Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Lindsey Harrer. She's US Head Of Medical Strategic Engagement And Partnerships at EMD Sirono. Easy for me to say. Lindsay, welcome to the podcast. How are you? I'm good, Tom. How are you? Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. I am excited. And, guys, backstory. So Jim Hahn, if you remember, came on the show. We talked about thought leader liaisons, which is a great episode.
He had made the introduction to Lindsay, and I'm excited to have her on. So, before we get into that, we do have a sponsor. It is time to register for this year's Fierce Pharma Engage conference. It actually used to be Mass West. Big fan of Mass West and Mass East. I'm gonna be there. It's gonna be an amazing event. It's a little different this year. So it's a much larger event where Fierce is actually having different tracks.
So they're gonna have pharma marketing, PR and communications, medical affairs, business development, and licensing. So it's gonna be broken out a little bit, but amazing content, amazing speakers. This is going to take place in San Diego, April Twenty Ninth through May 1. So for more information, go to fierce pharma engage twenty twenty five, and you could register. And, I look forward to seeing you there.
So, Lindsay, we're gonna talk about the power of nontraditional KOL engagement, which I think is gonna be an awesome conversation. To start, like, can can we like, can you define what nontraditional KOL engagement what that term actually means? Yeah. Absolutely. So so, Tom, what it means to me and and to my team is really leading from an HCP centric perspective or approach.
It's really peeling back the layers of what's happening in in the world of the HCP, understanding what are their opportunities, what are their challenges, what are the things they're facing on a daily basis, and really seeking to understand from a place of curiosity. It's as someone on my team says who I think is absolutely brilliant, she she describes it as beyond the transaction. You're really there to get to know them and to understand them. And so that's what it means to me.
So focus being on exclusively on them is what you're Yes. On their world, on what is happening from a a current trend perspective, what's happening from a future trend perspective in health care, in the health care ecosystem. Really, like, seeking to understand what what are their obstacles in their current environment. And how does that differ from what we might call so if that's the nontraditional, what would be the more standard way of KOL engagement?
Yeah. So the way that I look at it, especially if you're thinking about a traditional MSL type of engagement or an MSL type of interaction, it is typically aligned to the medical strategy, right, medical affairs strategy or the strategic imperatives. So it's a a situation where you're going in, you're often reacting to a question that the HCP has. You're you're looking for a a way to communicate from a perspective of scientific exchange.
You're going in with an objective that's pretty specific to something that they've either asked about, inquired about, told you that they have an interest in. You might be going in looking for an opportunity to generate some data with them or looking to fill some gaps if there's research gaps. So it's very, I would say, focused strategically on the medical affairs strategic imperatives. Well, it makes sense because MSLs are giving these strategic objectives, and that becomes the driver. Exactly.
Right. Exactly. And they almost go in with that, and and that kinda guides and leads them into that engagement and and the approach to that engagement. So what you're saying is not that you you obviously need to keep the strategic objectives front and center. You keep them in mind, but you go from the standpoint of the KOL needs first and then work back. Is is that is that a Yeah. And and and, Tom, so let me be very clear. Like, we need MSLs to do exactly what I just described.
We need them to go in and and deliver on the science and to have that scientific conversation, to deliver the data, to answer questions, or really allow the HCP to share their concerns, and then we back that up with data. So we we have to have that. I mean, that is a critical element of of of pharmaceutical engagement. Right? And we need those strong MSLs to be able to deliver on the science. But what I'm suggesting is that you can do both.
You can really, seek to understand what is happening in the world of the HCPs that we're serving and get to know them from a deeply human perspective, understand what makes them tick, and then also fill those needs through the strategic imperatives that you have to deliver on for the organization. You can do both, and it's not an either or.
Much of the work that my team has executed around came from ideas that happened from exchanges in the field because the TLL or the MSL or whoever was interfacing with that provider or health care professional really took the time to get to know what was important to them.
