What are Signs of Emotional Abuse?

This transcript is raw/unedited.


Hello, my name is Jessica Knight, and this is the relationship recovery podcast. In last week's episode, we dove into the topic of will the abuser toxic person manipulator change, which is typically the first thing someone asks on a clarity call. If they are in a toxic relationship, they really wanna know if the other person is going to change. So today I want to take a step back and talk about what exactly is emotional abuse in the first place, which is a really tough thing to define. And as I worked on the content for this podcast, I kept thinking how complex it really is. And so if there is a topic that we touch on today that you either need more information on, or you'd like me to speak more about, just send me an email, Jessica Jessica Knight, coaching.com, or you can DM me on Instagram at Jessica night coaching.


So emotional and verbal abuse as displayed in the movies typically looks very controlling. It is like very overt. It's very obvious, and it can look like telling somebody what to do, who to talk to looking in someone's phone, telling them what they can't do. And while that does happen in I've actually never worked with a woman with those specific issues. I usually work with people who have much more covert and manipulative issues going on. So this podcast is going to address just that it's going to address the more manipulative covert abuse that can have you questioning what the is going on and asking yourself if you are crazy, because emotional abuse can be hard to name. And a lot of the behaviors have become normal in society. Emotional abuse can be really hard to identify, which makes it even harder for the victim to be taken seriously when they reach out for help, it makes it even harder for somebody to stand, understand their own reality.


If when they go to somebody for help and they can't even frame what's going on, they feel even crazier. And so part of my work is helping women understand if they are having normal relationship problems or if they are being manipulated. In my case, even after I was given an intervention by my therapist where she literally called me out of the blue, like randomly, I was in my car and said, Jessica, I am really worried about you. I don't know how to tell you this, because I don't think you're going to receive it, but you are in an emotionally abusive relationship. She then sat on the call with me for an hour telling me the ways in which she sees it and what she thinks I should do and how I can heal. And I distinctly remember her saying, you're strong enough to leave now, but I worry that soon you won't be.


I want to be able to tell you that I left the relationship that day or when I got off the call, but I didn't. I was still in denial  I thought I was just being dramatic, but the writing was on the wall and you know, I'd come to learn that the behavior was textbook. I just, I mean, I wanted it not to be true and I actually never ended up leaving the relationship. He broke up with me. And so, you know, I was sitting in so much shame and I constantly wondered, what did this say about me? How the did I get myself here? And that's what a lot of people feel in situations like these. And so in my case, it was important almost obsessively to learn the habits and patterns of use. So I no longer doubted myself and my reality because emotional abuse is any kind of psychological abuse.


It can be verbal, it can be constant criticism, it could be intimidation or even more subtle tactics like manipulation or just constant displeasure are with you. It is ongoing. And eventually it does erode your self-esteem so that you no longer even notice that it's happening because you think you deserve it. And so in discussing some of the signs of emotional abuse and how they present in relationships, my hope is that you can compare your story and ask yourself, is this abuse? Am I being abused? Does my partner respect me? But before we get there, I want to start here. Emotional abuse is usually born out of relationships that appear really healthy. And usually from people that appear healthy. And so when we talk about narcissism, we typically talk about love bombing, where usually the male partner will shower the other person with attention and affection, compliments, flattery, and essentially creates this context.


And this container where she feels like she met her soulmate, it's effortless, and the victim will get attached to this feeling. You know, she'll feel like he loves me. They're there for me. Nobody will love me. Like they love me. And so when questionable behavior starts to trickle in, later on, they don't really know how to understand it. It person's supposed to love them. It's supposed to be their soulmate, but the abuse can't maintain the mass that they had when they started the relationship. And so while you a healthy person spent weeks or months with somebody who felt different than everybody else, you soon realized that you were holding onto your version, the, the version of what you saw for a short time and he's gone yet. He usually shows up in small flickers throughout the relationship. So that you're reminded of how amazing he can be. If you are wondering why this happens. That is a very loaded question that will not be addressed in this podcast. I will say this, if an abuser acted abusive at the beginning of the relationship, you would've never entered the relationship.


