¶ Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum. Sheryl shares a high school story that sets the tone for the importance of teamwork in solving complex problems
When I was in high school, we were headed to the state championship in volleyball, and our coach had a great idea to have the football coach kind of come and pump us up. And he was a famous high school football coach, Graham Hickson Honey, and we were so excited to hear from him. And I'll never forget he walks in, he looks at all of us, and he says, y'all are not the Woodward Academy women's volleyball team. You are the Woodward Academy volleyball team. He said, you don't
have last names on your jersey for a reason. We are one team, Woodward Academy. And the football team and the swim team and the golf team. Everybody's behind you. That is how I phil today about the people that again have stopped everything going on in their world to come meet with us to talk about the Long Island serial killer. And I appreciate every one of them. And
¶ Listen to the previous episodes on the LISK case: ;
I'm gonna get right to Sergeant Joseph Jackaloney. He worked
¶ Sheryl reintroduces guest, Sergeant Joseph Giacalone to the listeners
cold cases with NYPD, He worked at the Homicide School. He received the Medal of Valor. And when I tell y'all, he wrote the book literally he wrote the book on cold cases and then he followed up with the second book on criminal investigation, so he has the cold case handbook and the criminal investigation function. So, Sergeant, I'm going to go right to you, what do you think is
¶ Question to Joseph: What do you think is next for this investigation, the next steps?
next for this investigation? The next steps?
I think we have to find out who our other identified victims are, right, So we have Peaches and we have Asian male and along with Peaches is we know as her daughter Jane baby Dough that they referred to or as And it's important that we identify these individuals because if law enforcement wants to solve the case, you have to start off with who your victim is, so that you can go back and try to piece together what was going on in that person's life, who they
were hanging out with, what they were doing, and of course maybe somebody remembers something back then, because when you put a face to a name, then all of a sudden, a lot of things come back to the surface.
¶ Question to Joseph: Do you see this task force being even larger than we think that it is?
Do you see this task force being even larger than we think that it is.
¶ Joseph talks about the growth of the task force. He emphasizes the crucial role of expanding the investigation team
Yes, I think the task force grows because as this investigation starts barreling forwards, So we have at least on the table I think you have the fourth victim, Maureen Brainett Barnes will be added to the docket, and then you have to look at the other six or seven individuals out there that were found along Gilgo, Manorville, and
Henstead Lake State Park. I name all those locations because unfortunately, pieces of them, of these victims were found in all of those locations, so they're all tied into Gilgo some
one way or another. And I think Peaches is up next in regard to it, and I believe, and I think most of the people in the panel believe that they already know who she is because they kind of I think the Mobile Police Department kind of might have made a mistake by putting out saying the FBI is looking for help to try to identify this family member and here's a tattoo. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that was a I think that might have been.
An oops moment. But that was back in October.
So I think by now they've identified Peaches, which is important.
It is important, and I think they've identified her and the Asian male, and I think we'll be hearing very soon about both of those victims. Lisa Rabekov, holigraph expert
¶ Sherly reintroduces guest, Lisa Robicoff to the listeners
private investigator with a case of this magnitude, How do
¶ Question to Lisa: With a case of this magnitude, how do you think private investigators could possibly help this task force? I'm thinking specifically interviews with sex workers, possibly internet searches, and government records. What do you think?
you think private investigators could possibly help this task force? And I'm thinking specifically interviews with sex workers, possibly internet searches,
¶ Lisa Ribacoff is brought in to discuss private investigators' roles. Her insights highlight the value of collaboration in the task force
government records.
What do you think, Well, you just named three out of a couple of things that are on my list here, so you're definitely ahead of the ball. I think that the resources that the task force has now are excellent, and especially considering the communication and efforts that are being done jurisdictionally across the board and the open lines of communication.
But I do think that if there are individuals that are licensed professionals that do have a skill set, that the task Force could be reaching out to them, or these individuals could be reaching out to the task Force to donate their time and services, because I do feel that interviewing the sex workers in the region area, possibly even reinterviewing the ones that have already been interviewed, just
for a second set of eyes, is beneficial. As for searches, As a licensed private investigator in any jurisdiction, we are limited to what we are able to get our fingertips on and what we are allowed to have access to within our license. There could possibly be the idea of again the open lines of communication with pis to provide their resources in time to law enforcement to possibly save
resources and allocated towards other aspects of the investigation. I know for myself, I've done a little bit of digging all through public record researches on the basis of properties in South Carolina, research here in New York pertaining to
the properties here. But again there's information that is accessible to the public, and I think the public does need to be aware that just because we have licenses to conduct certain investigations and to conduct searches, that there has to be permissible purposes.
