¶ Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum. Sheryl shares a story from a school teacher following the introduction of the team of experts in this episode
I loved Miss Mitchell, my sixth grade teacher, for many reasons, but one thing she used to always do for us made me feel so much more confident on my projects. About a half hour before the bell would ring and our projects were due, she would say, now, y'all, get you a buddy and let that buddy review your work and they can make two free changes or corrections. So if you mispelled a word, or didn't have a common in the right place, or you needed to fix that
dangling modifier, now is your time. And then she would give you the opportunity to do that with a friend. And I can hear her right now, she would say, class, it's time to find the buddy and get a new viewpoint on your project. A different outlook's important. Let your friends help you. They have good judgment. This is how
I feel about tonight's panel. They have great viewpoints, They are solid in their understanding of how these cases work, how to interpret what's happening, and they have outstanding judgment. I have asked them to help me with this project to understand what is going on with the Long Island serial killer. Now, just to give you all a quick overview, the first victim Gilbert, twenty four, was last seen May one,
¶ Sheryl gives an overview of the Long Island serial killer case, revealing the chilling details and the killer's suspected patterns
twenty ten. She wanted to be an actress. At the time of her disappearance, she was working as a sex worker. Police started to search for her along Ocean Parkway. Shockingly, four more bodies were discovered over a three day period of time. All of the remains were in about a half a mile roughly five hundred feet apart. Now experts recognize this as possibly a dumping ground for a serial killer. There was virtually no doubt in my mind that's what
it was. Police began to link some of the other victims their profession, the area they were taken from, in the area they were disposed in. Another victim, Waterman, twenty two years old, was from Maine, but she had been working as an escort off Craigslist. Three other victims Barns, twenty five year old from Norwich, Connecticut, another victim twenty four from the Bronx, another victim twenty seven from Long Island. They were all working as sex workers. April fourth, twenty eleven.
By now, law enforcement has recovered eight women and one man who was wearing women's clothing. December thirteenth, law enforcement announced Gilbert's remains have been identified. January sixteenth, twenty twenty, police released the first major clue to the public. Now I'm gonna tell you all right now, I thought this piece of evidence was going to break this thing wide open.
It was a leather belt, but it almost looked like an old piece of clothing, something that a grandfather would have had, and it had letters on it, and nobody knew whether the letters were WH or HM. But I thought, there's got to be DNA on it. There might be some blood on it, but surely somebody's gonna recognize that
in a family, it looked like an heirloom. July thirteenth, twenty twenty three, unarrest was finally made, and tonight we have one of the best panels to come together and look at this thing from a three sixty one vortex. Like I've talked about in the past, every different possible avenue that I can think of right now is coming to the table. I'm lucky enough to not just admire these folks and get to work with these folks, but they are genuinely my friends and solidly in my Zone seven.
I'm gonna start with retired NYPD Sergeant Joseph Jackloone. He was in the Bronx as the head of their cold case squad. He was part of the cold case task Force in the homicide Unit. He taught at the Homicide School for NYPD. He is, without a doubt, somebody that can take a ton of information and funnel it down in the simplest form. He is a professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, and he has a teacher's heart. You can hear it when he talks and
explains these cases. Has just kind of, I think, blown my mind on a couple of levels. But you and I know, and we've talked before, that at a rest doesn't mean the investigation is over. So can you talk
¶ Question: Can you talk a little bit about what law enforcement is doing after they have a person in custody?
a little bit about what law enforcement is doing after they have this person in custody.
So when you're building a case, whether it's an ordinary case or a cold case like this with lots of moving parts and victims, you always have to present the case as if this is going to trial, because in
this situation, it will. Even when you have a case that is ten years old and you don't think you're ever going to solve it, you're always preparing for that day and you got your eyes and cross your t's and you have to make sure you have all your inculpatory evidence and your exculpatory right things that include and exclude suspects, because the defense attorney is going to be going after certain things and saying it's not my guy, which is the defense attorney is already doing right. They
got the wrong guy at somebody else. So that's why it's very important to make sure you the case buttoned up.
Now we see law enforcement again. They're going to storage rooms, they're looking at his vehicles, they're digging in the backyard. They've already identified these burner phones and computer searches and the guns. As you're kind of wading through some of this,
¶ Question: What do you think right now is the most intriguing piece of evidence to you?
what do you think right now is the most intriguing piece of evidence to you?
Well, right now, I want to know what they found in the storage facility. Right, So they went to the storage facility and then a few hours later the a medical examiner showed up. So to me, that was a definitely red flag. I mean, you don't call the medical examiner unless you find something that needs to be examined by them. So it was a very interesting aspect of things. And if the anthropologist would have showed up, I probably
would have fallen off my chair. So yeah, the issue that comes down to is, like I've done a number of cold case digs. When I was working doing this stuff. We always had the medical examiner or a medical legal investigator which people refer to as an MLI at the scene while we start. But you know, in New York City there's a lot of different mlis that you can
do it. In Suffer County, it's a much smaller place and they might not have one available, so that could have been a reason why they called them after the fact. But still it is a very intriguing We know from past cases serial killers could hold trophies back. That kind
¶ The role of Medical Legal Investigators (MLIs) in cold case digs is highlighted, with Giacalone noting how serial killers often keep "trophies"
of material would be extremely important to this case specifically. There are a number of other victims that haven't been attributed to him. That doesn't mean that they will be, but you know as well as I do, that they need to make sure that they have the right guy for a lot of different reasons.
