¶ Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum.
One of my best childhood friends was Tim, and his backyard backed up to my backyard, so all we had to do to get together was climb over the fence. Tim was always planning some types of adventure for us, making rafts like huck fins so we could try to cross Massingale lake, building ramps to jump our bikes, starting fires with magnifying glasses. Once he even showed me just how far we could be away from home by cutting through the woods, crossing the creek, and coming out on
the other side. We were literally on the other side of town. Tim was always ready to jump off something, build something, or take off on one of our escapades. I think about my time with him when I think about Delphi. In this case, two young kids heading out
¶ Sheryl gives a timeline of events in the case of Liberty German and Abigail Williams
on an adventure, and it occurs to me what could have been what should have been. Monday February thirteenth, twenty seventeen, Liberty Germans and Abigail Williams went missing. They went missing in Delphi, Indiana, off the high Bridge. Law enforcement and family searched through the ninth February fourteenth. The next day, law enforcement and volunteers continued their search, and during that search their bodies were found. February fifteenth, law enforcement reveals
that Libby's phone contained images of the suspected killer. The girls were found half a mile from the bridge on the property of a man by the name of Ronald Logan. Twenty second, twenty seventeen, law enforcement release the infamous audio that we've all heard, where we believe the killer says down the Hill. July seventeenth, twenty seventeen, law enforcement releases
the first sketch of the suspect. April twenty second, twenty nineteen, the Indiana State Police release a second sketch, the second Sketches of a younger man. October twenty sixth, twenty twenty two, law enforcement arrest fifty year old Richard Allen of Delphi for these murders. We have somebody with us today that's going to help fill in some of the gaps and paint a better picture of what occurred there and where we are now, y'all. We got Barbara McDonald with us
¶ Sheryl introduces guest, Barbara MacDonald to the listeners
for over seven years. She was a senior writer at HLN.
¶ Check out Down the Hill Podcast
She is the co host, writer and producer, and I want you all to get that a co host, a writer, and producer of the podcast Down the Hill and I can tell you if I'm doing a podcast how she does all that, I don't know. The most important thing to me when I think of Barbara is the fact that she spent six weeks in Delphi, own her own
time and own her own dime. Now she may not tell you that, but I'm going to tell you that because she took her own time and her own money, not to go to Greece, not to go to Paris, not to go to some all inclusive place for you can stay naked for a week. She went to Delphi, Indiana because this case meant that much to her that these two young girls thirteen and fourteen were murdered in a place that arguably most of us had never heard of.
But that's where she went. She used her intellect, her journalistic skills, and her vast network to investigate, advocate, and assist on this case. Now she has also graciously helped me on numerous cases again in her spare time. Like she's got any but she is a solid part of my Zone seven. I am so happy to welcome Barbara McDonald.
What a nice introduction. Thank you so much. I'm so thrilled to be here today talking to you. About a case that I know means so much to both of us. It's really gotten under our skin. The family members have become part of our heart. You know, hopefully we are about to see justice for Abby and Libby.
It's time.
It is absolutely time. And you're right. I mean, I don't think you can spend two minutes with Kelsey German that you just don't fall in love with her.
There's so many wonderful members of both families. And you know what I go back to all the time is these were two girls who are absolutely loved and cared for by their family, and were important members of their families and had bright futures ahead of them, and we're going to grow up and do wonderful things. They both
had goals, they both had dreams. They wanted to make a difference in the world, and they probably would have, and unfortunately today we're talking about, you know, the worst thing that happened to these families.
You know, and Kelsey had mentioned to me that Libby liked law enforcement and detective work and had sort of the little fascination with it. And it strikes me that here own arguably one of the most highlighted cold cases that we've had in the last five years, that Libby is the one that gave us the best piece of evidence right out of the gate. She did that.
You know, I often wonder if she knew just how significant that action was. You know, it's hard to go into those moments and think about exactly what they were thinking and processing as the events were unfolding. But the bravery that she showed to take that phone and try to get something that she could leave to say this is what happened just before the end. And I certainly hope that as this prosecution moves forward that they have all the pieces that they need that they're able to
make the case they want to make. They have charged this man, Richard Allen, with a very very serious crime, the broad daylight murder of two little girls. As his case makes its way through the justice system, there's pieces that are coming out through documents released by the court. But you know, we should all want this man to get a fair trial, because if he gets a fair trial, Abby and Libby get a fair trial, and that's what we want. We want justice for these two precious girls.