So as we approach, what does emotional abuse look like? What are signs of emotional abuse? I'm going to go through some of these. And I will that a lot of there's. So, so, so much more on this topic and I'm gonna touch the ones that I have seen the most in my practice and in my life. And I wanna start with control. So there's over overt ways of control. You know, you might, it, they might demand to know where you are. That's not coming from a place of curiosity, but more like, I need to know what you're doing and where, where you are and who you're with. You might not feel like you have the freedom to make your own choices, like who you hang out with or who you talk to. You might feel like you don't get to decide what to do with your time, but there's other ways this comes up too, like constantly texting you when you are friends with an issue, a problem, or, you know, for example, it's like, you're finally out with your friends and all of a sudden, or every single time they're sick or they don't, or they have a major crisis.


And it's like, really, every single time I meet with my girlfriends happens.


If you say that you wanna do something, they might say back to you, do you really wanna do that? Why would you wanna do that? Like say, you're like, I wanna run the Boston marathon. And you're like really committed to the training. And you're really excited. They might say something to you. Like, you sure takes a lot of work. You don't have the commitment for that. It's gonna take up so much of your time. They might even have suggestions on how you spend your time and treat you differently if you don't do it. So if they tell you that you should be relaxing when you're actually super behind on work, and then they judge you for not relaxing, when you are super behind on work, , that's them trying to control you so that they most likely don't have to feel a discomfort probably of their own laziness. That one can be quite loaded though. We'll talk about that again. Another time.


And so the victim, most often due to this all feels like a loss of sense of an individual. And over time, it really erodes that sense of self, where you have the ability to make a decision for yourself. And in, you know, my history, I remember feeling like I need to show up a certain way to not make my partner mad at me. I need to come in with a smile. Even if I'm not happy, I had to accept that they didn't wanna see my friends. That if, you know, I asked him to go somewhere. He wouldn't wanna go and I had to deal with it. And that was controlling, but there's a underlying element here. And this is probably the most important thing I will say today. The abuser will control the way that they feel through you. They don't like feeling painful emotions like, or sadness or guilt or even discomfort. They will try and control your emotions because they can't control their own. You see this often when they make a mistake or let you down the conversation or a situation becomes about your reaction rather than their action. , I've seen in many cases, an abuser go to lengths to feel, to avoid feeling. It's almost as if they are controlling their ability to not be wrong.


And this, this brings us to you. The next one I wanted to touch on today, which is anger. And so Lindy Bancroft, who wrote, why does he do that inside the minds of angry and controlling men, which is a really good book for understanding abusive behavior. I had such a resistance to it for some time, and I had no idea why, but it has a, I mean, it's very thick. It's maroon. I think it like even the text on it seems very scary. But once I finally picked it up, it was enlightening. And there's actually a free copy of it online, which I will put in the show notes.


But Lundy Bancroft says,  your abusive partner. Doesn't have a problem with his anger. He has a problem with your anger. One of the most basic rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him. No matter how badly he treats you, he believes that your voice shouldn't rise and your blood shouldn't boil. The privilege of rage is reserved for him alone. And when your anger does jump out of you, as it will happen to any abused woman from time to time, he is likely to try to jam it back down your throat, as quickly as he can. Then he uses your anger against you to prove what irrational person you are. And so, while it is normal for partners to raise their voice, occasionally in a dis it's not normal. It is not normal in caps, underlying bold stars. It is not normal when disagreements regularly escalate to yelling and shouting and screaming.


And if you feel afraid, it's okay that you feel afraid. The other person does not have a right to tell you that you're not. You have a right to your own feeling of fear. If somebody is screaming at you, you have the right to be afraid yelling, especially when it comes from one partner, 90% of the time makes the conversation nearly impossible and creates an imbalance of power because only the loudest person in the room will be heard. My, one of my exes used to constantly say, you know, only when I get this mad, you finally hear me. And I would say, yeah, because I I'm terrified right now. Like I I'm hearing you cause there's no other option. Cause I need this to end. Not because I want to, but I've also surrendered to the idea that you're never gonna hear me.


And a lot of that was said in my own head and not out loud, but over time, especially if you stay in a relationship that this happens constantly, it paralyzes you. And in my situation, I could not leave for months. I would sit there and get yelled at and escalated fights. And I would try to get my point across. I would try and feel heard. Eventually I was able to get up and walk out when he started yelling. But I, when I say it took literal months, it did, I had to be willing to be told I was wrong. I had to be willing to sit with the fact that he was not going to understand me and that, you know, walking out is what I needed to do to show up for myself. It took a really long time. Actually it took the relationship ending for that to be able to happen the way I held help clients figure out if the anger or the disagreements that they're in the middle of are abusive or not is one.