You and I were texting each other in the instant message system. I don't even know what it's called, but we were in live time talking to each other when the medical examiner showed up, and I'm going to tell you I about did fall out of my chair because to your point, he ain't called but for one thing, and that's for some type of body.
Part, exactly right. So that was a really foretelling kind of issue for me anyway, And I think, you know, a couple people picked up on it, But as soon as I saw that on the TV, I tweeted it out and the thing went crazy on it because everyone knows pretty much what that means. We have a lot of we have a lot of faith right now going on in this investigation, just from the base of the quality of the investigation on the digital forensics and the
DNA and everything else. So this was an especially unique opportunity to see exactly what's transpiring.
Doctor Jonie Johnson, the forensic psychologist, PI author, crime writer. She's gonna help us maintain this balance that all of these cases have at least two sides. All right, doctor Joni, I'm gonna come to you pretty quick out of the gate, because you got to tell us about this guy. How
¶ Question: How do you function as a professional, raise children, and maintain a marriage? And at the same time, be this predatory killer?
do you function as a professional, raise children, maintain a marriage,
¶ Joni E. Johnston introduces the idea that some individuals can effectively compartmentalize their lives, making their criminal activities harder to detect
and at the same time be this predatory killer.
It is pretty astonishing how much some people can compartmentalize different parts of their lives. And this is clearly if this person is the perpetrator, and there seems to be a tremendous amount of evidence suggesting that's true. He truly was a master at it. I mean, this is somebody, like you said, he's married, he's got children, he has a successful business, and yet there seems to be this secret life that is completely separate from his day to
day operation. You know, I've had several police officers, I'm sure you can relate to this, probably Cheryl, who will talk about being at a homicide scene and then going home and hugging their you know, small children and just having to take off mentally one hat and put another one on and just slip into a different role. This is obviously an extreme version of that.
That's a good point. Do you think we're going to see the serial killer hat trick? You know, when they want to control and they want to dominate, and they want to, you know, just have this whole function where they're manipulating people and dominating their victims and controlling the situation.
Do you think we're going to see aspects of that as they go through some of the things that he has been accused of doing already, and some of the people that are coming forward telling stories about how he approached them.
Yeah, I think that's interesting that so many people are coming forward. We have to take that just a little bit with the grain of salt, because we know that when we know the kind of outcome of what's happened recently, it's easy for people to kind of go back and
remember things. But the thing that stands out the most for me in terms of the evidence so far is just the amount of sadism and cruelty that seem to be in this perpetrator, all the way from the pornography and some of the searches that he was making to just taunting the family of his victims. I mean, that is so scary because that suggests that this really is every person's worst nightmare.
One thing that stuck out to me is when they're taking items out of the home. There was one Playboy magazine and it looks like it's the issue that had the last pictures of Marilyn Monroe, the nude pictures. If that's the case, that magazine is from the eighties, and that's where he would have been a much younger man. And again there's some people that think she was murdered,
you know, perhaps tortured. So if that's something he's reading as a young person, and it's something he has kept in Christine condition, again, this is something that he does full time.
Well, I would be very surprised to learn that he started killing in his forties. I mean, we all know that murder seems to be a young person's gang for the most part, and most serial killers start in their twenties, you know, early to mid twenties, sometimes even their late teens. So I am hoping that I'm wrong and the evidence will not such port that, but I would certainly put a dollar on it that this was not his first radio in terms of two thousand and seven.
Y'all know Lisa Rabbikoff, she's been here before, polygrapher, polygraph examiner, polygraph expert. She's going to figure out whether or not you're line to the best of her ability, Lisa rabbit Cough, if he was willing to talk, what questions would you have for him and in what order?
The first question I'm not going to ask him is why, because that's not the answer that he's going to be
¶ Question: If he was willing to talk, what questions would you have for him, and in what order?
forthcoming with right off the bat. It's definitely going to take a seasoned investigator with an extensive training in interviewing as well as interrogation to go ahead and reach the rapport with him to acquire that information. I think that if more and more evidence ties him to additional victims, that eventually he is going to start singing and he's
going to start give over some details. But right now, just taking a look at his booking photo, we know working in the industry that usually the eyes tell a story behind a lot of different things. His booking photo,
¶ The intriguing world of polygraph tests is unveiled as Lisa Ribacoff shares her approach to interviewing suspects
if you take a look at his mouth, he kind of has some sort of a smart and a smile to it, which definitely is very unsettling given the fact that his first comment in court when his counsel was assigned to him by the Suffolk County eighteen a felony panel was is this on the news? So he's more so looking as I believe in the limelight of what is my reputation? What do people think about me? And he's going to care more about the public perception of
him as an individual. The questions that I would focus on, I would probably start discussing his family. I would start talking about the relationship with his children. The media has outlined that he does have his daughter, Victoria, who was an employee at his firm in the working in Midtown as graduate from NYIT. She does have a background in online and technical I guess photoshop illustrator kind of doing visual effects, which could play into her role at the firm.
