Ian Robertson
Hey Jay, I got a knock knock joke for you.
Jay Wynn
Oh boy, here we go.
Ian Robertson
Knock knock.
Jay Wynn
Who’s there?
Ian Robertson
Interrupting host.
Jay Wynn
Oh, is this like…
Ian Robertson
Welcome to Inspector Toolbelt Talk.
Jay Wynn
Alright, interrupting host, here we go.
Ian Robertson
Well, I felt it was an appropriate introduction to one of my favorite segments, Drinking With Jay. So, for all of our listeners who already didn’t have to pee,
Jay Wynn
Yeah, I was thinking that.
Ian Robertson
You might have to pee now.
Jay Wynn
Are we in the bar?
Ian Robertson
But, but I swear we just started. So, we have this segment around because Jay and I are friends. And some of our best conversations come from sitting around a fire and drinking a glass of whiskey. So today we’re going to talk about mentoring and teaching inspectors. And we’re going to do that to a nice glass of whatever we happen to be drinking. So let’s start off with you, Jay, what are you drinking tonight?
Jay Wynn
So I’m going low end, somebody told me to try Jim Beam. And I thought Jim Beam, they said no, go with the Extra Aged dark. It’s a lower end. But it’s got a lot of flavor. And it’s actually really pretty good. So that’s kind of what I’ve been playing with. We used to have a thing where a lot of people have tried to buy a really expensive bottle of whatever. And we kind of went the other way, we tried to find really good whiskies that were really affordable. So this was kind of in that vein, I thought, well, let’s try it. So Jim Beam extra dark. And I like it.
Ian Robertson
You know, depending on where you are getting your whiskey, that’s, that’s what American whiskey was all about, was making it affordable and available, well that, and you know, distilling in the hills and just doing whatever the heck you want. But, you know, during the distilling and era of, you know, moonshiners, you’d make some corn, corn whiskey, do it in the woods, and you can basically just do that as an affront to all the Scotch whiskies and everything being imported to the U.S. and only certain people being able to afford that on a regular basis. So something to be said about a cheaper whiskey, you know,
Jay Wynn
I like good. That’s the problem. That’s why I don’t think I could be a real alcoholic because I just don’t like cheap stuff. So…
Ian Robertson
What’s your go to whiskey for just like, I call it a Thursday night whiskey, like, I’m just sitting here.
Jay Wynn
Thursday night whiskey. I like Jameson Black Barrel.
Ian Robertson
Oh.
Jay Wynn
I really like that one. That’s, it’s, it’s darker. It’s got a nice flavor to it. That one’s kind of been my go to for years, but this one’s pretty close.
Ian Robertson
My wife likes that a lot. She drinks it straight. It’s very smooth.
Jay Wynn
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s a good, it’s a good one. It’s a good go to. I try to have a bottle of that around. I’m probably going to try to keep a bottle of this around now.
Ian Robertson
No, so, repeat for me again which whiskey you’re drinking tonight.
Jay Wynn
Jim Beam Extra dark.
Ian Robertson
Jim Beam Extra dark. My Thursday night whiskey is usually Bullet Bourbon. I like, I like that bourbon. Yeah. You really can’t go wrong. Bourbon on its own. Sometimes people call it rough or aggressive. Like it gives you acid reflux because it’s the corn in it. But I, you know, Bullet I don’t, I don’t get that from the Bullet. I think it’s nice and smooth. But tonight, I might have even drank this on our last episode. I’m drinking Lagavulin 11 year in the charred oak cask. So if Lagavulin wasn’t peaty enough, let’s make it peatier by making the casks a little bit more charred. But it is nice. It’s a, it was a gift from a good friend of mine, Jacob Colegrove and his wife Abby. They gave me a bottle of this, and I have been enjoying it. It’s very nice. My favorite, my favorite brand.
Jay Wynn
Yeah. it’s your little Ron Swanson tribute going there.
Ian Robertson
Oh, yeah. You gotta, you gotta live up the Ron when you can. So speaking of Ron Swanson, something that people might not know about you, is you are a lumberjack/woodworker. A little bit of both there. How’s the mill going? You mill anything good lately?
Jay Wynn
I have not been milling anything good lately. It’s, I got a big maple sitting on deck, and I’ve just been doing other stuff. So I haven’t had time to run it. Actually, the big problem is because we haven’t had a frost, the area in front of the mill is a big mud hole. So if I pull the tractor in there, it just gets all tore up. So, because of the weather, it’s been really hard to move around. So I’m not inclined to move boards by hand too much anymore. So till it hardens up, until it falls out and goes away, I’m probably not going to run the mill as much.
Ian Robertson
So I think, I think you’re a good example for all of us as home inspectors. If you’re a home inspector and all you do is work, stop for a moment and think, you could be out there at the end of a hard day, cutting up boards out of a tree that you felled with your own bare hands..
Jay Wynn
And an ax.
Ian Robertson
And then build something afterwards. Yeah, build something with it afterwards, and then go have a glass of whiskey like, Jay Wynn.
Jay Wynn
Sounds very macho.
Ian Robertson
It does. Yeah. But today, you actually brought up this subject. And before we get into the subject, I do want to say, I get a ton of requests for a drinking segment now, like, a lot of guests will be like, hey, I heard you have a drinking segment. Can I get in on that? And I’m like, we don’t provide the alcohol. They’re like, no, no, no, it’s okay. I just want to drink alcohol on air. I’m like, I think I started something.
Jay Wynn
I think you may have.
Ian Robertson
But you want to talk about mentoring and teaching inspectors, and I think this is an appropriate subject for you. You and I have worked with a lot of home inspectors over the year, over the years. And you especially, I think you’ve probably mentored and done ride alongs with more inspectors than I have even. But it’s kind of rare. Because when I first started in the industry almost 20 years ago now, nobody wanted to give me a ride along. No one even wanted to answer a question. At the time, it was ASHI in the area, and the ASHI guys were always like, “Oh, if you want to learn something, come to our meetings.” You go to a meeting, they were like, “What’s this guy doing here? Don’t talk about any of our secrets.” I’m like, this is not helpful. So I kind of had to learn on my own, and it wasn’t easy. You kind of want to change that a little bit? Can you tell me why?
