Preparing Your Manuscript For Pitching Agents With Renee Fountain

Welcome to the Creative Pen podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you into views inspiration, and information on writing craft and creative business. You can find the episode show no your free author blueprint and lots more at the creative pen dot com, and that's pen with a double n. And here's the show. Hello, Creative. I'm Joanna Penn, and this is episode number 760 of the podcast, and it is Wednesday, the third of July 20 24

I record this. In today's show, I'm talking about preparing your manuscript for pitching agents with Renee Fountain. Who is both an agent and a developmental editor. And of course, even if you're not pitching agents, preparing your manuscript for publication is just as important. So however you choose to publish, you will find this interesting. We discuss the main issues with manuscripts how to tell if it is over written

and thoughts on pacing. Then the elements of a pitch package and query letter, the pros and cons of traditional publishing, and will they really do all the marketing for you, dealing with rejection and more So that's coming up in the interview section. In publishing things, there is an article on self publishing advice on referencing and citations.

So first of all, why is it important to provide external evidence to support our arguments to be open and honest about where we get our ideas from and to make it easy for our readers to find our sources so they can double check or read more about the subject at hand, which is why I share it a lot of my readers like to investigate further. From the article, which is on self publishing advice dot org. We cite other people's work to make sure our own work is clear, supported, viable and honest.

These principles are the bedrock of intellectual integrity. Now intellectual integrity has a nemesis called pla. Citations are the safety net that prevent us from falling into the trap of accidental pla.

So there are tips on moral aspects as well as legal aspects of avoiding copyright infringement, key copyright principles that apply to citations, fair use, permissions, and then also the mechanics, whether that is in text, footnotes or in a bib geography, which is what I tend to do, and I always cite my sources and inspiration. As Cor Mccarthy said, books are made out of books, and I love sharing where my ideas originate

from for fiction, and my research process. And for non fictional, I always have a very substantial bib and references per chapter. For me, it's all part of the fun of writing. There's also an article on how to do indexing or outsource it. So that's on self publishing advice to Org links in the show notes. And in Ai things, the Wall Street Journal has a fantastic interview with multi award winning musician and entrepreneur, will I am, and it is on Youtube

so you can watch it. It is an in person interview on Ai creators and the media industry, and it's such a positive spin. I love will I am. He's he's just... He's so inspirational. His birthday is also just a few days from mine we're we're same age, and he's 1 of these people I look at and go. Yeah. Maybe I could achieve more. But if you don't know him will I am was in the black eyed peas. So if your generation x, you won't know

him. He's also a solo artist and producer, music producer, he's on the Tv show, the voice He's a mentor to musicians, but he's also an entrepreneur and Ceo and, business guy and in technology Ai. He's been starting and acquiring Ai and technology companies for over a decade. In the interview, he talks through the disruptive technology shifts, we have already seen So far with the internet, mobile, social media, and all the disruption that has caused and streaming. And how Ai is going to be even

more disruptive. He but he criticize existing business models for musicians and says that the time of Ai is a time to remake things. He says, quote, Right now is the time for the dreamers because you have dream material tools to try to do it the way it was yesterday. Well, that's not a big dream. You could now literally just reimagine and dream up tomorrow with today's tools. He also stresses the importance of getting involved and the need to have more diverse voices

involved. It's like a new frontier he says where we gotta make sure every voice is heard. Ai needs to reflect the diverse rich tapestry of all our communities. And I totally agree with this, and it's why I have many for many years, stress the need to learn about these tools, use them, shape them make them into what we need them to be, what we want them to be. Or the tech is just gonna

develop without us. And people from every race and religion and cultural background and and, yes, political persuasion need to be involved And while I am demos a voice model with an African American female voice. And he also talks about how he is excited about tools like Audio, which is text to music. He says, quote, It is freaking fantastic, amazing technology. It's mind blowing what you're able to do

with Ai and composition. It's going to be mind blowing what you're going to be able to do with Ai and storytelling. The technology is giving agency to dreamers to focus that have visions and imagination. So in 1 sense, I'm like down, this freaking machine can make beats better than me. And look to be honest This sounds a lot better in the voice of where I am, but I'm obviously not going to try. But, yes, I love this. He basically says, yeah, this machine can make beat better than

me. That's real. But then I'm like, damn, this machine going to allow me to have 1 idea that can multiply a thousand ideas. It's the age of the ida, not yesterday's traditional artists. I'm still creating. I'm just creating differently. Such a great interview. It's about half an hour, and, yes, he focuses more on music because that's his medium of creation, but all the principles apply to us as writers. It's about half an hour. And as I said, it's clearly better in his voice so you can watch

the video. It's on Youtube, links in the shin notes. But just to Repeat that. It's the age of the idea, and I'm still creating. I'm just creating differently. So important. I hope that inspires you and you go and have a listen to that. In personal news, I have an interview on the book brunch website about pilgrimage. While I wrote it, my writing process why I write different kinds of books at different times to keep myself creatively fresh. Why I am an Indie author, balancing market, marketing

with writing, and more. So that's on book branch dot c dot u uk. And that's because I won the selfies award earlier in the year for pilgrimage and that book brunch site is mainly a traditional publishing focused site. So it's kinda cool to have an interview there. So I'm recording this early as I'm am heading to the do lectures in West Wales. It is a different kind of conference for creative business people I'm attending, not speaking, and I may well be the only fiction author

there. It tends to be a lot of different businesses. A lot of solo openers. Creative people, but not necessarily in the fiction space. So I'm hoping to bring back insights from other industries I feel the need to kinda get out of my comfort zone with author conferences and go to something different. So I'm sure I will share some lessons

and thoughts next week. Now thanks for all your emails and comments and photos this week on x Ts said, listening to the podcast right now while clearing out a large storage shelf I put in the garage of my old house, the joys of moving. And there's some lovely pictures of him in front of boxes in the garage and up on a form, which is very cool. I love a little glimpse into your life? Beth also emailed in response to my question about, would you let someone else finish your books if you died.

