Against the Rules with Michael Lewis - podcast cover

Against the Rules with Michael Lewis

Pushkin Industriesatrpodcast.com

Journalist and bestselling author Michael Lewis explores the figures in American life who rely on the public's trust, whether in sports, in business, in the courtroom, or on TV. What happens when that trust erodes and we can no longer agree on what's fair and what's not?

In the latest season of his podcast, Michael takes on America’s newest form of legalized gambling, sports betting, and how it’s changing what it means to be a player…a teenager…and most of all, a fan.

iHeartMedia is the exclusive podcast partner of Pushkin Industries.

Episodes

Dr. Laurie Santos on Group Psychology, the Teen Brain, and Happiness

Michael Lewis invites over Yale psychology professor Dr. Laurie Santos, host of The Happiness Lab at Pushkin, for a chat about what scientific research has to tell us about sports fandom, teenagers, and gambling. You can sign up for The Happiness Lab newsletter here . See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information....

Feb 04, 202530 minTranscript available on Metacast

Natasha Schüll on the Antisocial Lure of Gambling

As an anthropologist, Natasha Schüll spent more than a decade doing field work in Vegas casinos, especially among the slot machine addicts. She tells Michael Lewis why many of those who play slots actually hate to win. And she talks about how the digital overhaul of Vegas has made all forms of gambling, including sports gambling, more like slots. For further reading: Addiction by Design: Machine Gambling in Las Vegas by Natasha Schüll. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy informatio...

Jan 28, 202531 minTranscript available on Metacast

Episode 10: “Anybody Can Win, but Everybody’s Gonna Lose”

Perhaps you have someone in your life who’s prone to sports gambling. Michael Lewis has someone. So he comes up with a scheme to “inoculate” his 17-year-old son against the lure of placing bets online. All the while, Lewis tries to craft the perfect “master class” for would-be gamblers to understand the dangers of what they might be getting themselves into. Here's his reading list: The Logic of Sports Betting by Matt Davidow and Ed Miller Stephen Pinker’s Rati...

Jan 21, 202546 minEp 10Transcript available on Metacast

Episode 9: Framing the Gambler

Michael Lewis gets a glimpse of sports gambling's future by talking with writers in Great Britain and Australia, where the industry is even more entrenched. But the US has its own peculiar history of failing to regulate dangerously addictive new products, and blaming the users instead. Especially when powerful industry advocates are able to pay scientists to sow doubt and delay the day of reckoning. For further reading:  Lying for Money: How Legendary Frauds Reveal the Workings of our World...

Jan 14, 202530 minEp 9Transcript available on Metacast

Episode 8: The Integrity Landscape

Has betting based on inside intel on games gone down since sports gambling was legalized in the US? Not really, as Michael Lewis finds out. But what's gone up is misery for athletes. We hear from Atlanta Hawks forward Larry Nance, Jr. about the rage, threats and wheedling that pro athletes now endure. The NCAA, former Massachusetts governor Charlie Baker, is trying to protect student athletes on campus, while their friends all bet on them, often underaged. Overall, the “integrity landscape...

Jan 07, 202538 minEp 8Transcript available on Metacast

The Riskies: The Best, Worst, and Most Interesting Decisions of 2024

We hear from Nate Silver and Maria Konnikova, poker sharps and co-hosts of the Pushkin show “ Risky Business ,” as they share the year’s most notable decisions in their first annual Riskies award show. What were the best, worst and wildest decisions of 2024, from politics to sports to business? Also: degen of the year, nit of the year, and the cognitive bias that best explains 2024. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information....

Dec 28, 202422 minEp 7Transcript available on Metacast

Michael Lewis on the Prof G Pod

Just recently, Michael Lewis was a guest on the " Prof G " podcast with Scott Galloway. He talks about the rise of sports betting and why the consequences might be a "disaster" for US society. And the two discuss the subject of Lewis's latest book, "Going Infinite."  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dec 24, 202432 minEp 8Transcript available on Metacast

Vegas Sports Bookies on Old-School Betting

On a visit to Las Vegas, Michael Lewis meets three old-school sports bookies. Chris Andrews, Jimmy Vaccaro, and Vinny Magliulo book bets and set odds at the South Point Hotel Casino. They talk about how they got started in Vegas, the origins of the prop bet, and why it's bad for business to limit smart bets. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dec 17, 202430 minTranscript available on Metacast

Gambler Billy Walters on the Sharp's Life

Michael Lewis sits down with Billy Walters, one of the most famous sports bettors of all time. They talk about Walters' impoverished childhood in Kentucky, and his transformation from an auto dealer to a professional poker player in Las Vegas to a sobered-up millionaire who's been indicted five times. For further reading: Gambler: Secrets from a Life at Risk by Billy Walters. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information....

