Welcome to the Journey Beyond Divorce Podcast, where we invite you into a journey of healing and personal transformation that will radically change your divorce experience, heal your heart while refining your character, and set you up to be effective and feel empowered as you navigate the practical and emotional challenges of divorce.
From your host, Karen McMahon, founder of Journey Beyond Divorce, my divorce brought me to my knees, and it also transformed me and set me on this path to help you. Our team of JBD coaches support men and women to engage in divorce with more calm, clarity and confidence. We're at one-on-one coaching, group programs, online courses, and free resources. I just looked at the system and I said, why is a stranger, i.e. Dr. Bantjik, making a decision about what's good for a child?
And why is it judge in a position to have to decide what a mom and dad should be doing with the kids? This is just not right. And so I thought about divorce as a natural process. In other words, marriage is entitled to not work. Sometimes you feel unloved or unsafe or unsatisfied and it's got to change. And it is reasonable to change. It's okay to change. But can it change in a way that's intelligent? Can it change in a way that's not catastrophic?
You know, if Humpty Dumpty falls, can Humpty Dumpty fall and break into two pieces and not into 30,000 pieces? Welcome to the Divorce Roadmap series. Comprised of 24 episodes designed to be your guide through each leg of the practical divorce journey.
Be powerfully prepared as top experts in the field, advise you on each logistical stage from the agonizing question of should I stay or should I go through the complex legal, financial, and parenting choices before you to your future plans for housing, budgeting, and co-parenting post divorce? We've got a great show today with Mark Mancheck.
I just want to start by acknowledging how easy it is to get caught up in the chaos of divorce and in your own hurt and anger and how difficult it can be when you're going for divorce to see your kids loving on, defending, supporting, you're soon to be ex. And today's show is about how absolutely vital it is to keep your children out of the middle of your divorce, enabling them to feel safe amidst your divorce battle.
And while we'll be speaking about children that live with you and primarily younger children, many of the same rules exist for your adult children. So out of the age, your divorce has a huge impact on your kids and you can minimize any damage, especially those younger children, by abiding by some simple, although not always easy rules that we're going to be covering today. And I'm really excited about our guest, Mark Mancheck.
He is a child psychiatrist with training in Georgetown University and New York Presbyterian hospitals. And Mark's been seen on the CBS Early Show and been quoted by the New York Times, CNN, Huffington Post and USA Today. And Mark's going to talk to us a little bit later about this new launch that he has, which is the Intelligent Divorce Parenting Course.
And he also offers a free divorce booklet that we'll be sharing with you to help parents still effectively with divorce even when there's a difficult expo. So Mark, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you for having me, Karen. Mark, before we actually dive into the great material that you have to share with us, can you just tell us a little bit about how you came to focus in the specialty of children and divorce? Yeah. We've got to know each other a little bit. And I just see good things.
And I see you as a giant of sorts, a person that is kind of leading the way you're gathering troops to help people have a greater, greater overview of divorce. I'm going to talk about children today, but I just want to talk briefly about coaching. I do believe that coaching, and I'm a psychiatrist, I'm an MD, but I think so. I think coaching has a very important ancillary role in divorce because there are so many competing pressures on parents. And it includes how the kids are going to do.
It includes dealing with the legal issues. It includes dealing with your ex who can sometimes be very difficult. It includes finances. It includes dealing with your friends or in-laws who don't want to talk to you anymore or do, and they're manipulative. That's so complicated. But having a coach who sees the whole picture who can say, you know, I think you're traumatized, go to a trauma therapist. I think that you need a good lawyer, go to this person. I think mediation is better.
And having that kind of allies, it's like you're in a war and you're sitting on the hill and you're a general looking at the troops and you have an advisor who really has been there before and it can make you a lot less anxious. So I really, I just applaud your work here and I applaud your work. More, thanks so much. And so about me, how have I got involved? I'm a child psychiatrist. I mean, I love kids.
I've raised my own with my wife and I've probably helped thousands of children find their way, working with other parents as an adjunct to them. And I just know kids cold, even when I see adults, I see the child inside them. So may everybody in some ways as a child and an adult's body. And so I was invited to be an expert witness in court for a number of years and I did expert witness testimony, which is a tough testimony.
It's a evaluation of children and a family and trying to decide who should have custody. And after doing this and because my nature is even tempered and the judge has appreciated my contributions, I just got annoyed. I just looked at the system and I said, why is a stranger, i.e. Dr. Banschik, making a decision about what's good for a child? And why is a judge in a position to have to decide what a mom and dad should be doing with the kids? This is just, this is just not right.
