Parenting's hard, you don't know what to do You blame me, your kids, but it's probably you You love your kids and that you can trust Just remember your kids don't suck Welcome to your kids don't suck Cultivating closeness with your children through a non-coercive conscious parenting We're your hosts, Kara Tedstone and Ruthie Ali Let's dive in and grow together So, Kara, there's certain topics that are radioactive for people
Like it just sends people into deep reactivity and sometimes even a trauma response and rage and like deep authoritarian programming and one of them is screen time I'm not sure why that is so triggering for everybody but I noticed that it is and so I just been really scared to talk about it on our podcast because it's one of these issues where people kind of black and white the whole issue it's like a hard line like nope that damages kids brains
that's end of the story I'll never do that you know and that's it and so if I tell my story about how that is not what I'm doing I guess I have this fear of just turning people off to the whole bigger message that's one thing another thing is and this is really tricky I feel like there are some kids who genuinely love structure and they thrive on it and they like it and if you're like sweetie this is what I'm offering let's do two hours of screen time
and I don't know in the afternoon and then you could do it a half an hour before bedtime and the kid will be like great and that could last for years without a child having a problem with it and I'm totally down with that I wish sometimes that my child was like that but that is not how my child is my child is hyper hyper hyper sensitive to being controlled or managed or told what to do and it's not like with her I've never been able to just do non-corson a little bit
it's never like we'll just do a little bit over here and a little bit over there and I don't know if kids can't even do that but once you give my child a taste of choice, collaboration, mutuality, she's like that she just gets right she's on that train she's like wait a minute you can't tell me what to do we've decided we're collaborating you decided I'm a whole person with my own opinions and I get to have a say and no
I'm not going to do what you say that's not right that's not what we're doing in this family and because that's the culture and that's what we've decided we're doing controlling your screen time doesn't make any sense you know and I don't want people to think like you should do it how I'm doing it I don't even feel that about this whole podcast I don't feel like anybody should do it because I'm doing it this way I'm saying this works for us and especially if I'm working
with the underlying principles of non-corsive conscious collaborative parenting which is that I am not the authority and that we are collaborating and negotiating so therefore I in in in my home I actually can't really set limits for my child I can make suggestions an example is you know we basically go to sleep by midnight every night that is not my preference I would not I do not want that that's not really what I want but it turns out at 11 o'clock at night my daughter tells me
all of her deepest feelings so I've decided that's what we're doing I'm sacrificing that last hour to have sleep and I want to be close to my kid so that's one thing and so there's a larger trust that my daughter though she might appear to be on the screen like a lot like more than most people would think is okay I am trusting the long arc of her regulating herself which you know if you control the child in your home all their life they'll eventually hopefully you know they grow up and
they leave your house and then they have to experiment with all the stuff anyway every single person is going to have to figure out their relationship to their screen everybody has to figure that out what they do during childhood or you know same with the food same with sleep same with exercise same with friendship same with boundaries all of it all of it and so in this lifestyle that I'm doing my daughter is figuring that all out while she's with me so that I can give input and guidance
while she's with me so last night she said you know I'm not really into our night time schedule of sleep and I feel like we're finally at the place where I was like I don't like it either we really find it hard she said I would like to be going to bed earlier and getting up earlier because my schedule is so different than all my friends because you know she's a home schooler and so we're gonna keep talking about it now if I was controlling it's to be like yeah let's change
it what time do you want to go to bed all right let's do that tonight let's go to bed at 10 and then that wouldn't work for my daughter as soon as I come in and start trying to control the whole thing she's out then she'll start resisting me then she'll really want to stay up late and then we're in a power struggle so that's I don't know how I operate I go huh that's interesting yeah I don't like it either what do you suggest and she said yeah I want to go to bed earlier I
said okay let's talk about it again tomorrow that's it we're in the long arc of exploring so it's the same on screen time well at the beginning you said that people are so triggered by it and my immediate question was what is your tool what triggers you about screen time do you think I'm very personal yeah your own personal um response to my daughter's on the screen like what did your brain do I have to say in all of the non-coercive work I've done all these years which
is six years the screen time has been the biggest hardest trigger for me yeah I want to know why because I know it's it might be obvious but I just love to hear what does your brain do when you think about that there's so many parts one is just the thing that everyone feels is like oh my god my child is frying their brain you know like she's this is very bad for her she should be doing other things she should be getting fresh air she should be moving her body she should be making art that's
a big one now the thing with my daughter is as soon as she's with friends she's off the screen or they're making really fun videos together but when she's with people she puts her phone down and we just and she plays you know it's not like she can't be with people then she gets into lots of things where she puts her phone down lots and lots of things yesterday she decided to honor on to go on a bike ride and I always have to take note like okay my kid's doing that on her own I didn't tell her
to do what she's doing it she's 11 like that's amazing then she said I want to get up early mom I want to get up early this morning with tomorrow she said last night because I want to do some self-care that's miraculous adults can't even do that and that's all because of what this lifestyle that we're in this mindset because she is experiencing what it's like to make her choices and she's evaluating what feels good and what doesn't feel good and she knows that I'm right there
to help her with whatever change she wants to make okay but back to your question about the screen so first it's like yes she's wasting her time okay that's the first thing she's wasting your time to what everybody says like you should read the science it's hurting their brains like literally messing up their brains their eyes their you know their pathways the neurological pathways so there's that and then then it's the material that she's watching I mean my when my daughter
when I first took off the stop on the screens she started watching sitcoms it's so funny because I was very triggered by the sitcoms and now the sitcom seems better to me than what she's watching anyway she'd watch a million thousand sitcoms of every kind you could think of but they were all completely I felt deeply sexist and racist homophobic just the worst shit like the worst first body image terrible shit I mean I just like oh my god I'm like this is what is programing
