.
Yeah, And so they give a lot of mixed messages because a lot of that is like the internal feelings that they're caring and responding to.
So those are the four for major here.
That was really informative. And I feel like when I read through your book and I was reading through all these attachment styles, I could think of different people in my life who carry different qualities, and what it really made me think was, God, it helps me feel so much empathy towards the people in my life, not even just empathy but understanding of myself, understanding of other people,
but so much more compassion for it. And I think that these styles help you to connect not just to your partner, not just to your parents, to but every single person that you come into contact with. You can kind of start understanding their behavior and therefore have more of a compassionate nature. Where you're thinking, this all stems from like a that was either neglected or grew up in a really difficult environment, and those things are being carried with us.
So how does.
One go from you know, hearing this where you hear what the attachment styles are and being like, oh this is me or oh this is my partner, this is my mom.
What do we then do about it?
Like? How how does one How did you start to heal yourself and what would you know? You said you did a lot of healing work. What were the healing techniques that really helped you? And how do we move through these towards being a secure? Can everyone be a secure?
Yes?
Yes, everybody can be sec It does require work, Like I would say, the caveat is if somebody's not really willing to do the work, and that's where the sort of the glass ceiling arises.
But I did.
So.
I first started in client practice after doing a lot of my own work, and I saw over the course of about a decade, almost eighteen I went through almost eighteen thousand client slashs. And if people are willing to do the work, people become secure. If somebody came in and they were willing, but they dragged in their partner who was unwilling, that would be where like that that there's not much you can.
Do past that.
So my original background was actually I came out of school for psychology, went into specializing in hypnosis, and I really wanted to learn how we can really change our subconscious mind. So one of the things I learned in school was that your conscious mind cannot outwill or overpower your subconscious mind, which to me was like mind blowing because it was like, oh, that's why everybody every New Year's it's like I'm gonna quit eating chocolate and seven days.
Later they're back to the same thing.
Or we set all these goals but we don't follow through. Well, it's because we're not engaging the subconscious mind in the process of transformation. So I got into hypno therapy did like this year long certification and all of that, did a lot of like NLP, a lot of these things to really understand how the mind works, and then started doing client sessions with hypnosis and was like, kind of I thought the power dynamics were strange. I felt like it was like give the mani fish instead.
Of tea into fish.
And I was like, what, I'd rather spend time telling people how their subconscious works and how they can recondition it. Because when you look at hypnosis and you pair that with neuroplasticity research, there's like a science behind transformation. So there's a lot of tools we can use to change our subconscious mind, which is how the needle actually moves.
So what I found over about.
Ten years of working with people was that there's basically four major categories and two kind of minor ones that we have to focus on in order to become securely attached. The first is reprogramming our core wounds. So we all have core wounds, and they're basically like our relationship baggage. So if I grew up for example, for me, I grew up in an environment where there was a lot of chaos, and so I really had a hard time trusting because I was kind of like, if my parents
are betraying trust, like how will I trust anybody? And so you know that's an I am betrayed core wound. And each attachment style actually has very unique core wounds. Anxious attachments have more like I'll be abandoned, I'll be alone, excluded, disliked, rejected, dismissive avoidance are more like I'll be seen as defective or something's wrong with me because of that internalized shame wound. I'll be weak, if I'm vulnerable, it's unsafe to open up.
I'll be trapped, helpless, powerless. Fearful woids basically have both sides because they have that anxious end of winds, so a little more core wound reprogramming, but they also have this core wounded I'll be betrayed, I'm unworthy, and I am bad, like feeling like people will get them in trouble or punish them for no reason. So a lot of the first work I did just of my own accord, was doing a ton of core woundery programming, which is based on how we can sort of self hypnotize when awake.
It's not like really in a process of hypnosis at all. It's just a process of like firing and wiring neural pathways. We can always talk about like a tool or something later. There's some really easy takeaways that people could get started.
On immediately who are less.
So first we have to get all of those ideas out of our subconscious mind. Because if I'm going into trying to love somebody and I'm like, well, I'm going to be betrayed, I'm going to be a band, and I'm going to be trapped, and all these fears are there, then it makes it really difficult to let our guard down or to feel normal. So we have to recondition those ideas. We're not born with them, they get conditioned into us. We can recondition them of the same court.
And so I guess that first step what I'm hearing from you is identifying, like learning and learning yourself and identifying what is my mind thinking in that moment, like noticing it, because I think a lot of us go
¶ Reprogramming emotional triggers
on autopilot. If you've had it from such a young age. You know, I'm going into a room, whether it's with my partner or whether it's with my friends, and the first thing I'm thinking is, oh, if I act in this way, they're not going to like me. Like let's say that's let's say that's the initial thought that comes into my mind. But you become so used to having those thoughts that they don't feel abnormal, they feel so part of you. They feel like they are are your normality.
And so I think, yeah, the identifying part is so important when you actually start listening and hearing what is going through my mind as I'm going through the world, what is going through my mind as I'm interacting with my partner, with my close friends, with the people that I'm closest to, how am I reacting to things? And so okay, step one, identify exactly, and.
It's really identify and then do the reprogramming work. So we'll give a tool in a little bit too, but I'll sort of go through the few and then I can come back to a tool for actually how to recondition, but exactly to your point, like, we have to know what it is first, and so a great way that people can discover it is whenever we're triggered, So whenever we're feeling stressed or sad or emotional, if we can really anchor in the situation, So it's when my partner
didn't call me back, for example, what do I make it mean about me? And if we can ask ourselves that question, it's a really good way of retrieving the core wound. It's based in cognitive behavioral therapy, and so when we see that, we can go, oh, well, I'm making that mean that I'm going to be abandoned, yes, Or I'm making that mean I'm disliked or rejected, or I'm making that mean that you know, I'm with the
wrong person, I'm going to be trapped, you know. So we each have like really individual meaning, and when we can look at times we felt really emotional or triggered and ask ourselves, what do I make that mean about me? We'll see clearly what those core wounds tend to be. So that's sort of the first way to pull them up, and then we can do the reprogramming.
So what do I so identify and then what do I make what was it?
What would I make this mean about me?
What would I make this mean about me? I can say relate to that. The first thing that I thought of when you said that was, I remember when me and my husband first got married, he would have this habit of when he would come into the door, he would leave his shoes right by the door, and I would be in my mind, I would be thinking, what does he think I'm just going to pick up after him?
Is that why he's leaving it by the door.
He thinks that it's my responsibility to pick those shoes up and put them away. And it kept tearing away at me over and over again. And when I thought about what that meant for me, it was because I felt like I felt insecure about being at that time a housewife. Where I was where I was staying at home and he was working, and that was a shift that I had just made, and it was something that
I felt insecure about. And so constantly any actions he was taking, which he didn't mean it to be that, my interpretation was, Oh, so he's leaving that though, because he thinks I should be doing this.
And then I spoke to.
Him and he was like, no, I'm so happy doing it. I just you know, at that moment in time, it's not when I want to pick this up or when I want to do that. But I would have done it an hour later, or I would have done it in my own time. And so the interpretation that I had made for myself was so different to what his meaning actually.
Were exactly exactly, but it.
Was purely based on my insecurities or things that I felt maybe in the past, or having to look after someone, you know, whatever it was, it was definitely stemming from something far beyond just the shoes that were left in front of the door.
So that's so cool. It's such a good example.
