¶ Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week's crime roundup
Welcome to the Crime Roundup Live from Delphi. I'm Cheryl
¶ Sheryl is live from Delphi for today's CRU
McCollum with the one and only Nancy Gray.
You know, Cheryl, I've been listening to a lot of your crime roundups plus what's with you, tap Might and Delphi. It sounds like you've been up to a four am what's happening?
I was driving until about two am, sure enough. But before we go any further, Happy birthday you.
I thought for sure i'd flame out before now. So every day is gravy man, everything.
It is absolutely icing all the time.
Every time I'd walk through one of those projects without a god, I'd say, well, this.
Is it, this is how it's gonna go. Yep, I ain't thinking in this way.
We got some things that have been happen in the last couple of days, and I've just got to get your tay as a former prosecutor, about how you think they're building this case. But the first thing I want
¶ Allen's psychological state and appearance changes
to ask you about is Richard Allen changing his height on his fishing license.
Now, isn't that amazing? Because I really really hated that you could not be with us last night when we did in MSN Mayor Street Media's Crime Stories, because I wanted to talk to you about not necessarily that very thing, but something related changing and I'm circling back. I'm not avoiding changing his appearance. And I compare it to, of course, Scott Peterson. You know, I hate using the same examples, but they're just so fertile, they're rich with comparisons. Scott
Peterson dying is hearing growing a goatee. And then you got, as soon as the survivor was Dylan Mortenson where it could have been Bethany said, the had bushy eyebrows and x y Z. He immediately fixed that, Brian Kohberger. And now he's getting a different kind of a metrosexual look. The changing of the appearance, because if you look at photos Richard Allen, for instance, the one where he's out with his wife at a restaurant slash bar, and he's
sitting directly in front of a composite sketch of him. Yes, he looks you know, you know, let me just say heavier. He looks much more like the man on the bridge, the bridge guy. And now he's just withering away. He's intentionally doing this. He's got that well, had that horrible goatee and it looks like cousin it has jumped on his chin. But what I'm saying, and that's a personal choice,
you know, fine, go for it. But if anyone see he's trying to change his appearance to differentiate himself as much as possible from the bridge guy.
He knows he was seen on the bridge, So of course that's what he's doing. And I'll tell you you, more than anybody I have ever known, could take one sentence out of fifty thousand pieces of evidence and make it so prevalent that it would just slap the jury in the face every day. And we found out that when they went to his home and was talking to him. And it's all over now, Amen, I could see that big at Dallas on a poster board.
It doesn't matter, it's over. I mean, I've.
Had a cop come to our house. Let's see. The twins were about three and we loved I believe I've told you this before. We love to go I return a little Methodist church. Don't ask me how this happened. I never did this as a child, but apparently both the twins loved it. They would look for bugs, they were bug investigators, and we would catch bugs and look for bugs and dig under rocks for bugs. And there was this walkway over at the church that had rocks on the edges and we would play for hours and
hours before I would have to go to work at CNM. Anyway, a vehicle, a big monster truck, came flying through the
¶ Analysis of Allen's statement, "It's all over now."
parking lot and came straight at the twins. We were kind of on the corner on the very curve, the most dangerous place to be, but there was never any traffic there. I jumped from him and pushed the twins back, and of course got the tag, and the monster truck scrooched off, you know, burning rubber. Well, of course I called the police, so you know, was a while later.
¶ Conspiracy theories and legal arguments
Two cops came to the door, and I can tell you this. I said, well, come on in, can I make you some coffee? Would you like a bottle of water? Blah blah blah. I don't say, well, holme a wrist up, go on and cut me. It's all over now.
I didn't do that, No, And I would love to.
Argue to Jerry's. When you see the GBI pulling up behind you, you may tap your brakes for a moment, but you don't take off at one five mph. Why because you don't have a dead body in your trunk, you don't have dope under your seat, you're not carrying an illegal weapon, you don't have a warrant out for your Sorry, we're end. So why did he say that, you're so right, Cherl? That would be at the top. It's all over now.