I ask how consistent this is. And when you ask him him to stop, does he, and two, do you have, are you able to have tough or vulnerable conversations that do not lead to an outburst? Usually in a toxic relationship, it's not easy for a person to express their feelings. They, and you make your partner feelings more important than your own. You may feel that if you express a need or a feeling or a situ or do have a situation, then you're wrong. You may find yourself feeling belittled. So for example, you might tell your partner, Hey, it really upsets me that you find a way to see all your friends, but you don't take time to see me and I miss you. And I would like some quality time with you. Is there a way that we can, like, you can do both and they might say, here you go again.


You want all my time, it just shuts you down. They get defensive before you're even able to speak. If my partner came to me and felt we weren't spending enough time together, even if I felt like all my time was spent with him, I would think about what he was saying. And if I had a varying viewpoint, I'd discuss it with my partner so that they felt heard in an abusive situation, you express a feeling and you were told you're wrong.  somebody once told me that if any, anything that is not nurturing is abuse. And I didn't know what that meant. And I still don't really fully know what that means. But when I really start to think about how some of these things show up in relationship, I often ask myself, is this an active nurture? Is this coming from a place where I can feel my partner cares for me?


When you feel like you need to defend yourself in every interaction constantly, there isn't room for you to be able to talk openly and honestly, or even to resolve an issue. It's like you have to walk into a situation with your guard up. Instead of feeling like you can enter the conversation, knowing that your partner's there and wanting to listen to you, they are already on defense. Their guard is up before you've even opened your mouth. I've experienced this quite a bit in romantic relationships. In one way that I've noticed this come up is when I express how I feel about something, they may say things like, why are you bringing this up again? We talked about this once. You're so sensitive, you find a problem with everything. You're just wanting to control something  and all it does is just shut you down. And so if you are feeling this way, I want you to ask yourself, do I feel like I need to defend my position or does my partner try to understand me when they talk to me or they trying to understand where I'm coming from? When I'm in a relationship, I try really hard or to understand the other person's brain. We all come from different upbringings and different histories and have different experiences. And it's oh, I, I mean, and I'm also fascinated by people. So I always want to understand who you are and where you came from and how you think about things. And an abusive person will typically not see this as curiosity, but see, this is you trying to nitpick.


And so, you know, another, another thing that I've noticed is that despite my, I guess, increased level of vulnerability, I'm very vulnerable here. I'm very vulnerable with clients. And I have a really hard time saying how I feel to romantic partner out of fear, what they will think often I try and take it. The, you did my own book and just own the fact that I'm nervous. I'd say something like I'm nervous to talk about this, but it's really important to me. And when I'm constantly met with the defense, or if you're constantly met with defense, when you are so nervous to bring something up one, it should be a red flag to you that this is the only area that you're nervous. Second, it is a red flag that they are constantly pushing back when you ex express your feelings. And so, so far we've touched on control, contempt, um, yelling, blaming.


And so that's actually bringing up an issue that came up in one of my past relationships. Um, I was in this space, I was in the space quite often. I was just not feeling like I could speak my feelings. And cuz when I did, I was sort of like told I was wrong and I was constantly having this feeling of, I wish I just never spoke. And I remember like he picked out up on it. He picked up, I was being quiet and kept pushing me to speak, kept reminding me it felt safe. I remember him like holding my hand and being like, Jess look, whatever is going on. Just talk about it. And I eventually, after like 20 minutes of this, I finally said like, look, I I'm insecure about this thing. And I understand that 90% of this is me and it's just, it's tough to name it.