And they brought those ideas and innovation back to the team or back to the organization internally to see what internal stakeholders could partner with us to generate some new resources, to generate a new initiative, or collaborate with an HCP in a different way. And so you can do both, I guess, is my is my encouragement. Well and let's talk about why this is important. It sounds important. It sounds it sounds feasible, but I'd love to hear from you, and why you think this is so important.
Yeah. Well, one of the things that's happening in the current health care ecosystem is that health care providers are incredibly burnout. I've read statistics around moderate burnout is occurring in sixty percent of health care providers. That's that's exceptional. Yeah. And time is our most valuable currency.
And so in order to stay relevant, in order to really have a meaningful interaction with HCPs, it has to be with an understanding of what's important to them and delivering on in a way that is, you know, creating a a value add for them.
And so if you don't take the time to take a step back and get to know them, get to know what drives them, get to know why they went into medicine or into health care in in the first place, What is keeping them from fulfilling, you know, their their dream, if you will? How are they approaching their day? Is it is it really a way are they approaching their day from the perspective of what they thought when they went into health care? What are the obstacles?
And so when you take a step back and get to know people on that level, you can hear what's happening in their world, and you make yourself more relevant. You make your interaction more relevant, and you really create a meaningful dialogue and exchange that is on their terms. You're attuned to their needs. And that, I I think, is incredibly important in the current environment. Absolutely. Yeah. So we talked about the the what, and we talked about the why. Let's talk about the how.
So how how does this happen? What are some of the questions that MSLs should be asking KOLs in this nontraditional approach? Yeah. I think you can start by asking, know, what was it that drew you to health care? What was it that drew you to the particular specialty that you're currently practicing in? What keeps you up at night? What are the things that if you had more time in your day, what would you spend it doing within the scope of your of of your practice? What's your biggest frustration?
What what is providing you joy as you treat patients? What is it about treating patients that you really enjoy or this disease state that you really enjoy? What does success look like to you ultimately? And and, really, when you align on what's what is happening in their world, what is critical then is that you really take the time to actually listen. You're listening to how they're responding to you. You're listening with the perspective of, can I actually help?
Can I actually do something, bring some innovation to this HCP or to their practice or to the health care ecosystem so that I can actually help, that we can do something of meaningful difference? It's not just listening and asking questions and providing lip service. It's seeking solutions based on what you're hearing. You know, and and it's like you said, those questions are all about them, their needs, their problems, what's keeping them up at night. So, I mean, it makes total sense.
It's funny. I was at a I was doing a workshop recently, and and, one of the things that came up is, you know, if you're on an interview and they they ask you to sell them a pen could be any interview. It doesn't have to be a sales interview. It's just kind of a common thing. Yeah. And and it's like all the you know, obviously, all the questions that you would ask to uncover what that person would want in a pen. That's the whole strategy. But That's right.
This guy broke it down into he said, look. I'm gonna break this down into one question. What's the most important thing to you in a pen? And once, like, the light bulb went off, it's like, what's the most important thing to you? In really any situation, KOLs, what's the most important thing to you? Right. You have a one on one meeting with one of your your team members. What's the most important thing you wanna talk about?
Yeah. That really gets to the core of what it what is on that person's mind at that time. So I'm adding that question, but it didn't come from me. I actually learned it in a workshop, and I think it's amazing. And I want I've been using it a lot, so I just wanted to mention that. But how let's let's get back into, how how do you think an MSL can develop a strategy to personalize their communication and their approach for individual KOLs? Again, I I mean, to your point, it's very well taken, Tom.
It's it's understanding what's important to them. Right? And if if you take the time to understand what's important to them, then you can personalize your approach through your resources, through education, through, you know, really levering on everything that is available to the MSL that they can actually bring to the HCP around what they've identified as being important to them.
The other thing I think is is really important, as I mentioned, is if you uncover something that is important to them and there's something that's actionable in that that you can everything that my team has has really worked on or all of the initiatives that have come to the table through through this work is that it started with a spark of an idea through a discussion with an HCP. And it didn't just stop though. It wasn't just a dialogue. It wasn't lip service. It was, okay.