my daughter's brain right now about what's normal and it has it has programmed her I mean you know she has all the internalized fat phobia she's got it she's got what it means to be a girl but the thing is we talk about it we talk about it because she knows what sexism and racism is and homophobes and I'll be like where are the gay characters can we talk about are there any gay people in this sitcom and she'll be like no I'll be like are there any people of color in this
sitcom and she'll be like wow there's this person I'm like oh is that like you know the best friend who hardly ever is on the screen you know like well so I'm I bring it I we analyze it in a context I don't just like let it go and she's getting much more into queer material now you know as she gets older finding well there are more shows now that queer people on them now thank god and not not even enough but it's starting um so that's the thing so it's like it's how she's being the material
itself and then the time that she spends on it well I I won't gonna challenge you a little bit the only because you said all that but then you had a rebuttal for each point I did which is yes which is which is telling me that in some way even though you're worried and that trigger the fear is there that like it's limitless and it's endless and it's taking her away from life and living and material and da da da you have a rebuttal to every single one of those fears in the way that
makes you like a really conscious attuned and intentional parent so that you are supporting her still even though she's using the screens for entertainment and for connection too basically my point is is like you're telling me all these fears I hear you I 100% agree I'm with you I think the same thing like I'm totally on board with what you're saying and it resonates with me but at the same time you're talking about all of that as if you don't then think about it and engage with her
and still keep the conversation going and explore other ways of engaging in life together and have conversations and do all the things at the same time I feel like your fear is telling you like screens are bad because because because and then you're kind of doing that black and white thinking there but really you're not acting in that way you're not behaving in that way like you're still using screens in your family life in a productive and educational way and even when it's not it's
no big deal because you do other things too do you know what I'm saying yeah thanks that's a real reframe I feel emotional talking about this because the underbelly of choosing to be a non-corrosive parent is that the relationship becomes more important than the things honoring her autonomy is more important to me than even how scared I am about the screens that is really the essence of this podcast I feel in this work is like what you're prioritizing it's not that people are wrong
and that they're concerned about screens it's just they make that more important than their relationship with their kid in some way I like for example I have so many friends with all their kids their screen limits on every single parent that I have they their screen limits like I have a best friend and her daughter gets five hours a day and then it goes off and she can't get on anymore so her daughter has to figure out what five hours she can use and again I don't judge
that that's fine that's great if that works for their family great but you know the kid sneaks like I'm telling you I spent so much time on the computer with my neighborhood friends we would go and come over and play on the computer do Neilpetz dolls just games like games for kids so you know all the kids kind of played around on there and there was no screen time limits it was like great you guys are on your on the computer playing around cool like there was no talk of the damages
because it had just come out and I can guarantee if I was 12 13 years old and my parents said like you're only allowed five hours a day on the computer I would have been like I'm going over to my friend Haley's then and I'll be over there playing on her computer like right on and I would leave the house and I'd go to my friend's house if that works for you and your family and it eliminates power struggles because you have this rule that you've just kind of said it's a non-negotiable and your
kid is like all right cool and it's not worth the conversation or the fight if your kid is like me and wanting still more your kid will go and find it I mean that's what I'm that's what I see with my friends kids is they sneak it that's what I'm saying and then when they get their own phone who the hell knows when they get old enough to have their own phone I mean right have you heard of have you heard of the wait till eight thing wait till grade eight to get them a phone or to get them on
their own computer like that it doesn't work for the majority of kids because they're going to go and get their friends or the other thing about this is that kids feel really really left out when they can't you know game and go on the discord chats and they can't use snapchat and they can't text like it's being on screens a lot of experts will say that are not non-coercive experts like child development experts and other child therapy types will say like when you prevent your kid from
accessing screens or you limit in a way you'll come into conflict because of the social isolation not because of the screens like it's a completely other topic in conversations not about the screen at that point when actually the majority of their socializing is done online unfortunately in 2023 that is the reality for most kids it doesn't have to be unfortunately I mean I hear you I do believe I do believe in face-to-face you know socialization I really that and my daughter has
played dates like constantly so it's happening but I don't think it's unfortunately you know she plays games with people that are all over the world yeah it's okay I don't have the same judgment but I just get so much judgment that I feel defensive I do I guess I do have some internalized doubt and I have to keep reminding myself what my priority is I have to look at my child and say how is how is she doing how does her brain seem well tell me that what do you think how do you
think she's doing I think she's doing great I mean I see her really trying to tune into what works for her from the inside out not from because I approve or disapprove or disapprove or because even what her friends are doing but because of what things feel like she did recently decide she wanted to try to put some screen green limits on her own phone then she kept overriding it so she said that's not working so she's gonna I don't know she's working on it she obviously has her own
opinion maybe she thinks she's on it too much and she's gonna work on I mean I'm it's not like I'm not gonna help her with that but I'm not gonna control it yeah I just think that this is such a missed opportunity in families when the limits start from like they it's a top-down thing like it's a power thing where it's like well screens are really not good for you so therefore we're gonna do this and the parent says that to the kid to me that's a really missed opportunity for
conversation for openness for sharing to really find out what they're looking at right like the moment that you shut it out the minute that they shut down the moment that you prevent it the moment that they go and find it so like you're really missing the exploration that really comes from the non-course of approach inviting openness I wanted to make this point earlier is that what I see with my friends kids is the sneak that's what I was trying to say they sneak screens their friends
screens I just see them trying to take it and go in the other room and sneak it you know there's a lot of sneaking so once you have a kid sneaking from the parent you're immediately setting up a power dynamic and you're immediately having separation because now they have to get around you to get the thing they want they have to get they have to get around you to feel like everyone else I can't it's hard for me to use my child as an example because it was so freaking terrible but I had
