What's behind Beyonce A whole lot of help being self made? It sounds really strong. We are starting to see some people who have been highly functioning on their own sort of crash.
Nedra is a licensed therapist with a community of over two million on Instagram. She reaches the global audience each week through her podcast You Need to Hear This. In her newest book, The Balancing Act, Nedra offers a roadmap to creating relationships that on a both dependency and individuality. Tell me what a healthy, wonderful, not codependent relationship looks like.
We're not very flexible with people. When people have a limitation, it doesn't mean gosh, I got it in the relationship with this person. A conflict free relationship isn't healthy because that means you don't talk about anything. Yeah, so some conflict is good for the relationship. You have to question the experience of being with the one. Maybe this was one of the ones. There may be another one. You
got your ones mixed up. I don't know what the universe has for you, but today this is the two right the one.
I'm radi wkah and on my podcast A Really Good Cry, we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together. Noda, thank you so much for being here. I deeply enjoyed reading your book. I felt like I learned so much from it. So first I just want to say thank you for being here and blessing us with your presence.
Thank you for having me. This is this is going to be good. I feel the calmness entering my spirit. You actually really have that energy.
As soon as you walked in and I was in your sphere of energy, I was like, Wow, she's a very calm person and I really appreciate that.
So thanks for bringing that here. You're welcome. I wanted to ask you just to start off.
So I know you've already had two incredible books that have come out, both on different topics. What brought you to write this book and why this topic in particular.
Yeah, So, what I'm noticing now with some of my clients is more disconnection in their relationships. And I think when we seek boundaries and we seek healing, and we seek all these things, it needs to be in tandem with connection. And so it's very important to me to say, hey, we could be dependent in healthy ways. We don't have to erase everything. We don't have to reject all things or have these you know, strong rules about stuff in
every situation. We have to be flexible because being connected leads to better mental health, longer life span, all sorts of things. But it's positive for us to have these connections. And I see that we're losing them.
And obviously you've had you've had many clients, and you've done this for such a long time. What are you noticing or what past things are you noticing that people are having that is causing this disconnection.
I think people are more self aware and maybe a little less sometimes other tolerating. Okay, right, so I'm more self aware and the things that people won't change or haven't change is annoying. Now, there are some things that I think we can all agree are toxic, unhealthy, abusive, But then there are other things where it's like you may have a friend where you need to just have a conversation with them and say, hey, you can't call
me seven times today, I'm not available. It doesn't mean the relationship needs to end or you need to confront them. But it's just like I'm not available that much. I have a busy work schedule. I will, you know, maybe chat with you when I'm done, but you know, reassuring people, letting them know that you want to be in a relationship and it's still important to you. Yeah, I know.
I feel like sometimes it's really difficult to know whether the boundary between being self aware and then being selfish, like being so self obsessed in not self obsessed in an extiboy, but being so self aware that it kind of turns into self obsession where you're being so protective, so rigid with the way that you want to live your life, and then you have like this lack of consideration maybe for others, because I feel like in society
we're told now it's so much about self care, self regulation, self self self and I think that sometimes can stop us from connecting with people and actually taking other people into consideration.
As much agreed. Tonight, I have a friend date with a friend who just happens to be in work from Charlotte. She's here working and she was like, well, let me know what hotel you're saying it so I could get a room. I said, you don't have to do that. We can share a room.
Yeah.
She was like really. I was like, yeah, old school sleepover with Yeah. Now she was like okay, yeah, but yeah, we live in a society now it's like separate room more division, can't share. Oh my gosh, what if she wants the room too warm? I'm like, will work it out. Yeah, being a little bit more flexible than like, I will work it out, like maybe I'll put on an extra
shirt or something like it a little chillier. But I really want to spend this time with you, and I think if we go to our separate rooms, that's less time that we get to spend together. Yeah, that's so true.
That's such a nice way to think about it actually, especially in situations where you don't feel comfortable, like sometimes putting yourself out of your comfort zone when it comes to building connections is how you can create better relationships. And I find with I mean speaking for myself, when I moved countries and I came here, I noticed I had to put myself into uncomfortable communication and uncomfortable scenarios
to actually build relationships with people. Otherwise, if I kept myself to myself, I would have probably felt really lonely when I was here.
Yeah, and I think you have to go the distance in those situations. It's like, Okay, I had lunch with that person, it was pretty cool, and let's follow up. Yeah, yes, abandon it because sometimes we'll start that connection, will notice that spark, and then we just like let it fizzle totally. You have to keep it going, Yeah, you really do.
What are some practical tools that you find if people are feeling a little bit lonely but also find themselves being someone who doesn't connect as easily. What are some easy tips of tools that people can use to get themselves to a place but they are able to connect better.