I have never heard it put that way, Barbara, but I'm going to start using that if he gets a fair trial, they get a fair trial.
¶ The emphasis on a fair trial for Richard Allen underscores the importance of due process
Yeah, and ultimately that you know, there's so many people who watch this case, and I've really watched recently, especially with the release of the latest round of documents of one hundred and eighteen documents that were released by the court publicly. There's information in there that some people are grabbing onto, going, aha, this is the piece of evidence that proves that he did this.
We're not there yet.
He has been charged, and we should all want to see this trial play out and see the evidence presented in court by the people who collected it, by the people who tested it, by the experts who analyze the results,
by the witnesses. Hear what the prosecution is saying about all of that, as well as here what the defense says about it, and the holes that they try to poke in all of the evidence and facts that the prosecution is going to present, and then come to a decision about is this the man and has the state proven its case. I don't want to pass judgment at this point on whether Richard Allen is guilty or not of this crime, but I want to see him get that fair trial. I want to see the evidence presented.
I want to see it picked apart. I want to hear what various experts say about the validity of this element or that element, or this test or that test. I want to hear what the witnesses have to say, because in the documents that have been released, you know, some of their statements are contradictory. They don't really match
¶ Barbara points out inconsistencies in the case, building anticipation for the 2024 trial
up exactly some of them. There's some similarities there, but some of them disagree on things like his hair color and his height and all of that matters. So I'm really looking forward to that day in court. The trial is scheduled for January of twenty twenty four. Hard to say if it's going to actually happen then, as you know, a lot of things can happen, especially in a high
profile case. So you know, I want to reserve judgment, and I would hope that more people would be willing to do that as well.
No, I think that's valid, And if you want to look at things that are contradictory, you don't have to look any further than the two composites that they put out. Indeed, So you know, I think it's valid what you're saying. And again I tell people all the time it's so nice to have people that kind of keep you grounded, remind you this is how the system works, how it should work, how we should all want it to work. One of my mantras is, you cannot take away walk
in that scene. You cannot. I don't think over emphasize the importance of going to that scene. And here's what I tell people all the time. If I'm at a and there's some woods, it is as important to me where the body is as it is what's on the other side of those woods. Because on the other side of those woods, if you've got a cemetery, so to speak, or a liquor store or an apartment complex, that matters to me. Because this body disposal site was selected, it
was selected before the murder. Why did the killer pick it? That's going to tell you about him. So you got
¶ Question: Barbara, you got to spend six weeks, boots on the ground. Could you tell us about that?
to spend six weeks boots on the ground tell us about that.
You know.
A highlight of my coverage of this case, for sure, was to be able to really blend in as much as I could to the Delphi community. You know, it's a charming, quaint little town. Delphi is small, only about three thousand people. It's the county seat of Carroll County, and Carroll County only has about twenty or twenty two thousand people, so we're.
Talking about very rural area.
It's about an hour and a half northwest of Indianapolis, near Lafayette, which is where home of Purdue University. So much larger population there, but still not a huge, huge area. A lot of farmland, a lot of agriculture, a lot of people living very rural lives. And this is a small community, you know, it's not the kind of community that has a target, you know, a movie theater or
a shopping mall or anything like that. And so for two little girls to decide on a day off from school to go walk the trails, that's a pretty common activity there. And I have walked those trails so many times in all kinds of different weather from probably I think you have done this as well, Cheryl, from like fifteen degree weather with snow on the ground to ninety five degree weather in the middle of summer. And what I have seen is people use the trails. This is
an area where people go and walk. You know, this isn't a community that necessarily has sidewalks and neighborhoods and places that people can walk throughout the regular part of the community. Downtown they have that, but where most people live that doesn't exist. So I can totally see a world where you know, you're out running errands, you want to go for a walk, let's stop by the trails. That's what they're there for. And it's a really beautiful
area of land. The Deer Creek runs through there, and parts of it are just absolutely beautiful, and you know,
¶ Barbara gives a description of the trail area and paints a vivid picture of the community's loss
the deer and the wild animals and the various birds and the trees. The area is very sloping, thus the down the hill, so that gives you a lot of different types of land and plants, and it's just really a gem of the community. And every time I've been out there, I've seen people using the trails for recreation. It is not an uncommon thing. Kids go out there to go for a walk, Adults go out there to
go for a walk. I've talked to people who have ridden ATVs across the Moon on High Bridge when it was in its you know, disrepair before they just updated it and added a walking platform onto the bridge to make it safer for people who do go out there
to enjoy it. But it's a really wonderful place, and I remember talking with Becky Patty early on and she was like, you know, when the girls wanted to go out there that day, they had the day off from school, and I thought, well, heck, that's better than them sitting in front of the TV all day.
