Hi, my boris, and this is straight talk sex crime. They're the jugions in terms of podcasts. Why are people so obsessed.
With the sex or the crime. I'm not going to explain to you why they're obsessed.
They're still had crime. Then, Gary Dribbling Gerbs working too straight talk mate.
You know, people would say an obsession, but if you put your hand up to run murder investigations, you should be obsessed. Quite often, I've been asked by people, how do you keep going on the investigation for twenty years. I look to the families of the victim and say, they're the ones that drive me. I would joke, but I'm not joking that when my relationships were in a good place, it was a bad time for the crooks because I had more time to concentrate on doing police work.
Gary Dribbling Jerbs working too Straight talk? Mate? Hello, Mark, Thanks for having me on fucking a long time since coming here, mate, Like, I don't know what the deal is. How many takeingds along for you, you and I to get together.
I don't know. We've been a little bit busy, a few things going on both sides, but I'm glad I'm here in.
There I never got that rematch with you, mate, because.
That's where it stems from.
Yeah, I never got the rematch with that, and I have to tell everybody. Garry and I jumped in the ring some years ago, and at that stage I was undefeated. When I was ambassador New South was police Boxing and the commission at the time was Mick full And Mick Fuller come out to me just before we are about to get it on and he said, I hope he fucking kills you. And that sort of rocked me a little bit before about getting the ring with him, and
he can fight this blake. So and he won. He won the match fair and square and good on your mate.
Well just on that mark. It was a good night and a lot of money was raised for charity. And I know you've been a big sponsor of police boxing. I did feel guilty in taking victory on that night, but as we know, it could could have gone either way.
You got a standing eight on me, You clocked me real good. You put a big right hand on me. I remember it and I thought, fuck this, I'm going to go and score up God. I remember grabbing hold of there's an old thing, Jeff, and good made of both of ours, but Jeff taught me. He said, so I grabbed hold of your left arm and I remember you you brace, and I thought I'd just give him a quick twist. I gave you a quick twist just
for the sake. But it was a good night, and we do look after police legacy, and it's important to look after police legacy. Gary. I don't want talk about AY podcasts just yet, because you know you have a very successful podcast and you've had lots of successful shows.
We'll come back to that second. But you were a policeman for a long time and something that I was getting told when you were prepping me, I was getting told things like this bloke to meet you is obsessed as an individual, and he was telling me that he's training at all sorts of hours, getting up at different times at times and I jumping, hitting a bag or whatever you're doing. And I thought, wow, he's an interesting character.
And I probably didn't take it serious enough. But you have you always been as no matter what you're undertaking, is particularly when you're a policeman, been an obsessive sort of person in that I don't know, I don't mean in a six sort of way, but in a sense that I've got to do the best job I possibly can.
Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think it's probably instilled into me from my father that was always pushing me as a hard man, always pushing me to go harder and further. I don't think I'm naturally talented at any one thing, but what they can do is really apply myself and commit to it. So, you know, using the boxing as an example, Okay, I've got a fight coming up, I'm going to get myself as prepared
as I can be and don't take shortcuts. That certainly worked for the police to people often said, like the naysayers, he's too passionate and all that, I think just lazy people say that. I think you've got to have passion for what you're doing, especially the majority of my career is homicide detective. But yeah, driven do those around me
pay the price? Yeah? They do. And this is you know, I can reflect back and look at things that the mistakes I've made with people that were close to me because I was focused on what I was doing, and homicide investigation is very hard not to really buy into it. You're on a case, so everything else falls by the wayside, and you've got to pick up the pieces afterwards.
I mean, a lot of cops that I've known. You know, these guys as well as I do. They retire early and sometimes, you know, they call it stress or whatever the case may be. But it doesn't matter retire really because the job does get to them. How is it, or maybe it did, How is it never really got to you?
Yeah, well, I suppose others will say it has. I always maintained the balance, or tried to maintain the balance. And long time ago, twenty five years or so, I was got into martial arts, but I also got into meditation, yoga, and a thing a practice called chigun, and I think that helped me. That helped me keep a baltance. And
I relied on that. And it's not that I practiced every day, and it didn't make me the most sen person in the world, but it made me have something in my back pocket that I could go to when I was feeling the stress. I also maintained physical fitness and boxing. Boxing is a great suade of taking the pressures of the day away because you're not worried about anything else other than trying not to get kicked or hit in the head. So yeah, I balanced it out
that way. But yeah, I've been fortunate and I've had I've had friends that have burnt out and you can see it and it comes as a shock. You think that is the last person I would have thought put their hand up and say I've had enough. But it just hits people in different ways. And yeah, I carry some of the some of the demons from the time in the cops, especially working homicide. But I just I don't know, just my mantra is just take the next step forward, just keep moving forward.
And there's nothing wrong, by the way with admitting a burnt out either made it both our ar and Clark. I mean Clarke, he's yeah, great, but a tough guy, saw a lot of stuff in his days, you know, sort of got to him in the end. I mean, and he'd be the first a minute. I'm not saying in the out of school here, but Clark, he just saw so much and put up with so much, and then you can't keep storing it for your whole life.
And and by the way, outlets like training exercise, I know you still train earlier mentioned earlier to me that you know you're still doing five days a week training Johnny Lewis down at Urka. We won't say the location because we don't want to let anybody know who's probably out there who doesn't like you. Perhaps you left left a few of those and you wait, so we're not going to say where. But but you know, you still train. But at the end of the day, it's not just training,
it's not just meditating or doing the yoga. Perhaps I don't think it's that. I think there's more to it. I think it's about understanding what it is you've been doing and why you've been doing and what the purpose it is why you do it. So maybe you just helped me out here. Obviously I'm not a competent. I've been a compet What is it that Gary Jubilan has done that has allowed him not to go nuts?
