¶ Intro
Just about every week here on YMYW, Joe and Big Al talk about converting your retirement savings to Roth accounts. But why? What’s the big deal? Today the “IRA guru” Ed Slott, CPA returns to Your Money, Your Wealth® in podcast number 526 to tell us why he calls the Roth IRA “the greatest account ever created.” Here’s a hint, it’s all about having tax-free income in retirement. Plus, where to prioritize saving for retirement? Jerry Tom in St. Louis wants to know. Are Christian and
Tiffany in Montana on track for retirement, and should they rebalance their ETFs? Should Frank in Lake Wobegon’s wife take her teachers’ salary over 9 months or 12 months? And finally, Jon thinks the target retirement withdrawal rates Joe and Big Al use to spitball are too low. We’ll see what they think. I’m Executive Producer Andi Last here with the hosts of Your Money, Your Wealth®, Joe Anderson, CFP® and Big Al Clopine, CPA, and our special guest, Ed Slott, CPA.
¶ Ed Slott, CPA on the Roth IRA, the Future of Taxes, the Death of the Stretch IRA, and Naming a Trust as Your Retirement Account Beneficiary
You know, we were just talking about how when we have a tax issue, we are much more likely to go to your website than the IRS website because your answers are written in English, clear and concise, understandable. And the IRS is not quite so much that way.
Well, they're rigid. They have to stick to the, you know, this is code section 40189 and this and that, and it's regs and this. And some people just wanna know, can I do this or not?
Right. Right. Yeah. So let's talk about, you and I have talked about Roth IRAs, Roth conversions. Yeah. I know you're very big proponent in that, but let's talk about, let's talk about what they are, what a Roth IRA is and why do people want to get money in the Roth?
Roth IRA is a miracle. It's the greatest account ever created because everything- it is, there's no question it's the greatest account to have. Because everything in there grows income tax-free for the rest of your life. And even under the new rules, under the SECURE Act, 10 years beyond to your beneficiaries. Imagine getting a statement in the mail and saying, this is my Roth IRA balance and this is all mine. I don't have to share it
with the government. I don't have to share it with Uncle Sam. I mean, it's unbelievable. So it's a great account. The only question is how much are you willing to pay to get it, right?
Right. Because I mean, and-
That's the catch.
That's the catch. And I think it was 1997 where it first came into play from Senator Roth.
Yes.
And you know way-
August 5th, ’97.
Oh, see. There you go.
Happened to be my birthday. I wasn't born that day, but that was my birthday.
That was your birthday. So, yeah. So thinking about Roth, I mean, you could do Roth-
I actually have the plaque up in my office, the Wall Street Journal. I happened to be in the article that day it was passed, but not 'cause of the Roth. Most people didn't even know that was in there. Yeah. Until it came out. Right. It was some homeowner provision that they made a tax benefit.
Right. Right, right, right. Oh, that's great. So thinking about the Roth IRA, I mean, you can do Roth contributions, which is kind of a smaller amount, or you can do a Roth provision in a 401(k) or 403(b) if your company or organization has it, you can get more in that way. But a Roth conversion, that's that-
That's the big one.
That's the big one. That's where you take money that you've already- you haven't paid tax on yet. You got a tax deduction, you know, 401(k), IRA, and you convert it. And I think a lot of people don't realize there's no limitations on conversions. There's limits on how much you can contribute to an IRA or a 401(k). Roth conversion, you can convert any amount you want. You don't have to be working. It's just what makes sense for you.
Right. The only limitation is your own pain threshold for how much tax you're willing to pay in one year.
Right. Right. Yeah, I think, that's well said. So let's talk about how should people be thinking about Roth conversions and tax brackets and how do you think about that?
Well, what you just hit is the fundamental principle to always paying the least amount in taxes, which is what everybody wants to do. And I call it one of my core always rules, and it's so simple to save money in taxes, always pay taxes at the lowest rates. That's it. Right? Right. If you can always get your money out, like out of your IRA tax-deferred accounts at the lowest rate, you'll always end up with more. And that's what this is moving money from an IRA,
a taxable tax-deferred account. Yeah. And paying tax. If you can get the money out at the low rates and convert to a Roth, you'll be a winner in almost every case. But. You have to use the brackets. And the brackets are great now. We have the lowest rates historically in history and giant brackets. A good at 12%, 22%, right? 24%. Sure hundreds of thousands of dollars can pass through those brackets and still be in these unbelievably low
historic rates. Everybody complains about taxes, but these are the good old days, 'cause I think taxes are gonna go up. I mean, I don't see any way they'll ever go down.
Right. And I think that's right. I mean, the past several years with the Tax cut and Jobs Act. Yeah. We've had these lower rates and they're set to sunset this year.
I don't think that's gonna happen.
Yeah. So I wanted to ask you about that.
No, I think it's-
Tell me why.
It's, well, because the congress, the senate, you know, house, Senate, the administration, they're all, they're all Republican, so it's gonna pass and that's great. They’ll extend the tax cuts probably for a few more years. I don't know how many more years. Yeah. But every year they extend these tax cuts, that's more years you can use these low brackets and take advantage and start bringing down this taxable IRA and bringing up tax-free accounts,
tax-free savings in your Roth. Plus to leave a Roth to beneficiaries. Imagine beneficiaries getting it and they don't have to pay tax on it for 10 years after death.