a whole world and a life that my parents didn't know about from as early as I can remember I was sneaking everything you could think of they wouldn't let me eat sugar I go to my friend's house and binge sugar they wouldn't let me watch TV I wasn't allowed to watch TV I go to my friend's house and watch hours and hours of really inappropriate terrible stuff I had no way to self-regulate I had no guidance around because it was just no it was just no there was no like you're saying like
you're saying a total missed opportunity the only thing is I hear people in my mind right now saying care they're like I have a three-year-old what are you you know I have a two-year-old and a three-year-old yeah we're not going to discuss screen time like what the hell are you talking about well I mean I have a one and a half year old almost and we still use screens and we don't talk about it either but
it's not an issue because it's not an issue yet not an issue yet because it it it's only going to become an issue when it becomes like she doesn't want to turn them off right so that's probably what those parents are talking about if I have a three-year-old we can't have a conversation and when I say let's let's turn them off they don't want to and they demand more and more and more I assume yes right so when you were when you were when Tori was younger and you had that I mean I know she was
around five but what how did you approach it you have to remember that I went I I had been controlling her and had a kind of spiritual awakening so I took everything all the stops off all at once I said you can watch as much video as you want I went right into like totally not letting her watch video at all to like just saying watch as much as you want I went nuts you know so she would watch it until she was done and then that was it trying to remember what happened in the beginning I mean
yeah as soon as I said you can watch it she of course did what Vivek told me she would do which is that she would cling to it because she was so scared I was going to take it away again that she would you know hoard it hoard it she did the same thing with sugar she was like you haven't let me eat sugar for five years you haven't let me watch screen survivors I'm going to hoard the shit out of this and this is what people are really scared of if I don't control it then my kid will just
watch videos from morning till night they will never stop and that is what happened that is not what's happening now but that is what is what happened she went nuts on these things because she had been deprived and she was reacting and she was wanting to take back the controls and that took years for her to stop feeling like like it took years for her to feel like she could take her grip off of those things yeah in my head saying like well I'm not prepared to let to have
my kid watch as much as they want I'm just not prepared when I'm thinking about the kids of the parents of the younger kids like around my my kids age or a little bit older toddlers and preschoolers and preschoolers I hear that because I would not too want aliyah watching screens all day long and youtube after youtube after youtube so to that I would probably bring into the collaboration thing because the way that we do it is we just watch it until she's ready I just ask her like are you ready
to go we're gonna go outside soon like when are you right because she understand I've said this before on the show she understands everything and she can say yes or no and she will tell me no and I'll say oh you want a few more minutes and she's like yeah and then usually we get to a point in the show that she's watching that she's done and then when she gets to that point I'm like do you want to be all done now and go outside and she'll just say yes but for some families they'll say to
me well my kid won't ever say yes my kid will say no no no I want more more more more more so I would try to collaborate and see if you can ask them if they're like offered the other options of the day do you want to go outside do you want to go to the park do you want to do the other things like that's how I would navigate that and if they truly said no no no no no and just watch the screen yeah that's gonna require a deeper conversation about like well what are you gonna do are you
just gonna accept that this is part of your journey for now if you want to jump into non-corrosion in the true sense and see what happens you know like what do you say to that if your kid is actually wanting the screen from dawn until dusk and not saying yes to other options right that like that's the most extreme that you could kind of think about and it happens it's true it does happen oh it does it does I offer collaboration always is like the first kind of lifeline of response but
when that doesn't work you know let's let's brainstorm that out loud you know Kara I've never met anybody who's starting non-corrosion at the beginning so a lot of what happened with me and Tori was because I had already coerced her in many ways not like totally and completely but I was a gentle nice controlling parent until she was five so a lot of what came later like the last the next four years when I switched was her having to process all the years of being controlled
that's so true part of it what you're saying is she was relinquishing her freedom again right so using control on her end to process that experience so that makes total sense so you're saying you don't know what would have happened if you had raised her from the beginning in this way that I'm doing with Aliyah right yeah that's why I'm so fascinated to see all the things that will happen with you well this is the thing like I am not an expert in doing this I work with families obviously
and when we when they come to me and they say that you know we talk about all this and we kind of explore but you're right I am doing this from the beginning and I have not met anyone who has with Aliyah screens are just uh you want it sure like it's not a big it's just it's a it's like food we're very just easy and and relaxed with food in my house like I don't get stressed out at all about mealtimes she eats what she eats I present what I present she eats what she eats
and I let the rest go she always has food on the table that she likes and I know she'll probably eat and even if she doesn't I just move on if she sees a bagel on the counter and wants it I give it to her like I just I let it I let her eat intuitively like I just that's how I do it and I'm like that with screens like she always knows we watch screen time in the morning when I do her hair about 20 ish minutes he's usually done after about a half hour then we usually go outside and then if she
points to the remote and is like at me for the screen we'll watch a few minutes here or there like it's just like no big deal and then she usually she's done I'm so curious how that's going to unfold it may unfold into the screen obsessed person that you know I hear about all the time I'm just remembering right now that the big arguments that most parents have that I've heard is that it's addictive that's it that's the thing everybody says have you read the studies
you know screens screens are addictive control it for your child because they will get addictive it and plus we know every single adult right now is addicted to their phone come on we all are we all are yeah um sometimes when I actually really love tiktok I have to tell you I'm a total tiktoker but I don't I don't lose tons of time watching tiktok say I'll say I'm gonna watch for like 20 minutes or then I'll watch and I just I watch things that mean a lot to me people that mean a
lot to me sometimes I do it for fun but I'm not addicted I don't feel addicted um but you know if you saw me I'm probably on my phone as much as anyone else for a million reasons not just tiktok whatever anyway but about the addiction when we're at my daughter has a phone she's had a phone for a year she's almost 12 when we're in the car I'll say will you not be on your phone so we can talk and like nine out of ten times she goes oh yeah yeah yeah or she'll be like I'm just gonna I'm just gonna
text my best friend and then I'll talk and so she so and because she doesn't feel controlled by me she feels okay with that that's what I was gonna say with this whole question of like what about these younger kids if your child doesn't feel constantly controlled by you just in general I do think that you're gonna have more success with coming at this entire issue with collaboration in your toolbox will you get off your phone or will you put your phone away so we can talk is a
