#354 Nate Spearing's Journey from Special Forces to Custom Home Builder

And when something goes wrong, and you're literally thinking about, What could I have done to change this? And and you can think of some things that you didn't do, and it's particularly painful when you thought of the thing that you could have done, but you you rationalized yourself out of doing it, because it was the end of the day. I could have just gotten easier. That was easier. And for those of us that are pushing, that is what crushes you. Is when you go back through and you

think about I could have done this. I did it. Welcome back to the monocrossing podcast, guys. This is Nick schifr Today's guest Nathan spearing, who's been on the podcast before, and if you remember, he's lived quite a life defined by action, 14 years in Army Special Operations, 12 combat deployments to building a business and renovating historic

homes. He's faced everything from firefights to lawsuits along the way, and he's learned that risk, discipline and resilience are just as crucial in business as they are in combat. So we're gonna dive into how he's think rethinking profitability, how he's thinking about setting better client expectations and balancing speed with strategy. So it's packed with real world lessons for anyone that's running a business. So let's get into it. This podcast is brought to you

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create long, lasting wow factor in your homes. For more information, head over to Anderson windows.com/modern craftsman, by the way, guys, this week, we're gonna be at JLC March 28 and Anderson's gonna have a booth there, booth number 403, DM us. We'll give you a complimentary pass. You can also just enter see us. 403, 2025, in check out for registration, and that pass will be on us. We're also gonna be doing a live podcast on Friday, March 28 from three to 4pm make sure you come

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business. So we created the questionnaire that we sent you, and you are one of the first people that have part taken in the questionnaire. I think we have three so far. And I like went through your questionnaire and was like, honestly, like, we don't need anything else. This is amazing. So thanks for filling that out.

I just want to add to that. Yeah, I agree. Thank you. But I do want to open this podcast with something that I read in that, and we don't have to go in any particular order, but I read, I've read it over and over and over, and I'm like, man, like that is probably one of the most relatable things that anyone listening to this podcast can relate to. Yeah. And there's this line that you fill in saying, lying awake at night wondering if I'm crazy or should just go get a job working for

somebody else is a reoccurring battle. And a friend recently told me, never dig up and doubt what you planted in faith. And I've read that probably a half a dozen times. I'm like, it's, it is. I think the number one thing people in this industry constantly question them within themselves. We talked, touched on it last time we talked, I think too, but just that feeling that you're by yourself, yeah, and and that you're the only one that's an idiot laying awake in bed at

night. And why the heck are you? Why do you gotta be so different than everybody else? I mean, obviously there are unique qualities to how we're all implementing things in this industry, because we, we are the only one of us doing it. So it's going to be done just by the way that we do it. But the feelings that you get that I think are very similar flavor, or at least

rhyme with each other's feelings. And I, you know, I just, I think that's my goal, and I really get that with the modern craftsman too, is to give people the ability to queue up an episode and them just be like, Okay, I'm not crazy. Stop,

stop whining. Get to work, you know. And I don't know that's that was, that's what I get almost every time I turn it on, turn on the podcast, it's like, and that's why this particular medium is is doing so well, is because you get to sit and be with people, almost like you're in the room with them, the good ones, yeah, and come away ready for life. And that's how we are

designed as human beings. It's relational. It's being in community, having people that understand what we're going through and or at least acknowledge it, you know, yeah, I think that's probably one of the things. Like, when you're when your wife says, I see what's going on, I'm proud of

you, or good job, or, you know, this sucks. It's helpful to hear that from somebody else during the process and so, and that's, that's why getting the summit is a good idea, I think too, is the ability to just be in the room with a bunch of people and be like, okay, trade shows. And then I think all of you have relationships locally with different people too, and it's not competitive when you're trying to be at our level. Because, yeah, so so many people aren't willing to do what we're

willing to do, or the do the details. So anyway, and I think, I think a lot of people lose sight of that the further removed you are from either starting your business or struggling through some of those, those growing pains of the formative years, I think that you forget how helpful that can be just to understand, like you lose your confidence for a

second, and it takes a very long time to build it back up. And I think when you're first starting out in business, or you're struggling in some aspect, like every move that you make, you question. So I think that people lose sight of that. And it can be, I think a lot of times it happens more so at the beginning

stages of business, but it can happen to anyone. It can happen five years in 10 years, and you can be in business for 40 years and just have a couple of shit jobs that you start questioning everything that you've ever done. So I think it is, it is good to have that background and in that network of people to kind of stand beside you and say, Hey, we've been there as well. I know also that we had you on the podcast, I don't know a couple of months ago at this point, but just the rundown that

you provided for your background. Oldest of seven kids, homeschooled for your entire education, 14 years, Army, special operations, Ranger to Special Forces. 12 combat deployments, Purple Heart, Bronze Star, valor, five kids. You've been married for 19 years. Started your business in 2016 and I think that this is important. You said you've been distracted for for most of those years, doing consulting and

contracting work within that military security space. That's a lot, that's a lot, that's a lot packed in there, and like very impressive, and I there's a lot that I want to talk about, and a lot that I think shapes who you are and what you do and where your business is. But that's definitely you have your hands full, and you've, you've lived a lot, obviously, in your life so far, yeah, and I, you know that's that that is kind of to date to.

But there's also kind of businesses plural. In some ways, I'm aggressively trying to be doing just one business. I think, yeah, it's informative. You hear people, those of us that are trying to do one business, well, know what that actually takes and it's usually people that start off early that think saying you have multiple businesses as a brag, because it's kind of like saying you're going to start a business. It's like, I'm going to start a business, I'm going to do this,

I'm going to do that, or I got a couple things. And so, you know, I share that I have multiple things, but I have been realizing, I think probably are, are at similar places, as far as, like, age and wise, realizing, like, I don't have an opportunity to do all these things that I wanted to do. Yeah, and and you kind of started some of that stuff down those lines, and you're just like, No, that's not what I want to be remembered for, necessarily, even though I could

do it. And that's, I think, been a curse as being kind of a generalist in the military and the Special Forces, kind of background you get dropped off and kind of build up from scratch in a location that there's not a lot of support, and there's just a kind of a varied skill set that you have to employ, and it can be a curse, because you actually

enjoyed that aspect of it too. There was, you know, bags of cash and trying to get septic tanks put in for your your army that you're trying to create from scratch in North Africa, or whatever, you know. So it's like being a general contractor in North Africa. I've done that, you know, and tried to do that. And so there's just this enjoyment of a lot of things, but then realizing, like, I actually enjoy a narrower set of this stuff, and it comes at a detriment if I have, if I'm

distracted, if I have all these other things. So I'm trying to ask, I mean, that's a question that we discussed on the questionnaire, like, if you could do anything. And so that's, that's something that I think about. I use my wife as a sounding board. And you know, that's realizing that our kid,

my kids, are getting older. I have a 16 year old. Somebody just turned 16, and just realizing how quickly the I got out of the military in 2016 and started the business, realizing how quickly that just newly turned seven, eight year old is now 16, and having that kind of optic of how fast that's felt, and the fact that he's potentially going to be launching and doing something, and I'm not going to be around, or he's not going to be around as much, so there's time to

influence him for a limited time, and then I have kids stacked up behind that too. And so that's been a big metric for me, is, am I is with these clients too? And you guys are doing a huge push on the getting the right clients. That's just a huge thing that took me so long to really and I'm enjoying going through all the emails and refreshing on because that that can change. One client can change. Like I thought that this

client was ideal. These are some things, and you can get more narrowed in you can use the data say, okay, they said this in pre con that led to this terrible thing in construction. If they say that out loud again, you know, or I'm gonna that's, that's a little kind of mental tally as you're going through

pre con. To be like, these are warning signs we got to over communicate in these areas to make sure I don't know, it's just that's the like I'm working with this client, and I can't be with my my kids during this time because I'm here, although we are reworking a lot of the business stuff. And I think I mentioned that about fewer jobs and more. Me on to on the job site more often, with my kids taking an active role in it too.