And so I thought about divorce as a natural process. In other words, marriage is entitled to not work. Sometimes you feel unloved or unsafe or unsatisfied and it's got to change. And it is reasonable to change. It's okay to change. But can it change in a way that's intelligent? Can it change in a way that's not catastrophic? You know, if Humpty Dumpty falls, can Humpty Dumpty fall and break into two pieces and not into 30,000 pieces?
And so I applied myself, I'm a teacher by nature and I looked at divorce and I said, can we do this intelligently? And so I started teaching the intelligent divorce, which kind of moved forward to me writing for psychology today. And now I have 35,000 people reading me every week. But I really believe that if we get to parents early on, we can help them not make the mistakes that they potentially can make. Can I give you an example? Yeah, please do. Here's an example, a simple example.
I'm going to pick on a woman for now so I can easily pick on a guy. So let's be fair. It's equal opportunity of picking. And when I speak about parents, I don't want to present parents as the problem. Divorce itself creates what we call regression. It creates a pressure. Will I ever be loved again? Can I trust him? Or I can't trust him? Or is my lawyer good enough? A million questions. And so you drop down in a level of functioning to not be your real self.
And so sometimes you want to be a good parent, but you can't be because you're so preoccupied with your own pain. And so here's the story. One woman is on the phone with her girlfriend and she's very angry with her ex, very angry with her ex, who is not giving her the money that she deserves. And legit, she should be talking to her friend about this. Okay, she's in the kitchen. Here's the scene. Sam, her nine-year-old son, walks into the kitchen.
He opens the refrigerator to get some milk and maybe make himself some chocolate milk or something, right? And she's on the phone with her friend. And in that moment, she says, and Sam's father doesn't even love him. Now I ask you, Karen, does she remember that the next day? Probably not, but the boy does. And now I'll ask you and Steve, does this boy remember it the next day? Yeah. Yeah, even as you said it, I could imagine how it fell on his heart. Right.
And so the mistakes we make are so profound, it was nothing for her to say something negative about Sam's dad. In front of Sam, it was everything to Sam. And these are preventable mistakes because you know, 10 years later, Sam could say his mom, why did you do that when I was nine years old? Why did you do that? And so I've designed this course to teach people, to teach people how to handle themselves so they don't have Sam's in the future getting upset with them.
And that's what my divorce work is all about. By the way, Karen, why do you think this woman, and let's consider that she's a nice person, why would she say something bad about Sam's father in front of Sam? Now I was just going to say, I think that when we're hurt and angry and in chaos, one's level of conscious action can be really low. And I think you use different words.
But I think that a big part of what we do in our coaching is help to raise people's consciousness that what they're doing, they're doing intentionally and they're aware of their actions. And in that scenario, you could imagine mom being so caught up in her own anger that she's just oblivious to what's going on and who's around her. Now I would go one for a step further and your audience is already thinking about this. It's not that she's oblivious. She wants to Sam to join her in her outrage.
Yeah, I think that there's definitely, even for anyone who wouldn't admit it, that I want them to side with me or love me more or what have you. Love me more, exactly. And so that's the mistake they make now. Now let's say he comes back and she's conscious, okay? You've done your work. Karen has done her work and she's conscious.
The boy walks in the room and she knows that she wants to say something negative about the father, but instead she says, you know, the weather is very nice today and she chooses to protect her son. Exactly. Now what just happened in that setting? She took into consideration what was going around her and it's that level of awareness that this isn't the time or place. And this is the goodness that can come from divorce.
You know, I read your website and about how you felt there was a personal transformation in your own life through divorce. I think people can transform themselves into a higher level and actually be great parents during divorce, but it takes intelligence, it takes consciousness because when Sam walks in that door and she wants to say something bad about his father and she chooses not to, she's protecting his innocence.
And I'd like to talk about this briefly and then we can talk about the Bull of Rights. So I'm a child psychiatrist and you know, if anything, I'm a social warrior for children. They didn't ask for the divorce. The parents did by and large children don't ask for divorce and yet they have to deal with the consequences of divorce. Now when you bring children into this world, guys, when you bring children to this world, you owe them their innocence.
It's the most precious thing that we can give children. You know, the world is difficult enough. We should protect them through until they go off and leave the house that they should have a sense of innocence. And we can break that innocence so easily when we're upset and that happens in divorce. And so my Bill of Rights for Children, I wrote a Bill of Rights for Children that's meant to protect their innocence.