Jay Wynn
Well, actually very much so. And I think it’s because, it’s because I come from a trades background. Very much, almost, if you will, the apprentice master kind of idea is that if you’ve got something and you know something really, really well, you have, kind of have an obligation to pass it along and to share that. And then when I was coming up in the trades, if I could work with somebody that really knew their trade, I really wanted to learn what they had. And a lot of those guys guarded their knowledge pretty close. And a lot of them were real tight to the vest with things. But after a while, and you prove that you were in it for the long haul, and that you weren’t going to just pack up and run away, they would open up and start showing you tricks that either you would never have figured out on your own or taken you years to figure out, so the old guys were really just a wealth of information to tap into. And as a young guy, I mean, you can not only do better work, but you can shave years off your learning curve. And I think at the end of the day, just put out a better product. And one of the things that I saw, you know, like you said, when we were coming in, when I was coming in, guys were so guarded about what they knew, like it was some magic secret. And my thought was, this isn’t helping the industry, this isn’t helping where we’re going. It’s, it’s keeping everybody kind of backwards and isolated, when if we can just cool and share what we know, everybody’s going to be better, the old guys are going to be better, the young guys coming up are going to be better. Um, it’s kind of something that I’ve really, I’ve done it a couple of times. Actually, after I did it a couple of times, I was pretty convinced that it’s the, it’s a really solid way to go. Eight guys that really want to learn, take them in, teach them as much as you can, help them get a leg up, help them get started, and go from there.
Ian Robertson
You know, I think, even past the moral obligation of it, because I think that’s important. You know, if we, we know our, if we know our profession, we should pass on that knowledge. Imagine a doctor saving all his tricks and not teaching new doctors and new doctors have to relearn things, the profession never gets better. But past the moral obligation. I always kind of viewed it as controlling the narrative. So we’re not only talking about mentoring directly, like hey, come with me on this inspection, but teaching inspectors. I remember one of the first inspection courses that I taught. One of the guys came up to me, thank you so much. I always wondered about this, I always wondered about that. I didn’t hold back, everything that I did, I just let it out. And I had one guy come up to me, I can’t believe you’re telling new guys this. Like one of them was a contract thing that I had an attorney write up for me, I spent money on it. And guys were writing it down. He’s like, you shouldn’t be sharing that stuff. You earn that, you earned the right for that. And I’m like, man, those are two different perspectives. This guy is just like, hold your secrets tight. And the other guy’s like, thank you very much. So what I did was I just continued to do that. And you know, you’ve been to my courses, and you teach very similar courses. We just let it all out. But what ended up happening for me is, I always hated the I call out this and the other guy doesn’t call it out. And everybody gets into an angry fit, you know, why did Ian call it out? And not this guy? Or why did this guy call it out, not Ian? What I started to notice was, we started to level out our industry in our area. Guys were more consistent. They started to kind of follow the lead of what we were teaching in the courses and on the ride alongs. Yeah, you follow this? Yeah. Oh, yeah. We always call that out because this and this and this can happen, and I would learn stuff from them. So we actually kind of started to, I hate that term, controlling the narrative, but that’s kind of what happened was, we created a bit of consistency. And to be frank, a higher standard, guys were out there just missing things.
Jay Wynn
Yeah, I think that’s the thing, pushing for a higher standard was, was my take on it. It’s like, there are guys that want to keep things to themselves, keep things tight. And I get that. You don’t want to train your competition, which is potentially what we’re doing. So I do understand that. I have some arguments against that. But I understand that perspective. I think it’s a little limited. I think it’s very short sighted. But the thing that I noticed is that if we can improve the standard of the inspectors out there, and we can, everybody can just push to do a little bit better job, our industry has a better reputation. And now, one of the byproducts of that that I found is, instead of walking up and people go, well, he doesn’t know he’s talking about, he’s just the inspector. But now it’s like, over the last few years, when you show up, and you’re doing this inspection, people go, no, he knows his stuff. He is the inspector. And there’s just like a subtle shift. But it’s kind of a big deal. They don’t, they don’t downplay our role as much, as not only what we’ve done is, I think, frankly, in our area improved the quality inspections, but I think as agents are coming to expect more from our inspectors in our area, and I think that’s a win win win.
Ian Robertson
Yeah, so we’re going to take this maybe from two perspectives, the perspective of, we’ll talk about it in a little bit, of guys coming up, wanting mentorship. But let’s talk a little bit about the guys like you and me who have been in it for a bit, why we hold back sometimes. So let’s talk about that. But I think you made a beautiful point. And I think it comes down to street cred. So I remember one time I was on an inspection. And at this time, you know, half a dozen guys have, you know, learned from me, directly, hundreds of guys through my classes. And I remember I called something out. And one of the agents started to say, well, I’ve never had this come up before. And we’re not going to negotiate on it. And I could hear the other agent say, Ian teaches a course on this, I think he knows what he’s talking about. And it’s happened many times, like other inspectors, like another agent sent me an email chain. He goes, I gotta show you this, Ian. Another inspector said, oh, Ian called that out? I literally learned how to do this from him. He knows what he’s talking about. Shut it. Shut it right down. So it’s street cred.