And that's the.
Fine line between being a licensed investigator and or working on a task force through a law enforcement agency versus being a member of the general public just wanting to look around.
Excellent, And I like the point about volunteer their time and talent. Sometimes that could be the difference in you know, getting a chance to look at something and not because sometimes your budget doesn't cover what you're needing to do on the case in the first place, much less bring other people in. Mike Mo Morpord y'all know him as
¶ Sheryl reintroduces Mike Morford of the
the host of Criminology podcast, How are you Mac? I am great, but I'm like everybody else. My mind just keeps clicking with this Long Island serial killer thing because it's like information comes every day for us. But when I think about you, what comes to my mind is I want to know if you're seeing from your listeners as far as the things that they're interested in on this case, what are you noticing?
Well?
I think everybody is sort of looking for the next leg to sprout, because this case just seems to sprout more legs. There's more locations, there's possible victims. A lot of people want to know if there's any way that he's connected to those Atlantic City victims. I think we all probably agree that they're very well, maybe more victims
if he's out there. He's got these gaps time and sometimes killers do stop for a time, but sometimes they don't, and there are some stretches of time where it's not known exactly who is doing it until those blanks get filled in. That's the thing I'm seeing is people just want to see how many more people and how many lives has he taken, and where are they and where what's going to be the next headline to pop up?
In this case.
Think you're right. The next headline is coming, and I think there's going to be one after the other after the other to try to understand and dissect. Now, Doctor
¶ Sheryl reintroduces Dr. Joni Jonston back to the listeners
Joni Johnston, forensic psychologists, private investigator, author of serial Killers one oh one questions true crime fans ask. You have said from day one that there's no way if the Long Island serial killer is Rex that he started killing in his forties. We know now from the Fire Island Jane Doe being identified that she went missing in nineteen ninety six, so that would put him right in that thirty something early thirty age bracket that gives us fifteen
years before the gill Go four. Just tell us what those numbers mean to you.
¶ Dr. Joni Johnston discusses the age of the Long Island serial killer. Her thoughts explore the psychological implications of age in serial killing
Well, those numbers are pretty frightening to me when I think about the possibility of the number of victims that could be out there, and you're absolutely right it is. I think the average age that a serial killer starts killing is around twenty eight and I think in nineteen ninety six he would have been around twenty seven twenty eight years old, So that really does line up with
the average. And then you think about, as you pointed out, do you think about the fact that you know, you fast forward thirteen years, fifteen years, and you think, you know, the younger he is, I think, the more likely there are to be victims. And so, you know, is it believable that he didn't kill a lot of victims after you know, the ones that were found in twenty ten, yes, twenty thirteen, yes, But before that, I mean, I would have imagined he would have been more active the younger
he was. And given that we know that he's been tied to several states, now, you know, I imagining, just imagination just kind of goes while thinking about all the possibilities here.
Do you think that they're tied to locations where he lived had some type of connection to or do you just think he picked this spot and then just kept it because he was comfortable there.
You know, when you look at their research on serial killers, definitely most of them pick places where they are comfortable. You know, that can be somebody somewhere close to work, it could be their home, it can be somewhere close to where they live. But very few serial killers go
around different places that they're not familiar with. Even if they're going to a place that where they don't live, they typically do a lot of reconnisance beforehand because they want they don't want it to be a lot of surprises. They want to feel in control of the environment.
¶ Sheryl reintroduces Kerri Rawson back to the listeners
Carrie Rawson, advocate, serial killer expert, author, It does seem like, you know, things are changing every day and more information is coming out and victims are being identified by name.
¶ Question to Kerri: How do we continue to advocate for victims and keep that mindset of being respectful toward victims, families, and suspect families?
How do we continue to advocate for victims and keep that mindset of being respectful towards victims, families and suspect families literally when stuff is changing every day.
That's a really good question and something I'm trying to navigate because I'm in like several lanes here of trying to advocate for like on the criminal side, for a family that's innocent victims like Asa and her kids, you know, So I'm trying to speak up for them, but I'm not wanting to cause harm to the victims. Families that have lost somebody that you know, have a murder victim.