Having purpose? Like, having purpose is something that's important I get when I'm working a homicide investigation. My whole career is litered with families that I've become close with because of the intensity of a homicide investigation. They drive me quite often. I've been asked by people. They might say, how do you keep going on investigation for twenty years I look to the families of the victim and say, they're the ones that drive me and push me forward.
So it felt to me and this might I just try to explain this in the best way. It made me feel good about myself in that other aspects of my life might be perfect, but I'm doing good work every day I come to work, and yeah, you and I have spoken about it. Relationships. I've had a couple of marriage has breaken relationships. They're they're all the collateral damage, I think. But where I hid from all the chaos that was going in my private life was just to
throw myself in the work. And I can remember being a Christmas Day going in the office because I didn't want to face the chaos. It was my life at the time.
So that's funny that you said, because sometimes we make ourselves busy. There's a bit of an avoidance habit, avoiding what it is I don't want to confront yep or what I'm not enjoying. And when you're on a murder case, it's easy to justify that. You can say, look, look, you've got a murder.
You can you can hide behind it. And I'm mindful of that, and I think there's been occasions where you, Yeah, there is times when I think, look, okay, everything else is falling apart, but just keep focusing on the on the job you've got. I would joke, but I'm not joking that it's the reality. When my relationships were in a good place, it was a bad time for the crooks because I had more time to concentrate on the doing police work not the most healthiest way to live
your life. But I think at least I had I wasn't aware, I was aware of it. I knew what I was doing and that had control of it.
And would you would you have said then and hopefully now, but irrespective of maybe it had a negative effect on you in terms of what other things you're doing, relationships, etc. Would you say that, ultimately though, your purpose was a good purpose none less like I am trying to catch a killer for this family who has suffered the death and their family of what this killer or this perpetrator. When I've done, is that the good purpose?
Yeah, And that makes me feel like I'm doing some good. I'm doing something worthwhile. That was what I was getting back from the hours that I put in on the job. And working hard. And you know, people would say it's an obsession, but if you put your hand up to run murder investigations, you should be obsessed. And if you're going to do it and treat it like a nine five, get out of there and let someone that's prepared to make the sacrifices. We're not mucking around when someone's been killed.
We need to find out who killed that person. And it's as real as real can get.
It's funny, you know when in birth of you and I know number of commissioners who a number of whom I was doing the fighting for them for many years, and a lot of you get to meet and they'd say, why are you the ambassador? And I used to get asked this way, thembassador and yourself, police boxing and legacy, police legacy, and and I want to ask you this question. My response, generally speaking, was that police, the reward for risk for cops is not a fair equation relative to
what everybody else in the country does. So the amount of money you get paid and the accolades you get and the sense of response responsibility you get from the risk you take every single day private life risk, the risk you take in relation to your families. You could get anything can happen. The reward risk formula is wrong. Therefore, I feel as a citizen that I should be giving something back to the police. And I've got maids and
now I've got family who are coppers, et cetera. Why do police take this unfair reward versus risk transaction?
I think, And let me clarify, because with the police, there are some police that, yeah, I think they're taking this all for a ride, definitely, and like with those and that's where I get. You know, if you say police, we deserve more money, and that yeah, a large percentage of police deserve more money because they actually live and breed the job. But it's a public service, and I learned I always saw the joked about oh it's a
public service mentality and put public servants down. That was until I had a conversation with Margaret Kneen, the senior Crown prosecutor now a defense barrister, and I asked, Margaret, why are you working for the DPP when if you went to private you learned three times as much and blah blah blah. She said, I hear, and I enjoy serving the public, and that sort of that flipped my thinking to a degree that there is a noble thing
in being a public servant and serving the public. And I think most police join it for a thousand different reasons. But the ones that become good at it know that they're doing some good every day they turn up for work because it is a very rewarding job. Like thirty four years in the cops, I can't recall having the day off sick in that thirty four years, and I loved every day I came to work. So, yeah, it's got a lot going for it, these benefits to it.
Do you think there's It's a tough question, but do you think there's a lot of difference between the character of a policeman versus a criminal? Yeah, well, apart from the outcomes. I mean, like criminals are doing something it's socially unacceptable. I get that part, But do you think there's much different between the characters. You know that the cops just doing his best, the criminals just doing his best. Yeah, it might and it might be not socially acceptable, but is in much difference.
Look, the career criminals, I can sit down and have a conversation with them, and I've been fortunate. Since I've left the police, I've had a lot of people who have become close to that were in their day notorious criminals. We do have a commonality between us, and they understand where I'm coming from that I understand where they're coming from. I respect crooks, and obviously there's certain crimes that you wouldn't spit.
On the person that's done are unacceptable.
But I respect the way that they go about their business. It doesn't mean I agree with them. I respect that they some of them, some of the hard crooks, have a moral code that they stick to, and I respect people that are not hypocritical in the saying they do one thing but do the other. So yeah, I think there's definitely definitely a connection between the cops and the crooks. And quite often it's just a sliding door moment. Why has this person turned into a crook and why has
that person turned into a cop? And then they meet again. So I've had some fun catch ups with people that I was chasing throughout my career, past career.
It's funny. I don't know, if you ever come across this guy, he might be too young. How old are you now in your fifties sixty sixty, Well you might know this guy. It was a very well known criminal, barrassy guy called Patrick Costello. I know the name Pacastello was around with the Chris Murphy days, right, even Chris Uster sort of you know. And they're both defense lawyers, but usually in those days at the lower courts, because they were sort of making I'm going back in the
seventies and eighties, and yeah, they were. And I used always say about Pat passed away unfortunate, but I used to say about pack Costello, if Pat hadn't have been a great barras, he would have been a great gangster. Yeah, And I didn't see. And he represents a lot of crooks and in those days, and some of whom were mates of mine, Boyce I grew up with, and I and I in those days, we briefed me a few times when I was at law for them. So and so I got to known very well, very very well.