So if you go a step further, it just tell me if either one of these resonate with you, I don't matter, I'm I am unimportant, or I am disrespected.
I think that I am unimportant definitely stems from even school times where I never felt like I was worth, Like I was never told or shown that I was worthy to even be in the classroom because I was always not getting the grades or always not being the person that was performing in the right way to get
attention or to get adoration in that way. And so the unimportant thing I think has always played has been a thread throughout what I'm doing, or like the feeling of being a little bit unworthy, and then you kind of translate it into other things totally.
Yeah, And so that's like what core wounds come from.
It.
They never come from like actual like that moment with your husband coming through the door. They're always pre existing, and then they get activated in those moments and then it's something where like the shoes on the floor, like, oh,
¶ How past emotional scars shape present reactions
it's your shoes on the floor, but it's you know, people are like, oh, it's not a big deal, but really it's not about what the objective experience is. It's the subjective stuff that we have inside of us that arises that feels so uncomfortable. Yeah, so we do a lot of the work. The first part is like learning exactly what our core wounds are. There's a list of like eighteen or twenty. I can actually send you a link if you want to put in the show notes or something.
Yeah, the listeners identify theirs.
But you can see those ones and then it's like okay, then we can plug them into the reprogramming, and then we can actually leave these things that were conditioned into our subconscious mind from pre existing experiences, which makes us way less likely to jump to those conclusions in the future or feel that distress.
It's so true.
I think about all the times where I've kind of jumped to conclusions or had very snappy responses to things, and I'm like, why did I there was such a tiny thing? Like, technically it's a tiny thing, but because you allow things to build up so much, it doesn't feel tiny at all, Like that one thing feels so huge because of either things I haven't worked through myself or things that I haven't worked through with other people. Yes, that has ended up leaving little scars exactly, God, no, please go.
Well, I'm just gonna say I always tell people like it's never because some people will do that, right, You're probably not doing that as much, but people will shame themselves for having reactions to things like oh, I can't believe I was snappy.
Over this little thing.
And it's because it's never about the external experience. It's always about what it triggers internally for us. And so it's also a reminder for us to be like gentle with ourselves. And then if we see ourselves doing that, it's never helpful to like shame ourselves or read ourself up or something. It's so important to get an adopt a state of curiosity and to be like, well, why did that affect me so much? What am I making
it mean about me? And then we see, oh I was making it mean I am unimportant or I am unworthy, and oh my gosh, there's this like trail of that in my experience, how it all makes sense?
Gosh, can you imagine how many well I'm sure you already know through the work you've done, but how many arguments are saved.
After people realize these.
Little things, Like seriously, I can just imagine the clarity of communication and like the clarity of understanding. Even if you figure out yourself as being secure, but then you end up noticing those traits in your partner helps you to also help them unwind and and you know, figure those parts out, like where is that coming from? Like how is that? How is what I said? What are
you translating it to be? You know, I remember I heard recently Gaba Mathe I love him too, and he was talking about how this was more to do with what other people think about you, But he was talking about how you can never control how someone perceives what you've said, because it's going through all these layers, all these filters of.
Their pain, of their trauma.
And so you can say the same thing to five different people and each person will have internalized it completely differently exactly. And there's this word in Sanskrit. It's called some scars, and some scars are tiny. They're described as tiny little footprints that are essentially left on you every single time you go through an experience. But what happens is sometimes they can get washed away when you end
up processing them. But otherwise, every single time that same thing happens, that the imprint gets deeper.
And deeper and deeper.
And so I always think about that when I go through life. I'm like, all these little impressions they refer to us, All these little impressions that are being made determine how we receive anything that we come into contact.
¶ Why do you keep dating the same type?
With exactly and will give. And it's so funny.
Because this is like how the subconscious works too, is exactly what you just described as some scars, which is every time we go through a negative thing that we can't properly emotionally in process or subconscious stores it so that it can protect us from it in the future.
Wow.
But then when we keep giving the same meaning, we're actually firing and wiring those neural pathways are getting stronger
and deeper. And now you think of your subconscious mind as like the lens you see the world through where it's almost like every time you have something that like or like almost like a windshield when you're driving your car and you get these like splats of mud on your windshield and they build up and become dirty and dirtier, and unless you're cleaning them out, it skews your vision.
Yes, that's a great analogy.
So with people, you know, I have a lot of friends who get into relationships and you know, you end up having these patterns when you end up seeking out the same thing over and over again. Is that linked to these attachment theories from a young age? And if you notice yourself getting into patterns and usually then we recognize the patterns usually when they negative, not when they're positive patons.
How would one?
And obviously these are the ways that you get out of it, But when do you know to stop, Like, how do you know to stop those patterns? How do you stop it from how do you differentiate it from who you just are as your personality versus something that is wrong with you or something that you have to adapt and.
Change because of how much it's causing us pain. So I feel like emotions like they're a beautiful feedback mechanism, Like they're always telling us when something is out of alignment. And sometimes what we do is we shame our emotions or suppress them. But they're always saying something to us. And when we can use them as an opportunity to go inward, we can go in and heal and do
that underlying work. And so what's really interesting is that our subconscious mind really wants to maintain its comfort zone. So it seeks comfort because it equates it to familiarity and thus safety. And so your subconscious at the end of the day is really survival wired. So even if we're going through decades of painful patterns and relationships, will attract the same type of people and invest in those personalities because we're like, it's familiar, and thus I'm still
likely to survive. And so what's really interesting is it for each of the attachment styles, we are generally most attracted to what represents the subconscious comforts wone we have in relationship to self.
So how we.
Get conditioned as children we will tend to internalize. So I always say, for example, like our internal dialogue is often our internalized dialogue from childhood, Like how we were spoken to will often speak to ourselves. And so let's say, for example, you would really critical parents, then you become really critical of self, and then you see that you're
¶ Heal yourself first
attracted to really critical people because they mirror back to you how you treat yourself, and thus it feels safe and familiar. Wow. And so you'll often see like anxious attachment styles. They are very dismissive of themselves and their own feelings because they're busy people pleasing, so they're more attracted to emotionally unavailable people.
A lot of the time, dismissive A.
Winds are very preoccupied with their own time to themselves, and often the attracted to people who are also.
Preoccupied with the amount of time.
So we end up attracting what's our mirror, not into like what we're looking for, but into who we are to self. And that's why it's so important to become securely attached to self first, so we're more likely to be investing in people who are also going to be secure and show up in safe and healthy ways.
See that puts a whole different meaning to.
Love yourself first, and then you'll find the person that's gonna love you best Like that to me. You know, everyone's like, you know, you have to feel really secure by yourself first before you get into a relationship. But I think the way you just described it of it being this reflection, you know, what you end up seeking out is a reflection of how you treat yourself. Then it makes sense, right then you actually want to be in a place rather than someone coming in and trying
to fix these broken pieces of you. You then realize, oh my god, I could deserve so much more, Like I could attract so much more in my life, and I there's a possibility that I deserve way more. But I need to believe I deserve more, and I need to believe that things in my own self can be better before I can attract better exactly.
