Welcome to the Creative pen podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur. Bringing you interviews ins inspiration and information on writing craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots more at the creative pen dot com, and that's Penn with a double n. And here's the show. Hello Creative. I'm Joanna Penn. And this is episode number 763 of the podcast and it is Friday, the 20 sixth of July 20 24 as I
record this. In today's show, I'm talking to Anna Sa lane about why she decided to pivot genres after her first 4 books in a series failed to hit her financial and Career goals as an author. And how she then discovered 19 twenties mystery researched it and now how she is writing and branding to market and doing much better. So it is a really good discussion, and that coming up in the interview section. In publishing things. Well, Kinder has a useful art call on Amazon Kd account
suspension. A lot of common reasons why it happens, things like data violations, low quality content and manipulative practices or at least their algorithm perceiving these things happened even if you didn't do anything, as well as how to prevent suspensions and what to do if it does happen. So this is a a super useful article.
I don't think you need to be scared about it if you are just being a normal author, but it is something to look at and certainly if it has pins, and it does happen to some people to whom it shouldn't happen. So have a look at that, that song can Opener links in the show notes. Also, some very very good news for people selling direct to European Union countries, like me.
Since 20 14, and I've been doing this since before 20 14, and I remember when these came in when they put in the Eu digital vat rules, which they put in with a 0 threshold, which put a lot of people out of business. Pay hip started to deal with this a lot of other places have dealt with this, but what it meant is even if you sold 1 ebook to France in a whole year, for example, or Germany or any of the other Netherlands whatever, you would have to pay that government some
tax. And then those of us who did this. We got the 1 stop shop. So, for example, I'm registered in the Netherlands. I pay to the Netherlands on behalf of the whole of the Eu. But from January 20 25, this is the good news. They are introducing thresholds, which will mean most India offers won't need to pay digital sales tax. Similar to the thresholds in Australia, Japan, India, and other places. Then these wells are meant to be for big companies, not for
individual authors. So this is great news. First of all, for the authors who've been dick trying to deal with it for over a decade, including myself, and I have spent more money on being compliant, than I have made from Eu sales. But it's always been a bit of a point of principle for me since I feel European, then I wanted to sell into the Eu. But, yes, it's certainly been an out of pocket. Pain for me and made people either just haven't sold into
the Eu at all. They've just excluded all of the Eu or they have been non compliant on this, and I know a lot of authors who just haven't bothered. So this is really good news. I'll linked to this in the Shane eights. A butter, a patron sent this to me, and I was like, oh, this is so great. I mean, it's taken more than a decade for them to fix this for small businesses.
But happy that it is now happening. And if you're in the Eu, various countries in the Eu, then this might mean you have a lot more options because small companies will be able to sell Ebooks, audiobooks, and I know places like, I think it was Etsy that used to sell recipes and things like this, people just pulled out. So interesting times.
There was also a really wonderful article from psychological suspense author charlotte duck work this week here in the Uk, which I thought I share as it is a lot of mindset stuff Impostor syndrome. The article is called some honest thoughts about the Har Crime writing festival. Now this is a prestigious Crime rating festival here in the Uk run by some of the most successful traditionally published crime authors, publishers agents It is traditional publishing through and through. In these
don't really go. They're not very represented. There are some there, but it's very traditionally published. I've been several times. And every time I've gone, I definitely felt all the things she talks about. Now, Charlotte is traditionally published with 5 books. So she's not a newbie. At this, she shares... It's so quite a long article. I'm only gonna share some bits and bobs, but she shares things she loves about
Har. So it is great to get away think about your career meet up with people, you know and people in the community, and also she shares a list of things. She doesn't love. And then also shares a whole load of things you will not see in the smiling selfies and Instagram pictures that you might have seen about Har, and it was last week, I actually did have a ticket I was going this year, but then I got Covid.
So I thought I share as you might find some of these things resonate plus, it gives a real insight into traditional publishing. She says, what you don't see in all those shiny happy pictures is all the social anxiety that's inevitable when you get a bunch of introverts together and shove them all in a big tent for 3 days. What you don't see all the people doing quick turns to avoid publishers or agents who have rejected them or made a mess of publishing their books.
What you don't see are all the list authors who were once promising debut, now left feeling like stale old bread. As a new barrel load of fresh meat is wheeled in and given public chaperone and limited edition proofs and signing events and panel spots. What you don't see are all the authors desperately trying to get introduced to 1 of the hotshot authors in the hope of getting a selfie with them and boosting their own profile by proxy.
What you don't see is the crippling anxiety that so many authors feel as they take a deep breath and leave their hotel room alone to face the tent. Crossing fingers that they'll see a friendly face quickly and won't be left d around the periphery, desperately looking for someone to talk to And this this is making me smile because I have been exactly in this situation situation so many times.
What you don't see are all the authors who write brilliant books and have interesting things to say, wondering when exactly it's going to be their turn to be on a panel. What you don't see are all the authors secretly re evaluating their careers in the face of everything they see or hear or learn from being in the har melting pot. You definitely don't see all the authors who would love to be there, but simply cannot
afford it because let's be real here. Those 2 nights cost me nearly 500 pounds in hotel train fares and food. You also don't see the authors who would love to be there, but have too many responsibilities and who feel sad, frustrated and concerned that not being there. Is going to negatively impact their career in some way. So there's lots more in the article. It is very, very good. Thank you to Charlotte for sharing this.