Let's think about how we can create solutions. Let's talk about how we can collaborate or develop resources or develop content or show up in a different way based on what you're telling me. And so I think it's really finding the internal stakeholders in your organization to help you to deliver on what you've identified as an innovative solution based on your conversation with your HCP because then they will realize that this is this is personal.
You are taking what you've learned from them, and you're actually solutioning around that, and you're delivering for them. And so it becomes very personal when you ask for their input, when you ask for their collaboration on something, when you when they join you in that process. And so they can do that in a few different ways.
One being, you know, maybe you for example, we just had a an advisory board within the oncology space around health care provider burnout, seeking to understand what is happening from the burnout perspective, specifically in oncology. And so many people were interested in participating in this topic because we were seeking to understand, but we were also looking for solutions to help them in the current environment.
And so when they realize that we're putting their insights into action, it becomes very personal to them, and we actually ask for their help along the way. So it's really a kind of joint effort to get to the heart of what's challenging them or what is, interfering with their ability to practice medicine in the way that they want, and we are coming to the table with a partnership to to really find a path forward. And that's what could be more personal than that. Yeah. It makes total sense.
The this this makes complete sense, and I'm sure knowing, the MSLs that are really good at this, anyone that hasn't been taking this approach is I I think is gonna see a big difference. But what would you say are some of the challenges in this approach? I think, Tom, if you're if you're approaching HCPs from this lens, again, it can't just be lip service. It can't be a bait and switch.
It can't be let's talk about all these things that are, you know, keeping you up at night or the things that are challenging you and, oh, by the way, now I wanna switch gears and talk about the things that are important to me. And so it really has to be a genuine curiosity, an opportunity to listen, and then an opportunity to act.
And I'm fortunate to work for an organization that actually invests in this type of work, that invests in above brand initiatives that actually allow for us to be, you know, seen in a different light. And it is I think what you the challenge that you run up against potentially is if your organization really doesn't have a big appetite appetite for this type of engagement or type of work.
And so you have to really have the courage to go internally, speak to leadership, talk about the why, tell them why this is important to the HCP, to the health care ecosystem, tell them that there is an opportunity here that will help set them and the organization apart. And and I really think that you have to have some some I I guess, courage is the word. Courage to go internally and say, this is important.
And if we do this, you know, there will be an impact, and there will be value to not only the HCP, but to our organization. I think this work takes time, Tom. It's not just something that happens overnight. It it really is something that is a marathon and not a sprint, and these initiatives often are are large projects that that take many years. And so we've actually created a full team out of this work. It's not this is not an MSL team, Tom.
This is a team in medical affairs that has really come from all different backgrounds. I've got a nurse practitioner on my team. I have a physician assistant on my team, and they actually are tasked tasked with creating educational resources for advanced practitioners in the neurology community. And it's a we have a portal that they've developed, and they created podcasts. They've created modules.
They've created a community where they can actually have advanced practitioners join, and and they network with each other. They they really have created a nice community. And so, again, it's not just, you know, listening to what they're saying. And in this case, the HCPs were or the advanced practitioners in their neurology space were telling us that they needed more education, that often they were coming into their practice environment without a whole lot of background on the disease state.
And so they needed a place to go where they could find a mentor, they could find content, they could find education, they could find community. And so we created that. And, again, it took, you know, a lot of initiative of people really showing the organization why this was important in order for them to invest in this work. And now we have over 250 advanced practitioners that are enrolled in the portal. And so really is a value add here.
It's something that is important and meaningful in the space, and it, again, sets the organization apart. But we had to have leadership that believed in this work, and, fortunately, we do. Yeah. No. It sounds like it. Congratulations. You guys are, you're trailblazers, and you guys are doing some amazing things. Thank you. We we like to think so. I'm very proud of this work. Yeah. No. It's awesome. Really proud of the organization.
So I always ask anytime I talk about KOL engagement, I always like to ask if there are any words of caution or guardrails as it relates to compliance. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a good question. So we wouldn't be able to do any of this work without our compliance and legal partners.