And that goes back to like these major things. So it's really interesting. So we talked about like that. You know, there's a four major things. Yeah, so the first one is core wounds, right, and we have to I have
to go through the other ones. But the core wounds, like if I'm telling myself all day I'm not good enough or I'm unworthy, I never So I saw a lot of clients within that ten year period or so when I was running my practice who came out of also narcissistic relationships and not like how people throw away through around the term, but like actual, you know, narcissistic personality disorder. And it's so interesting because this was like
the most obvious example to me. And this is to be very clear, I'm not victim blaming at all, and I'll speak to that in a moment, but but what I would see is that every person who ended up in a relationship with a narcissist, they first were very self critical, They violated their own boundaries to please people all the time. They would manipulate themselves into like becoming what people wanted from them to people please them, and they were often in a position where they were not
empathizing with their own feelings. They were like judging themselves for feelings. So of course somebody comes along who's not going to be very nice to you. They're going to be like cruel or mean and how they talk to you, They're going to manipulate your life, they're going to violate your boundaries, they're not going to empathize with you, like
all these characteristics of a narcissist. And what happens is the conscious mind is responsible for three to five percent of our beliefs, thoughts, emotions, and actions, and subconscious and unconscious collectively are ninety five to ninety seven percent. And every client that I would see go through this would come into my practice and they would say, I knew better. It was almost like logically, which is our conscious mind,
I knew that something was not right. I knew that this person wasn't being healthy, but it was like I couldn't stop myself from going and investing in this relationship.
The autopilot is exactly almost like this dormant autopilot thing
¶ Learn what your needs are in a relationship
where it's almost like we're asleep, like it's it's the subconscious. To me, it feels like unless you start tuning into it, it becomes this part of you that is asleep on basically just following patterns that you've already followed before without trying to reji like you have to realign it. But otherwise, living through your subconscious means I'm going to collect all
these things that happen. We're going to store it, like you said, and then we're going to live in that same pattern over and over again until you wake up and until you wake me up and start telling me different.
Exactly exactly, and start doing that reconditioning work, and so it's like this whole like landscape of what's happening. So that first part is people learning to reprogram their core wounds, because as long as I have core wounds, like for me,
it's so interesting. I saw my parents go through this big sort of you know, confused dynamic, and I had this huge betrayal core wound, and then I was in relationships as a young person with people who would betray me, and it was like, oh my gosh, this is my subconscious comfort zone and as soon as I recondition that that would change. Right, So we tend to like actually not just have these core ones, but then we invest
in people who are more likely to activate them. So that's the first The second part is we need to learn what our needs are. Everybody has needs in a relationship, and actually needs in a relationship are so understated. So
there's the beautiful work of doctor Gary Chapman. He talks about the five love languages, and I would actually say, much more important than the love languages are our needs because I can I have a big quality time love language, but I have a big need for emotional connection, and if I spend quality time watching Netflix with somebody, it's not the same as having like a deep conversation and
feeling like that's like a really connecting thing. So our needs are absolutely huge, and they're how we actually give and receive love in a relationship. And when needs are not being met, and not to fear amonger people listening to this, but when needs are not met, that is the context for usually how infidelity happens long term and relationships, because the subconscious mind is a needs meaning machine, and
¶ Communicate your needs vulnerability and transparently
so what will happen is we won't get our needs met, let's say in a twenty year marriage, and then we'll start to resent, and then somebody comes along who does
meet those needs. They do make you feel seen or heard or significant, and the subconscious mind will go through these enormous feelings of infatuation, which obviously this is usually with the exception of people who are like sex addicts or things like that, the vast majority of infidelity happens in these very drawn out times where needs are not being that and then the person justifies it and strays.
And so every person has needs. We need to learn our own needs and how to meet our needs ourselves first so that our subconscious mind is ready to receive them from other people and we're primed. And then the third piece becomes we need to learn to communicate our needs vulnerably and transparently and so hard.
Yeah, I guess like, okay, we've done on this week. And then you have to learn how to ask for what you need, which I think even more so for women than I think for anybody else. We're just so used to being the people were being in a position of being givers and being people who are.
Okay, care take.
It's part of our nature to be that way, and so to then be like, this is what I need, it feels like such a big step and a very vulnerable moment to even do that.
So big so as a fearful avoidant as well. In the past, I remember the first time I communicated in need and it was to my now husband, and we've been together for like ten years, but we were early on into dating, and I had done a lot of this work on myself first, but I hadn't really done
it in a relationship. I took this kind of time out from dating, like this sacred kind of pause, to like do a lot of inner work because I knew that I needed it, and and it's funnily enough, he was like the first person actually dated after.
Coming out of that and then we got married.
But he like, I remember one time I felt really insecure about something and it was like this misunderstanding that was happening, and we were only a few months into dating, and I remember knowing, if I don't say right now that I just need like clarity and reassurance that I'm going to store it and I'm just going to kind of push him away.
And I remember like where I was, what I was wearing. It was such a good moment because.
It was so scary, but I was like, hey, you know, I'm feeling like a little bit unsure about this situation that's happening, and I need like clarity and reassurance to feel okay. Otherwise I know it's just gonna I'm gonna get in my head and I don't want it to
come out in a different way in the relationship. And he like was so sweet about it and so like and it was the first time met ever communicated, and it was like positively reinforced like that, and it was like, oh, this is what it's supposed to feel like and it's so scary when we haven't done that before. And to your point, like women a lot of the times too, are like care takers and they're not supposed to like have have needs or take up too much space. But
¶ Have healthy boundaries
I think that without that, relationships just often become dysfunctional. And the more we have unmet needs and there's a lack of communication that goes in direct correlation with how much resentment boils in the relationship, and so that's the big thing. So so we do the core wounds, we identify and reprogram core wounds. We learn our needs and we learn to meet them to with self. So if I need encouragement, I better be more validated of self.
If I need certainty, how can I create my own certainty with more boundaries in my life or things like that. And there's like each attachment style we can go through them afterwards too, but each attachment set actually has very unique needs that tend to be there, so we can learn from that what they are, and then we learn to meet them with self, and then we learn to
communicate them with others. And then the last kind of pieces is we have to develop healthy boundaries, and then we have to do a little emotional regulation just through
¶ Why do you find secure people boring?
things that get us into parasympathetic nervous system mode, meditation, breath work, habits, just like little things that will help us reregulate if we come from a history of relationship trauma, and then in doing that.
That will shift our behaviors.
So really it's like if you can learn your coremones and reprogram them, learn your needs, express your needs to other people, emotionally regulate, and have good boundaries. It sounds like five like things that take a lot of time, but really it's like ninety days for people to really
do the reprogramming. Do like a little breathwork exercise in the morning, you're regulating your nervous system, and then go into your life and learn to understand your needs and communicate them to peace and set your boundaries and really like just conditioning that for ninety days, we'll see people really move into being securely attached.
Yeah, because you know, what you're just saying reminds me of the friends I was talking about, where if they're used to being in you know, similar relationships where it's actually quite painful. The problem is even when a man comes along that is completely different and possibly a secure man.
They find it disturbing and they can't even appreciate the man who is secure, communicating, stable, And so it's almost like you lose out on these opportunities to have because they're always thinking, Oh, I just need to find that guy, that guy that makes me feel secure, the guy that makes me feel like it's all going to be okay. But the problem is you find that and then it's boring. And you find that, and then it's suddenly like, oh, but what else do I do?
Now?
This is I'm just bored and I don't know how to react to this. And so it's almost an unfair position that you're putting the other person in because you have and you're not ready to receive that yet. And so what you were talking about it just kind of makes it. It's almost like the work that has to be done before an exam, right, you have to do the work that it takes to accept the goodness that comes into your life if you've been in a position that's used to not receiving that exactly.