Who's already in your orbit? Sometimes we're not noticing who has been saying do you need any help? You want to go out for coffee? Yeah, yeah, let's get it. Sometimes really follow up on that. Maybe there's someone already there and you don't need to seek out any new people. Are there some old people around? Because sometimes we have lost some connections that we just need to send that text or we need to say, hey, it's been a while, Yeah I'd love to reconnect with you. So meeting the
new people is great and also who's already here. What do I need to nurture? What can can flourish with a little bit of care and love and attention. From my perspective.
It's so interesting because these days, when you do follow up with people, when you say let's get coffee and you actually message them, I noticed, it's such almost like a shock that that actually happened, that this person actually followed up. And my mom has that characteristic of she if she says she's going to do something, or she's going to make a call for you, or she's gonna message you, she will absolutely do it, like she will
go that extra mile for you. But I've noticed in our generation it's so much harder for people to actually do that, yeah, to follow through, and when they do, it's like a surprise, Oh, well, that person actually messaged me.
I think sometimes because we are so busy, we have to remember it's not that people don't want to be in community with us. Sometimes they are busy. We are busy, and these things just fall out if we don't keep them going. Yeah, and also with relationships, I think it's really important that we give people a strategic thing they can do. So if I want to connect with you. It's like, hey, are you available on the thirteenth at five o'clock for dinner?
Yes?
Finish the finish the sentence right right. You want to connect because sometimes people forget that, but sometimes people want to connect and it's all of this other noise in life and we can't have those connections. But giving them something strategic and solid, like can we do this on this date at this time. It works very well. If I text a friend and I say like, hey, want to grab dinner? Usually I follow up with a RESI invite. Yeah, you add yourself to the it's done. And I have
one friend she's like, thank you girl. You are always yeah, And I'm like, I am, but it's only because I don't want to have ten text messages about doing the thing and then we never do the thing. It's so true, I'm saying any of them, it's like we've been talking about connecting for a very long time. We haven't actually scheduled anything.
Yeah, that's yeah. My husband's really good at that. Actually I'm getting better at It's something I'm working on for sure. In your book, you talk about a dependency spectrum. Could you share a little bit more about that and educate us on what that looks like.
And is everyone on that spectrum? Yes, everybody is on the dependency spectrum. I would say on the unhealthy end of it, you see more codependency, and you see more enmeshment. And then on the healthier and would you would see where you can exist in relationships and give and take
and rejuvenate. But I would say, if we look at the spectrum like this, one end is codependency enmeshment, than this other end is counterdependency or hyper independence, where you feel this need to do things without people, where you're more avoidant of relationships and connection, or you have this do it yourself approach. And then in the middle, you know, right there in the middle, that's where we can invite people in. We can let them know what our needs are.
We can place our boundaries gently, we can have tough conversations. We can be flexible. We allow other people to be flexible. You know, one of the big things I'm noticing now is we're not very flexible with people. Sometimes when people have a limitation, it doesn't mean gosh, I got to end the relationship with this person because they don't want to start doing yoga with me, it's like, that's not
your yoga friend. Yeah, yeah, you have to find new people. Yeah, it might be somebody who's already going to the classes or someone you ask in another setting, but it's not this person, and you can still have a relationship with them. But you know, sometimes we're like, no, this person has if you're a friend, it means this, this, this, and this. When we can be flexible and say, well, huh, okay, you're not a friend for that.
And the spectrum that you mentioned, you said one side of it as could you elaborate on that littabit and give some signs and like symptoms of what it might look like if you are in that kind of relationship.
Yes, So one side I would say is enmeshment, which is having a I don't want to say just close connection, but one where you do everything together, you think alike, you're unable to have any separation. Sometimes this happens in families, and it's fine until one person wants something different. It's fine until maybe somebody else comes into that system and they're like, what is happening here? Why are you sleeping in the bed with your mom?
Right?
Come on, he're my partner. Don't do this, so you know, they start to notice, like these things are weird. You're talking to your mom like twenty times a day, like that's you know, and if that's okay for you, and it's fine, it's really not a problem, right because you all are mutually agreeing to this, But it becomes problematic when one person wants to break out of that sort of sins. And then I would say, pretty much akin to that is codependency, where we are helping someone who
has some unhealthy thing along to their detriment. We're doing it to feel this need we have to be wanted, to be needed, to have some space, and sometimes we are you know, I think with codependency, we are showing that I love this person and I want to help them. The challenge is it's just not helpful, right, you know, you can't get this person to do something in their life that they're not interested in, no matter what their potential is, no matter you know what you give them.
