¶ Welcome back to Zone 7 with Crime Scene Investigator, Sheryl McCollum
Y'all, Welcome to Zone seven. Today is a training day.
It is really.
Important for me to give y'all tools so that when you're helping us work a cold case, you have a base of understanding that's not just the general public.
So today we have got.
An expert that's going to be able to tell you
¶ Sheryl introduces Dr. Priya Banerjee to Zone 7
the difference in cause and manner of death.
We're going to talk about wound recognition.
You're going to get a really good understanding of how somebody works to determine whether something is.
A homicide, suicide, or an accident.
We are so fortunate and honored to have with us doctor Priya Banergy doctor, Welcome to Zone seven.
Oh, I'm honored to be here.
I tell you, if we had a good time last week, then we did. We did, y'all. We got to have.
Dinner, we got to go to the aquarium, and we got to hang out with some experts from South Africa that are helping us with wildlife crimes.
And I'm going to tell you, you know, you've come across people every now and then that you know might be smarter than you.
But when you combine that with somebody that is so willing to help and share their knowledge.
It's just a gift. I mean, I keep saying it, but that's what it is.
And in my job, Priya, the thing that I love the most about it, I don't have to know everything, and I can literally go to somebody that's one of the best there is and say, hey, help me, and you will, and so all of our cases to me just become that much more solid because of folks like you.
You know. I think that's part of my mission in life is too share knowledge. You know, we're forensicalathology. Despite it being on TV. It's such a small field, or I should say of us right working individuals that I don't know. I like meeting people. That's what got me into the field. It's everybody has a story, right. I think when it boils down to it, we're in the holidays, everybody just wants to be with their friends and family and be loved. And I think when you remember that,
you know that we're all humans. Despite our whatever beliefs that you know I think should be put aside. Uh, we have more in common than what divides us.
Amen.
And you know that's what drives me and I'm probably you too, you know, the caring, the sort of drive that we have to solve cases, whether they be current, if you will, you know, a fresh, new case or a cold case. It's that's the theme that carries us, right, And I say us because everybody that I've worked with, you know, puts as side any difference, any judgment. It's
¶ The impact of cold cases
all about we need to solve the case to the best of our ability, to respect this person who's passed away, you know, a child, Right, we talked about that cold case that was solved. I mean, that is incredible. I actually looked at the pictures again. It was a child. And today's my daughter's eleventh birthday. And when you talk about a twelve year old, a ten year old, you know, passing away, I just think about the impact it has on her family, the lasting impact and the community. Right,
she had friends, teachers. That's the kind of story that I feel, you know, carries us through. And we have to remember everybody's interwoven.
Everybody is interwoven. And it's so true.
Like even when you and I were just socializing the other night we bonded over my friend a part about Acharia. The first thing you said was she's man Goali, you know exactly, And it was such a wonderful thing. And I know, a Parna and I used to laugh all the time that you think we.
Are worlds apart.
But being Southern and be in Bengali, there's a lot of common ground.
It's all food.
It's all food, food and family, food and family.
And you know, we used to, you know, laugh so much because anytime I would visit her parents, I mean, you're gonna eat. There's gonna be a plate in front of you. It doesn't matter if you said, oh, no, no, no, I you know, I just ate.
I'm fine.
No, You're never on a diet.
You're never on a diet. Same thing in a southern family. We're gonna feed you, you know. And then the getting together to everybody in one house, everybody being loud.
And talking at the same time, and music.
I mean it was you could have exchanged either one of our stories and you wouldn't have known which family we were talking about.
By the way, I was having dreams of that carrot cheesecake. Yes, so I don't need a lot of jumper, but I must say some of the desserts in the South are like no other. And I indulged and the other day I was thinking what am I gonna have this holiday? I got to really, like, you know, kick and choose so I don't totally go off the deep end. And I was like, dang, I could use another slice of
that carrot. That was divine. I mean, it would take me a week to eat it the size that it was, but it was quality.