She says, the writer was my father. I was the illustrator and comic creator, but my father died right at his first book was being public. Leaving me to work with the publisher to release the book. His final words to me aside from my I love you was to protect his books. I took that to means stewardship, and now I'm honored to edit and publish his literary estate of over 50 books. Wow, Beth, and I love that you're honoring your dad in that way. That's that's a

huge thing to take on. But, yes, Fantastic. And I certainly didn't mean to be critical of that kind of thing. It was it just a really interesting thought whether as the creator, you would want someone to carry that on. Beth also sent a picture from a pass through some beautiful woods in Mount S in North Vancouver, which was beautiful. Also on x. Now I love this story. This may be so happy. Warner a B Said. I often listen to the creative pen.

And apart from a wealth of information about the craft of writing, I was intrigued by her love of ce. She is always raving about them and I never thought to visit if it wasn't for a funeral. So 1 Sunday, I decided to visit. Isle M may, semi tree. It's down the road from me in Roads Park, Lu soccer in Zambia, and the little chapel at the front has

always drawn me. And I went and visited this chapel on Google Map it is beautiful, little chapel, and there's some pictures on the x thread as well, which I'll link to. Going back to the the post. I was a little lap apprehensive at first it's such a peaceful spot. I was assuming worst in the stories told by the tombs. I noticed some had flags on them. But then the guide showed me how the cemetery that was established in 19 22 was segregated.

Yes. Each race had its own section even in death there was a need to establish hierarchy. The visit left me buzzing with ideas for stories, but it took over a year for this 1 to form and then get published. The cemetery is central to the plot, but there's also reparations, indigenous knowledge, African spirituality and Zambia, World war 2 soldiers fighting for the British. The tomb of the Forgotten soldier is now published in fear, the magazine of black speculative fiction issue 31.

I love their story. So thank you for sharing warner a baby. I just think this is brilliant. Wonderful story, lovely photos. And while I've have never been to Zambia, I went to school in Bla tire in Malawi, which if people don't know borders Zambia, and we live there back in the early eighties. And I had real fun on Google Maps because I went to look at this chapel and then I kind of scrolled over to the right where Malawi is and went back

to some of the places I remember. I haven't been since 19 86, but it made me want to return such a beautiful area of the world. So thank you for that. That is so fantastic. I am thrilled that I got you to go visit this chapel and this graveyard and that it in inspired a story. Okay. Please leave a comment on the podcast show notes at the creative pin dot com or on the Youtube channel or message me on x at the creative pen or email me and send me pictures of where you're

listening. Joanna at the creative pen dot com. I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation. So today's asia is sponsored by publisher rocket, which helps you with keyword and cat degree research on Amazon, which you need for your metadata when self publishing, as well as helping you generate list of keywords for Amazon ad You can do this manually on Amazon, but it takes a lot more time and you have to think of all the different perm

mutations search for. And I found that Publisher rocket saves me so much time and frustration that I use it for every book in every genre I publish It makes the process easy, which let's face it is what we need, so we can get back to writing. You can use it to find keywords that readers at truly type into Amazon search. You can also learn about other offers sales with the competitor analysis, which I often use to find categories I want my book to appear in.

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Process So this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my community. At patreon dot com forward slash the creative pen. Thanks to the 2 new patrons who've joined since last week, and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for month and years.

If you join the community, you get access to all my back videos and audio, covering topics on creativity, mindset business, marketing, Ai and more, and my patron only Q and a solo podcast episodes, of which there were quite a lot So if you'd like lots more audio with me, talking about publishing and writing and marketing and business and all of that, come and join us, Last week, I put out some audiobook chapters from the relaxed author. To give everyone a little bit of calm

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Renee Fountain has more than 3 decades in the publishing industry, including being a literary agent, a developmental editor and story analyst. She is the president of Gan Helen and fountain literary management and founder of Griffin Quill editing. So welcome to the show renee. Thank you very much. Great to be here. Yes, Indeed. So first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into the publishing industry and what you do

now. Well, I've loved books since I was little kid, I was that kid getting yelled at or reading under the covers with the flashlight when I was supposed to be sleeping. So after a bunch of boring jobs, I wanted to do something my love. So I was living in San diego at the time, and hardcore court Brace was the only publisher there and I thought, I'm gonna do that. So I started in the very pouring division of accounting guides before landing a coveted spot in children's books.

I eventually moved back to new York City, just in time for 09:11, so that kind of dash my hopes growing my publishing empire. But now I'm wearing a few hats. I'm a literary agent. I mean, when I did come back to New york I did go with the Simon Sc eventually. So now I'm wearing a few hats, some I'm a literary agent I'm a developmental editor, working with writers in my private business. Also on the faculty

of Manuscript Academy, working with writers there. And I'm writing reviews for Kirk Indy because it's 1 of the few ways I could keep my own writing skill sharp, while dipping my toe in the indie pool. A portfolio career is say, call it. Sure why not. I saying I'm a multi passionate creative. Don't don't put me in a 1 genre box Now when you pitch me, it was really interesting. You said, I get a lot of manuscript submissions that are just not query ready. And I was like, oh, my goodness That is

it's a super duty topic. So let's get into that. What are the main issues you see with those manuscript submissions? Well, mostly it's the writing, whether at a line level or the overall story structure, it could be the writing isn't strong enough yet, the word count maybe too high for the genre where they're writing.

