Curiosity As Your Travel Guide + Exploring Overlooked Destinations with John McKenzie

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It's personal, right? This whole thing is personal. I think of the little kid that I was and how if I had ever dreamed of actually being able to go to any of those places, I just would have wanted to know that it's possible. Not that, no, you can't do that or that's not realistic.

Sure, it might be very challenging. I don't have a I don't have a how right now. How is it actually going to happen? Because that's too overwhelming. It's like when you have a goal that's very big, you you don't wanna think of the entire goal, you have to break it down into small pieces.

That is my buddy and today's guest, John Mackenzie. You can learn more about him at johntheweler dot com. We touch on, of course, a lot of themes related to travel, and one of the biggest Curiosity, something that binds all of us together as travelers, as humans. and the value of curiosity. We'll get into that. And John has been traveling to a lot of more off the beaten track countries, let's say, especially recently. You can't find a lot of information.

on some of these destinations. He talks about his approach to traveling to those types of places and Just the mindset around that. Of course, he shares some of his favorite underrated destinations and regions of the world, including one I've had on my radar for a while, as you'll hear. And perhaps coming out of this one, a call to transition

to a different style of travel for yourself. Who knows? All that coming and loads more in this episode. Buckle up strap in thanks for being here and welcome to the Zero to Travel Podcast, my friend. And business opportunity. And now you're home

It's Jason here with ZeroTotravel.com. Welcome to the show. Thanks for hanging out, letting me bring a little travel into your ears today. This is the show to help you travel the world on your terms to fill your life with as much travel as you desire. What does on your terms mean for this year, for yourself? That might be a good question to ask yourself. I'm gonna ask myself the same. You know, our terms.

can change over time, of course, just like uh you know, an athlete playing for uh a team or whatever and they have to, you know, get a new contract. What if we had a contract with ourselves? A travel contract. What would that look like? What would our new terms be? I don't know. Maybe some food for thought there going into this one with

John Mackenzie. John was also featured recently, I should mention, in the National Geographic Travelers Atlas of the World. It's a book covering every country in the world, written by travelers who have been to the places they wrote about. And he can now say he's a published national geographic author, which is really cool. And we'll link up to his website as well before we dive in, which we're going to in one second. Don't forget zero to travel dot com slash newsletter.

is where you can get our free newsletter each and every week. And I will wrap this one up with a quote that I think ties it together nicely if you want to stick around on the back end for that for now. Please enjoy my conversation with John and I will see you on the other side.

What a pleasure to be here in person. Nonetheless, with my buddy John Mackenzie coming through Oslo, Norway. And welcome to Norway, man. How are ya? Thank you so much, Jason. I'm doing amazing. We just met up like forty five minutes ago. Said you want to record a pod before we get too deep in these conversations. So So we don't miss any of the good stuff. What is your

main reason for wanting to do this, like what what do you want people listening to to kind of walk away with from this conversation? I think that's a good starting point because We've both known each other for some years. I'm gonna dig into your backstory a bit, but I thought

There's so much to talk about. I know you have this uh new goal of traveling to every country in the world. You've just done some writing for National Geographic, a lot of exciting things happening in your life. You're on a solo trip right now for a month through through Scandinavia and some other countries.

And there's a lot to unpack and I just thought, well let's start there so people can kind of get an idea of what to expect and then we can sort of work backwards and learn a little bit more about your journey. And of course, along the way I think some travel tips.

some other things will come out, I'm sure, per the usual. So anyway, welcome to the Zero to Travel Podcast. I'm glad we're finally doing this. I'm gonna throw my sweatshirt over to the other side of the room. Um, yeah, what are you thinking, man? Yeah. Well it's it's been quite a journey uh the past several years, uh, but right now I am all in about my my mission of Curiosity. It's not a new concept, but for me, uh what I've noticed is even with people who travel a lot.

Not everyone approaches travel in the same way. I think people don't necessarily expand their range of what's possible when they travel. Yeah. And I'm here to try to expand

and help them learn how to expand their mind a little bit when it comes to getting more curious. Okay. I love that. So yeah, curiosity obviously a linchpin for travelers and I think one of the main traits a lot of us have in common, curiosity about the world that's driving you to go see it. But it's interesting for me to hear that you

you know, even among the curious already curious travelers, which you were already, the idea that you can open that up even more. I wanted you sh to share a little bit more about that and how Maybe not exactly how you've personally done that, but maybe just some examples of how you've done that in your life recently. And then we can talk a bit about, you know, maybe some actionable stuff that's helped you along the way. Yeah, I mean I've always been fairly curious, but I think

like a like a workout, curiosity to me is a little bit like a like a muscle. Um you you can you can strengthen it. There's ways to improve it. it can be expanded without even you realizing uh that it needs to be. Um and I think that's something that I've learned along the way. I certainly don't. claim to have exercised my curiosity to the fullest extent, but it is something that guides me, not just in travel, but travel is the conduit that I'm using right now to

uh to share, you know, what I'm what I'm doing. But uh really in everyday life with everything, uh when I hear someone say they're bored. I think oh, that's just misplaced curiosity because there's always something more to learn, something more to do. And you just need to have a a step that gets you closer to wanting to to make that change to do it or to explore it or to try. Yeah. Whether that's food or, you know,

you know, traveling to a new place or doing something slightly different in your routine, a any of those types of things. Hmm. So boredom kind of the thing that can ignite.