Jay Wynn
Same thing with me, I’ve had, I’ve had agents go, and this is after I started teaching, after I started helping guys license up, I’ve had agents that were basically attacking my credentials, trying to put down and downplay what I was calling out. I’ve had my, like my buyer’s representative go, this guy is teaching other home inspectors, he knows his stuff. And it’s amazing how it just, just shuts that conversation right down. So, and then, the agents that, that work with me and refer me go, great, there’s one conversation I don’t have to have, because I picked the right inspector. And then the other thing I like about it is guys that mentor and ride along and train with me. If they get in the field and get in a pickle, they can call me too. So you know, sometimes I’ll get a phone call from an inspector that I’ve been working with. He’s like, hey, I’ve never seen this before, what is it? So the agents are more apt to refer them because they know that they have, you know, kind of access to what I know, too. So it’s, I think it’s just a win win win. I mean, it keeps your name out there. If you’re looking for a straight selfish reason to do it. It keeps your name front and center. I mean, if you’re the guy teaching all the guys out there, that’s a pretty good position to be in so that when you make a call, it tends to be pretty, much more definitive. It’s like you said, it ends that conversation to a very large degree.
Ian Robertson
Yeah, as Jay put it, that is one marketing slash, quote, unquote, selfish reason to do it. It is amazing marketing. So if you don’t believe in the whole betterment of our industry, like me, and Jay may be here and you’re just like, I’m just looking to market. It is incredible marketing. I had a home inspector just today message me, sent me two pictures and said, hey, you know, have you seen this before? I said, what area are you in? Okay, I know that area check for this and this. Cool. That, that inspector is not ever gonna throw me under the bus. He’s only gonna say good things about me. And you know what? Say I am a single inspector firm, and I break my leg. And I can’t go to an inspection that afternoon. Guess who’s gonna back me up? He’s gonna be like, I got you, I got you, Ian. You know? We’ve done that for each other.
Jay Wynn
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And the guys that, the guys that I’ve helped teach, have my back and I got theirs. So I think that’s the other reason to really do it. The other selfish reason to do it is you’re building a strong community of people around you. That can really help you out, because I don’t care who you are, unless you got the big red S on your chest, you can’t do everything all the time, and you can’t be everywhere all the time. Cultivating these relationships and having three or four other guys that we really like and can trust that you can say hey, I need a radon done. This is what happened. Can you help me out? Septic is, you know, I’ve got a septic inspection, I need help with, k. If we have that you can tap into, that’s a beautiful thing. You know, it takes some of this, you know, I’m a single inspector. I like what I do, but it can get very lonely out there. And sometimes it’s just, you get overwhelmed by the workload, it’s nice to have a couple of guys that are willing to help out.
Ian Robertson
Yeah, I remember one time, I had an inspection where there’s the radon test, people dropped it on the floor, can broke open, whatever, many, many years ago. One of the guys that I had worked with and taught, I got you covered, Ian, I’m right around the corner.
Jay Wynn
Yeah.
Ian Robertson
You know, agents are like, wow, you have like a whole network of people. You know, I was a young guy, I’m just like, like geez, it’s an hour and a half away, I gotta drive all the way up. He’s like, don’t worry, I got you. And he took care of it. And you know, when he needed help, I went and took care of what he needed.
Jay Wynn
Yeah.
Ian Robertson
It’s a beautiful networking system. And it just makes life a lot easier. You’re not flying solo out there because you have a network of guys. You’re not fighting other home inspectors, which, let’s be honest, it happens, you do a pre-listing inspection as a home inspector, the next guy that comes in is the buyer inspector, and all of a sudden you have two people fighting over stuff. That’s how it used to be years ago.
Jay Wynn
Yeah. And I’ve done it, I’ve done a pre-listing inspection, frankly, where the inspector coming behind is an old grizzled veteran, and he’s been around for a long time, and frankly, he doesn’t particularly like me, or how I’m doing things. And they always nitpick stuff and try to find stuff. And, you know, well, he didn’t call this out. And this is, of course, a major, and then you get the phone call, and he’s talking to clients, and you walk them through it, they pretty much can see through it. So, but for the most part, it’s, it’s a, and I’m not gonna, so I’m not gonna say it’s gonna resolve every issue you’re going to run into. Because there’s some guys out there that are just set in their ways. They insist that their way is the only way of doing things. And they feel like they have earned what they’ve got, and they don’t want anybody to come close to it. So I still have a little conflict with those kinds of people. But for the most part, I find guys in the industry are will really pretty open to talking about things to help other people and just sharing the tricks of the trade, especially when it comes to bringing up some younger blood. But even as peers, I just had a phone call today with a guy who’s a mold assessor and a home inspector in our area. And he called me up and said, hey, this is the situation I run into. And we had over an hour’s conversation about things in general. He’s seen my work, he’s seen my reports, he knows I do septic inspections, he’s actually been to a class or two. And he called me, hey, this is what I ran into. Have you ever seen this? And it was just a great conversation. Again, there’s another contact I’ve been able to make, so comfortable calling him in the future, if you know, I have a question about something he’s doing or something on his way, I think it just works for everybody. I haven’t, you know, my philosophy, though, is this. And this is where I come from, I really think that if you’re trying to be the best that you can be, if you’re always trying to improve your craft, if you’re always trying to write a better report, if you’re always trying to do a better inspection and just be on top of your game, I really feel like at some point, you can no longer have competition, you can only have peers. And I don’t know, that’s my attitude on things. And I really tried to be in that group.
Ian Robertson
So, and that’s a beautiful point. There’s a morality part of it. So let’s get out of the marketing slash, you know, let’s just say we’re all business. Those are all good business reasons to have a network. And let’s, one last thing about that, I guess, is overflow work. Yeah. So inspectors that I know and that I’ve mentored. I will send them work. We’re too busy this week. And then you know what? There’s been times where I’m like, oh, man, we’re a little slow this week. And all of a sudden work comes in, and the referral sources, two or three home inspectors that I’ve taught over the years, hey, I’m on vacation. This is my client, done two other inspections for him, take good care of him. I only refer him to you. It is a beautiful business decision to teach and mentor other home inspectors, teach classes, continuing education or otherwise, take guys along on ride alongs, but moral lesson.