And like, it's so hilarious that you said this because I just recorded a YouTube video. It hasn't come out yet, And it's about how if you're not secure, you'll often find secure people boring. And and because in our so we do these like programs in the personal development school and people all the time. So we'll do like these daily webinars and people will come in and type stuff
and all the time. Like I was like, I have to make a video about this and address it because so often people will literally be in there and they'll be like, hey, I'm like seeing the secure person, but I don't know, like I feel like it's kind of boring.
All the time, like just non stop. And so you nailed it.
And it's because if your subconscious comfort zone and I actually had that experience firsthand when I was younger and dating when I was not securely attached, and because my subconscious comfort zone was chaos, I was attracted to chaos, and anybody who's gonna make me feel calm instead of chaotic, I would reject because it was not familiar.
And even though it's.
Like totally backwards, I would perceive that as not safe because.
I'm not used to it. And so it's like we want.
To go back to what's familiar, but sometimes that's not the actual thing. That helps benefit us.
Yeah, and they're not safe is because you're not used to having to have someone that doesn't respond in ups and downs. And I think that's that's what it is.
¶ The six stages of relationships
It's like the adrenaline rush, right. I think about it, even with friends who go on tour and they're on you know, on stages, or they used to people screaming their name and they're so used to this high high that can't be experienced anywhere else, and so everything else feels so dull and so boring. And in the same way, it's like if you're used to this pining of oh my gosh, when is he gonna talk to me again?
Or oh my goodness, he's so angry with me right now, but eventually you know it's gonna get better, and then it's gonna get worse, and then it's gonna get better, and then it's gonna get worse. It's this, You're on a roller coaster with adrenaline over and over again, and so when there's no adrenaline rush in that way, you start to think this is really boring.
Yeah, exactly.
And something else that I found to be so like useful and honestly is kind of is I don't want to say like sad, but it's so important to recognize this is that every relationship as well, it.
Has six stages.
So this was originally based off the work of doctor Susan Johnson, but I sort of adapted over the years. The first stage is the dating stage. It's like our betting stage. We're supposed to see if somebody is a good fit. Then we go into the honeymoon stage, which is like the rose colored glasses that like. The dating stage usually lasts zero to six months, honeymoon stage another year or so, sometimes up to a year and a half.
Then we go into the power struggle stage. I can't tell you how many times I would have clients come in when I was running my practice and they would be like they would be like, I married my wife at a year. We moved kind of quickly, and then as soon as we got married, she turned into a monster. Like I would hear a story after a story like this, and it was like, no, no, no, you just it wasn't like she was trying to bait you to get
married and then become someone else. It's just that you're in the power struggle stage now, and if we make it out of the power struggle stage, we go into the security, commitment and bliss stages. But and the bliss stage is like the honeymoon stage, but you deeply know somebody, you really let them in, you know their fears and flaws, and you've accepted each other's and there's like a lot more communication and openness. And that's where we're trying to
¶ Are you hooked on the drama or the person?
get to. But most people who are insecurely attached, they go dating stage, honeymoon stage, power struggle stage, break up,
start again. Oh so they also don't realize that, like love isn't supposed to be the high of the honeymoon stage or the low of the power struggle and they keep trying to like keep the highs and the lows alive, because what you'll find is, if you make it out of the power struggle stage, love is less about like the highs and lows of almost like that pleasure seeking, and more about this really deep fulfillment and that only
happens when we build those deeper roots. And when people don't realize that that's how it works, and they don't know their attachment style, it's like we go in blind to love and relationships and it keeps us so easily stuck with the wrong expectations or rules for love.
One of my best friends is exactly like this, and she'll know when she's listening to this the butec she.
In my mind.
But that's our conversation over and over again. She keeps saying, Oh, you know, I wanted to feel like it felt when I was really when I was younger and dating in relationships, Like when I'm meeting people, it doesn't feel that exciting anymore.
And it doesn't. And I was like, but all those people you broke up with, so there was a reason that that didn't work out.
But she's constantly seeking this, like she's like, what about the butterflies and the excitement. I was like, you still feel that, but it just feels it's a different type, Like the excitement is different, but for a good in a good way. Yes, the butterflies are there, but it's
not as intense. And I think it's the intensity that people are so used to that intensity of emotion, and it's almost like you just want to feel something, even if it's even if it's a bad feeling, you just want to make sure you're feeling.
Yep, totally.
And we get to we get addicted to the neural chemistry of our court wounds. When they're up, we get not just cortisol but also dopamine. And it's actually very similar neurochemically to what people get addicted to when they're gambling.
And so yeah, and like the intermittent.
So much sense.
Yeah, yeah, so it's there for that reason.
But I would say, and I'm curious, like you probably noticed this, but I would say, you know, we can sort of share about this as people, probably for anybody who hasn't had this experience, but I would see this with tons of people, both in my practice, through our programs and people.
It's like pleasure.
Seeking can only go like this high and this low, but fulfillment can outgrow the peaks of pleasure, like when you have such deep fulfillment and really deep connection and peace and appreciation and gratitude like all of those things, they grow slower, like you know, but over time, the depth of fulfillment won't like the pleasure of like the roller coaster doesn't hold a candle to how fulfilled you feel.
But people, because they're not getting the opportunity to go through the stages and get to that point, have no reference or contacts, and so they keep seeking out those highs and lows.
Yeah, I always just think, why should the person that I'm spending my life with make me feel the same way I feel when I'm in the most anxious stages of my life, like the things that scam me the most. If you're feeling the same way with your partner as you do doing the things that scare you the most on a daily basis, that can't like.
That doesn't make sense.
And I think about it all the time, like, oh if I if like I the way that it should be is my nervous system feels soothed when I'm with my person, like my I feel at ease and calm. But again, it's what you're saying, it's when that's not your normality. It feels like being in anxiety feels so much better for you than being in a state of calm and.
Ease, exactly.
Yeah, there's a lot of people who who I work with in the school and they come in and they say, Hey,
¶ The difference between sacrifice and compromise
I've become securely attached and I'm dating somebody now, and I can't tell the difference if I'm if I don't like them, or if attachment style is just not activated.
And I'm like, you're gonna know if you don't like somebody, and you'll still have the butterflies, like you' still have those good feelings and like a little bit of nerves if you're interested in somebody, in that excitement, but it won't There's something called like your attachment style being at debated, which is when your wounds are on, and a lot of people actually misperceive when they're not securely attached that oh, my wounds are activated, I'm feeling really anxious or I'm
feeling really avoidant or stress, and that must mean I like this person, And it's like, no, no, no, there's a difference between infatuation and a good, healthy, rooted way versus your attachment style being in that chaotic space.
Yeah, and when I was reading your book, you talked about in anxious anxious attachment, you were talking about the difference between sacrifice and compromise. I would love for you to go into that a little bit because I found that really interesting.
Yes, it's a really important concept for people who are either anxiously attached or even just like leaning anxious, like fearful, wouldn't have that anxious side as well, so generally what happens is we often tend to go into a space of thinking, Okay, I'm going to do what I think you would want me to do.
I'm not going to communicate about it. I'm going to try to mind read you.