It's tough to talk about it. And what I really wanted after, especially that much pushing from their end was for them to be able to hear me for them to be able to say like, babe, I don't want you to feel that way. Um, what can I do? Let's can we hash this out a little more? Maybe even like, we don't have a ton of time right now, but I do wanna talk to you about this. I definitely wanna help you not feel this way. I understand you're saying it's 90% you, but let's look at the 10% me. And like I opened up and I expressed what it was and I got immediately stole wall, which we will John in a second. Um, I was basically told I'm wrong. I'm ridiculous. I'm impossible. I don't trust them. And he then proceeded to drive very fast to the next destination and didn't talk to me and then didn't talk to me the rest of the night and long story short, I didn't feel any more secure to express my emotions. And so I mentioned stonewalling and passing there. So I wanna expand on that for a second. And this one can


Be hard to explain and conceptualize because there are times that you will need to shut down for protection. But the difference is that the abuse person will shut down to protect themselves. But the abuser shuts down to control the conversation. And while this absolutely happens in per sin, it could also happen in texting where somebody will shut down any uncomfortable conversation. And this happens because they're uncomfortable. I mean you are too, but they are doing it because of their uncomfort discomfort. They don't want to feel the feeling of discomfort. So they shut down and control it with, at the refusal to discuss anything. Most likely you've also hit a nerve. One that they know is true and can't handle.


And this will make you feel like your feelings are rejected. And so for a while, it didn't quite understand how this manifested so much, but more. I thought about it. The more I realized that the most common example I've seen in a client is when the toxic person asks for FA space, but it's in the middle of a fight. Like guns are already blazing and it's immediately to stop you from speaking. Usually this is like an uncommunicated. This is with an uncommunicated and unknown timeframe attached to it. So it's like, you. I'm not talking to you about this anymore.


If this happened in reverse, they would never allow it to happen. You know, what would probably happen in reverse is when you say you need space to calm down, take space, you can return to the conversaton. The abuser will likely tell you that you're being angry, defensive or aggressive. Other example, examples of stonewalling include giving the silent treatment abruptly, walking away, avoiding conflict, avoiding eye contact, acting busy, minimizing your concerns or aggressive body language. I remember in a past relationship trying to set a boundary. I said something like, I'm sorry, I can't talk about this right now. Like I need a few days. And this had, this had been after like a very exhausting three months going back and forth with over the same thing when we've already been broken up. And it was that boundary for me was really hard to set. It took three months of endless journal enjoys like 12 therapy sessions to really essentially get me to say, I can't make your concern.


My concern right now, I have tried for months, please gimme a few days to do us calm down and to see this clearly in response. After asking a bunch of clarifying questions that were masked as trying to get me to feel stupid for what I was saying, I was told I was being defensive and deflecting because what underlines all the stonewalling is blame. And according to love and abuse.org blame is the foundation of domestic violence while it made, be theoretically possible to dominate another person without using blame it in a, in domestic relationship, blame is essential to both implementing and disguising power and control blame places, all of the responsibility for one's actions, consequences and feelings to another person and insist that you must agree. And once blame starts, it's really hard for it to stop. They have convinced themselves that you are wrong. They probably believe that they are trying to help themselves or the relationship by bringing your flaws to light. But that is not possible because they are not taking responsibility for their actions or their side of the street responsibility would imply like a change that they would say, you know, here's where I'm responsible and here's how I'm going to work on it.


And so we know what overt blame looks like you did this. This is your fault. You did this to make me angry. You forced me to be this angry, but I want to give a few examples of some less obvious ways that blame shows up in an abusive relationship. The abuser will constantly shift the focus onto your behaviors. This is a core maneuver in an abusive relationship. Like for example, instead of focusing on how they had plans with you and forgot about them, they will focus on the fact that you were upset that the plan is no longer happening. I E rather than taking a accountability, they focus on your upsetness and then get mad at you. So you end up apologizing for wanting the plan that they agreed to to happen.


I've also seen clients not express upset because they don't want you get into trouble with the abuser, but the abuser still finds a way to blame them. So they don't have to feel feelings. The abuser will take on the role of being the victim. All of the results of their life are your fault. They aren't sleeping well, even though you went to sleep hours before them, your fault they're slap slacking at work must be because you text 'em at one point during the day and that unraveled their day, they, they are not prioritizing relationship with friends. It must be because you've asked them to do something that they've agreed to during the same time that a friend asked them to do something that they can't do because they already previously agreed to do something with you. A healthy person looks at their choices and oh, I'm gonna rephrase that to a healthy person. The consequ of their choices are theirs to own. A healthy person would communicate. I'm really struggling at work. This is what's going on. And if there is a U role, they might ask for space, they might ask for something during their time working, they wouldn't blame their results on you.