Jay Wynn
So, no, I was going, to that point, I was at an office presentation. And agents are so used to when a home inspector comes in, hearing the “I’m the greatest thing in the world, refer me, I’m the best thing you’ll ever do.” My presentation was a lot different, though. It was, it was, this is the information you’re going to need. But one of the agents was trying to set me up, he’s like, so you’re the only inspector in the area that’s doing something like this, right? And you can tell when it’s a loaded question. My reply was no, actually there, I know five or six guys in the area that are doing really great inspections that I’d be more than happy for you to work with. And I went through, and I named them. I said, this is a great guy. This is a great guy. This is a great guy. I like how they do things. And I, and literally the broker goes whoa, hold on. You just gave us four other home inspectors, four other guys, you named them. I said, absolutely. They’re good guys. It’s, what I want is, I want you to be using very good inspectors to take care of your people. Blew the whole office away, I got more referrals out of them than you can imagine. Just because I didn’t walk in there, “these guys don’t know anything. But I am the smartest.” It was just like, no, these are the guys you want.
Ian Robertson
Is that how they really, is that how they really sound, Jay? Do that again.
Jay Wynn
I’m serious. That’s how they really sound.
Ian Robertson
It’s even better when you hear the ice clinking in your glass in the background.
Jay Wynn
Yeah, it is. But it just drives me nuts. You know, everybody wants to talk about how good they are. You know, if guys, the thing is, I learned from some really good people in the industry. And I appreciated that. And they’re guys who are still working out there. You know, and I learned a lot from them. And they were nice to have available. So I appreciate that. I just think it’s a good idea to pass along.
Ian Robertson
So that being said, let’s talk about the morality of our industry. So one thing that I noticed is when I talked with some older inspectors, and I guess there’s young guys out there thinking, Ian and Jay, you are the older inspectors.
Jay Wynn
Yeah.
Ian Robertson
But there’s guys out there that are, we’re getting there. But I see that old school mentality of holding secrets and all that. But then those same guys complain about the degradation of our industry. Like this one guy was just like, going at it one day, and he’s like, our industry is falling apart. These new guys, they don’t know a thing. And then he keeps going off. I’m like, finally like, then tell him, tell them everything that you know, so that they know. Well, they have to figure it out for themselves. I’m like, that’s stupid. What teacher ever comes into school and says, these kids just need to figure this out for themselves. That doesn’t make sense.
Jay Wynn
Yeah, it doesn’t. But here’s the thing. I was thinking about this. I think a lot of the older guys and like myself included, come from a trades background, right? And let’s be honest, I wasn’t. I don’t remember which podcast it was on. Oh, yes I do, it was on Facebook etiquette. You were talking about when you were surveying with your uncle. And I’m sitting there going, Yeah, that sounds really familiar. You know, it’s like, you wake up in the morning, and you come into, you know, you come into work, and it’s “hey moron, you’re 10 minutes late”, when you’re really 15 minutes early. And that was how you started the day. And so what I was thinking about is a lot of us cut our teeth in that environment when that’s what you expected. And it just kind of bounced off us. And I, it did serve one purpose that I could think of, and that was it helped to weed out the people that couldn’t cut it. You know, the old grizzled guys that, and seriously, the old grizzled, miserable people, they didn’t have time to waste on somebody that wasn’t going to stick around and wasn’t going to get the job done. So part of the way they thin the herd was by being just brutal to him. I think there’s a lot more downside to it. But you know, that was one thing that I think that, that happened. So I think a lot of us went through that in the trades and growing up and learning. And I think a lot of us carry that through, especially as I see with the old guys. It’s like they want to punish all the young guys till they’ve had their stripes, till they show what they’re worth, and then they’re willing to open up. And I get why it may have happened. But I don’t think we’re there anymore. I think we need to move on.
Ian Robertson
Yeah, because here’s the fallacy of that kind of thinking, in my opinion. So you’re weeding out the herd, but you may have had a really good inspector that you just treat like garbage. And then he moves on to a different career and becomes a really good person, tradesman or professional in another career, and we lose them in the inspection industry. But then you keep the one guy that can handle you. So it’s not a matter of being able to handle the person, being able to handle the, handle who’s mentoring you, you know what I mean? It’s a matter of, yeah…
Jay Wynn
I do. I’m not saying it’s a great way to go.
Ian Robertson
Oh, no, yeah.
Jay Wynn
In fact there’s many more words on the frog than there’s anything else. But that was one thing. I was thinking that, why the old school tradesmen did so much of that, I think anyway. And I mean, I’m talking about, I learned from old guys that were like you, like your uncle.
Ian Robertson
Well, so I guess it comes down to, there was this one guy that said, if you, if you took all the money away from everybody in the world, and you handed everybody, you know, $10, the people that, you know, the people that made all that money to begin with will make all that money again, and people that lost that money will lose it. So it was basically a philosophy in life. If you give 100 people everything you know, the people that weren’t going to use it anyways disappear. And that knowledge doesn’t get, it just goes away. It’s not like you told them a secret that now some lazy jerk that doesn’t know what he’s going to do, steals it and runs a successful business. Instead, the people that would have stuck it out anyways would take that knowledge and build on it and appreciate it. So we don’t need to, we don’t need to have that same crass attitude. We can give it freely because there’s nobody that’s stolen our business, from teaching inspectors, and the guys that have done really well, were guys that were going to do well anyways, we just gave them a good foundation. And now they’re our peers, people that we work with and not against.
Jay Wynn
I have noticed that too. I think it was Kevin Maxwell, when he was on, said that out of the three guys in his, his group. Only two of them ever became full-time home inspectors. When I went through my class, there were 23 of us that got a license about the same time, I’m the only one. The fallout rate is huge in our industry. So if you’ve got somebody that’s going to be around and is going to be, going to be there anyway, why not guide them? Why not help them? Why not put them on your side instead of against you?