But he does have his son, as per the media reports, with special needs, and there isn't much information that's coming out regarding him, so I would definitely want to discuss and play into his fatherly role and get him comfortable talking about the dynamics. I would also not start discussing with him his first marriage, because obviously there is a divorce.
I don't want to go ahead and possibly draw bad blood and get him to shut down and start being accusatory as to maybe infidelity or reasons that he could have been at fault for that termination of marriage. But I would definitely go about discussing his family, his history upbringing, but also not going into questioning whether or not he was ever a victim of any sexual or physical abuse from family members or anyone in his life, because again,
rapport is the biggest thing. When we need to go ahead and have a suspect discuss anything with us.
That's an excellent point, and I think, look at his double life starting with the light that he would not be in any way hesitant to talk about is brilliant.
Yeah, I think from my perspective, Look, so I was part of a detective squad, and of course the cool cause squad, I might have taken an approach where having a female detective do my interview for me and see how that would go in regards to if he wants to try to manipulate her or dominate her and that kind of thing, or really kind of get under his skin that way too. So I think that might be a tactic that I would have used, and we don't know if if they use that.
Yeah, I like that all day. We have a special, special, special guest. We met, we became buddies. She's somebody that I rely on to kind of keep me balanced in what I say, because again, sometimes in my world, I can just see a perpetrator and that's sometimes how I talk about them, that they're guilty before the trial starts. But Carrie Rawson is the daughter of the BTK killer.
I think she's one of the bravest people that I know, because again I'm somewhat guarded when it comes to private information. I'm not one of those people that shares intimate details of things. And it always amazes me when somebody so willingly will just come out and say, this was the darkest moment of my life and I'm going to tell you all about it, and she opens herself up I think in just a tremendous caring way, because she's actually given us information. I think it's a tremendous help.
I also would interject to use the tactic not only
¶ Kerri Rawson's profound insights on the complexities of being related to a notorious criminal. Her experience brings a deeply personal touch to the narrative
of a female, but like you've got to come in from a level of respect, like like you all know what I mean, Like you have to wall off that horror that's going on in your insides. Why you're like you have to respect them and meet them face to face, and you almost have to seem almost well by like what they've done and like you're like, wow, can you tell me more about that? Like why are they wrapped in burlap? And you know how you know you don't make me go to count right away, but like you
show like genuine interests and you can't fake it. But these guys can see like right through to your souls, So you have to be like walled off, prepared, and you.
If you don't know your stuff, they're.
Gonna just call you out and they're gonna be like, Nope, I'm talking to somebody else.
I'm not talking to you.
And Carrie, that's a great point we also have with us. Mike Morford, we call him more. He's a podcast extraordinary, that podcast Criminology. Check it out. It's unbelievable. And tonight he's bringing all of his brilliance right here for us. I want to talk a little bit about how important podcasters have been on this case, the media in general, but podcasters specifically.
Well, I think it's important when you want to get
¶ Mike Morford highlights the influential role of podcasters in shining a light on cold cases and aiding investigations
the word out about, you know, a case, if you're an investigator that's wanting to get this out to more people, so more people talk about it, shared on social media, provide clues, come forward with tips. You know, a podcast is you know, a tremendous way to do that. You know, you can advertise on TV, you can put it on
all the news shows you want. But you know, if you're not tapping into something like podcast that millions of people listen to, you're missing out on a good option for getting more attention for those cases.
And I tell people all the time. Everybody has a gift. Somebody's vocation or advocation could assist in some way that you don't even know as possible. And some of the graphics that I've seen, some of the maps, have blown my mind that Seville, for lack of a better term, have put together on this case.
Yeah, there's no doubt that when you get a collective of people with different skills, different backgrounds that are able to help move case forward, it's a good thing and it lends itself to possibly being solved easier because you're getting that much more attention for it.
Now, Carrie, I want to go back to you for a second, and I know this is not easy. I know that you don't take any joy from this. This is not something you look forward to doing, so right off the bat, I want to tell you I appreciate you being here, and I do think you're one of the bravest people that I know, because you are so willing to share a part of your life that was just horrific, but for the purposes of what we have understood happened on Long Island. Talk to us about that knock at the door.
So it's my hope for a Rexist family that. You know, we were told he was arrested Thursday night. So it is my hope that they went and quietly notified the family and gave them Thursday night and then had them hunkered down away from media by Friday morning. You know, I'm hearing that maybe they weren't quite ready for media to break as early as as it did, so there was a bit of a management scramble, I think on
Friday for Long Island. For in my case, they had been looking for my dad for thirty one years for murders from seventy four to ninety one. Then he was playing games for about a year when he came back so FBI KBI, which everybody was looking for him, and had like this massive DNA swabamon and a bunch of insanity. So they narrowed it down to my dad about a week before they arrested him due to a floppy disk.
Then they got my DNA and so that came back that Thursday night that it was match to my dad, and so the next morning then they had concocted a plan and they arrested him on his way home for lunch and then around the block. Then they went and knocked on my mom's door at the very same time.
Then an FBI agent notified.