Sometimes people have to do those things on their own. So the codependency is like I'm going to save them, and then the ameshment is like I have to be with them all the time, and then you know, the opposite end of that, we have counterdependency where people have you know, based on you know, maybe some trauma in a relationlationship, or some family upbringing stuff that I need to do things on my own. Relationships are a place of pain. If people get too close, they can hurt me.
And so with that you don't have any people.
I feel like it's also trying to prove yourself right, like that I can do things by myself. Sometimes it can be you feel like people have done too much for you in your life, and then you get to an age where you're saying, no, no, I want to prove that I can do things by myself. And in your book you talk about being self made, and I really love the point that you made in that about how no one's actually have a self made no, like, you never do anything by yourself.
It made me a cup of tea. Yeah this wasn't self made. Somebody made the tea. Yeah, you know, so is that even a real thing? You know, we rely on people, whether we see them or we don't. We are relying on other people for our goods, for our living. You know, your power, your your gas, all of those things come from other places in the world. Outside yourself. I think the thing with being self made it sounds really strong, Yeah, exactly. Sound was like, oh my gosh,
I'm like this fearless person. I don't need any people. And it's unfortunate. Actually, it's very sad. You know. I do think we get less needy with time. When you think of an infant, like they're one hundred percent needy. Yeah. Yeah, you can't even hold your head up. It's like you need help with everything. Yeah. And then you you know, you get a little older and you can do these things, but you still need people in some capacity. You never grow out of needing, No, you really don't.
And I think, and I always I loved what you said in your book about we're supposed to be needy, Like we as humans are meant to be needy. We're supposed to need other people. And the moment you end up thinking that it's just you, you not only put yourself up, you know, you disadvantage yourself because you're not allowing the kind of the connections. And the more the hands that you can hold, the more you have the capability of doing, and the more people that you allow into your life,
the more opportunities and experiences that you get. And so I feel like, if you constantly think that I'm going to do this by myself, I can do it by myself.
I will and I don't.
Need anyone to help me. You're almost putting yourself at such a disadvantage. I feel like for a lot of women, especially because of how society has become, we're always wanting to prove ourselves, to show that we don't need other people, like that we can do things by ourselves, because I mean, I've noticed that a lot of my friends and even in myself, I went through a phrase of saying, I don't need anyone to pick.
Up my bags.
I don't need anyone to you know, if I'm scared at night of walking somewhere, I don't actually need anyone to take me there because I am capable of going by myself. And I think there's this constant proving of being a strong independent woman as being a positive and it being such a big thing. But it's also okay to lean into your feminine feel like you do need other people to support you.
Yeah, And I think we are starting to see some people who have been highly functioning on their own sort of crash, yeah, because it is a lot to always be the responsible party, to be the person who has everyone coming to them, to be, you know, the strong one, and you don't have anywhere to go. Like that's I hope it's you know, trending down. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that we are learning that it's it's okay to embrace people, like to have more people to help you
with things. Yeah, that's that's how you go further. You know. Sometimes we look at people in our fields and we admire them, and it's like, what's behind Beyonce? A whole lot of help? Yeah, a whole lot of help. I mean, just the decisions that she doesn't have to make because other people are helping her helps her to be this superstar. Yeah, she couldn't do all this stuff like that's not possible. So we have to embrace to be a better version of ourselves. We too need to ask for help, and
sometimes if we can't pay for the help. Some of us are fortunate enough to have housekeepers or to have a babysitting service, or laundry services or all these things, we have to think about who in our community could help. Can I go over to my friend's house once a week for dinner and she comes over to mind that takes me having a cook out of the loop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
That's helpful. That's enough. Yeah, we have to get creative around what being in connection and in partnerships with others in this life really looks like, Yeah, I love that.
I wanted to go back to what you were saying about codependency, because you know, I feel like there's two different types of couples that I've.
Been seeing a lot.
Either a couple who they get together and then they literally do everything together. They rely on each other so much they become really insular where sometimes their friends don't even matter, like everything ends up being them two together doing everything together. Do you think that that is an unhealthy approach? And do you think there's a need for couples to have their own individual friends, their own individual people that they have in their life or have you seen at work?
I can't say many people come to therapy with that problem. Okay, of spending two us time together. Okay, okay, it's the opposite. It's like you are, please go on a date, right, It's so the opposite. But outside of that space, I have seen that, and I think in some ways that level of I was saying, meshment is probably healthy at the beginning of your relationship when you're getting to know each other and you like shut off the noise in the world, and it's like it's so true, just like
this is so great. Yeah. After some time, I would say about a year or so, maybe you know, you start to come back to yourself. Yeah, and you start to, oh, my gosh, on Thursdays, I used to go to trivia. What happened? I got to get back to my trivia people. You know, they miss you. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's Oh, I've had my head in the sand with the love
of my life, let's have a girl's night. And you know, I think as we get older, hopeful with hopefully we learn not to abandon our world when people come into our lives and we really figure out a way to incorporate them into it, even if that's like I just I want to be with my man all the time. Yeah. Maybe maybe your friend third Wheels, Yeah exactly, it's like, now all of y'all can be together, like figuring out
some sort of way to keep those things going. But maybe there are some couples who it's like they're like this forever and ever. I don't know any in particular. Yeah, but but.