I went to try and leave a comment, but she didn't have comments on So I'm not sure if that shows what response has been, but the links are in the show notes. And I wanted to mention it as I've definitely felt some of my worst impostor syndrome at Har again as an India author. But and my social anxiety is pretty huge at the best of times, which is why I tend to have a drink. Which is why many authors tend to have a drink to be honest. And I wanted to encourage you by being open about this
and Charlotte mentioned this. And if you feel this way, it is show normal. And I've talked to very successful authors at thriller first at Har, who've said they feel exactly the same. So the impostor syndrome, it doesn't go away. However, big you get. However, successful other people think you are. So if you go to London Book fair or to authorization or to any author conference in any country of the world. You might feel some of these things. All
of this is normal. At every stage of the author journey and what you probably find is if you linger around the periphery and just try and say hello to someone. Then it will be worth going. So that's at Charlotte duck worth studio dot com. And Charlotte also builds websites for authors. So I thought I'd mentioned that too.
So in Ai things, there's lots of stuff going on, but the 1 thing I wanted to mention was Open Has announced a limited release of their search tool, search Gp, an Ai powered search engine with real time access to information across the internet. So it's going out to certain people first, and then they're gonna roll it out slowly, presumably to avoid the Google Gemini Ai powered search situation, which was sort of blasted, but, of course, Google is
incorporating Gemini into their search. And again, I would encourage people to think long term about changes due to Ai and try not to be emotional about it. These search engines are very likely to change the way that content is surfaced. In fact, 1 patron said this week that Chat Gp recommended my podcast, this podcast on chat. So I was thrilled about that. You know, I want the search engines and the the Ai bots to know about me. I want them to know about my work,
which is why I'm always. Trying to encourage them to get to know J and Joanna Fan, and I happily upload my books to them. But, of course, this ties into all the licensing deals that open Ai has done, and it is is presumably likely that the... Those publishers who've licensed content will get better results. So this is an area that is changing really fast, but Ai
powered search is definitely coming. And if you haven't listened to that episode or if you listened to it and thought it didn't matter or was too far ahead, then maybe go back and have a listen because I go into how things are changing. That was back in December on hal generative search will change book, marketing and book discover
ability. Also, in personal news, I was in Peter Barr yesterday, at the book vault printing factory, which is always a thrill, and I went to see the new foil machine, which to be fair. It's not very... It... It's not like a sex picture. It's just a big massive box. But what was very lovely is to was to see how many book covers were kind of in various stages of production and there were some really beautiful books being printed. Mostly romantic. There was so
many romantic books. Being printed. So lovely to see Book vault is doing so many gorgeous books for authors in the authors. I signed all the exclusive hard backs of spear of Destiny for the Kickstarter, Pictures on Instagram at j pen Author. Thanks to Alex and Curtis of Book for helping me And all the hard backs, paper bags, large print and all the bundles are now in the post and so backers should have them in the next 7 to 14 days depending on where you are in the world.
I was as I was signing and looking at all these beautiful book. I was so struck by how grateful I am to be able to create beautiful books in the world. And maybe you'll like me. I don't just buy books to read. I buy books to put on my books show. So I have a lot of more expensive hard backs. I might have mentioned this what I just bought from
kick kickstarter again. This, like, oh, I spent over a hundred pounds on a beautiful new illustrated edition of Dante's inferno, which I read Several times in various editions, I wrote a thousand fitness angels as a short story collection based on the inferno but this is just a gorgeous package, and I was like, oh, I really want that. Now will I sit down and read that book? No. I
probably won't. I actually bought Jonathan a gorgeous boxed edition of the lord of the rings, which he has read hundreds of times and listens to you an audio over and over again. And but this is just a lovely box. So I just wanted to say again, how grateful I am to now be able to do that and how much I am so convinced of Kickstarter and these kind of print runs as being a really important part
of our author business going forward. Because with all the Ai stuff, digital to, as I've said many times, Digital is going to 0, people can get as much digital content as they like. But what really stands out is some beautiful books. And if you're a book person which you all are, then, presumably, you love these, and it was
so funny because I... As I was walking through and I saw some of the designs and was signing my books and just feeling them, and they're all shiny and have the lovely foil and I was thinking of the Vineyard book, So I writing the Vineyard book, and I've been playing on mid journey, making pictures. Obviously, When I say horror, you know, my books are many of them are have horror elements, but it's more like just a super.
So this is folk horror, and it's a set in a vineyard and so, of course, in my mind, and I've been playing with these images on journey. And when I was off at Book roll, I was like, oh my goodness. I really want to do a special edition for this. They're also getting the sprayed edge machine soon. So I was thinking of sort of the evil vines that I can have going up the side of the book and all of this. So I was thinking I would pitch
this book to an agent. But to be fair, I'm probably just gonna do another kickstarter and launch it with an exclusive signed special edition. Because I'm just in love with it. And I love having these books on my shelf. So there we go. There's a bit of a rant about how wonderful it is. I really encourage you to think about this because of things you can like you could just do 1 to give to your parents or to put on your own books shelf or whatever.
So, yes, exciting times. Also, as I record this, I'm doing the discovery writing webinars this weekend, so they will be done by the time you hear this. I've prepped the sessions. I'm really looking forward to it. There's a lot of writing, and so we'll be doing discovery writing together. It's not just there's a bit of teaching, and then, of course, I do a q and a on anything that people want to talk about with backers from the campaign. So I'm I'm excited about that.
See thanks for your emails and comments and photos this week. Jude said K from Alter theo New Zealand. Joanna giovanni, your podcast of kept my spirit going for so long. Today while I was feeling blue and forcing myself to at least wash the dishes in the sink. I listened to you saying the dreaded Covid had visited once again. Sending you much arrow heart to get better soon. So thank you, Jude. And yes, I
am better. I I feel like I'm on the other side where everything is amazing where the just the contrast of being ill and then coming out of it and just going wow. I I just love everything and the world is amazing and I'm just so happy So, yeah, it's good to be on the other side. Ruth said, I've never written to you, but this particular topic was so helpful to me. I just had to tell you Gosh I retired 5 years ago, and I'd promised myself. I would complete my novel or
memoir by now. It's been a struggle with external events. This was very motivating. So that was on the Ross Morris episode on writing emotion. Thank you so much. And, of course, a struggle with external events like like my Covid, for example, Be gentle with yourself, you don't need to write the book. But if you do wanna write the book, then, yes. It's time to knuckle down and do it, It's it's it's the combination of self, love and self care and a bit of discipline.