And and what I would encourage anyone to do if they have an idea, if they have a spark, if they've listened to their HCP and they wanna come to the table with an innovative resource or an approach, an initiative, a work stream, a pilot, if you will. I think what you really need to do is engage your compliance and legal counterparts, from the very beginning. Help have them help you create the path forward. I call them my compliance and legal partners because they're exactly that.
They're partners with me on this journey. They're partners with my team. They allow us to find the right way to move forward that, you know, keeps the integrity of what we're trying to do at its core, but also does it in a way that keeps the organization and the the work compliance. And that is incredibly important because we we really need to be thoughtful about that in this current landscape and environment that we're all working in.
Yeah. And would you say knowing that you've been in you know, you mentioned oncology. You also mentioned the burnout factor. Are are there groups or are there therapeutic areas that this nontraditional approach may not be best for, or are there certain KOLs that you may wanna take a different approach? I'm curious as to where this if if there's a, I don't know, if there's a group that may not be good for this. Yeah. It's a really good question, Tom.
So I in my experience so my team is across our enterprise, which means we work across all therapeutic areas in within the scope of BMD Sirono. So that's neurology, oncology, fertility, and HIV. And right now, we haven't found an area where this approach is not welcomed, and it's not creating a different type of engagement approach for the organization. I'm not I'm not sure.
I can't speak to other therapeutic areas because I just don't have the experience to say, for example, in cardiology or neurosurgery that this wouldn't be valuable. Right? But from what we've seen, this has really allowed us to engage in a different way. In fact, that we were at ACTRUM's, one of the congresses in the MS arena a couple of about a month ago, and one of the health care providers that I met with actually said no one else is talking about these types of things.
I've spent many many, you know, hours and meetings throughout the course of this meeting, and and and no one is talking about these these top kinds of topics. So, for example, we have another work stream around health equity and AI and really looking at can AI bridge the gap in vulnerable patient populations. And so we're just getting feedback from from different, you know, health care providers on that journey and on the work that we're doing.
We're in partnership with the Economist Impact Group on that work stream. And, you know, the the provider that we spoke to was like, you know, this is totally novel. This is completely different than what we're engaging in conversation around with any other pharmaceutical company. And, you know, you should be really proud of that because it makes me really lean in and wonder what is different about what you're doing and why why are you investing in this type of work?
And we are because, ultimately, our our mantra at EMV Sirono is as one for patients. And if we can, you know, if we can change the approach just a little bit so that we can ultimately serve patients better, then we're doing a service to everyone that we're engaging with. And so I I don't see an area where this if it's well thought out, if, again, we're listening, if we're really taking the time to seek from a place of curiosity, I don't see where this could have a shortcoming.
But, again, it has to be genuine, and it has to be followed with action. Mhmm. And how do you see this evolving? I mean, is this gonna be the new norm? Is this gonna be the way the wave of the future? I hope so. I I mean, I can only speak for EMV Sirono, and I know we're incredibly committed to this journey. We, again, have a vision to elevate humanity and spark discovery. And, you know, that is a real that's something we take very seriously.
We want to make sure that we're innovating, and this work is innovative. And I really welcome other organizations to enter into this space, enter into this journey because, you know, it will elevate. It'll raise the bar. It will help us to think differently, to think bigger. And so I I hope it's the wave of the future. I hope we continue to look for nontraditional ways to engage our HCPs and, again, create solutions that serve the whole health care ecosystem.
I think we we need this type of work that that we're in a we're in a tough time in our society, in the health care landscape, in the world. And if we can approach people from a deeply human perspective, really understanding what's happening in their world, in their day to day, I think we'll do a better job overall in serving both the health care providers that we serve and their patients. Yeah. And I wanna put my recruiter hat on for a second.
You know, I am a recruiter by day, podcaster by night. I think this approach is the way people should handle their interviews. I think one of the biggest mistakes I see with job seekers is they it's all about them. How does this company how is this company gonna be a good fit for me, and how is this job gonna be good for me? And it's not as much of what can I do for the this organization? How can I be valuable to this hiring manager?
