Thomas Bywater from AIKO: Revolutionising Solar Panel Efficiency with Cutting-Edge Technology and Design

No , really , when it comes to the technical stuff , I just blabber , and you know actually the background . So what you're saying is I'm a bit of a nerd , Marcus , yeah , but not bad looking for a nerd . Anyway , let's get started . Ike Asola I mean you've left JNCO and went to a new player .

That's a big step , because how long you were with them initially player .

We have some wonderful guys of all different backgrounds and we just got the best out of everyone . I think that's why we could do so well and the obvious thing is the technology right . Technology drives a lot of everyone . I think that's why we could do so well and the obvious thing is the technology right Technology drives a lot of this .

So when you have good technology and good people , you sort of can't not succeed .

It's hard not to get excited about that if you are a nerd , as we mentioned before .

So what's not to like ? So you started . How has the first year been ? I think it's been mind-blowing . I've been just humbled by the support from all of our friends in the installer community Around the world . It's been amazing to look at the shift in places like Czech Republic and Germany towards this technology , and even in Japan .

So it's phenomenal to just see that growth and just see that team multiply and also to see the savings that people are getting and the projects they're able to do they couldn't do before Amazing .

So you're really having a product that gives you , you know , not 10% , but not too far from 10% more output , and is that really important ?

We need to understand that things that used to be a dollar or what are now at the mass market price . So that's key . The second thing , of course , being efficient . It's worthwhile to break that down . Like what does it mean to be efficient as a solar panel ? It just means you're using the space .

Well , right , I think people forget that efficiency just means the power density on your roof . So if you can get more power on the roof , you can make more energy . So if you're using more power , let's say for your swimming pool , for your EV , your roof's still the same size after you put that swimming pool on .

Being able to make the best use of that roof is where the Ico panels sing .

That was true when we were going one and a half kilowatt , but it's not true right now anymore . What's the truth ?

So our products because it's more space efficient , then you're going to use less racks , you're going to take less time and that's going to flow through to the cost to the end user . It's going to leave space free for things like skylights .

So even if you've in the past thought you had a lot of roof , maybe now that you've got batteries on , you need to system twice as big as we were putting in 10 years ago . So we haven't found too many urban sites that are saying I've just got too much space . And the other thing it gives you the elegance too .

So maybe you can put all of the panels away from the street face , maybe you can stay away from shading and obstructions that are just on part of that roof , even though the roof is big . You might have a chimney , you might have a TV or you can stay away from that .

And the other thing is like if you're in a rural environment with heaps of space , maybe you're doing a ground mount . Ground mount is simply poles in concrete , right ? So if you can put in less poles , put in less concrete . That's a benefit as well , right , right ?

Yes , and when you think of EV coming , swimming pools being added , teenagers guzzling electricity like nothing , that's why the system size is getting bigger . Is that the reason ?

So you go to a place like Kellyville or maybe Point Cook in Victoria , you go out to Morayfield in Queensland , you'll see all these houses , huge roofs but lots of little triangles , so actually the roof plane you can put solar on is a little bit constrained .

Thank goodness for MLPE , we can do some of those sites with some of those technologies like Enphase or Tygo and SolarEdge , but in general we're constrained to a part of the roof and not all of it , right ? And as you said , someone suddenly buys an EV now they need more power use , so that roof is at a premium .

But we want to have a dialogue with architects just to say , look , don't have a big flat roof that faces south . Or , if you , you do have another plane available for solar .

If you're going to make a house with lots of complex structures , leave a viable area of 20 square meters , 30 square meters that we can put this technology onto and that makes it easier for maintenance and it can make it safer , like if we had a dedicated space with a hook for harnesses or whatever . That can improve the safety outcomes for maintenance .

So we just need to think one or two steps ahead . Let's have some bigger meter boxes too , while we're at it . I'd love to see that . But yeah , you're dead right , marcus . It's a problem for the industry . It's something we need to work on in parallel . In the meantime , our IKO panels , being space efficient , help you make the best use of the roof .

I feel like it's a bit like with old cars Nobody thought of the headrest and everybody got whiplashed and the steering wheel normally impaled people because it wasn't collapsing . Oh really , I wasn't aware of that second part , but we're kind of in that Stone Age time still when it comes to solar design in modern homes .

So then you guys have to kind of compensate for that by making the panels smaller to fit into those little grooves . Why are we still so stupid ?

Our 470 is 1757 . So it's even smaller than those panels that have less output . And I think that's the best that we can actually do for the industry in terms of making installations flexible .

And when you consider that shading optimization that we have , you can put that in places where there's occasional shade or there's intermittent shade or maybe a stink pipe or something like that .

It still gives you a bit of flexibility to work around those hips that you talked about on the roof and hopefully we can work with our architect friends to just make those roofs more simple in the future

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So this is the first time probably we've been able to have a product that steps up the output and power but also delivers some safety and some shade management . So I think for the homeowner , this is one of the safest choices that you can put onto your roof .

And maybe you partner it with other safe technologies , like MLPE for example , and you have like a double safe system , which first time we can offer a double safe system . With this technology , of course , the yield is better . So if I'm a homeowner , at the end of the day I want that bill going down . How do I get the bill down ?

I maximize the energy generation on my roof across the day and I think research has shown experience has shown that the back contact panels , they make more energy per watt .

So even if you had the same size panel and of course ours are better for the size Even if you had that same output , you get more yield for the same nominal power or the same nameplate , power . So for a homeowner , I think it's all about being safe and better use of your roof and savings .

In terms of how we contribute to that from our nameplate power we don't have an advantage watt for watt over the Topcon technology . But where our advantage is is in that same two square meters . We're going to have a 470 watt panel there instead of a 440 . As the sunlight drops across the day , it doesn't produce a 440 watt of power from a 440 watt panel .