In fact, me and I had his wife and her best friend. She was my girlfriend and he's married this girl and said hang out together. But I also, I say to myself, Pat was like just within a whisker of not being a great criminal and there wasn't that much difference between the barrister or the law. And you know what is an officer of the court, which is what the coppers are effectively, You're an officer of the
government versus the criminal. And the sort of characteristics I'm talking about were they were smart, they were extraordinarily resilient. He was they are They are in incredibly creative in the ways they keep ahead of the law the crooks, and the law is incredibly creative in the way they try to catch the crooks. They all have big personalities, not all of them, but a lot of them have big personalities. And then they have hierarchies. There's politics within
the copps. There's a lot of politics, as you know very well, very well, but there's politics within the criminal environment to the criminal milieus. And is that something that sort of when you decided to do your podcast, I Catch Killers, is that something that became bleedingly even more obvious to you than ever in the past.
Yeah. I think if when I started the I Catch Killers podcast, the focus was going to be cops talking about cases they've done, that's got a you can only do that so much so often. And I thought, well, if I want to take people in the world of crime, the world of crime that I really know and understand. It's three hundred.
And sixty degrees.
And so I started bringing in some crooks that I've dealt with before, and Biky's and all sorts of things, plus the witnesses, so people listening to the podcast would get an understanding of what this whole world was about, not just the one dimensional good guys bad guys. And you hear the stories of some of the some of the bad guys their upbringing or things that happened in their life. I'd be a bad guy if that happened
to me. Yeah, So I take out the judgment of it, but yeah, I think it to explore and understand the world crime as I understood it, because it's a murky world. It's a dark world, but you find some light in that darkness with some of the people.
It's definitely not a simple world either. So we're both made of Russell Manzon. Russell's been shining light on trauma that a lot of criminals have suffered, like lifetime criminals you have suffered when there've been younger men at the hands of institutional institutions. So they have had either suffered institutional sexual abuse or institutional violence or both at younger age.
I'm talking you from teenagers up into incarceration, and then a lot of these guys they're just getting incarcerated, they get out, then they go back and commit the same crimes, and there's a commonality that there's a common denominator with a lot of the people he talks about, including himself.
By the way, do you think now that you're out of the cops, do you think to yourself sometimes, Wow, these guys are guilty of the crime, but they're not really guilty societally because to something, since society is a bit responsible for what's happened.
I do have that view now, Mark, because I've been out of the cops for three going on four years. When I was in the cops, I didn't really have time to think the while or how I'd be given the case. I'd work the case, try and find the person responsible for the crime, put them before the courts,
and then move on to the next one. So I didn't if I I think Russell was robbing banks when I was in the toil up squad around our area, so I was probably looking for Russell at certain times, but I wasn't concerned about what their upbringing was at the time. I had to My role was to find out who has been committing these crimes. Since I've stepped away from the cops, I've got a bit more clear air and I can look at it. Okay, why did
Russell turn out that way? Okay, that's pretty shit. I can understand why he's angry, or it was an angry young man.
The same as Morges. Yeah, it's the same deal. Yeah, yeah, different, it wasn't sexual, beuce, but it's still the same deal.
Jeffrey like his story. Jeffrey Morgan grew up an indigenous man, grew up around Redfern and talking about you know, when you got home, there'd be nine people trying to share one mattress and the best you could hope for was getting your head on the mattress and stuff like that. So, yeah,
they've all come from where they haven't got that nurture. Well, I won't say they haven't got the nurturing, because there were still people that love them, that things happened in their life that took their life in a certain path.
But how when you're in the police and this may be a character trade of yours. But how were you able to compartmentalize and just say, hang on, I'm a cop, I've got a My job is my transaction at the moment is I got to catch that particularly that murder or that robber. What in the case of be thief, I've got to catch that individual and I'm going to put get enough evidence put it before the courts of the courts can prosecute the particularly individual there's been charged.
How were you able to compartmentalize that yourself away from not thinking about the things that you have been more closer to in the last three or four years since you've been out of the cops. Did you purposely compartmentalize or there's just something naturally happens for all police.
I let it drift and drift into each part and one thing. And I think this helped me in my career as a detective. And all the good detectives, the ones that I looked up to and the ones that I respect, and the ones that are still doing the good work now they have this empathy. What makes a good detective? I say, empathy is right up there. And I've heard all these great detectives drop the same thing.
What's that about is that sometimes you get confessions from people, or you get information from people because you do genuinely care. It's not fake, it's not transactional. You care. I would get information from people phone me anytime, and my phone would phone anytime. I'd run informants. Mate, I will always have my phone on me. You called me anytime, they might call me at two o'clock every night for a week, who knows, but I'd take the calls. So I think
you've got the way that you get through that. So you don't have to good guys bad guys because sometimes they've overlapped, but you try to understand where they're all coming from. And that helped me in my police and that was what I was shown by people I looked up to.
So being in a position where you can take call at any time, or preparedness to take call at anytime, in other words, access that would eat into your private life by time.
Oh, I just you make me think of how many fights I've had about can't you turn the phone off? In different different relationships. And I remember getting so many phone calls one night just literally sitting up that it was pointless to go to bed because I'm going to get called, and I'm going to get called. But as I said, the type of work I was doing in the policing, it was a homicide work. So you've got to embrace it. You've got to be ready for it.
There's little things. I was at home one night, Sunday night. It was a phone call at ten o'clock and it was a lady who was a victim of a sexual assault something fifteen or seventeen years before, and so ten o'clock. I hadn't spoken to it for fifteen years, and she phoned up and I woke up. It was about ten o'clock or whatever. I woke up Sunday night and answer the call. And she goes, oh, you probably don't know who this is, and she mentioned the name. I go, yeah,
of course I do. And the thing that she needed some advice on something. There was an issue that had occurred. The fact that I still remembered who she was and cared enough to sit up and talk. I get reward in different ways in that it was just a good thing. It made me feel like I'm doing the right thing. But I didn't realize how much you were on call or how much you were a slave to your job until I left, And for the first six months, I'm
looking around thinking why isn't anyone fanning me? Why isn't this happening. You don't really realize how deep you've dived into that hole until you step away from it.