Me in Michigan and went to went to Connecticut to notify my brother at the Navy. So they they planned it with the FBI so that nobody could talk to each other. And so when I was I didn't even want to let the FBI agent into my house and then he literally just dropped the bomb on me that Dad was BTK and they didn't let us talk to each other. I didn't even get ahold of family till like later that evening.
They didn't. They they needed to.
Clear us before we could start talking to each other. So they like they were real careful about that. But like when you're talking about potentially what long Island's family is going through, I mean you're just talking about utter freaking hell and shock, like it just lands on you like a bomb. And call it the before and the after, right, And so we have before Dad was arrested and after, and I still do that. I just have to say before or after, and everybody knows what I mean.
Sergeant, I want to go back to you for a second, and I want to ask you, when you're working a task force like this, how difficult, is it to get
¶ Question: When you're working a task force like this how difficult is it to get everybody to stay on the same page and move as one?
everybody to stay on the same page and move as one systematic unit.
Yeah, that's the million dollar question, right, And this is just not you know, one department, right. So you had the state Police, you had the FBI, you have Suffolk County, you have Nassau County. You have probably the Park's rangers on this too, because that's I believe that's where the who's really in control of that landown there. So you have so many different agencies, so many different egos, so
many different things going on. I think it's just a testament to the Police Commission in Suffer County, Rodney Harrison, for putting this team together, inviting the right people, and being able to control all of that fo of information and making sure that nothing slipped through the cracks. As weeks and months and years go by, We're going to hear a lot more as this case goes closer to trial,
¶ Giacalone paints a picture of the investigation's intricacies, from triumphs to stumbling blocks
and we will hear about all those investigative steps and different things, because remember, there are so many missteps that happened prior to this, over the ten or eleven year period before it. It's really I hate to use the word biracle, but it's like pulling the rabbit out of a hat when you know, if you know the case very well, this is like, it's really an amazement that they pulled this off.
I agree. And how Davin wide and twisted? Do you think this thing's fixing again?
Well, I think it's going to get more interesting. Right, So we have the victor Maureen Brainerd Barnes, who was the last part of the GILG four. I believe they were what they said in the press conference, they we're waiting for forensic tests to come back on that because the DNA was kind of messed up from being out in the elements in that area. So I think they're waiting on some of the new technolo Jesus se if they can put her with him too. I mean, and listen,
I've said this long ago. You can look back in the annals of my interviews and I said it was me doing this. I would I would have focused in on the GILG four because we can all agree that they were all killed by the same person. The other the other seven you know, maybe right, but there's going to be cases dating back as far as nineteen ninety six.
So you know, as well as I do, a lot of the forensics wasn't even you know, cops weren't even aware of it back then, So they're going to have some difficulty putting those cases together, unless, of course, he confesses. But New York State doesn't. You know, they have the death penalty, but they'll never use it and they'll never hold that against them. But I think they either would be able to hold that against them to see if you can come forward or maybe go go federal with this.
I mean, they could still end up going federal on it, So it's going to be interesting to see what happens with that.
¶ Delving into the psychological, Sheryl and Joni discuss the delicate task of profiling a criminal while empathizing with the perpetrator's family
Doctor Jony. Sometimes I will have a parallel investigation almost things like your job kind of does the same thing. So on the one hand, you're trying to profile this guy, but on the other hand, you may be putting together a care plan for the perpetrator's family, so it's not just the victim's side of this case, but the other family as well.
That's such a good point, And I know Carrie can speak to this a lot more eloquently and personally than I can, but I definitely that it's just so, so truly, and I'm glad that you brought that up, because you know, these are victims, and I'm not necessarily saying there are the same victims as the victims' families, but they will also be grieving the loss of who they thought this person was if't is in fact the perpetrator, And so
I think it is important. I've seen really horrendous things posted, not on this case per se, but on other you know, on websites and social media about family members. There's always this I think, belief or this assumption that they somehow knew and they're protecting this person, or they should have known or whatever. This need to assign blame, I think
to the whole family, this kind of spillover effect. And you know, obviously there have been cases where there have been families who participated, but I think that's definitely the exception rather than the rule. And often the families are just blindsided by this and they're just scrambling around trying to figure out what's going on. At the same time, the media is descending on them, and you know, people
are sending them hate mail or whatever. So I think it is important to realize that this family, as Scary said earlier, does need some protection and some empathy.
Lisa, you're their own long out what is the pulse
¶ Question: Lisa? You're there on Long Island. What is the pulse like of that community?
like of that community.
I actually live door to door without traffic, twenty three minutes from the crime scene. And this case has not only kept our community and my community, I mean both NASA and counties which make up half of Long Island on edge constantly and always. But now that we know where this individual has been residing this whole time, it's almost like a game of operation where the game starts shaking and the pieces get moving and next thing you know,
everything pops. And that's kind of where childhood anxiety comes from sometimes. But it's just everyone is still on pins and needles because right now we have an abundance of victims that we know of. However, we're also taking into account the fact of the amount of beaches that take up Long Island. How many other victims are there of him that have not been accounted for because it's coming out that he used to be an employee of the New York State Parks Association or the New York State
Police Parks, things like that. But as a beach worker in the seventies and eighties, so he's had access to vehicles beach, he knows the terrain, he's had properties there pretty much. He's residing in the childhood family home, which is from his grandparents actually, so he definitely has roots, he knows the area, and just the overall morale right now is just still incredible fear for locally, for those that do live in Massapequa Park, it's, oh my god,
he lived in our neighborhood. The other side of it is I knew the guy was a weirdo and a creep, which is why we wouldn't go trigger treating at his house. The other concern now is everyone finding out that it's him and taking a look at his property. He's an architect, why is his house being held up by a two
by four on the front porch. But as the information is coming out and on things that are being publicly presented as to money being found downstairs and access to public records, neighbors are finding out that his house is in shambles because he's got tax arrears on income tax on both the federal and the state levels, so he
was harboring money. So there's concerns about just the criminal activity that not only encompasses the neighborhood itself, but just the Long Island region in general, and what we don't know that hasn't been developed already.