It's right exactly.
Can we just hit on the fact too, that when he knew he had been seen, So that's why he said, Hey, yeah, I was on the bridge.
I just want joll to know I was looking at fish but.
Scott Peterson and Scott Peterson, yeah, I was golfing until he found out the marina workers saw him. I'm trying to back the boat in. Then he went, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, is that the marina?
The same thing here?
And you know it's driving me crazy online all the crazy conspiracy theories.
Oh my god.
Cover up. You know you can't have it both ways. That you cannot argue the cops are stupid, which they're not, and this is an elaborate cover up. Okay, you have to pick which way you're gonna go. You can't have forty five and an elaborate cover up that has somehow managed to withstand all of this scrutiny because you know, if there was a cover up, the defense would be that would be their banner and they would be, you know, rancing around the courtroom waving the flag cover up.
And if they're gonna set somebody up, it's not gonna be with one unspent bullet. There's no way they would have knowled that would have matched his phone. That's just like when they said, oh, the cops planted blood at OJ's you know, Nicole Brown's theme from OJ. They didn't know OJ was hurt. They wouldn't have put his blood anywhere they didn't know he was cut.
That ain't how people.
Get set up. People get set up. Oh there's a bag of dope right down on your back seat.
I can see now, CHERYLD, Can I just explain something. I've tried to come up with an easy way to explain it. And when I get to Delphi, I hope you join me on crime stories. But I can tell you where Cheryl mccomb's going to be. She's going to be at the meet in three because there is one around the courthouse that's right right, there is one. Ours was Megabar yes, do you remember Megabar? I do ernest and I lived at Megabar yep, my investigator because they
had fresh turnips every day. Anyway, that said, that's where I'll find Cheryl. I might as well, you know what, I need to just go ahead and call production, tell them we're moving to the meet and three because we need Cheryl mccollumn. If she's not leaving until she gets
¶ Explanation of bullet cycling and forensics
that form bread, that is not happening.
Listen, is going to be me and seventy five attorneys, you know.
Okay, And now for Cheryl and the meat and three and moving production. This is what I want to talk to you about. Just cycling a bullet through a gun, not firing it dense the bullet cycling is just the act of loading or unloading a round into the chamber. But what it does. It can cycling a bullet through a gun dense the bullet knows and that can be matched back like a fingerprint to the gun. It's microscope
that you don't see it. The bullet still looks even shiny to you to the naked eye, just as a bullet that's been fired, unless has been you know, destroyed in some way, looks like you have to look under a microscope to see that in and those.
Tool markings correct.
So I'm anxious for that to come out. I need you to explain it for me when I get back to DELFI.
Yeah, I'm waiting on that, and I'm telling you the placement where it was found is also critical.
Between the two bodies.
That to me is extraordinarily telling because that thing, when it's ejected, goes to the right and slightly back, so if it's between the two of them, he was pointing that gun.
At one of them, who I believe was Abby.
Why do you say, Abby, I'm curious. I don't disagree or agree. I'm just curious.
Because if you're looking straight away, Abby's to the left, Libby's to the right, and he's right handed right in that bullets between them, so it would have ejected to the right and slightly back, landing between the two of them.
You know, that makes perfect sense. Yesterday I was thinking last night, I focused a lot on the fact that Libby's injuries were so much worse than well, they're both slash dead their throats, so it's hard. It's like parsing words, you know, mincing, splitting hairs, but there was an absolute disregard leaving. In addition to the murder, leaving Libby unclothed.