And a lot of times, like the deeper level of this is actually someone called covert contracts, where we basically think I'm going to kind of buy my future favors for you through doing a bunch of things now, and we track it and we're like, I'm gonna do these five things, so when I need to ask you for this thing next week, you're going to owe me. And this is like often behavior we learn when we grow up in a household where we're taught we have to people please or we can't really be ourselves or we
can't communicate about our needs or get them met. And so that's sacrificing, that's going against ourselves to please others, and it will always end in resentment. Compromise is we learn to communicate our needs openly as a couple or as a unit. Even like let's say you and I are living together, we're super close friends, Like even in that kind of relationship, it can be with friendships, family relationships.
We want to be fully transparent and be able to say, hey, here's what I am available for and these are my needs and what are yours, And compromise means we actually both honestly put our cards on the table and then we work through define common ground. And what that does is it prevents her from being resentment and also both
people feel seen and hurt. Like when we actually get into relationships where we share our needs with somebody and they hear us out and they meet them and vice versa, and we know that we can talk those things through. There's such a deep sense of fulfillment and safety in that. And so compromise means we can actually be honest and authentic and truthful with the people closest to us. And when we do make those compromises, we take ourselves into
consideration in the process. So I have been given an analogy for people too who are newer to this concept, where let's say my neighbor says tays, I want you to come over on Friday, and let's say it's Thursday evening, and they're like, I need you to help me move. I'm moving, I'm packing all my stuff. Can you come over at six pm and help me till two in the morning. You know, let's say I love my neighbor and I really want to help them because I really
care about them. I'm not going to sit there and go, okay, two in the morning if that's not something that you know,
¶ Being in a relationship with a dismissive avoidant person
if I have a busy Saturday the next day, or if that's something we're at the end of a busy week, I'm not available for that. So what I would do is I would take myself into consideration and think and feel into myself and be like, well, what am I available for? Yeah, and maybe I say, you know what, I can't come that late, but I can come at six o'clock till eight o'clock or six until ten, or I'll come at six until eight o'clock and I'll cook
you some dinner and bring it over too. And so that's also part of the construct of making compromises is we don't lose our frame of reference being attuned to ourselves when we make those decisions. And so because we do that, we never feel resentful because we're actually acting in relationships in an authentic way based on our trips.
And when I was reading through your book, anyone listening to you now. When I first started dating my husband, he was definitely a secure and I think I was a dismissive avoidant, and it was It's been such an interesting journey because he's I mean, he's always held space to help me grow and like all the things that you were saying, I'm like, gosh, you really did do that. Like he's been secure since I think since we started dating,
and he's remained that way throughout our relationship. But he's also the type of person who's kept who's kept this space open for me to have my journey to grow through that. And that makes such a difference because I imagine it can be very frustrating for someone who is as secure and having someone who is constantly battling certain things and battling against him when he's not fighting against me,
do you know what I mean? Like I he's always he's always there to hold the space, and I'm fighting him, but against things that I've had from my.
Past, not him.
So he's like, I'll carry your bags, and I'm like, why should you carry my bag?
I can carry my own bag.
And he's doing out of love, not because he thinks I can't look after myself. But I have a wound that feels like, oh, people think I can't look after myself, that I'm that I'm all over the place and I'm going to forget things, and so no, you can't hold my bags. I can look I can hold my own bags. And so we've gone through our and slowly as I was reading through book, I was like, gosh, I really did do those things when we started dating where I would be so I'll be fighting a cause, but the
cause wasn't him. It was it was me trying to fight something of other people in my past, so other things that I'd been through, but it was all coming out through the way he was treating me in such a sweet way, and I was like, no, you're trying to be loving. No, I don't want it. I totally understand.
So my husband, when I met my husband was dismissive avoidant as well, and so I like very much understand him, and he's been amazing dismissible avoidance. Like if they show
¶ Enmeshment
up and they like do the work and are mindful, and like they're so sweet because they're like so empathetic and they're very caring, and it takes them a little bit to feel safe, being vulnerable enough to express it. But on the inside that's really a part of who they are. And so what's so beautiful about their journey to being secure? And I saw this so much in my husband is like as you sort of peel back the layers and as he felt safer and safer to like kind of drop his guard and like let me in,
it's like this very like beautiful soul. Yeah, And so it's so cool to see that journey too, And it's beautiful that you've been through that.
Y definite.
I think I am still still going through it, but I definitely have improved. Another part that you spoke about was the concept of ameshment, and you know, being from Indian culture, it's something which is quite normal in our culture to constantly put what your ideas and constructs are of what your child is and what you want them to be based on your own fears or own insecret.
You know, my parents came as immigrants to.
The UK, and so a lot of what their traumas had that they'd gone through was so much with financial security, making sure you get the grades, making sure you know you have stability in your life because they lacked so much stability growing up, and so it all made.
Sense to me.
But I could see now looking back how a lot of the emphasis and what they put emphasis on also kind of I then carry with me through my life. But their intentions were so sweet because of what they'd been through. But at the same time, it put a lot of pressure on me in areas which I wasn't thriving at and therefore felt like a lot of my value was based on those things, and when I couldn't perform it those things, if felt like it took away
my value, if that made sense. And so if my parents are listening, I love you and you did the best thing, and like the incredible parents, But traumas.
Just get passed on in that way. And so.
The ameshment, when I read it, I was like, wow, we have to learn. Even reading it as someone who eventually wants to be a parent, I was thinking it's so easy. I was, you know, I want my child to do this, and I want him to be like this or her to be like this, and then you're constantly building these constructs for them that they haven't signed up for yet.
Yes, exactly, could you explain ameshment?
For anybody who doesn't know, and how that can affect someone's attachment style and going through their life.
Yes, it's such an important topic.
I love that you shared that too, because it's like, so I think it's so nice for people and they listen to hear these like real life examples and to your point, like when people are conditioned to have an insecure attachment style, parents either already have that attachment style themselves and so it's just being passed along because there are rules subconsciously about love or what we passed down, or it's people who think that they're doing the best
thing their child infinitely, like I can't tell them how you tell you how many times I would see clients who were parents who would be like, oh my gosh, I've learned about this attachment style stuff. I realized I was so tough on my children. But my relationship to why I was tough on my children was that I thought I was preparing them the beast that I could for the world exactly, And so it's never like anybody's fault.
It's just a process of recognition and awareness and how we can do that in our work to heal what's necessary.
So my mom would always whenever we talk about therapy or things that we've been through in childhood, and you know, I loved my childhood growing up.
My parents were phenomenal.
But whenever we talk about little things that we think have affected us, she's like, does that mean I wasn't a good mom?
I was like, it's not that at all.
You know, I can imagine why that must hurt parents so much as well, to know that they've created, you know, ripple effects in their children or anything that's been traumatic in their child. But it's also not a reflection of being a bad parent. Like it's you're not a bad parent because you went through trauma that you've passed on to a child, Like that doesn't make you a bad
parent in any way. It just makes you human and like not a superhero that has healed and done everything that you you know, it's it's so unrealistic to not carry certain things with you through So for any parent this is thing too. It's like, just because good child has carried anything with them through through you doesn't make you a bad parent.
Exact yeah, exactly.