Ian Robertson
Yeah, and that’s exactly it. The other thing that I think about is, there was an occasion it was vermiculite nomadic. So, if you don’t know this, in New York State, they actually, New York State came out with a letter saying we don’t care what the test of vermiculite is, you can have a lab test it, but the New York State stance is we assume that all vermiculite has asbestos in it. So I have a copy of the letter, I would actually provide it sometimes when people would start throwing up stink when I call out vermiculite. So, home inspector comes in and says, oh, yeah, this is, you know, rock insulation, you know, or this and that. He wrote down some weird stuff, took a sample, sent it to a lab in Massachusetts, because the New York lab said, no, we’re, we don’t test that anymore, here’s a letter. Sent it to a lab in Massachusetts. I knew the guy. And he was just like, I didn’t, I didn’t know any of this. I’m like, you’ve been an inspector for years. We find vermiculite almost weekly around here in our area. And he just didn’t know. So now it turned into this whole thing. If he, if he had just known. So I explained it to him. I talked with him. I gave him the letter. And he’s like, geez, man, I’m sorry. Like, nope, we can’t take it all back. Don’t worry, the attorneys, and the attorneys all figured it out. And they’re like, oh, yeah, okay, we just got to remove this stuff. It was like 30 grand at the time. That was like 10 years ago. There’s probably more now. But if we don’t want that kind of stuff to happen, we have to teach, it makes our our industry that much better. When guys know what they’re doing. Because how often do you hear, Jay, you know, people say things about home inspectors all the time. Bunch of idiots, washed out contractor, that’s my favorite one. Some guy who couldn’t cut it at McDonald’s. Just sometimes we have such, we take pride, I take pride in my industry. You take pride in your industry. And then we work really hard to have a bunch of people talk bad about us, because there’s some guys out there that weren’t taught. They weren’t shown. And maybe they have potential. So we need to elevate our industry. There’s my little soapbox speech. It’s a morality thing.
Jay Wynn
Well, that’s okay with the soapbox speech. But I think the the advantage of that is that if the industry improves, if the inspectors have a better reputation, a better knowledge base, if we’re more consistent in our, in all of our markets, regardless of what it is, I think everybody benefits, especially the agents because the agents don’t know what we know. But if they can know inspectors are consistent with things, it’s like the the agents that work with me, and what I consider my peer groups, know that we’re going to find mold, if it’s present, we’re going to call it out, if the foundation is bad, we’re gonna spot it. If there’s water intrusion issues, we’re gonna catch it. It’s not like well, what’s going to slide and what’s not. So they know, they know what they have to disclose. They know what they have to talk about. And a lot of them, even when they’re walking through with the clients, they’re able to point stuff out and going, okay, these are the inspectors that, that I refer. And he’s probably going to say this about this, this and this, because I’ve seen him say it before. And I think that’s just a great thing. It takes a lot of the unknown out of what we do. We walk up on a site, we inspect a building. And you know, let’s be honest, sometimes the buyer’s agent is more interested in making the transaction go through so that they can pay the mortgage that month, than they are really looking out for the client. So you can’t assume that the buyer agent is going to watch out for him. But if you can consistently look out for your people, and that’s the industry standard, is all the home inspectors here, here, we’re going to do a great job, and we’re going to watch out for people. How is that not a win? For all of us.
Ian Robertson
You know, it’s interesting, because oftentimes, what’s that expression? You don’t know what you don’t know. Yeah. So guys will oftentimes go through their entire career thinking they know enough until they meet somebody that knows more. And then it takes humility to acknowledge if somebody knows more. I’ll give an example. I’m probably going to regret telling this one, but I do some volunteer work, and there was this building, and they hired a home inspector to come in and inspect it. Inspector said everything was fine. Nothing really wrong with it, they found when they went in to occupy the building, there was a 4 inch gap on the second floor between the wall partition and the floor. And everybody’s looking at it like, that’s not right. So come to find out, the dryer vent vented into the second floor of this building. So, I mean, that’s home inspection 101. You turn on the dryer, and you make sure it goes outside. That’s personally for me, I always check on that, because I’ve found too many dryer vents going into attics and going into wall cavities. This was extreme, he didn’t, didn’t check, was nothing in his report. So ended up having to rip out the entire second floor of this place. And, you know, it was, it was a real mess. He owns a multi-inspector firm and was the lead inspector. So I tried to talk with him. I’m like, oh, hey, and I’m like, hey, you know, we’re weren’t making any promises or anything. But listen, they just want to talk to you. Yeah, I don’t know, what about, whatever, and he just kind of moved on. He’s going to run into a lot more problems, because there’s not going to be people that are as nice as me or the organization that I’m working with. But that’s the thing, you don’t know what you don’t know, if we’ve never been mentored. We, or we never mentor, we create people like that. We can create people that start multi-inspector companies that just don’t know. Him and all his inspectors, none of them are verifying that the dryer vent goes outside. Can you? I don’t know. To me, that’s just wild. That seems like just a very basic thing. Does the dryer vent go outside? Let’s check that, it takes two seconds.
Jay Wynn
Well, yeah, but the other side of this too, is that our industry, it’s, it’s a hard line of work to be in. I mean, every building is a, a unique combination of complex systems that are working against each other and with each other. And we have to figure out all of the intricate details. And we have to do it in a ridiculously short amount of time. Typically with an audience, that’s a high pressure, high emotion, audience, sometimes you got people outright interfering with us, getting in the way, or actively sabotaging or trying to conceal stuff. It’s a really, really hard industry to be in. And you know, I’m gonna be honest with you, when I started it, I never had as much respect for the inspection industry, as I do after doing it for a couple of years. When I got into it, I’m like, wow, this is actually a lot harder than I ever thought it was, when I’ve been in buildings for 25 years. So I’ve been fixing them, taking stuff apart, and I’ve got a good knowledge of the building. But when I had to start inspecting, and making these decisions and putting everything together and doing it fast, that’s the other thing. You can’t take eight hours to look at a building and figure out all the ins and outs, you got to move through, you got to have a system, you got to do it quick. And you got to be right. You just gotta be right, too.