Is it addictive?
I think it is. Mark It's addictive, and it's competitive. And you know you are a hunter in effect when you're trying to solve a crime. You know the drive. You understand that. I'm sure you channel that energy in different different areas, but it's almost like a personal challenge. It confronts and okay, let's see what happens here.
Yeah, but it can confront other people, so colleagues can say, oh, fuck him, like I don't like him because he's trying to add I mean, I mean the police service is a huge, huge, massive business. Like it's a big, big business, and you know, sitting at the top of that you have commissioners and you have deputies, and you have ac is underneathn and then there's a massive hierarchy. It's ridiculously big hierarchy, and the politics can nearly divide the police force down the middle.
Oh, it's politics are just disgraceful. The politics down the middle.
It's like any massive, big organization, and especially when probably particularly these days, when everybody's got to say and you have to loosen everybody. I mean like culturally we are happens in business too, but like culturally, you have to listen to what everybody's position is, and everybody now knows that and everybody will put their position. Do you have any regrets having left the cops.
Look, I wouldn't want to be in there now. I wouldn't trust being in the police for what happened to me, and you know, we can just discuss that or whatever I was charged with recording conversations. I wouldn't trust an organization that turned on me the way that they did, and people turned on me for personal vendetta or personal reasons. Yeah,
I've been called the polarizing person in the cops. I find it funny still to this day people talk about, oh, yeah, I know Gary Jubil and I did this, I did that with him, or I told him the bully's head in and all that. These are people who haven't even met so they're making stories up around me. And I challenge anyone to come and speak to me face to face and say what they've got to say. I really when I say a surprised. I had some people that
I respect. Soonior Police Nick Caldos, I mentioned his name. I don't think he'd be concerned. He spoke to me prior to anything blowing up about me and he said, just be careful, Jubs. You've got a high profile in this organization and they'll try to take you down at some stage. It was almost like predicting the future because it happened very much that way.
He's a deputy at the time.
Yeah, yeah, and I got a lot of respect for him. He was one of the good bosses and just what happened to me, without going into the details, there were people that were setting personal agendas why I don't know why I just turned up and did my job at work, and whether they felt threatened by that, whether they felt threatened by the informal power balance I had because people recognized me as a homicide detective. I've seen that happen
to others. When it did buy up in New South Wales Police and it hit the media and it was fed to the media by New South Walle's police. Just shamefully just this type of information that was fed to the media about me Ron Edles, who's a well known ex homicide detective from Victoria, and Charlie Bezina, also the homicide high profile homicide detective from Victoria. I hadn't worked with them, we knew of each other their work that they've done. They both reached out to me and told me, look,
keep your head up high. This is what happened to us. Say, both went through the same type of thing. And it's just an organization I think, with the public service or the police, they don't like anyone sticking their head above the group. If you stick your head above the group, people want to pull you down. And I think that's part of it.
Why, I mean, I don't understand why is that why? I mean, even if you do stick a head up, even if you have a little bit of ego, I mean, I don't know if that's a bad thing. I mean, I mean, unless it sort of gets in the way of judgment, perhaps, but that always end up being the accusation that people make his ego got in the way of judgment.
Yeah, and you're relaying and I hear that and I laugh at them. As I would laugh at them to their face if they said it to me. I've heard those things. An ego was what was my ego? Oh that's right. I worked hard and went on some tough jobs. Some of the jobs I worked on were high profile. That wasn't me just picking jobs because I wanted the profile. That was me doing the work. And I know there was people that were saying, oh, look, he's sticking his
head up too high. Why are the media speaking to him? Or he loves the media. They were speaking to me because I was doing the hard yards, doing the work and running running the jobs. And that's what people didn't get. And it gets me. I won't say angry, although I'm not really hiding it, it does get me a little bit angry that people say that my status in the cops changed, I think, or the people started to have opinions before they didn't know who I was, or unless
I worked with them. With the Underbelly TV series came out Underbelly Badness.
And the apcial original Underbelly.
Yeah, in that whole series, and so they build a series on Underbelly Badness and made of yours, made of mine. Matt Nabel played me and you know that when I was in the Cops, and from that time I felt like I had a bit of a target on the back. Now I didn't give it to Channel nine or whoever was screening and go hey, put me on Underbelly. They came to Senior Police, and Senior Police said, well, this is the toughest job running at the moment. That was
a job, the murder of Terry Falconer. And so then they did the series on that and they portrayed me in the private life, professional life and all that.
I know.
There was a shift after that because public Servant stuck their head up jealousy. I hate saying that mark because I sound like a wanker if I go, oh, they're just jealous, So I really hold back on that. I'm just saying that, like, factually, once you had that recognition, I know, and it worked for my favor it worked against me. I'd get in the witness box. I know, some barrasses go, oh, that's it Underbelly, dude, let's carve him up in the witness box. So they go a
little bit harder and build their reputation that way. But it also helped in the profile that I had. If you were a crook or a suspect. If I get a knock on the door, they're going to get shit it's him, and I would use that. I would use that. But yeah, I know I polarize people in the cops. Some people don't like me because I expected them to work on the strike force. And I'll make no apologies for that. Like, if they're not going to work, I'm
going to call them, call them out on it. Other people, even if they didn't like me personally, I'm sure they respected respected the work that I did.
