Empathy is a big word in learning. We want to have more of it, so learning professionals are increasingly charged with helping to promote and somehow inculcate it in their learners. But the efficacy of programmes designed to do that thing has been highly questionable. In this episode we look in depth at an innovative programme designed by Make Real that has pioneered a way of increasing empathy. The programme has shown surprising results, and not just by the (often limited) standards by which training programmes are normally judged. Make Real collaborated with Empathy and VR researcher, Lynda Joy Gerry, to carry out a scientific evaluation of the programme. John talks to Lynda and Sophie Costin, of Make Real about the programme, and its implications for the future of learning.