Ian Robertson
And you also have to know everything that’s ever happened with that house, what’s going on right now, and predict the future to a certain extent. Yeah, that’s an intimidating job.
Jay Wynn
It is, you have to envision that house 365 days a year with all of the potential weather and seasons that can hit it, and the multiple variety of uses that people could put it through. Because let’s be honest, the building that’s currently occupied by the retiring couple who’s downsizing and moving to Florida is going to be used very, very differently than the family of six moving in. So you’ve got to keep that in mind as you’re inspecting too. It’s, it’s a difficult line of work. And the guys coming into it, I think we can help them take years off their learning curve and improve our industry at the same time. I’m all for it.
Ian Robertson
I guess that’s my point. Going back to that story. If a guy actually stops and learns from like you, goes and follows you on inspections, learns and takes time and, and somebody’s willing to mentor them. It really lessens situations like that. You know, it really lessens problems later on down the road. Buyers benefit and again, going back to the morality of our industry, our industry is intrical. You cannot outsource us to India, you cannot, you know, punch us into chat GPT and make us make reports. You need us. Yeah. And we are the pivot point in the decision making process for 90% of the transactions out there. We affect people’s lives. So if any, and any profession, needs to have mentoring, it’s us. I think every state should be like Connecticut, you know how Connecticut works? They have a very rigorous program. So all of our listeners from Connecticut, I respect you. They actually do not have a ton of inspectors because it takes a while to become one. And then after you go through the program, I forget how many it is, is quite a few. You have to get, do like 100 inspections mentoring with another inspector and you have to pay them to do that. I think that’s a beautiful program, because you get some great inspectors out of that. Guys know what they’re looking at. They’ve been on live inspections. They know the process that you talked about, oh, man, I really gotta go in and I got to do this. And they’re serious. Yeah. If you’re gonna put that much time, effort and money into it, you have to be serious about your profession. Well, yeah. Whereas New York, yeah, New York. I mean, let’s be honest about New York. I could take the test in my sleep. It’s, what is it? 100 questions, you can find the answers online, the course you can sleep through. It’s really not much of anything to become an inspector in New York. And that’s a licensed state. So now, if you’re in, let’s say, California, Georgia, or several others, you can just start inspecting one day, because there’s no licensing. Now, let me caveat that because I don’t think licensing is necessarily the answer to the problem, though. I think licensing actually makes the problem worse sometimes.
Jay Wynn
No, I don’t. Well, he was, so one of the guys I was, I was working with. He got his mold assessment credentials, because like a lot of us do, he does home inspection. Then he goes and gets his mold assessment credentials. I called him up, we were talking about something else. And I go, hey, I heard your a mold assessor now. And I heard you got your license. What do you think of the class? And he shook his head. And he said, you know what? He said, they had a guy in there that’s been doing this for years. He was, he’s been a licensed assessor. He’s very, he’s in our area. He’s very well known. He’s a great inspector. He was in there. And he was talking with these guys. And he made the comment, he says, you know what, on paper, I have the same credentials now as that guy. But there’s no way I’m even close to his caliber. And I thought, good, here’s, we have somebody that gets it. We got somebody that knows his limitations, that knows that he’s just not, because he’s at that number, he is still not in the same caliber class. And he’s still reaching out and saying, hey, I need help with this, or what about this, he’s gonna go far. He’s gonna do well.
Ian Robertson
So I think that’s the point. And I remember, just to talk to your point there. I remember when licensing came out. And I got my licensing, the licensing came out in New York State. And there was this guy, he was an amazing inspector. He was one of the old school guys didn’t want to share his knowledge and stuff. But I tell you what, you followed him, like, saw one of his reports, and did an inspection on the same house, you’d be like, man, this guy, this guy’s good. But I have the same credentials as him. Yeah, I had just started, never done an inspection. And if I wanted to advertise at that time, I have the same exact credentials as him. Matter of fact, what I did was I went and joined InterNACHI and got a bunch of other credentials. Now I have more credentials than them. He had been inspecting for 25 years, was an engineer. And I have the same credentials as him, crazy. Yeah, I don’t think licensing fixes things in that way. Because when there’s no licensing, you have to live on your own merit. You have to work on your own merit. If you stink, the markets going to correct you out of that market. Whereas in a licensed state, if you stink, you still have a license. And you can still say I have the same qualifications as Jay.
Jay Wynn
Yeah. Well, how many inspectors have you actually heard of ever losing their license in New York?
Ian Robertson
No, I don’t, I don’t know if it’s ever happened. I’ve never heard of it.
Jay Wynn
So i’m sure there’s guys that should not be having a license. You know, I’ve seen some reports. And I’ve come behind guys. And I’m like, this is nothing like the license criteria is, how can these guys legally inspect? So either again, they’re either super ignorant or they’re unethical, and either way, shouldn’t we address this as an industry? Shouldn’t we push this up so that people go, especially the agents go, no, that’s not how you’re supposed to do a home inspection. You’re gonna do it like, like this guy, like this guy, like this guy. These guys are my inspectors. And when they’ve mentioned your name in there, that’s great. And then when they say you’re the cream of the crop, you’re the ones that are setting the standards. These are the guys we’re going to use, not you.
Ian Robertson
Well, and again, that goes back to not having licensing. So if, that’s what I’m saying is you live on your own merit when there’s no licensing. So the market will correct you out of the market. So there’s no, I mean, there’s no licensing for a lot of stuff, in our state anyways, so you have to be a licensed pilot. So you go in and a pilot’s license is on the back of the seat, so you feel all warm and fuzzy. He could be flat out drunk or a terrible pilot, I don’t know. But he’s got a license, so I feel good about it. But now you go to you go to a restaurant, right?