An abusive person will also talk constantly about all the things they did and do for you, especially with an escalated emphasis. This is like an attempt to obligate the other person, you to respond the way that they want you to want you to give in. They want you to see that you're ridiculous. They want you to see how much they're doing for you in their mind, so that you can't express your feelings. They will insist that there is a right and a wrong way to do things. This is sometimes called a superiority complex , but they will hold you to that standard of what they say is right and wrong. Even if you don't agree with it. And this is done to ensure that they win not you, they will label the other person's point of view as crazy or irrational. And this can be done to any disagreeing point of view, but it's often used to discount in other person's feelings or perceptions.


So if you've been labeled as crazy, too sensitive or asking for too much, this all falls under this category, and they will also talk endlessly about reason of the reasons that they do something, but avoid talking about the action of what they're doing. I E to justifying. So everybody has quote unquote, good reasons for why they do what they do. No, one's gonna say I'm a person. So I decided to do a thing, but if their actions and how they control their actions are not the focal point. If they want to talk about out the good intention behind their really action, then they're not taking accountability and responsibility for what they're doing wrong.


If their intentions were actually pure, you would not be being abused. And so the final thing that we are going to talk about today is gas lighting. This is obviously extremely mainstream it's, you know, on every Instagram account you've ever seen, but in a healthy relationship, you typically don't want your partner to feel upset because of their treatment of you. That would be mortifying, but all often when the person on the receiving end brings up their issue and they are told that they are the problem, which exactly is what leads to gas lighting. And so gas lighting is when somebody convinces you, that what you saw you didn't see what you heard. You're not hearing what you say. You felt you didn't feel or have no reason to feel it's a serious abuse tactic to convince you that your reality is false. It is a serious form of psychological torture.


So despite the a hundred, you know, Instagram posts about gaslighting, it is a serious areas form of psychological torture, gaslighting causes people to doubt their memories and their judgment and their sanity. And the things that they say would, might be dismissed as false or crazy or stupid. It can be extremely overt. So for example, you agreed to blank and the other person will say, no, I didn't. You can be like, yep, here's the text. And be like, I don't know what you're talking about, or it can also be very covert. And so the example that I'm going to give you is actually a little bit of both. I . And so I, this was a few months ago, I was in a post breakup, disagreement, you know, the best kinds of disagreements. And I remember, you know, I had said a million times, like you created somebody in your mind who done doesn't exist and that's the person you're mad at.


You're not mad at me. You didn't give me the actual chance to be me. If you just showed up for who I was. And for what I was asking for, we wouldn't be in the situation right now. And the situation was actually travel. And I think it was pro like almost a year before this point, I had a call with my coach and I told her, I was like, debunking this. I was like, my partner travels. COVID, O's lifting a bit and some insecurities are coming up for me. And this is what they sound like and feel like. And here's the me part. Here's where my insecurity is my job. But here's what I feel like I need to ask from him. What I asked at the time was can I have a general idea of your schedule? I understand it changes. Just gimme like, you know, the bare bones.


I'm supposed to be this place at this time. And then I'll be back probably around this time. And then I get dinner with whatever, that's it. If we can, can we talk once a day, two minutes FaceTime, if not, I get it. Understand, let that go. And can I just get a text when you get home? It was one of these situations where he'd be like drinking very late at night and I in various cities and it just made me feel better to wake up the next morning, knowing I was gonna see a text from my partner saying home, I love you goodnight. That's all I asked for.


I remember him telling me that he couldn't travel because of me and me being like what? And, and I was like, I don't accept that. And I just was like, Nope, no, like this one, no. And he was like, I couldn't travel. You wanted to talk to me constantly. You needed to know everything that I was doing. And I was like, that is a hundred percent not the things that I asked for. And I reflected back to that LA that conversation I had with my coach at that time where she told me a, I was showing up healthy. She was like, what you're asking for is the bare minimum here. That's okay. You're allowed to ask for these things. And it was too much apparently, but it wasn't just that it was too much for them. It was that with they needed to escalate it and change it and then throw it back to me.


That really made me wonder what is going on? Like, what am I thinking? Like, did I ask for something that I didn't actually ask for? And I, in that moment, I remember a second being in a spiral of defense and then being able to breathe and say, no, no, I that's not what I said. That's not even what I wanted. And they continued to tell me that's exactly what I wanted. And I said, I, I mean, if you're getting some something out of believing that that's great, but that is not at all what I wanted. And when I drove home that night, it was almost as if like every other time I'd ever been gas lit was just downloading of every time I was told what I thought and what I felt. And it was a lot, um, when I do talk about gas in a, probably the next episode, I will talk about the process of UN gaslighting yourself and what that looks like.