Or open a door on a new thing that you're curious about in some ways. I I remember a while ago I spoke with a musician here and I was asking him about his creativity and one of the things he said uh that was essential to his creativity was being bored. And at the time, this was years ago, I was a little confused by that. I was like, that sounds weird. But then I realized how right he was, because when I was growing up

Uh when I was bored, I would find something to do and then that would lead to the next thing and to the next thing and so on. Because out of the boredom comes uh activity generally. If you're just if you're too bored, you're probably gonna get moving at some point. But

A lot of times in this day and age, people don't give themselves a chance to be bored because we got that lovely internet in our pockets all the time. Yes. But that's a whole other discussion. Yeah, I guess I'm just wondering for you, was there A time kind of going back, was there a time where you felt like you were losing the curiosity you had growing up and you needed to sort of reclaim that for yourself? Is that where this

this uh this mission came from or something? Yeah, I think it it's a little bit more uh nuanced, I think, for me to even have re the uh the decision that this is an official mission that I want to to do. Yeah. Uh I did have to go through some steps of, you know, getting you know, I used to have my full time job uh during the pandemic was probably the lowest point where it felt like there was little

avenue to exercise curiosity anymore. And then I realized I had to hit that low to r to kind of come back from that and say, wait a minute. there are some things I can do to be more curious, even though I can't travel, there's other things and just taking some steps towards towards that from looking into, okay, what do I really want my life to be like after uh having been to different conferences and events and listening to your podcast and everything just

I had to get some of that old thinking out of my own head and maybe the boredom was part of that. The boredom that I didn't necessarily c say, oh, I'm bored, but it was Uh it was more of a uh lack of changing in the routine which can be boring and that caused me to rethink everything. Okay, what can I control here? I gotta I gotta do something to change what's happening. Yeah. And then that kind of kick start a little bit of a spark that then led to the next thing and the next thing. Mm.

Yeah, uh going back to what you said in the beginning about it being a muscle, because I think that's a good way to a good lens through which to filter this conversation because It can be that you take your curiosity for granted as a static thing, right? Like I'm either a super curious person or I'm not, or you know, of course that ebbs and flows, right? But the idea that

Yeah, if you get into a funk, you can just try to open that up or unlock it a bit more. That can be a powerful tool. How did you How do you do that? Was it locking in on and and I know this isn't everybody's sort of

way of being. So I'm uh uh respecting uh everybody who's listening and their sort of approaches. But for some people it helps to have a singular mission, whether it's your own personal quest, in your case, it sounds like you've landed on this quest to go to every country in the world.

You know, we when we've been to Chris Gillibo's events and he talks about quests. He wrote a whole book about it. And for some people that is the thing that that's like the anchor that can fuel the curiosity, I suppose. Maybe for some people it's more broad than that, just like wanting to travel or maybe take a year off or or something like that. Doesn't have to be some grandiose goal. And then also you boiling down the mission of just honing in on curiosity from like

For you, it sounds like that might be something that's been helpful for unlocking even more modalities of curiosity, let's call it. But what are some other ways through your conversations, through kind of your life experience that you've Yeah,'cause it sounds like you've thought about this quite a lot, the subject of curiosity. As it relates to travel specifically as well. Yeah, and I I think for me, I've had to go through a number of

steps to to reach this point even and it's still it's still ch evolving as we speak. It's always a messy journey. Right. Yeah. But I will say i it was really that Camp Indie, the first camp indie where uh we we had a small group. It was kind of in between two waves of the pandemic. And uh the first to clarify for people that was an event I yeah, I co founded, but it's no longer running. But it was like an adult summer camp basically, with some talks and

Different things happening. I just want so people have some context. Yeah. And I I met who later became my coach there. Yeah. And that's where the discussions with him led to me realizing that my mission and my core is curiosity because it was something that I didn't really think about in the same way before. I knew I was curious, but it wasn't like I went around saying, I'm Mr. Curiosity champion as a cause. Um and so it was working with the coach to get me to

kind of peel back my own layers and realize that was at the core of what I'm who I am and what I do. And then that helped open the the door to making it a little bit more uh mission driven so that I could say, okay, well what what do I want to do? I really want people to I want to encourage people, I want to promote the idea of curiosity through travel. Yeah. Because I I love to travel. I travel differently than other people do. I've been told this. To me, it's just the way I travel.