It produces less , let's say 200 . Well , because ours is a 470 panel , it'll make 220 from that same square meter area . So you will get more power per square meter in that low light period than you would from the older PERC P-type and N-type Topcon technology . But let's say they were both 440 watts . We wouldn't have an advantage in that situation .

The advantage comes from having more power in the space . So as you dial back the outputs because the engine was bigger to start with , we can drive more power out the back end .

So if you look at your power bill let's say it's $500 across the 90-day period , let's call it a 100-day period then essentially you're only looking at $5 a day of your power bill , but you get it at the end of the three months and it's $500 .

I mean I worked out on about a 10 kilowatt hour system that over the 20 years that you would have a 440 versus your 470 , plus the other advantages you're getting 80,000 kilometres more driving of an EV out of the difference of those two systems that from the ground look exactly the same .

If you saw a dollar coin on the side of the street every day , you'd pick that up every day , and that's the kind of benefits that you will see by putting on panels that put out more .

The second thing we need to be doing is just understanding the applications , so working with our partners to understand okay , how do we deal with , let's say , swimming pools penetrating more EVs ? What does that mean ? What provisions do we need to make ? Now , for two years down the track , of course , we've got the politics right .

We've got the election coming up , so that creates a little bit of uncertainty for some of our CNI customers , which is like your businesses and things like that .

So I think probably the industry , what they need to do is , in that March to May period in Australia , really focus on residential , helping our homeowners to do better and have some savings in the back end of this year and then regroup around the businesses after the election .

So normal solar panel will have metal on the front of the solar panel and that metal where it's there , granted there's not much metal , but it blocks the light getting in and it has some other effects as well . So we've taken that metal , we've put it on the back where the sun isn't . Can you show us ?

Yeah , so on the back all that metal is there and it's been scribed on by lasers . So this technology has been available in a sense for 20 , 30 years , but we haven't been able to do it at this fine gradient .

So this is really discreet , the way we cut these metal lines on the back here , and that lets us manage the shade that might occur on the front as well . So it has safety benefit , it has a shade benefit .

. Key is that Sometimes we have a concern about aesthetics , don't we ? Beautiful landscape , maybe a heritage home , Something like that can look a little bit better than the metal on the front and the shininess that you see on some of those metal contacts and so they come also with the black frame .

You know the solar heart with a big tank on the roof and they think of solar being obtrusive , whereas now it can actually be decorative . So that's really interesting .

And if you take this IKO full black panel and you put it against , let's say , other brands of full black , you actually see that that metal really stands out on those other panels , whereas ours obviously doesn't have that metal . So it really does look a lot better than some of the similar offers that have been on the market .

And I quite like a black panel .

So therefore , I would actually argue that aesthetics should play a role with literally any solar that's installed .

Now they'll put it on their school , whereas before they were hesitant . So it does open some doors for the industry . So you mentioned about challenges . One of the challenges can be aesthetics . Maybe it's a community . Maybe you were planning to put on the stock standard solar panels .

People didn't want it in that area , but now that they see it's more compatible with the environment , they're happy to accept it . So it's actually a way to accommodate our community and manage stakeholders that are looking at our projects .

That goes into that . So it's not so easy . So we're pretty confident that it will be hard for everybody to copy us . Of course there'll be some people might crack the code , let's say . But in a general sense , this is very hard to do . We've got a team of guys have been working on it for half of a decade .

That's not something you're going to be able to just pick up like it's a game of French cricket or something . This is something difficult to do . It's something that has involved input from people from Japan , from Australia , from Germany , from China . It's a multi-country effort . It's all sorts of robotics going into this . Very hard to emulate that .

So that makes better use of the panel . So panels we have on the market today they've got some gaps in them . The future panel that we're going to bring will reduce the amount of gaps on the panel . So what that means is more of the panel will generate power . Sometimes you hear that described as being a full screen panel , but we call it our infinite series .

So that's the next thing , right ? So we'd expect to have that on market towards the end of this year , start of next year . There's a certification process that's quite involved with Australia here . So just to get a stock standard panel approved takes months and months . We'd like to address that . That's an industry challenge .

And then the other thing , of course , is we've got those Provescott Tandem technologies coming down the track . What are they called Provescott Tandems ? All right , yeah , so basically what we're looking at is a layered panel that has different light absorption properties Again complex to manufacture , but we think we can manufacture that cost-effectively within five years .

That technology and one of the differences of ICO is that I'm talking to my colleagues in Germany . I'm going back to the factory in November . We're having a conference around this topic and we're seeing what's coming .

It's really encouraging that the whole industry will continue to grow and if you're looking for a partner in solar , you want someone who's got that vision and has a process to get better and stay strong in the market , and I think ICO offers that to us .

And then the other thing , of course , is being more of a buffer to the grid . So what that means is putting in batteries into our homes . So why does that matter ? Well , first thing is , in aggregate with an EV , with a heat pump , with a cooktop , you're potentially going to use more electricity than you used before .

Now the other thing is that you would like to have that battery charged . So , whereas before the solar , we typically designed that for daytime needs . So a typical house might use 20 kilowatt hours across the daytime and maybe another 10 at nighttime , something like that . In the past we haven't worried about the 10 at night .

We've just served that daytime need , haven't worried about nighttime . So now what we need to do is charge the battery to feed that nighttime load . Charging just means we need more solar generation . So that's why , with panel , it's more space efficient , so our power density will help you to generate more from the same rooftop than before .

And with that shade management technology , as you get things like bird poo on the roof and you get that stink pipe shadow or you get the power line shadow from the street , you'll be able to keep getting better yield from those panels that you are putting up and that will help you charge your batteries that can then operate your air conditioner , your cooktop and

all that stuff .