And that was the attitude, you know.
And you were talking at the top of the show about your friend Tim and the adventures you would go on in your neighborhood. I grew up the same way.
You know.
We were the kind of kids that were of that generation where your mom kicked you basically out of the house at nine am and said, don't come back till the lights are on in the neighborhood, and you know, we were on our I going all over the place. I mean, when I think back to how many miles away from home I would routinely travel as a seven, eight nine year old, it's pretty surprising compared to today's
standards of how parents parent their children. So I relate a lot to Abby and Libby going out there on the bridge wanting to take pictures of the bridge. When I was thirteen, I was a shutter bug. I had my camera, I took it everywhere.
I did the same kind of stuff.
And this was two girls going out in broad daylight in the middle of the afternoon. My mom always said, go with somebody. You know, there's safety in numbers. As long as you're not alone, you'll be okay.
And as you say, broad daylight with other people around. This was not some deserted deep in the wood spot where they were going. They were going where there were tons of people hiking and biking and picnicing and everything else.
Yeah, people go there and fish and you know, just go out and enjoy the fresh air and the scenery. And you're right, it's not in a secluded area by any means. There are homes, not a lot of homes, but there are homes near the area within you know, one or two miles. Downtown Delphi is only about a mile or two away, so it's not far at all. And you know, it's just really unfortunate what happened out
¶ Reflection on the global impact of the crime, highlighting the Snapchat evidence calling this case "the Snapchat killing"
there that day and how it has really changed this entire community. It blew up, as you know, into such a media firestorm. When it first happened. People were calling it the Snapchat killing because of the video that Liddy had got on her phone.
It made the news.
All over the world. You know, I remember talking with law enforcement officers who were fielding calls from Japan and Finland, and I think even a lot Via. Somebody in Latvia called the Indiana State Police wanting information on the case. So it definitely touched a nerve with true crime audiences all over the world. And here we are now with somebody in custody facing trial, and for a long time it didn't really look like we were going to get there, but here we are.
Well, you know, when I first got involved, and they were saying, you know, it could be a transient person, it could be a truck driver. So when I first went there, I told Kelsey and them, don't tell me anything. Don't tell me where the bridge is. Let me see if I can find it. Well, there's not like a ton of signage like telling you, hey, this is one of our cool places to go hang out. And then once I kind of got near, there's an overpath that
has the bridge's name on it. And so when you turn and go under that underpath, you're still like, where the heck is this bridge? Right? So I was, and I finally gave up and I said, Okay, you're going to have to tell me and Kelthy said, well, here's where you park, Barbara. I would have never seen that turn off. It was like gravel, but it was kind of, you know, in the midst of some growth and other
things on the side of the road. So then when I finally pulled up there, I could see, yes, there's a place to park, and there's this beautiful little blue bridge or walk bridge. But then you still have a good bit to go on this trail and you have
to go for a pretty good distance before all of a sudden you just turn and there's this bridge. It's almost like wow, and it's bigger and taller and longer than you think in your head before you get there. So the first thing that I knew is there ain't no way somebody just came upon this bridge that was traveling through here.
Not happening absolutely, And you know what we had the first we had the same experience as you. The first time that we went to Delphi. I was with Susan Hendrix from HLA and two shorhotographers and we did the same thing with Kelsey. We said, don't tell us where it is, We're going to try to find it. And four of us with four smartphones could not find this bridge, could not figure out how to get to where we wanted to go, and I finally had to call Kelsey and have her direct us there.