But when I'm traveling, whether it's solo or or with my partner or with someone else I just seem to have a different outlook on how I navigate where we're going. And that is something that I I needed to I needed to actually get other people to travel with me and tell me what I'm doing differently. And I don't know if it's something tangible as much as just the way I

uh move from place to place and point out things that that other people just wouldn't necessarily think of themselves. Can you give uh an example? For example, looking for murals in a side street in Mexico City. doesn't sound like rocket science and some people do look for things like that, but for me going maybe three blocks out of the way to find this little nestled in the side street alleyway that has all these colorful murals and I could see the other people

see the murals and say, Oh wow, I never would have found this if you hadn't showed us. And that told me that, okay, yeah, it's not brain surgery that I'm doing here, but it's getting It's taking things that I'm interested in, art. um architecture, things like that, and just incorporating that into what I do, looking at places to go eat local food, not chain restaurants. um looking for something unique, looking for cultural experiences that aren't the the most touristed things to do.

And of course there's some things that are going to be worth doing that are popular and that's okay. It's just I like to mix it up with other things that Are aren't necessarily getting the headlines. Yeah.

I really used Google. I mean it's simple, but I use Google a lot and and look at the little icons that they show for uh for different things and sometimes that another another thing like oh what's next to this or maybe I'll map a couple things out on Google Maps and then I'll physically go there and plan to go from point A to point B. But maybe on the way I discover some other things that aren't

that I didn't plan on. Or, you know, I'm crossing the street and I see some other mural across the street or uh maybe I hear um church bells and so I'm like, oh there's a church there. Let me go see if there's something interesting to l to find there. And occasionally there'll be an event, you know, a little street celebration, or maybe there's a whole street closed uh that that wasn't on the map. Yeah. And you know, those are the kinds of things that

if I can't plan that, at least I try to be open to it. And that's really the the point that I'm trying to make is that To be open to curiosity, to be open to serendipitous moments, you by definition, you can't plan for serendipity, but you can plan to be open to it without having a schedule that's so rigid that you're like at nine o'clock I'm doing this and at ten o'clock I'm doing this.

might be necessary in some cases, but for the most part that limits your ability to then be flexible to do something else. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the stuff that I've found in in my travels that have then reinforced to me that Uh when you're open to those serendipitous moments or to the things that you can't plan for, they tend to be the most memorable or the most cherished.

I mean you can go to Machu Picchu and it fits your vision of what it looks like. You had a great time, you've got some great pictures, but that other the other set of ruins that you really didn't even give two seconds thought of. It's just on the way, so okay, I'll check it out. And then you have a more memorable experience because on the way up to those ruins you you passed by a local woman selling some uh local uh fire water and then you hear another group of kids

speaking Spanish and you kind of understand a little Spanish if if you're like me. Um and you know, those are the kinds of examples of things that just stick in my mind. Sure. Even though of course the main focus of the trip in this case to Peru was about Mount Machu Picchu. Yeah. But it's those other things that tend to

stick in my mind because I don't have expectations set around the things I can't plan for. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, those are the best moments for sure, I think, or some of the most memorable at least. We'll get back to the interview in just a moment. Have you listened to the Atlas Obscura podcast? It takes listeners on an incredible audio journey four days a week. Experience an audio guide to the world's strange, incredible, and wondrous places. In under 15 minutes,

You'll be transported to a new hidden wonder, and along the way, you'll meet some fascinating people and hear their stories. Listen in every day, Monday through Thursday. Listen to Atlas Obscura, wherever you listen to podcasts. Now, back to the show.

It seems to me that you have been going to visit a bit more, let's say, off-the-beaten path countries semi-recently, and some countries that people might say or the average traveler might say are quote unquote dangerous or um or the media perception is that they're dangerous or they are dangerous and you need some help going through them in terms of a handler or, you know, going with a group or something like that. And part of the every country quest of course isn't

Uh I mean the easy part's coming to Norway, right? Here we are. It's a lovely day. you know, we have all the uh accoutrements of uh Western society and, you know, fairly easy country to visit and all that kind of stuff. But some of the other countries that are more challenging, it seems like to me that you have been visiting those places a bit more. Yeah. I mean I guess you can just share a couple of the places you've been or maybe the first one where you felt

like you were pushing your comfort zone as a traveler and why you decided to do that. And I would love to hear any advice you have for anybody listening who wants to visit some of these places that we're gonna talk about. Yeah, so that's been another evolution of mine. I've never really said in in my mind that I didn't want to go to anywhere, but it also didn't occur to me that I could go to so many places until I well like we mean that

Yeah, you're curious so y of course you want to go everywhere, but that you just assume some places were gonna be off limits. Yes, or you know, I I can't go because

it's too dangerous, because it's too expensive, because for, you know, whatever whatever reason. Um and there's a lot of places, so I uh but when I went to an event that I had heard about uh called the Extraordinary Travel Festival and then met people who have been to every country and who are going and they are from all over the world, from all walks of life, all different abilities, everything. I just felt like, oh, this like

it suddenly became uh accessible to me. Yeah. Even though I didn't really have anybody telling me I couldn't go. It was it was a a bit of a mindset thing. Sure. I just, you know, maybe it was also overwhelming because I hadn't been to as many as

Uh you know, haven't been to that many compared to how many countries there are. But you see them from all walks of life and they're just people too and they've done it and you can do it too.