Jay Wynn
Someone that just got out of the class.
Ian Robertson
Yeah, exactly. But you go to a restaurant. That guy’s not a licensed chef. Is he cooking right or not? If the food comes out good and hot and pleasant, you go back, you don’t and nobody, nobody goes back to that restaurant. So imagine if we all lived on merit. That’s what an unlicensed state is. So that’s why if you start a home inspection company in California or Georgia, those are just the two that popped into my head that are unlicensed. You got to know your stuff, you have to be good. You have to get in there and be awesome. Otherwise, you’re just gonna be the restaurant nobody goes back to, whereas if you have a license like in New York, yeah, it’s the same license as Jay. Okay, cool. People get that warm, fuzzy feeling and they move on. Yeah, there’s no policing it.
Jay Wynn
Yeah, that’s it can be very hard to police a licensed state. And that’s, you know, and his point, it was perfect. On paper, I had the same credentials as this guy, there’s no caliber. Exactly.
Ian Robertson
I think the only state that does a really good job, and a really bad job at the same time with policing is Texas with TREC. Well, yeah, they pass out, they pass out fines like candy over there. I don’t know how they, like for like crazy things. I heard of one, not too long ago, where a Texas inspector did not write down weather stripping around a door, and he got a fine for that.
Jay Wynn
Really.
Ian Robertson
That’s a, I don’t know how true that one is. But I’ve actually heard ones that I can actually verify. And I’m like, wow, okay, that’s extreme, but at least it’s keeping it in check. For the most part, most of the licensed, most of the licensed states are not.
Jay Wynn
That sounds like a pay for any kind of arrangement where they’re just going to stick it to you. And this is the cost of doing business. And that’s another conversation.
Ian Robertson
Yeah, we can have a whole other podcast about licensing,
Jay Wynn
I think hand in hand with this is, is teaching, like if you don’t necessarily want to mentor people, are you qualified in the field where you can develop a class and help teach other home inspectors? I know, we have a huge problem in New York finding quality teachers for continuing education for home inspectors. I’ve had, you know, I’ve worked with a school for quite a while. They’re always asking for more guys that are qualified, more guys that can teach classes, they’re always asking if I’m willing to do more, I’m trying to do what I can with it. So I think if you’re really qualified in the field, put together a class and see if you can help teach other guys too, if you, even if you don’t want to do the mentoring, take, you know, two days a year, and go and help teach some of your peers. And then the other side of that is, instead of sitting through continuing ed as just something you have to do to just satisfy the state. If you’re going to be in the continuing ed, participate, contribute, add experiences, see if you can do something that, again, there’s a, there’s a situation where you can help teach others in the class. One of the things I’ve always really enjoyed when I was teaching is taking an ethical question, like, alright, well flows. How many guys in here do well flows? Do you get a bunch of hands go up? What’s your standard? What’s your standard? What’s your standard? Why is that? And have them just go through and defend it. You can turn it, you can have a half an hour 45 minute conversation about why all these different guys are doing it a different way. But what’s their justification? And everybody walks out of that environment with something new to think, about a new perspective, and something that they can try and say, oh, yeah, what I what I’m doing is really, really good compared to these other four guys, or wow, I need to really kick this up. So I really encourage guys that know what they’re doing and have been in it for a while to take up the teachers mantle in a formal sense, in an informal sense.
Ian Robertson
And let’s be honest, it’s that old proverb of I’m a student of all men. Basically, there’s something that you can learn from everyone. So whenever I’ve taken anybody on site with me or taught a class, I’ve always come back, there’s not one time that I can think of where I didn’t come back and say, wow, I didn’t know that, I learned something. I would even start my classes out like that, like, I’ve always learned something from these classes, because somebody brings something up, I remember one of my last classes with the preformed concrete foundations, I learned something about the gravel depth that has to be underneath each one of those preformed foundation blocks, not CMUs but actually the uniform foundations. I won’t get into it a whole, another podcast. But I remember just standing there looking at the guy, and I googled it real quick, and I’m like, I love you. How did I never know that about the gravel depth? And everybody’s looking at me kinda like the agents in the room because there’s agents and home inspectors mixed in there. Like, why are you so enthralled with this gravel thing? But I’m like, this is just, we learned something from people. Everybody has something to bring to the table. You know, what’s your niche? Are you an electrician? Cool? Tell everybody about some electrical stuff that we might be missing. Yeah. You know, or did you install solar panels? Great. I’d love to know why do you guys put the brackets in underneath the shingles but put the screw through the top of the shingle. Explain to everybody why that happens. You know, that’s the best way to do it. That’s, that’s how everybody learns from you.
Jay Wynn
Yeah, that’s it’s a good way of learning. Take a formal class and I’m gonna tell you why. If you really want to test your knowledge as an inspector. Stand up in front of eight to 20 other guys that do it day in and day out. And you’ll see whether you know something or not. And I mean, that was, that was one of the real intimidate, frankly, that’s just scared the snot out of me is like, I’m gonna get in front of these guys that know way more than I do. And I’m going to tell these guys how to do it. But I had enough to share. And my attitude is just this, I’ll teach until someone better comes along, till someone more qualified comes along, then I’ll step aside, and I’m, I’m good with that. But till then, this is what I got to offer, let’s see if we can all take something out of it. And I have found honestly, that if you approach the class situation with that attitude, guys have loved it, they know it’s going to be worth their time, they’re going to get to participate, they’re going to walk away with something, it’s not just going to be sitting there wasting time and money so that they satisfy some state requirements, it’s going to be the, the day was, was at least worth their time to be there. And that says a lot too. So just start teaching, share your knowledge, we have to do it. I think so.