It's mostly due to, again, loose writing, bad pacing, excessive description or the scene goes on way too long or what I call story for stories say is just telling the reader a lot of stuff that doesn't really matter in the big picture. No matter how interesting it is. And you'll know if you have that as if you take out that section and it still makes sense. So it's just a lot of things just aren't quite gel yet.

And I've talked to so many people that just like, well, I I wanna work on a new project, so I just need to get it out there. Like, it's a time limit. You gotta shove it out the door, and then you really don't. You really you really need to take your time. So there's a few things to come back on there. I want to address the word count first because this is really interesting and people don't really understand why word count is

an issue. Could you talk a bit more about word count for some of the most common genres and why it's a problem if it goes on too long. Well, I hear a lot of talk about they say that for my first book. I shouldn't exceed x amount of words. Well, if your story holds it, then it's fine. It's... The problem is when that you say, oh, renee, I've written this hundred and 50000 word romance. It's like,

probably not. Mean, I know you wrote it, but, yeah, probably have a lot of stuff in there that doesn't need to be there. So genre in general has a word count that you should kinda be shooting for, you know, a thriller can be done between 70 and 90 depending on the story. Fantasy is 1 of the few things that are gonna go above a hundred, but that's really what we're looking for, you know, and you talk about red flags when you see a query, it's, like, if I

see a hundred and 50000 word romance. I know there's a problem. So back in the day, I understood it to be that word count was very much about spine size. So you mentioned there thriller is 70 to 90000, and I like thriller but I write shorter thriller than that. I mean, 70 would be the highest. But now when most books are sold online, how big a deal is spine size or is it more about, for example, editorial budget for a hundred and 50000 words is much more than say a 60000

word. But Well, I mean, with George r Martin still getting published with his microscopic font and his giant thousand plus page books, like I said, he's still sticking in genre, but I don't know how much times have changed now. I mean, editing in the big 5, they really want you to do all that heavy lifting before it gets to them. Things have evolved it's changed. But I never really kinda thought of it in terms of spine size so much as what the story tends to

hold. So if, you know, you've ever seen a hundred and 50000 page romance, that quite the book, and you have to imagine it's over written. Now is opposed going the other direction of having something where the word count is too small. Like, if you said Renee is 52000 word, romance or whatever it is. The problem becomes pricing at that point. Though we really like the sweet spot of around 70, they really don't like it under that because of the pricing issue.

Yeah. This is so funny. I feel like we've been so boxed in with pricing because of Amazon's 9 99 cap as well. But I read a lot of non fiction too and non fiction can be shorter. Mh. And readers will pay more. It really is only a fiction issue with pricing, I think. Yeah. You expect non fiction to be a slightly lower count, somewhere in the sixties and higher depending on the topic.

I think where non fiction comes in is that if you can be more direct and whatever it is the issue that you're talking about. And it can go higher it's a narrative non fiction. You're going to another 320 page, 350 page book. So it just it all varies within there too. But, yes, they can hold a lower count. Well, let's come back to the word over written. You know what that means, but it's very hard to know what it means when you're the author.

What are some ways that an author could analyze their own manuscript to find whether or not they have over or you mentioned story for stories sake. How do people know that they have these problems without working with an editor first. Well, I mean, I think was a lot. That's way author is it's tough because you could be a great writer, but you've been working on it so long. You can't see the fours for the trees anymore, and your brain fills in all the gaps. So sometimes

it's hard to see it for yourself. And that's where you get a fresh pair of eyes, whether that's a professional editor or whether that's another author that, you know, that you admire that you... Their books are good. Anybody who understands pacing. Because that's where it's all gonna come into is the fact that you have the story for story sake and that you're writing this long scene and you're describing everything on the

person's desk. And everything on the walls trying to quote set the scene, but none of it is really that important. You're you're giving the reader a lot to remember and think about. Whereas if on that desk was a secret relic that magical thing, Yeah, you're gonna say among the pens and the other us, you've got this relic, and that's the part we're gonna remember. But the idea is if you take some of this extraneous stuff out and the story keeps moving forward, like, you've not missed. Like,

you had to know about this part. You've, of course, don't take that stuff out. But when you take the stuff out and nothing is miss and the story is still whole. That's when you know you're just giving a lot of information. I've read books where the information was fun. I enjoyed reading it, but in the real big picture, it didn't have anything to do with it. And it was just taking up a lot of real estate for no productive reason.

Yeah. And you also mentioned before that feeling of just get it out there, and I totally understand that. I mean, sometimes we're just sick of our own books. And interestingly as self published authors, obviously, we can just upload publish, and it can be selling the same day. So there is a sort of positive sense of getting it out there. More quickly. What tips can you give us around patience or coming back to something with fresh eyes like

how can we do that? Is it just a matter of leaving it aside for a time? Well again. And actually, I wrote an article on out of my subs stack of patience pays off in the sense that with you guys sat, you know, and especially you joanna that have had a lot of books out there. You know what to do here and you know when stuff is finished.

But these first time authors a lot of the times are like, I just have to hurry up and gets this published, and they don't realize that you're just d distracting from the possibility because you don't get a second bite at the apple. And usually, when you're tired of that project, or it's not quite right, or you haven't sent it to an editor or as I was said, other person that can give you actual feedback. Hoard in the drawer for a little while.