I know it's very difficult for them. You know, they're seeing these go that's go fundme, Like Ace's family needs help, but their families need help too, right, And then it's got to be brutal for these families, like some of them are even on Twitter that have lost like their sisters or cousins, and you know, like they're constantly in
a timeline seeing Rex's face. And then like it's hard for me because if I'm asked on record by a media outlet to speak, you know, I might be giving a victim advocacy component, but then I don't have any control, as you all know, over whatever else is in that article or the photo, right, Like I don't even have control over that headline. So for me, my reality is you're always going to see Btk's daughter, Like I don't have any control of putting my victim advocacy work next to Rex's photo.
You know, you'll you'll listen to the.
Seven victim families of my father's and some of them are more vocal than others, but like they'll talk about like how all this focus is on my dad, and sometimes they'll say, hey, like you're focusing on him?
Man, Man, I got like lanes.
I'm over here trying to walk really really carefully because also the reality is I have things I can add about the investigation, and you know, about these critters as I'm calling them, but like I want to be sensitive to everybody and shoot, I don't know, Mac.
Well, no, that was well stated. I mean that's the reality of your world. You're saying, you're in all these different lanes, but those lanes shift on you.
Yes, yes, ma'am, they think and as you were saying, and everybody can attest to you in this Zone seven, those lanes are moving very quickly, very rapidly, and we're all being called in varying degrees to be news.
You know, I'm thinking about all the folks that responded to the different scenes and then especially the processing of the home and you're talking about being ground zero for two weeks, and you know there's some folks that already have some PTSD happening. You know, some people at that scene looked very very young. To me, Sergeant, talk a little bit about what does happen to you, because I know, doctor Jony and I were talking a minute ago. There's
an old saying that we all use. You can't unring a bell and you can't unsee something.
Well, yeah, especially coming from many of us who spent lots of time down at Ground zero too and did all that.
And you know, in New York City cops.
¶ Sheryl and Joseph discuss the use of humor in dealing with police mental health
Unfortunately especially, I mean I got on the police department in nineteen eighty two, and by nineteen ninety four we had hit the you know, we were up.
I think that might have been like the high water market. I think nineteen ninety was the highest for all of the crime for murders.
So we saw a lot of stuff, especially early on in our careers, and as things went along, you kind of get I guess you build up a resistance to it, and you know, you deal with your own you know, you own self defense mechanisms, and that that's why sometimes if you watch that that crime scene or the search warrant, you see some of the cops.
You know, just laughing or that kind of thing. It's a defense makeans.
And a lot of people get upset about that when they see cops laughing at crime scenes.
But I try to explain to people that you have to do something. It's it's just to break up the reality of it.
I know, uh, you know, doctor Joni there would definitely have more of an inside on this, but just from normal everyday cops. Yeah, these things can take the toll on them. And and you know, mac a lot.
Of people, a lot of cops they have they have a lot of problems dealing with it.
I mean, it's high alcoholism, there's high divorce rates, there's all kinds of things that go along with policing, but it has to do with the job.
Itself, absolutely, and that humor. It is something not everybody understands. But sometimes you've got one or two choices either bust out crime or bust out laughing. And a lot of people would rather laugh and you know, feel that camaraderie and that sort of thing at a scene. But I know, for me, sometimes when you've got something that just is really extra twisted and evil, there's only a handful of people you can really talk to about it that falls into the whole police culture.
In the blue cocoon, however you want to refer to it as I just had another guy. I spent a lot of time in working with him. Unfortunately he took his life only a couple of weeks ago. I've known a number of cops that killed themselves, and you know, people say, well, they had family problems or they had financial problems.
Yeah, I understand that, but.
It's like the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back. So you know, it's important that police departments focus on the mental health aspect of things. But it's a really fine line they have to walk because if they really research this and really get involved into it, you're going to have a lot of cops that are going to get surveyed off the job and night and how police
departments can't afford to have that. So it's like the dirty little secret when you're dealing with policing and that respect, it's like it's ignorance and apathy, who knows and who cares, and it's it's the bottom line. They figured out if that if something happens, we'll deal with it. Then until then we're going to keep on, you know, pushing ahead.
Well, like Graham Hickson said, Coach Hickson, you know, we're one school, we're one team, and I always feel like we're all one department and we need to make sure all those folks that are working this case know that they have our support and our respect and our help
if they need it. And that's another reason when you have a platform like morph has that you know you can talk about things and you know have guests on your show that even if one of your listeners is maybe not aware of some help or maybe if they just hear a story and go, hey, the same thing is happening to me. Sometimes morph you may not even know the good you're doing for somebody by telling some of these stories.