You said right at the beginning of the relationship, it is really nice to have go into your own noble well then be able to connect him that.
Way, yeah, and come out of it. Yeah, yeah, and then come out of it. Don't stay there, because what
tends to happen. Let's say that the couples I've known where they have had that prolonged experience, one of them starts to get tired of it, right, So it's it's maybe the other person they want to keep it going, like, well, we spend all our time together, and the other person is like, I need a break, I need a break, Like this is intense, Like I really really love you, and I don't want to be with you all the time. And it's it's not anything about you, but it's really
like there's something about having your own time to be silent. Yeah, there's something about having your own space with people who aren't your partner. Yes, those connections.
And the couples that you were saying on the other side of the spectrum where they've lost that connections and they're trying to rebuild that. What are some of the things that you recommend that they do to help rebuild that deeper connection that they're looking for.
Well, I think time together matters. And as we are moving through life and we have work and we have all these things, we get into the rhythm of I go to my space, you go to your space doing mundane things together, whether that's you know, having breakfast together in the morning before you all leave for work, or if you work from home, having breakfast together, maybe having lunch a few times a week. Also, if you need to run errands, take your partner with you. They can
go to ups. Yeah, everybody's welcome, you know, So take them on some errands with you.
And they also have some dates, plan schedule things that you're doing together.
Schedule things not all on one partner. Yeah, both people can figure out what a date could be. So I think that time together is really important. You know, when you look at the divorces that we see, like in media, it's like they were always traveling. They didn't have any time together, right right, right. It's something about making the connection important. And when we don't have people around, we start to have a life without them. Yeah, like if my partner is never here or we don't have any
ways to connect? What are we doing? What is this relationship? I was talking to a friend who's an astronaut and she was saying how I was asking her because you travel so much. Yeah, like you're gone for months and you know, she was I was saying, how do you stay connected with your husband? And she said, we've talked about the moon that I see is the moon that you see? And when we stare at the moon, we are seeing each other. And I said, Oh, are you
writing a rhymklm about that moon? Like we're connecting over the moon. And that's Katie Kleman. I met her a while ago and I was like, oh, my gosh, an astronaut and she yeah. I was like, that's that's such an interesting job to have and to have a long marriage. It's like, how do you do that? And she's like, yeah, I do it by you know, making the time I'm gone. But we have other connection points. So I think having something with a partner that's consistent and true for you
is really important. And I don't have a time remedy for that, Like I can't say, oh, you should spend six hours a week with your partner because it's you know it's unique and it's up to the couple. Everybody's needs are different. However, I do know that that unique connection is important.
Yeah, And I feel like, well there's mundane things that you said of having breakfast together, going to ups to t It's like it can either and even they're looking at the moon and seeing in a different way. It can either be a monotonous thing that you do every single day and the same activity can have intense connection or it can have intense disconnection. So that same activity, depending on how you are choosing to interact with that person,
can completely shift. Are you choosing to be on your phone or are you choosing to put it down for that fifteen minutes where you guys are eating together so you can think of questions and conversations that you can have. Or you could be having breakfast every single day together and not connect at all. And so I feel like having those those moments, but having them where you're a lot more conscious of how.
Those moments are being spent.
Then even if you just have those fifteen minutes a day together, it can feel like you've reconnected every single day for fifteen minutes, even if it's just for those small moments.
Yeah, I think we need to do that in our romantic relationships with our family with her, Yeah, and like being intentional about curating the relationship experience I used to.
That reminds me of when me and Jay had started dating. We I used to spend a lot of time in my family. I still do, but even though we're far away. But when we started dating, I would be like, just come over and spend time with my family. Like that's how I would tell him that we just hang out and have dates together, but like, just come over with my mom and dad, we're watching a movie. Come over
and spend time together. And I remember I'm saying to me, he was like, as much as I love your family, I'm not a let me just sit around with your family type of person. And at first I thought, that's so rude, because why would you not want to spend time with.
Me and my family.