Have you ever heard this question or this statement from people, which is, I don't wanna put money in a Roth IRA, because- Yeah, they're just gonna tax it later someday. Just like Social Security. They told us they weren't gonna tax it. Now they tax it.
Yeah, I've heard it, but not as nice as you've said. I, that's the number one question I get at all these consumer programs. I did them around the country and they don't say it as nice as you, but mostly the version is, I talk about the Roth, just like we're talking they- somebody will always stand up and say, but can I trust the government to keep their word, that they won't tax it in the future? And these are people just like you said,
that can't let the whole Social Security thing go from 30 or 40 years ago. Right. You know, they said that would never be taxed and they lied and I don't trust them.
Right, right.
So the question is, can I trust the government to keep its word that Roth IRAs will always be income tax-free, and the answer is absolutely not. You can't trust the government as far as you can throw them. And as a CPA, we have an old saying, tax laws are written in pencil, right? And they change. But I'm gonna tell you a secret here, just between us. Okay. You know what Benjamin Franklin said about secrets?
Let's hear.
3 people can keep a secret if two of them are dead.
Got it. Okay.
So here's the secret. Lucky for all of us. I'll say it quietly. Okay. Lucky for all of us. Congress are the worst financial planners on earth. They're so shortsighted. And that works to our favor. Yeah. They secretly- don't say it too loud- Love. Love, love, addicted to love- Roth IRAs. Why? Because they're so shortsighted. They only look at the money that comes in upfront.
They'd look at what they can see right in front of 'em.
The budgets, the 10 years, the two-year budget cycles, right? The only money that can get into a Roth is already taxed money. And that's why since the Roth were created and the big shift started in 2010. If you remember before 2010, you couldn't convert to a Roth IRA if your income exceeded $100,000.
That's right.
Back then, just like now, Congress needed money and they eliminated that provision and that brought in the floodgates of money, including mine. I converted everything then because they gave people the deal of the century. Right? Do you remember that deal?
Yeah. You could pay the tax over 4 years.
No, two year. That was the original call.
Oh, that was the original deal.
I converted everything. Yeah. A matter of fact, just in a session to the American College here a few hours ago, I said to the group of advisors, I guess I didn't remember. I said, I converted everything. I begged you guys to take that deal when you were at my seminars.
Right.
I took my own advice. I converted everything in 2010 and I threw out to the group, how much tax did I pay? And some people say, well, you didn't tell us the rates and this, I paid nothing. Zero. It was a deal of the century. And they're thinking, how did I miss this?
Right.
It was, the deal was you paid nothing. In 2010. Yeah. Half and 11 and half and 12. That's right. Yeah. But in essence, the government gave everyone an interest free loan to build a tax-free savings account. Right. It was unbelievable. So, and obviously I didn't know about the, can you imagine the growth in that Roth from 2010 to where we are now?
Right. Right. 15 years later.
So Congress saw the boatload of money that came in and they said, Ooh, this is good. Not realizing, you know, they're not getting any of that revenue ever again. Yeah. So then they kept expanding Roth 401(k)s. Yeah. And then in SECURE 2.0. They went Rothamania crazy. SEP Roth IRAs, simple Roth IRAs, 529 to Roth, matching contribution Roth, catch up contribution Roth. Roth. Roth. Because they wanted the money up front. They love Roth
IRAs 'cause they're so shortsighted. So sure. I would say don't worry about it. Because Congress, they may trim around the edges, but if they do anything that kills the golden goose. Yeah. There goes their revenue source that they're counting on to fund every tax bill.
Do you think someday some congress down the road will figure this out and realize we're in trouble.
No, they keep kicking the can down the road, and I still believe they're gonna have to because as a CPA and accountant, I have to believe in math. And I look at these deficit and debt levels. I don't even know what the debt is. It was last I saw $38, $39 trillion. All I know is if you have to round up to the nearest trillion, that's a problem.
It's a problem. Right?
Yeah. So we have the highest debt levels ever. The lowest revenue from taxes ever. Yeah. I don't know how long this can go on before they're going to lower the boom and tax people on money in their IRAs. Right. I think tax-deferred accounts, IRAs, 401(k)s are a sitting ducks for future tax increases. They're the low hanging fruit for Congress. Right. And I don't want to have a large IRA when the music stops on this stuff.
You know, you think about money in a IRA, 401(k), and it hasn't been taxed yet. Yeah, and you think about the Roth IRA, which they've already paid taxes on it, but then it's like, what's gonna happen in the future and the way things are going, eventually- I would tend to agree with you. Eventually it seems like tax rates have to come up because how do we afford everything we're trying to pay for?
I don't know how it's possible. And if tax rates do go up, you're a big winner with the Roth, right? That's even if they stay the same, so then it's a wash. Right? And the odds of tax rates going down are nil. So the Roth is just a big bet on where we are today, tax rates today versus tax rates in the future, and I think that's a pretty good bet. Imagine you were making a bet like, in Las Vegas or something,
a blackjack, right? And the dealer showed you all his cards. That's a pretty good bet.
Yeah, that's a pretty good bet. So, okay, so let's pivot a little bit. Yeah. Let's talk about the SECURE Act. Okay. 2.0. And the death of the Stretch IRA for most people, right? I mean, there's a 10-year period and a few people can still do it, but most can't, so they've gotta get the money out within 10 years. And what are, how do you think about that? What, strategies or what, how do you, what do you, how do you tell people to plan for that?