All right, more, I gotta just tell you when I hear they swabbed leftover pizza Cruss and linked him to a hare found on a burlap sack with the remains of a victim, that sounds so unbelievable. That seems like that's just an episode of a TV show. Tell me, how do you balance it so that you are respectful
¶ Question: Tell me, how do you balance it so that you are respectful to law enforcement, the pending case, both sides, both families?
to law enforcement, the pending case and both sides, both families.
Well, you know, it is sort of a balancing and I think Carrie and Doctor Joni touched on it a little bit. That the victims are in this case obviously the ones that lost their lives or families or ones set of victims, but you know, you have the survivors of the of the people that do these crimes, and their lives are forever uprooted, so you have to be respectful to them. I've seen post online of people that are saying, oh, her hairs were found on a belt,
her hair was found on one of the victims. Could she have been involved? You know, with the most likely scenario being that you know, his wife's hair was on there. Because these victims were either in his home or in his car and it's transferred DNA. So people should tread
lightly when it comes to that end of it. But as far as the police investigation, you know, I've worked on you know cases before, you know, the Zodiac case, the Golden State killer case, where I've talked to investigators behind the scenes that will you share things and say, look, we need to get this out there. We want to help spread the word about this, and they'll give you insights, but they'll say, listen, you can't disclose this, you can't
disclose that. And sometimes there's some really good nuggets that you think are interesting, but you know, to protect the case and not jeopardize the case or your relationship with these people that are intrusting you, you don't share it. You don't put it out there. So I think it is a balancing act for podcasters or any other media, TV, whatever, to tell a story, but be respectful to everybody involved, from the police, to the victims, to the survivors.
Carrie, as you now have become an advocate when you talk to other families and you reach out specifically when you reach out to children of perpetrators, how do you do that? Like how do you maintain your sanity when
¶ Rawson candidly discusses her advocacy work and the emotional journey of supporting other families impacted by crime
this keeps coming up and it kind of you know, knocks the lid off your own PTSD and all these memories come back. But yet you have chosen to assist and to help and to show care and concern for these other children.
There's a lot of back end stuff that happens with a life like mine. You're you're not like I'm an I'm a victim AVOCA and a trauma advocate and a spokesperson.
I'm over here living my own trauma.
I'm back in trauma therapy with a CCTP right now.
That's just fantastic.
So a lot of a lot of the day to day stuff that I'm doing, You're you're, the public doesn't see.
I'm doing a lot of like backdoor media.
Work, moving pieces around, like I'm kind of like a little communication hub with several several journalists, investigative journalists, like hey, this is going on, like this domestic violence has gone really bad, and this woman's been gunned down in our house, and you know, it needs coverage and and so all I like, I take the Facebook t and my advocate network and my missing person's networks, and then you know, I move pieces around where they need to go, and so that's part of what I do.
And then when you're.
Talking about like working with people like me, the reality is that, like some of us were so high profile and some of us have been living this forever that we don't necessarily really lean on each other.
Some of us don't even really like.
Work that well together because I don't know, like when you're all a bunch of like abuse survivors and trauma survivors, even as great as some of us are like look like we're doing, we don't always necessarily like mesh together very well. So, like I am here and I am open to helping like people like on the high profile in on the other end, And if I was working with people like I privately wall those with wall that
relationship off and protect it. So the reality I'm facing right now is that I'm one person and I'm overloaded right now with like cold cases and emails, and I'm trying to work and network and build, like you know, your zone seven, I need to build my zone seven to like go tackle the world.
Am in absolutely and I'll tell everybody something else. She does when she's your friend, like she is mine, she will check you.
So in my.
World I don't always say possibly or accused or allegedly. I sometimes just say he freaking did it. But she will sometimes gently and kindly and sweetly say, hey, Mac, you know he does have children and he isn't time to do process, so you might want to throw in he's been accused of something or it's alleged that he's done something. So every time I get one of those
messages from you, it kind of makes me laugh. But at the same time, you're right, and we need to be fair on both sides, and we need to come with I think love and care and concern for everybody involved. Because your statement when you said your life is divided into two sides before and after, that's gut wrench at honey. I mean, but it's true. But I'm just saying as a mama here in that it breaks my heart.
Yeah, but I mean the truth is like, it's been eighteen years and I was born. Before I was born, I was a crime victim because my mom was pregnant with me with the when my dad killed Nancy fox So on his seventh and so I was a crime victim before I was born.
And I mean, you know if you're I say, like, we can't.