And I had the.
Same thought, there was no way this was somebody driving through and going hmmm, maybe I'll just stop there. This had to have been somebody who knew this was here. I've even talked to people who've lived in Delphi for many, many years and didn't know these trails were there until this happened.
I remember telling Doug Carter, he's right there, He's within five miles of that bridge. He has to live there. So again, if you're a cold case investigator, you know that nine times out of ten, his name's already in the case file. So you've got to go back, look at every name and make sure you can throw that person out. So our advice immediately got to have fresh
eyes on this thing. You got to start over. And I know, me and a group of detectives and csis and psychopathologists, we all volunteered to do that for them, but it was that imperative I will come there and do it, because that's how confident I am. He's right there.
And you know, when you get to know the area and you walk around it. Where the girls were found
¶ Discussion of the secluded area where the girls were found
compared to where they were approached on the bridge, seems to me to have been a deliberate effort on the part of the killer to get somewhere more secluded. I think where they were found is probably one of the most secluded areas that you could go to in that general area. Agreed, where you're going to be out of sight, perhaps out of sound range from anybody else who might be using the trails or the park.
One hundred percent agree. And there's even enough of a ravine that if you're laying there or prepping leaving items, people looking up can't see it. So there's no doubt in my mind that location was picked before.
Yeah.
The other thing that's interesting, and I don't hear a lot of people talk about this, but I think that is an area that also provides if you're familiar with the area, I think that area provides multiple ways to get out. So if you are at this scene and you're doing something you shouldn't be doing and somebody begins to come near you, you would have plenty of notice that they're approaching you before they would know you were there, and you would have multiple ways to get out of.
There, correct. And the first thing that kind of resonated with me is they were slowly giving us information. Is the one car that was parked way off? And then you look at the video and you know, I tried to again gently say to people, this person does not look like he goes to the gym every day. And the reason that is relevant is because who is going to park further away to then start hiking? And again,
I want to be clear, I ain't being ugly. I didn't go to the gym today either, and that's why I'm telling you I'm not going to park a mile away before I start ach Liizon.
Especially when there are other places to park closer.
Of course, it makes no sense unless you don't want your car to be seen by the other people that are in that area.
Yes, but do you really do you think it's plausible that I mean, we have a witness according to these documents that were released that says that she was driving on that road north of the Cemetery Harry, just north of the bridge at just before four pm and she saw a man in jeans and a jean jacket who was muddy and bloody walking towards where that car would have been parked.
I think you can't ignore it. And I think if you go from the cemetery to the crime scene to the car as the crow flies, it possibly makes some sense. To me. There is not one female that is going to listen to this episode that has not had something happened to her with an unknown male. Either she was approached weird, he said something weird, he brushed up against her where you know, he touched her butt.
You just gave her a weird vibe, gave.
Her a weird vibe. All of us have had that happen, and sometimes even more overtly something has occurred. How many full videotape Almost none. So here's what this meant to me. You've got a fourteen year old girl that videotaped this man. I believe something overtly happened before. I believe he passed them, said something, showed them something, did something. And then when he turned around is when she knew this is not
good and started to video him. If you look at the photograph they released early on, he's to the right of that bridge. He's way more to the right. When I was going to walk on that bridge, baby, let me tell you something. Dead center with my arms out right, I am not trying to fall. I'm not trying to trip. He's so far over it looks to me like his feet and his hips are turned coming back in. I
believe he's turning around, That's what I think. And he's got his hands in his And that's another thing that I expressed to Doug Carter. There's no way he's not going to have his arms out, just a natural way to protect yourself walking on these pielines that have, as you know, large gaps in some places where it looks rotten, and I just don't see somebody traversing that way to the side of it and their hands in their pockets.
I agree that he was probably turning around.
I absolutely agree that something happened before the camera came on. There was a reason why she was concerned already, and then she started recording, and we don't know.
What that is.