question that's a collaborative question you can ask yeah you're not saying get off your phone Tori come on man I want to talk to you wait if you ask me a question you have to be willing to hear no sometimes she says mom I'm in the middle of texting my friend I just got to finish this and and sometimes it takes the whole car right and that's just you know she gets to decide but most of the time she puts it away and because she wants the connection and we've negotiated that
that that's we both value that well this is why I think like that conversation and I know I keep coming back to it because it's sticking my head right now it's like I'm attached to this idea of parents saying well sorry but if I let my kid watch screens all day they will from you know dawn until dusk blah blah blah I think it's because there is not the emphasis on the connection and the collaboration and instead there is that emphasis on coercion in the family like in the
relationship when kids are collaborated with and that's the norm and they know to expect that in the side of their relationship with their parents and it's not the power dynamic that we traditionally see I think kids are more likely to actually tune into the needs of what the parent is is collaborating on them with right I know that it's really hard I know that there are instances where you might not
you might hear no right the kid might actually stay on the screen all day and that's going to suck for you when you want to see your kid doing other things and also spend time outside of screens with your kid but when you truly engage in a non-coercive and collaborative way I really think that you're going to have more opportunities for real collaboration that result in getting your needs met as well versus the screen time hard limit situation because then anytime you drop your rope on that
they're going to take advantage because they're like oh they're going to take it away I'm going to hoard it all like you said or they're going to stick to the limits and maybe there's not going to be a whole ton of conversation about it at home because they've accepted it but they're going to go find
it another way outside of the house. I really do think you can start if you're interested in non-coercion you can start by creating a limit you can be friendly and kind of you go this is how many watch we do a day I think it's fine unless your kid really doesn't like that they're pushing against it they feel controlled by it as soon as they feel controlled by it and they're saying no and you're forcing them now you're already now you're in the course of dynamic and then kids will
use anything to claim their autonomy they will use whatever they can have whatever they can get their hands on so they will they will try to get to the screen or get to the food or get to the whatever it is you're not letting them do or they'll just shut it down they'll leave your house and they'll
be forced to have to navigate those things by themselves. Last night my daughter started telling me you know I want to respect her privacy so I'm going to make this as general as possible she started telling me quote unquote inappropriate terms that she's heard on the internet she said mom I learned this word it's like a really provocative word I'm like what what she goes what does that mean so I'm saying oh that means this what does this word mean I'm like how did
you learn this word she goes on my probably on my Instagram videos I said well which one she's like I don't know I learned lots and lots of words I'm like I'm like are you watching anything that's that I should know about or like do you feel uncomfortable with it she's like no it's all really I don't know how it got in there but I learned this word and that one too so I started having to define all these these words for her and explain what they are and we got we got into
it I mean it made me really anxious that she's learning that you know without me somewhere but then I feel so relieved that she's asking me and telling me I know that if I was controlling her she would never tell me yeah yeah well hearing that you tell me about that I obviously I'm not the parent so I don't get any anxiety I just get like I wish that I had that and I wish that my kid had that with me like I wish I had that with my parents and I wish my kid had that with me and
I wish that all children had that with their parents because that is such a good example of how human beings should feel that they can explore and play and freely engage with stuff and then talk about it with their people at home without fear of shame or judgment yeah like she said what is you know like at some point this was not last night but the you know what does slut mean what is the word slut mean so then I have to figure out in those moments how the fuck I'm gonna explain
it's really hard but I'm like oh thank god she's asking me it was all those kinds of questions Kara wow we're in it together thank god because here's the thing if you just say no you can't know these are screen limits and this and the child feels really controlled and then they start hoarding it and then they start hiding it and then they become a teenager and then they go to your friends then they're gonna be hiding all the shit that they're being exposed to they're not gonna come
ask you about it but the internet is dangerous I'm my daughter like you know like she knows what porn is she's never seen it she said that last night I said well what are you watching what did you see she goes mom it's not porn don't worry but that's but it's like really important for her to know what it is though yeah I think it's incredibly important for her to not be in the dark that's that's the thing with this when you start setting limits and having hard lines on things and non
negotiables you do close off the ability to for that child to come with you with questions come to you with questions because you've already said like not in my house or like not after these times or like don't you know push push me here don't push me there like there's an implicit like expectation for this kid to go off and do what you've said therefore like why would that kid then come to you freely and ask questions about it because you've already kind of told them that you're closed
not only that but like you broke the rules yeah you watched something you weren't supposed to be watching you broke the rules so now your kids are not going to tell you what they did while they were breaking the rules because also you know the context of breaking the rules might be like oh I watched it at my friend Hailey's house after you told me I wasn't allowed to watch screens that day right there there's more there's there's so much more to the conversation that you're then missing
because you've already set all these limits around it what if they break that rule like you said find out about it and then they have these really scary questions but they're not going to God forbid they ask you because you they broke the rule and the consequence for breaking the rules left screen time so why are you you're not going to tell yeah and like that is really sad to me that like kids feel like they can't talk about certain things with their parents it's so it's not just sad it's
dangerous it's fucking dangerous when children are feel so controlled that they can't bring you their their most scary experiences to their parent this is this is it oh my god I'm so moved because I feel so much shame around the screen time that I allow my child and I feel like this conversation is helping me get underneath the shame but why am doing this that's why I asked you at the beginning like that's why I challenged you because I was like I you have great you have
like you have thought the fucking shit out of this like you have responses to all of this it's really just your self-hating voice and also the societal input I think that's coming out there when I see comments like on your videos or anywhere people saying like well I really hope that you're at least like limiting a little bit maybe you know what types of what kind of time are you talking about in the context of how much screens you're certainly only allowing her maybe