And I believe that if we protect the innocence of children through divorce in a conscious way that by and large, the kids will come out just fine and maybe even stronger because of the divorce. I think that makes so much sense. And your Bill of Rights is really, it just hits to the heart of all of the things that we have an opportunity to either do right or do wrong.
And what I want to say is before we dive in, if you're one of those people who are in a high conflict divorce and you don't think that you're soon to be ex-wood abide by this list, one parent choosing this path is still really incredibly valuable and important. Can I really mirror that? And I think that's true because kids cling to the healthy parent.
At some level, they cling to health and if you can be the mature person and handle yourself well, your kids are going to feel reassured and I agree. So I have 10 Bill of Rights, 10 rights that the kids have. And the first one is don't ask me to choose sides. Well, what's that about, Karen? And how often does a parent put a child in a position where they have to choose and on so many different levels that can happen? And this is confusing for kids because we want to protect their innocence.
We want to protect their innocence. We don't want them to have to decide whether they're with mommy or with daddy. And it takes discipline not to put them in that position. And if they're to grow up feeling like they have to choose, we're stealing their childhood from them. We're forcing them into the role of what we call a parentified parent. We are asking them, a parent-to-child, we're asking them to essentially think like an adult.
No, no, no, they are children and they don't have to choose sides. And you know, I want to ask you about something. I have a couple of clients that I'm dealing with right now, a pretty high conflict. And one of the things that's really interesting is they'll say, you know, well, my kid didn't say anything about, you know, XYZ about the divorce.
And I was informed going through my own divorce and felt really strongly that my kids needed a third party because if they had an issue with dad, they couldn't complain to me because they would be being disloyal and uncomfortable and vice versa. And so if there is what we did was there were school social workers, we got therapists for them and had people for them to talk to. Yeah, well, you know, I call this reinforcement. You know, it's like, you know, you're going to war.
You need reinforcement sometimes, right? So it's not just the two of you. It's like it's a community. You know, there are therapists, there are coaches, there are aunts, and there are uncles. There are lots of people in the world that look for children. But you know, it's really, it's valuable for kids to see a therapist or to be somebody who is professional so that they can complain about what's going on. Also, kids, children allow to be manipulative, Karen.
They're allowed to want, you know, kids, no children. Right. So it's like, you know, parents are getting a divorce and like, you know, you saw the young couple of moms and say, look, you know, dad's really a, you know, a creep, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why don't you get me an Xbox? You know, that, you know, that's not so good, you know, and that, that happens too. And we have to love them and let them be manipulative. They'll be children, but their, but their innocence has to be maintained.
And we can't get sucked in. And having that separate person that they could talk to, it can be grounding for them. And it's actually a mature thing for parents to give that as a gift to their children. You've been listening to our podcast, getting educated, regulating your emotional reactions, and it's been really helpful. Yet, you know you could do better, be better, and you're wanting and needing more support. That's where our coaching service is a game changer.
We're here for you when you need us the most. Ensuring you have all the tools and resources at your fingertips, guiding and supporting you to be more effective. Our free rapid relief call helps you gain a broader perspective, commit to your best next steps, and determine what coaching support is right for you. Visit rapidreliefcall.com to book your call today.
And I would say even, and again, just my own experience was that my children were at a very young age really able to articulate their feelings because they had this opportunity. I mean, the group at school was called the feelings teacher, right? So they had this opportunity to let me around the feelings teacher and learn how to articulate what they were frustrated about, what they wanted, what they needed.
And I thought that was just one of the many little gifts that came out of such a difficult time. Yes, you know, I mean, I think, I mean, I don't think that kids from divorced homes have to be damaged. I mean, I think that life is filled with adaptation. You know, it's not what happens to you that counts. It's what you do with what happens to you that counts.
And, you know, everyone's going to deal with disappointment and hurts and not doing well enough on an SAT or not doing a school in college or getting into a graduate school but not the one you want or having a lover leave you or having something not like you that you like. There's some 1,000 million things that we have to deal with that are filled with disappointment.
And so if a child learns early on that they have what it takes to manage change, we're giving them a gift and sometimes divorce can actually make children stronger if we give them what they really need.
And you're singing my tune now and it's not advocating divorce, but geez, if you do it right that at a really young age, they can go from thinking their world is falling apart to seeing that they were able to work through it and grow and so much good can come of it if you're healthy in the way that you deal with them. So let's go to number two of your bill of rights. Spare me the details of your legal proceedings. So the guy comes home and he's so pissed off, right?
He's so angry because the judge decided that it ruled against him and his 14 year old daughter was there and he says, look what your mom did to me. Look what your mom did to me in court today.