How can I prove to them that I am a fit for this position, and I'm gonna be good for organization? So, it again, it goes into the same type of approach where you're focusing on the other person. Right. Right. So I I mean, I think it's the same concept. It is. It is. I mean, we're we're all I mean, if we don't understand what's important to those that we're interfacing with, then it's really a one-sided agenda that we're working from.
And so it's when it's all about you and it you're never gonna meet anyone else's needs or be relevant or valuable or, you know, create create meaning. And you have to have that kind of purpose as your backdrop. I think it's, you know, seeking to understand those around you, seeking to to really work from a place of, you know, how can I support you? How can we help to make things better in an incredibly complicated, you know, world and system?
I think the the beauty of it is is is there's so much more fulfillment in that. And I really think at the end of the day, I we joke on my team. We say, you know, we're not really working. This is not a job. We we are, you know, actually doing work that is so meaningful that doesn't feel like a job. I have a career. I I really enjoy what I do every day. I see the value in it.
I'm able to surround myself with incredibly thoughtful, caring people that work incredibly hard that are not afraid to to to block the system, if you will, to, you know, challenge the status quo and to you know, in this incredible world of disruption that we're all faced with every day, they're finding the possibility in it. And that to me is incredible.
And I think that if you could bring that to that perspective to an organization if you're interviewing and really talk about how you could show up differently in support of their mission, really think that you could set yourself apart. Totally. Yeah. I totally agree. I think that that's that's the separator a lot of times with candidates Right. With people that are really good at doing that. I completely agree. And and you see it. I'm actually preparing to interview for a for a role right now.
And and, you know, I'm looking for someone who can come to the table with me and have ideas and not be afraid to push boundaries and and, you know, in the face of a no, if you will, or I don't think we can do that or there's I don't know how to find a way. It's, you know, finding the way, finding the path forward, and showing the organization, showing the team that, you know, you're not afraid to to push boundaries because you understand the need so deeply that it becomes a mission for you.
Yep. Alright. So last question. Yeah. People are listening. Right? We're gonna get back to MSLs now. People are listening. They're like, this is great. Can't wait to try this. I'm gonna do this. Great advice. So what would you tell those folks? Like, where do they start? What advice do you have? Like, what what could you tell those folks that are ready to start doing more of this if they have it already? Yeah. I mean, just try it. Bring your heart to work.
You know, if you get to know your HCPs as human beings that they went into health care to care for people. They went into health care because they believe that they can make a difference, that they could, you know, change the course of a patient's life that has potentially a chronic disease or, you know, something that they're they're battling. And our health care providers are are struggling as well, and they're struggling in this current dynamic in this environment.
And and it really is it's incumbent upon us to to go in and and seek to understand and to see them as human beings and to genuinely hear them, to listen, and then to act. And so I I encourage anyone to take this type of approach, and and you'll find so much more joy in what you do because you can align yourself to the things that you know are important to someone else, and it's no longer just about you.
At the end of the day, we are we're really all seeking connection, and, you know, it that's not you will make yourself so much more relevant and so much more. You you'll you'll become a joy to interface with, and it's not just another MSL or rep or TLL or, you know, someone coming through the door to try to take their time that's already incredibly, you know, maxed. You'll be a relief in their day.
You'll be someone that they want to interface with because they're learning from you, and you're learning from them, and it's a partnership. So I I encourage anyone to try. Like, try just to bring their heart to work. I'll tell you what a quote to end this conversation. Bring your heart to work. Yeah. Love that. Awesome. So we're gonna leave it there. Lindsay, you're awesome. I appreciate you. This is a great conversation. And, as always, thank you guys for all your support.
Thank you for sharing the show and for, being so amazing. Couldn't do this show without you. And, if you got value in this, definitely tell your friends, and, we'll see you next time. Lindsey, thanks again. Thank you so much, Tom. It was a pleasure to be here. Good