three hours a day right you're certainly following the AAP recommendations right like people will say that to parents who say like oh my kid has no limits it's not about the limits it's about the thought that you put into the thing that your kid is engaging with I really hate when people put like bad and good labels on things what is the child's internalized voice about now they're going to grow up feeling intense shame whenever they watch screens and whenever they eat or
all when you're controlling and shaming and judging that becomes the child's self-hating voice that they that's that's the voice they're going to treat how they're going to treat themselves uh with the screen or anything else when you have the judgment and again I really think boundaries and limits are absolutely fine if it's not putting a wedge in your relationship that's fine like that's what collaboration is all about yeah yeah ask your kid if this works for them try that
you know I I think this much screen time is good for your brain what do you think let's try it let's try it and evaluate together how that feels I want you to get outside and have fresh air and blah blah blah what do you want to try that let's try this schedule you know when you were just saying like it's all the same issues right like there's never good time to set a limit and then you were saying well you can set a limit but of course you have
to talk to your kid what's um what's the barrier there like for the parents like are they not sure how to do that or like what you mean or the barrier is always the same which is I mean there's many typical universal barriers to treating your child as a whole human being but in terms of screen time people don't even know they it doesn't even literally occur to them to ask their child it doesn't occur to them to collaborate with their child I had the most amazing session with someone
just a couple of like a couple days ago it was this person who's totally doing non-couraging with their their 14 year old there was just such a beautiful session but um she can't get her kid to school on time I mean they're like in the battle of wills every single morning and then I get to that point in the session like have you asked your child like hey this is hard I'm noticing it's like we're both not having fun and it's really painful what do you think we should do and getting into
like a whole conversation about how it feels to both of you and she's like no I hadn't thought of that and that's the that's the common barrier is to think to include your child into your world into the world of whatever the challenge is and you know I can hear people arguing with me you know no children don't have the intellectual wherewithal they don't have the experience they don't have the information you can't let them negotiate you can't let them have input they don't know what they're
talking about you know so or they might say like I don't believe my child has the capacity to do that like I didn't say that to my kid and they'll say well I don't know well they'll say I just want to watch it as much as I want yeah or they'll just give some like answer that isn't satisfying but a lot of times it's not necessarily about the screens and that's the thing I was explaining to the parents last night in my parents support group is it seems like it's about the
screen it seems like it's about the sweets but usually it's your child fighting for autonomy and picking something that they feel really controlled around and hanging on to it and fighting for it as hard as they can because they need to feel a sense of self they need to feel autonomous Ruthie one thing I want to know what you say to parents is when parents ask you well what about I try to collaborate with my kid and I tell them you know what do you think we could do and this
is how it's it's hard for me I've noticed it's tricky what do you you know you know what do you think about that and their kid just says I don't know I don't know I want to watch tv I don't know and they just kind of shut down that's the thing is like you have to it's like starting over if you decide you're going to go non-course if you're starting the whole relationship over and there is a period of time where you let go of control and things go nuts things go crazy because it's
like you have to think of it was you and someone had been controlling your screen time for five years and now they decide they're gonna let go well yeah you're gonna overwatch just like you're gonna overeat sweets and just like you're gonna overdo whatever the thing is that's been controlled I mean it took my daughter years to finally start to ask herself how she wants to regulate her screens because she she knew it was so triggering for all the adults in her life so she held on to
it really really tight now she feels free to explore it herself but that took a long time on the show once you said like we should allow children children should be allowed to have a fucking process yeah which when parents say to me because I get this a lot of my work like well I try to collaborate with my kid they just say I don't know well I encounter that a lot in therapy with teenagers and younger children like I don't know is something that kids say people say I don't
say but I think with non-coursing like that's the process I don't know is a fine answer keep talking about it keep revisiting it keep collaborating if they don't know in that moment like maybe you don't either maybe there's no solution to be found in that moment you know but you can also try stuff I always talk about writing writing down stuff so why don't we try this yeah let's do that for a week and then let's check in again then let's try this and make a whole list of let's try things yeah
because I know from my experience like I'm thinking of particular families like they'll say to me well I've tried to collaborate my kid says I don't know and then I don't know where to go from there I would offer why don't you suggest something and if they are super not into it that's your cue to continue to brainstorm like keep the process open keep exploring and keep bringing it up in moments where you're connected obviously so it's not a lecture and it's not it's not an authoritative
thing but it's just trying and it's not pulling right it's it's really being mindful that you're not like digging and digging and pulling and pulling and nagging it's more just like okay like yeah maybe I don't know either maybe we'll talk about it another time I think when kids say don't know a lot it's because they really do feel pressed on and pulled on then they they just kind of shut down actually I use that a lot in my work with teens like if they're saying I don't know a lot
I go okay I'm pulling back yeah unfortunately for parents sometimes that looks like in therapeutic work all teen therapists and kid therapists will say sometimes that looks like then moving into connection which is not fixing the kid which is more like gaming with the kid telling stories coloring like playing neopets or whatever because then they don't feel pulled on and they're more much more likely to share something later on even if it's weeks like I'm in periods of that
all the time in my work where I'm just playing games for weeks and weeks and then you break through into some other moment where you've really been as like a conscious therapist that's obviously our job is to really notice when you're getting the shutdown to reflect and think oh that's my part of my process I need to shift gears I need to pull back so for parents I think like they they might feel frustrated when we keep saying collaborate and they'll say like well my my
10 year old they can't like they actually can't they keep shutting down they say I don't know I try to collaborate with them but they won't do it or they can't do it I would say that it's probably because that's part of the process right now you're still collaborating you just maybe need to pull back a little bit and move into connection probably covert control going on and the parent doesn't recognize it they think oh my kid just doesn't want to my kid doesn't like to they want to