So yeah, that you have, like life experience, that there's a very small percentage of people that have, even I'm looking at right now, like your conversation or your answer about risk, risk tolerance, and that's something that is just like you and I. You and Nick are probably closer for different reasons, but I just don't have like, a ton of risk tolerance. And the reason for your risk tolerance, which you're basically saying that you

have a background of getting, like, literally shot at. I think that that's a very unique perspective that not many people have, so very, very interesting too, because that's what even some, like, friends of mine, are like, Dude, why are you doing construction, you know? Like, yeah, you literally could do, like, jocko's business model and make a ton of money doing that, you know, and that, and I guess that's kind of been the struggle, is, I actually like the tangibleness of building

stuff in real life, sure. And that's, you know, like the coaching self looking ice cream cone kind of thing, like doing it in real life, is, is the looking ice cream cone? Yeah? Like, I mean, that's what all, you know, start an online business, teaching people to start an online business, yeah, like, there's nothing to that. You've not done any and so for sure. Like, that's, I guess, the other side of it is, like being in a bathroom or or like trying to lay things out with some of

these clients. Like, I definitely have had those moments where I was like, do you understand? Like, who's in this room with you and what we're doing right now? Like, this is ridiculous, like, and you can't use special ops like judo, chop them and whatever, even that intensity to be like, let's execute already.

Well, that's, that's what I want to get at, is like in that, you know, you talk about how you go on to say, like most people freeze when they don't have all the answers, and you act you, and you trust your gut, you make a decision, you just as you go. And I think that is, you know, it's something that I feel like I talk a lot about this. This morning I was on site, and one of my guys was just have, obviously having a tough day, and that was like, something wrong, like, you know, like,

what's, what's going on? Kind of prying and and another trade was standing in the room, and he looked at me, goes, Do you ever have bad days? Because I feel like you don't. And I'm like, yeah, just no one knows about them. And I kind of said it, like, as a smart ass, but I was like, No, you know, my I try to balance my my mindset around the fact that, you know, and I've said this before, like, none of this shit really matters. Like, at the end of the day, I die, my chips go back in the middle,

someone else collects my chips, plays the next game, right? And, but at the same time it's like, you know, I understand that there's like you have to, you still have to. That doesn't mean you act like an idiot, like you still make educated decisions and try to, you know, navigate your way through. But I think that and the conversation went on to, I have a hard time understanding the extreme opposite of me, which I Tyler,

you are not. But the, in my opinion, the extreme opposite is the the person that just wakes up and just wastes life away, like the the person that thinks a w2 job is w2 job or whatever, like, just, like, about the guy that literally wakes up and does nothing, oh yeah, he's got such a great gig. No, I don't think he thinks anything like, exists in life and has no,

like, no, yeah. Not like, like, doesn't, doesn't make $1 like just the fact that you are on this planet and you choose to live a life of nothing is so insane to me well, and I think Mike Rowe talked about, I don't know if it was with y'all or on his social Media, about how many men aren't working at all, and and there is a, like a boomer wealth that exists to just be on basically outpatient financial care, I

think, is what. And you're okay with that, and you're not actually making any difference in the world, and you're and we need it, you know, you know, all industry like the trades, need people that are willing to do something and make something

happen in real life. And if you make, I mean, ultimately you make, that's, I think, one of the things that's really frustrating about it, and ultimately the goal is to get, like, my wife and I have a tremendous amount of equity sitting in real estate, and we always laugh about how we can't spend it without, you know, getting access. But we're getting pretty close to having a pretty good chunk of money that we're going to be able to that's ours. We don't have to ask

people. And that's, I think, front of one of the frustrating things about about this business is how much it takes to make a decision. A lot of times, there's somebody in the in the chain, and it reminds me of the government still. I mean, literally, we're trying to find a. Sample at the showroom today, and those like, well, so and so knows. And I'm like, well, she at lunch right now? No, we're actually doing a lunch and learn kind of thing. And I'm like, so she's in the building. Could you

text her, you know? And and he was like, Oh yeah, I'll text her, but she might not have her from like, dude, the only way you get through lunch and learns is with your phone, you're doing something else while somebody's talking for an hour. She's got her fun like, immediately she comes downstairs, because also she's like, client, I get to get out of this to go actually help

a customer. And she comes down. She gets to skip the rest of the lunch and learn, and she's looking, you know, but for I reflect on that, and I'm like, Why did I have to tell a guy in the showroom to text a gal that knows the answer to something that we're looking for, to buy a $60,000 window package, you know? Like, it's, it's like, we this is, this is the last thing

we have, the quote. We're just trying to verify one thing here now in the actually, and that's, I guess the thing where I why I like the team being small, and I liked it being me with a bag of cash in North Africa, is because I could literally go into this city and I could, with money, make something happen. Money and initiative make something happen. But yeah, you said in the military that there was a long planning process, and that's something you didn't like about it, right?

And like what you said that a lot of your favorite missions

were where you just had to act on whatever was going on. Can you, like, dive into that a little bit more the difference between, like, just how you prefer to jump into action rather than have to go through all of these approval process and get this person to sign off this, to be able to do it like, why do you succeed at a higher level when you are able to just jump into action and that, that could be based on your military career and a lot of your past?

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, I guess there's, there's a deliberate mission that we would do that is we, we have, we're we have a specific building that we're going to hit, and we know, for whatever reason, that the target is in that building, and we have pattern of life, and we're going to hit that specific Spa on the ground. So the variables for where we're going are, in a sense, fixed, and so we're planning to hit that building to who's going to how are we going to get to it? Who's

going to approach it from which side? A lot of times, one, one particular deployment. I was on a climbing team with the Rangers, so we would literally try to get on top of the building. And the Iraq has cupolas and sleeping porches because they don't have air conditioning as much. So you'd be out on the roof. On the summer nights, they'd sleep on the roof because that's the most climate tolerable. And so there'd be doors to get in. And so we blast the door and come

down from the top. And so we would pick where we're going to climb, we're going to but for me, they, like Mike Tyson says, you know, everybody is everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth or something like that. And there's the military axiom is the best laid plans don't survive first contact with the enemy. And so I would if, if we landed in, you know, helicopters and moved up to the building and the bad guy jumped the fence and ran down the street, everything we

planned is obsolete now he's running down the street. And so now we're falling back to individual skills that combine to become a platoon element of rangers. So they have mission essential tasks, or whatever the and sold your tasks that we're good at. So everybody's training the ready up, which is pick your rifle up and shoot and make a shot at seven meters or five meters or whatever, all these different drills that you do

over and over and over and over and over and over again. So you know, everybody that's on this mission with me has a certain level of proficiency at shooting. There are physical fitnesses, whatever, and now we're using all those different individual skills corporately to go get this guy that ran down the street, and the plan is thrown away. And so that always drove me nuts, because we would plan like exhaustively about

that. And then. There's time sensitive targets where they're moving, and you only have a certain amount of time to get them. For some reason, we got to hit them if it's daylight. And so those are my favorite is, hey, we got them. For some reason we're, you know, we see them on the predator, or

whatever, we got to go get them. And so it's like no time to plan, get your kid on, get in the helicopter and go and and, and I'm with a team, either Rangers or special forces, and we, we're all good at the individual stuff, and everybody's driven to be individually good, and we're super competitive with each other. I mean, we're shooting, shooting certain strings of shooting all the time, and

you're not having to push anybody to be good. And I think that's that's you encounter that so much in this industry, is that there are so many of the people on the other end of the spectrum, the the truck driver, we need them all. But that's I say that in my mind, I think I said that today I'm trying to think about what, what the particular trade was. Oh, my wife and I, we have spray foam in our house, and there's spray foam all over the sub floor in some of these spots, you know.