uh you know, just being able to have a conversation with them and like they're fairly normal people and they just love to travel and fairly normal. Okay. Yeah. I mean I I s I I know I joke because I I think we all we all joke with each other about how, you know, anyone that wants to go to places like, you know, some some of the more d off the beaten track countries in Central and Western Africa

it's not your everyday vacation. And I think for a lot of us it's not necessarily a vacation, the way people use that term. But after going to that event And then uh meeting up with other travelers, which is also part of it. going alone, maybe to some of these places, is a little Mm intimidating. uh because I don't necessarily have as much travel experience to go to some of those really

uh challenging. Share a couple places where you felt that. So uh well I uh I jumped right in and I went to Ethiopia and Somalia and Eritrea which before would have been intimidating for sure. Somalia would I would never have thought of going. But Somali land, which is this unrecognized country in the north part of the the Horn of Africa. And that has a better reputation for for some trav for hardcore travelers to go to.

It's just out of the way. And I thought, Well, I could go there but even that was pushing it just because I didn't know anybody else outside of this travel community that had ever gone there and even heard of it. Sure. So I planned this trip in that region and then I found another traveler from Portugal who was interested in going, but he wanted to go to Mogadishu.

And I was thinking that's like a real dangerous place. There's actual threat of terrorism. Like a you know, that that's beyond just the quote unquote danger that you hear on the media. Uh but it took me a while to think about. I started doing a lot of research and I found that there were a lot more of these extreme travelers who were going there. It was a two day trip is usually the typical uh amount of time that people go there.

And I decided to to just take the risk. I mean, to be honest with you, it was Uh it was a it was a risk. I weighed the outcomes and I saw that I noticed that they had not had as many uh terrorist attacks there for a while and I felt comfortable enough to just go for it. And

you know, it was it was fine. Uh, that was my experience. That doesn't mean that there wasn't still a threat. There's been some incidences since then, but the overall risk And statistically of something happening when, you know, in the two days that you're there, there's not that many people that go there still. The if you compare the odds to just

getting your wallet stolen, walking down the street in your hometown is it's still there. So I think it's those kinds of things that I just put into perspective, but ultimately I just made a decision and decided to go.

do the thing. But the other places that I thought might be more dangerous were really not Eritrea isn't dangerous at all. It's just more challenging to get the visa perhaps. Uh there's not available internet, so you're going to be a little cut off. But I actually uh they had these old movie theaters that the Italian uh i in the nineteen uh thirties the Italians had it was an it old Italian colony. It was supposed to be Mussolini's uh A African

uh jewel uh back back in the day. And so they built all of these movie theaters that now are coffee shops. And people are just sitting and having coffee and talking. It was like going back to the forties and I loved it. And the food is really good because it's e like Ethiopian style food and Italian food there as well. So it's it's a really Uh I just found it to be a very pleasant experience, but uh

that was just one example of a place that just doesn't have a lot of information. Yeah. Uh if you Google it, there's some sometimes there's a phrase, the North Korea of Africa. And sure the government maybe has some uh uh Some people would not agree with how they are, but I try not to get into that when I travel because I'm not their government and I'm only visiting. I don't I try to reserve my judgments for for all of that and focus on the people because that's really where it's at.

and I had wonderful experiences with the people that I met there. Uh another example more recently was this year I went to both Cuba and to Syria and Lebanon. And I felt the need to go to those places just because of how things are changing, both in Syria, which just underwent a a a massive uh liberation in in December

And I felt like if I don't go soon, it's going to change even more. And I wanna s I wanted to see the history unfold in front of me. And it was that's what happened. It was amazing to see it. Uh I did go with a group because I felt a little out of my element again. And that was a for me that was a good call because with a guide who kind of knows the country and can tell you, oh, this area is not safe to go to, we're gonna

Skip that and go to another place. Sure. Um, and then I met other travelers who had been in this extreme travel community. and felt like we really connected as well. So now I feel like I have a lot more connections to potentially go to other countries. Or if I don't go with them, I know that they've been to some of these places like Iraq

or Afghanistan that if I when I go, then I can rely on some of the information and guides and tips and things like that. So it's this community aspect that that I've tapped into that has really opened the door for me Because now I feel like I'm not searching blind on the internet for information. I actually know people who have been to these places. I know people had that have been there recently. So'cause things change so fast that it's good to get on the ground information.

And at any given time there's somebody in this community in just about any given country in the world. Yeah. Yeah. That's uh well anybody listening if whether it's a goal like going to every country in the world or some other goal. I think that the community aspect, or like you said, there's one thing about reading a blog or listening to a podcast or reading something on Google, but getting around people and developing relationships and being consist consistently around people who are

maybe chasing similar goals or kind of in in the similar world, even if you're not part of that world yet, just getting around those people, I think, normalizes it. It makes you realize it's possible. And then you of course you have the back end stuff with the resources and the knowledge and stuff that comes with that w uh through the relationships and all the stuff you were just alluding to. But that initial normalization of something that seemed so ridiculous and impossible.