Yeah, and that's especially true on my podcast, The Murder of My Family, because I talk specifically with, you know, survivors who've lost a family member to murder. And sometimes they come on because they want to, you know, it feels healing to talk about it, sometimes because their case is unsolved and they're asking for help getting tips and leads generated, and sometimes because they want to help other people.
A lot of them will tell me there's no manual on how to deal with this, but I've learned X, Y, and Z, and if I can help somebody else that's going through this, then you know, I'm happy to come on and share my story. And I hear that quite often.
Now, Lisa, let's talk a little bit about the timeline. The timeline to me is the money tree when you first start any homicide, but especially one of this vast parallel investigations and single investigations that are all going to somehow be woven together. But for me, on a timeline,
¶ Question to Lisa: When you start identifying some of these victims from the Long Island serial killer, that's going to give us the date that they actually disappeared. How important is that intel?
when you start identifying some of these victims from the Long Island serial killer. That's going to give us the date that they actually disappeared, and that's going to fill in some blanks. How important is that intail?
I think once we start figuring out the timeline and we know specifically when we can go ahead and have the identification of these victims, we can then go back and hit boots on the ground and start the interviews, start putting feelers out there, like Joe mentioned, putting a face to a name and going ahead and being able to acquire those details to which then searches and investigations
can get done. So that way, I mean, even something as simple as doing a DMV search to go ahead and check a driver's license for last reported address, going ahead and checking social security records, checking border registrations, checking even their own criminal history. So that way we can develop a profile on the individual.
And there's two sides to that line. For me, when I do a timeline, it also is going to lock him in if he's trying to come up with some alibis once we know dates he may or may not have alibis for some of these dates where the person originally went missing.
Correct, I mean, there you could ask me, where was I six weeks ago at this specific date and time, and I'll tell you I have no clue. I'm not going to know. I don't even remember what I did yesterday or what I've rate and had for breakfast this morning. So it's going to take definitely a long shot from him to be able to go ahead and figure out
where he was and what he was doing. And again it possibly could come back to cell phone triangulations and geofencing and see where his phone was hitting to jog his memory. But again it comes down to recognition and recall and memory and whether or not also, I mean, how much does he recall? I mean, we don't know how many victims are actually associated with him. We don't know his his specific level of psychology or even memory recall, because how much information has he retained for each victim.
We don't know if he kept a log or a journal pertaining to the dates and circumstances and facts of whatever alleged murders he did commit, because there we know that there are some visuals that do commit crimes, that do commit a journal, keep a journal, keep a log of what they have.
We also don't.
Know depending upon what gets I guess produced with regards to discovery on the basis of the search warrant in South Carolina, because we know that the vehicle was ascertained.
But with regard to those searches, his brother has possession of the car as per the search warrant, we don't know if he possibly had that vehicle at one point, if he's ever changed license plates on the vehicle, Why specifically did he transfer the car to his brother, or even most importantly, what was the date of the transfer to his brother? Is there a symbolism behind that?
Great and that's all timeline information? And doctor Joni Lisa makes an excellent point, and it's one that I think everybody on this panel has talked about. I firmly believe
¶ Question to Dr. Joni: I firmly believe he's going to have journals and calendars and maps and I think he's been very detailed in what he's done. What do you think?
he's going to have journals and calendars and maps, and I think he's been very detailed in what he's done. What do you think I.
Tend to agree with you about that, Cheryl. He's an architect number one, which implies that he's pretty detail oriented. The amount of research he did on some of the families and continue to follow them makes me feel like there are certainly an obsessive part of him. Is somebody who keeps revisiting information, So I agree with you. I think there will be some written information that he has kept somewhere, and.
I think there's some things that he does almost wrote, that he doesn't even realize he does, Like sergeant you know, you know there are some cops with NYPD that could not work undercover. Everything about them screams they're a police officer, like straight out of Central Casting. You know what I'm talking about.
Oh absolutely, I was one of them.
Yeah, well I was going to theorize that, and that's what I'm saying that, Like that one photograph with you when you're in your London fog, you look straight up like if I was doing a movie and I needed somebody to play a New York City police man, you're it sor all day. And I think with you know, Rex, if he is the Long Island serial killer, there are things that he did from the aspect of his training in his career that he doesn't even realize he's doing. That tells who he is.
Well, sure, I mean this guy, there's usually something with these individuals in regards to you know that background specifically,
¶ Joseph elaborates on factors that influence serial killers. Insight into the identification of a killer's first victim and the mistakes they make
I mean, we know that environment and experience and of course some biological things that would make these these guys tick. But you know, to be able to pull something like this office so long too, also gives you that in depth that.