And I just said, like, the guy that puts on a Tyvek suit and crawls up in an attic and sprays this stuff and does it every single day. I need him for my house, but he doesn't care that he got spray foam all over the place, on on our curved steel doors that are, you know, they plastic the doors, but they didn't get the casing or whatever it's like I I cannot believe that I have to push this person I gotta be, and that's as a as a contractor, you're doing that, or as the boss, you're

doing that all the time. You're going around and you're trying to get people. And that's probably what you're talking about, Nick, that you have a guy that is working for you, and if he was gonna be this, the CEO of Ns builders, and be pushing the industry on modern craftsmen, all this kind of stuff. He's gonna have a different and that's not negative on him. He's not there yet. Maybe, like he's gonna get there, you know, but where he is right now in life, uh, he's, he's, he's, he's got

limiting beliefs, he's got stuff going on at home. And I guess that's also the thing that I like about general contracting, and how I think the military improved, is we would always come up against host nation, you know, Afghanis, the North African wood cutter that I need to buy wood, from to to, you know, light the fire and feed these guys that were training whatever. Where are you in life? And understand where you are in

the hierarchy. Because the military has hierarchies, like wearing it on your on your sleeve, who outranks who you know, in a sense, the rank is, that more than the position, in a sense, although I did get in the point where I didn't look like other military people. I had a beard, I had dress different. I made all these generals and all these colonels, they hated me because I was so undisciplined in my appearance compared to their shaving and all that kind of stuff.

What? So hold on, why? Well, because, why were you different? Like, well, why? Because I'm answer that first. Well, you, when you, when I joined the army, I went to, so you do infantry basic training, and then you go to Airborne School, and then I went to rip, which is a ranger indoctrination program, which is a three weeks where they just basically crush you and try to make you quit. So everybody that didn't really have the drive to become an Airborne Ranger quit during that

three weeks. And for me, I was, like, three weeks, like you can as long as you don't, like, cut my my arm off, or something like that. Like, I can do anything for three weeks. Is it mental and physical? Yes, yeah. I think it's, I think it's mostly at that point. It will. We can get talked about Special Forces side

of stuff too, after but at that point is mostly physical. Mostly physical because, I mean, they're trying to make physical become mental, and that's essentially the only way to get through it at that point, when it gets that bad, they were like, your physical strength would be nothing at that point, and it's all in your head well. And that's, and that's essentially like going through infantry basic training and airborne. Is, is, is difficult.

More difficult than if you're going to be a cook, maybe, or whatever, because they you're going to be an actual like a shooter, no matter where you end up in the army, you're, you're going to have a gun and be closing with the enemy, essentially, this skill, right? So there's a certain level of difficulty. There an airborne school. There's also risk, like I'm. Jumping out of this airplane, like, and relatively low altitudes, like, going fast. So there's some scary mental

stuff there. But then the physical even then they're like, we're gonna keep smoking you which is what they call when, like, making you do push ups, or, you know, until 10 and you could quit, you know, and or until half of you are gone, like, like, all night long, like, whatever, like, it's going to be. And I, for me, I think that the perception that becomes mental because you're like, this isn't going to stop, literally, isn't going to stop until so, like, probably none of these

guys around here are going to quit. And so I, I'm never gonna get out of this. Because the only like, and that's people started to think, I gotta quit if this is gonna stop, like, that's the only way for me to get out of this. And I was thinking, there's 150 people here, and we only got to get 10

people to quit. Like, I know that I'm tougher than at least 10 of these guys, like and, and even just with the runs, like, just understanding, and that's, I guess maybe where the mental toughness in it comes into it is I'm able to think about this at a bigger level. I think you are all of you are able to think about how you take the risk. It's like, I can see the end state that gets achieved. And if it doesn't, like, all right, you know, like, I tried and I'm now, I'm better, and I'm gonna do it

faster next time. You know, because none that we talked about last time, none of us are gonna barring some crazy, like, safety kind of stuff like, this isn't life and death. This is bankruptcy, you know, like that and that, that is for me. I said on the questionnaire, talked about it like that was the hardest thing was for me to transition and be like, Okay, this actually isn't as bad as getting shot at. Hey guys, real quick break from the podcast. Make sure you head over

to monterson.co sign up for our newsletter. Not only are we sending out weekly emails about every episode, but you're also going to get some behind the scenes emails between Tyler and I, what's going on in our real, real life, even business and sometimes personal. And then, of course, all the tangible stuff that we're putting together to help you run a more profitable business and have more time, or have more free time with your

family. Back to the podcast. One thing I appreciate you is like you're able to connect everything that you've done in life. But I want to go back to my question, because the the question about, why did you grow a beard and kind of fall out of

the what is quote, like the norm? Well, I think that that becomes our uniform, in a sense, I guess the uniform is you have to look at me and know that I'm special, because nothing says I'm special when you're around 100,000 soldiers in Bagram Airfield, and you go into the chow hall with a beard, like, and you're not a contra, or you're wearing a military style uniform, and you go into the con chow hall, where there's 30,000 people are eating, you know, whatever. It's

massive. Like these, these bases are literally cities, and they see you, and they're like, That guy isn't being made to shave by his sergeant. And it's also recruiting in a sense, like if you got a rep, if you're a rebel, like when I was in Ranger Battalion, I had to get a new haircut every Sunday night, if it was a day old haircut, then we got crushed. And they would, literally, 6am in the morning, they would do an inspection, haircut inspection, and they would open rank smart so we'd be

in formation. They'd have us all step out where they could walk down, and they would look at every every one of our backup, we had high end tights, and they were and they would, they were trying to find who had their buddy cut their hair at 2am while they were drunk before the formation, and they'd be like and then they would just crush you, because that was ever and the rest of the army actually had longer hair, and that was

our uniform was crisp, high and tight. Our uniforms were starched, our bit, our boots were spit shined, and you could tell that's a ranger going into the chow hall, going into wherever, like we look differently. And I think that's be you, your uniform becomes something that's different. But at the same time, it's in the face of this, this really like

stick in the mud kind of boss. But it's also like, you want to drop me in to the middle of nowhere and figure this out, like I need to have autonomy, and it's building like a cultural so there it's still. And I, I think I mentioned the My, my, my sergeant major saw me when I'm still in the same area, and his I was his wife. And he's like, you have the cleanest hair? Because I, even where I was in Special Forces, I pushed

the hair way more and, and, and I would get in trouble. Even though we're allowed to have longer hair, they'd be like, what in this particular sergeant major was like, What is that on top of your head, you know? And why was it so important for you, though, to stick out you said, like, there's nothing that makes you know everyone recognize how special that person is. Like what, I guess that is

pride. It's pride in what you was it was it basically like, because you would think that most people who were going to become a ranger like and to be elite within the Army, would want to like you earned the appearance of a standard Ranger was it was like you then growing your hair out and growing a beard, just essentially pushing you even further where it's like, I don't necessarily Need to look like