And then because when it's your family, of course you want to spend time with them, And then I remember him saying, he goes, I will always want to spend quality time with your family, but I don't want to be someone who's spending unconscious time with them where I just have to be there but not actually connect with them, and so he's always He's taught me the idea of Okay, even if we don't have a lot of time, I want your if I'm spending time with your dad, I
want it to be intentional, and I want it to feel like we've actually connected, and I want it to be off quality. I don't really want to just sit there and watch a movie with him because I don't
feel like I've connected to him. And so that for me was really interesting because I used to spend a lot of passive time with my family, and now I try to make it so that I have individual connection with each person or ask them about their you know, life before I existed, or like question them and get to know them a little bit deeper when I'm spending time with them rather than it being passive interactions. And it's really changed the quality of our relationship in that way.
Some more quality time and that quantity.
Time, yes, exactly, more intentional, like you said, spend thinking about how that time is being utilized.
Yeah, that's that's really important. You know, there is many parenting experts will say, like fifteen strategic minutes with your children. Yeah, just having like literally like I'm going to sit here and play whatever you want to play. Yeah, Like that's an important way to connect. A lot of times we think, oh my gosh, I have to play Uno for hours and hours and it's just like not necessarily, but sometime, can it be fifteen minutes? Can it be twenty minutes?
Can it be thirty minutes of intentional time? Not just like I'm packing your lunch and we're doing this, but like, here is our time together to really focus on each other. And can it be in a way that you know that person likes to spend time together? Yeah. Yeah. With kids, that's really important. They love to, you know, have their way with you, teach, teach you stuff. I know my daughter is like, do you know how to play so and so?
No?
I don't. And when she teaches me something, she never stops talking about it. Now, what is your do with I have to dine and twelve? Okay? The nine year old is the one who's like, let me show you a thing and you have to look.
So yeah, my nephews like that. Tim always wants to like tell me about the things that he's learning. So now I just let him to sit and listen and he just loves being the one that's teaching and sharing with other people rather than the other person doing a lot of the.
Test their whole world. Yeah exactly. When they get to take that role of like listen to me, so true, they feel like powerful. So I'm like, okay, how do we do it? My daughter has tried to teach me to knit. Wow, I can't get it, but I love to watch you do it. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. I love watching you. So I that second loop with the oh I can't get like you did that? You did it? Yeah, amazing.
With your blanket, you touch on attachment styles in your book, and I was wondering how you feel that really impacts not just romantic relationships, but also with your children or with your family, and how can we utilize them to really deepen or maintain connections.
I think it's something to be aware of but not limited by. Okay, And sometimes with attachment styles, people will say, oh, I'm avoidant or I'm ancious, as if it's now this personality trait, and we negate all of the things that brought us to that attachment style. And sometimes we have to point the finger at the problem and not everyone because if you're saying, I'm giving in to having this person who made me feel like I should never ask
for help, so now I'm never doing it. I'm avoidant of you know, people and them trying to get too close to me because I won't. I won't be hurt again. You are letting the past determine what your future can be relationships, and you know in parenting you can do that too. You can still be anxious and you know, we call that helicopter parenting or always kicking on your
kids and you know, all these sorts of things. Or you could be avoidant where you know your kids they don't really have any support from you, where they feel neglected because you're really not in tune with their life and friendships. We could do it where you know, people text us and we never respond. You know, we're being avoidant. We're not following up with that person. We could be anxious.
Is she mad at me? Is she? You know? So the disorganized, the anxious attachment, the avoidant, I think it has a place. And also we can override all systems. Yeah, we do not have to stay there. There are certain relationships where we just feel so secure because of who the person is and how they show up with us. There are others where we might have some more avoidant tendencies because of I don't know, maybe they represent something.
Maybe there's something there, because I think we've all had those relationships that kind of jar us where it's like I don't typically get upset at this thing, but with this person, you're triggering, you're ting me, you're making me not want to talk, like what is it with this person? Or you know, sometimes when you have a deep connection really fast with a dating companion, it's like, oh my gosh, like I am the person who takes like we to
like somebody overnight, you know. So so different relationships bring out different parts of us, and we have to be open to that. So we don't have to hitch our wagon into one attachment style. I am this forever. We're capable of change. I do think the attachment styles relate to our dependency level. People who are avoidant or have more of a disorganized style tend to, you know, have some unhealthy dependency. The avoidance you know, I meant the anxiety.
I think that also causes some in some cases, like codependency, when you have that fearful, that anxious it causes some codependency and ameshment because you need those people to say close so you can feel more secure, like, oh, they don't need if they don't leave, if they always do this, then then I feel a bit okay. But then it comes back up. And then with the avoidant, you know, we're still having some dependency issues again on that opposite
spectrum of we're not letting people in, we're hyperdependent. Yeah.