You know he is.
He is kind of smart in certain aspects. He knew he knew what he was doing. Yeah, he made mistakes, but that's where you know, law enforcement has to come in.
But to identify those.
Mistakes, you just from the law enforcement perspective, and I've said this before, you need to try to find out who the first victim was because that's where he makes the most errors.
Right.
So I think we're starting to see that with some of these cases. Now you know, did he make mistakes because he got sloppy, or did he make mistakes because he was in a rush? I mean, all of those things, you know, come to play. One of the things that I've been asking over and over again they try to get a conversation on, is we really never talk about where these homicides happened, right, you know, where do they occur? I know some people think that they have, you know,
something happened in the house. I still don't believe anything happened in the house. Too many nosy neighbors there as a Pequa Park. You took it to a kid who grew up on Long Island. You know it's they're very close. The houses are really close. You can see that, you know when you're watching the videos on there too. Everybody knows everybody else's business.
The other thing is, did.
It happen in a hotel or people say, well, hotels, Yeah, no, it didn't happen. Too much surveillance, right, too much videos. You got to check in in order to get a room, you have to show your all that stuff.
I doubt anything happened. And this guy's huge.
I mean, he's he's not somebody who could hide and plain sight and in regards to you know, a group of people, he would stand out under every circumstance.
And how do you get a dead body in and out of a hotel room twenty times and nobody notices.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying with all, especially with all this Savaila, this is survaillance video, even in the staircases or when you're trying to exit the doors, or you know, inside and outside. I find that not plausible at all to me. I keep on going back to the truck. You know where he's.
Going out with the with the women.
You know, we know that he's got a couple of them to leave their cell phones at home the night that they disappeared.
You know, maybe he picks them up in his truck or what have you.
I mean, this is of course all speculation, but that's what we're doing here, right, We're just taking a look at it and seeing we could put pieces together, just like you know, normal investigations would happen. But you know, I think that's important, and I think they were surprised that these trucks even exist because he has two avalanches. People think a lot of people overskip the they.
Took two avalanches. So that's that's the kind of neat aspect of this thing.
But see, I agree with you, Joe. I think one was for killing and one was for driving. So when he stopped and they take that car, there's no blood in it, there's no hair in it, there's no killing tools and weapons in it. So Mike, let me go to you. We know that he's associated with different properties, you know, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Arizona, Rhode Island.
Whatever.
Do you think that he's got some little piece of land somewhere that he can pull that truck into some trees and do whatever he wants for as long as he wants, and then has some burr lap and some buckets and some tubs that he puts people in and body parts in and the transports them.
¶ Sheryl and Mike discuss the possibility of the killer owning secluded land
It wouldn't shock me. I mean, this guy, from what we do know he's alleged to have done, and the things you know that the clues that have been revealed, it wouldn't surprise me. In the areas he probably frequented to find these victims, they're probably not going to be where a lot of people are willing to come forward, so he can probably have a little more privacy and the fact that those people aren't going to be out there coming forward to work with police on a regular basis.
So I think right from the time he would pick them up to wherever he was disposing of them or actually murdering them, he probably you know, hoped and sought out as much privacy as he could, because, as Joe said, there's no way he stands out. He's just wherever he's at. If he's with a group of people, you're going to
see him out of everyone else. The places he could go are probably limited, but we know this guy's a hunter, so I'm willing to bet he knows some stretches of woods, some waterways where there's not going to be people, and that's a place where he could maybe take these some of these victims or disposed of them and without prying eyes looking at him.
We're talking about waterways, we're talking about land, and we're talking about privacy.
Through my I guess rabbit hole and needs to know.
Regarding this investigation, I actually did some record searches down in South Carolina, and apparently his chunk of land that he purchased down there, Number one has a sign on the fence or which is surrounding the entire property that says no warrant, no entry. So that right there, I mean, I know for me, I wouldn't even if I had a house at one point I had a fan some Why would I put.
That on there?
¶ Lisa highlights unusual property in South Carolina. A potentially significant clue
Why would I raise suspicion of my neighbors. Why would I possibly want to go ahead and even just put that out there. If I wasn't going to be a law abiding citizen, why go ahead and have suspicion raised upon you? And the other side of it is if I didn't do anything wrong. Why would I even put that there to begin with, So that right there is
kind of interesting. The second interesting about the property is that through land records, I was able to go ahead and access the actual tax property and they what they do is they do an aerial photo in addition to showing the grid lines of where the property lines extend to. And he actually purchased the property which sits on two bodies of water, and he's down here in South Carolina.