do their own thing I mean there's you know some of that's natural as kids grow up they want their own space but a lot of times if a child feels controlled they don't want to share that's just the result of it that's the result of control that's the result of coercion and so I it's funny I've been trying to make videos on tiktok about how can children really play with their parents if they feel controlled they can't really let down because they have to be ready to protect themselves
in any moment just like the rest of us we can't play with people we don't who have power over us yeah you can't trust it yeah being really vulnerable and being really like free to just express yourself when you don't really trust that person screen time now is shifting okay my daughter just turned 12 two days ago our relationship is really shifting her brain is really shifting you really feel like we're in the friend part of it and I
never felt it so clearly it's so amazing it's really really feels so good it feels so good to not having to I think a lot of the stress of parenting is or has been for me in the past is how am I gonna adequately control my child you know how am I gonna get them to da da da da how am I gonna stop them from blah blah blah why isn't she doing this shouldn't she be like that and the comparing and all that stuff this behavior this is a bad behavior how am I gonna get that
behavior to stop you know all of that and then all my childhood stuff you know so and so I'm finally at the point because she's 12 where I'm actually trusting her and I'm trusting myself so like that whatever I've worked on all these years there's now this big bubble of trust that I can lean into and it carries both of us and so I'm so much less worried about screen time than I used to be that was like my main trigger for years and years and years this was the screen
time so it's funny I noticed a lot of times I think I might have already said this on this episode but like when I go to engage with my daughter she puts her phone down and engages with me that's just how it is she doesn't just keep looking at her phone and it doesn't listen to me and that doesn't happen she'll literally hit stop put it down and we sit down we talk or if I invite her to do things she does them or she invites me to do things or but what's happening with her screen time now is
that she's um learning how to self-structure so she's actually been getting these apps that you put in your calendar your schedule and then you follow it and I just want to say something about I've unschooled my daughter her whole life she's never been to school now she's decided she wants to go to public school in the fall it may or may not happen um but so she wants us to try to catch her up so me and her dad and my partner will we're all like picking different things we're
teaching her and learning like looking up the curriculums and all that but whenever I go to teach Tori or do it with her and she resists she goes oh I don't want to do this right now I'll say you don't have to do it it's up to you and then she'll think about it and she'll go oh no I really want to do it so she's completely leaning it this is so rare that a child would get to decide if they want to do structured learning or not so this is like a crazy experiment she gets off her
screen all the time that's what I'm noticing she puts it down and gets off it for all kinds of reasons and she's decided that and then yes she also puts screen limits on for herself I have so many parents who really want that what you're saying yeah it's there um it's tough in my work because I'm not working directly with them right they're like I'm working with their children so I'm hearing through the kids and then I meet with the parents and I do some support work with the parents when I can
what I run into is it's traditional parenting and so um they want me to go work with the kid to help the kid set the limits and figure that out but really what they're missing in all of that which you really get is that the control and the coercion is undermining what they really want to instill which is that intrinsic motivation so that's what I just wanted to name when you were saying that really what she's experiencing is I want to adjust my habits so that I can achieve
x or I can spend time with friends or I can do whatever it goes hand in hand with the school like she has this goal and now she's trying to navigate what she's currently her day-to-day is and a lot of my clients their parents will say they're addicted to screens they don't want to change they have no interest in changing there's no intrinsic motivation at all their parents are coming to me saying I need you to change them what we're doing at home isn't working you're the
expert go and change them and that's what they're missing is everything you just said it's almost impossible as a therapist to support any growth in that area if parents aren't open like we always say to talking about the control and the power and the dynamic and the collaboration like that's what needs to shift in the home so it's just kind of me naming that you know parents out there if you're listening like why you've been able to access and unlock the intrinsic motivation in Tori
is because you've given her the tools right by stepping back I mean I sort of given her the tools I've just mostly given her the space doesn't I mean that that's how you've given her the tools she's I guess how intrinsic motivation works is like we can't teach it you know you cannot teach somebody to want to change a habit they have to want to change a habit right so as parents parents don't understand that they really don't understand that that's why like with screen time
then we were talking about food and we're talking about sleep and all these things with limits like you just can't teach somebody to want to change right and therapists know that you know when we work with things like motivational interviewing different modalities that really work with that process of change like the states of change and the theory of change therapists trained in those modalities know that you can't teach somebody to intrinsically motivate towards an external goal
that's been placed for them so my team clients who really struggle with screens I'll ask them like what do you think about your screen habits they'll be like yeah it's fine I don't mind it and the thing is I guess I've always and especially since she's five prioritized our relationship yeah over everything else that's the part where I've guided her in that way so actually that's what's important to her at those moments where she would rather talk to me than be on her screen because she's
learned through experience that gives her something that's better or that she needs right then and she values that even if it's not like you know something that is a preferred activity for example she might turn off her screen and then go to mom because she has a good relationship with mom and that's fun for her so that's like motivating but Tori also has been able to talk to you and explore and learn through you and your relationship because it's been there's been no power struggles
I mean maybe here and there but for the most part she's very open to going to you to just talk and explore and learn and be you know next to you like a client and a therapist I think about that a lot in my parenting it's like just openness you're just a container for whatever so when she then you know wants to think about her own limits when it comes to screens and her own usage you're there to just totally non-judgmentally explore that with her so it's not just about turning off the screen
going to hang out with mom because mom's fun and cool it's because mom's there to help me learn about what I really want and I'm learning with through my relationship that is so open with my mother that I don't love the way that screens isolate me maybe or whatever it is maybe she has the freedom to wait she has the freedom to explore that without consequences and judgment yeah and shame and like just any sort of like input I think parents forget how like we always talk about