I really like that you said it's not to be limited by them, because I think sometimes when you get labeled as something, you think, well, that's just how I am, But actually it could be a place where it helps you to recognize the areas that maybe you need to improve in, or the areas that you need to adapt and become more flexible in, rather than saying this is just who I am when you come into the relationship,
I'm an avoidant, I'm an anxious attachment. Okay, well that's just how we're going to be then in this relationship. But to use that information to make the other person feel more comfortable, but also to use that information to make yourself aware of it so you can become better with different scenarios within that relationship.
And in therapy, these are not and people are surprised. Sometimes these are not terms I would use with a client, right, So if they use those terms, we'll explore it. But I don't say, oh, you sound like you have an anxious attached right. What I might say is it seems like with this person and the last person, when somebody starts to get close to you, you pull away. Let's talk about why that happens, because it's really the behavior or whatever any of these labels are. It's like, what
is the behavior we're working on. We're working on tolerating, building your tolerance for closeness. Right, when someone likes you, it's okay to like them back, like you're a super cool person. Yeah, yeah, they should like you like it's okay to like them back. You don't have to push them away. So again, I think these things are great for information, but using them as a limitation for ourselves and for other people, it doesn't necessarily get us to the space we want to be in. We can be
in a relationship with someone who's avoidant. You know, we might have a family member who's like that. Maybe your brother like never answers your text or something. And there's ways to explore that, to say, like, hey, when I'm texting you, I just want to know you're okay. So even if you just text me like okay, I'm really just checking in because you know, I want to make sure you're okay and I need to know like little bro is all right. Yeah, yeah, So send me something.
You know.
That's a conversation. It's not a let me text him. You're avoiding my calls, right, you know those sorts of things, like sometimes people aren't open to that because they have this heavy label on them.
So what is the behavior and what do you say to people who or what advice would you give to people who always feel like the expectations are not met or the disappointed constantly in relationships or yeah, with interactions?
Yeah, what are your expectations? That's really hard because I've heard some Yeah, I think people should be able to meet that, and I've heard some like that's a wild expectation. So I think it really depends. And I think if nobody ever ever can meet the expectation, that would make me question if my expectation is reasonable? Right? Am I communicating my expectation in a way that people can understand. Is the relationship in a place where I can even
have that expectation. One of the things I talk about in the book is sometimes our expectations don't fit the relationship we are. We're calling someone our best friend, when in actuality they're just a friend. They're not best We're calling a friend a friend, and this person might be an associate. What are your expectations of a neighbor? What is your expectations of a coworker, What are your expectations
of an associate? What are your expectations of work? You know, like having these different levels of interaction, it kind of helps us not be disappointed. Yes, that is such a good point.
It made me think of Over summer, I ended up having this interaction with a friend who wanted to make who had asked me to be a bridesmaid in her wedding, and I think I said yes because in my mind I had never been a bridesmaid before, so I actually didn't know what the expectations of being a bridesmaid for a friend looked like. And for her, she had very high expectations of what her bridesmaid would be doing for
her or how they would show up. And I think there was such a lack of realization of how close the friendship was or how close we each thought we were to each other, and then the expectations that were put on that one interaction of being my bridesmaid, me saying yeah, of course I'll do it, not realizing the weight that it held for her, and her not realizing for me that I actually didn't think that it was much of It was a big deal, but not that
much of a big deal. And so the lack of awareness of our yeah, our expectations of one another really ended up making the relationship so much worse because we hadn't clarified those expectations and we put different weights to each other. We'd held each other in high regards in some areas where maybe we weren't supposed to.
And so what you said really hit.
Me because I was like, yeah, I think our expectations would just have the right expectations of the level that you're at with each person, and that makes such a difference to make all the terrifying relationships.
Yeah, I think with dating sometimes even in our family relationships, I mean, we can't categorize them as like best sister or association. Yes, but you know, I think just being aware that all relationships aren't deeply connected. Some relationships are just connection, right, and that's it. Like we you know, we see each other on holidays and that's fine, and everybody everything doesn't have to be close. And if the expectation is that you will be disappointed.
Yes, I think that's such a good point that I needed to hear, and I'm sure many other people needed to hear. I feel like a lot of the time you expect when you have a friend that they're going to meet every part of what you require a friendship to be. They're going to fulfill that. It's like, I really feel like this person's going to be my best friend.
And then as you grow up, you realize you just have different people for different things, and each person holds You can have a different type of expectation for each person, but not all your expectations on one person. It's whether it's a friend, whether it's a partner, whether it's your mom. It's really difficult for that person to hold that weight of all your expectations and for you to expect that person to have that for you.
