Episode description

Salary Negotiations Made Simple - Career and Life Lessons with Cheryl Hayes - On Courage, Confidence and Curiosity

We have a special guest Cheryl Hayes. Cheryl is an executive director at a large multi-national medical device company called Stryker Corporation. She manages a book of business close to $2B in revenue. She is a colleague and a friend. And more importantly she has successfully navigated some tricky situations in traditionally male dominated industries. 

I have been so impressed with Cheryl’s expertise in negotiations, her focus on courage and her willingness to mentor new talent. We sat down to chat with her to get a dose of her knowledge and and the lessons she has learned on her journey as a mother rejoining the workforce, an executive and a negotiator. 

We talk about:

• Navigating in traditionally male dominated industries
• Building her courage muscle
• And using curiosity to build confidence

Let’s have a listen.

Links:

Refereced in the podcast; Learn to negotiate your salary - Free training here

https://www.dorothymashburn.com/fightforyourworth

Script to negotiate a pay raise at your current job - Free here

https://www.dorothymashburn.com/askforaraise 

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

I'm your host, Dorothy Mashburn, and Welcome to Salary Negotiations Made Simple, I show you How negotiating does not have to be. For one, may I break the entire process of negotiating into easy to learn steps that you can use in any salary negotiation situation. Whether you're starting a new job or preparing to ask for a raise. Expect to receive practical, actionable strategies that are based on real life experiences. I'll be sharing tips that have been proven to work where professionals like you have netted anywhere from $5000 to $40,000 more in compensation. It's payment for the skills you bring, so you need to know how to ask for payment for those skills. Are you ready to learn how to boost your earnings? Let's dive in. In today's episode, career lessons from an expert, we have a special guest, Cheryl Hayes. Cheryl is an executive director at a large multinational medical device company called Stryker Corporation. She manages a book of business close to $2 billion in revenue. She's a colleague and a friend, and more importantly, she has successfully Navigated some tricky situations in traditionally male dominated industries, and I have been so impressed with Cheryl's expertise and negotiations, her focus on courage and her willingness to mentor new talent. We sat down to chat with her to get a dose of our knowledge and the lessons she has learned on her journey as a mother rejoining the workforce and executive and the negotiation. Let's have a listen. Hi, Cheryl, how are you today?

Cheryl Hayes

Hi, Dorothy, how are you? Happy to be.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Great to have you. Can we get a quick introduction about you, who's Cheryl and a little bit about your story.

Cheryl Hayes

I am the director of procurement at Striker School Device company, but my whole career the last 20 plus years has been in supply chain worked at EMC and Dell and Siemens and Applied Materials. So large multinational companies and women in technology. So have that own share of challenges as you. I guess and love what I. I’m happy to help here and talk about what we're going to talk about today.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

We're talking a lot about confidence, feeling our way in our careers through a male dominated world. The Dell and EMC very tech companies tell us how you felt. What was your first impression when you got in and how you navigated just one or two stories about about that experience?

Cheryl Hayes

I came into EMCC fresh off. Staying home, raising children and it was quite a culture. Shock for me, I didn't. Know anything about technology I didn't even know how to do a PowerPoint presentation. One thing about AMC, I always say it's like being raised by the nuns working there, right? So they were very sick. I was very, very fortunate. Because we had what was called EMC University, you could take a class in anything that you wanted to know about. You could take a class and I had to learn how to do Excel and pivot tables right? I have to learn how to do. A PowerPoint you could take business acumen. When I started EMC, they were smaller. They didn't have the breadth of products that they had, but they would have, they would launch new products and then they would have after work one and a. Half hours or. So of, you know, learning about the new product. It was just the natural curiosity that I have and I wanted to learn all of this stuff and I I think I have it on my resume. During my 16 years there, I took. 100 and. 11 classes some. Of them were mandated, particularly as I rose up in the ranks at at director level. We had to do a lot of three 60s and personality type tests and learning how to manage groups and in certain classes that we had to. Take and I also had taken a kind of four day MBA program that not something you could just sign up for. It's kind of nominated for that. Again, it's just that that natural curiosity and wanting to learn and wanting to be better, doing what I did have to learn, particularly being a woman in a company that was known for being Boys Club is, you know, you have to have your voice. Right. And you have to. You ask for what you want and. Ask for what? You need and I think that. Became much more prevalent the higher up I went in that company, but again, I was very fortunate to to be part of that, no.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

What was the trigger to say that I've got to ask and kind of advocate for myself?