First slashes to her neck were worse. Just trying to figure out if she had been his object of desire, if she had been his target, maybe she could have been as simple as she brought back, or she said something back that made him angry. But just think about all the times he watched these girls come in and out of that pharmacy. Oh, this is what I'm waiting on. I'm waiting on the confessions because I guarantee you this guy revealed so much about the crime scene that was
never stated publicly. I had. He's a great lawyer, Philip Debate, How can you argue, Philip Debate, what would be your argument as to why Alan became mentally impaired and started confessing. Okay, you're gonna love this. He said, because the jail is starving him by giving him processed food with attitudes in it. That he has gone something again to the twinkie defense, and he started confessing. Well, what I've learned is Cheryl
that the killer and Delphi his family. Once he started confessing to them, his family began to turn against him, although they're showing up in court, and he thought that he would never be reunited with them in life and decided the only way you can get back with his family is in heaven. And to get to heaven he had to confess. Uh huh.
But I want to ask one more thing, is is your old role as a prosecutor? When the police were talking to him before he knew there was a video, he described what he was wearing that day and described the blue jacket, jeans and a hat.
Well, again it's the Scott Peterson placing yourself there. I mean he places himself at the scene of the crime, at the time of the crime. One thing I think is bothering the jury because I believe they asked a question about it. The jewors are actually getting to ask questions. They write them down, they give them to the judge, will to the bill. If the bill gives it to the judge. The lawyers meet, they turn on that static sound game so the jury can't hear them. If one
or both have an objection, they lodge the objection. That goes on to the record. The judg decides if she is going to allow the question. Then she asked the questions. I believe that they are are curious about the lapse in the cell phone where the cell phone should no
activity for a period of hours. Now, to me, it's pretty easy to understand because it's happened to me, where all of a sudden I get a torrent of text messages and they won day to back months and months and months of ke how can this be because it was obviously about something that was happening, like you know, just pretend my mom's birthday or day be getting the car fixed, something like that, and it was months later, I'm like, why is this coming now? That has actually happened.
But more more often, I don't get texts for a period of minutes or hours that all of a sudden a string comes in and I don't know why that happens, but I know that it does happen. So somebody better get up there on the stand and explain that, because the defense is exploiting that by saying, well, her phone was turned off, or the bodies removed, or they were taken somewhere else in return to this location, which doesn't
make any sense. Plus, the ground is saturated with blood where they were found, which means and that's where they were killed. But that could lead to some.
Sort of doubt, Nancy.
Everybody has had their phone get so hot the phone cuts itself down. If you go snowskin, it's the same principle. If it gets too cold, it's going to shut itself down. She was cold, they were wet. That phone could have literally powered down because of temperature.
Yes, it could have. My phone powers down a lot when it's hot. You're right, Cheryl, I've never had the reverse.
Right, but the reverse will be true. So again, you think that water, I mean that was melted snow.
That water was freezing.
So again, you've got wet clothes, you've got wet bodies, you've got wet ground.
That's going to happen. I think you know.
One of the witnesses got angry at the defense, lashed
¶ Jury's management and trial integrity
out on cross examination, and then it did not behoove the state at all. I wish that hadn't happened. I don't blame the witness, but that didn't work out well for the state. I think it led to some people believing the witness had credibility problems. The witness has said she saw the bridge guy muddy and then bloody and then muddy and bloody. Essentially, it's what happened. But when you see someone coming in mud and or blood, how do you differentiate between that at a.
Distance, especially when you're not looking for anybody. Think how many people pass you every day. You're not looking at them as far as I better remember what they look like. It's only when somebody stands out what stood out to her is the appearance.
So you can only get so much.
I mean, it's happening in you know, hundreds of a second, You're like, there's a guy, he looks really bloody and muddy.
It is. It's really weird. It's like the waist down. What would occur? Is he hurt?
And then you're almost a little frightened. So you can only in your mind gather so much information, especially if you're not trained.
To do that.
You know, this blue Carharrent jacket six hour two twenty six forty caliber A forty S and W cartridge. I wouldn't keepsake box from indresser. Now what do you make of the item seized at his home?
You know, I'm extremely curious about the motorcycle cover, wanting to hear why they took the aquapena bottle, but the twenty three devices. When you are telling me you're going to keep a pager, you're going.