That was a game changer, 'cause the plans people had before that, and when I was doing programs all, all over the country before the SECURE Act, I said, oh, the Stretch IRAs are great because they can go out 30, 40, 50 years. And you're talking about a massive deferral. Yeah. That all ended. Why? Congress needed money. Right. Here's a little something, another secret about Congress. Okay. After studying tax law for over 40 years, one thing I've known- I've noticed is
constant. Whenever congress names a tax law, you can almost bet, almost always bet that whatever they name it, it will do exactly the opposite. So when I heard the SECURE Act is coming, I said to myself, hold onto your wallets. And sure enough, it was a money grab. They needed revenue. So they said, Nope, we're not waiting 30, 40, 50 years. We'll wait 10 years at most. So now they've closed the window. They pushed in the window when all this buildup in tax deferred IRAs and 401(k)s
have to come out. And it's going to come out like a fire hydrant and massive tax increases for people. Right? So that's what made IRAs and 401(k)s, tax-deferred accounts, that downgraded those as a vehicle for wealth transfer or estate planning, especially to the beneficiaries who are going to get hit by the end of the 10th year after death. So the Stretch IRA, for most people, beneficiaries is no more. So that means if you are listening or watching to this, or listening to
this or watching this, and you had a plan before 2020 when the SECURE Act took effect. That plan probably doesn't work anymore. Right. It behooves you to look at your plan, work with an advisor, financial advisor that is- has a specialized knowledge because you need an advisor that knows how to navigate this and make the changes and lets you know where the problems are, why your
current plan doesn't work, and what alternatives are available. And the alternatives we've talked about things like Roth IRAs, bringing down the IRA balance while tax rates are on sale in effect.
Yeah, good point.
And moving to other tax-free vehicles like life insurance. That’s a good choice. Anything will be better than the taxable IRA.
Yeah, because it's- you gotta pay the tax on it one- one way, no way around it.
It’s not if but when.
You know? And I think a lot of people don't realize the Roth IRA, it still follows that 10-year rule. Yeah. You gotta have the money out in 10 years, but it's tax-free. Yeah. It's not pushing kids up into higher brackets. Right. And when we talk about kids, we always say with the kids, but the inheritors the beneficiaries. They're in their 50s. Yeah. Right.
And they may be in their own highest earnings years.
Good point.
Last thing they need to inherit, not like it's a horrible thing. Oh, I inherited money, you know, I worked so hard for it, you know?
Right, right, right.
But still, the worst thing could be is to inherit a taxable account that gets blasted with taxes in that 10th year after death. Right. With a Roth, they don't have to touch it to the end of the last day of the 10th year after death. Growing, accumulating and compounding income tax-free for them.
Yeah. I wanna pivot just a little bit for your IRA.
That's a second pivot. Yeah, that's two pivots.
Okay. I get two per interview, right?
Yeah.
So, let's talk about beneficiary designations. Yeah. A lot of people like to name their trust, which isn't necessarily a great idea.
Well, no, there is a reason to name a trust, you know, and that's a question I get. I got it at the last seminar I just did here. Yeah. Advisors always want to know 'cause their clients want to know. When should I name a trust as my IRA beneficiary? My answer is, when do you name a trust? When you don't trust. Because if you trusted them, you wouldn't need a trust. They should have called it a don't trust, right? That's when you name a trust,
when you don't trust, right? When you want post death control, and that's a big issue for a lot of clients I've dealt with over the years. They have a large IRA, $2,000,000, $3,000,000. I remember a client telling me years ago, we've got $3,000,000 in an IRA, I don't even need it. I want my kids to get it. Sure. I my grandkids, but I don't want them blowing it. I work too hard for this money, right? I want to control this after
death. So they don't squander it. They're always worried about what the kids will do, bankruptcy, lawsuits, divorce. They're worried about managing money, everything. But the number one fear I used to get from clients is they would say, it's not my kids I worry about, it's the ones they marry.
Oh right.
And that was a big concern. I had all this money and it may end up to going to some daughter-in-law, son-in-law I never even met.
Right.
And they name a trust. But now because of the SECURE Act, I would never leave an IRA to a trust 'cause such a horrible asset. And trust tax rates are the highest in the land. Sure. The better option, you still may need a trust if you want that control. Yeah. So I'm not saying trust are bad, trusts have a use. It's just IRAs are now a horrible asset. To a disaster to leave to a trust. Better option. If you have a large IRA and you're in that situation I just said,
and you want control after death. Better option is bite the bullet, convert that IRA to a Roth IRA, and leave the Roth to the trust. That eliminates all the trust taxes, and you can get the post death control and protection that you want.
That's great advice. Now, would you do that through your living trust or would this be a separate IRA trust?
No, it doesn't- Well, with the Roth it could be a separate IRA trust. But what's even better than, and it's easy with the Roth because there's almost no rules. All that has to happen. Remember, there's no income tax. And there's no RMDs in the years one through 9 of a 10 year term. Sure. So all that you have to know is that at the end of the 10 years, the money either stays in the trust, right? It’s not taxed.
Yes.