And that's another thing for y'all out there in Zone seven. I tried to explain to the good doctor that look, it's a carrot cheesecake.
It's basically a salad.
¶ Dr. Banerjee's impressive credentials
But listen, I know you are not about this, but I do want people to know more about you. So just indulge me for a minute and let me brag on you, because not only y'all is she a forensic pathologist. She is an expert in.
Homicides, autopsies, cause.
And manner of death, wound interpretation, crime scene analysis. She was educated as a Doctor of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. She did a pathology residency at the Johns Hopkins. She did a forensic pathology fellowship at the Medical Examiner for the State of Maryland.
She has been.
Deposed and or testified over sixty times in the last four years. Okay, that's over once a month, y'all. She has performed over three thousand autopsies. She's worked on military cases, NSA cases, and she was brought in on the wrongful death of Breonna Taylor. And you know she ain't busy enough,
¶ Path to Becoming a Forensic Pathologist
so in her spare time, she's also an adjunct professor at the Boston University School of Medicine. She's a wife, she's a mother, she's a friend, and she's an expert for us today.
Can I just interject before we get into like the depth of everything, Like I get asked by people of all ages. You know, I get contacted in email, in person whenever someone meet to me. You know, what does it take to become a forensic pathologist? And you know, I'm hoping that this can influence people. We need more people in this field. Okay, it's a dedication, just like any expert is, right, it takes a long time to
get there because you need a field of knowledge. But I went to medical school to do this, Okay, I had that focus, and you know I it was my calling all along. And I'm hoping that someone listening to this, whether it's themselves or a child or a cousin or whatnot. You know, a friend gets some inspiration to follow the same past, so to become a forensic pathologist or medical examiner.
They're sort of used interchangeably. My board certification as forensic pathologist and when I function as a doctor for the state, it was a medical examiner position. But they're really used interchangeably nonetheless. So I went to college, Okay, I had a four year degree in cell and molecular biology, and I thought I was going to be a DNA sloop. So it's still cool. I mean, it's amazing to see how far DNA's come. It's far far blown, you know, from what I learned in college. The basics are still
the same, but man, that's just exponentially grown. And I was a minor in criminal justice at the University of Maryland and that's what really sparked my interest. I fell into it and it was just amazing. So I took multiple levels, you know, basically at a minor in criminology and criminal justice and it was the perfect fusion when I got exposure at the upper level in a seminar on multiple areas of fors and criminal justice that the autopsy pathology, and I said, Oh my god, it's like
a medical mystery. You know, I can solve the puzzle, and I think that's what I love. It's very logical. You try to put the pieces of the puzzle together, right, You collect all sorts of data and observations and then go from there. So from there, I went to medical school, so I need to be an MD. Now I have a vast knowledge of medicine. Right, That's what I trained for. So you can't go and just say I only want to do this field, right, You really do need the
broad training. And you know, I'm always grateful to the University of Pennsylvania because they really gave me. They believed in me and gave me, you know, gave me an opportunity. No one in my family's a doctor. My parents weren't doctors, so this was sort of a blind pursuit on my end. And you know, that was a great, unbelievably great clinical foundation. And what I emphasize is so much of forensics, autopsy, pathology is understanding human medicine and biology, both behavior but
also medical problems. Okay, so how they manifest in the body. So that broad based medical training was essential. And from there, as Cheryl said, I went, I actually did a one year training to be a living person's doctor. Again, I need to know what it's like to be a doctor to people because sometimes I have cases that are medical based, right, not everything's a crime. If you will, people die suddenly more of medical problems, you know, that are either confused
or misdiagnosed or undiagnosed. Some people don't have doctors, so it's really important to pinpoint that and what it looks like in various people. Now, I do want to say I'm not a child expert, you know I am. Now I've done some you know, quite a few paediatric autopsy cases, but I'm not a pediatrician by any means or trained in that field. And then I took the tour of pathology, which means, you know, Johns Hopkins is a very rigorous cancer hospital, right, That's what the focus is. So you
know why we have to take this pursuit. Out of forty eight month of residency training where I learned to be a pathologist, only one month is forensics at the Medical Examiner's office. It's a very busy month, but you can't be an expert after one month. So I learned how to diagnose cancer and do various laboratory things, really important stuff. But that's not where my passion was. And so finally I did my fellowship. So that is many years.