I mean, this is why painters turn around their paintings, so they don't look at it for a couple of days. And when they turn it back around, they can see where the improvement needs to be made. So there is no deadline to rush it out the door as a traditional publishing person because no 1 will pick it up. Because it's not ready. And you knew that when you did it, but you were just hoping that someone would love it enough to fix it and that rarely rarely happens.

You also mentioned pacing a couple of times. What are some tips around making sure pacing is going well? Well, that's hand in hand with the overriding and bringing scenes that last way too long is that you're getting my down in all these details that really aren't moving the story forward or enhancing your story in any way.

So that will drag down the pacing. So if I'm s through 3, 4 pages of what's on a person's desk only to have someone walk in and say, hey, would you like that glass of water now and you leave the room? What was that for? I'm not saying that everything has to happen in split second, and I can appreciate the slow burn, but there's that fine line between just having the words there just to have them rather than having them be productive and add to the story.

Because if you're spending a lot of time writing about things, introducing a character. Oh, he was bullied as a child and now he's got these dark thoughts and on and on and then all of a sudden, he's gone. You never see him again. That he just got off the school bus and you decided to tell me all about this person who got off the school bus.

But he doesn't show up again. If you take that out, it doesn't affect the story, but he leaving it in, I'm reading this and that's kinda s the pacing a little bit. I feel like the biggest shift of this was certainly for me as the writer who's been doing this a while now is changing my head from my author head. To a read ahead. And obviously, as an you're acting as a reader as well. But how can we do that I mean I guess we've talked about getting some distance.

For example, I'll tell you how I do my own self, Edits is I will print out my draft 2 pages to a page so it looks more like a book, so you can fold it up, and it would be like a book. And then I handed it with a pen on paper, and I scribble over it. And the font I use is different. So it's not on the screen. And so this kinda helps me disconnect. So I guess, if you got any tips for other people who to change your head around. I think that's a great tip.

It's a matter of stepping where getting some fresh eyes and then doing something like that or reading it out loud. If you're reading it out loud, especially with your dialogue. I mean, that's how a great way to fix dialogue of that's going on too long or is too on the nose or whatever is to read it out loud. And then you can see that you're going on and on and non possibility you were like, I could say this so much more

su and still have... And have way more impact and that looms anything in the story as a whole. Yeah. It is difficult. And again, it's very interesting. I think it takes a number of books before an author can be more confident in their voice. So have you seen authors develop their voice over the years? Is it just a matter of creative confidence over time. Yeah. I absolutely do. I have a client that I worked with a number of times and is a veteran, and he's writing, it feels like it's more cath

authority for him. It's a lot of very angry stuff. It's not necessarily well thought out etcetera. And then a couple months later, I'll hear from again, a year later I'll hear from him again, and he's like, I wrote this new romance thing. You say I know it's away for me, But you see he's got it all out of his mind. And this stuff was way different. And that's what I would tell him He's like, do you think we should submit the other stuff. I, you know what step away for a little while?

And go back to it, and then you'll see that you got out what you wanted to say, but maybe now you know how you wanna say it a little bit more gently a little bit more productively if you would. And he's done that, and he's come back and said you're right. I realized it was not ready to be to be sent. So it's... Yeah. That takes some maturity. Yeah. And you'll get that with your practicing of writing. The more you write, the more mature you get I mean, I've... I could

see how my writings changed. Average I was reading stuff from 19 85 and How it's laughing. I'm like, oh my god. What I thinking? Yeah. In 20 22, I rewrote my first 3 novels, which I had self published in 2009, 2010, So... And I was, like, I've become a lot better write it and because those 3 novels were the beginning of a 13 book series, it felt important to rewrite And it's funny. You said earlier you don't get a second bite of the apple or whatever. But as independent authors we do in Yes and

do that. But I think you meant if you're pitching an agent or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although people get the rights back out there and often rewrite things. Well, that's a road that you can't go back to the traditional, and that's the same thing as an Indie rider. You cannot pitch most mode. I'm not saying every. Most agents including myself cannot take anything that's been previously published in any way whether it was just online, whether it was it it was out there online, but it didn't sell

anything. I can't have anything because in traditional publishing contracts. It's going to state that this has never been out there. Now if it's been a long time and you have rewritten 80 percent of the book. You know what I mean? It's different than. And it's the same with the second bite of the apple for when you're sending to an agent. Do you know how many times it's very frustrating for an agent you get Here's my manuscript. I hope you'll love it. And then literally

a week later. Oh, I redid a whole bunch of sections. Here's the new 1. Try this 1 instead. Yeah And someone has done that to be, like, 4 times and I'm, like, no. I can't. And then it was, like, oh, I've sent this... And then there times. Where I've gotten 1 that said, I sent this to you last year. You gave me some great notes on it. I wanted... You know I completely rewrote it. When you look at it again. And that is usually very okay. You know, to do that that way. You

right... We're gonna come back to the agent but let's just to talk about developmental editing because you do that. They feel like the word editor is so difficult because it can mean so many things. So what does a developmental editor do that is different to a align editor, a copy editor sort of red marks all over the page. A developmental editor could still give you red marks, but they

look at the whole big picture. I... I my cells can't stand, you know, can help myself from line editing because I'll see it and Like, no, that's not. So I'll do a little of that as well. But otherwise, they look to see that the story starts in the right place. The seams are all necessary and productive like We talked about before. Meaning they serve a purpose to the story and move the story forward back to pacing.