And I think sometimes we have to, you know, in align with what you're saying, we have to go to the right person for the right thing. And you know, if I'm having a work issue, I'm an entrepreneur, I want to talk to my other entrepreneur friends. Yeah, I don't want to talk to my corporate friends about it because their situations in life are different. It's not that I'm hiding information. It's just like, I think what we're talking about is you need to having people who work
with you and these sources of things. So I want to talk to a person who I know have had similar experiences because I'm trying to work through mine. Yep. So yeah, having different people in different ways is really important because I've been in conversations with people where someone is talking to you about a thing and it's like I don't even know what to say. Yeah, yeah, I'm not the right passion for this. This is I cannot
help you with your taxi. I don't even know how we got here of Have you looked at AG and R block, Yeah yeah it was. Yeah, I've been in that situations for sure.
I'm like, it might not be the bright passion, but I can direct you towards the right person.
Yeah. Like legal issues, I've had people be like, man, what do you think about this custody of I don't know, like a two three two, I don't know. I don't even know what the thing is like. Have you talked to an attorney? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm not the person to help with custody arrangements, So yeah, I think it's in our interest sometimes to even redirect people when we find that, whether it's they need a level of expertise
or they're fixated on a topic. Because sometimes you know, we want to be available, we want our friends to come to us in crisis. But if we notice, wow, you've talked about the same thing in the same way for six months, I don't feel like our conversations are moving the needle. Have you thought about talking to maybe a therapist, or have you mentioned this to your therapist directing them to the right play. Yeah, because we don't want to be the container for all that stuff. It
can become too heavy. Yeah, it could become too heavy, And then that's when you start avoiding their cause you don't want to be like, I am so tired of hearing this thing. You don't want that.
No. Yeah, you talk about isolation and solitude, and I really loved the difference that you shed between the two of you know, isolation being kind of avoiding things and so being a place of power and strength. Would you eleperate on a little bit and when and how you can differentiate between the two.
Yeah, I feel like isolation is going inward, but in a dark space. I think it's it's a dark space of you going inWORD, not an act of joy, not anything to rejuvenate, not to gain clarity, but just to be away from yep. And we have to be careful of that because when we see isolation, it intensifies loneliness. It is you know a huge culprit of depression, of anxiety, of other psychological issues. When you think about isolation, that's what they use to punish people, right, sending them off
by themselves. Yep. And if you do that enough, you know, people start talking to themselves and making up stories and you know, all sorts of things. So it's a it can be a punitive experience that we put on ourselves versus solitude where we're exploring, we are recharging, we are energetically connecting in another way without people, but we are still welcome, welcoming them in some sort of fashion.
That's such a beautiful way to differentiate the two. I wanted to switch back to relationships a little bit because you talk about the one in your book and how people talk about the one. There's that one person that you just fall in love with and that's the only person that you're get in love for the rest of your life. Give me your insight to that, because I really appreciated that part of your book.
Yeah, when I hear about the one, sometimes it's a person who is not the best for us. And I see people struggling to make something work that is not working because they have identified this person and as having these special qualities, this connection that they've never had before. There is some some deeper thing there, and I think there are people that you can be compatible with. And if you say that this person is the one, I think you will do everything in your power to try
to make it work. Even if it's not working. It could be a bad relationship and you're like, but this is my person. They are not treating you like their person. Yep. This is a one sided experience of you seeing something special here and them not really reciprocating in that way. I'm not saying the one doesn't exist. What I'm saying is you have to question the experience of being with the one. If this is an unhealthy interaction. Maybe this was one of the ones. This is one of the ones,
be another one. You got your ones mixed up? Yeah, you may need to keep counting to the ones because this one is not working. And that's okay for us to really want, you know, this, this thing with a person, and it and not be the time. You know what I say to people sometimes when they're like, this is the one, Maybe it is, but not right now. There are tons of people who come back together when they're
sixty five, yeah, and you're twenty two. Yeah, this might be the one in retirement, but right now they're wreaking havoc. They got to learn a lot of other stuff in the world before they can even come be the one. This may not be the time. Maybe they are. I don't know. I don't know what the universe has for you. But today this is the two, right, it's not the one.
It's almost like you have to break down your own expectations. Yes, there's one thing about having expectations that other people, but when you've built up these expectations in your own mind, you feel like you're disappointing yourself by not allowing, by not by breaking that. It's it's breaking your expectations that you had of that relationship, of the life that you were going to have, of all the little ideas that you've created.
In your mind, and then you have to reframe all of that.
Yeah.
Love can be blinding. Yeah, it can really be blinding, and we can like lose our minds in some of the things. Because when you talk to people after they're out of relationships, it's like and I saw this, and I saw that. Yeah, the clarity comes after I saw that. It's it's it. It literally just like disrupts whatever our natural flowy is. And we can really ignore a lot of things that are not hidden. Yeah, so we have to be aware of that that maybe there's something here I'm not saying.