this? Or I'm already in this position, I can do whatever I want at this point to to continue to be different and not necessarily fit the stereotypical mold. Yeah, I think for for a ranger growing his hair out longer, it's like you I got made by the government to get a brand new haircut every Sunday night for four years. You know, I'm not

going to get a haircut for a year now. You know, like, and I think that that's, in some sense, is kind of like, is, is the guts to do, to try to push the boundary to go after and and even understanding like this particular boss is, is more scrutinizing of hair, like, I don't want to, like, stick it to the man, kind of like, that's essentially what, what starting your own business is, is in at a fundamental level is kind of saying, I think this can be done differently than what you're

doing, and I want to, I want to take a stab at this. And that's what leaving the military. And I think that the the side that hurts, and I said this in like the pre interview the questionnaire, is realizing that all that kind of rebellious side of me and the go, you know, wing it and hit the ground running, like I don't have the same people to the right and left of me that I used to I actually have to plan. I can't just call

you. Can pull stuff really quickly, pull it off. But being able to call and and make an audible on something and pull it and make it happen quickly can't be done in the construction industry with all the different players that are involved in this. And so having to personally develop myself to be more and realize the plan that used to not so much of this plan goes sideways, I guess, in construction, like, it's not like you plan for this house, and then the client says, oh,

let's just do that same thing, but the house is Different. Like there's fixed variables, and acknowledging that planning and being disciplined in that way, and then that nobody else is going to do it. So that's, I think the thing that that gets you sloppy in the military is as as special as you thought you were, and as there is a ton of stuff, the US government is behind you and doing all the things to make you be able to do

this very narrow spectrum of the job. Somebody's bringing the fuel, somebody is maintaining the aircraft, somebody is doing the contract to buy the bullets, and bringing the bullets to the base. And you literally just they're there. They're in a they're in a Conex. The food is all there. It's all being orchestrated by somebody else, and so I get to be very specialized at conducting raids now, as a business owner, all that's gone, and it's all my job, and realizing that I sucked

at that, like, I was really good at doing a couple things. Now I have a business. And also, you know, early on, having to take the ownership I listened to. I couldn't listen to all of Extreme Ownership. I know that's going to hurt Nick a little bit, but I was just like. I was like, I can't take this much Navy SEAL awesomeness, you know, whatever it's, because it's a different like branch, yeah,

it's a different culture, very much. And there's a very much a seals versus the time that I the time that I turn it off and I. Think we talked about, I think Jocko is the real deal. There's several, like, seals out there the real deal, and that are are executing and doing awesome things. But he was like, I shot, he like, said something about shooting a guy two shot center

mass. And I was kind of like, okay, Jocko, did you go down to the end of the street in that firefight, and look at them and confirm that both of them hit like center mass, you know, like you like this, and it's and that. But I also got the point, and it was, it is a pivotal part of my and I can pay, you know, give credit is I realized that like the vignette that he used, and he actually talks about special forces and army guys, special forces. And he pokes at some guys not developing younger

guys. And although I always like they will talk about, hey, you go on from Rangers, special force. You forget where you came from, and don't you come back. And so I was definitely like, I'm not going to be that guy that forgot where he came from. And we were at actually had an opportunity to be, you know, when I had made it into special forces, and we were at the same base as my Ranger platoon. So like, the younger guys, the guys that I was the boss of, were the boss now, like the big boss over

everybody. So all the privates, so, like, you have gravitas there, they're, like, he was my squad leader. And they had just lost some guys in combat. So I was able to say, hey, guys in 2005 we lost this guy. We lost and they knew these names. Like you have to remember these guys, memorize their names and know when they died, and they would quiz you and sergeants to smoke

you like, what day did he die? And what and like, there's this lineage and so going back and talking to them, but Jocko talked about he framed business and he framed ownership in a vernacular that I understood, and I realized that I was blaming even though I was good at owning stuff, I was not

owning everything. As a business owner, I was not I was still in the mindset of that I could blame the person that was supposed to bring the ammo I can blame like I was able in the government, and even at performing at a high level, I was able to blame other people, oh State Department, oh the general, oh this guy. And you get into that where you are responsible for this much and and the very narrow amount, and then now you're responsible for everything, and you can't blame

anybody else. And I did try for the first couple years, try this, oh, from the Extreme Ownership side, I think that's the the, as you say, the vignette that people have a hard time really understanding. And it's like, well, you know, it's not always my fault, like there's things that are outside of my control, that someone's gonna do something that I have no control over, and I and I've always just been, I've always disagree with

that. It's like, it's not that you have control over someone else but you, and it's not that you have to accept the fact that the only reason that this happened was because of me. That's not the point of the reference. The point of the reference is for you to look internally and understand, what could I have done differently in my control. And I think that that, like, that was something I mean for me, like, I think a lot of people read that book and were changed in the way that

they thought about things in a lot of different ways. And I think for me, you know, that has brought me peace in the sense like, you know, in what I what I go through in the business, in business, in friendships and relationships, you know, I think I practice this in my marriage, though, I think my wife might disagree, but it's something that I'm constantly

internalizing. You know, I say it brings me peace, but at the same time, like I know that a lot of times I it's to my own detriment, and it brings me a lot of anxiety, of of what I do, you know, in my life, and the considerations I've made in terms of, like, why I am who I am, and why I have what I have and what I do, you know, and what I do, but the the mindset, you know, I guess this is the difference Between like, you know, maybe you're saying, like the Navy Seals and the, you

know, Special Ops is, you know, that uniqueness. Well, I guess you said it earlier. It's like, sometimes to be different is to all be the same, you know. And I think that that has all. It's just been really powerful. I Because, going back to my question earlier, like, I understand how, you know, the only guy walking in the the, you know, the the mess hall with a beard, like, yeah, you're gonna stick out and everyone's gonna

wonder. Like, I mean, especially when you're a ranger at that point, yeah, it's like, totally anyone is supposed to be clean shaven and have a fresh haircut, it's them. But I mean, why, like, Why did is this, is that mentality something that was bred into you just through your experience in the military? Because it seems that if you wanted to rebel, the military probably was not the correct career path for you, right? Yeah, so like when you went into

the military, what like? What did you envision? Did you go in thinking that you wanted to be a ranger? Like when, when you were 18 years old, 17 years old, wanting to enlist? What did you envision your career looking like? Yeah, I wanted to. I wanted to do. I wanted. I was deeply moved by September 11, yeah. How old are you? I am 41 I was like, Yeah, I was a sophomore and like, I know a lot of my

buddies. I had a few buddies who went active infantry in the Marine Corps, and it was because of 911 Yeah, I we actually had a senior trip planned to Manhattan for September of 2001 and so we were, We were literally at Ground Zero, I think September 26 or whatever, we actually thought about canceling the senior trip. And, and we were homeschooled, but we still had other families we were networked with. So there was 26 kids in my class, and we were

planning on going there. And, and Rudy Giuliani was the mayor. He's like, if you want to help New York, you guys need to come and spend money. Because the it was an economic economically crushed the city because nobody was it shut things down. So all these businesses needed it. So we basically were talking about canceling, and then that came out. So the parents kind of got together. We're like, No, we're still going to do it like that.

They actually asked us to come trips on we're going. And I can remember being down there. And literally, I mean all the the steel coming out of the ground that's ash on everything. It was smoking still, like, still smoking down downtown. And, and one of the dad, like, I was staring at it, and just in one of the dads, like, you okay? And, and I was like, like, Yeah, I'm okay, but like, No, I'm not okay. Like, this is ridiculous.