Ian Robertson
Yeah, no, I’m in 100% agreement. So if we are an old school home inspector, or we just have any kind of experience, think about mentoring. Next time some guy calls you or we see some guy in the Facebook forums or a NACHI forum or whatever, saying, hey, is anybody in XYZ city willing to let me do a ride along? Jump in. Say yeah, why don’t you come and talk with me? If we’re a new guy, consider asking around, I’ll be honest with you, it’s not easy. If your area, guys don’t want to share the secrets. Cool. But also think about your approach. You know, do you want to go in there and like interrupt the inspection? Or, you know, just ask too many questions or demand information. Or you may be like, hey, listen, let me be your lackey. Let me plug in some outlet testers and open and close windows for you. And then let them pour out the knowledge, either way, approach it the right way. One thing I, one thing I will say is that these mentorships, and things like that just don’t happen. They have to be made. I’ve never taken anybody on site that I didn’t know well, or meet in person and talk to them first. I don’t want some guy sitting there with a shirt untucked, unshowered, wearing the Yankees cap, putting a cigarette out in the person’s living room. You show up, we have lunch together, we’ll talk. I want to know you first. Yeah. And that’s, that’s the same thing.
Jay Wynn
That’s a really, that’s a great point for the new guys. I have standards, I have high standards, just don’t take everybody along with me. And that’s something we should throw out there too. I screen the guys that I’m going to take. And it’s at least a couple of conversations with them, and usually at least an hour face to face, sometimes more, and it goes through. Okay, if you’re coming with me, do you have a realistic understanding of what you’re getting into, this is what’s expected. This is how I expect you to behave. And it’s everything, like you said, you’re going to brush your teeth, and you’re not going to show up hung over, you’re going to comb your hair, tuck in your shirt, this is the way we present, this is how we do it, you want to learn, this is the standard we hold to. And frankly, there have been some guys that I’ve said, no, we’re not going to be a good fit. And I’ve had to say, you know, I’m not going to, I’m not going to do this. But a lot of the guys that have approached me have been real serious about it, they wanted to do it. They take the feedback, they show up, they listened to what I tell them. You know, there’s one guy showed up in a Boston Red Sox hat. And I said, don’t ever do that again, you know, you might come across a Yankees fan, it’s the last thing I need. So he just didn’t know, didn’t think about it. Yeah, this is what he did. And he and he didn’t do it again. So you know, they gotta be willing to tow the line too. Because if you are going to mentor somebody, you’re going to help groom them, you are to some degree putting your stamp on them. I don’t particularly encourage people to trade on my name. So that’s something we don’t encourage. So they don’t get to say yeah, I learned with with Jay and they don’t get to play up Bluejay, they don’t get to piggyback off my, my, anything that I’ve built, I expect them to build their own. And we make that very, very clear to them too. So I have standards for the guys coming up. And the thing I’m going to say is that most of the guys that really want to do it, they’re going to be in the industry anyway. And just, you know, like you said, good guys coming up. They’re going to be your competition one way or the other. Groom them, get them on your side, help them get it, help them start, improve our industry. Show them how pricing structure works. Talk to them about liability. This is how you avoid being sued. This is how you run a business. And then you have a successful guy who’s not coming into the market charging a third of your price so that he can have some kind of market share and cutting everybody’s throat. He doesn’t know anything. You know, it’s just a good, good move.
Ian Robertson
I think that’s probably one of the best points so far. One of the biggest gripes that we have is the death of our industry. Because we don’t charge enough, we make less now than we ever have in the existence of our industry, if you take in inflation, so the average inspection fee now is slightly higher than it was in 1996 still. So that’s the dollar amount, which means we make about 40 to 50% less than we did in the 90s. So teach them that stuff. A guy that’s well equipped, confident, has the software they need, has the knowledge they need, will go out and charge a fair price. So we won’t sit in our living room griping about the guy that charges $200, $250 for a full home inspection, when we’re 450, 500. Yeah, control the narrative. That’s kind of, it helps build our industry. It’s gonna encourage more guys like that. Yeah. Yeah, agents and buyers always like, oh, man, it’s hard to find a good home inspector. Well it won’t be if we charge enough, because guys that are worth their money will go into other industries to make more money where they know they can get, they can get that rather than stay in home inspection, so we want to keep really good guys in the industry, let’s show them, here’s the pricing structure, cost you $125 to get out of bed, by the way. So make sure you work that into your cost. Spend a lot of time with your clients, spend a good amount of time writing your report. And you’ll have a successful business happy clients, and it’ll just go well.
Jay Wynn
So I think again, I think it’s a win win win situation all the way around for everybody. It’s worked for me, I enjoy it. I’ve seen no blowback, and I’ve seen absolutely no, nobody’s cut into my business. And my book is full. My inspection fee is high. I’m doing really good at what I do, I have more work than I can handle. Just share it with people, share what you know.
Ian Robertson
I think that’s a, I think that’s a beautiful point, you have one of the highest inspection fees in our area, if not the highest, you are one of the busier home inspectors in our area. And people, you have a full calendar. And you don’t really have any problems with other inspectors. You’re a good example of why we should get into mentoring and helping other inspectors. So I tell you what, Jay, I’m out of Lagavulin. I don’t know how you’re doing on yours.
Jay Wynn
I’m empty.
Ian Robertson
I think that’s a good end to our podcast. Thank you so much for being on. Drinking with Jay, one of my favorite segments. So thank you very much.
Jay Wynn
Yeah, it’s always fun to talk a little shop and just share some ideas.
Ian Robertson
Yeah, same here. You have a great night and sorry for the knock knock joke at the beginning, but I think it was worth it.
Jay Wynn
No, you’re not.
Ian Robertson
No. I’m not. Have a good night, Jay. Thank you very much.
Outro: On behalf of myself, Ian, and the entire ITB team, thank you for listening to this episode of inspector toolbelt talk. We also love hearing your feedback, so please drop us a line at [email protected].
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