If you didn't call it jealousy, we just just put down a human nature. Like human nature people, some will follow someone who's got a profile, who's been seen as being successful through the media, for example, and there will be some who won't follow. You can call it polarizing. Becau's basically polarizing me. You just split the joint down the middle. Whenever you have a brand, and you know, Jubilant had a brand. When you in the police force, you're going to get some people like it and some
people don't like it. To me, it's just human nature of the organization, the human nature of the total organization, especially when it's a big organization. Yeah, it's normal.
And I and this is again just a theory with policing because I wonder because it happens to so many police. So you know, I'm not the first, I'm not the last. I'll get a profile and get taken down or brought down level. This is my theory, Mark, and I haven't spoken to a psychologist about it, so it's not based on anything. It's just a theory floating around in my head. You join the police, you get a badge, you get a gun, you get authority, you're the policemen. You walk
out on the street, you've got power. People even in your social circuit circle, Oh that's a cop. He's a cop. So your status is elevated above. Yeah, I'm saying above the society that you've got power. You've got the power to pull your gun and kill someone if you have to in the right right charge sense, yeah, or charge them, take away the liberty. There's a lot of power that goes there, and there's respect that goes there. Then you
put us all in there together. And so we've got an office, open plan, an office of sixty or seven people around there. Well, no one's looking at a special for being a cop, because we're all cops, so we cancel each other out. But then in that group of sixty or seventy people, one or two of those people rise above the people left there are trying to drag them down because they're used to having the authority. Yeah, I'm the cop, and when you're in that organization, you
stick your head up a little bit higher. Let's drag him down or drag her down, because it makes the rest of us look poor.
It's a really interesting analytic or analysis of how the police force works. And I've been watching for a long long time. I've seen lots of commissioners come and go, and I've seen lots of blokes and may up being the case with our current commission but get stamped pretty hard, well deservingly, undeservingly. And also, people don't forget what happened on the way up. So if anything gets a bit wobbly, it was up there. You know who's got their profile
up there. If there's anything wobbly on the way up, it tends to get brought up. Yeah, as it gets thrown back at him, I'll square up with him.
And then I think you understand the police. With the police that. You know, there's little clicks, little groups and all that. If I look back at my career, that's probably I won't say a mistake, it's just the way I rolled. But I didn't have a click.
I wasn't beholding You can't be isolated.
Yeah, yeah, I wasn't beholding to anyone or you know. I just did my own thing and got to I got to the rank of a commissioned officer, chief inspector. I was happy there. Some people are thinking, why didn't you want to climb higher? I like the work at that level. I like to be involved in the investigations. That's what I wanted to wanted and that confused people. We're thinking, what's it, what's he doing? What's what's this
all about? And I never really safeguarded myself by being in little clicks, so people were beholding to me and vice versa. I just was on my own.
So when you just when you left, you're probably happy. When you're left, you probably got a bit of you probably got a bit of shock because I remember when it happened, and it looked a bit untidy. How did you feel like your whole life, your whole life's commitment and or purpose was just taken away from a really short notice.
What was a feeling I was gathered and when you talk short notice, just quickly to put it in perspective, it was on a Tuesday that the professional standards turned up executed search warrants. I was taken upstairs, have my gun taken off me, my phone's taken off me, blah blah blah. Left finished in the building about six o'clock and just had nothing and just walked and it was just totally totally rocked me. The weekend before that, so we're talking to Tuesday. The weekend before that, two police
officers were shot up near Tamworth. I was flowing up there to oversee that investigation. I get back, I come back from there.
Then they were investigating driving incidents.
This was a different one, a person with firearms that they went to a domestic situation. Two police officers shot and the offender shot and shot himself. So I oversee that. Then I come back to Sydney and then there's a murder up at Newcastle. I go up to Newcastle oversee the murder investigation up there. Then Tuesday and then Tuesday afternoon. From that was my life as in. Yeah, I'll go do this, do that too. You're out out of the cops.
Suspend it or it will finish. Now.
I wasn't suspended and they could say whatever they want. There was no way they could suspend me. It was so ridiculous. What the charges? What the charges were? They said to me, And a senior police officer at State Crime said, oh, Gary, you'll probably go off sick now, and just go off sick. And I said, I haven't had a sick day in thirty four years. I'm not going off sick. I'm turning up. I put my suit on.
I turned up the next day and they wouldn't let me in the homicide office, an officer that have been for twenty years. I got shoed out of there like it was some annibal lector that just walked into the homicide office. Then they put me in a room on level nine, which is where all the bosses sit. And when I say a room, it was just like a cupboard space with a glass tradition, and that's where I sat for a couple of months before I just said, this is ridiculous. But I turned up every day and
just sat there. They took me off all the investigations. I wasn't allowed to work on any of the investigations I was running at the time, and I just sat there, and I know people were being told that, people that were close to me, saying, they're trying to provoke you
to do something stupid, snap or whatever. So I sat there playing whale and meditation music just to annoy the fuck out of them as they walked past, and like a cage line that they walk past, and I'd just be sitting there playing meditation music and it almost sent me insane, but it was my way of sort of getting back.
Do the podcast. How did they come back?
Well, it's funny how life turns out. I've had When I was in the police, people had made approaches to me about you, if you leave the cops, you can come into the media, and that was quite often. People would suggest that I wasn't going to leave the cops. I love the cops. That was my passion. When this incident happened, I caught up with someone because I worked with News Corp. And sixty minutes and just a friend of mine, a producer from sixty minutes said you want
to catch up for a drink? I said, yeah, and she said, how's your week, and I've gone, how's my fucking week? Because it hadn't hit the media at that stage, and she's gone unbelievable. But anyway, that's good because the reason I met you is I wanted to see if
you'd be interested in doing something with sixty minutes. And then Claire Harvey at News Corp. I had a meeting with her and she spoke about what we could do, and so I had quite a few, quite a few offers, and I had other people reaching out to do security work, that type of thing. So I wasn't short of short of options. But then the News Corp one suited me. Went with News Corp and signed to do write articles and do podcasts.