You know, did you know at that point it wasn't necessarily like, I am gonna go and put a bullet in bin Laden's head for this I'm so mad. Like, it wasn't that formed, but it was like, the what I'm feeling, I can do something about this right now, and so one of my people I was going to church with was like, Rangers are doing all the fighting. Just go be a ranger.

So I really even notice know what was going on, except for I got that little piece of advice, and I still am super grateful, because from Rangers, I got the discipline, I got the haircuts. I got the basic like knowledge. It was incredibly rigorous. We built, built the foundation of discipline. And the in the foundation and the tools for building discipline were haircut every Sunday night, spit shine your boots like the the NCOs

were on you all the time. And there was pride. And it was, you know, we, these are the guys that have died, and this is, and the, the actual I joined the military, I think, combination of september 11, but then Black Hawk Down came out, I think, a little bit after that. And so I had Black Hawk Down, and I actually went to the company that was in Black Hawk Down. Like, the actual guys that got killed in Black Hawk Down, their

pictures are on the wall in our company headquarters. Like, how to memorize their names and stuff as a private and and so, like, I can do something about this, tangibly, do something about this that I'm feeling. And then literally, like, as I progressed was like, I still feel like I could do more. I still feel like that I could I, you know, I'm, I was, I've talked about was I was number one or two, PT score in our company. So it's 200 guys. I have top, you know, PT score.

I'm always racing with this other guy in the platoon, our platoon sergeants are putting us against each other or whatever, but then still feeling like, even though I'm in the Rangers, like I'm top in the Rangers, but I don't even feel like I'm as good as I could be, like, I think that there's more. And so that's where you have the opportunity to go to selection

and push yourself even more and get more skills. And. And and there go through a whole nother round of people getting cut and not making it, and getting better training and more money to to have for training and better equipment and stuff so that that excellence, and then just that Corporate Excellence that's there. Like you're in the ranks with guys. You're running next to them, you're compete, you're competing. But then there's, there's groups of you that are making it and passing

something that everybody else didn't. And I we talked about that, how businesses is very solitary, so there's not that immediate feedback, unless you get with peers and you're like, okay, and then, but also, there's that, you know, break you talked about finding out what Brad did versus what his his revenue was that particular year, and then being like, Oh, I could do more. And like, having these metrics of of competition and but it's not, you know, like, like, you know the deal.

It's not like, just because that particular number you have to have it, it's like, no, this is says that I provided this level of value. That doesn't say that, like, it's not for that. Like, it's what does that mean that I did this build? What does that mean that I got that extra money? It means that I'm better, like, it means that I did a higher level. If I can sell this job to somebody and they're happily paying me for it, then, you know, and they're paying more than the guy down the

block. Or I beat a guy that was cheaper, like, and they said, like, you were more expensive, but we're still going with you, like, because we believe you're essentially there. That's that vote your elite amongst, uh, your peers. You're the elite guy. You're the guy that I'm hiring instead of the other

other person. Um, how much, how much do you think like, either whether it's through business or even in the military, like your drive to move forward was more so, like this desire to be elite, versus a desire to prove people either wrong or that you can do it.

Like was this? Was this all internal decision? Like, I just, I feel that I haven't reached my full potential, or was some of this based on like, I want to prove to somebody that either they're wrong or I can do something that they think that I cannot.

My natural motivation is is internally driven, but there have been times that there's been external motivators that have really enhanced that, yeah, and and so I think that naturally, I'm not screw you, yeah, and I can show you, but if I can harness some of that sometimes, like one particular time when I left the rangers to go to the Special Forces selection. My platoon sergeant told me, You better make it, because you don't have a job when you come back, you know?

And that was tremendous. I was, I was at the end of my initial enlistment when I went. So if I came back and he screwed me over, I could just got out and gone to college or done whatever. So it's like, if he screws me over, when I get back, like I'm go, I think I went in September, and my contract for the army was up in February. So it's like, I can suck up him

being a jerk to me or me whatever. Like they can't send me to another unit or whatever that I'll hate, because I'll be so close to getting out and but I did have that moment where I was like, maybe I'll just get out, like, in the middle of selection, by myself. So, like a lot of a lot of it, ultimately, you have to, I think you have to have to get to the highest level, you have to have an internal, really high internal

thing. I think that there can be particular times that, you know, and I know, like, I think Elon Musk, like, launched a big cube of cheese into orbit because one particular dude was, like, you know, some dude made some comment about, like, you know, all, I'll give him all the cheese or whatever. And he's just literally, like, you know, took an opportunity to, like, like, put this cheese up in orbit and send the, you know,

the live stream to this dude or whatever. Like, there's definitely those times where it's, like, money could probably be better spent. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's so like, there's, I can look back on times that I've harnessed that, and it's been tremendous motivator. But ultimately, I think that that's an external thing that can only get you so far. Yeah, it's not gonna the comparing. And that's, I think, if you're literally motivated. About the external stuff. You're not laying awake

at night uneasy about, I think you're you're you. And what I think, probably going back to Extreme Ownership, is when you when you read that, and when something goes wrong, and you're literally thinking about, What could I have done to change this? And and you can think of some things that you didn't do, and it's particularly painful when you thought of the thing that you could have done, but you you rationalized yourself out of doing it because it was the end of the day. I could have

just done it was easier. That was easier. And so when, and for those of us that are pushing that like that is what crushes you, is, yeah, when you go back through and you think about, I could have done this, I could have did it, but it's with anything like in, you know, the conversation I had this morning, like we were talking about the fact that, you know, it's supposed this is for me. Like, when I say supposed to be, like, this is my, my, my outlook. It's supposed to be

hard. Like, what I'm doing is supposed to be hard, and there and when I'm faced with a challenge, like, there is an easy way. One something I could do is I could just not do it. I could just give up. I could just let it fit, fail, and let everyone down, and at the end of the day, who gives a shit? Because I'm gonna die, but it's like, but that for me, like, that's not like, that's not an answer. Like, I'm not looking for the like. I want the result. I want the result that seems

like it's impossible. Everyone says you can't do that, or that's too hard, or that's that's too much risk, and it's like, based on who, based on what, based on I the way that you would approach it, sure, like the way you would approach it, based on what I know about you, you'd half ass it, you'd give up 10% of it. You you would, you would only do so many things, but you'd make a handful of compromises. And then, hey, See, I told you, it failed. It's like, but you didn't do it the

way that I said. I want to do it. Yeah, and I think that from from my Outlook to I have an eternal Outlook. I'm a very religious guy. My faith is formative. It's what, what gave me the confidence to, you know, fight on the battlefield is the actual belief that my time here on Earth is numbered, and there's only a certain amount of days, and there's a divine orchestration of these events.