Cheryl Hayes

Yeah, I have a great story about that. So I have this really nice boss who. Really admired what I did and was. Really depended on. So I went in for. A review and he gave me a very good review as a top review that you could get. And I had with me in. A folder, the job description of the job Rep for the next level. It was a senior. Is still an individual contributor, but was at the. Senior level. And so he gave me my review. Glowing review. So happy to have me. On his team and that was it. And I said, well, how come you didn't promote me? I I really thought I. Was going to get promoted and. He said. I just didn't think about it. And I said. Well, here's the job description for the. Senior level and there was something in. There about doing reverse auctions and I. Said. And I'm the only. One in the group. That has done reverse auctions. So I'm doing all of these things and I. Don't have the. Title and I'm not getting paid for. It paid for it and he said. I I don't have a good answer for you, can you? Give me a. Couple of days and I learned a very valuable lesson. Then, if you don't ask. Or if you don't let your manager know. And other people. What your aspirations are or you know what you want to do? Or what you. Need if you don't ask, you don't get. You know it's. Going to be the same for your. Salary negotiations, right? You don't ask, you're not going. To get as humans who wired for fear and maybe women more so, particularly in business and trying to get past that and have that confidence which you will have over time, you know when you're new in a role or you're new in. A company you want to be. Like so, you're not going to take as many chances or you. You may not say as much as you may want to say, or you may not. Want to stand out like? I really think maybe we should do. It this way or this? Might be a. Better idea because you just kind of want to. Go with the flow and. You want to be like. You know, it's getting past that fear. Help get you where you want. To go, that's.

Speaker

Courage I.

Cheryl Hayes

Guess is what we're. Talking about here is learn. There's a learned behavior too, but courage is is a learned behavior. It's not something that people have more. Of than others. It's something that can be learned and it's being comfortable with the uncomfortable. And it takes some time. And maybe you start small, you know. I don't like. I don't drink coffee, so maybe for some reason for health reasons I need to start drinking coffee, right? And I'm really nervous about drinking.

Speaker

That's not.

Cheryl Hayes

Coffee and I don't like it and I'm afraid it might do something to me, but maybe and I'm using. It as an example. Maybe I just have a half a cup, you know? And then eventually, you know, you, you can move on. And eventually, oh, I can. Have a cup of coffee. Not a problem, right? So yeah. Chunking things up and starting small to get past that. Fear and. Develop more courage.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

That's a really good point that we are wired for fear and women more so. Why do you think that is they? Why do we want to be liked so much worries?

Cheryl Hayes

Pleasers, right. You know where mothers were were you know, maternal, you know. And where you know it's new for women. To the executives in the workforce, right, we we haven't been that. We've been what administrative? Yeah, and. And that's what we're best at. And that's what we know. And you know, there's always been a bias, I have to say. I have noticed it's higher in technology than it is in medical. I think there's more of an even split and particularly it's strike, are they pretty good? But I think it's getting better. You know, I've seen that evolution and I and I hate the disparity. It's, you know, them versus US. And we're all together to be saying we're all the. Same rather than. Well, she's a woman, so she's gonna do this. So he's, you know, I just I I want us to get to the gender neutral, right, that we it doesn't matter if you're a male or female. In that job. Whoever does the best job will win.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Right, right. But there is an awareness that we bring a huge counter perspective. To anything we do. Yeah, let me dig a little bit deeper on when you moved from trade or or didn't think about asking for a promotion ahead of time and then you made the transition to asking what was that that in between your life for you? How did you practice? How did you build up your confidence?

Cheryl Hayes

I'm very good at networking so.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Yeah, you are.