Why are people crimes? Sex crime? They're the two big ones. Yeah, Like in terms of podcasts especially, why are people so obsessed? Like audiences are talking about the sex or the crime.
I'm not going to explain to you why they're obsessed, Okay, we'll talk talk about crime. I think it's a world that they don't get to see. That's part of the reason I joined the cops. I wanted to see what was behind that police tape. That's why I became a detective. I'd turn up to the crime scene and I'd see the detectives walk in there. That's why I wanted to find out what's going on. I think we've all got
a fascination for crime. We all think that we're detectives in our own right that show us the clues, we'll explain what's happened. And it's just a world that we don't get to see. And it's a world that's you know, some people might have a mundane life or just the day to day. It takes us out of that day to day living and gets the adrenaline running. And I think that's what makes me serious.
Your show started off interviewing who.
By the type people cops, cops that i'd worked with. My first, very first podcast was with Jason Evers. He'd been my partner in homicide for ten years. He was out of the cops and we Claire's idea, why don't we gather a pub, will have it like two blakes just talking. The audience will be a fly on the wall. And that was the first season. So I got a lot of cops doing that. That was good, but I had to stop because we were drinking catch up with
some old cops. We'd start recording the pub at about eight o'clock and I'll a beer to make it look really sick, and we'd have a beer and then you'd finish that. Then they'd have lunchtime. Let's have a beer now, and I just I did one season that and said no more alcohol, Let's move to a studio, and then we looked at There was one in the first season, Jaron Badget, an aboriginal lady grew up on the block.
Bumped into her when I was walking through the city kicking stones, and she just left the plat said of falling out with the police, And I said, how about you come on the come on the podcast. Because she joined the cops because she grew up in the block in Redfern and didn't want her family treated the way she was treated when she was growing up in the block. Really interesting person, really interesting perspective. I said, come on the podcast. She's gone, I can't. You've got all these
super cops, you know, all these high profile detectives. I said, trust me, come on, and we did her podcast, and people just she's saying to this day, people are still contacting about her about it, understanding her perspective being an aboriginal lady in the police and growing up on the block, and that sort of got me to thinking I can do more with the podcast. And then we've sort of branched out and had a whole whole range of people.
Try to keep the theme of crime running through because mostly there is a connection with the crime, but occasionally we just break out because I think if we just do crime all the time, it's too dark. Like, Okay, I'll get a bloke on that murdered three people. Okay, next season we've got someone that's murdered five people. Yeah, where does it end? So I'm just trying to give it some life in letting people tell their stories.
What is now You've gone from the college, you just get paid a wage. You used to get paid a wage every week. Now running your own business, a podcast business, and other things you do that sort of surround the broadcasting industry. What have you learned about that part of your life relative to what it used to be like when you used to get a paypack it every month, every week, whatever it's.
I think people that do get a pay packet each week should be thankful that they get a pay pack. It so public servants or long term secure job because it certainly it takes the pressure off and you can concentrate on your work now and you're going to get paid when Like, I've set up a company and I run it as a company, and I had to learn all about tax and all stuff completely foreign to me because I didn't have to know about it. You know, you're on on the policeman's wage. There wasn't much issue
on tax. Now we're doing funds and different things that I've really had to learn. When I learned, I've got an accountant that helps me through and set sets things up. But that in itself at the level when I left as a cop, I was a detective, chief inspector. I had a team under me. If I wanted something done, could you do this? Could you do that? All of a sudden it became me running a business. Where's my stationary? I can't say, yeah, a simple things like that, could
you print that? We haven't got the printer. So I had to set up an office. I had to start to think a little bit differently. I got to say, I'm enjoying it, and I give this advice to people too. Working for yourself is very invigorating, and it got to the point I was so sort of in the cop mode, like I'd be asked to do a talk or asked to come on your podcast, I'd have to do a report and then the return report report. Now I can just make my own decisions, work when I want to work,
and I'm fortunate that the work's there for me. I understand I'd probably look at it a little bit differently if I didn't have the work. But I'm enjoying it, and I'm enjoying being rewarded for working hard, because sometimes in the police they want to pull you down if you have some success. I was surprised with the first season of the podcast people coming up to me and saying, well done, that's great. You know, it's going really well, it's charting well, all that sort of stuff, And I'm
sort of, where's a punchline? Because you wouldn't get that in the cops. The cops didn't never gave you a pat on the back for doing anything.
So what's your watch your outut now? In terms of I catch killer? So it's one podcast week, one podcast a week for that? Yet for that what other things you're doing.
I do a podcast series like in Predatory, which is looking at child sexual abuse, breaking badness. When I went in the prisons about that, yeah, yeah, this was it was a really interesting experience. And this was just last year that Corrective Services got in contact with me and said would you be interested in doing a podcast at the Macquarie Correctional Center up at Wellington. I said, yeah, in what form? Well, we're trying something a little bit
different in the prison. It's a maximum security prison. Will give you full access to the prison and you go wherever you want, blah blah blah, have a look around and you report on what you see in the podcast.
Form like a series ten episodes. So I think we have seven episodes. Seven episodes.
And so I went into this maximum security prison and you could imagine how popular I am. And before I went in, you're going through the gates and the metal detectors and all that, and I said to Corrective Services how are they going to react to me in there? And They've gone We've got no idea. I'm thinking, oh Jesus, what's going to happen here? So I've walked in and yeah,
the reaction was as you would expect. The reaction people who just snarl at me, people make have a go at me, and or other people who just ignored me gradually, and it was almost caused all this drama in the prison. Well, if he's in here, we're not doing this, We're not doing that type situation. And it got to the point where I sat down with some of the power breakers in the prison, as in the criminals, the inmates, and
explain what I was doing there. I said, look, what they're doing here at Macquarie Center is changing the dynamics of the way traditionally people are in prison in that they're giving them reward, they're giving them responsibilities, they're giving them freedom, They're they're living more like they would on the outside in there. And I said, if you Blake say this is good, no one's going to listen to you because you're the bad guys and people don't care.