Think it's how we get our books written. And then thanks to author T Pedro who sent me some pictures on x, some pictures of beautiful green forests said listening to today's episode of the podcast while driving through West Virginia on my way home from a work trip. It is gorgeous out here. Really did look gorgeous. Say thanks. To. Okay. Please leave a comment on the podcast show notes app creative pen dot com or on the Youtube channel or message me on x at the creative pen with a double
n or email me. Send me pictures of where you're listening, joanna at the creative pen dot com. I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation. So today's show is sponsored by pro writing aid because however you choose to publish whether you go indy or you want a traditional deal, you need to make your book the best it can be. Pro writing aid is 1 of my absolute must use tools in my writing process, and I also work with a
human editor. But I use pro writing aid for every book every short story, fiction, non fiction, everything. I use it with Sc, but you can also use it online, you can use it with other software I work through every chapter and it kind of underline things and highlights things that I need to change. Pro writing aid knows all the rules of editing and help you apply them. And, of course, you can choose not to make the
changes as you like. It helps with making your writing more active finding repeated words, finding words and sentences you could improve, adding sensory details, sentence structure, grammar and punctuation issues, as well as typos, spacing problems and more. It suggests improvements, but of course, I don't have to accept it all, and it now has a really useful set of reports, like, super super good. If you haven't looked at pro writing aid
in a while. It's worth having another look because their reports have things like story strengths and weaknesses, areas for improvement and other analysis using Ai tools to help you improve your writing? So why you software to help you? Why don't you just learn all of this and apply it yourself while we all use tools to improve our process, and we are also often blind to our writing issues. It helps to have another pair of eyes even if the eyes are software. So won't an editor to
do all this. What a human editor? Well, yes, they can do, but I would rather pay my editor to look at my manuscript and fix things the software can't. Also, if I fix as much as I can before I send it to Kristen, my editor, Then I know she can focus on the bigger issues, like character development or inconsistencies or plot holes. So I use pro writing aid as my essential editing tool before sending to my
human editor. Also, I've had a lot of emails from people saying, oh, I tried to use chat Tb or Claude as an editor, and it didn't work because it just makes stuff up. Well, yes. Don't use generative Ai to edit. Some people have kinda that about, but why not just use pro writing aid because if this is what it's designed for and it utilizes Ai as well?
So check out the free edition or get 15 percent off the premium edition by using my link, pro writing aids dot com forward slash Joanna, J0ANN, pro writing a dot com forward slash Joanna. So this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting transcription and editing but my Time in creating the show is sponsored by my community at patreon dot com forward slash the creative pen. Thanks to the 7 new patrons who've joined this week. Thanks to everyone who's
been supporting for months and years. If you join the community, you get access to all my back videos and audio, covering topics on creativity and Ai, mindset and business and my patron only Q and A solo podcast episodes. Last week, as this goes out, I I'd put out a tutorial video with Michael from Ai writing tool pseudo right, showing us all the new capabilities.
The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous, and you get access to everything. New patron, Ida, email this week. She said, all these years as I listen to your podcast every time you did a call for action for Patreon, I would skip forward and think Now, I'll take what I can get for free. There's heaps of stuff and heaps more information on the internet. I don't believe in subscriptions. I'm not paying.
Then 1 day I just thought well, it's just a cup of coffee. It's really cheap. Worst case scenario. I'll download everything I can and cancel. And of course, you can absolutely do that. Within a few days of becoming a patron, I was O g. This is the best 3 dollars 50 I've ever spent. I'm thrilled about this and she gave me permission. She used this, by the way. I'm seriously getting so much value out of this. This is so worth it. I wish I could tell everyone. This is really really good
value guys. Just don't wait. Go ahead and do it. I also like the pat app. And how we can watch and listen to additional content there. So if you feel you get value from the show and you want more and come on over and join us at patreon dot com PATRE0N dot com forward slash the creative pen. Right. Let's get into the interview. Anna Sa Lane writes 19 twenties murder mysteries and contemporary thriller. And is an award winning short story writer. So welcome to the show, Anna.
Hello. Thank you very much for having me. Oh, it's great to have you on the show. So first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you originally got into writing and self publishing. Well, that was the typical book worm kid, which led me into an indigenous history degree. And I had really think at the time that writing stories for a living was an option. So I kind of went into to journalism and thinking, oh, that's that's close. Turns out it's
a completely different thing. But anyway, it it kind of worked So I I worked for local newspapers for 5 years, and then I moved into the health of medical field. And I can't, you know, enjoyed work. I was quite happy at doing what I was doing. I'd always written a bit of fiction on the side, but I only really started taking it seriously about 15 years ago, when I just got bitten with the idea for a novel and and it wouldn't let me go.