It's literally the middle of nowhere. If you were to zoom out on the property address and take a look at the land around it, for at least two hundred and fifty miles, there's not a single body of water. But this man conveniently purchases the property and his property line contains access to two bodies of water. And mean they're small lakes, they look like they could possibly be
man they're obviously man made for the development. But he's got access in the back of the house as well as the front of the house.
And just to piggyback on something Lisa just said, she's doing searches for properties that he has owned or had access to, But what about properties family members of his? What about properties that he had when he was younger, or places that he knew of that aren't even in his name. There could be a plethora of different places he's familiar with that aren't necessarily tied to him.
And Mike, is funny you said that because I even thought he has an adult son, is he using his name and social Security number to buy property.
Or even to rent? Long Island procedure is that you just go ahead, or I mean probably most places, is that as long as you have sometimes a parent, if you have to co sign on a place, I know I had to do it when I first moved out of my parents' house. I had to bring my parents as a co signer on the lease, just so they knew that I was going to be paying money every month.
And I just showed a photo ID and considering the fact that the Sun is special needs, that could be a justification for him being on a piece of property just as a rental and then paying cash.
Carrie, let me ask you something. When some of these theories come up and people are talking and now we're just saying something about the sun that may or may not even be accurate. But again, how hurtful is that to his mama, his sister.
You just have to deviate, like and make sure you're clarifying that he could like it's not the sun doing this that you know, like allegedly like Rex could be using his kids' names or social Security numbers. I mean, there's several components here, Like you just have to remember in these conversations, like it's all my father's fault, It's it's all allegedly Rex's fault.
Like all of this devastation.
Death, disruption to the community, PTSD, like what everybody's enduring
¶ Kerri shares personal experiences as the daughter of the BTK killer
law enforcement task force go away from their families, Like in the case of my father, there were detectives that devoted like decades, right, they were looking for my dad for three decades. There were detectives that passed away and never saw my dad getting caught. And there were these stacks of files that were being handed down a decade over decade, like to these young guns that were coming up.
Through the ranks.
And the reality is like my father's first case was in seventy fourth, so we're getting close to fifty years here. I have detectives that I call my detectives, Right, they were on the task force. They helped catch my dad they're retiring now, so my detectives they're retiring, and now literally Btk's daughter has been handed to some new guy. And when I say a new guy, I mean he's been on the task he's been on the police force
like twenty some years. He's probably my age, right, so he's he helped like he was part of like some gang task force and he got to sort of help arrest my dad. But if you talk to the Wichita guys, they all help. They're literally now like, okay, who do we hand his daughter to? Right as somebody retires, Like who do we hand these files to?
But all it all goes back. It's all my dad's fault and it's all Rex's fault.
But like like doctor Jony can help me here. But the thing is when you guys are talking about like we don't know where Rex took his victims, Like I'm assuming he did pick them up at a motel and then he transported them in the truck alive somewhere, or maybe he bound them somewhere, But I don't know if he could have done that at the motel. Somehow he got them away from wherever he was meeting him, or he has some location where he met them. I mean,
that's where you got to look in the records. The thing is, I just don't think he would have spent the time he did with him in the truck. That doesn't make sense to me, Like you would have to park that truck somewhere covered. Now, of course, you could be transporting bodies in there, or you could have dismembered people and then transported him. The evidence will tell us
that that was happening in the truck. But if you're spending time with them and bounding them and wrapping them and the cares, that's where I get all messed up and confused this because it's like he was very careful with Go Go for and it just doesn't match the other ones. But it doesn't mean it's not him, because you know, they evolve and they change. I just it feels to me like we're missing some corn it sort
of key component. Like my father broke into homes and then used those victims how to us as coverage, and he ran into all sorts of scenarios he wasn't expecting, and he had to adapt.
Rex really eliminated a lot of the trouble.
My dad would use the word trouble that my dad ran into because he's literally controlling this like petite, little five foot woman, you know, but we don't. I don't know did he take him back home, did he take him in the vault? I mean, evident will tell us right or property records or investigations. It's just it feels like this missing component to me right now, and I don't know what it is.
Man, I feel the same way carry that there's something missing, and I don't know. I do feel like he is going to take them somewhere that's enclosed. I have a hard time also seeing him doing all of these things in a truck outdoors. I also I have no problem seeing him transporting bodies in a truck as well. To me, given his reputation in the neighborhood as somebody who was kept himself, some people saw him as scary or odd.