And so if it's not my time yet. I literally can't get killed out here, like, like, invincible until God was through with you. Yes. And so there is a an otherwordly aspect to this that I just I literally don't think that we can understand as humans. Because, like, oh, I can choose to do this. I can choose to do that. How is that true? And then also my days are numbered and ordained like it's that's not something that I can

really understand from my current position. I accept that it's just like a mystery of the universe that that I don't get to understand from my particular but I also, like it's said in in the movie glad glad Gladiator, he says before they do that epic charge Calvary charge on the barbarians. He's like brothers, what we do in life echoes in eternity. And he's of a pagan

kind of belief. But my particular focus is like, what I'm actually doing here, like I'm only here for a certain amount of time, and I'd be given a unique set of skills, which is also why I take like, when Tyler's like, hey, let's, let's focus on this part in the conversation. I'm not upset about that. It's like, No, I wanted, I want to sit here in this interview and I want to give as much as I possibly can, that Nate can give, that can can live on in podcast. That's why

podcasts are awesome. This can can live on. Yeah, we get to have this conversation with as many people are willing to download it and give value to that. And that's essentially why I am so driven to push it's like I am the only person that can do right now, in this particular period of time what I'm supposed to do. I'm the only one that gets to be the parent to these kids. I'm the only one that gets to be the husband. I husband of this of my wife. I'm the in these particular clients I only

get to work with a couple a year. Like, why am I continuing to work for this idiot that is, is pinching my realization a few Yeah, and so that's, I think that's, that's ultimately, like, getting to that point where you're like, I don't need you or your money. I don't want you or your money. You don't fit what I was put on this earth to do a certain number of remodels for a certain number of people. Obviously, you don't appreciate

it. You know, I. Got a wife and kids, I've built all this. And so getting to that, and that's probably kind of waffling back from that internal external motivation is, is that's maybe flipping to the external side is to be like, I don't you're not going to appreciate it. I don't care. Bye. And actually having a couple that you somebody said, like, when I think one of my subs is like, I can go broke at the house, and I like it there better, you know? And actually having that

also have the same sentiment, yeah. And so, like, I'd, I'd rather sit at home and do nothing or go do something I like to do, rather than work for you for free, exactly. And so finally, getting to that point where you realize and that's and that's not, it can be for me, particularly where we are right now. We're slower with paid work. I have a couple in design, have one in con that's about to get signed in contract.

It's a little bit difficult to get this like they're they're scrutinizing some stuff, and it's like, shoot, this is a pain, but it's also, we got paid to do it like, and it's good work, and I priced it right. But I'm also building my house, which is I can make money disappear so fast, building the house, especially the house that I'm trying to make be a signature, you know, portfolio type home and be something that demonstrates our capacity and our our our, you know, in some

cases, like a foray into into new builds from remodels. So it's, it's, it's, it's hard to be disciplined in that way and to take risks, in a sense. And you're looking at, looking at cash flow, you're looking at these things, and you're making a choice to do certain things instead of other things. That's

always hard. Yeah, you made the reference in one of the questions like that, you know, no amount of time or planning could extend your life and that like, that's how you were going to operate, like you were going to operate as though, God, you know, would let you know when you're done. And you go on to talk about how that that that wasn't the case in business. And you make this reference that you had the backing of a government, a paycheck that always showed up a team of professionals beside

you. And I, I was thinking about, like, you know, how do I how do I, like, compare that to the bigger picture of, we'll just say life and, you know, it's, it's, it's the fact that we live in like, you know, we've basically commodified existing in the sense that, like, everything we do requires us To, I say, require with, you know, air quotes around it, to to to purchase it, where it's like at one point, and even in other parts of the world today, like people just live with nature,

like it's just like you, you've utilized the resources that are that are given to you, and we have commodified that to the point where it's like even the very basic needs is something that we are trading time and money for. And, you know, so your your your ability to kind of operate in the sense that I'm going to do this until God tells me I'm done, is is really just tied back to the fact that, like, everything's, you know,

given to you, right? Like you have what you need, like you have all the basic essentials, and you're getting a paycheck no matter what. And then you flip it to a business, it's like now nothing's giving to you. And you you will survive based on your

willingness to survive. And you know, and and, and directly tied to the location in which you decide to reside, yeah, well, and, and my, my brother told me, we kind of put ourselves, I felt like we created a tremendous amount of equity, and then we spent it, you know, and we've done that so many like, you mean that, like, literally or With you me, are you talking about in the military? Well, for this particular illustration, I was talking about cash equity multiple times. So we buy a house, we

sell it, we get a windfall of cash. We've done that multiple times, and we and we did the farm like we basically, you know, I think that you struck kind of a core to think we've commodified life. And I think a lot of the ways we're saying we reject that, like we want to actually build a remodel, prod a product with our businesses that's not a commodity, that is rebellious, in a sense to the majority of what is being done

out there. And so I think that that, I mean, that's a dot that got connected when you were talking about that earlier, is essentially, I have decided that I'm not going to do it the other way, because I look at the other way, and I say, with the military, if I just. Here and I become the sergeant major of Ranger Regiment, and then retire and get a payment like that is not what I want. Every you know, even though I became the number one Ranger, I know that there's actually other other echelons

above that. I got exposed to that. I went there and ultimately, like that platoon sergeant that says you don't get a job. He went and tried and failed and came back. So he had, like, a chip on his shoulder. Like, how's this 23 year old gonna go do something that I didn't and I did, you know, and he had that he had to call he's like, I'm proud of you, you know, like, he actually said that he in we had a great we, I we haven't had a great relationship. I've talked to him

on off over the years. It's, it didn't, it wasn't anything that I hold against him. But essentially, that's, that is the rebellious streak is to say I am not going to do it the same way everybody else does it, because the same way everybody else does it is, is, is, in some ways, it's, it's personified in that. What's the the movie, where is it? Wall e, where they're all like, plugged in and flying around and getting the food, their food, like, you know, fed to them intravenously, or it's

always available. And there's not like we it's actually the fact that this is hard, and you I think you just posted a story like, right before I got this interview. It's like, nobody else does this. That's the point, you know. And so getting to that point where, and my mantra is, if it was easy, anyone would do it, you know, and to say that when it gets hard is like, yeah, anybody could do this. When it gets

hard, not any, anybody could do this. They quit. Like, at this point, another business owner quit at this point, and visualizing that, it's like, yeah, like, this is hard, what I'm doing and, and so we sat down with my accountant, did, like, a planning session. It was hilarious, because he brought in a tax attorney. He's like, hey, what Nathan's doing and the way that he's building, he's he's building it faster than what he says, like, his stuff, he says he's going to do, he does it,

but he does it a lot faster. And I'm kind of worried that he's not set up to handle what he's doing. Like, we need to put like, this is, you know, professional like, and, and my wife's like, yeah, y'all don't know half of it, you know, and I'm sitting there like, is the wrong person in the chair right now, because I'm getting, I feel like I'm failing at all this

kind of stuff. And so like hearing, there's been, definitely been these moments throughout, and I, all of us have them, and it's various things where you and I think, ultimately, although I there's, I'm nowhere on the level of a great anything like CEO or whatever, like I have at this current position, have no employees because we've scaled back, and we're like, we're gonna get everything like I

started to kind of scale, and things went sideways. And I'm like, okay, my systems, my processes, my training, my ability to lead is not where it needs to be. And I need to scale back, and I need to get this right. And it's actually coming at a cost to my my product. It's coming out across to my quality of life, my profit is not great. You know, all of this stuff is

connected. I see the connections. I'm throttling it back, but ultimately to to the that thing that that Jim Collins talks about is that they never pointed at anybody else and said it was their their fault when it was going wrong and anytime it went good, they pointed at other people. And that that like crucial quality to own all the bad and say it's your fault, and to give credit to everybody else, or realize like, because

that's, I think, the other side of it is. The curse can be that you don't ever give yourself credit for what you're doing, or give yourself credit that it's actually really is hard and and you, and you put it all on your shoulders, and you just carry it. And so having, you know, those people, and having people cheered on, and then having these tangible things, but one of the things that he said, this particular accountant said, too, was, every time that they're in position to exit or take this

pay out, they they risk it all again, you know? And so that's kind of where we're at. We did our biggest risk ever, even though we did three, four historic live in remodels, even though we I bought this house at last day of the Army, and then found out how to pay all this money back and stuff like buying all this land with no house and moving into a bus and then my wife being like, I don't want to do this anymore, you know, like, I don't want to live in a bus. I want to be able to have people

over to our house. My wife is, is a phenomenal Cook, and that's kind of our family. Like, mission is to provide, is hospitality in a way. And we're doing it in a I think we're gonna be able to execute this in a particularly unique way, because we're, we're not necessarily trying to grow the

food to make money, but we're growing it for quality. And so we have, you know, raw milk and eggs that were raised in the land, and we've raised some pigs, and so it was like, but the ability to be like, you're sitting in a house we built on on land that we have tended, and you're eating food that we as a family brought to the table, both the actual ingredients, like the meat or the the different vegetables or whatever, and creating this, this particular physical place

for people to get together. And so that's what poor people do, right, right? You're trying, you're trying to put all these parts of the pieces of the puzzle together to basically do what people did when they had that. I mean, like, I'm not boosting your stones about that, sure. Like, that's what life is like these days. Like, if you want to live this wholesome lifestyle, it's so expensive to do that.