So I spent about 8 years writing my first novel, and then another 2 years trying to get it published and went through all of the and downs and near misses and getting more and more sort of frustrated with the process. So eventually, I decided I'm going to find out self publishing. I went to London Book fair. I joined Ally. I did various online courses and found out as much about it as
I possibly could. And then eventually went on to publish on unlawful things, which is the first novel, and that was back in 20 18. So that's interesting. That's quite a long journey then. And I think didn't that book win some awards or something? I mean, it's a very well affected kind of books If how did that experience go with traditional publishing? Well, that was the thing it kept getting shortlist of the stuff it kept nearly winning things. And then I'd sort of get agents
who are saying, oh, yes. We really love it, and and then they'd sort of have a closer look and say the trouble is. We're not sure that it's commercial and enough and blah blah. So that was really the reason that I eventually went into self publishing, but, yeah, I forget the exact ones now, but that there were a couple of of awards that it got onto the sort of final roster for. And when I published it, it did pretty well in that it got
really well reviewed. People reaching seem to really like it. And I thought, oh, great. You know, better write the next 1. And unfortunately, the next 1 took 2 years to write. And Yeah. That was when I suppose things started slowing to really. Well, let's just stay a few years back because you and I first met, as I arrived in canterbury at the end of my pilgrimage ridge in 20 20. So if we would literally just days before lockdown.
I think that time. And then you came on my books and travel podcast in 20 21, and we geek out over canterbury history and and that was while you were still writing Helen odd fellow mysteries. So first tell us more about those books, why you started writing that series in particular, I guess based on your history degree. Yeah. Well, actually, the helen fellows series really started when I walked from London to Canterbury back in 20 10, which I just sort of did for fun.
That gave me an idea for a story, which I like the idea a story that started in London and led you all the way canterbury and taking in literary figures like Cha and Christopher Marlowe, who's the play right to was born in canterbury, but actually died in in endeavor, was murdered and death. And I like the I idea that it would sort of touch on historical mysteries like the murder in the cathedral archbishop
Beckett murder. And then again, the mystery of what happened to Beckett its body after henry the eighth had the shrine destroyed. I had all of these kind of mad ideas going around in my head, and then I came up with the idea of a literary detective looking into mysteries from the past.
And so my heroin helen odd fellow was a Phd literary researcher, but she was also a London tour guide and that was because I actually had a friend who still do have a friend who works as a London tour guide, And it's just fantastic going anywhere with her in London she's always pointing out things that you'd never noticed normally and she just knows everything about
London history. So I thought that that would make a really good s, someone who who notices things like that and who has such a good sort of background in in history. So this series then, the first book was very much about M, I then went on to write about William Blake, and then about Charles Dickens. So all writers who had really strong London and kent links because I live in London and Kent and that's kind of the area that I know best.
So I really enjoyed the writing and the research, and I did absolutely stacks of research for each book. They were incredibly research every. I, for example, with the the Charles Dickens book. It sort of started with, I should probably read all of Dickens we just 1 quite something. Wow. Okay. That is interesting. So perhaps not surprisingly, they took quite a long time to write. And, yeah. The first book did okay. The second did okay to the third and the fourth didn't really take off.
So I was very proud of the books and the people who read them did like them, and I thought they were good books, but they kind of weren't working commercially. And this is really interesting because that... You mentioned the agent who said it wasn't commercial enough, and you've got a character there. Who's a Phd to researcher and tour guide. How much does that series crossover into literary fiction? Versus mystery genre fiction. I think part of the problem was I didn't really know where it sad
at all. I remember after reading the... Writing the first 1 showing it to someone, and she said, oh, 0, it's it's a crime, and I said, oh, is it? You know, I hadn't even thought to that point what sort of book I was writing. And I had to explain it, you know, it takes quite a long time to explain to someone well. It's a contemporary thriller, but got lots of historical stuff in and quite a lot of hit... Heavy literary history and, yeah. It it just became really hard to market
because it was quite a complicated thing. And I think when I described them a sort of victory thriller, people thought all they're just gonna be really heavy. And, maybe maybe they were quite heavy. But certainly, I think that for some people, that was actually quite off putting that they sounded like they were gonna be hard work. And I think probably, they did ask quite a lot
of the reader. I do remember reading 1 the reviews where someone was saying, look, I'm sure this is a really good book but there's so much history in it. Yeah. You're right. There there's a lot of history in it. It's so funny the because I was thinking this because of course, you and, we both love our research, and it can be spice or seasoning and our info jumps, and I I think both of us pretty good at that, to be honest. But it's so interesting because I I was thinking look.
My books are for people who love to also read the author's notes. And love to say, oh, my goodness, that's actually real. Or, wow. I didn't know about this. I get emails from people who say, oh, I had to go and Google that stuff you were writing about or had to go and visit this other website that you put an the author's note and stuff. So I I do feel like there is an audience for those kind of books. I mean, des decoration my fist, also kind of literary detective book. Was kinda
similar. But that's just, you know, staying with that series. So you mentioned that you didn't know what Genre was, which is a classic first novel issue that that many writers have. In fact, first book issue, I think, in general. What else did you learn from those self publishing and writing those initial books. I think 1 of the problems was how long it was taking me to write each
book. So I realize that people will actually forget if you don't publish a book for 2 years, especially if that's the gap between your first and second book, people will just forget about you even if they really like the first book. By the time you... You're publishing the second 1. They've way moved on. I mean, I think I did learn actually how to craft a really good thriller, and I think certainly my fourth book in the series is by far my favorite. I think it it was a really
gripping story. It had the backstory. It had the Dickens backstory in it, but I don't think it ever became sort of info dump. I don't think it ever kind of over age to the history. I think it was actually a really good book. But unfortunately, by that stage, the readers who'd kind of read the first book could had of forgotten about it apart from from a few kind of die, and it just wasn't working. So, yeah, that
that was It was sad. I I was really sad not to be able to make a success of it because I kind of felt they are good books, and I would very much like to have been able to carry on with them. But, yeah, the time came to to make that change. Yeah. So let's talk quite that this. Was it a purely sort of financial reason to pivot away from that series? Or why did you decide to pivot? And how did it feel? I mean, you said it was sad there, but talk us through that process?