Cheryl Hayes

What I did was. So what I did was.

Speaker

And that's.

Cheryl Hayes

You know, trying to meet with people that you don't know or people that are at a higher level or an executive level. And so I did a lot of networking both and I'm still to this day internally and externally. People want to help. Generally I find people want to help. I I love to hear. People's stories when you approach it. I I need your. Help or I gotta ask you something. Or I'd love your opinion on the. People are pretty open to that. I read some books again, I took some classes at the MC, you know, and all of that just kind of helped. I mean at the end. Of the. Day it's on you and. You just kind of have to move those boulders out. Of the way. Realize that, yeah, you're gonna you're. Going to fail sometimes you're going to be. A whole lot of yourself. Sometimes you can ask. Us something that you know they going to think you're crazy. They're just gonna. Say flat out. Why did you even? Ask for that right? So you know, and that takes a little. Getting over right? Because you make a big blunder or you make you know, a mistake we've all made them all. Make 10 mistakes a day. I mean, we all make them right? Realizing that we're all human and and. I think we tend to. Put folks that we think very highly of up here and you know, we're kind. Of here and yeah. Well, saying you know, so I think it's just a behavior that you have to instill in yourself and you have to. Work at it. We have imposter syndrome. Right.

Speaker

MMM.

Cheryl Hayes

I'm really not that good and it's like, and sometimes even today, as many years as I've had in supply chain and I feel pretty confident about what I. Know and what I can do?

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

You know.

Cheryl Hayes

The other days I'm like. I'm not that good. I'm like, no, no, I have to talk myself out. Of it, yes you are, you know. You know and and. Because you do have those moments where human.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Impostor syndrome comes up so many times in any negotiation because you're doubting yourself. Thing that was really resonated. Someone said to me was if you have impostor syndrome, that means. You're learning and. Because the more you learn the, the more you realize how little you know.

Cheryl Hayes

Oh, that's.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

So yeah, so it's it's a really cool way of looking at it to say to yourself, well, that means I'm getting. Smarter or a? Bigger expert than the thing I do.

Cheryl Hayes

That's wonderful. It's changing that narrative that that's a wonderful way to. Look at it, yeah. I think you just saved a lot.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Wondering just.

Cheryl Hayes

Of people Dorothy right there.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

You said something about curiosity. I wonder if that helped you with your network. Tell us about young. Cheryl, how did you?

Speaker

How did you get?

Cheryl Hayes

I love hearing people stories. I think you know, at striker, obviously we have our strengths finders, right?

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Yes, the Galaxy.

Cheryl Hayes

And so my number one is individualization. So, and it's a good one for negotiation too, because you know, I do want to hear your story. I want to hear you your. Side, you know negotiations. They're not going to tell me they're weak. Spot, right? I have to figure. It out and I have to. Ask some questions. And I have to probe. You kind of figure out. What's really bothering them and then that's how you can help and you can negotiate, right? And come. Once Applier, he was just so afraid he was small supplier that we were. Going to move the product. That's what we've. Talked about it, but nobody has the appetite. To I'll give you a 2. Year PO, he goes all right and then. I got a cost reduction right. So that's what he was looking for, that's what. He was afraid of. Right, so when you? When you probe or. You ask those. Questions I do like to hear people's stories because that's how you learn, right? Older person, just like we're doing here, you know? And not everything. 'S gonna apply. And not everything's gonna gel with you. But this. Is why we do what we do. You know, we tell these stories and maybe that will help somebody. And so I'm always curious.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Right.

Cheryl Hayes

I always have been, you know, even as a young child.

Speaker

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cheryl Hayes

So you know, I love to travel. I like to learn about. New things I love. History for me, it's just fascinating. Probably more part of my personality.

Speaker

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

You mentioned individualization. So for our listeners, could you tell us what that strength within Gallup means?

Cheryl Hayes

So basically it's not a one sided conversation. So it means you, you listen, I've had vendors say this to me that you know you listen and you ask very thought provoking questions. So that's really what? That means it's like, yeah. You want to. Hear the other person's point of view. And not just your own. And you're not closing. It out like you're open to it.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Yeah, yeah. So that means that any person you talk to, you give them individual attention perhaps. Every conversation is unique.