like the push and pull when parents put input into something I think you mentioned this too when you were saying when she was younger it was like any any hobby she had that you were really into and you'd be like oh I love your singing you should sing more she'd be like nope you know like when we push and pull agenda agenda agenda yeah right parents forget the power that that has I do want to say though that I would have to say the screen has been the number one trigger for me in in every
single bit of this journey I felt so so scared that I was doing it wrong I felt shut out and then it would trigger my abandonments that I mean just so many triggers that's what I last night when I was in my parents support group and I was talking about this with the parents people said they felt relieved because they're so they're judging themselves all the time so they would say see their kid on the screen and then the first thing they do is judge themselves and go I'm
doing it wrong I will say I feel the same too I get really anxious about screen time we all know the the scary dangers of screen time like we're and because it seems like parents right that's the biggest thing that I struggled with yeah it's not like it was for you that you felt like you like were letting her do it and so you were like being neglectful or it was damaging oh yeah yeah you talked about a hundred different things oh no her brain I'm fucking up her eyesight I'm
fucking up her brain she's watching things that are destroying her self-esteem she's watching things that are giving her the worst views on humanity didn't wasn't going to pull it away from her so then I had to just deal with how much it was triggering me all the time my kid was not for a very long time not willing to negotiate with me about the screens right you just be like yeah do what I want you know for like you know a good three years yeah and so you know and sometimes
I for reasons I had to get her off you know which was really you know we have to go do stuff but um but that was the thing she held on to the most I would say it's fine to set loving limits as long as you know that if the power struggles begin and it starts to erode your relationship that you're willing to let that go and and try other things yeah like if you can just say hey we're doing two hours of we're doing two hours of screen time a day do you want one in the morning one at night
what do you want oh and they're like yeah great I mean if you can get away with that for three years and that feels good to you great but my kid was not like that yeah yeah I also hope too that we can sort of validate um parents feeling like they're shitty parents and like neglectful and stuff when you have a child who like isn't like that you can feel like I'm thinking about my own experience like when Aliyah really struggles with a thing and I don't want to upset her so then I feel like I am
just letting her do whatever even though I know it's neither here nor there really in the long time can you give an example how we approach screens now and I guess when we originally started this episode it was a few months ago or something so it's kind of like Aliyah um we're gonna go downstairs and get ready to go outside or whatever it is like we're gonna transition so I let her know and I say and then we're gonna have to say bye to the show that she's watching because I always
still she watches TV in the morning when I do her hair and to get off now she's entering 20 months she's 20 months now so it's like really hard for her to transition off of the screen obviously um so I like to use a timer which she is really cool with she really likes the timer and that's been really working but if she's really not into it like she'll tell me she'll be like no no more more I'll ask her if she wants a few more minutes and I will kind of collaborate with her there
and then we usually reach a peaceful solution like she's able to transition and then do the other thing without like crying or a struggle and we'll sing our bye-bye song we always sing to things to help her transition so that's cool that works well for us just that like when we give our kids extra time we let them we whatever we go in her head all right fuck it it's not worth the struggle I'm just gonna like let them have the hour or whatever or the 20 extra minutes or the five or
whatever it is I don't know if other listeners can relate but I will definitely go into the fuck I'm I'm such a permissive parent like I'm I'm so neglectful I really need to strong arm it and like just get her to the next things I need a teacher that like she needs to just like when I say it's done it's done and I go into the traditional mindset and I stress myself out and I also feel the shame and the guilt around not being almost like have that compliant kid who just like does
what I say that's that's almost like I should just be making her do whatever I want and just she should be not crying about it you know she should just be like a robot going through the day and doing it I just want to say we all parents have that well I have that right yeah why can't my kid just do what I tell them to do I know what's better for them anyway yeah why is it such a fucking battle and all the things that turns into that turns into why can't I just make my child the
person that I have in my head exactly yeah so I guess I wanted to just validate parents if you have that story like I do and then you go into the shame I guess what's the shame voice I'm trying to think what's the part it's kind of like I'm a shitty mom you know like if I was more consistent if I had the right tools I was saying to the vape on a call about this recently like like if I could just brainstorm or collaborate in a different way or you know have a better transition or a more
preferred activity or a more creative way to transition her I could prevent her from being upset and I'd get her to do what I want like I just shit all over myself basically in my head and if parents have other shame stories or whatever you feel like you're neglectful they've watched too much tv today I have that one too I'm like oh fuck she's already watched 30 minutes or yesterday she was sick and she watched an hour and I'm like oh my god again I should have never
done tv in the first place I'm a terrible mother then I don't know I just want to validate you because collaborating with your kid really is not in alignment with that script like that script tells us that we need to strong arm and be the authority and that collaborating and letting your kid I'm doing air quotes letting your kid get away with extra time just that script wants to do like punch that solution in the face you know that's how I feel I feel like again I'm doing that
I have one idea and I have another idea and they're not in alignment with each other Kara just said like one hour like she was feeling bad about one hour and I just want you to know that my daughter watches the 16 million hours a day so there's you know and my daughter's so much younger right she's only 20 months too so right but they're out and about and like she comes along with everything I do too so that right but that's Kara's that's Kara's quotient and
mine is really different and yours is really done and everyone gets to do it their own way yeah and also uh people have you know the authoritarian mindset that you're pointing to Kara is and in gentle parenting so the whole whole idea of gentle parenting is you would say no I'm counting down from 10 and when we get to one we're turning off the screen and then you just turn it off someone was telling a story on tiktok how their child was in the bath and the kid didn't want to get
out of the bath and oh two different parents said the same thing and then they just went and they just unplugged it they didn't the kid was going down and they just went and they just said okay and they just unplugged it I'm like I would never do that um because it's basically just using your power over your child and giving them the experience of being completely powerless because they didn't feel they didn't want their kids to get upset or they didn't feel they have the skills to