I think I just decided I wanted to make a living as a fiction writer, and those books were losing money. So I could have kept writing as a hobby. But that really wasn't what I wanted to do. So if I wanted to fulfill this dream of of making a living as a fiction writer, then I had to find something that that would actually sell. And it was kind of heartbreaking because I loved writing my characters. I love those books. I
was actually midway through writing book 5. When I I made the decision, and that came from just looking really clearly at the sales for book 4, and thinking why why are you doing this to yourself? You know, why are you carrying on putting all of this this effort and work and this huge amount of of work into something that is not really giving you a return. But once I'd made the decision, I actually felt a huge sense of relief. And I think that they had become a bit of
a a burden in a way. And I was kind of tied tired of feeling that I sort of failing. I'd set myself up to to be an author and I felt that I was failing us north because I wasn't able to sell those books even though I was pleased with the books themselves. Yes. So let's just say to everyone listening. It is actually completely normal to not be a full time fix should offer and making enough money from books, But that's what you decided you wanted to do. So that's why you made that decision. I
guess. But you said they're looking really clearly at the sales and the books. How did you get enough distance? Do you think or? Are you an analytical person? Like, you could just download the sales spreadsheets and be like, yeah, This is not working. I am fairly analytical I think. I always have spreadsheets that show how much money I'm spending and how much I'm getting in, and I've been running my own business for the past 10 years
as a freelance journalist. So that was just part of my process. And it was kind of the end of the year, and I was looking at my end of year figures. And realizing to what extent my journalism business was subs the books. And, yeah. It I knew that I kind of wanted to do less journalism and more writing, and I thought well if that's what I wanted to do. Then something's gonna have to change.
So it was quite a struggle emotionally at first, but, yeah, It was fairly straightforward once I looked at the figures and thought about what it was I actually wanted to do. And what... Were you spending? You said they were costing you money Were you paying for marketing, things? I mean, obviously, editing, cover design are an outlay. Yeah. But we're use paying for ongoing marketing. I mean know It was, but I wasn't even making back the cost of production, so
editing it uncovered design. It wasn't being covered by the income from certainly from the last couple of books. So at that point, it was just no. This isn't working for me anymore. Well, I really... I appreciate your honesty. And, I think people are listening as well. And it's so interesting. I've heard Craig Mart from 20 bucks to 50 k. He's talked about this in that
you write? And no, let's say, 5 book series like you have or 8 book series or however many you want or even just a trilogy, and you see how it's going and if it's not working, then you do another series because not everyone is gonna find an audience. And it might be at this point. So for example, maybe, have you considered, like, bundling those books or doing some other things later on or are you just gonna let it go. I've put them in a
4 book of box set. And Fun love since I started the new series. There's a a small but steady sale each month for those books. So I think some people are reading the new series, and then when they get to the end of it, thinking, oh, maybe I'll try the others. Also. That's great. So that's nice. Yeah. Yeah Nice it's nice Well, you never know. And I do wanna encourage people around this too because things can pop back up again. At different points, you know, or you could just do a promotion.
So you've got cha sir. You've got Mar. You've got Dickens. You've got William Blake. I mean, these are people wear of like come up, don't they here in the Uk. And there's... Like a honor Ross is doing something on moore gone at the moment and does suffer around yates and Yeah. Yates is anniversary and all of this. And so we can tie these historical things into sort of spike promotions now and
then. But that's the old series. And the reason I get emotional about this because I have probably gone on too long with my arc series. It makes some money, but, you know, I'm on book 13. And and I think but if I had been honest with like you have round book 5, I might have pivoted earlier, But I have other series, but let's talk about your pivot. What was your process of after you decided you were gonna do something different. What
did you do next? I think 1 of the keys was once I decided, I just move on. I don't sort of fa around thinking oh or what my existing readers think or try to explain the it to anyone else. Just just get off with it. So I decided fairly quickly that I wanted to stay in the crime mystery thriller the space. And then I started researching the genre in crime properly in the sub genres.
And I thought, well, what do I what is non negotiable, and I realized well I definitely want to keep the historical aspects, and I'd often thought about writing historical novel. And I knew that I didn't want to write police procedural. So I looked at the historical mystery area, and slightly so my surprise. I found this thriving sub genre of 19 twenties murder mysteries, and I love reading class golden age mysteries by Dorothy El say and I get the Christie, so that kind of helps. And I I
just looked and thought well. Maybe I could do that. I then started reading lots of books in that genre and also started reading general histories about the 19 twenties. Especially social histories involving women, because there was so much going on in the twenties 4 women, everything had changed since the first all war. And Just started to really fall in love with that kind of period and started to say think, yeah. Actually, I can I can do this? I I really want to get into
this this area. And I actually started off by writing my reader magnet, which is murder at the R, which came from actually going and having tea at the roots with a friend. And we sitting over afternoon tea and throwing ideas about and I went home and and wrote it and thought it looks like I can actually write a murder mystery.
So, yeah, a bit of research to kind of prompt ideas There was a particular book that really helped let me get started called Square haunting, by Francesca aid, which is all about some amazing women who lived in Me square Blooms free between the wars, including Virginia Wolf and Dorothy El say. And that was quite close to where I used to live and work myself, and I really like the Blooms free area of London.
And so that gave me quite a lot of of inspiration for the first full novel in the series, which is black in Blooms spray. So you found this sub category? But did you assess the financial potential or did you check the rankings or know did you use publisher rocket because you can find out money using that tool? Like, how did you look at that side?