My friend Laura Kelly, she was a journalist for the Witchita Eagle and now she does like heavy victims work. She says, like, we can't heal with things that we don't talk about, you know, and we can't deal with things we don't know, right, and so we don't know these things, and how do we deal in heal with them and we don't talk about them if we buckle
down and do the Midwest. Oh, we all look fantastic on the outside with our manicured lawns, and we go to church in our Sunday finest and we serve the community and we're a Scout leader. All these things my father did you know? Then we hide really well, and we're hiding like our sexual, stadistic, psychopathic, you know, behaviors that are murdering people. So there's a lot of similarities there with my data and Rex, and that really just
blew me away. I was cousin something heavy. When I was reading the Bell documents Friday, I literally cussed on Twitter. Some high did and make news, but it was not pretty Friday and Saturday, when I was processing what this man has potentially done heal and deal and do the kind of work I do to help people.
You have to face facts.
And I'm literally, like right now facing new facts you know, every day, really like in my own life right now with my own father. So we're just healing and dealing over here.
Healing and delon. Lisa, I want to ask you something with your expertise, I think there's going to be a lot of people coming forward because this guy, again was a serial killer full time. It's what he did every day. And I think he for fun at the grocery store or the bank, or just walking down the street or catching a subway, would mess with people, would say things inappropriate to get a rise of them, to get a reaction out of them, and I think he was just
playing like cat and mouse. But I do think we're going to have a ton of people come forward with real events. But I think there also maybe some people
¶ Question: Lisa, with your expertise in statement analysis and in polygraph, how do you weed out the true reports and the false reports?
that might use this to get some attention. So with your expertise and statement analysis and polygraph how do you weed out the true reports and the fault reports.
So right now, from what I've observed your social media platforms as well as the local news here, that women are coming forward that he has been on gates with them previously they were sex workers, and he had been going on dates to various restaurants throughout Long Island, the restaurants that I've heard of through these narratives, which of course I don't have any confirmation as these narratives, but the details that are being provided by these sex workers
are so specific and accountable four that there really is a hard time to not believe the narrative that we're being told. And he's been hanging out on the north shore of Long Island, one specific location in Port Jefferson, and I would approximate Port Jefferson from Massive People Park is probably going to be about a forty forty five
minute drive mostly highway. When it comes down to all of these people coming forward and whether they're neighbors, whether they're people that have kicked maybe some of the employees that kicked him out of Home Whole Foods, because there apparently there was a situation where he was stealing fruit. Issues pertaining to neighbors and fighting with them. There was even a woman that had come forward he had accosted
her in the park even two weeks ago. There is public knowledge that his wife, who did file for divorce from him today, which we could definitely talk about. Also, she was expected to be out of town starting tomorrow in San Diego, and on the basis of the forensic evidence that's already been conducted, a lot of the crimes that he had already been in the process of being held accountable for was being done when she was traveling.
So there is assumption and or possible thought that the FBI, as well as the Suffolk County Task Force in conjunction with the state Troopers and the Parks Police, decided to apprehend him now because there's a possibility of while he was under surveillance, these agents and officers saw his negative behavior and possibly thought that he has the possibility of acting out again when his wife would be traveling starting tomorrow.
But we can't polygraph everyone the time, and the resources are just not there right now to go ahead and do so, So it does come down to again effective interviewing. I would hope that law enforcement will go ahead and follow up with these leads because even though they are not deceased, they still are victims of this perpetrator because
obviously there was intent. I don't know how far the intentions would be going but they are still going to be a victim because they still had interaction with him.
And more if I want to go back to you, because what Lisa is saying, I think is spot on. And he was purchasing more minutes for these burner phones, so clearly it looks like he's gearing up to do something nefarious. And I also think podcasts can play a role here again with people maybe coming forward to a podcaster to say, Hey, this is a safe place for me to talk about this. You helped me get to law enforcement, or maybe help me articulate what occurred with me, or some information that I.
Know no doubt about it. Some people you don't want to talk about something, but they don't necessarily want to share their face on the news. Podcast could be a good outlet for that. You know, it's a good way to talk about a case.
You know.
I covered the Golden State killer case extensively, and I talked to several victims of Joseph DeAngelo's who recounted the horrible things that had happened to them, But at the same time, they didn't want their faces or their names used. So it is an outlet to sort of dive into some of that stuff without you know, exposing yourself to unwanted attention that you might receive or people knowing who you were if you want to keep yourself private. But
you know you mentioned talking on a podcast. I think I posted a reply to you on Facebook. I know someone through the podcast industry here that has a family member who was friends with this guy the suspects, and he was blown away. His mind was just blown away when he found out this guy was arrested. He had no clue this guy was like this. And I actually invited him on the podcast because obviously I and a million other people want learning the details we can about
this this individual. And you know, he told me a couple of things, but in the end he didn't feel comfortable coming on the podcast to talk about it, so you know, I sort of have to respect that and not bring him on.