Like, to be able to create the freedom to do it. And like, we're all working to get to that point and struggling to get to that point where everyone before us struggled to get away from that correct we basically created this entire ecosystem of like, we don't, you know, we want to have more money, we want

to have things. We don't want to have to fend for ourselves and create this like, subsistent lifestyle, and now we're at the point where, like, No, we all want to go back, but we don't have enough money to go back well. And that other side of it is being in the position like my wife left town for a couple days, and I got to milk the cow

every day, right? And so I'm on this, you know, multi this multiple business, you know, one really profitable business owner walking up the hill to milk this cow, and I can buy raw milk for $16 a gallon, you know. So it's like, I have to milk this cow, and or else she's gonna be really mad at me and have some, you know, physiological issues. Cow. Did I say wife, please? Just please. Yeah, okay, I'll be mad. Be a bad Freudian slip, yes, milking, milking the cow. My wife left town so I can milk

the cow. No, very mad at you. Yeah, you didn't say I was talking about the milking. Yeah. And and I was curious if the cow was going to be mad or your wife. Okay, yeah, okay, yes, my both of them would have been mad and, and, but yeah, so, and realizing, like, that's this is, this is not a money thing. You're not. I'm not doing. We're

not. We don't have the cow to get rich like we have the cow, because we get to know exactly what that cow ate for a certainty, because we we brought it all there, and we get to have this right out of the cow, which, you know, is the healthiest. That's what they say, you know. And and we get to provide it to, you know, friends and family and things like that. That's like this boutique kind of thing. This is not, this is

the least commoditized form of milk, right here. You know, our family milked it, it's, it's, it's never been frozen, whatever, you know, and but, but also realizing that's the same I've had to do this with building the house, is that there can be this, this urge, like, I'm building this house,

this is how I'm going broke. Is building this house, but I'm actually the and I could build this house, probably faster and maybe even cheaper, if I would have just said no, I'm going to go sell projects and I'm going to build this like I'm working

for a client. I'm going to pay the subs, but then making the deliberate decision to be like, No, I want to form my my little human beings that I'm in charge of, and I want them to haul block, because I want them to have the perspective to be like, That guy that's laying that block is, is he's picking it up in one hand, and he's running a whole line of block, and he's not taking a break, you know? And having these, these formed things, to be able to say, we we built the house. And I

definitely am like, did I need to get this much land? Did I need to build the do I need to do a 16, not a 1612 pitch on our kitchen that's 25 feet tall. And, you know, some of that was this first time ever drawing a house from scratch, and then had to build it, build it in real life, and be like, Oh, shoot. Like, that's actually really big. Like, once we we had the

whole like, floor plan done. Right? And then I'm like, How in the heck am I going to get that ridge beam on this 25 foot tall vault with my, my eight year old, or my, you know, 12 year old and my 15 year old at the time, you know, but that, but then them having that particular experience that pushed their boundaries, and they we figured it out in, in a sense, like providing them the, the actual fundamental belief that that they don't have to do it like everybody else, because they

literally watched their mom and dad, like, plot this, this, this path and so, and I guess that's the side of it is like, okay, in a sense, like, Yes, I got to be profitable, I got to pay the bills, I got to do all that kind of stuff. But then stepping outside of it and saying, No, what's, what's the reason, the bigger why, and, and, and, and be able to let, I think that I sent you the slow productivity and working at a natural pace. Like, I've just really been trying, and I think that's what

thing that Tyler does better than both of us. Nick, like, yeah, he is able to work at his pace. He's able to like, and so, and that's why I feel like it's such a great like, you're such a great duo, and always comes out to hit the spectrum, is pushing the limits, but then also being like, Oh, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna do this job. I'm gonna, I'm gonna price it right where I am not I don't have to hurry. I'm gonna price it to where I

get to do it on my timeline. I can, I can deliver the result that I wanted, and I'm going to be happy with that, and I'm only going to do a couple, and they're going to be the right

ones, and that's all I need. And, and that's a psychology, psychology of money talks about this, like it's just a common thing to want more, and then when you get more, you're not happy with it, yeah, like you're the same person when you have more than you are now, now, and so that's that's been a that's been the gauntlet that I have run at least the last six to 12 months, is being like I don't, I don't care about the bottom line ultimately, but I do, you know I want to, I want the margins to

be the most that they possibly could be because that I think, what I think, what people mean by I don't care about the bottom line is that it just, they're, they're basically, you know, myself included. It's like, I don't want that to be the priority. I want my priority to be, I do what I am passionate about, and I want the bottom line to meet me there. Yes, well, and that's ultimately what that means, do what I want

to do with whom I want to do, it like it. That's, that's the ultimate motivator. I also think, with like, the lifestyle that you're trying to create, and it went through my head as you're describing, you know, trying to get a ridge beam in an impossible location with your young children. And to me, like, when you hear that, in theory, that could be a really, like, astounding, pivotal moment

in everyone's lives. But then I'm like, Well, if I put myself in that position and I have the stress of life on top of me, is that actually creating this, like coming of age experience, or is it just me being stressed out, being like, I don't have enough hands to do this. This isn't how it gets this should be

done. This should have been done way easier with a lull. And I think that like with the lifestyle that you're trying to create, you have to ensure that the everything's aligned to allow those experiences to happen as they're supposed to, rather than feeling stressed, rather than feeling under the gun, that you have too much on your plate. And I think trying to find a balance there is what's really important, and trying to create a business that affords you to maintain that

lifestyle. And yeah, not every experience is going to be amazing, and there's going to be stress, but if we have a lifestyle that is creating so much stress in our lives and feeling that we're so short on time, that all of those experiences are trashed because you can't even have the presence to be there without feeling stressed or behind the eight ball. I think that that's where we get into trouble Well, and that's the part that I've had to be very deliberate about.