And this is a breaking of the innocence of the child and this is the breaking of we call the intergenerational boundary and it's something that I believe in very strongly which is that there is a boundary between the adult generation and the child generation and we have a responsibility to maintain that boundary and does a 14 year old girl need to know about what's going on in court Karen? Yeah, absolutely not or issues around child support.
I mean, there's so many details that you could want to spill in front of your kids or two your kids that's just so damaging. They're just that they should not have to and are not capable of shouldering it. Right. And that goes into number three which is and by the way, I write this in the first person. I want you to imagine a child saying this to you. You know, don't confide in me or lean on me, it's too much. What's that about Karen?
Yeah, I had one client where her ex was so upset and the children were young and he would like he would put his head in her daughter's six year old daughter's lap and cry about how mommy's breaking her heart and destroying the family. And you know, just so oblivious to the weight and the damage and the hurt that that you do. Right. So let's unpack that a little bit. Let's talk about him. Let's be kind to him for a moment. What's he going through that he's imposing this on his child?
Well, you said the word regression earlier and I thought that was so interesting because that fear and anxiety and not knowing what to do, I've seen that so much. Yes, it's a sense of foreboding that I can't handle what's going on. Oh my God. And I can't deal with this. And who's the audience when you come home? Who's there when you come home? Who's there? And who loves me? Right. Who loves me? So it's like your six year old child's the one who's there.
Your nine year old kid's though, your 14 year old, your 18 year old daughter's the one who's there. Yeah. And you have to, and this is why the intelligent divorce, it's not about feeling divorce, it's not about spiritual divorce, it's about using your head. Okay. You come home and you're feeling lousy and you want to put your head in the lap of your six year old because it's like delicious. It's delicious.
You know, you love this child, but you won't because you don't want to spoil his innocence or break the indigestional boundary. You come home, you remember with Dr. Bantjik said, and what Karen's it and you say, you know what, I'm going to call my best friend. Exactly. And I'll talk about this. It'll be fine. But you know, I want to ask you something because I think that the other extreme of it is to not show any of your feelings as you're going through it.
And so can you speak to that balance between being real that it's a difficult time for everybody and showing emotion without confiding and leaning on? Well, I think one is where you're the rock that they're leaning on where you're saying, look, I know it's hard. And if you have some thoughts or feelings, you know, I'm happy to be here. And if it's and you recognize that if it's too much, that you'll get a therapist for the child, but it comes from a place of center, not a place of unsenter.
Very big difference. And I guess I want to ask you, Batsal, what if a child comes in and they see, you know, mom crying, it's like she's clearly upset. What do you advise in a situation like? I think, you know, I think there's two levels to this. In the moment, you know, if it's happening occasionally, it's, you know, mommy's upset about the divorce. It's going to be fine. You know, grownups get upset. They cry just like kids do.
We pull ourselves together and you know, this is just part of life. It's an educational moment. If it's something you're doing on a regular basis, then I think that's more pathological and you probably have the depression or you're losing your boundaries with your child and you really need to get therapy for yourself. So you find another source to take, you know, take to get solace. Excellent. I appreciate that. I think that's great.
We really support you wherever you are in the before, during our after stages of divorce. With things like our divorce recovery series, which is a 12 step series that you can listen to or if you are to invest in Mark's intelligent divorce, a lot of times it requires, I think you said general earlier, it requires someone who has that panoramic perspective to be a sounding board and to support you and to help you make the best possible choices.
And so if you're interested, if you're struggling and you're looking for someone on one support, Journey Beyond Divorce has a team of coaches. We have a sliding scale fee and you can reach out. You can go to journeybeyonddivorce.com and request a lifeline session. And you can go to divorcerecoverylifeline.com and get our 12 step flash guide, which is also free. Wow. It's great to have both of you together. I just want to say our next show is also going to focus on children. So stay tuned.
Children in divorce with Larry Sirreeb. I wonder if I can say this right. Sirreeb's key. And he is a child advocate and attorney and a filmmaker who's produced a powerful film on the impact of children during divorce. So you don't want to miss that one. Thanks for joining us on the Journey Beyond Divorce podcast. I hope you found guidance and encouragement to help you along your journey. If you like my podcast, please take a minute to subscribe and leave a review on iTunes.
You can also visit us at jbdivorsupport.com where a team of coaches support both men and women throughout one-on-one coaching, group programs, online courses, and free resources. Stay tuned for our next episode and I'll talk to you soon. Of course your friends and loved ones deeply care about you. But if you're honest while they mean well, when it comes to your divorce, they just don't get it. And sometimes you leave those conversations feeling even more isolated.
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