The family was very aloof To me, It's not out of the realm of possibility that he could find a way at night to bring somebody to his house with his family being gone, and spend a lot of time in that vault with them and then transport them out. But it'll be interesting to see. I feel like you know, we don't know. Obviously I'm completely speculating, but I do think he is taking them somewhere where he feels comfortable and he can take as much time as he wants
to with them. And maybe the hunting, maybe somebody has a hunting cabin that he borrows or whatever. That's the other possibility. But it's hard for me to see him doing something where he's not completely comfortable physically as well as psychologically.
All right, anybody else want to throw out anything.
¶ Mike talks about crime scene investigations' impact on criminals' families. An exploration of the emotional toll and aftermath
It was just sort of I think we forget that when obviously we talked about his family being victims of a different kind. Obviously that they weren't murder victims. He victimized them in another way. But just the police obviously have to go into that house and tear that house apart looking for evidence, but to see those pictures of what they were left with, because now they've got to deal with this aftermath. And then if they're going to live in this house, how do you live in that house?
I mean, beside what may have happened there and the things are probably worried about now, it's the bath hub ripped out of the thing I was, you know, it reminded me of what these homes look like sometimes when the police go through them looking for evidence. And you know, I wondered what Carrie's thoughts are on something like that.
As a citizen and as a crime victim, I don't honestly know are there laws that protect victim like crime victim families of the criminals. And then in a crime scene like you take Idaho for like, is there any sort of law or protections like hoop for that cleanup? Is there a cleanup or do the police just release it? I mean, you guys can address that in a second. But like from my viewpoint, my situation was different because my dad confessed the first night they basically held against
my dad. He was holding out for them for the last first like six hours and then interrogation. He was playing games and he was he was being like just a real big pill, like and everybody knew they had em and they basically were just getting kind of fed up with him, and they said, look, they're like, we know, we know your BTK, and we know you have.
Evidence in your house. You know, they knew he had sent in.
A driver's license from his eighty six murder, and they knew they figured he had other driver's license, and there were jewelry missing, and so they're like, we know you have stuff where like where is that stash? Like your most important evidence? And they said, if you don't give it to us, we're gonna we're gonna toss your your house and really harm Paula, my mom and the kids. We're gonna make things worse on them by tossing that house.
So from what I understand, they literally use that as a pressure point to get my dad to give up the goods, which was evidence that was buried under a floorboard in our hallway. Now, they would have had to toss that house pretty darn hard to find that because
it was under a really heavy cabinet. Right, So between that and having the evidence they had and my dad and then my dad just finally saying yeah, you got me on BTK and then my dad gave him a thirty hour confession, which we're not seeing here with res that we know of. So the situation's different because my dad was cooperative. He walked them through everything he told him. Like my dad has an insane memory even nowadays, he can tell like we were all saying, we don't know
what we had for breakfast. My dad can give you an alibi for some week and in October in nineteen ninety. Now it might not be true, it might have ten lies around it. But he literally can still remember things down to like the name of a creek where he put a body in like nineteen one, Like he can draw you the bridge. Like that's the insane level that my father still operates at. And he's elderly, so it's
just a different situation. So, like Mike was asking about the house, it's hard for me to see like all of that evidence piled out. But Mackett, you made a good point, like they got to go in there. We don't know if crimes were committed there, like you have, like as a crime scene tech, you have to go in and you have to look at everything. I mean, I understand from the evidence point what they got to do. I would have just liked to see some team go
in there and kind of fix it for them. And literally I don't understand, Like this is where like the trauma comes in, Right, You're so traumatized and you're like, well, I'm just going to go back and live in my house. Well, this is where the disconnect is and somebody needs to come in like doctor Jony and work with these people like like psychology and trauma therapy and victims' advocates and come in and go like, hey, guys, you're living in
a crime scene. Can we get you like a safe, quiet, new place to live and be like.
So you can heal.
¶ "Nothing about murder is clean. Everything is messy. Everything is horrible. Everything is gross."
Nothing about murder is clean. Everything is messy, everything is horrible, Everything is gross. So to me, when you look at Peaches, I believe that her baby, doctor Jonie said the other day, sadly was collateral damage. When you look at what happened to that house, sorry, that's collateral damage. But again Rex did that. He did that to his family, and as a crime scene person, looking at that house almost like they're hoarders. I have no idea what any of that
stuff is and how it fits. So I'm going to try to take all of it. And then I believe he does have things hidden. I think he's got maps and journals and codes and little notations on bar napkins possibly and some type of way that he's kept a log of things. I want every bit of it. I'm gonna make holes in the wall, I'm gonna pull up the floor, and I'm gonna move anything that is obviously too heavy because I don't trust what's behind it, or what's underneath it, or frankly, what's inside it. So I've
got to know. And again, it is horrible and it is sad, but I'm gonna tell you something. If you were to ask those families had you'd rather have your house tore up and get your child back, Well, there you go.