They think you should be breaking rocks and eating bread and water. If I as an ex cop that you don't like, if I understand you don't like me for the position I hold, if I'm saying that works, maybe that carries a little bit more weight credit and the credit, yeah, it gives it credibility, and on that basis, they let me walk around without too many dramas.
And when you say power brokers, how do you identify them? And or does the credit services identify them for you? Than the range of meeting way.
You can I can look around them pretty much pick out who's got the power, who has him in by reputation, looking reputation there and look and all that. And yeah, some of the younger prisoners they would arc up with me because they want to make a name for themselves. Some of the more seasoned prisoners would they just turn their back on me and walk away. That was their statement. Others would be bold enough because I wouldn't shake hands unless it was offered to me because that can cause dramas.
And then I know the ones that are prepared to come up and shake my hand, they're making a statement. Well, they don't give a stuff what other people think. Yeah, I'm in control of the situation here. So it was interesting.
There was some funny comments and some funny moments. And I had were at Wellington Prison, Like there's Macquarie Correctional Center and Wellington's a more traditional prison, both maximum security prisons, and I'm walking around and someone's yelling or what they're going to do to me, and that was very pleasant.
But yeah, they're funny. They're funny in the way that they're saying it, and they're the sort of mob starting the form around me and I had I got them talking and we started to talk and I said to them, yeah, okay, guys here on the platform to what do you need in prison? And I'm being genuine like that, and some smart ass yells at how about a set of fucking keyser doupe? But that type, that type of humor. So it was an experience. Mark It was an experience that
I never thought i'd get, and I enjoyed it. It was, you know, a little bit tense at times. I was always you know, I didn't want to walk around with a swagger that everything's cool, because that would have been disrespectful to them. I'm in their environment, so I treated them with the respect. And but yeah, I walked into the the factory area where they're working on machines and I could see two blokes look at me point and then another group come and form and I think, oh shit,
where what what do I do here? I thought I'll just go over. Yeah, Hi, Gary Jubilin, you know who I am, and they're all standing right around me. Another group that were there when I was speaking to a group of them, they made the point because I was saying, is it working here in the prison in this Macquarie Correctional Center, And they made the point, well, do you really think you'd get out of here if you're in
another prison, because they're all sitting around me. And I said, in another prison, I wouldn't be sitting in the center of a circle. So stuff like that. But all jokes aside, I really think they're onto something, and that's something I'm really proud of the fact that I can help in some way reduce crime by reducing recidivism and getting people say they've been in jail, they can come out and be a productive member of society. So that's sort of
the rocking the boat doing that type of stuff. Only yesterday I was at being invited to Parliament about a restorative justice system, and yeah, it's good that I'm doing things that I think are worthwhile.
Do you think the system is changing that? Because I often wonder whether or not prison's actually the right answer for a lot of criminals. In fact, I think it makes it worse sometimes sometimes you have to. There are some prisoners just there's some people who just must be imprisoned. They're just total dangers society and to themselves themselves for that matter. But largely I don't know if prison really works in terms of rehabilitating people or getting people ready
to rejoin society when they come out. Do you think there's now something evolving so much so that Parliament, which where it's got to start. Parliament and the public service and all those people who administer this is a starting to think, well, maybe there's a better way of doing this sort of stuff.
Yeah, I do, And I think if it's not working because we've got the high rate of receipsism, people go in jail, I come out, and then up back in jail ridiculously high rate. And I haven't got the figures in my head. But if we can break that cycle, everyone benefits. Costs money from a fiscal point of view, it costs money to have people house in prisons. If we can integrate them back in the society, I think
it's a much better place. And Ken marslu his son was murdered, shot in the back of the head with a shotgun. Nineteen year old kid working in the pizza hut. Ken was angry. This happened about twenty years ago, and he wanted the world. He wanted to crack down on crime, mandatory sentencing, all that stuff. He's now I had him on the podcast, so I got him on the podcast. On that Breaking Badness podcast said, Okay, from a victim's point of view, he made the point that if you
reduce crime, you reduce victims. I'm one hundred percent for it. If we can make the prison system a better that the people come out better than when they went in, that's a benefit to everyone, and I agree.
One other thing is Gary jubilin doing is see you did Breaking Badness that they're they're like your special episode series, and you did that for the Creational Services Department of Correctional Services. You got your own show. I soon recall you. You are a host of a let's call it a road show with a math you dude, Yeah, yeah, a year or so. Goo, what's that about?
Okay? I it was put to me after when I'm out of the cops, like doing the podcast, written two books, and it was put to me about doing a live tour and what do you mean to do a live tour, a live stage shop? And I've gone a look, I'm happy where I am. And they came back to me. The promoters came back to me and said, look what if you did it with your mate Rob Carlton. Rob Carlton's the good mate of mine and he's been an actor.