And it's so common to have these different attachment challenges, Like it's it's not this and it's also not like a diagnosis like you're stuck with it forever. It's a set of patterns that we have in relationships. So yeah, absolutely, But to answer your question about enmashment, so basically, en meashment is that we will emotionally take on others emotions as if they're ours, and oftentimes we'll follow through with behavior more focused from the outside end rather than the
inside out. And this can be common in codependent families. This can be common culturally, absolutely, and some cultures more than others. And this basically teaches us that, like, we are responsible for everybody around us and how they feel. And there's there's something called directed meashment or indirect so directed mesh will often be that enmeshment is taught like, let's say you have a brother or a sister and
they're going through a hard time. You better skip your soccer game to go be there for your brother because and so you know, there can actually be this like teaching of that. Or you shouldn't go out on Friday with your friends as a teenager because your sibling needs you, And so that's very direct where it's taught, and even
negatively reinforced if you're not operating that way. And then there's indirect in meshment, which often happens when we have a child who's in a home where they can't understand what their parents are going through. But it's a very hard time. So I can share a story of a client once and I won't say his name, we'll call him see yes, And he had a single mom and she was extremely depressed, and so he grew up in a family where he would always see her like sleeping.
He always knew something was off and she wasn't okay, and so he would kind of like do extra cooking or cleaning around the house or take a lot on And basically she wasn't like trying to make him take on her emotions, but because he could see her in distress constantly, he would internalize that and worry like, if
¶ Can you be a mix of attachment styles?
she's not okay, how am I going to be okay? Because his children, we know that we're dependent on our parents to survive, and so there's this dynamic foster where we can become really afraid if somebody's not okay around us. And so then as adults, we tend to if we come from and mashed backgrounds really take on the feelings of others very quickly, and sometimes that can cause us to like constantly try to get close to them and
fix them. Or sometimes we can kind of go through burnout really easily because we're taking so much on, which instead we cope with by kind of pushing away and keeping a distance so that we can just maintain attunement to self and how we actually feel as a means to regulate.
Wow, intense, but amazing. Can you be a mix of two? Can you be?
I'm assuming when you're secure, you can only be secure, But what about the other three? Can you kind of be a mix of all three of them?
Yes, So you can actually like have what we call a primary and secondary attachment style. It's basically that you'll learn different patterns, so you're usually rooted in one. So you can be secure with like anxious edges, like a little bit of anxious, do you know if that comes up, but it's not dominantly how you're going to show up. You'll still communicate your needs, you have a little less
core wounds things like that. You can also be fearful avoidant leaning more anxious, or fear of avoidant leaning more dismissive or dismissive with a little bit of fearful avoidance secondary. So you've got like a little bit of hot and cold or anxious leaning a little fearful avoidant. But what we don't see is a jump from one to the other. So you won't generally see a dismissive avoidant person who's
then you know, anxious as their secondary. And one of the big differences I think that's important to note is it's it's based on how you behave.
So I was gonna ask, like, what are these symptoms?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So dismissive avoidance sometimes will say to me like, oh, but I feel anxious. Sometimes, like if I ask someone out and I'm waiting to hear back from them, I still feel anxious. And it's like, well, dismissive avoidance aren't robots, but you're you're still going to feel human feelings. But generally what you'll see is when dismissed the winds feel a little anxious, they'll tend to deactivate, they'll tend to try to minimize their need for attachment as.
A means of self soothing.
So they'll be like, well, if it doesn't work, it doesn't really matter, or maybe they weren't anyway.
Do you say that's the dismissing yes, yes, yeah, so you can.
Still feel anxious, but your way of coping with that anxiety will be to try it down exactly.
So that's how you feel, say, want to talk about it, I don't want to. I don't want to hear about it. No, I don't want to discuss what's making me anxious.
Right now, because it'll make me more anxious.
Exactly exactly.
I am. I can be your your what's the word the figure that you can show as a dismissive.
I know what you meant, the mascot.
They gotta be the mascot, Yeah, for sure.
¶ When anxious meets avoidant
And so that's that's the dismissed avoidant. And then you'll see anxious attachment styles. When they feel anxious, they keep trying to get closer to people, so they'll do the exact opposite. And in fact, if you take an anxious and a dismissive together, it's yeah, it can be so hard because if there's a conflict or an argument, that is what needs usually some time and space to process what they're feeling, to kind of cool off, and then
they'll come back to it. But anxious attachments, they they're terrified of time and space, so they're like, no, we need to talk about right now, and then the dismissive is often like, no, I'm not ready to talk about it right now, and then of course we have like all of the unnecessary chaos that ensues until people find the happy medium through compromising, when they know their attachment style and they know how to address these things.
Because I imagine, like if you're an anxious attachment person and you're constantly wanting to communicate, but then if you have a dismissive avoidant and they're shutting you down, would the anxious attachment person end up kind of changing their behaviors and how they communicate and almost become a dismissive avoidant as well because they're not given the space to express.
Does that make sense?
It's such a great question.
It's very insightful because what you're saying and what you're getting at too, is like neuroplasticity, Like yeah, basically, if we get around space through repetition and emotion, it happens over and over again, and so yes, in theory, that will happen whoever we're connected to the most, but generally because that sparked from big core wounds, often the core wounds and how they're feeling in that situation instead is
what reinforces those feelings. So often what you'll generally see is that they'll just go through a really big power struggle intil the relationship dissolves because the anxious attachment will keep needing to talk in the moment and then dispissa it will be like, oh my goodness, like give me a second, and then they'll go into one room and then the anxious follows them, and then you know, you'll usually see this whole thing unfold or I find.
You get shut down, like if you get shut down lots of times, and then eventually you're like, okay, fine, I'm gonna stay quiet. I'm just gonna stay quiet. And then you stay quiet, you stay quiet, you stay quiet. Eventually just blow up and say you're like, actually, I wasn't I wasn't actually trying to avoid it. I was just trying to keep it in exactly, and then you have anxious explosion, yes exactly.
And so generally you'll see it like people will try to not have it go that way, but often that will be the output, and then it'll just be like, you know, I would see couples come into our programs and it would just be like they're just arguing all the time, or they're just like back and forth at
each other's throats with that. But then it's like, okay, well, if you reprogram your core wounds, you're not so afraid of abandonment or you feel safer to be vulnerable if you're the more avoidant person, and so then like, okay, now we're not so triggered when those things happen. And then when you learn to communicate your needs and talk about boundaries, it's like, oh, it's totally fine. And generally
¶ What are your non-negotiables?
what you'll see people say is the output between like a dismissive, avoidant anxious, preoccupied is you'll usually see that they learn for the dismissi avoidance to say, hey, I don't know what i'm feeling just yet. I need a moment to process, but I'm going to take twenty minutes and then I'll come back and talk it out with you, and I will be here, and so they can take their space, but they're communicating that they're not abandoning them, that they'll come.
Back that's nice.
And then the anxious preoccupied knows okay, like they just need to figure out what they're feeling, and they're gonna come back to me, and then they can hold that space for longer. And then as they're reprogramming their wounds and those triggers aren't so strong, eventually you just see them have a really adaptive, healthy coping mechanisms and relationcation.
Yes everything, isn't it huge? Okay?
What would you say a good few, maybe like three questions that somebody should be asking themselves before they get into a relationship.
Ooh, I like this question.