So I know you have put so much time and effort into this case. So anytime something is released, some bit of information or a fact or a piece of evidence, I know you just start reeling. But when you found
¶ Question: When you found out that on the video when one of the girls mentioned the word gun, what was your reaction?
out that owned the video, when one of the girls mentioned the word gone. What was your reaction.
My reaction might be different than a lot of people's. I am not entirely sure that the jury is going to hear that as clearly as that was stated in the probable Cause. I think that there could be some debate about whether or not that word is used. The
audio on that video is not clear. Police have mentioned several times that they had to clean up just what they presented to us publicly, which was down the hill, and then they amended it to guys down the Hill, And my understanding is that there was even some debate about whether those words are correct, and there are some people who listen to it and hear other things, but I think that is more clear than what is said by.
One of the girls.
A lot of people who have speculated for a long time me included that perhaps he did have a gun and showed that to them on the bridge to help get that early control of these two girls physically, and
¶ Speculation about the unspent ejected shell casing found at the crime scene raises questions
that's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities. One of the things I heard recently was that somebody was saying that on the video you can hear the gun cocking, and you know, there was the unspent ejected shellcasing that was found at the crime scene between the bodies. Well, the video was taken on the bridge, So if he's cocking the gun on the bridge, I don't know that that explains the shellcasing found a quarter of a mile away between the bodies.
Yeah, that's a brilliant.
Point, depending on exactly where that action happened on the bridge or whether he had just stepped off of it. It could have been in the gravel at the end of the bridge. But if he was still on the bridge, there's a huge possibility that round would have ended up in the water.
It certainly wouldn't have wound up between the two of them a half a mile away exactly.
So did he cock the gun again later and that is what led to the unspent shell casing being found at the scene.
You know, we don't know.
We also don't know yet if there is any other evidence tying that bullet or gun to anything else. You know, was his fingerprint on that gun, I mean on that bullet. Did they find a partial print on it? Does that match in any way to him? Was there DNA on it? I have a lot of questions about that, And since you know, the latest document dump says basically, the documents contain information that there was a edged weapon used in
these murders. They were not killed by a gunshot. So I think that further waters it down a little bit.
For me.
I'm very curious in hearing.
Much more about that shell casing and what all the various experts have to say about it, what test was used, how reliable that test is.
I want to see all of that.
Yeah, I would love to believe that they got that thing to Francine Bardol and that they do have his DNA off of it, but I haven't seen anything that would suggest that.
Right, And you know, we don't know all the information the prosecution has, right they put up these documents that the court did, the judge approved that, but that's still not the complete case. So oh yeah, there could be a lot more testing, a lot more evidence. There could be a lot more evidence pointing directly at Richard Allen, but we don't know that yet.
But we do know that there's specific cell phone information, firearm information, electronics, clothing.
He placed himself at.
The scene, girl, you just beat me to it.
He volunteered that information.
Yes, you know what he says to police about his whereabouts while he was out there seems to match what the witnesses are reporting they saw, So yeah, there is some potential corroboration there.
And then we're going to have you know, his computer, things he researched, things he looked at. We have already had, you know, statements from the family saying that when they were in CVS, he would say things to them, you know that maybe in hindsight or a little creepy, whereas when they were first said to him, it didn't really mean that much. So you know, who knows. But I think there is so much more to weed through, you know.
That's the other reason why I want Richard Allen to have a fair trial, because he's found have been through so much already and just waiting six plus years for an arrest that was tortuous for them, and now to begin this judicial process you know that could play out for years when you're talking about convictions and appeals and you know, delays, and this could be a process that
takes another couple of years. And I want them to be able to at least know who did this, potentially why it happened, so that they can move on with their grieving, not that that brings closure, not that that brings.
The end of anything.
But as I think Mike Patty says, a lot, you know, it would end a chapter right and allow them to open up a new chapter that perhaps could have more healing in it.
Well, I think for the whole community, having the who takes away a lot of fear, takes away a lot of this guy still walking around among us, you know. But I tell you one thing that I am hopeful with these alleged five confessions. I hope he said something that only the killer would know.
Absolutely. That's the other thing. You know.
There's a lot of people who are saying, oh, he confessed, so it's a done deal. Well, not necessarily. We need to hear what he said and whether or not he offered any information that only the killer would know.