They often see where the story can be improved by moving some things around adding or deleting things, you know, of coming up to do... Something is said a certain way. You can say, hey, what did she set at this way Or what if you told that in dialogue, or what if you showed it this way. So that's what they do. It's

just like moving things around. Where line editors and copy are down to the nitty gritty of grammar, continuity, or cohesive of style, consistency, making sure the words used to relay the intention at the writer was trying to... I took a copy I didn't class through the University of Chicago, and that was very not for me. Yeah, you have to keep a style sheet. There's a lot of technical things that go along with it. And, yeah, it's completely different animal.

Yeah. I think you have to go with what your strengths are and seeing that story as a whole, I think. Interesting. You said this... Checking whether the story starts in the right place. And I feel like some people won't understand what you mean by that. So could you expand on that? Sure. I just read 1 recently. Where I got all this information, all this pre am, and nothing was really happening. There was, like, no inc incident. Nothing was really happening in, like, the first 10 pages.

And then by the time I got to, like, chapter 3, some major event happened. And now it was off to the races. And I said, you might wanna bring that in the beginning and less pre am of where nothing was going on because your... An editor is not gonna read. You know, as an agent, I can read like I when the first 5 pages to see voice and style and everything like that. And you've gotta get to certain benchmarks or you gotta stop turning the pages because

it's taking too long to get there. And like I said, fine line between slow burn and bad pacing. Yeah. And even if it's a sw burn, you've gotta hook the reader it, I read on a kindle. I read fiction on a kindle. And I'm pretty much a 3 click on a kindle paper wipes. So I mean, that's not many pages. If you I download a sample, I'll know pretty quickly whether I wanna read something. And then if I get to the end of the sample, I will usually buy the book. Because I am hooked

in. But that inc incident something happening is it like a genre specific thing. Right? The reader has to know. This is the book I wanna read now. But, yeah. I mean, you're showing what this character is gonna go on a journey to get a want and a need, and we gotta know what sets them on that journey, and you're gonna wanna know that within a certain period of time, or we're just reading about these people's lives. And it's not really

going anyway. If you're as a reader sitting there and you're a couple chapters in going. What's happening? Where is this going, and it's harder to say that when you guys are you if you're reading, like, a finnish book as opposed to submissions that come in. And, I'm talking about traditional again. So there's certain kind of rules that are adhered to in a sense. I mean, not hard and fast, You know, as the rules meant to be broken. Yeah. It's tough. Okay. So once the manuscript is in shape.

Many authors want to pitch an agent. So what are key elements of a pitch package that authors need to put together in order to make it through the first mass delete of their emails. Well, yeah, A strong query letter is. Key. I'm actually gonna be teaching a master class at story fest in South Carolina on this because it's the first thing that gets you noticed. And it's like, 1 of the basic things, but it takes a lot of practice to and patience to get it just right.

So you wanna have your strong query letter. Keep it to a single page. It's 02:50 to 03:50 words is best. If it Nate takes more, that's fine, but su sync and showing that you have, you can tell your story and give all this information shows that you've tightened your writing up. If I'm reading a 3 page query letter. I'm gonna guess that their manuscript is over written as well. So that's it's very important to have that.

I've created a helpful template for query letters that can be found on my site under the resource tabs, that's free for anybody to use. I did a proposal 1 as well, and it kinda walks you through the process. And that brings me a synopsis. You should have a 1 to 2 page the synopsis is on hand in case an agent asks for it. I always ask for them. And it's because you're gonna invest a lot of time reading these books and while the voice and the writing seem great.

You know, 4, 5 hours into this book. You don't wanna suddenly see this it goes off the rails. And suddenly, there's a donkey flying through the air, throwing glitter everywhere. You you're like, wait What just happened? So you don't get the time back. So when I'm reading and I see the voice and the structure and everything is all lining up, I like to look at the synopsis to see the story arc itself to see how it's gonna play out. And sometimes I can see errors there and say listen. That

doesn't really track. So... And I may forward before I make my assessment. They just maybe didn't write to synopsis this as strong should, but I'll still read forward to see if it actually played out in the manuscript. And if you're a non fiction author, strong query letter and a strong proposal is very key. And like I said, templates under my resources if you wanna take a look at that. Just... So people know what website should they be looking for there? It's a b fountain dot com.

Great. We'll come back to that at the end. But just on the query letter let's just cover a bit more detail now. So, obviously, we need to talk about the story. Or the non fiction project, whatever it is. But should we also include elements of our sales our platform like, I'm an established in the author, or there might be newer in the authors for me, but should we be including that information as well to kind of p talk more

about the author. We're always told we should talk about author platform, basically. Yeah. Yeah. You should because indy or traditional whether it's understood that you are going to be the marketer of your book. You're gonna do most of the heavy lifting. Traditional publishing will do, like very basic stuff. But it's up to the author. And when traditional publishers is looking at a book Definitely, if you have a strong platform, if you have a lot of high sales, that will get you absolutely

looked at. So definitely, showing that you have a strong platform and high sales is great. You can say, I'm a successful Indie author making my traditional publishing debut and go on. After that in your letter. And at the end, you can talk about your sales as... But we're talking, your sales have to be fairly high. If you say, you know, 3000 is great, I would be very impressed with that. But publishers wanna see it as high as possible.

And at the converse of that, if you don't have any sales or you don't have a high platform, take the time to start building your platform more, your followers your social media, all that for your reach. And just because you don't have any sales, don't let that stop you. Everybody starts somewhere. So if it's not impressive, don't talk about it. If it is impressive, Absolutely. Put it in red, put it in big giant letters Yeah.