But you still got intel even if he gave you just a couple of statements. You know something about this person that perhaps law enforcement doesn't. And again I tell people all the time, the media is one of the best tools that law enforcement has if they know how
to utilize it. There are people that will not talk to police, that will talk to a reporter or a podcaster, And I think it is critical that we even let the people that are listening to this, you know, session, this episode, whatever you want to call it, You are free to contact anybody on this panel. Anybody on this panel, I guarantee you will help you, whether it's this case
or another case. They will help you navigate where you need to get your information to and they can keep you anonymous and help you period.
Joe mentioned earlier about sometimes trinkets and or trophies, and you and I had discussed offline a conversation regarding this, and we keep talking about information and the type of person that this individual is pertaining to the profile that not only law enforcement has on him, but the profile that the media is making, plus the profile of individuals observing this case from the outside. So there's a lot of characteristics and a lot of traits that sometimes are overlapping.
But again, public perception and opinion do play into it sometimes when an individual develops their own thought process. And one thing that's sticking with me is the concept of trophies and on the basis of the information being seen and what I'm personally taking in, not only as an expert, but a resident of the area of where this has
all been occurring. And what I've been following for the past couple of years is that I don't think and again this is my opinion that law enforcement, with all of these diggings, with going through the house, while looking at his properties in Las Vegas, locking at his properties in Massachusetts and South Carolina, because again this is now becoming a multi jurisdictional investigation, that I don't think that there's going to be trophies. I think what he's taking
¶ An exploration of a chilling concept: the idea of 'metaphysical trophies' and the psychological warfare some criminals deploy
away from it would be referred to as metaphysical trophies, and this ties into the cell phone forensics that we're done. And what I mean by metaphysical is that he's an
intelligent individual. He's smart, conversational, personable. From what other people have said throughout the interviews that do know him personally, I mean apparently his property manager in Brooklyn that knew him for thirty years referred to him as a gem to deal with and highly knowledgeable and he was a big goofy guy, but a little bit on the nerdy side. So public perception is there, obviously on the basis of
interpersonal relationships. But what I think he's taking away from the victims that are associated with him are those burner phone calls to family members in the back end, I think that he's not collecting or had collected trinkets and or trophies. I think what he has taken away is the fact that he made those phone calls to family members, and that's his trophy. He took the power away from the family. So the family members now can identify his voice as the individual that took the life life of
their family member. And so I think there's a very
big psychology component to that. Obviously higher order thinking showing the fact that he is as knowledgeable and as smart as he is, and that, to me is probably the scariest part of what could be this investigation, the fact that he not only allegedly, and I'm going to use the word allegedly, despite all the evidence against him, committed these crimes, but then he went ahead and continued to revictimize the families on a psychological warfare component.
I have never heard the term metaphysical trophy. Now you have got me fixed on that, and I understand completely because when the sister of one of the victims says he knew my name, he called me and stated my name, and he's just psychologically messing with her.
Yeah, he's just continuing in his mind to further be the offender that he is, but not only offend against the victim, but further victimize the family with this psychological torture and social emotional abuse by knowing the research that he had already done on them, which is discoverable obviously through the forensics that was done on the computers as well as cell phones where his Google search history is looking into the victims as well as their family members
also some of the other kids that are in the family. So he really has taken it to such a degree and so far off the spectrum per se where he's looking to go ahead and continuously intentionally harm the family, which is why I think my again my opinion, but I believe that that's part of the that's his trophy, that's what he's further taking away.
And we've seen this in cases before. DiAngelo did the same thing. He'd call his victims up twenty years after he attack them, just to terrorize them again. So there's definitely a history of killers doing this, reliving that moment, getting a thrill again and terrorizing victims family members of victims.
It's awful more if you're absolutely right, and Carrie, I want to ask you a question. I know that you and I have talked privately, and there are sometimes people, just general public people that will right your father, and if he responds to them, they want to contact you and tell you about it, And so to me, that's
¶ Rawson offers a rare glimpse into her life, highlighting the many faces of a serial killer, including that of a father
another twisted way that he's trying to get to you.
Yeah, so I had to legally cut him off a couple of years ago. Well, so my father's a sexual statistic psychopath and a pathological liar and a narcissist, and I have a feeling Rex based on what we know is right up in that same categories as my father, very very similar critter creature here. You know, I tried really hard for years only through letters, and there were
gaps where I couldn't handle it. And I tried. But then when I started becoming public and speaking up in the news and was writing a book and stuff, my dad wanted a piece of that pie, and that narcissism came back in and I just I would we could get through for just a tiny bit, like he said, I understood, you know, I had caused my family to be victims, and then all of a sudden, it was like he he wanted control again. My father is a very controlling individual, down to like a pencil or what.
He had to go to the bathroom from twelve to twelve fifteen when he came home for lunch at noon every day. So heaven help you if you need to go to the bathroom, because we had one bathroom and three bedroom ranch like live with BTK and like fourteen square hundred feet, Like.
Yeah, that's fun.
So like the reality is with somebody that controlling and narcissistic, even when they're locked away in solitary, there's are going to be running their show. And so he called it his cave and his El Canara, his el Cavera. And then he has he's the Kansas Pisces. So he's even taken on new identities now that he's in prison. And then he has like major league fans and minor league fans, and then he has people that take advantage of him that sell.
Like his letters and his art. He calls them vipers.