I would say. The first question is what are my non negotiables? Because this is something that although that should seem like such an obvious thing. I cannot tell you how many times I would see people who would come to me and be like, hey, I've been with my partner for five years. They said that they never were going to have children. I wanted children. We both thought each other would change, and now here we are, and so like, we need to know our non negotiables and
that can be you know. I know for me, if I ever had to start dating again, I would say, somebody has to be willing to resolve conflict in a relationship, like you know, that would be a non negotiable somebody willing to talk things out, or you know, if somebody grew up with I had a client once whose mother passed away from lung cancer. Her non negotiable was, I
will never date someone who smokes. So like, non negotiables are different for each person, but knowing her non negotiables just really helps us avoid really big errors in relationships. So what are the things that you know? And what a non negotiable is is what are the things that if somebody exhibited these behaviors or showed up this way in a relationship, you staying in that relationship would be a betrayal to self.
Okay, Yeah, Because I was gonna say sometimes no negotiable. I was going to ask you, how you know where the non negotiables are valid?
Yeah?
You know, I mean, like, how do you know whether your non negotiables are fair and valid to the other person or is it really just about you?
Yeah? Great question, And I would say that it's exactly that.
It's like the moment I would stay in relationship with somebody who did those things, I would be betraying myself. And I would feel like, wow, this is me going against my truth.
And so these are non negotiables more to do with personality and behavior rather than non negotiables to do with externals like finances or attributes like physical attributes, or can they be the non negotiables.
¶ What are your standards or needs?
That's a great question. Those can be the non negotiables. Like you know, I've seen people who came from a family upbringing where their parents divorce and they lost everything. They're non negotiable. It's like I'm not going to get with a partner who has more than a x amount of money in debt, or I'm not going to marry the person if that person can't manage their money or you know. So there can definitely be those things. Physical attributes, I would say less so, but it can still technically
be there. But I would say those are more like our preferences than non negotiables. But sometimes the negotiables can be literally like around money or things like that. Usually it's if there's this relationship to like safety that a person.
There's a deep a meaning behind it, like it's not the finance, it's what it represents for them exactly. Yeah, Okay, so number one is what are your non negotiables, Yes, well, any other questions.
Number two, what are my standards or needs? Okay, we can kind of use them interchangeably in this context. So just like the things that I'm actually looking for from a relationship. And the reason this is really important is because most people go into dating on autopilot, and when they don't know their standards, they're working from their autopilot framework, which is usually their pre existing core wounds. Often they're
deeply on met needs from childhood. They're expecting people to kind of meet without like being able to articulate them.
And we have to spend.
Our dating stage of relationships vetting, Like if we don't do this, we're not dating intentionally, and then you know, somebody may be in a period where they don't want to date intentionally, they just want to like date people and see what they learn. But like, we ideally want to be clear about what we're looking for, and ideally the dating stage is best done if I know what
¶ How do you actually feel when you're around someone?
I'm needing, the other person knows what they're needing, and we're able to vet during the dating stage by asking like one question per date to get to the bottom of those things. So if I knew that, Like, a really important thing for me is somebody who's also interested in personal growth. For example, I might on a date say, hey, you know I love personal growth. I'm reading these kinds of books. Do you like this stuff?
You know?
And so we would just ask the question.
I think sometimes people hear the standards and needs and they're like, I'm going to sit down with my paper and I'm going to ask seventy four questions on day one, and it's like, no, it's going to be like a job interview. But knowing what we're actually looking for is extremely important. And then I would say, number three, how do I actually feel when I'm around this person?
Because we do a lot of.
The you know, oh, I I'm you know, this person's dismissing me and they're they're you know, not looking out for me, and that's my comfort zone for how I treat myself. So I want to dive in their head first and then wait. But if that's triggering you, that's either for you to work out and your triggers, or for you to communicate about and see if the needle moves, or probably both. And so just being mindful of like
what our actual experiences and our emotions. I can't tell you how many times I would see people never giving up on their ex and then I'd be like, well, how did this person actually make you feel the entire time you're with them? And they'd be like, oh, like really bad, and I'd be like, well, why are you
chasing them right now? And so just depending on like if it's just an attachment style clash, or if it's somebody maybe somebody totally different who has like narcissistic personality disorder or just isn't healthy, Like we have to be able to attune to ourselves and notice how we actually you feel in that person's company.
There's are great questions to ask yourself. I loved what you said in the second one about intentionally dating because I feel like I can't remember where I heard this. But it's like, you have to do the work at some point. So you could have fun for a year, for two years dating, but then you get married and the work starts because then you start noticing, and so
the work has to be done. You can choose when it happens, and so either you end up having to do extra work once you're married and start thinking that you know someone, but you haven't done the depth of the work to figure that out, or slowly, in small little ways, as you keep dating, you start asking those questions, you start intentionally doing that work. So either you don't waste your time or you don't have It's almost like leaving your home muchil the last minute.
You know, but you know you have to do it.
That was me always, I know I have to finish my dissertation, but I am up the night before trying to cram everything and so anxious when I'm doing it. And so it's either you do things as time is going on, or you suddenly realize you've bombarded yourself with all this work that has to be done in the relationship. And when you start realizing it all at once, imagine the pressure that it puts on that relationship, exactly in
¶ Three questions to ask your partner
your honeymoon phase of when you when you've just got married and sudden you start noticing all these things that you had no idea about in the two three years of dating because you were busy having fun.
Exactly.
Yeah, And I always tell people because some people will be like, well, I don't want to do the work. The work is work, And I'm always like, you know what it's way more work to try to not do the work because it's going to get really big and there's going to be a lot of work at some point, or you're gonna find yourself floating from a relationship to relationship going oh my gosh, why are relationship so hard?
Until you do that in our work for a period of time.
See, my Mum's always right. Don't leave your homework to the last minute.
Okay, don't leave your homework to the last minute. What would you say are questions you mentioned, you know, asking certain questions on days? What would you say are the questtions you should ask your partner? Do you have like three questions that if you're in a dating environment, you're starting to date someone, what would be three questions that you recommend asking.
That's a great question. I would say number one, like what is this person actually looking for?
You know?
And I think having that question in there, I don't think that has to be like date number one, but I think that when somebody is more secure and they're rooted in themselves, like that's something you ask when you're a few weeks into the dating stage, because if you don't have the security to just like have the dialogue or conversation, and if you're looking for something different than them, even if you're compatible in lots of ways, if you're
different in different stages of life, like that actually just becomes a non negotiable. So like what are they looking for like in this season of their life in regards to dating, but also what are they looking for in a partner? I would say it would be number two, Like what are those important qualities and characteristics? And it goes back to this part where vetting should be reciprocal, like we're not just supposed to that. It's funny because
different attachment cells may do this in different ways. So anxious attachment cells will kind of like find somebody attractive and like them, and then they won't vet them at all. They'll just people please them and try to win them over. Dismissive avoidance sometimes because they get afraid of being vulnerable.
Can flow find a little bit when they get too close, so they can be like a little nitpicky of people because they don't want to feel like, oh yeah, this is a perfect connection, or they don't want to like them too much or put them on a pedestal, so they'll kind of like flow find a little bit, and the balance is what we're ideally looking for. We're looking for I'm going to vet you and look for the qualities that you have and see if those are a good fit for my life without being two in the
flaw finding space. And I'm also going to, you know, make sure that I'm clear about your qualities and I'm going to open up about my own so that you can see if I'm a.
Good fit for you.