Dec 10, 202437 minTranscript available on Metacast

Episode 7: Little Big Short

As a resident of California, Michael Lewis cannot place bets on any of the online sports books at the center of this season. They’re not allowed to operate in the state. But why? We hear from pastors, Native Americans and short-sellers about why a handful of states are still holding out, and why those efforts are most likely doomed. For further reading: Steve Ruddock’s gaming newsletter Straight to the Point Inside the $400 million fight to control California sports betting by Gus Garcia-Roberts...

Dec 03, 202443 minEp 7Transcript available on Metacast

Get Happier, Help Others: Some Good Ideas About Giving

It's the season of giving: colorful paper and shiny bows, sure, and charitable giving, too. In this special episode, Jacob Goldstein, the host of What's Your Problem , gets smart about donating. Did you know that spending money on others makes you happier than spending money on yourself? Or that altruistic nerds have discovered four of the most impactful charities in the world (per dollar spent)? Have you ever wondered how poker players think about giving? Dr. Laurie Santos from The Happiness La...

Dec 02, 202451 minEp 23Transcript available on Metacast

Episode 6: VIP

What does it mean to be a “very important person” in the world of online sports betting? Not necessarily what you think. We hear from recovering gambling addicts and state regulators frustrated with some of the perverse incentives to keep people on a losing streak. Meanwhile, our show’s own producers hope for a VIP night at the concert of the year. For further reading: Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Huge Mistake by Charles Fain Lehman . See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information....

Nov 26, 202436 minEp 6Transcript available on Metacast

Episode 5: The Mule

The role has many names: “Runner,” “mover,” “betting partner,” and “mule.” As skilled sports gamblers find themselves limited on apps, they turn to these affiliates to place their bets in return for a piece of the proceeds. Against the Rules decides to explore this murky world by signing up for mule-dom with one of the world’s most skilled sports bettors. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Nov 19, 202432 minEp 5Transcript available on Metacast

An Interview with Ted Olson

Constitutional lawyer and former US Solicitor Ted Olson recently died at the age of 84. Olson represented the state of New Jersey in its efforts to overturn a federal ban on sports gambling. Those efforts succeeded, as we hear in our episode "Welcome to the Garden State." But Olson and Michael Lewis talked about many other aspects of his vivid legal career. We're offering their full conversation today. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information....

Nov 15, 202434 minTranscript available on Metacast

Episode 4: A Hard Way to Make an Easy Living

Michael Lewis heads to Las Vegas to explore the way sports betting used to work, up until the day it was rapidly legalized by states around the country. We meet the betting sharps who figured out what others couldn’t and set the odds for other bookies. That is, up until everyone seemed to have a casino on their smartphone. But the new online casino differs from the old ones in an important way: It doesn’t take all bets. For further reading: Edward Thorp’s Beat the Dealer “Cigars, Booze, Money: H...

Nov 12, 202437 minEp 4Transcript available on Metacast

Nate Silver on the Risky Business of Sports Betting

As the US election nears, Michael Lewis sits down with Nate Silver, co-host of the Pushkin podcast Risky Business (along with the writer, psychologist and professional poker player Maria Konnikova). They talk about why people bet on elections, the problem with sports gamblers in the United States, and Silver’s new book, On the Edge: The Art of Risking Everything . See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information....

Oct 29, 202438 minTranscript available on Metacast

Marci Cottingham on the Religious Passion of Steeler Nation

Is there a difference between fandom and religion? In Pittsburgh, it can be hard to tell. Fans of the city’s football team, the Pittsburgh Steelers, seem to have a cradle-to-grave devotion, complete with a golden relic, the “terrible towel.” Michael Lewis talks with sociologist Marci Cottingham, a native of Steeler Nation, about her work studying the religious overtones of fandom, and why the positive experiences of sports fans should get more scholarly attention. For further reading: Marci Cott...

Oct 22, 202424 minTranscript available on Metacast

Alison LaCroix on How History Rhymes at the Supreme Court

It may seem like sports gambling got legalized overnight in the US. But it was in fact a winding road to get there. Michael Lewis speaks with legal historian and University of Chicago professor Alison L. LaCroix about all the factors that led to the Supreme Court overturning, in 2018, a federal law called the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act. And they explore why, in some eras of US history, the Court tends to lean towards “states rights” arguments. For further reading: Alison LaCr...

Oct 15, 202434 minTranscript available on Metacast

Episode 3: Welcome to the Garden State

How did we get from fantasy sports to legalized sports betting? The path is convoluted, but most of it winds through New Jersey. Michael Lewis speaks with former governor Chris Christie, among other Jersey politicians, as well as lobbyists for the gaming industry. Plus we hear from Ted Olson, the lawyer who kept bringing the Garden State’s constitutional challenge until it finally reached the Supreme Court — and hit a jackpot. For further reading: Albert Chen’s Billion Dollar Fantasy Murphy v. N...