You know, it's not overnight, and no one's born with this knowledge, but it's so if you want to dedicate your life to it, it's worth it. It's long, but it's worth it.
¶ The role of a Medical Examiner
I tell people all the time, the crime scene belongs to me, the body belongs to you, and it's imperative that you've got a good working relationship with that medical examiner. And I'll tell you about one case. There was a female found on the side of the interstate. She was nude from the waist down. She had a T shirt on that looked like something she had gotten as a tourist. She was wearing no bra, she was face down. She had marks on her that when I first saw her,
I thought was road rash. When I looked closer, it looked like bug activity. Up on the embankment, we found her purse. I mean it looked like a homicide. It looked like a hundred homicides I'd seen where somebody's you know, thrown out of a car.
Real quick, and the killer keeps going very.
Concerning, So I'm thinking sex assault, homicide right absolutely. I get to the medical examiner and fast forward it's a case of dungee fever, which one I had never heard of.
And two right the.
Way that they were able to break this down and explain to me suddenly this crime scene that looked completely one way was now very clearly another.
So again, that relationship is so important.
And I just want to say I didn't get here alone. We don't, right, we work together. But I was the medical examiner for the state of Rhode Islander, one of the assistant medical examiners for over eleven years. Over the past three years I transitioned to working for myself. But those eleven years after fellowship were really continued fellowship if you were okay, that is in the field training. So we had a very unique or still you know, the
office still does. I'm not there, but a very unique setup where we were on call and you know, doctors are on call, but what does that mean. We have a very unique job where we actually respond to a crime scene one call. So I'm not just available by phone if there's a need. It's not every case because
I would never get me work done. I mean, I have very keenly trained medical legal death investigators, and I learned so much from them because most of them were, like you, Cheryl, they were CSI detectives before they transitioned to the Medical Examiner's office, so they've seen both sides and the knowledge they have, it's it's like priceless. I took the job because how experienced and collegial the investigators were. So Nonetheless, sometimes many I've had to go to scenes
whether they be suspicious. So in your case, I would have been called to that scene. Oh absolutely, bagger hands. We take pictures, analyze it. Now, that's not the full story obviously, right, we found out much more. But it's always better to evaluate it as suspicious and then the autopsy and the laboratory studies will help us sort it out. Right, it's better to overreact in a way and protect evidence or potential evidence rather than lose it.
Agreed, Always better to go overboard, no doubt about it.
And again this was the case.
I'd never heard of Dungee Favor, so I wouldn't recognize it anyway. So I tell people all the time, even after forty four years, one thing I love about my job.
It's always going to be different.
And that's what I always tell people too, is why do I like it? Is because everybody has a story. Right. I could have two people, three people die of a heart attack. They're all middle aged white men, but one could have been at the gym, one could have been voting, one could have been just sleeping, right like, Unfortunately they all die of the same cause, but we all get there a different way. And you know, they're still special to their families. You know, the families aren't considered concerned
about anybody else. But when we look at what keeps our day to day interesting or unique, right, the unique presentations, unique stories are really where it's at.
Agreed, So why don't you give everybody just a real quick education on calls and manner of death?
¶ Explaining cause vs. manner of death
What's the difference?