Or it goes out to the beneficiary, or it's doled out according to how you want your beneficiaries to get it. Yeah. So it's very easy to name, trust as, a Roth IRA beneficiary. It's very complicated. It was before with the IRAs, but we put up with that because we had the Stretch IRA. Sure. Now the IRA has no more redeeming qualities, so we don't need that anymore.
Right, right.
It's like in baseball, the starting baseball season now, you could have a guy that hits a lot of home runs and all at the right time, you know, in the World Series.
Yeah. Right.
Playoffs. You'll love that guy.
Clutch hitter.
Except nobody likes him. He's a problem. He's in every scandal. But you put up with him because he hits home runs. Right. If he stopped hitting home runs, you get rid of him.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's an IRA. Yeah. There's no more redeeming qualities. It used to work, now it doesn't. So, let's move on. But the, probably the best asset to leave to a trust when you want that control is life insurance because it doesn't even have the rules that Roth IRAs do, right? You can customize your own plan so you could take money down out of your IRA, pay the tax. Now, I wouldn't do this before 59 and a half 'cause there's a penalty situation. Pay the tax,
get it out at low rates. Remember, always pay taxes at the lowest rate. Sure. So you're getting rid of this problem. The IRA, putting the money, and I'm talking about permanent cash value life insurance and grows tax-free. Right. And that's the best asset if you still need to control it for your kids. You can have any provision you want. You don't even have to worry about income taxes. You don't have to worry who the beneficiaries are, what categories there,
who are the remainder beneficiaries. There's no tax you can actually get the plan you want. You don't have to go through all these tax landmines and obstacle course of rules.
Right. Wow. You are a wealth of information as always. You've given us a lot to think about, Ed. I really appreci-
Oh, great to be here.
Appreciate chatting with you and you've taken the time.
Okay, thanks.
Awesome. Thank you.
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Let's go. Jerry Tom. Jerry Tom, instead of Tom and Jerry.
¶ Where to Prioritize Saving for Retirement? (Jerry Tom, St. Louis)
That's what it said. I suppose there's a chance that's really his name, but-
Jerry Tom. All right. “Hello. I've been listening for about a year and I love the show.” Usually people last about a month. Al: If someone lasts a year, we know they're, they must be a fan. It's like, yeah, all these emails. I come, I've been, I just caught your show. I love it. And then like two months later, it's like, no.
I hear from people now who say, I'm just in it for the hang. I just wanna like hang out with you guys and listen to the silliness.
Got it.
Just can't handle it anymore. Yep. Yeah.
Too painful
Because I'm snarky or whatever. What's that? What's the word?
Yeah. Snarky is one of them, right?
Yeah. Snarky. Snarky is a good one.
Okay. Whatever. “Hello. I've been listening for about a year and I love the show. Hope- hoping to bring down at the median age a little bit here, I'm 35, wife's 33, live in St. Louis and have two children under the age of 5.”
Okay.
Okay. “I enjoy light beer on the golf course and enjoy a little margarita on the rocks.” Okay. Got something in common here. Jerry Tom.
That sounds a little like you.
Yeah.
Except he's a bit younger.
Let's, oh no, he's like a pitching wedge away.
Pitching wedge.
Yeah. You're a driver for sure.
Oh, you're at least a hybrid.
It's definitely a wedge.
It's not a wedge. I'll give you a six iron.
Oh, wow. The way you hit it.
Oh boy.
“Our tendancy... plan is to buy a couple new cars, preferably a little Toyota or Honda in the cash and drive them for about 10 years. We currently have household income around $300,000. We peaked at $350,000 last year. We are top earners in our relative professions so that we do not expect any real increases in wages in the future. We believe we have been fortunate to make what we do and save what we have in the recent years. See below for our current savings.
Here's a primary question, though. Been working towards a pretty even distribution 3 bucket strategy. Believing that this may actually be the height of our earning potential in taxation, would it be reasonable to be contributing some of our income to pre-tax? Hope to retire around 55 to 60, so plenty of room for Roth conversions. Current sell options on the side pretty conservatively and would hope to continue that throughout working years
into retirement.” So he's selling options, current sell options. On the side. So he's selling options on the side. Pretty conservatively- selling options. Is that like puts?
That's- could be.
I don't know. Selling options in conservatively-
Well, usually doesn't go together, but if you, if it's covered, maybe, you know, I don't know.
Yeah, I know, I got it. “The only debt we have is $250,000 left on a mortgage with 2.875% interest rate. It's worth about $550,000. We will have a healthy amount of Social Security, but not planning on it. Wanna spend $10,000 a month in today's dollars. Second question.” Okay. What's the first question, bro?
Well, he wanted, so I think what he's asking, he wants to know where to save. He's got tax-deferred, tax-free and taxable. Okay. He's doing a third, a third, a third. Is that right?
So he's got $250,000 in pre-tax. He's got $300,000 in Roth.
Yeah.
He's got $331,000 in post-tax or a brokerage account. Yep. And another $85,000 in 529 plans. Okay. Yep. So should he go pre-tax. Alright. “Second question is, okay, do we have some opportunity to save less going forward? Been investing $100,000, $150,000 in the last 3 years or so.” Yeah.
Okay. that's how you have $900,000 at age 35.
That's giant.
It's. Unheard. It's unheard of. Jerry Tom.