Yeah. But start with the story. So I guess I'm writing to pitch this project. Here's a bit about the story, and then here's my platform and then if you're interested. Let me know. So should we pitch multiple agents at the same time? Yes. Yeah. But not in a way that you're just throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall to see what sticks, research the agents. So what are some tips for finding a good match for a book and an author because there's a lot of agents out there.

Yes. It's simply the research whether you've read a book that you think, you know, that you really like, you're like, this is just like mine or this is the type of book that this agent handles, look in the acknowledgment, find out who the agent is for that book. Look on publisher marketplace. Manuscript wish list. I think Writers Digest provide some guidance. I thought I saw something from Reed, not too long ago where they put up the agents that should be. I wasn't among them by the way. I stay

also. I stay off the grid. I I don't use query tracker or other similar sites because they're probably a good place, but that's not the way I work attend writing events like P or Killer Nashville or whatever fits in your genre, to see their list of agents. They post them up there who's attending what they're looking for. And and just... You can go back for the last 2 or 3 years, And you can... I think you can go into a lot of information that way.

Yeah. I mean, it's better to pitch. I guess, 5 agents you've heavily researched than just scatter gun, 25 is not good. It's not good to just throw it out there. But also, too, remember, you wanna work with this person, maybe there are agents that you've identified from passing things that you been doing or books that you've seen or author authors... Then pitch them first. Maybe you have your top 5 or whatever it is. And then pitch ones that are relevant.

That to what you're doing. But it'll don't pitch a military author or a agent, you know, your romance book. You know. So Yeah. Very important. And our agents and publishers open to Indy author's pitching. I mean, you mentioned there if you have a good platform mention it if you don't don't mention it, but of, are they open to it? I mean, obviously, even if you don't mention it you're gonna have to mention it when you have a conversation. Yeah. No. It... It's not something

to hide at all. I'm just saying what will kinda work for you and what will work against you saying, I'm an Indie author, I didn't do very well. I have no sales spot that that really is like, well, You don't want to leave with that. No. But absolutely, agents are open to it. Just like I said, you can't pitch a book that you've already published unless you said, listen, Published this. I sold 5, 50000 copies. They'll be, like, very interested. You

know. I'm you hear about those bought pad sensations where they had a million bot had followers, and then I think it was Simon Sc who swoop in and grabbed her. So it all depends. But, yeah, you should absolutely go out there but just not where the previously published book.

Yeah. I think that's really important. The other thing is you mentioned before quite briefly that you are the marketer And I feel like a lot of authors turn away from being an India author of these days because they don't want to do the marketing. So what sort of marketing can they expect with a traditional publisher? Like, you said they do a little bit? What is that little bit? Yeah, They'll notify, like, they have a stable of reviewers that they'll

send it to. They might include it in some kind of roundup, you know, a handful of... They're they're not gonna send you on a book tour. You're not gonna go on signings. They're not... You know, you don't know how many times I I get these submissions to say, just wanna go with a traditional publisher because I want them to do all the marketing for me. Well, that doesn't work. They want you to be again, your platform. That's why it's important to

raise your numbers. You... They want you'd have already made audience who's already interested in what you have to say and what you're writing in a fan of your work. They want you to go on podcast and be a guest on a podcast or a blogger or something where you're talking about your book. Some people have access to television shows, and they go on there and

talk about their books. I had a sports agent who would be invited to talk about sports and then he'd say, and then here's my new book, you know? So what you still have to do the main heavy listing. Sometimes traditional publishers will say, depending on what your book is, maybe they'll have a set of magazines that would work well for a piece that you could write an article on or

something to that effect. But, again, it's only when your front list, it's only leading up to your launch, and then they're onto the new front list book to to give them the attention. So you've really gotta try to get the irons and the fire yourself as well. It's an unfortunate part. I'm... I didn't say was easy. No. It's not easy either way. Mh And it's funny because I feel like people think that 1 way traditionally published authors think going India is the

easy way. And Indy often think, oh, I'll just go traditional because then I won't have to do marketing. No. So it's like there's there's pros and cons either way. But given what you said, so what are the benefits of going traditional? I was gonna ask in, do you people that question is slow. But from your perspective. Yeah. I think a lot of people is kind of a goal for them. And it is kind of fun. I mean, not for

nothing. You, you know, have bragging rights are saying, you know, Saint Saint Martin's took my book. That's great. That's a feather in your cap. And I think you should do that if that's what you wanna do. I always tell my my clients, sometimes, you know, the publishing landscape is tough. It really is. And I will try so long. Sometimes it takes me 2 years to sell the their book depending on what it is. But I will do everything I could send it out, get

some feedback. And when I say, listen, I think I've exhausted all my possibilities at least they have the option of self publishing, a smaller press. Going to a hybrid, whatever they wanna do to get their book out there because I believed in that book enough to go And I I'd love to see it out there too. So you got your bragging rights, the nice feather in your cap, something that I think is is something... It is wonderful. But

you're also look at the other side. You're giving up a big piece of your pie. You're still doing a lot of the marketing. You may have better distribution the other way. I don't know about in the Uk but we didn't have many brick mortar stores anymore. They've all been reduced to online. I think there's a couple of barnes and nobles left. But this still happens. There's still airports and all that, you could try to get your book into. But I I think this definitely pros and cons to both sides.