So maybe from an overall energy demand point of view , you need 20 panels on your roof , but there can be times you drain your battery down to zero and you want to recharge it super quick Because there's things like amber , which basically that means you sell the power in your battery to the grid at a profit , when the prices are high .

Yeah , so it might be that the clouds will come over the Sydney or Melbourne urban centres in the middle of the day and there's a demand for power that wasn't normally there . Okay , you can sell your battery's power to the grid . Come 2 pm , you want to refresh that for your nighttime use ?

Well , perhaps you actually need a slightly oversized solar array that can charge that buck up quick . So we're seeing that already .

Come to the fore that people need that high-efficiency panel like an IKO 470 in order to have a lot of generation capacity to recharge really quickly that battery in the back half of the day , and the same thing could be in the morning . Right , you've used up your battery overnight . You urgently need some power .

This can help you refresh your battery really quick , and we're seeing that with the Teslas . Right , they can take up to 20 kilowatts of panels on them . Some of the storage is five to 10 kilowatt hours . They are putting on the maximum array there just so they can charge that up really quickly .

You're talking about the Tesla Powerwall , not the car , of course Not the car no , the Powerwall . It's interesting in our circles like the car to some extent , with the Elon Musk connection there's people that love and hate him , right . But as soon as we talk about the Powerwall , that goes out the window . Everyone loves power wall , which is , which is fine .

We we love the technology that's on market now . We've got so many great options . You mentioned the end phase battery before . That's a really cool modular technology .

We've got the sig energy that we were talking about and we've got the tesla and all of these things just offer the customer so much flexibility that we didn't have what five years ago vpp , what amber .

Still want to get it down a bit , and that's really setting it apart from five , six years ago .

So our industry is actually going to save people a lot of money in the coming five , six years with these technologies .

I've worked out how many let's make it Shepparton how many solar systems are installed in Shepparton , and then worked out what the kilowatt hours were that all of those solar systems would generate every day , and it was hundreds of thousands of dollars in relatively small towns that the people locally didn't have to pay to electricity bills anymore because of the number

of solar systems they've installed .

But 2025 , cost of living is a big thing . Maybe solar is not as popular at the moment , or should it be more popular because electricity prices are going out and up ? What's your feedback from the industry ?

So , to put that in layman's terms , the stuff you got to do and the stuff you want to do right Now . You want to get a cup of coffee , but maybe you could make it at home with Nescafe . Okay , you skip the trip to Starbucks . If you want to do , for example , the Netflix , you know you want to watch a movie , okay , get it from .

Go down to Blacktown Library , rent yourself a DVD , skip your Netflix subscription . You can't get away from paying for your power bill . You may as well build an asset for yourself with the solar . So it doesn't matter what the economic climate is . If you have a power bill , you're better off going to solar in the vast majority of cases .

Now , obviously , you want to work with someone local who understands the local situation , someone trustworthy that's not going to rip you off , and a local solar installer that's been qualified , that's been in the game for a few years . They're going to give you that advice and 99% of those quality local installers are going to tell you if it's not right for you .

So I myself , when I've been an installer , when I've been selling , I've said no , no , no to lots of people , but for most people it's going to give them a benefit .

Maybe All of their daytime use of their house was actually night because they were working certain weird shifts , so they'd be getting up at 2 am and they'd be doing all their chores , you know , and there was no solar . Okay , maybe don't put it on . Batteries a few years ago , of course , weren't a thing .

But for most people , solar is going to offer them a saving and it's money they're spending anyway on power bills . That's the key point and that's why it's different and why , in the downturn of the economy , it still makes sense to do solar , because you're helping yourself . It's a saving .

It's different to spending on a pergola or something that doesn't give you an income or a return . This gives you a return . It's money you're spending anyway . It makes sense for most people .

So it doesn't matter what you buy If you buy a BMW , if you buy an LG television out of 10,000 of those items , some of them might have some issues that need some help with , and so we want to have partners that are going to help us , and so local installers using good products typically are more committed to helping that person they're going to see at

Woolworths in town than maybe a mass market operator that has overseas call center that is using the cheapest possible products .

Most Australians , when you talk to them , they don't like wasting food . They don't like wasting even the newspapers . You know they might use it to line the cat litter or whatever . But the thing is that if you put on cheap solar , invariably you're wasting materials .

So if you're going to put on a 415 panel when you could have put on a 470 , you're wasting glass . People don't like to do that in Australia . So I think I would say to the average customer have a 5% extra per day cost to go with a good product and a good installer . You'll get that in the savings from a system that works better .

And the other thing is you'll get that in the service down the track and you won't be wasting materials .

I want the best that's available right now . I think that's an easy thing for people to wrap their heads around . The ICO panels are the best , so I want that Right right .

In those countries They've looked at this solution and they really love what it can do for them . So that surprised me in the sense that it was a mature market . But it grew really quickly .

And in Australia I think I wouldn't say I'm surprised , but I'm comforted that my understanding is correct , that our installers are smart and clever and that they can wrap their heads around the new technologies as they come to market . So that's been a comfort in Australia and it's been a surprise in Czech Republic and in Germany and even in the Netherlands

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So what has happened over the last five years that maybe is not seen in the cities . In the rural environment , the connection costs are really off the hook . So we are talking to people in , let's say , Singleton , in the Hunter Valley , let's say places like Sanford . You've got properties where they don't have the power connection . They talk to the utility .

They say I would like to get my power on 110,000 , please . So now we've got the need to basically recreate the grid with an off-grid system . So we're seeing people in a tree change modality . They're coming from that urban environment . They've lived before in , let's say , newtown . Now they're moving to Tamworth . They don't want to give up anything .