Oh god, geez, Jerry Tom, maybe stop drinking the light beer and go to something heavier. “Planning to reduce savings, most likely to an average of only $80,000.”
Really? Is that all you can work out?
Oh, conservatively, you know?
Yeah.
All right. “Max out Roths and both 401(k), 403(b), $500 a month into Acorns account that is likely to pay cash for the cars, not considered in retirement savings, and then $250,000 a month upon 529 plans since we have a pretty good start. Any access savings is funneled in the brokerage where I sell options.” Okay. So we're selling options in this brokerage account?
Yep. Yep.
Why are you selling options at 31 years old in a brokerage account? I would just go hog wild.
Yeah, I wouldn't do that either myself, 'cause-
I mean, is he trying to create income? But anyway, I don't know if he likes it, if he's-
Yeah, maybe that's fun with it. Maybe he does well.
Maybe he enjoys it.
But I mean, how many times have you heard of stories where people sell options and end up losing a lot of money?
Yeah, but I mean, it depends on the risk. Yeah. I don't mind taking on more risk at 31, when you're saving $150,000, I mean, this is a person that can make up for some mistakes here.
That's true.
Most people. Right. and you're right, you're bringing the median age down a bit. Most of the listeners don't have the time or don't have $150,000 a year that they could replentish their nest egg, right? “Should I go pre-tax?” The answer is, in my opinion, no. I would continue to jam Roth all day every day, just because you're- You're not going to remember the tax savings that you have today. You're gonna remember how much money that you
have in tax-free, when you need the money, when you wanna spend the money. I know Al's gonna say pre-tax because of the income that you're in. But I would say Roth, it's like-
Yeah, I'm not, I won't necessarily say, I think I agree with you and, I'll say another reason why. It's because you're in the 24% bracket right now, which is a great bracket. And will this be around forever? Probably not, right? So yeah, I get the theory right. You do the con, you have pre-tax, you get a tax deduction. You Roth conversions when you're retired and making less money. You're saving so much money, you may have more income than you think when
you retire and you're in a low bracket right now. So I would go all Roth right now as well.
You got $1,000,000 at 35 years old. He wants retired 50, or let's say 50 to 55. Yeah, right? Yeah. Hope to retire around 55 or 60. Yeah. So 35, that goes to 45. That $1,000,000 is now $2,000,000. If he doesn't save another dime.
Yeah, but he's saving-
$150,000 a year. Can I tone that down and go to $80,000?
Maybe only $80,000. So. He's gonna have millions. Of course. Which is gonna produce income.
You're right. And it's all because all that extra, there's only so much money that you can put in retirement accounts. Most of that money's gonna go into his brokerage account anyway.
Right, right.
I'd be careful with the option strategy though. How much income is that spitting out or is he taking, is he hedging this. Is he leveraging this? I would like to know maybe a little bit more, or how much of that is he doing? Because you wanna be a little bit more tax sensitive as this thing continues to build and grow for you. But I would go Roth. At 31 making that- congratulations on the diligence that you're doing in regards
to savings. He's gonna buy a Toyota or a Honda. He probably drinks Bush light.
Yep. Probably. And that, that Toyota's gonna run for 200,000 miles, at least.
Some of the cheapest beer out there on the golf course that he's probably playing a muni.
Yep. PBR maybe.
Yeah. Little PB Army. Yeah. I don't know if this is pretty phenomenal stuff here. Yeah. Yeah. Jerry Tom, I just don't understand the name and I just don't understand the option strategy, but besides that, everything's, yeah. Okay. In my book.
I think I'm kind of with you. I guess if Jerry Tom were my son, I would probably say be careful on the options. They can be tricky.
Okay. Let's, let's keep a-pluggin'.
¶ Are We on Track for Retirement? Should We Rebalance Our ETFs? (Christian & Tiffany, Montana)
Okay.
Alright. “Hello Andi, Al, Joe. I need your help in the form of a big soggy spitball.” Okay? Okay, here we go. “I'm a 56-year-old dentist and my wife is 37. We live in Montana with 3 kids who are 4, 8, and 9.” Man, 56 and you got a 4, 8, and 9.
That's ringing a bell?
Little bit. Little bit.
I will mention the fact that the subject line on his email was ‘Joe should relate.’
Oh, yeah, I see. Yep.
Oh, he's-
Now I know you're, I know you're a bit younger, but I think you're in the same zip code there. Joe; Yeah, I could be. That's a, that's another wedge. Yeah. I'll give you a 60 on that one.
Oh man, Montana. I gotta get to Montana, man. I'm just like-
Oh, you haven't been?
All I watch is like Yellowstone and then-
Oh yeah.
What's that? 1821?
Oh yeah. I, I love Glacier National Park. That's a great place.
I don't think I would go there, but-
You would find a bar? A honky tonk bar?
No, I’d find a nice little tavern-
Next to the golf course?
I'd go a little horseback ride maybe.
There you go.
Okay. So let's go here. “I drive a 2000 Chevy Silverado half ton-“ of course, you’re in Montana “- which I've owned for 25 years, and plan on still driving it until I box out.”
Box out. Wow. Oh boy. Okay.
“Or my family strips me from my driving privileges.” Bro. Come on Chris, you're 56. You're not 86. Box out.