Okay, So now I was how we want a healthy, wonderful, not codependent relationship. Looks like a healthy dependency in a relationship. How can you notice that day to day? What does it feel like for someone.
On a day to day basis? It is give and take. It is healthy communication with people. So that might look like if someone texts you, you read the text or you let them know, like, hey, you know, I saw your text yesterday, couldn't get to it. But here's the answer. You know, you're recognizing that people matter in your life. You have several friends, and you have you know, maybe some family and a partner, Like you have a robust system. You are a villager. Not just in the village. You
are helping as well. And I think communication skills matter. There are so many relationships that end because we did not communicate properly. I was speaking with someone earlier about getting invice and just not responding to them. How often that ends relationships when you could just communicate, Hey, I see the date, I won't be available, so true, Like that's it. Did you lose a friend because you never said anything or you said you would go and you
didn't show up? Like that feels a way to people. So just saying like hey, I'm not going to be able to make it. I know it's the last minute, something came up, I have a stomach bug or whatever it is. You know, letting people know that things have shifted so that open communication is healthy dependency in your relationships and it's important. It makes all the difference.
Yeah, and it sounds so simple, and yet we make it more complicated by not doing it.
People don't do it.
No, Yeah, And what about doing conflict? So you know, obviously every relationship we're gonna have some sort of conflict. What is a healthy way to if you're trying to improve the way that you deal with conflict in a relationship. What are some steps people can take if it gets too heated, usually with arguments, and how can they reframe that and reconnect in a way that makes conflicts a little bit easier to manage?
So what I think about what is an argument? Sometimes we think if somebody doesn't agree with me, I'm having an argument. Well, you're having a conversation. Is a voice elevated? Is there, you know, some sort of rude back and forth or is it just a conversation about a thing you disagree about? So I think if we could reframe the way we think about conflict and arguing, we can have it more. And one of the things, if we could talk about things sooner and not let them faster,
we don't even have to get to the arguments. If we could say the first or second time of something happening. Hey, you know, the other day I noticed this thing and just have a conversation about that. With our calm voice, we can prevent a lot of the conflict. And conflict is healthy for relationships. It's how we get to know people. It's how we start to understand how they operate, how they think, what we need, things we need to work on when we get upset, because sometimes we don't know
until we're in conflict. So a conflict free relationship isn't healthy because that means you don't talk about anything. Yeah, so some conflict is good. That's good for the relationship. I was saying a couple once and one of the folks said, gosh, you must get tired of us. Every week we come here and we argue about something. And I said, you always talk about something different though you're not arguing about the same thing. You're a couple who just moved in together, so a lot of this stuff
is like you learning how to live together. If you argued about the same thing every week, I would be concerned. This is an ongoing argument. I'm not concerned because it seems like we talk about it, you work through it, and something else comes up. This is a new situation that's going to have in for a few weeks. That's why they say the first year of marriage is the hardest because you're living with the person and you're discovering they do not put a cap on their toothpaste.
What I did disciple that person lives like this, right, And so you're discovering all these They just take their socks off, they just put them on the floor.
Who does that?
You know?
And so every week it's something different, this person who was just like so perfect. It's like and they leave hair in the sink, you know, it's it's it's on and on and on. But you're learning how to live with a person. Okay, I'm living with someone else. Let me get my hair out the sink, let me throw my socks in the basket. Or maybe your partner says, I'm not even gonna talk about this. I'm gonna just pick them up and throw them in a basket. Yeah,
you're figuring things out. That's conflict and that's actually healthy.
What do you think is the main message you want people to really take away from your book? If there's one thing that you want them to take away to enhunt their life in some way, what do you feel like that would be.
Being with other peop people is important, and we have to figure out a way to hold our boundaries to being being healing mode to work on ourselves while working with other people and their stuff. And I'm not talking about toxic stuff. I don't want. I don't want people to say, oh yeah, accept abuse. No, I'm not talking about abuse, neglect and those sorts of things. I'm talking about somebody being routine annoying in a relationship. Relationships should
annoy us. Sometimes they should cause us to have, you know, a moment where it's inconvenient. Things happen for people and things happen for us, and so just having the flexibility around being in relationships is important right now. Thank you. That's so wonderful, Nata, thank you so much for coming on. This is such a wonderful conversation.
I think it's going to hopefully help so many people reconnect and create deeper, more meaningful relationships. Everybody, go out there and grab the balancing act creating healthy dependency and connection without losing yourself. Another best selling book, I'm sure from Nedra.
Thank you again. Thanks so wonderful.