Yeah. Indeed, And 1 of the other things I was considering around this is film and Tv rights because your agency looks at that. I mean, there are agents who have relationships with film and Tv agents or studios, Is that a better way to go as well? For example, I pitch to a person in Tv a well back and they said, or why isn't your literary agent doing that for you. And I was like, oh, well, I'm doing it myself because I'm not with

an agent. So do you think that it's the benefit to have an agent do that or that there's an a better chance of getting a film or Tv deal that way. I think some of them require just like the big 5 requires you to have an agent. It's because they don't wanna to deal directly with the author. So that's why they wanna have the intermediate of an agent to make sure you have representation, make sure that you have someone saying. They said this, but really, this is what's

gonna happen. You know, So that's the pro to having an agent to do that kind of stuff. But for the most part, film and television, I Don't know if it's, like, Amazon studios doesn't require an agent or some of those, you know, that those that have popped up in the last few years. But film and Tv for the most part are going off of a great story. A lot of times could be high sales figures. I catch their eye, but it also has to do with,

you know, what's working at the time. Hallmark, lifetime, they're always looking for new stories that fit their profile and demographics. And they want an agent to send them their stuff. But when I was auction books for film and Tv at Hardcore court, I was obviously only working with my own books, but I would have celebrity managers call me up going. Do you have a female driven vehicles, you know, she was representing share and was like, well, I'll

see what I have. But when I was a Scout first C television network, I looked for the story. And what was interesting, whether it was india or not, it could have been a magazine article, but whatever worked for adaptation So I was doing double duty back then running a book review site. And so I was reading all sorts of different things. But... So in that aspect, just because you're an Indie author doesn't mean you can't

pursue that avenue. And there are some agents that just do, like, I don't represent scripts. So I don't go the other way, but there there might be some other agents that take your book, your Indie book and sells for film rights. We tend to work with just the books that we represent when we do that. And then just coming back to something you said earlier about, like, if you take on, manuscript example, and it might take a few years or it might not even happen.

So what stops a publisher publishing a book or taking on a book? Is it just that their list, they don't want that kind of book right now or a timing problem. Like, if it's gone past your level of quality. There's this next level a publishing house. Yeah. It could be a lot of things, a rejection by them would be this doesn't quite fit in my list, or I have something similar or, you know, what I always hear the same as paranormal doesn't

sell. I'm like, it doesn't sell because you guys won't take any. It's selling pretty well for India face exactly and it's like, well, maybe take 1. See how it sells. You know, I understand there's trope stuff, and I found a werewolf 1, which I usually don't I say please don't send me witches Warlock locks, you know, we're, were, vampires, zombies. But I read 1 from 1 of our Indie authors actually that she came in as an Indy. And I thought she put a nice twist on

an old trope. And it came close at Mc, but didn't quite pass the finish line, but, you know, it happens. To what should an author do with these rejections. I mean, I find being an The author very empowering because I don't have to ask permission, on any success in any failure is entirely my fault. Basically, a no one's in control except me, and so I can just keep trying to make things happen. Obviously, the same as anyone else, some books sell better than others, but

that's kind of the way it is. So I feel like I've never experienced the kind of rejection that we will get submitting to agents or to traditional publishing. So how can Authors deal with that? It's tough. It's tough not to take it personally, but I have to tell you do not take it personally.

I've seen them pass on brilliant writing and brilliant books, and it's either because they were so overwhelmed with the work on their plate already that they have their stable of agents that they wanna look at or they just weren't in the mood, I don't know. But it is not personal because like I said, if it comes to me and I'm like, this kept me interested. I really thought this was great. And then I send it out, and I'm dealing with the rejection along with everybody

else. It's it's like, this is really good. Did you read it? But that's what happens when we're in a subjective industry, you know? It's it's my fantastic as someone's like, Yes. Exactly. It it really is isn't as a reader. You know, someone can say, oh, this is an amazing book. I'm like, ugh, no. Not for me. That couldn't put it down and you're like, I can't pick it up.

Yeah. Exactly. And sometimes I'll try books because they're just so popular And then and be like, I don't understand why this is so big. Oh, you don't know. Sometimes we have conversations, my partner and I are just, you know, She's like, how did this get out there, but this won't go. Wow, it's like listen. We don't know what kind of blackmail happening out there yeah. What what the hell what's going people have on the other. I don't know. But again, it's subjective, you know?

Yeah. And it's always changing. I I feel like the other piece of advice is well, just write another book because as creative people, that's what we do. And I feel like the more ideas I have the more ideas I have and the time problem is getting everything written, which I I think is why... Well, I I do have some 2 potential projects I am thinking of pitching. But the way I love to move on so fast. I thinking, like, let's say I've... This project I'm working on right now. Let's call it

the Vineyard book. If I finish that and then I pitch an agent. It might take... I don't know. 6 months, maybe never, obviously, but let's say it gets take 6 months to get an agent. And then what it takes 6 months to a year. You said 2 years to get a publishing deal. And then it takes a publisher, a year. 2 years to get the book in the world. Is that about right? You... Well, some of it. Yeah. But depending on how quick you get an agent, that's the first step.