That, that came up on, the show, several episodes ago. Somebody said that, and I think, it has kind of resonated with the listeners 'cause a few people have used it since.
Okay. Ah, okay. Yeah.
As they go out in a pine box, you know.
Oh, I'm gonna box out.
You know, my, my neighbor who's not very diligent on landscaping projects, he dug like three holes in the front yard, you know, between the two houses. Are you one of those neighbors you called the HOA on 'em? No, I haven't, but, this reminds me of that because I'm, I went over there, I saw this pile of dirt. It's been there for two weeks, which is not uncommon. And, anyway, I go over there and there's 3 little boxes with pet's names.
Oh boy.
So I guess that's gonna be the graveyard.
Yeah. Well-
So, so far they're above ground.
Got it. Well he's sensitive. He doesn't wanna put him in yet.
Probably not. Yeah, misses ‘em.
Thanks for that story.
I thought that would add a lot of color.
That was terrible. Oh God. “My wife drives a 2019 Suburban. She's the one with the common sense and the person you actually wanna be hanging out with at any sort of social engagement. My beverage of choice is a refreshing Hamms.” Oh man. This guy's from Montana for sure.
Do you like Hamms, Joe?
I haven't had a Hamms in years, but yes, in Montana I would drink a Hamms.
Yeah, I think I would too.
Man, if it's cold-
If it's cold, Joe's gonna drink it.
Yeah. I mean there's, yeah. I would much rather have a Hamms than a hazy IPA or all the other kind of-
Yu're not much for the heavier stuff. Right.
No way. Yeah. “Or any other species of beer for that matter. And I would never refuse an old fashioned, regardless of time of day unless I'm working of course.” Yeah. Okay. Love this guy. Yeah.
You can relate, can't you?
I can. “Tiffany will and does drink just about any form of alcohol and any of us have ever heard of, she's trouble in the very best way imaginable. Okay. I've been listening to your podcast for the past year, and I'm a big fan. All right. Figuratively speaking, I'm only 5’ 10” and 170 pounds.” Man.
Okay.
Just built like a brick (beep) house. Strong. I mean, he's got that big ass truck. He's drinking Hamms.
Yes.
Man. Little day drinking on Saturday, old fashioned right at 8:30 in the morning. Start your day.
Right.
“I can't tell you how much I appreciate your entertaining delivery of an absolute treasure chest of information.” Oh, alright.
Cool. Joe; He's a good writer too. Yep.
Because it comes with so many compliments.
And you can, and you can read it.
I can.
It's just, it's rolling off your tongue.
I’m cruising today. “I'm planning to work till age 70. While my wife will work until age 59, we should be able to comfortably retire at two thirds or less of our current income. Since we will have our mortgage paid off in 6 years, it will no longer be contributing such a high percentage of our income into the retirement investments once we are no longer working. We also plan on selling our home downsizing considerably. Once all the kids are off
to college and beyond. The kids will be off the household payroll by then.” Alright. By, alright. Well by the time he retires at 70. Okay. “I was late to the game getting started on my investment portfolio and I'm trying to play a little catch up. Our household income is just over $300,000 and we're investing $150,000 a year.” Jesus.
Another one.
Back-to-back. “Maxing out our Roth 401(k) plans at work, $31,000 for me because I'm old, and $23,500 for my wife, plus our corporate match of 4%. We are putting the rest in the brokerage account. We have 529 accounts for each of our children already funded to the level that we should cover the cost of college. We're debt free aside from our house, which is valued at $1,000,000 and have $400,000 left on the mortgage at 2% interest, and I'm in no rush to accelerate those payments.”
All right. “We have about $100,000 in emergency fund held in a high interest savings account that's paying 4.35%. I own my dental practice outright. Will be selling it as I near retirement, but we are not figuring that sale price into our calculation. I'll have Social Security around $60,000 starting at age 70. Between our Roth 401(k)s and our brokerage account, we have just over $500,000 currently invested 80% of our portfolios and concentrating in 6 ETFs. The
remaining 20% is split between 10% Bitcoin and 10% individual stocks.” Okay. “Current breakdown of holdings by percentage of the portfolio.” Okay. So we got, all right. That's kind of-
q, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 different positions.
Yep. Okay. So-
The biggest one is S&P 500, ETF.
He's got the Triple Qs. Yep. Got some- All right. “Do you think that our savings pace is significant rate to hit our goal by retirement? Would you consider rebalancing these ETFs, adding a different ETF, or dropping any of the ETFs? Thanks so much for your insight and your awesome podcast.” Okay, let's do some math here. He's saving $150,000 a year. He has $500,000 currently.
Yeah, I already did the math. So, I did 14 years at 6% with those numbers you just gave me. Ends up with $4,300,000.
Yep.
So, I just, 'cause I don't know what he's spending right now. I just took 4% of that. I got-
Let's say he makes $300,000, he's saving $150,000. That gives $150,000- It's $100,000, $125,000?
Yeah. Right. Yeah, it, exactly. So, but I worked, I did it this way. I said, well, what could you spend at 70, 4% of $4,300,000 is $172,000. His Social Security at 2%, would be $80,000, so $250,000. Now that was future dollars. If I take that back to current dollars at a 3% inflation rate, I get $165,000. I think you're right. I think he's spending about $125,000. So this looks very good. Very good.
Yep.