They want the same lifestyle that they had in Newtown but they want to have it in Tamworth , where there's no grid at some locations . So we're seeing those really big systems going on to fund that , and that's where we can really help in lowering the cost of the ground mount and producing more power .

So sometimes you get one member of the family that are impacting that decision . So sometimes you get one member of the family is a nerd , doesn't care what it looks like , but you've got someone else who is concerned about that aesthetic . Well , we can help both those people . The nerd gets to have better performance .

The aesthetic-minded person in the family gets to have a better-looking system that they can accept .

I think that's really encouraging . Part of the ICO story is that we have those international partnerships . So , uniquely , ico has a research lab in Germany , so that's why I'm able to talk to people from Freiburg , from Constance , about solar .

Previously , although I've always been internationally minded , I've enjoyed talking to people in a past life in Thailand and in Vietnam and so on . This is the first job where I've had contact with ISC Constance . I've had contact with people from Freiburg , from our business and , of course , other parts of Europe , and we're doing that research in Europe .

So we're getting the best of the cutting edge thinking on solar in Europe . But also ICO has that investment in Australia . So we have a $4 million US partnership with a collection of universities here in Australia which includes ANU and UNSW , so we're making that investment in Australia .

I don't think any other business is making that sort of investment internationally in research in solar .

It's really exciting and we're hoping to do an event with our Adelaide installer partners around that August race .

And as a former student at UNSW in the PV Engineering School , we enjoyed Sunswift racing in that WSC and it's going to be fantastic just to see that sort of HSV , the sort of BMW M-Series of the solar world cars , here in Australia using our technology and we're looking forward to a victory .

In the past they were slow , but now they're right on that 130 kilometres in the Northern Territory there where that's the limit . So the question is just basically keeping the mechanics of the cars running . Absolutely no problem getting those cars up to the normal road speeds .

Okay , If I have the ICO panel , do I now sit at 798 or do I sit at 750 or 700 ? I mean , it's a tricky question , but what are we guys talking about ? 5% more , I mean that's already quite a lot , but what are we talking about ?

So we've looked over a period of time . How do they produce For the same roof area ? We're seeing a benefit of 12% . So if you put the 12 IKO panels on let's say the roof fits 12 panels you put 12 IKOs on there instead of the N-type panel From a competitor yeah , from a competitor .

So you're going to already get a benefit because back contact makes more anyway . So if the back contact panel power was the same so let's say it was a car engine , right , and you had a 2-litre Holden ours is like having a 2-litre turbocharged Subaru or something , so you get more out of it even though they're both 2-litre engines .

So if there was a 440 panel , which was a legacy technology , one of the older types , or if it was the same 440 without technology , it will make more energy for that power across the day . There'll be parts of the day , where you won't see as much benefit , but over the day it will make more energy . But the kicker is you fit more of these watts on .

So in that same car engine bay , instead of fitting the two litre engine , we're fitting the 2.4 litre engine . We're getting more power anyway . So what that delivers for you in the same space is 12% more energy for a given roof .

We have other benefits if there's shade there , but assuming it's a fully sunny roof that never gets dirty , then for the same power we'll see about a 5% to 6% uplift in the output . But because we can fit more power on there , the total benefit for that same size is about 12% extra generation compared to the old technologies like P-type and N-type .

So we particularly are talking about those cases where the roof is not infinite in size and most people In the electrified world of , let's say , electrified 2515 or we're going for the cooktops and the heat pumps and all that most people in that world are going to find the roof is their constraint .

Now you're moving from gas hot water to electric hot water , and then you're adding maybe from gas cooking to the induction or something , and then you start saying , okay , some of my EV I want to generate as well .

And then the second EV is coming and you're suddenly looking at saying I thought I had a 20 kilowatt system , which was enormous , and I'd love to have another five .

So I just went to a job at Sanctuary Downs here in Sydney and that's a rural hamlet , I guess you might say it's acreage property they were putting on 20 kilowatts of panels and they could only fit that on with our technology .

So they had a design spec'd out with a competing N-type panel could not fit the panels on , but with the IKO 470 , they were able to maximise that use of that roof . And that roof is full and this is in an acreage property , right ?

So we're talking massive houses and you still had this constraint because that SunGrow hybrid battery they were putting on it needs that generation . They got the pool , got other things there and without this solution it couldn't have been done . So this is an on-off thing for that particular installer to be able to do that project .

So every watt they install , there is a turnover for that . For their business so if you were trying to run a McDonald's shop , you would want to have hey , would you like fries with that ? Why are you doing that ? Well , you've got the same employees there , you've got the same cash registers , but you're trying to get $1 or $2 extra sale .

And don't forget some of the support , the rebates . They're around the panels right , not around the batteries . The more panels you can put on , the more that you can leverage that support and the grid will benefit .

So we have sent our panels to TUV Nord , which is a respected testing organisation , and so they have done testing where they gradually cover up parts of our solar cells and they show the benefit that our cells can provide you if there was bird poo on there or there was a vent or something like that .

And the second thing is that we've sent our panels to TUV Rhineland , which is another testing organisation , and they have given us the class A ranking for our shade management

. So , to put it another way , in shaded scenarios , there is no panel on the market that performs better than IKO . Iko's claim is we perform better in shade than any other panel . Now , can we make blood from a stone ?

But our claim is that if you have , for example , a small cell covered with bird poo and that it would activate the diodes that turn off parts of solar panels . So first thing , you need to dial back and understand that panels have things that protect them from shade damage in them . So the panels in a normal case are grouped into thirds .

Basically , you shade part of that third of a panel . It potentially can turn off that whole third of the panel . Even though you haven't shaded the whole third . It turns off a third to protect itself . Our panel helps us to just turn off the parts that are shaded and not the whole panel .