And so it's not people pleasing, but it's being open and vulnerable and transparent so we can see if this is actually something that could work. And so I would say those are two really important questions. And I would say the third question is really going to be about like what are your non negotiables around dating, because again, when we can get that touper clear, we put ourselves in a position where we're just not like wasting our time and we're able to do things so much more intentionally.
Thank you. Those are great question for people.
I actually had written down the question of do you does your style make you that way towards yourself and you've already answered that, but it was really interesting to me when I read my question after going through the attachment styles and reading the book that I didn't even you know, in my mind, I wasn't sure, Like I was like, but what's crazy to me is that you don't expect them to be something you do to yourself.
Yes, Like I think you could read that.
I think you could go through these attachment styles and be like, yeah, he presents is this and I present as this to him or to her, but thinking about the fact that I do it to myself, Yes, it's I didn't connect the two.
Yeah, And that's like, I think so important for anybody listening to flash out to like dismissive a point sometimes will neglect their own emotions because it's that internalized emotional neglact and sometimes kind of like push things down or like step it away or avoid it a little bit.
That because there are other people in the world going through this and this, and so why should I feel sad about this?
And that's like.
In its own essence, it's this beautifully packaged emotional denial, right because it's like, oh, like other people are going through harder things, so I'm not allowed to have or be entitled to my feelings, which is just emotional neglect of self in a different form and so, and you'll see like for each person they are that to self. Right, anxious preoccupants are people pleasing everybody else, but in that
they're literally abandoning themselves all the time. And so no wonder their abandonment wound is so strong is because they're keeping it alive. Like I always think of when we don't know how to meet our own needs, and this is very like anxious attachment cell. Like imagine that you have an anxious attachment cell and they're driving to a gas station and their gas tank is fully empty. You pull into the gas station and you're like, oh my god,
it better be open. You're panicking. But if your gas tank is always halfway full when you pull in, if this gas station is not open or they're out of gas, you're like, oh, that's fine, I can go to the next gas station because your tank is half full. And that's really what it means to meet our own needs
a relationship to self. Not only is it our form of self soothing, but it's also our ability to not panic and get so dysregulated if somebody's not available to us, because we're not running on empty in the relationship to self, all the time, and so because they keep themselves on empty there, they fear that from other people just like by the same token, like even for a fearful avoidant, which I haven't mentioned.
Like for me, I.
Would be like all or nothing all the time with myself,
¶ Thais' other books
like really focusing doing a really good job for a few days on being kind to myself whatever, and then drop off and.
Go to the full opposite direction.
And like you'd see that, and then of course I show up that way in relationships because that's relationship to me first.
Yeah, I think we just were not taught to even reflect on ourselves in that way. You read all these things and you're thinking about how am I acting to this person or how is this person acting to me? But the last thing you think about is how am I acting to myself?
How am I relating to myself? How am I speaking to myself?
And so I think it's such a great exercise to go through, like start with yourself before you end up thinking about anybody else that you or acting towards or having an interaction with.
It makes such a difference.
Absolutely, can you.
Tell people because I haven't even mentioned I mentioned the book briefly, but there are two books of yours that I have. Could you share the books with people? Because I think that after listening to this, I mean, how informative was this. This was such a great conversation. But I think for people to know what should the next steps be, I think reading your book would be great. So could you share both your books and just give a little bit about what each of them are?
Yes, thank you.
So the first is called The Attachment Theory Guide, and it's kind of like about the attachment cells and how to recognize which one you are. And then there's our second book, which is called Learning Love, and it's all about like it's really learning self love and how to bring that into relationships. But it's actually about those major characteristics, so reprogramming core wounds, learning your needs, emotional regulation, the boundaries,
¶ Know more about Thais
and the communication. And so we go through when we break down how to recognize each attachment cell, but then how to reprogram your attachment cell and actually heal it to become secure attached, and we go through all the different like reprogramming exercises and all that stuff.
So it's great.
So you feel like people are able to do this by themselves without needing the help of a professional if they can go through the you know, go through the books and they able to help themselves before needing to maybe go out to somebody to do that.
Yes, they're designed to be that way for sure.
I mean I don't want to tell people like, don't ever get support, but it's all designed to be that you can.
Go through and become securely attached for doing that work.
Yeah, my god, thank you. This is amazing.
But I want to ask you a few questions about you actually, Okay, what would you say is something that people don't know about you that you would want them to.
I would say, I'm not sure if it's like I want them to, but I would say that something I never share is I actually grew up and played soccer. I played Division one soccer. I got a full ride soccer scholarship. It was like my passion and like my first really big thing. I was obsessed with my young adult life. And yeah, fun fact amazing. And what are you reading and listening to right now? What are your favorite podcasts? Your favorite books at the moment? Oh my gosh,
there's so many. I feel like I'm just so I love a course in Miracles. I'm really into like a lot of the spiritual stuff. And so every morning I listened to like an hour long Course of Miracles podcast go through like the Daily last Day.
They're so good. It takes a bit to like it.
I didn't get into it right away, but I'm really into like the spiritual side of things too, and so I love that. That's like my my like deep peaceful activity. And then I'm reading doctor Gaber mad Day's book, one of those newer books that he wrote, I think with
his son. It's called The Myth of Normal and I love, I love all the stuff that where he talks about like the body and how this is affected and yeah, and I'm also reading this other book because I'm really interested in a lot of health related things too, called The Root Cause Oh Bye, Isabella wentz Okay.
And it's like that's one of the best health book I've ever read. It's so good. So yeah, really good ones.
It's amazing. And what are you working on at the moment?
Are you excited about anything in life that you're ready to share with people?
Yeah? So we are.
So we have the Personal Development School. We have like all these programs are like more immersive programs for becoming securely attached with these like ninety day boot camps, and I'm working on creating this certification for people to also get like certified in all these different things.
So excited for that. And then I'm working on preparing to have.
A baby in a year or so, Like I'm like, we're going to maybe start the process, my husband and I in a little bit, so like that's sort of a personal thing that I'm working.
Oh. I love that you shared that because I think the preparation you know, Iraida talks about that all the time. How when you're thinking about having a child, need you need at least a minimum of six months, if not a year to start not just preparing your mind or your external environment, but your physical body and to invite you know, your in your in your spiritual state, your mental state, and your physical state to be prepared to invite a beautiful soul into your body and into your life.
And so I love that you said that you're preparing for that because I think it is something that is such a uh it's a responsibility and it's something so magical that happens that to spend the time to prepare for it is so important.
Oh, that's so cool. It's so cool to hear that. I've never heard that before.
I'll share some books with you. Honest really love that last question. When was it the last time you cried?
Oh my gosh, are you a crier? I have a crier?
Are you are?
I cry happy tears a lot more now than sad tears. But I will say, my poor dear sister is going through a hard time physically with some health stuff, some really serious health stuff.
So I cried a few days ago about that.
We were really worried about her. She she had to go to the hospital. She she went through a lot of like heart issues, and she's really young, so that made me cry.
I feel like if I told her cry on your podcast.
No, you didn't have to go into detail, but I appreciate you doing that, and honestly, everybody on everybody does listening to this, say little prayer for your sister. I think I wished her well and thank you so much for this.
This was phenomenal, I think.
I mean, I can't wait for all of you to listen to this, And when you do, please please go and find Tyson's share all your thoughts and give her thanks.
If you appreciated it. Thank you all so much.
Subscribe to the podcast and I would love feedback whatever it is.
Thanks so much.