And that's not including the dental practice or wife’s Social Security. So anyway-
Yeah, I think, I don't know. Would you consider rebalancing the ETFs? Sure. there, there's a little bit of overlap here. We don't really want to get into specific recommendations in regards to- But it's all Vanguard Funds, for the most part. Triple Q?
Yeah. Mostly. Yeah. And, I don't, know these funds by name. I mean, except for VOO, that's the S&P 500. You wanna make sure you have some international, right?
VGT. Okay. He's got that.
Maybe that's what GARP is.
I don't know what's, Garp? G A R P? I don't know what that is.
I don't either.
One moment, please.
Okay.
iShares. MSCI USA quality Garp ETF.
Okay. No, you're fine.
Yeah. So that's some international, okay.
Yeah, I, like the allocation. Just keep rebalancing as ya are. Basically a really good allocation, I think for Christian, 'cause he's saving a bunch of money. He's got 16 years. I would probably have 80% in the market, 20% in bonds. And I would slowly, over the next 16 years kind of get that allocation to probably 60% stocks, 40% bonds.
Yeah, that sounds good. Maybe, up to a third international, two thirds domestic, or whatever you're comfortable with.
Yep. Right. So, and then if you wanna play with the different ETFs, I like having multiple funds so that you can rebalance.
I do too.
Because I mean, if you take a look right now, I mean. I guess date stamp this, what are, we're at the end of March. Yeah, this probably won't air till April, but look at how much, like international has outperformed US, right? Especially like on the small value side of that, right? That has been underperforming forever.
For more than a decade.
And so you wanna have a little bit in each, diversification will always work. It's just painful as you're going through it because there's gonna be a period of time where it doesn't necessarily work, and then all of a sudden it works. And then you'd look back at the 10 years at the differentials and it's like, oh, wow- It actually does work. You have to be disciplined in the overall strategy. I think, rebalancing, not timing markets. Keep it fully invested. Keep plugging away. Keep
saving what you're saving and keep having fun, man. That's, that's what I would do.
Yeah, it's looking good.
Yeah. I gotta, I. I gotta plan a trip out to Montana. I'm gonna have some Hamms.
Hamms?
And then, yeah, maybe a little old fashioned with Christian and Tiffany. Bring the wife and kids out.
Oh, I think so.
Yeah.
Yeah. You'll have a lot in common.
Yeah. The kids could-
What do you think of the 10% Bitcoin?
I don't care. I don't like 10%. I probably like 2%.
Yeah, I would probably tone that down too, but I don't mind some.
Yeah. 10% Bitcoin, 10% in international stocks. I don't know. I would not put any, well, yeah, I don't know. I don't want to tell him to do anything in, in regards to the investment because it tell him-
- it's gonna triple.
-and then he is like, you're a jackass, you're not coming to Montana.
He will sell out and then he'll double.
I mean, yeah, exactly. Well, I don't know if I like 10%. Okay, I'll go 5% and then it triples and it's like, you know what? I could have had all of this money.
I should have done 25%. I knew it.
If I just wouldn't have listened to this stupid show.
¶ Watch Don't Let These 10 Risks Break Your Retirement on YMYW TV, Calculate Your Free Financial Blueprint
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Blueprint. If you’ve got money questions or want your own retirement spitball, click or tap Ask Joe and Big Al in the episode description and send us an email or a voice message, like this one:
¶ Is It Better to Take Teachers' Salary Over 9 Months or 12? (Frank, Lake Wobegon - voice)
“Hello Joe, Big Al and Andi. This is Frank from Lake Wobegon. It's been a couple of years since I called in. I had a question a few years ago, so I think it's time. I've got a specific question about the teaching profession and savings. My car is, I upgraded from a 2010 Ford Ranger to a 2022 Ford Maverick. If you know anything about Mavericks, it's quite the upgrade. My drink of choice is a Northeast. That has to do with bead from Minnesota and Joe can probably relate to
that. Our pets are all on their last legs as we're getting into our 60s, but we've got a cat and we’ve got a Maltese, we named Thor. He weighs all of 12 pounds and I got to name him. So my question is, and this, you might have to do a little math pre on this, but you know, my wife has been taking her salary over 12 months. You know, even though teachers don't work in the summertime. I would say that, in my experience, most teachers take their salary over 12 months, so they have that regular
check in June, July, and August. Well, now that I've retired and having time to think too much about finances, I am suggesting, and she's on board with this, that we take her check over the 9 months that she's actually working January through May and then September, throughout December. Because when we move to just 9 months of checks, we're gonna definitely get, you know, a little nice little chunk, bigger every month. And what we don't spend, we're gonna move that over
to our Fidelity brokerages account and make sure we're getting at least 4%. So we're gonna make a couple hundred bucks free just by doing this little change. And in my mind, teachers who take their pay over 12 months are actually giving their school district an interest free loan. So I’d like your thoughts on that. I appreciate your shows. I binged them all and now I'm that I’m retired when I'm riding my bike on the trail I listen every week, so take care and keep up the good work.”
Alright, Frank.
Okay. You know, when Robbie was a teacher, he took it over 12 months.
Most teachers do.
Yeah. Yeah.
If I was a teacher-
Would you?
I think so.
Yeah. Me too.