But there are scenarios where you've got so much of the panel shaded you might as well turn off that third . So that's what can happen when people assess this . But there's absolutely no doubt that the back contact technology offers shading benefits .

This is proven in university literature , it's proven by my personal experience in doing these testing and it's proven by our installers with putting it on the end phase and covering up bits and pieces and whatever . And we're building more and more resources to show that to people .

So we mentioned earlier Geraldton got to 49 degrees and you will see a marked difference in the performance of our panels compared to those 415 P-types that they were putting in just last year . And so many people still putting in these P types . It's ridiculous . I see these CNI projects going on businesses in Melbourne using a 575 .

In that same space we could be putting on a 630 , a 640 . It's crazy . It's a question of education , right ? So every time I see people doing silly stuff I just smack myself in the face because I haven't told enough people about these benefits .

So look , yes , I think business owners , especially in commercial , where they're usually three steps away from the installation process , they really should ask for the latest technology , because their system is turned on and already it's obsolete .

And even on commercial roofs , where people think I've got ample of space , you think forward as a business owner or property owner , in 20 years time I will want to feed 40 charging stations for the staff that's working there .

And I got crappy panels that were not efficient on my roof and now I don't have the space anymore to add to it to actually supply what my needs are . So think about the future now .

And that's just mental . Why would you do something for the environment , like solar , and not choose the most efficient use of materials ? And our embodied energy is less too . So going back to that question of metal , marcus , which you pointed out before , there's no metal on the front side here . So what does that mean ?

It means no shading right , more light can get in . All the old ladies , all the little kids , they can all understand . No shade on the front , more light gets in . Okay , happy days .

But what you can't see , just looking on it , is that we've taken out one of the steps of production , and that production step is sintering metal into the front side of the silicon . So you say , what's sintering ? Sintering is basically cooking . So if you cook something at a high temperature , you're going to use energy .

Now , our panel doesn't have that process , so it doesn't use that amount of energy , so it has lower embodied energy from the get-go . But then because you've got more watts for every sheet of glass , then you've got less energy input to make the same output . So the energy payback on these panels is much , much better .

And as a business , if you're putting on solar , you want to save money but you want to help the environment . You've got this ESG sort of social responsibility part to what you're doing .

So again , that's down to us to talk with our consultants , work with some of those great people in the industry like Beam that are doing projects like Green Peak Energy and those guys to just get that information out to the industry that when you put on ABC panels you're using less materials , you've got less embodied energy and again , we've got certification for

this . So I can share with you that offline , I can share with the interested installers and the business owners . Why would you not do that ? Like I'm not talking ? We're not talking about , as we said , rolls Royce prices . We're talking about Toyota prices for these products . You've just got to be aware of it .

It is a game changer from where we used to be , even just four years ago . Congratulations for that .

They do that so they make the most profit . They don't care about the end user . Our installers do care .

No , no , no , they scammed you right on the ads . Jeez . Anyway , on that one , go aside . Australians are gamblers sometimes , but I don't know why they gamble with their family's safety in the look of their house .

They've got all these hassles in their social life and we just have to make sure that the information is clear and concise .

Wouldn't your little voice at the back of your head go that's potentially too good to be true , and it always is . And then those companies piss off . I've done a count . About two years ago there was 840 companies who sold cheap solar and then , when it failed soon after with the long warranties , they pissed off .

Does it have the electrical license on there when the installer comes ? Are they registered ? So we do need that sort of due diligence from the end users , and I think watchers of this podcast are going to be in that bracket . So thank you for your service .

Every time you ask to see the license and check the documentation is correct , you're actually helping the other customers that don't look at this stuff . Then , check the documentation is correct . You're actually helping the other customers that don't look at this stuff .

And there's a bigger question of education around how to be a consumer and how our watchdogs can enforce these things . But at the end of the day , one of the easy ways is to look at resources like your Energy Answers , to look at what did your neighbor do ? Ask them more questions . Understand who is doing well in the local community that you can buy from .

I think those are some of the very simple questions to ask and that doesn't take long to find out Correct . Yeah . Now some people nevertheless say there are some solar knockers and they'd say , oh , in places like Tassie and all that , it's really not worth getting solar . What's your opinion about solar and solar friendliness in Australia ?

Well , hobart has the same solar resource as Sicily , or at least you can say it's a little bit better . If we go to Launceston , well , in Lonnie we've actually got similar to Melbourne . So it's not the case that there's any downside to installing in your Devonports , in your Burnies , in your Launcestons . It's similar to Melbourne from a solar resource .

We're getting great results in Tasmania .

One thing you'd like to know about Tasmania , of course , is they do have a size rule there , so you've got that 39 square metre rule . I didn't know that . Yeah , so you're actually capped on how big your solar array is from the point of view of government approval .

So if you were to go over this 39 square meters , then you've actually got to do a development application . So that's an equity question . So I personally find that to be oppressive to Tasmanians , because if you were in Sydney you could put 10 kilowatts on . Why , as a Tasmanian , where a lot of times you've got more space , can you not do this ?

And the same is true for the ground mounts . They've got a restriction on the ground mount size , which would be I think farmers in Tamworth would be up in arms if they were getting their size restricted and having to do applications to council to put these things in . So we want to address that .

But to go back to the question , the resource in Tasmania is ample for solar . Obviously , we've got parts of Australia that are exceptionally sunny . It's not the case that Tasmania isn't sunny , it's that the other places are crazy sunny . So Cairns is crazy sunny , but we're seeing great savings out of Tasmanian systems , a lot of off-grid systems .

In Tasmania You've got a lot of windy roads , a lot of areas . There's no grid and we're seeing paybacks there that are in the sort of four or five year period , which is entirely reasonable for panels that are going to last multiple decades .