To keep flip phones, but you don't keep a phone that was associated with you being at the scene of a double murder of two children that you know has a GPS, has timestamp that can show Hey, in case y'all don't know exactly when I was there, here it is.
And again he's claiming he was on the bridge. Well, he don't claim he saw another man anywhere. He doesn't claim he sees victims, Nancy. He only claims he sees the three girls that he knows live to identify him, because the other two didn't live to identify it.
I'm just thinking, through everything that's happening, I wonder why the jury is reacting. I mean, I know how the family's reacting, but what are they thinking. I would stop at the end of every day of trial. I would stand alone in front of the jury box and try to reconstruct what each jury are, how they behaved, and I would make a count at the end of every day. Okay, I think I've got this one. Aunt tell them about
that one. This one's a problem, and whoever was a problem I would argue directly to them or ask questions looking at them, tried to connect with that is your r the whole next day. I mean, it's really it's an art and a science. Cheryl and and All. I always say, once you've got twelve of the box, your case is done.
That's right.
But I'll tell you, I think the jury being able to ask questions.
For you, you would.
Be able to say, Okay, I know where they're headed because this is what they're asking, and you would be able on the fly to help them and navigate where they needed you to go. But I want to just say one more thing because I know you and I know how you would have ended this whole thing so far. Everybody in that town, and you and I have been to Delphi multiple time. Those posters, those composites were everywhere, every place you could eat, every hotel, every gas station,
everybody in that town. When Kelsey put it out on social media showed up. You remember Grandma when she explained it looked like, you know, lightning bugs all through the woods. There were so many flashlights and people everybody in that town stopped what they were doing looking for those children. When Richard Allen, the police guide him and were talking to him.
He got up and left.
To me, is so clear, And when I read all these crazy conspiracy theories online, I just hope that's not infecting the jury. What do you know about where the jury is staying and how they're being handled.
I don't know anything, but from what I've just heard of the people say that it's a very seamless event. They are picked up, they're put right there at the courthouse. They stayed pretty much there, Lunch is brought to them, and they're taken right back. They have very limited access to the outside vote.
I know that one juror was unable to watch when new pictures were shown in court. I'm glad that jury is facing strict rules. I know it's a pain in the behind, but strict rules regarding what they can watch, where they can go, because the last thing you want is a problem with the jury. Look what it's done in Murdoch. I mean, I do not believe that Becky Hill swayed the jury. Do I think she may have said inappropriate comments like hey, y'all going to reach the
quick verdict? He he things of that nature. I don't think it affected the outcome of the trial. But I think out of the to avoid the appearance of impropriety, that there's going to have to be a new trial because of jury misheddling, even in an innocent way, not intended to hurt the jury, not intended to sway that you're
¶ Final thoughts in Dephi
but it happened. We don't want that in Delphi. We do not want that in Delphi.
That's right. Absolutely. I want to ask you one more thing. I have a theory about the phone.
So Abby is wearing Libby's pants, right, and they're wet because there's no way to get wet pants back on somebody that is their pants.
So she's smaller, so that can happen.
I believe that phone was in that back pocket and when he drug her into position, it simply came out of the back pocket.
Oh, that reminds me of something one of this year ars asked the question was the earth and or the leaves under I guess it was Abby's body disturbed? Now why did they want to know that?
Well?
I think it goes to what I'm saying. Was she drug so if the earth under her was disturbed, they would be able to know that. So was she put into place? Was he staging the scene. Is that why they're two feet from the blood. So again, if those pants were put on her deliberately, because remember they were unbuttoned on zipped, she didn't hike that way.
So again, it looks like to me that's what would.
Have occurred, that he's putting them where he wants them to stage that sin.
Agree, Okay, Cheryl, I'll see in Delphi. We knew it was coming, now it's here.
I can't wait to see you, and I know the family is grateful you're coming.
Bye friend, Bye Bebby