Sometimes that can take years, but even just putting yourself around those people Initially. You might uh like a stupid example, you might uh have a goal to have a YouTube station and have a million subscribers or something, which sounds insane and and you you have never filmed anything and you have zero subscribers, but you go to some place or an event And you get around other people doing it.

That's that can kick start the journey and the normalization in your head is so powerful because it it just opens things up in a in a way that's sometimes indefinable.

Yeah, and you know, this whole notion of going to every single country you know, I'm in my uh l lower fifties and trying to do the math and while I'm still f somewhat functional, it seems a little overwhelming to imagine, oh, that means I have to go to this many countries a year, you know, whatever. But then I think I've had a little bit of a little bit of a little bit

not I'm not focusing on on that. I'm not trying to race. I'm not trying to get beat anybody in a competition about it. It's more just I don't have any more limits of places I want to go and why not try to see every country because I grew up collecting stamps since I was six years old and I've I know all these places. I feel like I know them. In a way this is like a natural evolution to what you were exploring as a child in some ways. uh from from the stamps that I uh used to see as as a child.

to the current real situation of the country today. And yeah, there's some places that aren't I wouldn't go right now. Yeah. Or that we're not allowed to go right now. Um But things changed. When I was young, there were some countries that were completely open and no problem.

Not so much now. Same thing w the other way. There were places that you couldn't go that now are open. Sure. Uh I mean Sierra Leone for example is on my list, I'm hoping to get to next year because the a lot of the travelers that have been there have said it's just an amazing place, but you don't hear much about it and if you did know anything about it, most people have heard of the Blood Diamonds, that that was a movie that was popular uh in the, I don't know, nineties maybe, but um

So it's this it's the reputation of some of the countries that it's the only time that some people have ever heard of these places. So

that is all they have to associate with it. Yeah. And so that stays for a very long time. I think Mexico is another example of one that is much more familiar to people I don't know how many times when I we were going to Mexico last year

People would say, danger, you know, like they're gonna harvest your kidneys. Well you're based in the USA and unless you're going to the resorts, there can be a lot of that type of feedback. Right. And you know, there's There's definitely can any of those things happen? It it could happen. Anything could happen anywhere and I think just being I could harvest your kin kidneys right after this conversation.

I mean, y you just don't know. Anything can happen. I just don't Don't worry, I'm not gonna harvest your kidneys. If I did though, that would be th they could take this exact clip and that could be the beginning of the true crime series all about a

All right. Sorry. That got dark. That got dark. Don't worry. I'm just gonna feed you dinner. I'm not gonna harvest your kidneys. Um no, I think that's I know. We went off off off grid there. I appreciate your approach to the goal'cause it seems like it's well intentioned.

And, you know, I just to be honest and this is not anything personal against you, I'm always a bit skeptical of the every country people, even though I'm friends with some of them. And I admire the it as a goal and like hearing your approach and like our buddy Gunnar and you know, people I feel like there's

I don't uh I I'm not the moral arbiter of of travel and every country goals. I I I could say, Oh, there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. There's so much nuance to it. But you know, I do feel like there's probably a subset of this community where it's very ego driven and kind of like, I'm gonna put my feed on every c you know, and it's just like and then I hear, you know

some of the downsides to me, like I understand that situation where there's terrorism and, you know, typical trip is two days, but then in two days do you really

And this isn't me like calling you out or anything. This is just like a honest conversation. I know we were talking about it on the way over here, like the one of the downsides of kind of You know what tends to happen with a lot of people chasing the goal is they'll get to a region of the world where they see the countries are packed tight together and then like, oh, I have an opportunity to tick off five or six.

And then it becomes like this sort of thing that you can do. Now, to be fair, when I was like younger traveler, that's exactly what I want to do around Europe. I want to go to this country and that country. I want to explore them all. So I've been there. I get it. But then I see the big the ever country goal as such a multi year thing. Is do you ever question that? Like, is that a way you actually want to design your travels? Is that the best use of your

money and this is this question isn't at all an attack because I I like I already prefaced it. I think that you're have great intention and it comes through with the way you explain it. But this is more for like anybody listening if they're considering this. or if, you know, th some other bigger goal like that, like you do have to ask yourself the question unless you have unlimited resources financially. Is this the best way to travel and the best use of my money that again, it's not like

It's so hard to say that because it's not an um you're not like, oh I'm gonna invest a certain amount in travel so I can get this return back. That's not how it works.

And so that's a part of it too, in favor of, you know, you're just kind of having experiences. But yeah, what are your I just want to hear your thoughts on all that. Yeah, no, totally valid because I mean I think that's why it took me this long to you know finding. formally, I guess formally commit to the sure the goal. And and I'm also, you know, I can change my mind. There's no you know, I'm like I said, I'm not trying to be the first Or fastest or slowest or something. Um but I also realized

exactly what you said. I mean, like this trip. I mean, I'm only here in Norway for a few days and is that you know, have I done Norway? Well, I've lived in the Washington D C area for almost twenty five years and it it's embarrassing some of the stuff that I have not yet done. Sure. So have I just what I what I settled on is if I'm having meaningful experiences and again that's that's a very difficult to define term, but it's personal, right? This whole thing is personal.