Sure? And I think you know when I testify, when I teach, you know, this is the number one issue or responsibility I have as a medical examiner forensic topologists determining cause and manner of death. So cause of death is how you would describe someone died. Okay, So what I mean this is there's no way I can be uh complete, It's just an infinite number of possibility. But let's just talk about heart attack. That can go. You know, what we call is the top line of the death certificate,
top line of the aucasse report. Why did they die? They suffered a heart attack? Now did they do that in you know, what are the circumstances? How did that happen? And this is the manner of death. So they're closely tied, they're paired. Okay. So what I like to say is we don't practice in a black box. Okay, So anytime I'm looking at a death, whether it's explained or unexplained, I need to learn as much about the person as
they can. So we're going to go to the scene or talk to the doctor at the hospital, if it's a hospital related death, try to find out what brought them there, you know, was it ems, was it family? What medical history do they have? Are they on any medications? Right? I'm trying to learn and paint the picture. Where were they found? If it was found by family? You know, you'll often hear I'm sure you know this story, right.
They didn't answer our calls, they didn't return our text messages, you know, so that can give us an idea of what they were doing or not doing one of the last time they were spoken to, et cetera. So then we go into the autopsy. Do the autopsy. I'm looking at every order. Even if I think it's a heart attack, the doctor tells me it's a heart attack. They have a heart attack history. You never want to be so narrow minded. So the autopsy's really where you have to
have a keen eye. You can keep all that information in the back of your head. You really gotta just gather all the data, right, and then I do toxicology, and everybody, I don't care if it's a ninety year old grandma. I still do some toxicology because you just never know. And I use all that data to come up with the cause of death now and the manner. So remember, the cause of death is something I can
or test for. Right, I make this medical judgment, but I need to know the backstory and the manner of death. There's five manners natural suicide, homicide, accident, or undetermined. Okay, now how do I say that this heart attack? Why did he suffer a heart attack? So natural meaning it's a medical one hundred percent medical. No one did anything to this person okay. Suicide is the intentional taking of one's life, whereas accident is the unintentional outcome of an action. Right.
Homicide is the death at the hands of another or others. And an undetermined is really that small category we use when every effort under the sun to the best of our ability has been made and I cannot categorize it further into the first four that I mentioned. So all that backstory, medical history, that's all what's going to help me determine which is best to pick for the cause
¶ Challenges of undetermined cases
of death? Got you? So it's a long winded answer, but that's because it's not a black and white kind of process.
Oh yeah, none of this is yes or no. For sure.
You have now led me to my next question because as a cold case investigator, undetermined drives me crazy. So can you talk a little bit about I'm sure the frustration you have when you can't determine the manner of death.
In the industry, if you will, Our accreditation is ninety percent of cases need to be efficiently closed, meaning you know we have an answer for the family. Now why is it not one hundred percent? Because nothing is hundred percent okay, And the more challenging the case, the longer it takes to solve right or get the testing undetermined. You know, it's really hard. And I take a sigh because this is where I feel like I bang my
head against well. I'm so determined to try to, you know, give the family a concise answer backed by XYZ data, and I just can't. And it's really frustrating. It's appropriate in some cases, right, but luckily it's not most cases. It's a minority of cases, but darn it. Sometimes I cannot tell if it was a suicide versus accident. Okay. Sometimes I cannot tell if it was a homicide or accident. Okay, it's not clear cut, and it may be the scene
or the investigation component, right. So the police can do everything under the sun, and they still can't give me a clear cut answer. Right. So the undetermined we're talking about. It can be cause of death is undetermined, but it's mainly the manner that we're talking about, okay, And that's really frustrating, I think for everyone involved, where we can't pigeonhole it because that's what we're really trained to do.
That's what the satisfaction we get, right, solving the puzzle and it's rare, but you know, and these this can be a legal issue too, meaning does it go to court? Right? If I call it a homicide, that obviously has huge legal implications. Now, homicide in my world or our world, still is a medical determination. It does not mean it has to go to court, right, It does not have to be prosecuted, but it often has that heavy weight
that pushes it into the courtroom setting. Sure, So it's not a word I use lightly.