Yeah. I did. I used publisher rocket. I mean what I did find was that I could probably find other areas, other genres or sub genres that would be more lucrative that that would probably have higher sales, but I was looking for something that I was excited about writing about. And I looked at well, what are the best sellers in these genres what are their sales? Okay. Well, I'd be happy with that If I could get into those sort of numbers, that be fine. So although it wasn't you know, I'm going to
make an absolute fortune necessarily. It was okay. They're clearly selling enough, and it's something that I want to write. So I think you really have to have that crossover. I knew that there were other genres that were sending more, but they weren't the ones that really spoke to me. And then how did you write to that market? Did you get list
of tropes or was it more organic? I read a lot of books in that genre and kind of noted the tropes, so things like people are forever wanting to have our and in t and t and k and things like that. So that's fine. I can fill that in and the fashion is really important. Well, that's that's that's good because I like the fashion of the area very much myself. So I I was kind of
aware of the tropes. I wanted... I what I realized I didn't want was what's something that's very common is it's an s. It's always lady so so who's investigating the murders. And I decided no. I don't want that because I wanted something that felt a bit more personal to me, and I don't really have any sort of insight into the Harris tragic mindset.
But what I do have, my mother, grandmother are all cell and women who grew up in a particular sort of social class, kind of low middle class, went to grammar school. My mother went to the grammar school and did allocation lessons and learned how do shorthand and typing and was expect to fit into a kind of sac role. And I thought, actually, I like that idea that this lady is my my main Ruth Mar, who was named for my grandmother is a secretary to a lady who is an American that's private detective.
So she's sort of got the kind of the experience. She's in her fifties. Same major as I am. So she's sort of that side of me. She's kind of experienced at life. And then marjorie is quite a naive, young woman, but she's learning fast, and she's coming from that background, but I I feel that I understand quite well. And did you plan? I don't know trilogy or 5 books or how did you think about this net experiment. I decided I wanted it to be a 6 book series, but I also thought I will do 3
and see how it's going. So I've got 3 out now and they're going pretty well. I mean, they've sold so much better than the previous series. To the extent that I can see how they could become a living if I keep going in the series and maybe have some spin offs and other series, but those certainly given me hope that it's possible to to achieve that, that goal of of being a full time author. So, yeah. Right from the beginning, I was thinking they're going to have an overriding.
There's a kind of... There's a couple of themes for the 2 main characters that will go throughout the 6 book series. I may well continue after 6 books, but I'll kind see how that's that's going. And if I've got enough new ideas at the end of the 6 books, So it was very much a planned series whereas that the Helen fellow books were entirely unplanned. I wrote the first 1 without any idea what was gonna come next and so it's it's been a much more commercially
minded project, I guess. And on that, have you just gone with ebook and paper back and how you publishing? Like, are you in K? Yeah. I'm publishing in K. I'm doing paper back and Ebook. I really want to do audiobooks, and that's something that I'm gonna be focusing on for the rest of this year is trying to get that underway.
So that's a bit of investment, but I I like the idea of doing that because I think there's quite an untapped market for audiobooks, and it's probably a market that I haven't reached because they don't necessarily read pay paper back or or e. So I'm quite excited about that.
Ideally, I would like to sell direct, but I think there's not much point in doing that until I've got a few more books in this series under my belt, So that's a project for next year to look at maybe or maybe not taking them out of K, But either way, being able to sell paper box direct and audio direct through my own website. So that's definitely 1 for for 20 25. What I noticed is well? I mean, what, if you're gonna write to market, you have to cover to market and your covers are
fantastic for this series. They look me on brand as far as I can tell. I don't know much about that genre, but tell us about how you did the research for the branding, and, I guess how you've shifted it because they obviously look quite different to the rest of your books. Yeah. Completely. Well, yes. I wanted something that would give a flavor of the Art d style of the twenties. So I was looking at some kind of classic, Dorothy El books, and I've got 1
that I particularly liked. And I used that to do myself just a little mock up for for my reader magnet. And then I started looking at cover designs in the genre, and I contacted a a designer called Donna Rogers who had done a few of the books that I really liked. So I sent her a brief, including my mock up as 1 of various suggestions and she drew elements from that, the sort of geometric shapes and so on and and use that as a template.
So we've got a a very strong branding on the series with this this strong sort of art d style template. And then we're picking different colors for each of them in the series. And, yeah, they're they're getting a lot of love. It's really nice when they're book book reviewers and book bloggers nearly always comment on the covers. Isn't really nice. Oh, well, then not, I guess, brings us to the marketing on it. So you said
before they're selling a lot more. So how are you mark getting these books differently. I suppose my branding has changed in the time I'm sort of foreground grounding the kind of 20 style and my research into the 19 twenties. So I'm doing quite a lot of work with the newsletter. So that's become a really important thing. I thought a lot about what to people who want who who read my type of book want from a newsletter. And I realized that they probably want a
bit of fun a bit of glamour. So I put in pictures of of exotic places that I've I've managed to travel to and I I just of talk about other books that they might like and some of the media that they might enjoy, so the new series of Bridget inn or whatever. You know, the things that kind of have that historical, but, quite glamorous sort of style.
I suppose I didn't make a a big deal of the shift with my newsletter or my social channels because I kept the same pen name, but I did completely re them and then just started posting that the new series. Switched over to the new reader magnet, so that new readers were going to be seeing kind of consistent 19 twenties style branding from from the start. I've done a lot of newsletter swaps with other all through in the genre, which has
been really nice. I I've got in touch with them fairly sort of soon in in that journey, I was kind of making contact with people getting on their newsletter list. And then once my series had started offering a newsletter swap asking if they're willing to do that, and everyone seems really up for it. So that's worked really well.