But I also want people to realize I you know, I think of I think of the little kid that I was and how if I had ever dreamed of actually being able to go to any of those places, I just would have wanted to know that it It's possible. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not that no, you can't do that or that's not realistic. Sure, it might be

uh it might be very challenging. I don't have a I don't have a how right now. How is it actually going to happen because that's too overwhelming. It's like when you have a goal that's very big, you you don't want to think of the entire goal, you have to break it down into small pieces. And I see this as a lifelong project. I don't necessarily have a d a a a a date range of when I expect to be complete with it. Like I don't that's not what this is about. It's more just

No, I'm not going to limit myself. I'm going to attempt to keep going until and and and when I say until I'm out of country, so to speak, uh that doesn't mean that in between or even after that that of course I would still go back to other places. I would want to go back to I don't think there's any place that I've been that I would say, I'll never go back there. Yeah. I might choose to go to other places in favor

of going back to some other places. But there are so many things to see in the world and it's not just places, it's also time and and the place changes, you change as a person. technology changes the way we interact with the world. I was in Bangkok in uh in the fall and I hadn't been there for twenty four years.

Of course, it changed a lot in twenty four years. The last time I was in Bangkok I had a a camera where I had to develop film. Mm-hmm. I probably have more photos from the few days here in Norway. than I did on the entire eight months of Southeast Asia trip because I had film. So things like that change and I'm looking at this more as a just a new reframe of how I'm visualizing it makes me excited. I'm like, oh, I could go you know, there's all of these places to go to. I don't have to uh

I don't have to carve out this, this, and that, or you don't have to restrict yourself. Yeah. We'll get back to the interview in just a moment. Now, back to the show. I just wanted to play a little bit with that other side of it, but You know, the reality is when you're looking at this in this way where you're just talking about experiences

The whole thing is an experience, right? The experience of even um not just like the on the ground travel experience,'cause that's the one that's so evident and so Uh obvious, but the experience of embracing a big goal and opening yourself up for that, the life experience of that. I was picking on the trip with the two days thing just as an example. But the reality is the experience of

Going to a place that puts you completely out of your comfort zone, making that decision, doing it, all of that is part of the experience. It's the the decision making and the front ends. uh the w the takeaways on the back ends, not just the on the ground thing. So you could say, Well they only went to the you know, they only did this and that. It doesn't really matter because it you can't just

chunk out the experience without factoring in the rest of it. And this isn't a goal for everybody, but for some people it is. And I and to me it's really cool to hear your th thought process behind it. It sounds like for you it's been really thought out in terms of like how the travel experience will be, but you're also embracing, you know, you're getting the other aspects of this.

experience of of having this mission and taking on the goal and things like that, which involves growth and, you know, everything outside of the just the travel portion. And then there's the courts of some of the challenges you face in getting the

you know, finding the answers and getting the visas and all. And some people really enjoy that part of the process too, the problem solving aspect, because there's the logistical aspect and things like that. So there's just so many parts to this, but I just wanted to kind of

cover all sides. Yeah. I think we did. Well and yeah, I mean I think you you having the multi multi layered or multi faceted uh experiences And I've had each of these trips that I've taken this year has been a different type of trip. Uh and I've learned something different that may be a little m a little harder to identify, but I've maybe learned something about, oh

I really liked how what happened on this trip. I would like to try to do that more. Or I packed really well for this one trip and I don't Just packing is not one of my favorite things, but I did a pretty good job um on one of these trips and so I like you know, learning things along the way and then also being able to change it up because I might wanna slow travel. I might wanna spend an entire month in

you know, a smaller le off the beaten track kind of place. And just, you know Yeah. If you can if you if you're able to do that and let go of the goal of, you know, just like, oh, I could be you know, see I could have used this time to see this, this and this or you're just like, Yeah, if you're able to let that go, then you really Yeah, you can have your cake and eat it too, I guess. And I've traveled I mean I ha I I spent uh I guess it was four four and a half months

uh several years ago in uh Southeast uh or s uh Central Asia and I was in Tajikistan for a full month. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that was still one of the most adventurous like cr crazy in that every day was I did not know what the day had in store for me. And every day was almost something just you know, unexplainable that it would happen or just it was just so much uh

i it was like, okay, if I wanted if I wanted to say what trip made me feel the most alive, it might have been that one just because there was so much going on and uh there were a lot of different events that happened and now that could happen in a multi country trip too, but I definitely didn't feel that I wasted my time for a month in one place. Because that was such Uh defining uh moment in my travels that kinda made me think

differently about how I wanted to to travel. Okay. Um why? Wha w w was it one specific thing? Um a few subtle things, but one the one thing that always comes back to me is just because I was so remote I ended up meeting a lot of people, local people, and the language barrier was real. There wasn't a lot of communication. I didn't have Google Translate back then. Uh, but I had

uh I had just a few words in a couple languages that I would use and that was enough. And people communicate with a kind of an international body language offering you tea.