Exactly, and to explain that to everybody.
That doesn't mean it was a murder either, correct, So that's something to understand. You can have a homicide that's not a murder. Homicide literally just means a person to the life of another person, which could have been legitimately done in self defense.
Self defense or I'll tell you I had a case. Right, it's hunting season in many places, as it is Rhode Island. Two buddies were hunting, and they were hundreds of yards apart, right, and they were wearing their orange gear. But just one of the Buckshot bullets, you know, it comes out as
a cluster. This was double lot Buckshot, so nine marble sized balls and one just happened to go, right, they spread in the air hoping that it hits the target, which is a deer, but unfortunately one hit the shooter's buddy and the belly and got his kidney, and I had to call it a homicide. It's all over the news, and you know, I have lots of friends in the media. I do media because I want to put the right message out there. And I was freaking out because I
was like, oh my god, the homicide. We're just going to get out there and they're going to think it's a murder. But right in the classification definition, just like you said, this was a homicide, but there were no legal charges. And I mean, can you imagine going out
¶ Memorable and impactful cases
with your friend and this is the outcome to say, you know, the mental toll it took on the individuals is beyond right.
And we do we see it. We see horrible, non intentional dess like this a lot.
Is there a case that just stays with you, whether it was unique or scary or crazy, but just one that stays with you.
I'm going to talk about when I was the primary pathologist, not an expert consultant, And you know I don't usually talk about my cases unless they are closed, So you know, nothing I'm saying is going to be It's a very jarring case, but nothing is secret because it's already been tried and you know, finalized if you will. So it was actually, this really hits home as my daughter turns eleven today, and I'm say, being a mother, just like you are, you know, changes your perspective of the world.
So in my fellowship, I come in Christmas day and there is a missing young girl found after a three day search. She was kidnapped from her home, very brutally assaulted in every way possible, and then burned. And that case, I mean talk about evidence DNA proving you know, rape and you know, strangulation and beating and drowning and every connection there could be. You know, it was just it stays with you. And that was you know, decades before
I came a mother. Okay, that was in my fellowship in what twenty two thousand and nine, twenty ten, So it just stays with you that, you know, that's still one of the most horrific cases that yeah, you know I have a few that are like that, but I think you know, any pediatric case, any kid case, I think, right really makes an impact on us. They're just so vulnerable, whether it's a baby or an older child. I don't know. That just sticks with me, whether you know, even before
I became a mother, now more so. And that guy was a known child sex offender and he went to jail for three hundred years.
Excellent. He deserved every minute of it.
Every every moment, right, and being able to tie him to the crime through body secretions that we collected and you know the DNA was run, that is what tied him to her body. Right, So when we talk about Craze's evidence, that's why we do it. It's not just to determine what the injuries were, but it's really to prove who did it. And I mean it's still an amazing case and out of Maryland.
Then it sticks with you.
But you know, when you think about it, oh God, if this is how I want to spend my Christmas. Obviously no one wants to deal with the child duck, but it was how do we get through it? It's the rewarding. It's rewarding to see it come to fruition and have that kind of sentence.
And to get a monster off the street. Even before I had children, I was pretty good at not taking things for granted. But after I had them, I will tell you. You know how parents might say, you know, if the child says, hey, will you come play this game with me?
Or will you do this with me? I will in a minute. I never once said that to my children.
If they ever asked me to do something, I stopped whatever I was doing and played with them.
Took them to the park, played basketball, played.
Tennis, whatever, because I knew from my job these moments are fleeting and your life can change literally in a second. In a second, and so I don't ever want them to miss out, you know, being with me or having fun with me because I'm going to finish a load of laundry.
Are you kidding me? Nothing matters, Nothing match.
If you look at my house, it's cluttered, in disarray. But that's because I prioritize my family and.
We're getting there.