I've done a few promotions as well. So sort of written word media type promotions and 90 to 9 p for a week, that kind of thing, which has been quite good for promoting the first book in the series, and then hopefully hooking people into into the series. In terms of advertising, I'm doing a lot of experimenting with Facebook ads at the moment, and I don't know it. I'm struggling to... I haven't cracked that yet. Just what I'm going to say. But I'm I'm doing a lot cash changing. So
it it it does. There's a lot going on with facebook at the moment. But it's quite interesting to see certain sort of vintage style photos do well for a bit and then they stop doing well. And then I've tried using Ai imagery, and some people are fine with it, and then some people will just write this look Ai underneath and so you think, oh, okay. It is. Yeah. That's common now even if it's not Ai. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, basically, you are doing everything, but you were doing everything
before. Right. So the big difference is you've found a more, I guess, vibrant niche where you have written something that those readers already want. So you're putting It's like putting stuff before people, but if they actually want it, it it becomes much easier to market. Yeah. Completely. I I know who Marketing for too. I think that was probably the single big thing that made the difference was I know who to target. I know who my comp are. I didn't
know any of that stuff before. I I kept looking trying to find my and there was no 1 who really fitted. So I think that was part of the problem was it it wasn't an easily marketable series. Whereas this, you know, if you say to somebody, oh, it's a murder mystery set up the 19 23 chelsea of flat Chelsea flower show, they know exactly what sort of thing, they're gonna get. And if that's the sort of thing they're into, then, you know, they'll give it a go.
Yeah. Fantastic. So, I mean, obviously, this is still 19 twenties. How have you done the research for this that in a different way than the last series because it... You spent a lot more time researching those. So how are you balancing research with actually getting the books done. Yeah. While each book has kind of a new aspect of the twenties to explore. So for example, Soho As as the second book was all about nightclubs Jazz music, a bit about the cocaine panic of the the early 19 twenties.
So I often do a lot with the British newspaper archive. So I'll literally just dive in, put in some keywords and dates and see what comes up, which can be really interesting. Then I'll do some library based research So looking for things like memoirs. For example, Kate May was a a nightclub hostess test who wrote this fantastic memoir called secrets of the 43 club. Which was really fascinating. I will also go to places as much as I can. So I did a a
crime tour of the West end. I went to the bow street police museum, just just spending time in those particular areas. 1 thing that I realized is really different when... Because I write about London, and I I write about it very much in a real way, so you sort of should be able to walk where I've walked. But, of course, so much changed because of bombing and development after second old war. So 1 of the resources that I use is the old online ordinance survey maps of London from 19 18.
So I can discover that actually the place that I thought they could all stroll down didn't exist in 19 18 and at that road used to be called something miguel and so that that's that's quite fun. Plate things like local history blogs of really good as well. So there was I was setting on scene in in B. And I found these fantastic old photographs on a blog called Bricks and buzz
all along the high streets. So I could see which shops were wearing and what people were wearing and where the market was and and all that sort of stuff. So you know, that that's that's fantastic because it really... What I'm looking for then is is color to bring into the books so that you can feel that you're there. So it's rather than looking for particular kind of secrets from the past, which I was looking for when
I was doing the Helen helicopter series. A lot of it is How will I make people feel that they're in the 19 twenties. How can I add the color so that they feel that they're actually in the place? And my fourth book Riviera mystery, which I'm working on at the moment. I was lucky enough to go to Knees a couple of times last year. So I've made the most of of my research time there. And and also Youtube actually is really helpful
with vintage film. The film industry was very much and in its infancy, but there are some fantastic short films. There's a film called apollo niece from 19 24. Which shows everyone, you know, you know, when all their fashions kind of para aging up and down on me, the promenade on gray. So well there's lots to lots to really enjoy. Yeah. And I mean, it... This is hard doing isn't it because a lot of historical fiction readers. Can be very particular about the
exact and velocity of the research. But have you found that in this niche which I imagine is potentially more about the murder mystery than the exact history. Like, are you getting different responses from readers? Actually, yes, people don't tend to pick up on, well, make... Maybe I haven't made any errors, but people haven't played up on errors. It seems unlikely.
1 thing I always worried about getting wrong is the cars because I I quite like having sort of vintage cars and Fortunately, my husband's a fan of vintage cars too. So just last week, he he read the first draft and of my next book and pointed out that She can't reverse her 3 wheeler Morgan back up the street because they didn't have reverse gears. I didn't never reverse. It that's a good 1. So he saved me for that. But I think actually what most people are looking for is a really cracking story.
They also want it to sound right. So something that my beta readers will sometimes pick up on is phrases or words that they think don't sound right. And quite often when I've checked them out, actually, they are right as in there were people called brenda, for example, in 19 20. But to them, that didn't sound right. So I thought, well, okay. It's about pla ability,
rather than accuracy. So if someone called brenda strikes my readers as as being out of period, even though I know perfectly well from the online records that it's true. That's okay. I'll change it to something, but they will find more plausible. So there's a bit of push and pull between that. And my readers are reached, I've got a a good beta to reader a team who will say, actually, I'm not sure whether this is true or not, but it doesn't sound right.
So I think sounding right Yeah. Is really key. That's a really good tip actually. I mean, I was just thinking is that as we recall, it's July 20 24 and the American election cycle is unbelievable as if if you wrote it into a thrill people would say no. That's too much. That's just a bit much. It it's it's not believable, and that's kind of the same thing. It's like, what is true is sometimes not believable. Just coming back on beta readers. So how
did you find your beta readers? Because that's a question that people send me quite a lot. Yeah. Through the newsletter. I just asked people did you want to be on the team. I was something that was quite unexpected when I started publishing this series. It was how many of my readers are from the Us as opposed to the Uk. It's something like 70 percent, 30 percent
Us Uk. So because historically, I've been publishing, I suppose with more success in England or in Britain for the first series, more of my new newsletter was from the Uk initially. So more of my beta readers were. So I I put out a call in the last 1 saying, kinda have some American beta readers, please because I won't know what it is that will strike you as odd or that needs to be better explained or whatever.