And then I call like people that contact him and then contact me. I call them his minions and his flying monkeys. I'm managing all of this insanity on a daily basis. These people hit my social media and they email me. The worst ones text me like they wait until, say they listen to this podcast or if I was live on YouTube or something.
They'll wait till I'm all nice.
And rattled and profiling with like, you know, like brilliant people, and then they'll wait until I log off, and then they'll text me something horrible just to rattle.
Me before I go to bed.
The question right now is are these people doing this on behalf of my father's and like, is my father getting off on it or is it people just bad people kind of taking advantage of my dad or enjoying like.
Getting off on like his daughter. That's a big question.
The reality, unfortunately, is that it never ends. I basically call myself and the other high profile families like a living, walking, breathing, never ending crime story.
Unfortunately, it never ends, y'all.
Here's what I want to do before we sign off. Any of you have a last thing you want to say, a SoundBite or a point or a quote, anything you want to say that we haven't touched on. Now's your chance,
¶ Final thoughts from the panel of experts
and I'll just start with Lisa.
If you have something.
The last thing that I would want to convey to the listeners of this episode is that there out there again in the media.
We need as experts, in addition to viewers of this case, we need to focus on the facts just because there are theories, just because there are so many different moving parts right now. We need to not only focus on the three victims that he's allegedly being accountable for, but we also cannot forget that there are other victims. We have to stick to the facts of what's being there. And there is no problem with going down the rabbit hole and being vested and interested in a case from
a learning perspective, But the facts are the facts. DNA's DNA science is science. There are more than qualified individuals that are handling this case on the federal, state, and local levels, and we need to trust them to do their job efficiently and accurately, because the last thing anyone needs is an investigation like this being rushed and possibly someone getting away and not being held accountable for their actions.
Yeah, I would just say to try and be patient. I know it's human nature to want to know everything all at once and have all the answers, and the truth is it's going to take time to sort through this, you know, I hope if that if there are more victims that can be attributed to this guy, I hope that can be determined because at the end of the day, there's a lot of victims families waiting to hear what's
going to happen. And I think, you know, especially if there's people talking online on social media, on you know, the citizen detectives out there that are sort of working this case and looking at other cases talking about it online. Remember, there's there's people lives that stake here. You know, a lot of these people are survivors or victims who lost someone and then again in this suspects case, his family has just had their lives imploded. So you just be patient and be respectful.
Just I guess reiterate what Lisa and Mike have already said. But I guess the other thing I would say is just remembering that these were young women and they might have been escorts for a period of time in their lives,
but they're not just quote sex workers. Every person who was a victim of this person, if again he has found guilty, have a life story, and that life story ended up very tragically I just think it's important to think about the fact that, you know, to the families and the friends of these young women, they weren't, you know, just sex workers. And so I think and I've been very happy that I haven't heard a lot of talk
about that. And there's no question that engaging in certain behaviors that are illegal can put people at higher risk. But I just want to, I think, just reiterate that that you know, what we are much more than what we do or what we've done at a certain point in our lives, and it's important to keep that in perspective.
For the victims and the families out there that are still waiting for justice, and not just for this case,
but for any cold case out there. Just remember that there are men and women working hard on these who live by the model never give up, and there are people working on these cases diligently, and unfortunately sometimes this takes a long time, but we can see the fruits of their work and see exactly what their role is and how they're going to go forward and try to help bring that closure to families.
Carrie, I'm gonna give you the final final word, oh Lord, no pressure, but it's got to be brilliant.
I just want I just want to appreciate, thank you all for being in my life and letting me come in and out and be a trauma victim and survivor and advocate and teaching me all the Zone seven ropes. I think, what you know, my colleagues here are saying is like, we got to be patient. There's a lot more coming, I'm expecting. I always say things seem to be like, you know, it's going to get worse before it gets better, and a lot of aspects here. I'm really glad that we caught the scritter.
That's amazing.
I'm hopeful for these families that will keep clearing these cases.
There's really nothing better than that.
I mean, it doesn't change things, that doesn't bring anybody back, but being able to clear these cases is huge. And then we just got to be patient, like you know people are saying. And also we just need to remember Rex's family and keep them in mind and remember to respect them as a victim family because that's that's what they are at this point, That's what law enforcement's telling us.
And seek out the good, the good, the good, you know, the good people that are trying to stay above the bar and being factual and.
I don't know, just like just stick with it and and.
Be productive and useful, you know, like we were talking about, like go figure out out some cold cases, or contact any of us if you have something, and we'll route it around. We all can keep working together and keep that tide moving here.
We just got to do it together.
Seek out the good. I love that, and you know I tell my own children, love wins. This was one evil person, but I can literally tell you there are hundreds of people trying to do something about it. So love wins. There's more good people than bad. I want to thank y'all again for being here with me, not just on this episode, but in my career and in my personal life. So I'm going to end Zone seven
¶ "Crime must be evaluated in its totality. There is no substitute for experience. And if you want to understand the criminal mind, you must go directly to the source and learn to decipher what he tells you. And above all, why plus how equals who" -J.D, Mindhunter
the way that I always do with a quote. Crime must be evaluated in its totality. There is no substitute for experience. And if you want to understand the criminal mind, you must go directly to the source and learn to decipher what he tells you. And above all, why plus how equals who? John Douglas mind Hunner. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is one seven