But you know, I think about after my mom passed away, any moment I would have rather had with her, and I do that with my daughter is like people like you do so much with her. It's because this is my life. You know, I'm a doctor and I do a service for the community. But then outside of work, I'm a person, right, and to be that mom, that's my number one job outside of being a doctor.
Because even the weekend we spent together, you were calling her, you were talking about her. You're like, oh, I've already done this because I'm bringing her back when we do our thing in North Carolina. She's already coming because she loves horses and obviously you met.
Both of them.
Back to you, I got a year long Georgia Aquarium membership so I can both come in and see you guys at the station again and maybe share some knowledge and then go to the aquarium.
And I got to tell you my Chief of police literally came back to me and said, I want to be sure I really meet her and wanted me to bring you back.
Remember when I said, did you meet you?
I'm sorry I felt that I didn't realize that because I also feel like that's funny because I would never want to take too much of the chief time.
That's so funny, and so he you know, he was so taken just by your level.
And it's such a great thing. I'm telling you.
Because you know, to be a police officer, you can have that job with a ged So again, to have somebody like you willing to take a phone call, willing to say, hey, I will walk.
You through this. Go look for this and this and this. It's a god, there's all there is to it.
¶ The value of relationships in Forensics
But I just, you know the way, I do want to say something that and I truly believe this. It's not just about the letters behind anybody's name, because some of the police officers I've worked with, I mean, the best cops don't necessarily they have experience, right, which doesn't come in the classroom necessarily.
Also common sense and street wise those are things you can't teach.
No, And honestly, the best chief of police I worked with, he's now in DC, I think with the DOJ Colonel Clements in Providence. He was a beat cop. He started at the beat level, he worked the roughest neighborhoods and worked his way up. And you know what, the respect and not like you both had the people's respect for you know, his colleagues and other officers respect because he was an amazing bridge to the community. Right, he's walked the walk.
But that's how I felt about you. And that's what I'm say saying.
You were so kind to my children, You were kind to all the officers.
You were kind to the other experts, and it goes we're.
There as a group. I don't you know, we all Okay, I can't be a pathologist. I can't go to court without my degrees and my board certifications. Right. That's really like not only the knowledge, but that's the legitimate legitimacy I bring to my testimony. Right, If I don't have the education and the board certification and all those letters, no one's gonna believe me. Right, how do you get taken seriously? But at the same time, there's no one upmanship, right because we're all working together.
And it takes every person. It takes everyone, every person.
And I always I always said, so Rhode Island is great about taking the small estate and chopping it up into confetti. Okay, And there's thirty seven different police departments or something, you know, believe you me thirty one thirty seven, I mean over thirty. And I had a peron in each department. If I needed something, I would call them, and they always have the working relationship with me. Hey, Doc, I need something, and I sometimes I say, hey, that's
not my cake. You should talk to the original doctor. But sometimes you know, off the cuff. I could give them, you know, an answer, or they would ask me. And it's amazing because you know, they respected me, but I
also respected them. They know their territory, they have experience that I don't, right, So I don't think it's you know, I have such a collegial relationship and I worked on building those because I knew that any work that I do, in any case that I handle or that the office handled, is it's better handled because of those relationships.
Amen, listen, I'm not going to take any more time away from your baby.
You go enjoy that child on vacation. Today's her birthday.
Yes, go celebrate that eleven year old.
What a tremendous, tremendous opportunity to just love her and
¶ "We have 62 counties in New York state and each has its own system of death investigation." -M.B
be with her.
But I just have to say again, all of.
Those counties in Boston and Rhode Island and Maryland, everything you have done. I always end Zone seven with a quote, So here's the quote, thinking of you. We have sixty two counties in New York State, and each has its own system of death investigation.
Doctor Michael Biden.
Doctor, thank you so much for being here. Happy holidays, and I'll talk to you soon.
Thank you so much, happy holidays. Thank you for having me.
I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.