Cheryl Hayes

Yeah, because everybody's different. And you can embrace that you. I can embrace that. That differentness right. You know that uniqueness to somebody else. And and I can understand it. It comes a little bit with. Empathy as well? I remember our boss telling us, and I just want to let you know Cheryl Sourcing Group score is really low on empathy. And I said, well, it was my #9 or 10. So I said I'll take the hit for the whole team. But you know, individualization has a a component, nothing in it.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

There you go. So I'm wondering, you know, if we if we pivot to salary negotiations. And you use that individualization technique. How would that benefit you like listening or?

Cheryl Hayes

Yeah, that's a great question. I think as they go. Through the role and they explain the role what? The role is. Right. What you're going to be. Doing how many? People are you? Going to have working for you, you. Know is it global? So that means you're going to be working. A bunch of different. You know, there's a lot of travel. You have to figure out what? Worth to you and then. And you can use. That to negotiate. OK, well, you know, especially after you've done some market research or what? You know what you think you should be paid. This is what I think that job is worth to me based on the information that you've told me, you can use that do you've asked your questions and learned about the role as much as you can, and it's hard in an hour. To do to know everything right? But what you're gathering what that role is, what? The value that you bring. So this is what you're saying you need. This is how the value I bring. In that role, I. Could say things like I traveled my whole life. Role requires a lot of travel. I don't get yet why? I don't know why. But I don't you know, so.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Yeah, that's a good value.

Cheryl Hayes

You know I don't. Get sick. Hardly ever. I should knock on my head here, but hardly ever. So it makes me reliable. You know, I have very high. Employee survey scores. I mean, there's certain things that I bring to. The table because I'm more. Lots of years of experience I. Bring that mentoring piece, too so you you can establish your value to the position. What you believe that position is? Worth you? Ask for that. I don't ever come out with a. Number when I'm negotiating. I want them to tell me the range because I want to know if they're even the right range and whatever number. They come up with. There's probably at least 10% more that's available and you just. Have to ask for it now I have asked. Over asked and I've lost. Help on some opportunities because. I've ever asked have to you. Know be reasonable, but there's other things maybe could ask for stock, for example. So no additional stock or that type of thing, so. Yeah, you should look. At negotiation as an entire package with your salary doc, your bonus and then additional parts that you may get or additional. Benefits that you may get because it's all-encompassing and I've had people ask for additional time, vacation and things like that. Always ask for what you. Feel you deserve. To get them to give you the number. First, because it. Was will weaken your negotiation. If you give them a number there, there have been cases where I've had to spit out a number and I. It's a gamble, right? And I think, like I said, I've lost a couple of opportunities because the number I said is too high.

Speaker

Right.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Well, yeah, we've done an episode on that actually to how to create a average number. Yeah, and if.

Cheryl Hayes

You throw out a number, you can say, look, you know, and generally what I'll do is look, I'm looking for the entire package, which includes stock bonus and salary. And this is the kind of area I want to be in. So how can you get there and then? Then you can get them to talk about I mean. Piece they they tend to be pretty much open with that so.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Yep, Yep.

Cheryl Hayes

This is your bonus. And then the salary they play around with. Because they want to get. As cheap as they. Yes, you wanna get you wanna get as much as you. Can cause. We all know how it works, right? Two 3% raises, that's. All you're gonna get, right? So unless you. Plan on moving around all. The time which is hard. I don't have so much of an appetite for it as. Maybe some someone earlier in. Their career does because it's really hard starting over. You constantly prove yourself. You have to develop relationships. Have to learn a lot. More for me again I have that. Natural curiosity, I like to. Learn it's not that easy because you have to navigate. I have to get people I. Started remote as striker. I didn't even. Know my team. You know, so.

Speaker

It was really.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

And during the pandemic, if I remember.

Cheryl Hayes

Yeah, yeah, it started in.

Speaker

Right.