And because it's not my kids fault that I set the business up this way, or I'm building this or they're in the bus or whatever, and and so if I'm up there and I'm upset with them because I'm stressed, you know, like, that's been the thing that is, like, I don't want this house to then become the thing that they're just like, Screw you, dad. Like, in your stupid house. Like. It needs to be the point where there is like, this,

and, and, and, I'm sure there's a mix of it, you know. Like, there's some days that's like, but at the same time too, it's like, Hey, I've had to have this talk with some of my boys. They're like, this is really hard, you know. And I'm like, You are not allowed to tell me that about work ever again, son. It is gonna continually get harder, and until you die, like

you're never gonna get away from work. And that's, that's essentially, I think, what the ultimate like, I believe, like my religious beliefs, believe work is cursed, like work wasn't supposed to be this way, like when we first started out in the beginning, you know, putting into the garden like man was, was it was it was not the same. And so it's, it is cursed right now, and it's difficult, and accept it like it's just going to be hard. And we have to rely on each other. We have to rely

on God to get us through this. And that, having that optic to say, look, and, and then even that, the framework to come back and be like, Hey, I was stressed out, but that's not you like, that's on me. And I was angry at you because of me, not because of you. And I'm proud of you, and I'm really glad you did

this. And, and then, you know, I sent my son up the other day. I was like, Hey, go build a dog house or shelter for the dogs that are, you know, watching the cows and, and he just, they built this dog house and it, you know, obviously there could be some improvements that me as a 41 year old owner of a

construction business. But I was, I walked up there, and I was just like, this is incredible, that you took the lumber from the pile and just built this dog house, and his friend was there, and then, like, I showed the photo to his friend and friend's mom, and then the dad, who actually texted and was like, Hey, can you send me those photos of The boys building the dog house. And it's like, like, that whole like, little like experience where two boys were, like, hyper

motivated. They didn't get any particular instructions except go build the dog house, and that's it. And I kind of was like, I don't know what they're going to take from the house, like, material wise, like this could get. But I was like, I just this, those are our curved steel doors. Yeah, yeah. They're like, with a grinder, like, taking the pains out. Like, this window, look great in the dog house, won't it? Dad, like, I

felt like the constraints, like, judgment wise, was there. But then, like, then this friend, the friend was like, I didn't

hear from him. Like, they were like, on mission, and it was a beautiful day, and they like, like, and then the parents were, like, send us photos and like, this whole like experience that got created that a poor person could also have had for a lot less money, you know, like, and, and So that's 100% the the side, two sides to the coin, you know, like, yeah, I just had experience like that with my oldest this morning. She's home from sick. My wife's in Vietnam

for work. She scheduled the cleaners to come to the house. Podcast today, meeting at 11 and my my this morning as I'm getting her youngest, like, out the door early because she has some sort of club, and then she has yoga club afterwards. And selby's like, I can't get this to print. And I'm like, in the middle of doing all this, and I tried to do it, and then I didn't, and then I got frustrated. I was like, listen, there's a lot on my plate right now. And I, like, was super

short with her. And then I just needed 10 minutes to, like, understand that everything was going to be okay. It was just that everything was hitting at once. And then I called her back and was like, Listen, you came to me not your fault, but at a really tough time for you to be asked, like, and I'm I'm grateful that you're proactive with your homework right now, but just like, that was a bad time for me. Now, let's figure

out what you have to do. And it sucks to be in that position and like I feel like we're in those positions every single day of our lives, and it's not going to be perfect, but to create as much of a lifestyle where you don't feel angst or anxious when stressed out, when your your 11 year old daughter, who's homesick, needs you to help hook up the printer. Like that's

where I try and move myself towards. And I think I try and create a business, a workflow like to be able to support that, because at the end of the day, like in the grand scheme of life, what your son did with his friend in the dog house is going to be something that they remember and something that is like pivotal and critical to shape their development as as kids, and I think that there's a really short window for them to

experience that, and I think that we have to. We have to make sure that, like our own agenda, in our program, and in your program, with the house and like for marketing reasons and everything else that you're not trying to put so much into that that it's it's pulling away from the the overall picture of that house, which is to get a space for your family to have to experience life where, like, at the end of the day, like, the question that we asked you about if there was something you do

where money wasn't an option, like, let that drive your decisions and your path forward, and if it creates this product that's a showpiece for your customers, great, but like, don't let that interfere or stunt your growth or progress on the build, yeah, yeah. And that's, it's always, I think there's a, there's a like,

if you optimized 100% for that the kids, right? And you said, like, I'm gonna, we're literally, they're gonna be the center, and we're not gonna, like, then are you actually letting them see you, like, live life in a way that they you know, because, like, some of it, there's you have to like for, for us, work is like, particularly, I think, psychologically, and there's, there's dad I can't put but for, men to do work is like, part of it like, I think a lot of wives

are like, I'll I would be totally happy staying home and doing like that is, and I think the culture maybe says like, that's not actually real work, like, You got to get an actual job stuff. But we, those of us that have had to be at home when our daughter needs something printed. Is like, I and I said, I've said before, when I first started my business, and I was,

you know, at home, my wife's like, I'm gonna go the store. I was like, I literally will go and clear a cave full of armed insurgents, like, for like, any time over an hour of these, these five kids. Like everything's going sideways. Like I find this more like there's more I can control about an armed cave of combatants than I can about this particular

situation. True, though it's so true, yeah, and, and so, like, that same side of it is, I don't, and that's the tension is, is it would be awesome to just stay home, but then you die, because you're not actually, you aren't actually living and fulfilling a calling that you have that is to bring about like that, like we're all in this particular position where we are right now, and and you charge Your path from here.

But that's also the side to say, like, do I really want to be a short term rental owner and host and farmer and remodeling general contractor and do pod? Like, I can't do all this stuff and all this stuff. I can do less of this and be better at this and and ultimately, being in the position of owning the business is the great best position to be in. You can, you can throttle stuff back, you can and ultimately, unhinging

yourself from time is is a big thing too. Like, for the longest time, I was not doing pre con based on time, because I was like, I actually want to make a lot more than this per hour, because I want to leverage, uh, margins and all this kind of stuff. But I was literally like, no for pre con, like, I've had enough go sideways now that I'd rather just cover the bases and and and have a loaded rate whatever, for this phase, it's okay, because at least I've seen enough the downside of this

enough, but ultimately unhinging yourself from time. And I think that's, there's a, there's a path to that. And media is one of those. You know, software is one of those. And I think that there's being, being able to leverage all those different things. And that's, that's the the path, I mean, forward is, is, and that's why I think there's some of that too. Is

doing the podcast. Y'all doing the podcast? I would imagine some of that is uncoupling from time, like this, the media, the courses that to do real things, not self licking ice cream cones, but, like, actually, really, love that reference, yeah, actually, really, go sell a real remodel or real pre con, or get a client that's better than all the other clients that

you've had before. By pulling you out of that, that myopic view you have on the way that this is done, that everybody else is done like, no, look, there's actually a better way to do it. We've done it. Try it. Try this script. Absolutely no. Well, speaking of playing Mr. Mom, I have to go get Tilly from yoga club. Nick's gonna wrap up with you. You can thank Rachel. She's in Vietnam, and this one's on me, but I appreciate your time. Nate, absolutely as always. Nice. I'll have to catch up with

you after this, but I appreciate it. Thank you. All right, guys, see ya. What's up? Guys? So when Tyler signed off, apparently, somehow it disconnected the recording, and I'm coming in a couple days later realizing that we lost the audio of wrapping up with Nate. So what you missed in that conversation was we were talking about some of the books that he recommended, which we can certainly share with you guys, but just digging into what was

his favorite and what his real lesson was. Interestingly, it was really around hospitality, and you probably heard that earlier in the podcast, which is really exciting, because I think hospitality client experience is something that I am constantly trying to improve in my own business, and you know, and if you listen to this podcast before, you've listened to me say it 100 times, but if you can improve that, I think you can really have an upper hand in a conversation or in This industry

with, you know, your business. So with that being said, make sure you head over to moderncrossman.co sign up for our newsletter. I'm going to share a little bit more about why I think hospitality is really important, but there's behind the scenes. We're issuing a bunch of notes from our podcasts, but also just have really good, tangible resources for you guys, modern craftsman.co, that's dot co, and sign up for Our newsletter and we'll see you guys next week.

Glad, I trust my mama. You're no match for my bad karma. You