And then for it to go to publishing, you can hear back sometimes within 2 weeks of no. Thank you. Or it could take a year. So it's somewhere in between 2 weeks and a year, hear back depending on who you've sent it to, how much stuff is on their plate. And then if you do get... Yeah, We'd like to green like this. And when I said it took me 2 years to sell something, it was, like, Because, again, it's timing, and we talked about it, it may not be right

now, but maybe it'll rewrite later. So it just took me 2 years of continuous that we sold it finally, and then she wrote her second book with them. So it's just finding the Haystack and then finding the the Haystack with the needle in it. You know? So and then if you get a book deal, Yeah. Right now, they are backed up, to where it's taking about 2 years to pub unless it fast track you, which I haven't I haven't seen that lately. And some people, I mean, you can get someone money on

signing. Right? But then you get paid on publication. Correct. It's half on signing. And usually the other hats on publication. Yeah. So just keep that in mind people in terms of cash flow management or or okay. Not on publication, let's just say accepted final manuscript Because... They're in they're in control of that. They can just send it back with some more issues and it that's it's not try to drag it out. But it's it's so interesting Like, why are we in this industry Renee? It's so hard

because we love it. It's we love books. But, you know, and back to 1 of your other points too? Is your first book may not be your first book published. You you you might... Like this is... I love your voice. I love you writing. The story not so much. But send me your next project. That's what I'll tell them. And the next 1 might be a really great story. And then you send that 1 out. So they get they get a... Their foot in

the door, you get published on yours... The second book you wrote or third or fifth or tenth, and you get that first 1 out there, and then the publisher, if it sells through, you have to sell through because you won't get your second book in there if it doesn't. And now they've sold through and they say, what else are they working on? And then you go here. I have these other options for you. And at that point, there'll be more apt to edit you or help shape up what it is that you send.

You mentioned sell through there. Can you just explain that? Sure. Let's say, when you sell it, let's say you were given a 5000 dollar advance. The advance goes against... There's a price for your book. You get a percentage of that wholesale price. So it's not retail. Unless it's negotiated that way depending. Let's just go with wholesale numbers. So you get the couple of points on on the sale on the wholesale price, and

that goes against your advance. So you have to sell x amount of books at 8 percent, usually, depending what you negotiate, and that goes towards that 5000. Now when you sell enough and that 5000 paid off, then you start seeing oil. Yeah. I think that's really important too you. The word advance means advance against royalties and yet people lose track of what the actually means. And in that case, it's really interesting because we do... I'm in here in the

Uk. I have 1 author in mine in particular who got a massive, massive deal like, really, really cute. And then we never heard from her again presumably because they didn't sell through. Whereas as I know, other authors who started on much lower advance, but sold through, like, multiple multiple times. Mh. And then the next time, they got a better deal. It's hard to know. Right? I in which way is a better way to go. And, yeah no. It kinda is. While he as an Indie author, you you're not used

to getting in advance anyways. So if it was a matter of between getting a lower advance and knowing that you could sell through and getting your royalties, there really is no difference. Right? So it's 6A1 half dozen of another. If you don't know that you're strong in the marketing aspect, I've had authors come to me from, like, Saint Martin and whatever and they didn't take his next because they didn't sell through. And yeah. Then he came to me without

me realizing that. And then I found out real quick why? Because I sold the book, and they did nothing. Yeah. It's... It is, and the industry I guess the other thing is don't be an idiot treat people nicely because it's not that big an industry really is it? M. You put your book out there, you always have to be selling. You always have to be working at it, building your platform and getting the word out. And I I I'm not that kind of person which is why, off the grid, and I'm always...

I'm right referral usually only or when I go to events and meet people. That's how I build my list. But it's always trying to to get your book out there. And obviously, if you sell through, like I said, you've got it made. Also would help selling through that advance is if your book is right for other countries. They'll sell foreign rights and all those other things get in advance as well that goes to pay pay the advance that they gave

you, so you could sell out... You you can earn an out faster. Fantastic. Well we're out of time. I do wanna ask if people want to pitch you, can you just to maybe tell them what you are looking for in terms of clients for editing or whether or not they can contact you? Well, I'm usually into, like, really great writing, really good voices and really great stories. I mean, there are more easy to tell you what I don't take.

I'm not a big fan of the post apocalyptic depressing books or Erotic, poetry, Western, the vampire zombie, etcetera as previously. I find it very difficult right now for fantasy, like, with elves and magic and that other world for me. There's a lot of other agents out there that do very well with that. I just find that that's not really my thing. I do enjoy great Chick lit, although the editors don't seem to. So I love humor. If it makes me laugh, especially, thriller, mysteries,

All that. Also, I don't do Children's books. I even though my career was in that. I don't take picture books or middle grade. I do handle You. But again, it's gotta be based on story. You know, It's it's that's that's the cli. Non fiction, memoir, Oh, absolutely. I do a lot of non fiction. If you guys go to my agency site, g h literary dot com. You'll see the books that the book covers that we've done. I've done a

lot of non fiction. If you go to renee fountain dot com, you'll see under the tab of my work, and you'll see a lot of the books that I help get out there and worked on proposals with the authors and edited the books, etcetera. And there's I think that's a great place to start there because it kinda hone down to specifically me more on that site. Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Renee. That was great. I appreciate your time and it was great to be here.

So I hope you found the episode with Renee interesting, and that it gave you some tips about thinking about your manuscript and also considering how you might want to approach. Agents and traditional publishing if that's something you're interested in. Because as authors, we get to choose per book and perform and all of that how we will get it out into the

world. And per language should say that you are in control of your creative business and intellectual property licensing so get to know all of your options, learn about all this and then make decisions that work for you. As ever, I love to hear your thoughts Please leave a comment on the podcast show notes at the creative pen dot com or on the Youtube channel or message me on x at the creative pen or email me, Joanna at the creative penn dot com, send me pictures of where you're listening.

So next Monday, I'm talking about intuitive discovery writing and serial fiction with Kim York, which is a super fun creative discussion that I know you will enjoy even if you are a plot. In the meantime, happy writing, and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful.

You can find the back list episodes and show notes at the creative pin dot com forward slash podcast, and you can get your free or the blueprint at the creative pin dot com forward slash blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and x at the creative pen or on Instagram and Facebook at j pen author. Happy writing and I'll see you next time.