Like if he said that, yeah, I took her yellow underwear. Did he give a color that we didn't know? Did he say you know exactly how he murdered them. I've always thought it was with a straight edge weapon. I thought it was most likely their throats. I don't know that. Did he say it because the killer would know?
And did he offer anything like we haven't heard anything about who might have been attacked first, or how many wounds might have been on each victim.
Did he give information about.
That exactly how we staged them?
Yeah, And you know, the defense is arguing that, well, you know, these are incoherent statements, ramblings of a man who's degrading mentally. So I'd like to hear the call where he allegedly confesses five times to his wife and what was the context of that. Was he like, hey, I got to tell you, like I did this, Like I'm not going to get out of this trouble.
I did this? Or was it just you know, fine, I did it. I did it. I did it.
I mean, there's a lot of variation, and I want to hear what he said and what she said, and what the conversation was leading up to it.
I want to know all of that.
The ex prosecutor mentioned to me that there were three different signatures in his opinion, we have all understood and I readily accept that there was staging at that scene. What is it did he say it? Would he give any information that would make us go, oh, I get it. It has to be him, because this was never released any last.
Thoughts, you know, Mac, I think, at the end of the day, this is a case about Abby and Libby, and a lot of the headlines right now are focused on Richard Allen, as they need to be, because there's
¶ Question: Any last thoughts, Barbara?
a lot of news happening with the case. But this crime was about two little girls thirteen and fourteen years old. It would be twenty now. Libby would be approaching her twenty first birthday later this year, and just think of all that They missed prom driver's license, boyfriends, college. You know, Libby missed seeing her sister, her best friend, her big sister, get me married. She's missing her first niece, Kelsey is having a baby, and there's just so much loss from just
this horrendous attack. And whoever did this should absolutely be caught and they should be punished. But just remember Abby and Libby. They deserved a lot more than they got, and I really wish we could have seen what they would have done with their lives.
I could not add to that if I wanted to your podcast Down the Hill. I listened to the entire thing.
¶ A personal anecdote about a team member illustrates the close-knit nature of podcasters
It was one of the most comprehensive, all inclusive, three sixty view that I've ever listened to.
Oh thank you. Can I give a quick shout out to the team that worked with me on that, Dan and Drew. I mean, it was an amazing experience on my part, absolutely a professional highlight to have been teamed with such amazing professionals and to be able to create that work. And I'll forever be proud of it.
Well, not only can he give a shout out, I'm going to second it. And I'll tell you in a small world, little action. You and I are talking in Delphi the morning of the press conference beforehand, and then all of a sudden, behind me, I hear Cheryl like question mark, and I turn and I turn around and it's Drew. And here's the great thing just for people
to know. When I used to do the Nancy Gray Show and we would have to go to see an n Drew would sometimes babysit Hunting Caroline for the hour that I was on air.
He's such a great guy.
Oh, he's tremendous, and Hunting Caroline used to have such a great time of him. He would entertain them and that's not easy to do to they were little at time. You're talking about, you know, fifteen twenty years ago, And I mean he taught in that paper football game he would play that sounds like Drew, oh my gosh. And they would always have some great story to tell, some game he taught them. So, yes, you can brag on them,
but that I want people to understand again. You know, there's all these talents that people have that they brought to this thing. It's not just hey, I'm going to do a podcast. You brought everything you had to it, even your travels. So did Drew.
Yeah.
Absolutely, And Drew and Dan and I we still talk about the case all the time. We share things with each other all the time. You know, they're my sounding board and.
It's it's just.
This case either gets under your skin or it doesn't. And it absolutely got under theirs. So they joined me in my obsession, and you know, for probably about nine months we worked exclusively on that.
Well, Barbara, I can't thank you enough for being here and sharing your genius and your expertise. And I'm just going to give you the final word.
Thank you so much for this chance to talk about them and this case. Like everyone else, I'll be watching to see how this plays out in court.
Now all I'll go end Zone seven the way that
¶ "From now on, it is our task to suspect each and every one among us." -A.C
I always do with a quote. From now on, it is our task to suspect each and everyone among us. That's from Agatha Christie's book. And then there were none. I'm a Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.