let it you know, allowing you to come into your home and smiles. And as simple and uh maybe undramatic as that sounds, it really made me think more about people you know, the experiences that I have meeting the local people than just, you know, seeing this amazing mountain or this this building, which are going to happen anyway, but it's the it's the people part that you can't really predict or uh plan to you can try to seek out

specific people, I suppose, but again, it's usually the those unexpected moments that that really capture you. And that's I think what made me think that that was what the most memorable part of the trip was was those interactions with all of these people who maybe had you know rarely seen uh uh travelers, uh at least then, and uh it just stuck with me and made me think I would like to see more of that. And and so having having had those experiences again in different ways in different countries

I just think it's gonna continue. I think that's again another bigger or ul ulterior uh motive of of this is to showcase that as much as we are different, most people in these countries, uh, you know, they just want to have a good life and they're mostly nice and they're mostly friendly and I found that. That's that's been true for me and I want to show that that is a reality for most people. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's interesting too how the goal can shape where you go in terms of the sense of urgency to get to a place before it may

close up or if it's going in a certain direction. That's another element to that we hadn't talked about. But I'm bringing it up because I wanted to ask you about places. I know that trip was a a a while ago. Maybe it's on your list. I just wanted to hear a few based on the places you've been A few of your, I don't want to say favorites because that's always hard, but you know, a few that you would uh recommend to listeners here who love to find.

some of the either up and coming or, you know, places that most people aren't thinking about that maybe that should get on their radar or um maybe it's a known place, but it's just so worth visiting that you know, you're gonna put it on your list. I just wanna hear a few of your destination recommendations.

Yeah, I last uh well, July, I was I came back from a month in southern Africa and I think that is one of the regions that even though people have maybe heard of Victoria Falls and the area around there, it's really one of the most bang for your buck kind of places, especially if uh if there's listeners that maybe have never been to Africa but it's been on their mind. I know a lot of people are interested, they're curious about going to Africa, but Africa has a lot of

It's just it's overwhelming for a lot of people. There's a lot of different Uh but Victoria Falls is such uh uh it's touristy but without being super touristy. It has some infrastructure in place that will allow people to feel comfortable when they get there. and within only a few hours you can go see wild animals in Botswana, you can go across into Zambia.

And of course there's the falls. There's a lot of different activities surrounded um you know, surrounding the falls and and the nature areas there. And it just has a lot uh of options for a first time I would say first time in Africa. Uh for some place a little bit more off the beaten track, also in the region is Malawi. And Malawi just Most people don't know too much about it, but it's a relatively small country that is mountainous. There's lots of rock

uh paintings from yeah thousands of years ago. There's a beautiful lake. There are a lot of authentic African experiences that you can have. So it's kind of a m a a a bit of a miniature version of of Africa that you can get uh an experience. And the people are so nice and very warm smiles and friendly and it's for at least for North American audiences, it's fairly affordable.

I would also say Cuba. And Cuba's an interesting one because a lot of People don't even um a lot of Americans don't realize that we are, at least right now, allowed to go, but there are some stipulations in going that you have to be aware of. uh you don't go as a tourist, you go to support the Cuban people. And really that just means not staying in hotels that are owned by the government, not using government services.

and actually trying to get to know the Cuban people. So I stayed at Airbnbs and those people who own the Airbnbs or Casa Particular, that's the name of the I like the the Airbnb equivalent. And they can arrange everything for you. So, and you're actually following the US government's mandate to uh support the people, especially if you bring supplies. Uh I brought a suitcase full of things I got from the dollar store and they were so grateful.

um I found someone to to help distribute that and I just felt like I was there not just to to learn more about Cuba, about the people, about what they've been through and what what's going on there, but also seeing some amazing countryside and Havana is a a really interesting city. And of course there's all the old cars. So it's really a

Uh uh and it's close to the US. So uh that's definitely one I would su suggest at least looking into. Um And there's uh there's certainly places like that are maybe not difficult or not far away, but they're underrated. I would say the the the smaller countries of Europe. I always like a a good micronation. Uh I had a great time in Liechtenstein. Most people just

would not even spend a full day there. But I I went several years ago, but I I decided to make it like a birthday trip and It was just a a a microcosm of uh a little European uh country and there's I was researching going'cause I was my I thought it'd be fun if my daughter and I walked across a country together. And you can do that there in some hours, I think. Yeah. Well there's there's plenty of uh places that I have not yet been to that I would love to

uh to get more people to go that are on my radar for probably for next year. El Salvador is one. Um Sierra Leone I mentioned. Uh I would say Eastern European countries. uh the Balkans, those are places that are still much m more affordable than Western Europe, but yet a lot of people are still not really sure. They don't necessarily know all the countries there in the Balkans.