I mean, I would probably go-
You know, the problem is, you say that and what Frank said is true, you could make some extra money. But then you have to have the discipline not to overspend. And that's, and teachers are usually pretty good at that. But nevertheless, if the money's in the account, it's a little, it can be a little tricky.
Well, I think it's the same as when people get refunds on their taxes. And so because they're withholding too much and then they every, well, this is my vacation fund, or hey, we are gonna go travel with this. I'd like to get that big check at the end of the year. It's the same kind of concept. It's like it's a forced savings for them. Yeah. But you're given the IRS and interest free loan as well. So, no, I think Frank's math is dead on. If you have,
well now he's retired, right? Right. I think it's a little bit different because they have to get used to figuring out those months to create their own paycheck.
Yeah. You know what I-
- and I think it would be really good practice.
Right. Although when I retire, someday, I actually would like the steadiness. I think that would be cool. Joe; The steadiness of a guaranteed paycheck? Yeah. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever form that is, Social Security, pension, rental property. I think I would like the fact that it's consistent or semi consistent ,month in, month out.
Well, I think everyone wants that. Yeah. That's why we have jobs.
Yeah. Right. That's why I'm still working at this-
- because you don't wanna give up that paycheck-
- at this advanced stage.
Got it. All right. Thanks Frank. All right. We got Jon. “Feel the withdrawal rate suggestions are very low on show.”
¶ Withdrawal Rates Are Very Low on YMYW (Jon, Twitter & Apple Podcasts)
This is from Twitter. He actually posted the- sorry, X, he actually posted this on X and he also left us an Apple Podcast review saying the same thing.
Okay. Okay. “The creator of the 4% withdrawal rate says it was too low even for him.” What? Bill Bengen. He's talking to Billy?
I, I did some research and yeah, apparently Bill has revised and said you can take 4.7% now.
Yeah, but that was-
No, that was 2021. He just did that.
I know he did.
But others have said 3%. Wade Pfaus says 5%. It’s all over the place.
I think Wade Pfaus says 3%.
Well-
Did you do some research?
Well, at one point it was 5.2%. I remember that because, I don't remember the reason why, but at any rate, I guess the real answer is it we use 4% 'cause it seems like a conservative rate. Could you use higher? Sure. Possibly, but you are safer with a 4%? Should you use lower? Well, if you retire early, maybe you should use lower just because it's a number of years. Right. So it just, it's just, as we say, many times, it's a guideline. It's not really gospel, it's a guideline.
Yeah. He says, “A 65/35 portfolio was successful 98% of the time, over a 30 year with a 5.9% upper withdrawal rate.
Got it. Okay.
Yeah. Well, I don't know. You can data mine a lot of different, you know, years too. If you take a look at expected returns today, giving bonds and stocks. You know, what's, the assumptions that you're gonna run on what stocks are gonna do and what bonds are gonna do and what cash is going to do.
You look at the last 15 years, you would call that an incredible bull run. Will that continue the next 15? Hard to say, right. But it, the law of averages, we're probably not gonna have the same 15 years from now that we did the past 15 years.
Yeah. Right. And so it, it's a game of what you think that expected returns are going to be in the overall market. So, yeah, you're right. I think there's a time period that you could probably take a withdrawal rate of 7% and it worked out just fine and you still had millions of dollars left over. I think what we're trying to do and talk about on the show is that, alright, this is a gauge to see how much money that you need at in a pile
of cash before you retire. Because I know a lot of our listeners are sophisticated, but some they don't understand that, alright, if you have $100,000, you probably can't pull out $10,000 a year from that and have it last your entire retirement. Right? So. Then they're like, well, you, can probably only pull out 4%. Well, could they pull out $6000? Yeah,
maybe. Right. But I think the point is that you probably wanna be a little bit more conservative, right, as you're planning, because life happens and things kind of come into the way all the time. And if you plan conservatively, I mean, you got a little safety net.
Yeah. You got a little cushion.
Little cushion.
Yep.
Cushion is key. Alright, well that's it for us today, folks. Really appreciate all the questions. All the nice literature. Yeah. From the mailman. I'm the mailman.
You know, and your reading skills have been phenomenal lately.
I know. Well, a couple weeks ago Andi thought I'd stroked out.
Right.
That's been an impact, apparently.
Well, when someone in the middle of the show pauses and said, Joe, are you all right?
Yeah. Just got a cold. Time out. A little spritzer. Had a little glass of water. No, it's good.
But you recovered somehow.
Yeah, No, just had a little bit of a headache. Little tired. Right? I feel good today. Yeah. Alright. Thank you all. Andi, wonderful job again.
Thank you.
Aaron. Thank you. Thank you so much for all you do. You just sit there.
I think he's got some buttons he's pushing. I'm not really sure.
I think he’s pushing some. Alright, we'll see you next week. Thanks. Show’s called Your Money, Your Wealth®.
Okay, bye-bye.
Thanks once again to the American College of Financial Services for making it possible
¶ YMYW Podcast Outro
for us to bring you insights from Ed Slott, Jamie Hopkins, Wade Pfau, Michael Finke and Jeff Levine over the past several weeks. I’m posting more interviews with thought leaders from the American College exclusively on the Your Money, Your Wealth YouTube channel, so hit the link in the episode description and make sure you’re subscribed. You’ll learn more from these financial brainiacs, and you’ll get the latest from Joe and Big Al each and every week.
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