Oct 08, 202445 minEp 3Transcript available on Metacast

Episode 2: Values of the Game

Bill Bradley was already famous in college as the epitome of certain American virtues: integrity, honesty, and athleticism. As an NBA star, he took those virtues to the big leagues. As a US Senator, he had a chance to codify some of them into law and prevent the rise of sports betting. But at the same time, others in Bradley's state were making huge money on this illicit form of gambling. For further reading: John McPhee’s A Sense of Where You Are American Bettors Voice , non-profit advocacy for...

Oct 01, 202434 minEp 2Transcript available on Metacast

Episode 1: What’s Wrong with Eric?

Sports fans experience incredible highs and lows, and spend loads of money on a product over which they have no control. But for a long time, no one bothered to study the minds or impulses of fans. Michael Lewis finds out how that's changing as writers and academics learn more about the powerful psychology of fandom. Just in time for technology to exploit fandom more than ever. For further reading: Eric Simons’ book The Secret Lives of Sports Fans Research by Murray State University psychology p...

Sep 24, 202429 minEp 1Transcript available on Metacast

Against the Rules: Fans

Against the Rules is going to Vegas (by way of New Jersey!). Host Michael Lewis bets high and low to find out how Americans, and their state governments, got addicted to a new form of legalized gambling. This season, we’ll meet bookies, lobbyists, lawyers and professional sharps. All in their own ways trying to figure out why fans might hitch their life savings to their favorite team’s performance. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information....

Sep 05, 20243 minTranscript available on Metacast

Judging Sam: The Sentencing

Sam Bankman-Fried was sentenced to 25 years in prison after being convicted of fraud and conspiracy. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott were there in court. They talk about what happened with Judging Sam’s legal expert, Rebecca Mermelstein, a former federal prosecutor and partner at O'Melveny and Myers. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Mar 29, 202442 minEp 24Transcript available on Metacast

Judging Sam: Judging the FTX Bankruptcy

While Sam Bankman-Fried has been on trial, the cryptocurrency exchange he founded, FTX, has been going through bankruptcy proceedings. Jonathan Lipson, a professor at Temple Law School, tells Michael Lewis that he believes the proceedings have highlighted problems with the US bankruptcy system. Jonathan Lipson’s research paper “FTX’d: Conflicting Public and Private Interests in Chapter 11” is forthcoming in the Stanford Law Review. You can read a draft here . You can listen to our previous inter...

Mar 27, 202443 minEp 23Transcript available on Metacast

Judging Sam is Coming Back

This fall we covered the trial of Sam Bankman-Fried, the founder of the failed cryptocurrency exchange FTX. He was found guilty of fraud and conspiracy and could face decades in prison. Now, we are covering his sentencing. Check here for those episodes starting the week of March 25th. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Mar 22, 202442 secEp 22Transcript available on Metacast

Michael Lewis on Freakonomics Radio

Enjoy this episode of Freakonomics Radio , where Michael Lewis sat down with Stephen Dubner to discuss his book “Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon.” Description from the original episode: Lewis got incredible access to Sam Bankman-Fried, the billionaire behind the spectacular FTX fraud. His book is a bestseller, but some critics say he went too easy on S.B.F. Lewis tells us why the critics are wrong — and what it’s like to watch your book get turned into a courtroom drama. See om...

Feb 19, 20241 hr 1 minTranscript available on Metacast

The Rise and Fall of Crypto Billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried from Talk Easy

Enjoy this episode from another Pushkin Industries podcast, Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso . Upon taking a walk with crypto billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried, writer Michael Lewis had a sense that there might be a story here. In the intervening two years, that story has taken a series of twists and turns, resulting in Lewis’ new book Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon . At the top, we walk through Bankman-Fried’s Manhattan trial, the subject at the center of this winding story, and why Le...

Dec 12, 20231 hr 5 minTranscript available on Metacast

Judging Sam: Millennial Frauds

Lidia Jean Kott talks to journalist Elizabeth Lopatto about what it was like to cover the trial, the similarities it shared with Elizabeth Holmes’ trial, and what this all says about millennials, fraud, and the future of the tech industry. This conversation was recorded on November 13. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against ...

Nov 17, 202331 minEp 21Transcript available on Metacast

Judging Sam: The Aftermath

It's all over. Sam Bankman-Fried was found guilty on all seven counts. But what now? Michael Lewis, Lidia Jean Kott, and Judging Sam’s legal expert, O’Melveny defense attorney Rebecca Mermelstein, reflect on the outcome and look ahead to sentencing, SBF's other legal troubles, and the fate of the cooperating witnesses. This conversation was recorded on November 7. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to...

Nov 09, 202334 minEp 20Transcript available on Metacast

Judging Sam: Guilty on all counts

The jury, after about 4 and a half hours of deliberation, has delivered its verdict – guilty on all seven counts. Lidia Jean Kott was in the courtroom when it happened. Her conversation with financial reporter Jacob Goldstein was recorded on November 2. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podc...

Nov 03, 20239 minEp 19Transcript available on Metacast