So , even though it does benefit ICO because ICO actually can put the most panels on the roof or the most power on the roof in Tasmania at the moment so if you're in Tasmania , you'll be mad not to use ICO , because you can get that 470 or 475 and you can get more power without having to do that application .

And an application , by the way , it's not just fill in a form , right ? This is not like send an invite to your Facebook friend , right ? You've got to get a structural engineer to assess . So we're talking about a number of costs and a waiting period .

So every time that you're waiting to put solar on , that's of , of course , savings you're missing out on , right ? So it's a penalty basically .

At the moment , as things stand , putting on ICO is a no-brainer in Tasmania because you've got those 470s and 475s that can fit on 30 to 35 more watts than a 440 . Why would you use a 440 in Tasmania ? It makes no sense .

You can still buy a $465 , so it's going to be cheaper than the $470 and $475 . So , essentially , if you've got a project that has the space , but you still want that shade management , you still want the safety , you can use those $465s no problem . The All Black blacks , of course , they do have a lower output .

So the whole industry with all blacks , they have a lower output per panel . So we've got that 455 . We're hopeful at some point to push all of our panels up in output across this year . But the thing is it's already amazing .

So it would be sort of like saying I'm not going to buy a car this year because in three years time there'll be another car , like there's always something better in the world , right , but you're going to get savings from today .

So I've got first generation panels at my house and I've got some second gen just for testing and so on , but I'm not waiting for the third gen to have some ICOs right . So I don't think we need to wait for the next best thing . What we have already offers the best safety , the best use of roof space , and it offers you that yield and the savings .

You don't have to wait for any of those things .

So there's no reason to say if you put it on tomorrow , it won't be amazing .

That's purely bullshit . So what's actually happened in Australia is that the Australian market got a scale that enabled the cost to be really low . So in Australia we've got the lowest costs on the front end for solar in the developed world , and then on the back end , which is to say the price paid by consumers , we've also got the lowest costs .

And then on the back end , which is to say the price paid by consumers , we've also got the lowest costs . And by having that solar installed we've actually avoided putting on coal power stations . But I think we also got one of the highest electricity prices . It depends who you're going to compare us to .

So if you're going to compare us to the Tennessee Valley Authority in the US , they've got a cheaper price . If you're going to compare us to most of Europe , that's just not true . Our prices are cheaper , particularly on the East Coast , south Australia a bit different . They've got a higher cost there . Some of it comes down to population .

So let's look into the bill . What are the costs ? A lot of it is distribution . Why is the distribution cost high ? The country is big . So if you were to say what is the cost from the solar farm before it goes onto the grid , it might be 5 cents a kilowatt hour , but you're paying 20 cents . Why ?

And if you get a nuclear power station or if you get whatever , you're still going to have those distribution costs on top of that . And then , if you want to go back to the subsidies and what that's got for our community , we haven't had to build a new power station on the east coast for something like a decade .

If you look at the newest power station , it's actually in WA and it's still more than a decade old . I think it was 2010 or something like that .

So maybe 15 years old that plant , 15 years old that plant , and so we've got to look at it in aggregate that we've been able to avoid building a whole lot of new power stations , which would have been a cost and would have been passed on . So you compare it to a lot of those countries that do have lower power bills than us .

In the main , they don't have a privatised electricity setup . The places with lower costs state-owned operators . You want to talk about China state-owned so you've got to weigh that up . How does that come about and what are the drivers for it ? But in aggregate , the rebates are going down , which is a good thing .

So as the industry gets more efficient at delivering solar for our community , we've reduced the support and it's going to keep

going down . So , from one angle , if you're a householder , get your solar on now , because the rebates are always going down and they're going to zero , and we want that .

So they've got a set of rules that protect you from a safety point of view and also from an amenity point of view , like access and things like that . So you've got to understand can I put that there ? So that's one of the factors . That is a go no-go for doing batteries . The second thing is your energy use at nighttime . Is it material ?

If you don't use any power at nighttime , then it might not make sense for you . But for most people that have a household with some nighttime activity and got a bit of space for the battery , it's going to make sense for you . And I don't think that was true two to three years ago .

It was more of a sort of early adopter , sort of a hobby thing , but now that we have Amber and technologies like that that get the most out of the batteries financially . New South Wales battery rebate . New South Wales battery rebate . New South Wales Battery Rebate . You're able to make a contribution to the stability of our grid and you're able to save money .

What's not to like ?

Marcus , I think a lot of people looking forward into that uncertain world , you're sort of thinking oh , I'm seeing more storms , I'm seeing more bushfires , I'm seeing political instability . Maybe the power might go out for some reason , terrorist attack , who knows what . By having that battery there , I'll be able to cover myself till those issues are solved .

If we look at the vast majority of blackouts around the world , they're short-term . They can be covered by a small battery . Keep those meat cold in the fridge . Keep the ice cream from melting , keep the green final turned on .

The control is in the hand of our grid , so our grid can dial back and turn off some of these systems as needed . It's not something that happens often , but it can happen if it was necessary to protect the network .

So all of those controls are really in the hands of local people and the data , as I say , in vast majority of cases is using a service like Amazon Web Service . It's typically in Australia or it's in Singapore .

If you can see that you've got a high temperature coming and you can remotely turn on your air conditioner and you've got solar to do it , why would you not flush the house with cool air so when you get home it's not hot ? Like this is amazing . We're living like kings .

Like the average homeowner in Australia who has a solar system , has an air con and has a swimming pool is living like the royalty of 50 , 60 years ago . Like this is amazing . We should take full advantage of it . Don't be afraid of it .