do whatever work that out in this whole mindset negotiation is not considered a failure of the parent like being weak it's actually growing growing connection and equalizing the playing field the equalizing the power even with the toddler yeah so if you're willing to go back and forth okay let's try this now let's just okay we'll do five more minutes and go back and forth and even though the judgment will be I'm so weak I'm not being a strong parent you're actually
helping your child slowly learn how to feel powerful and have a voice that's that's what we're doing here yes thank you for summarizing that so well I'm at the point where my daughter's 12 and all of the good things about her are coming to life and so I'm in a good really good place to say hey it's worth the investment yeah yeah well can I ask you something because you know about the bath one like that's obviously um the parent I'm sure when you pull the plug on your kid the parents like well
we have to get to bed or you have to get your teeth or whatever it's like they feel like they don't have another option right same with the screens you know people will just be like well I'm turning it off and I'm hiding the remote and like you know I'm just gonna end the activity like what do you say to that when parents come to you in the sport groups are like well worth yeah I don't know what else to do like sometimes I just need to pull the plug on the bath and I
just need to turn off the TV because like we just have to we just have to have to have to go somewhere you know it's really cool there's a person in my support group last night you know a lot of these people are just beginning that the very beginning of thinking about non-corson and she said I'm just starting to every time I'm about to say no I stop and go do I have to say no I do that too no so wait a minute I just said no wait you have to get you have to come with me to
run errands and then she realized that her husband was home and that her kid did not have to come with her and she said she's she hasn't really gotten to the point where she doesn't force her kid but she's at least noticing she's at the beginning part of just noticing her wanting to say no and asking herself do I have to I feel like that's a big thing too that's the beginning of this journey where you start going why do I am why am I asserting my power this way why do I have to is
this absolutely necessary so if it is absolutely necessary like I don't know what why would it be absolutely necessary to get your kid out of the bath I'm trying to think because I don't know you're exhausted your other kids crying they're freezing in the bath or you know and you feel like you absolutely have to I think you know I think usually you don't really have to like you could you could keep negotiating for probably another 20 minutes and it would be fine everybody
would live but let's just say you really really had to then you just have to explain it even if it's a little kid I'm so sorry I have to get you out of the tub because I'm tired and your brother's crying and I'm so sorry honey I wish I didn't have to I know that's not fair I know you're so you know then yeah but you can't that really sounds like the gentle parent a way so I'm very you're saying that you go through a lot of other steps in non-couraging before you get to that
point and it's only when you know you absolutely have no other way like it's it's not just have to because it's lunchtime or we have to because it's bedtime it's just keeping it's like like I made a post about this on Instagram I said the exact same thing I think I was using get your coat on when it's freezing as an example you just do a million other ways like I made a post about this and I said the exact same things I said I could pull it up but I deleted Instagram off my phone because
I just do that sometimes and it was like you know use playfulness use connection and all these other ways use like all these different approaches that are creative and you know try to make it fun take them outside and see what it's like to be freezing in minus 20 for a few seconds you know I'll do that with Aliyah I lots of times our caregiver Nanny whatever you want to call her she does that with Aliyah she'll take her out in the morning when we say goodbye because saying goodbye to me is hard
she takes her with her without a coat every day and just for a few seconds while they walk away and we're waving at the door and then she puts her coat on when she's regulated again and they've connected now and they look they look for cats on the way and it's very like it's just a lot less stressful for Aliyah because I think putting the coat on for her is just something she really really hates so I just try to use a million different things and if I'm out of steam and I'm super
tired I've been there it's happened a few times I'll just tell her like I'm so sorry you hate to wear your coat and I know you hate it and I'm gonna put it on now and I hate putting on your coat and I wish I didn't have to and I hate winter too and I'll like stop my feet with her and I'll kind of yell with her a little bit like quietly and sometimes she does cry and I just put it on or I'll be able to tell her something while putting it on to distract her I guess to redirect her or
just to connect with her whatever you want to call it I think they understand that we are connecting with them right and that you're actually trying to preserve her sense of self you're actually trying very very hard see people will say what's the big fucking deal put the kids coat on they'll cry for a second who the hell cares like children have to learn that you just have to do things and life is hard stop coddling your children um that's the authoritarian party line there and the thing
is is that every interaction you have with your child is going to affect their sense of self like so so it seems like nothing to to go through all of that to put on their coat it seems like that's ridiculous but the truth is you're you're um truly respecting that your child is a whole person and all of those teeny tiny little things yeah you're treating them like a person that matters that has
a body that has a choice um and you're seeing that and that that's going to be everything to them as they grow up when my daughter was around five and I decided to really lean hard into non-coercive conscious parenting I told my daughter I'm not going to control your screen time we're going to start to figure it out together and so she wrote this song spontaneously with my housemate at the time who was a great guitarist um singing about her point of view on video watching and you can just
hear the passion the video is also on my tiktok and she is the cutest thing ever um so this is her plea for just freedom it's not the best quality so I hope you can hear the words she's saying things like I want video every day you can't stop me from being me oh this has been your kids don't suck you can find me karateadstone at www.karateadstonetherapy.com and on instagram at karateadstonetherapy on my website you'll find links to recommended readings and a link to my reparenting with
mindfulness workbook available now on amazon you can find me rithya lee at www.rithya.com that's r-y-t-h-e-a.com there you'll find published books articles and music and parenting videos also i'm on tiktok at rithya lee on instagram at rithya lee you can book parent mentoring sessions with me through my website and also i have an advice from a loving bitch youtube show that helps people heal self-hatred and that's rithya.com slash advice it is important and
essential to put our voices rithya and kara in a context we are two white cisgendered straight middle-class women living with financial and societal privilege because of this our perspectives are limited and do not reflect the realities of all of our listeners this podcast will feature guests with expertise around conscious parenting who differ in race class abilities sexual orientation and histories from us to broaden the conversation and reflect the lives of as many people as possible
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