He's a Kerry Packer, played Kerry Packer LOGI Award winning actor and just a fun blake and a good mate. Do it with Rob and I going, Okay, let's do this tour. So we're playing all the capital cities round around the country. Cavid hit or delayed, and we had to put it off, put off. It was put off twice, and I was quite glad the second time because I thinking, why am I putting so much pressure on myself a live show? People paying money to come and come and see me entertain them. I'm a cop or X cop
and I'm struggling in my new world. The planets aligned and the theaters were opened up again. So I had about two weeks before I'm playing at m More Theater, sold out m More Theater on a Saturday night, and I've gone, Rob, so what are we going to do and are we going to sit down Q and a's He said, no, stupid, this is a theater. We're going to take the audience on the journey. And I've gone farck, where do we go here? And we put together a show that I'm very proud of it. It's stuff that
people wouldn't expect. You know, I'm robed When I say I'm role playing, I'm playing myself. And Rob pointed that out. It can't be that hard. You're playing yourself. He would play a crook in certain parts. And it was really theater theater. It had laughter, it had tears, that had everything, and we toured around the country with it. I was like a sponge learning from Rob, like he just knows how to hold the stage and all that. So it
was a great experience. And then on the back of that, Michael Francis was Mafia Captain in the Mafia, one of the most powerful mafia figures in any heyday in the US. He was doing the to her and he asked me to host his tour. So I'm doing a few of these live shows. I've learnt a lot, Like I was so nervous the first night at ed More Theater, and Nick for them is my manager. And Nick said, mate, you know Nick, and he's gone, it'll be right, It'll
be right, guarantee, audience love it. Blah blah blah blah blah. And that's the last words he says to me before we're ready to roll. Rob's in the room next door doing sound practicing. I'm shadow boxing. I'm just trying to dump all this adrenaline to I'm ready to walk out on stage. And then at the end of the show standing ovation and Nick came up to me and said, Jesus, mate, I was a bit worried. I thought for you deep thanks telling me Mark, Look, I really I really enjoyed it.
I like at different stages in your life, it's good to have a challenge. And that was challenging and I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about working in the audience and on the stage, and it's given me the confidence to do a lot of other things that I think it's helped in a lot of aspects. And what haven't you.
And I just want to finish off on this one. But given that you're doing a whole lot of new things, or you've done a whole lot of new things for your life. In the last four years, You've experienced a whole lot of things you never thought you'd experienced before. As you said, you're effectively being performer in terms of live theater, live a live perform, which is pretty tough. But you think you do your podcast, you're a broadcaster. You're obviously trying to attract sponsorship so you can so
you can pay the bills. You got to pay the bills. You got to pay yourself. No matter, what is it that, given all these new experiences, all these new things you're doing, what is it that Gary Jubilan has not let go of? What things do you keep doing to keep your feet on the ground?
As in where I am now, I self critique in everything I do, Like I always think, Okay, that was good, but could it be a little bit better. I'm hard on myself, and I hope I I ease up on myself to a degree. But I I'm as good as my last podcast, I'm as good as my last TV interview. Could have I done that better? That type of thing that keeps me grounded. I've got mates, old mates that kept me grounded when I was a cop, And I think That's why I survived policing so long, because I
didn't hang out with cops. I had my mates that bring me back to reality. Yeah, I have friends that will go watch this stage show and then I'll catch up with ma after and they'll be making fun of me and just keep keeping it real, taking the piss out of me a little bit. I think that helps. I've got more time now to spend with my children and my family, which also helps me. I just yeah,
you mentioned I train with Johnny Lewis. There's a good little group that we get together every morning and characters from all different walks. So I've got that social thing because that's what I lost when I left the cops. Like my day was, I'd be speaking to twenty thirty people each day, and then that was taken away from me. Even when I'm doing the podcast stuff, I've got my office set up at home, but quite often, if i haven't got a guest or whatever, I've just got to
motivate myself the whole time. And yeah, sometimes that lounge looks good. I'm okay play on the lounge and have a sleep, But I try to regulate it. And when I walk into that room, and shut the door. That's work time, so that that gives me that structure in life and that helps me stay balanced. But look, my life is a journey. I'm still on the journey. I'm all over the place on things. I just I do things that interest me. What I'm doing now is interesting me.
It's challenging me, and like I'm enjoying it.
I really going to appreciate. I really appreciate similar to you that my my podcast life is since I started eight years ago. My god, we first started podcasting my every first podcast, we had six people in the studio. I don't know what I was thinking. It was a half hour podcast. I was trying to do six people at once. And we've evolved over a long period of time. But most of the time we're just scrambling, not really knowing what the fuck we're doing. There's no guidebook for
any of this shit. You just you know, maybe Joe Rogan or someone that, but their audiences we go through a mean people live in Merriica. We don't have that here. So it's an interesting process for me. It's just like it has been few and I have to say that I'm obsessed with crime. I'm obsessed with criminals. I'm obsessed with policing. I'm obsessed with who done it? So I love who Done It, whether it's a real life who
Done It? Or even if it's a movie or that's what I love to watch on Netflix, Who Done It? I think you live in your business world. You live in a world which a lot of people would be jealous of. I mean a lot of people would love those that world. But I have to tell you, Gary, mate, I'm filthy that you left the cops and didn't get my rematch. And the other thing that I'm filthy on is that Maddie Nabel, who, by the way, God rests brother who recently died from motor neurone disease. And we're
sorry Maddie for that new family's loss. But he coming to me three weeks before, I was having a coffee up the road and he coming to me three week saidfore we were due to fight. And he said to me, I'm going to come watch a fight. And I thought cool, because I've known many for many years. I thought he's going to watch me and I said yeah, I said, you know the bloke and fighting because I didn't really know you. And he said, yeah. Yeah, he's a good friend of mine. And he said, I played him in
the series. And he said, and I said, I really, he said, you come to watch. Yeah, he's I rootin from me. He said, I mean, I'm going to be effectively in his court, not in your corner, but like you know, behind you. And I said, fuck, like thanks, Maddie, Like I was actually devastated. Man, I'll be honest, I was really filthy.
I'm sorry, sorry about that.
That's all right, mate, and I don't worry. But I just that made it more so that I wanted to rematch. And but you left the police timely because I know basically the vitalizing you did not want to remake.
Are you suggesting fake nor lists? Yes.
But the good thing about it is I'm happy about it because look what you've done for yourself. You've turned yourself in a great broadcast, that you've got a great podcast, you're you're you're right up there in terms of most listened to shows. You do a great live show. And I'm really happy to learning about yourself and learning about a different type of life and enjoying it at the same time and making a quid.
Thanks, mate, Jesus