I use the term ripple effect because it's when these guys do this kind of thing. They destroy everybody's lives, their families, they're victims. They're victims, families, the officers that they've got to put all the stress on and what they've got to say. So nothing good comes from this. This is these people destroying countless lives in so many ways.
And the ripple effect is massive, and it continues like there's just another tidal wave and then another tidal wave. The more you find out stuff, You're absolutely right, sergeant, any final fault.
Yeah, Generally, the way these things work, the family can
¶ Final thoughts from the panel
have recourse. And if you listen to the press conference when they ask the district attorney about the house, and you said that she can file any kind of you know, things she wants to which I think was kind of foretelling because generally the way these things work is that when they do the search warrant, if the police go in and they don't find evidence, they generally the city, of the state or the county there is responsible for fixing things and repairing it, but if they find evidence
of a crime, they kind of walk away from it and say this is all on you now. So I thought that was kind of foretelling that the district there, and he said, well, she can try any way she wants.
Yep, agreed.
I think that's one thing I wanted to just say as we kind of wrap things up, is just this idea of the ripple effect and also just how it affects so many different people differently and depending upon the role and the relationship with the individuals, and I think it is important. I know, Joe, you were talking about some of the silent suffering that police officers endure for years and the things that they see, and Carrie talking
about some of the things that you've gone through. I think you know there are resources, and there need to be more resources, and I think particularly resources in terms of talking to people who have been through the same thing that you have. I think when you're talking about a trauma like this, whether you lost somebody to homicide, or you spent years viewing homicides, or you grew up
with somebody who was committing homicides. I think I don't know if there's any substitute for finding other people who can really understand, and they're not that many people who understand. And professional counseling fantastic, and therapy is fantastic as well. Obviously I promote that as a psychologist, but I do think that peer piece of it is really really important.
I've done so much trauma therapy and I'm back in it, and yeah, it has it has helped. It's one of the components that has helped save my life. You know, faith has helped save my life. My own strength that my dad taught me or I was born with and he honed, and literally he built me partly to be strong, I think because he knew what was coming. I really think my dad built me partly, built into me to stand up to him, which I did on multiple occasions.
It's interesting when you think about it that way.
But all of these components, my faith and you know, my children, all this stuff keeps me alive. But really what's brought me back to life is really like the development of my Zone seven and really just in the last half year really honestly, since Coberger was arrested, like all of.
These people have come into my life.
I'm like, now you guys are all like becoming colleagues or like family, Like I really don't have much family anymore. And so for me, you know, Mac and I were talking like all of this hell is happening all over here and it's got awful, but we all like find each other in it, and we we get closer, you know, like we're all in it together as we're like working the problem.
That's what I call it. Like we're all over here working this problem.
Together, and we build, we build like our family as we're like educating and learning. I'm literally sitting here learning from you all tonight. But like I'm I'm getting a family back.
So that's that's like that.
Key component, like doctor Joni was talking about about having each other and there aren't that many people that can deal on the level that I need people to deal. And so like when I find like my my true crime netters is, I'm pretty happy because it's like I found my face, I found my people.
Well, getting your family back I kind of the kind of got to me, all right, I like it. I like that all day. I do thank you all, and I you know, I do believe you know what coach used to say, you know, one school, one team. Well, I feel like we're one community in one family. I mean, I really do.
So.
I just appreciate y'all desperately. So now I'm going to wrap up so y'all can get to the bar. I mean, to your family the exactly. Well, that's how we do.
As long as you're not taking the family to the boy.
You know, don't question my parenting.
It works for us.
Man.
I'm in Manhattan right now, Manhattan, New York. I got every often imaginable bar, and.
You need to go take advantage of about nine of them and enjoy yourself. I'm going to eat end Zone seven the way that I always do with a quote. We will support this task for us with every tool
¶ "We will support this task force with every tool it needs to hopefully bring this investigation and these murders to a successful conclusion." -M.J.D
it needs to hopefully bring this investigation in these murders to a successful conclusion. Michael J. Driscoll, Assistant Director of the FBI of New York. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone Heaven,