Cheryl Hayes

March 2020. Yeah. So you know, that's that's hard. You know, developing that trust over time.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

So there is a cost you're saying right to moving around. So you've got to factor that into, yeah.

Cheryl Hayes

Yes, because we can all make more money going somewhere else.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

You know once.

Cheryl Hayes

You've been in A roll. For a while. You know 2 or 3% raises, that's not. Market rate, yeah. I think that's a lot trickier because companies just don't have the appetite for that. They can't be doing that for everybody. I mean, I found out I was hiring a girl in California. And I had asked for her salary information and the recruiter by accident sent me one of my peers, the guy, his information, who had just been promoted to director. I was director two years before him he made. More money than me.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Gender pay gap.

Cheryl Hayes

Is when I was furious and there was nothing I could do like I. Couldn't I couldn't. Say anything because I didn't want to get the recruiter and. You know, this happened years ago, I. Looked back at it and I thought.

Speaker

I probably should.

Cheryl Hayes

Have said something, but again, I didn't and. There was a there was a class action lawsuit. With Dell, that they weren't paying female. Directors California as much. And so it it stung. It really stung. And I was so far under the curve. Now there was one. Year and this is the. The first time that they had ever done that, they redid the salaries, so they they brought them back up to market rate and gave me 12%. And it wasn't during raise time. So more level set me but. That you have to. Make choices so you have to decide. Is the money. What's important to me that I'm going to have to leave even if I like my. If I'm going to make more money. To try to get more out of a company internally, that's really tricky and to be honest.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

It's good to have clarity and transparency, right, because there are some battles that you can fight and win. And some you. May not be. Able to and then you have to use a different strategy.

Speaker

Right.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

So one of the things that we started off with is confidence and anxiety over asking. So I'm wondering, could you perhaps tie your curiosity and how that helped you with confidence when you said that? I was thinking perhaps because you come at it from asking questions you don't feel like you're engaging in this kind of nebulous. Battle with someone.

Cheryl Hayes

Yeah, right. The more you, the more you know, the more confident you feel, right? So we ask those questions and. You or you learn about some. You can talk to it or the more that you you develop that confidence. I know something about this or I could use this tactic, you know, just what we're doing here. You know, hopefully we'll help somebody when they're trying to negotiate a salary. Right. Trying to negotiate something that they need for themselves. Right. And it's going to. Be uncomfortable. I mean again, because we're wired. For fear and it's just. It's easier to do nothing, but if you do nothing, the reward is nothing. Again, using that curiosity, learning, asking questions, reading. I read a lot too. Yeah, you know and. Again, I was telling you I like to look at. A lot of short. Podcasts and a lot of short. I like to read a lot.

Speaker

Of little short little.

Cheryl Hayes

Articles on LinkedIn or whatever, and so you get some. Tidbits all the time because, well, busy.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

I think that's.

Cheryl Hayes

What's helped me the. Most just to know that confidence.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

And I love that you're sharing your experience with us because trying to fast track, right? So whatever we've learned over like the last 20 years or we can put it in a package and hand it to someone so they can. They can jump start. So I like the attention you brought to us on curiosity because. It seems like. If you're curious, maybe you can get over your fears.

Cheryl Hayes

Yeah, I think that's a good way to. Look at it again. It's constantly have to work on and talk. Yourself out of but. It's a learned behavior and and that's the the point I want to drive home. You know, it's a learned behavior and it can. Be learned, yes.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

You've set us up really well, Cheryl. Today we should be thinking about curiosity. This is the first in a long series nightly. Be digging deeper into this concept of curiosity and negotiations.

Cheryl Hayes

Love it and thank you for having me, Dorothy.

Host - Dorothy Mashburn

Thank you. You take care. Bye bye. There you have it, my friends. Someone who is in the arena daily, her focus on courage, curiosity and the road to standing. Up for your worth. I hope you take a moment to let her story sink in and take pieces of it to apply to your situation. Whatever stage you might be at, remember that courage and curiosity are learned behaviors. So go ahead, give them a try. Start small. And then accelerate from there. Alright, my friends, signing off for today. Bye for now.