But just to conceptualize this a little bit more and kind of wrap it up, gas lighting, you know, is when, well, I guess like, this is how gas they might show up for you. You might apologize without knowing what you did wrong. Um, you may try to explain how you feel, but you get dismissed or you're told you're overreacting or hypersensitive. They might insist that it didn't happen that way. You may find yourself questioning the beliefs and opinions as if your point, your point of view, doesn't match theirs. It's wrong. You edit every word before you speak change, you know, and you sort of like change your thoughts so that you're per, Zening this in a way that doesn't get a reaction out of them. And they assign motives to your actions that are opposite of your intentions. And there's actually another quick example here too.


I had ordered groceries from Amazon for, and they delivered at my door and I had to bring my dog or our dog at the time to my boyfriend's house. And I remember like, I got the groceries. I opened, the bags, took out the frozen stuff. And I looked down and realized that they GA they gave me the wrong bag. There's like 12 cans of coconut milk in there. And I'm like, I, okay. And then two bags of beef jerky. I don't eat beef jerky, but it looked very expensive and like very bougie. So I grabbed the beef jerky to bring to his house a few days later. I mean, before that he had asked me, he had to be like, I'm on a health kick. Here's the healthy things I'm eating. And I had remembered my brother being on a health kick and he was eating a lot of beef jerky.


So I was like, oh, I'll just give this to him. And we will, you know, move on if he doesn't wanna, he'll throw it out. Total of like maybe four thoughts that went into this. I bring it over. I hand it to him. I not only ended up getting in trouble for bringing an unhealthy snack, but I also was told to stop buying things. He said, I told you to stop buying me things. And I said, I didn't buy this. Like this was. And I thought it was fine when I left. It was not fine. In a later argument, I got told that I ordered that and that I ordered it to bring it over, to give to him. And I was like, I, I did not do that. I mean, you could look in my Amazon history and I was told I was wrong.


And it, it, it like, it really, it really shook me. It really shook me the, the up, you know, but one of the reason that lighting works is because it creates a power imbalance, but the power imbalance is created on how you feel about things that you think it's absolute insanity. And so one of the things I will say over and over again, is that nobody gets to tell you who you are and nobody gets to tell you how you feel. So if you feel like you're going crazy, you have the right to your own emotions and feelings.

Speaker 2: (38:34)
And so I'm going to leave it there for today. And I know this was a lot. This was, I mean, in all honesty, it was a lot for me to get through too. Um, and if you're feeling like you are on an emotional rollercoaster, you feel like your thoughts are just going a little nuts after this thing to this. I just wanted you to ask yourself about how honest you're being about your relationship to the people who care about you. If you're sugarcoating things or hiding things that's questionable. I also wanna ask you if you are honest with your life coach or your therapist, because if you're not, and you're hiding things, there's probably a pattern of you being afraid to talk about how you feel.


And so this is the work that, you know, not only having personal experience with, I also have a lot of on, and it is really hard. It's really hard because nobody knows how to talk to somebody who is going through it. They don't realize that how hard it could be to leave. They don't realize how gas lit and confused you are. They don't realize like, you know, what's going on in your head and how it might feel impossible to walk away. It's really important to have somebody in your life that understands. And unfortunately, if they're not trained on it or they haven't gone through it, there's a really good chance that they're not gonna understand. So just be mindful of who you've been to. If somebody is like telling you, you could just cut them out. Like essentially, they're kind of just being abusive to you too, cause they're not understanding where you're at.


And so like with everything, I, I really do hope that this was helpful. I really do want you to reach out to me if you need some help, I do offer free clarity sessions. So even if is not right for you, you can still book one of those with me. Um, and I, I am here to help. And if I can't help, you know, or if there are financial restraints in some way, I will do my best to meet you where you are. But I also will be happy to share resources with you if needed.  I know how hard this is. If you've gotten this long or this far on the podcast, I want you to know that I am really sorry that you're going through what you went through or that you're going through. And there is another side to this. It's just, it does take a lot to get there. So thank you for listening and please do reach out if you need support.