If you're concerned about the data , ask your installer for a solution that has data stored in Singapore or Australia and that's absolutely accessible from a price point and a practical point of view .

Is this just people who are raising money for their pet projects and they're Googling the industry , or is there really super solar coming around the corner ?

And the fact is that , of all the technologies , solar panels that is to say a glass sheet with some cells on it is just made in such vast quantities that other types of solar , like solar paint or solar tiles , are going to struggle to keep up with that . There's so much knowledge around how to install these panels quickly and well and also to connect them .

That makes it practical . So if you have solar paint , how are you going to connect that ? Different parts of the roof are going to have different generation properties . It'll be hard to actually make a system with that . So all of those things essentially are pie in the sky . Crystalline silicon is 99.9% of the solar market .

It's going to stay that way , which is to say glass . Solar panels with a frame are the future as far as the eye can see .

This product looks amazing , but they've had to custom cut all those cells to fit onto the leaf , because the cells are made such that they fit onto solar panels . The solar panel size is such that it fits in a container . All of these things are set up for solar panels .

So trying to do things like that are going to be hard to make on the front end , and recycling those things is a nightmare . How do you recycle the solar paint once it's failed ? You're going to scrape it off with a pooper scooper , or how are you going to get that off and recycle it With the solar panels ? We've already know how we can recycle it .

Or , with the price of solar panels being so cheap , they could actually become fences .

Maybe on one side of those fence there could be some cables that kids could play with . So you would need a solution to enclose that . But 100% likely to see that .

And again , if you're doing that sort of an application , you're going to be using ICOs , you're going to be using MLPE , which is like end-phase or solar edge , just because you're going to have a lot of obstructions , you're going to have closed lines , you're going to have trees next to it , so ours would be the best suited product for that .

And if we want to talk about buildings , there's still so much low-hanging fruit on the top of buildings that isn't installed . I think you're going to see a lot of that before you see mass market installs on the side of walls .

And , as you know , the performance of vertically mounted panels is reduced in Australia compared to in other markets where the sun angle is a little bit different , so our sun angle typically is very high in the sky , so that sort of tends to encourage you to do a rooftop install that's facing up .

And the other thing , of course , is the access is terrible in some of those high-rise buildings . For what they call the curtain wall You've basically got to hang down on cables to install those . The labour cost in Australia is very high . So I don't think you'll see brownfield installs on existing buildings .

On the side you might see some new projects where they're going . On the side you might see some innovation in sort of if there was a new opera centre or a new basketball stadium or something , you might see some innovation there , but ostensibly it's decoration , not practical , right , right .

So we've got quite a lot of installs now with the ICO product there and the feedback is good , installs now with the IKO product there and the feedback is good . And the other thing of course , is we've got modelling from our consultants in those areas is also very favourable for our product .

But why the panels excel in New Zealand is you do have parts of New Zealand that get hail and the hail performance of the IKO is superior to other types of panels on the market . So again , that's been tested through TUV . So TUV Rhineland tested to the Swiss VKF standard .

You got excellent performance if there were to be snow cover on the panels as well , and then you've got that appearance right . So in New Zealand you've got a beautiful country and so amenity is highly valued in New Zealand . So the aesthetics of the full black panel do really well in New Zealand . So that's why in New Zealand .

So the aesthetics of the full black panel do really well in New Zealand . So that's why in New Zealand our top seller is actually the 460 watt all black . And because we love New Zealand , we've actually given them the best all blacks in the world . So they've got the highest output of our range in the world .

So we launch our high output full black in New Zealand . So we really look after New Zealand compared to other businesses , sort of like an also ran . Like they don't sort of care about New Zealand . We really love Kiwis and what we can do there because of their understanding of nature . Well , you nearly wear an all-black shirt .

Yeah , well , I don't have my MacPak on today , but I typically love a good hiking garment from New Zealand , like if it's not icebreaker , it's a backpack . So love everything about tramping in New Zealand .

And that understanding of nature I just think is more prominent there and that's why they sort of want the systems to blend in a bit better with the local environment .

I mean , I don't even ever understand it , because every time I go into a factory the people go home and they smile and all of that . So I don't actually know where that whole angle comes from . But are there ethical concerns with your panel or others ?

So they're pulling out all the stops to stop panels from other countries coming into the American market to preserve the ability for their industry to be able to make solar . If you look at t-shirts , suddenly they don't care right . So Walmart's full of t-shirts from China .

It's not like they are not buying things from China and they're worried about the labor in the T-shirt factories or something . Having said that , there's some reasons to be concerned about labor in general . So , as a responsible business , every business needs to be interested in this topic , and that's why we visit our factories regularly .

So in a past life , I would visit the factory on occasion legally . So in a past life , I would visit the factory on occasion . In the current business , we're visiting from Australia to our factories every quarter . So we're doing that as a due diligence from the Australian side here through to our factories .

If we look at the ICO business , what's really unique is the involvement of the management with the coalface . So what I mean by that is , the chairman is eating in the cafeteria with the assembly line workers .

So in a lot of businesses what you actually see the white collar staff in one building in Shanghai , the blue collar staff at the factory somewhere else In ICO . If you go to the Iwu factory there the white collar workers eat with the factory staff . There's that interaction , there's the understanding of the other person's life and how that is .

And the other thing is that we're able to go and see the dormitories , to see the facilities for our staff as well , and a lot of our staff , surprisingly , drive to work . So there's plenty of them that ride bicycles as well . But you go to the Jewel High factory , what you see is a car park there .

So people are compensated to the extent that a lot of them are actually driving to work . So this sort of vision that's perpetrated by some of the North Americans , it's just not really factually correct . And of course we look at our sourcing and the regions in China where our materials come from . And ICO is unique . We can't actually just buy any silicon .