But there's a lot more. It's changing a lot too. I think it's going to get more popular as Western Europe becomes more more expensive and also there they're kind of over touristed, so they're not wanting a lot of tourists to come, so Uh I hate promoting places so much that I don't want them to become another over touristed place. But I think that's really the point is the world is so big.

And yes, there's places to see that are worth seeing that is why they're touristy, but there's just so many other places to go that I think we can spread it out and it doesn't have to be overcrowded. Yeah.

Yeah, agreed. Kind of dovetails nicely into your new project. You mentioned trying to get some people together to go on some trips. Uh do you want to share where people can find more information about what you're putting together.

And then if you wanna talk about this National Geographic book that may or not may or may not be on shelves when you're listening to this, but these things are always available for either pre order or order depending on on when. But yeah, it's just yeah, you wanna let people know? Yeah, so I wanted to get people to see how I travel and and to be more curious. So I created these things called curiositrips and we started our first one uh in Mexico City.

So we're having another one in January, January fifteenth to the twentieth, twenty twenty six. But I'm also planning to have another one in Washington DC and I'm hoping to do a Cuba one. And but uh all of that information you can find on my website, johnthe traveller dot com, and I'll hope to open some more up you know in the coming year.

And yeah, I'm certainly open to suggestions from from anybody that that wants to go someplace that maybe uh wants to go with a bunch of curious travelers. Nice.

And in the book? And the book, yes. So I I took a chance and submitted uh National Geographic was looking for people that had actually been to uh some different countries. They were putting a book together of every country in the world. and they uh I answered a call for for that and I had been to a few and I I sent them and and they accepted for three. So I wrote three chapters in a book about every country in the world.

And that will be coming out in November. Wow. And so yeah, pre orders are available, but yeah, if it it might be out Uh it's called the Traveler's Atlas of the World. Congratulations, man. Exciting stuff. Yeah, we'll link up to all that. We are well, I'm gonna let you go so we can go have some dinner and hang out a bit.

But uh what a what a pleasure it has been to have you here recording this. Do you wanna share any final thoughts, a takeaway, a challenge, anything you want to give people uh on their way out of this one? always try to do one thing when you travel on your trip, just do one thing that's a little bit uh a little bit outside of your comfort zone, a little bit

makes you, mm, I don't know about that. Like trying a new food, trying to speak the language, taking the local tr transportation, things like that. Just start there. And keep keep doing that for your trips and then I I promise that will be a gateway to uh a richer, deeper experience.

not just for you, but for the people you're interacting with. Because I think one thing as travelers that we Uh we have a duty to share where we're from and our own personal humanity with the people that we're interacting with. And I don't know how many times I've met people. They ask where I'm from. I I always tell them I'm from the US.

I've never had anyone had any problems with that.'Cause I think a lot of Americans get a little uh nervous about that. I've had people have problems with it. And I back in the day. I I think it's possible. I'm not saying that nobody will, but I will say if you're honest and own it and and just try to showcase

Like you're not like maybe the stereotype that they're they're thinking of You're always sort of a mini ambassador for your country, whether you like it or not. And you know, just just be kind and be open. and try try something different. Try something new. And and also that means with where you go, what you do, and not just traveling in your everyday life. You know, mix up your routine, take the long way to get home from work.

try a new food, just do things like that that will help exercise your curiosity muscle. And then when you're ready for the next challenge, then it'll be a lot easier. Cool.

Thanks man. Pleasure to to know you and a pleasure to record this. Let's high five it out. Always can do that in person. And um we'll see you soon. Come back to Norway soon. Thank you. All right, buddy. There you have it. John McKenzie for taking the time to stop on over, have some dinner, record a podcast, and just hang out. It was really cool. Don't forget to check him out at johnthetraveler.com. And I want to leave you with this quote.

Of course, I had to hone in on curiosity, a topic that is near and dear to my heart in many ways, something I think about and something that I think is one of my main goals as a parent. and perhaps as a podcaster as well, to spark the curiosity, be the provider of the spark, and encourage the exploration. fan the flames, if you will. I think uh following your curiosity has led me to so many wonderful places in my own life. And although at times that can feel like following

a map where you you don't know where you're going to end up, of course. That is that is the joy of it. And I find that the more I follow my curiosity, the more it always leads me to good things. So, you know, even though we embark

into the unknown when we follow our curiosity at times. You know, let it take you where it's gonna take you. Perhaps if you're a visual thinker like me, you can just think of a map uh that you know, has some unknown destinations around it, but there's there's a line of you following your curiosity, and at the end of that line it just says good thing.

I feel like it always leads to good things. And if not, you are at least enjoying the journey, right? If you're following your curiosity, you're you're interested in something, you're at least In stimulated, perhaps intellectually, you're having fun, whatever it is, I mean you can't go wrong with following your curiosity. So let that one take you where it may today. I'll leave you with this quote from E. E. Cummings who said, Once we believe in We can risk it.

Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time. Peace and This podcast has been brought to you by Zero to Travel. Ideas and advice to make your travel dreams a reality. If you're feeling overwhelmed by climate headlines, I get it. But here's something different. It's a podcast about

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