So trying to make sure that I'm accommodating readers from my biggest pocket as well as as home readers. Yeah. That is interesting. And are you writing in British English? I am. I think if I tried not to write in Us English, particularly because it's set in that the set in the Uk, the narrator is an English woman and its first person. I think it might come across us as slightly weird as weird. You know, first person. No fair enough. Okay.
I didn't realize your first books were not in first person. Right? No. No. No. It's first time I've written first person is really interesting. That is just because I've Yeah. I thought I've written some short stories in first person, but I've never written a full novel. That is actually quite different because you can't I guess you can write some chapters from other people's perspectives, but they'd be third person. So however you manage that? You don't. No.
No. It it all has to be from Marjorie perspective. It's really interesting in terms of how it affects the structure because everything has to be either something that's through her eyes or something that she's told later. And particularly with a mystery. I suppose 1 of my inspiration for having her as a first person narrator was I was thinking about Holmes and Watson and how Watson is kind of
usually several steps behind home. So he's telling you things, but he's not necessarily understanding them. And I quite like that thing of Marjorie will tell you what's happened, and she'll tell you something that her boss the the detective has said or is doing. But she won't necessarily get the import of that for another chapter or 2. And then also things can then be explained to her. So she can explain them to us. So it's been really interesting, and I've enjoyed doing it.
And it's not something that I thought I would do, but somehow this particular character seem to want to be a first person character. And I think it does work, and it works because she's got quite a strong personas so her voice. Woman in that particular genre because again, when you're writing to market, it is very much about writing to the... You know, if you're writing the romantic at the moment, a lot of it is first person. So is that common in
that genre. Yes. It is. Yeah. I think, I'm I'm not sure what the proportions are, but a a fair number of of the series that are successful are is first person. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely something for people to watch out for. In in my sort of main thrill, like most of the books I read are in third person. So that's kind of what I naturally write. But, yeah, that's a big shift. Right we're almost out of time, but I do wanna just circle right back. So
you have an English in history degree. Your first character was like a Phd, literary, and we've talked very much about that literary side, your so you... And we're in the Uk. Right? And you and I both know house and nor. It can be in this country. So I wondered, like, how have you dealt with any or are there any mindset or challenges around moving away from a more literary persuasion into this more commercial side? Like, have you have you struggled with that? Or have you
had any responses from anyone? Like, how has that being? I haven't had any problems with it personally at all. I wanted to write books that fell. I wanted to write books that people would enjoy. I'm not sm about things like, you know, Ag Christie. I think she's fantastic. I've a few problematic issues with in in terms of the time period now, but I I love a good murder mystery. And I think that's the key to it really.
I'm writing for people to enjoy themselves. I don't think that they have to work to enjoy themselves. You know, there are books that that will do that, and that's fine, but that's not really what I want to do. I just want... If someone can read my book maybe at a time when life is is is tough. Someone got in touch and said, oh, I read your first book whilst Start, the first to dependent fellow whilst I was in hospital having open heart surgery.
I mean, employment. You know, if that's... If if that can help someone through an experience like that, then that's fantastic, and that's as much as I would as I would want. The the only thing I can think of this at all, kind of sn 1 of my 1 of my ads on facebook that recently put something like experience a classic murder mystery and someone had responded underneath No Thank you. I prefer the proper classics. Which Yeah. There we go. Yeah. But no. It's it's really good that
you've made this decision. You stepped into it. It's going well. So I guess the sort of last question is how... Can you see a path now to that making a living as a fiction writer? Yeah. But it's a multi year pathway it's not something that's gonna happen in the, you know, I I think when I first started, like so many authors. I thought I'm gonna be that 1 where I will release this book and everyone will recognize it's genius and it it'll will be the Vinci code and suddenly, I'll be
a millionaire or something. I know now, that's that's not really how it happens. So I'm happy to sort of project forward okay while I'm gonna have 5 books out by the end of this year, and then I want x number by the end of next year, and by that time, I should be getting revenues around this or that. So looking a couple of years into the future, I'm very much hoping that that I will be where I want to be in in terms of my goal of of being full time.
Brilliant. So where can people find you and your books are online. So website anna a sabre 9 dot com. And if you sign up at the website, you can get a free copy of murder at the it's. I'm also looking at doing, a research blog So a blog that's about historical research for writers, which I think would be interesting for both writers and also, hopefully for readers.
So anna sa lane dot com slash research, gives people the chance to sign up to the subs stack, which I will start just as soon as I've got time to start it. Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, anna. That was great. You're very welcome. So I hope you found the episode with Anna interesting, especially as I know this is an emotional topic. We all get attached to our books and I do think that some series can take off later as the market changes or if
you get better at marketing. But if your goal is to make money with your fiction or your non fiction books, you do have to think about the sales side and try and be a bit more analytical as Anna
discussed. So as ever, I would love to hear what you think of the episode, please leave a comment on the podcast show notes at the creative pin dot com or on the Youtube channel or message me on x at the creative pen or email me, Joanna at the creative pen dot com and send me pictures of where you're listening. Next Monday, we have another writing craft show as I talk to Robin Finn about her book, heart, soul, Pen. Find your voice on the page.
And we get into how to write more freely and avoid self censorship and self judgment and judgment from others, and we talk about strength based feedback, which is really interesting and much more. In the meantime, happy writing, and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it help full.
You can find the back list episodes and show notes at the creative pin dot com forward slash podcast, and you can get your free author blueprint at the creative pin dot com forward slash blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and x at the creative pen or on Instagram and Facebook at j f pen author. Happy writing, and I'll see next time.