We are using the silicon that has a very low level of impurity , in fact , so it's a high resistivity silicon . So our suppliers are pretty discreet in terms of the supply chain for the ABC .

So we can see very clearly which suppliers are going to supply us , that they're coming out of Sichuan , that they're coming out of Inner Mongolia , coming out of Yunnan and not coming from regions of concern . So our profile in terms of modern slavery is amazing . So it's definitely , if not the best , in the industry .

It is at the cutting edge in this space and that's why we take installers from Australia to our dormitories , to our cafeterias , to our amenities , to our factories and everyone comes back amazed and the conditions there are at the cutting edge of the industry in China .

What I want to be doing is providing enough information and , assuming that information's correct , that they'll make that choice of their own accord . That's far , far better .

So things like ammonia and hydrogen , potentially , as the cost of energy goes down , so the cost of solar generation goes down , they will come back to the fore as a store of energy . And we're seeing already applications like shipping , where they're using things like ammonia , which is like a kind of coagulated hydrogen .

I guess you might say that's being used as a fuel source that's potentially renewable , really exciting . Hydrogen at the moment , of course , is challenged by storing of hydrogen . So I remember as a little boy at Tsinghua University , the bus there . The hydrogen would just disappear Like it leaches out because it's just one atom , right .

But anyway , going back to the topic of solar and its role compared to , say , wind and other technologies , where it wins out is some of those are really complex . You want to do a hydro dam , you need some really amazing engineers .

You need people with experience working with the concrete to pour it just right so it doesn't set in a way that cracks , and so on . Same thing with the wind turbines , lots of foundations , you've got to shut the road , all this sort of thing .

Solar is modular . So it's like Lego , marcus , like earlier today we were playing with a Lego set here , weren't we ? And basically that just clicks together and any baby can click together . Lego and solar and batteries are sort of like the Lego bricks on the Lego roof of our future homes .

Like , basically , if you look at the SunGrow system you mentioned earlier , it literally clicks together like Lego , and that makes it quick , it makes it easy to understand , makes it easy to maintain and it makes it easy to transport and move around .

So you've got something that you potentially could carry on a hippie's bicycle and bring it to the house and install . Like in a world where there was ponies as the only available transport , you could still install solar . In fact , donkeys carry solar up the mountain in some of the Himalayan regions .

So what I'm trying to say is it's modular , so it's easy to do the same product in big and small systems . So if you were talking about that wind turbine on your house , marcus , it'd be a small turbine , perhaps a one kilowatt turbine . If you want to do the one for the wind farm , it's going to be a two megawatt turbine or even bigger .

With the solar , it's basically the same concept . You put a thousand panels up at Kmart or you put 20 up at your house . You put five inverters at Kmart , you put one at your house . You put 50 batteries at Kmart , you put one at your house .

So all of that knowledge around residential installs can be leveraged to do big projects , and that's why solar is going to win . Solar , together with batteries , is 100% the future . From a cost , practicality and speed point of view .

We can get you up to speed on installing solar in a very short period of time , as opposed to some of those more complex technologies , which are great technologies , but they're just more complex , they take more planning , they take more approvals , they're going to take longer and a lot of times they need other sites . So what do I need ?

To put solar on your house ? I need the existing roof you already have . If I want to put a hydro dam in , I've got to dam the lake .

It's going to go on the existing rooftops , it's going to go on the existing car park areas , so the footprint is not going to be vastly increased as opposed to if I wanted to put in , let's say , solar thermal . Even I'm going to need big collectors and big mirrors in the desert or something I'm going to need to soak up heaps of land .

Now there is some solar doing that , but most of it won't be that .

So we've got wonderful distributors in Australia , like SolarJuice , like AC Solar Warehouse , sol Distribution and TradeZone , and they are doing video training through , for example , smart Installer . So SAA has their training regimen . We're part of that . Solar Cutters we're part of that .

This year we're excited to go around with SIA and we just want to be helping our installers get the best from the product and give the end user the best result .

So , whether that's from a safety point of view talking about those hooks on the roof whether that's from a layout point of view making sure the panels are well supported we're very committed to training and we've probably done more training last year than perhaps in a past life have done in a decade . It's been a very important part of our success .

. Now I see some panel manufacturers now moving into the all-in-home solution . So they maybe started with a panel and now they're throwing a home energy management system in it and a battery sometimes , and this and that . Are you guys kind of moving away from panels and then suddenly offering a whole plethora of items ?

Obviously , as batteries become more and more a part of the market , I'm not sure where that will go , but the track record in Australia has been that the inverter and battery manufacturers are better at making inverters and batteries and , from our point of view , we see a lot of expertise in our partners with specific brands and we think they should just keep doing

that and use our panels to get the best out of those best solutions . So , from our standpoint , we're going to focus on solar panels and let the batteries be done by the battery companies and the inverters done by the inverter companies .

But the way it looks to us and the dialogue we've had with people like SunPower , with people like SunGrow , people like BYD Fronius , people like Tesla they've just got so much amazing technology there . We're better off to just use the stuff that maybe SolarEdge has already built or Enphase has already built .

I got five guys walking in and each one of the five will tell me while their inverter solution is the best , while their panel is the best , and they come up with all these little advantages and so on and so forth , and by the end the end customer is a little bit confused and doesn't really know how they should judge all this . Yeah , what would you say ?

When it comes to product , what are some of the golden rules ?

So we really believe in having a presence here in the Pacific . So we think that if you're looking at a panel , first of all you want to know have they invested in the country where they're trying to make business ? What's their commitment and their roots here to Australia and to New Zealand ? And I would say that if they've got local entity , that's really key .

So does the panel company that you're buying from have local entity ? Are they paying payroll tax and all that stuff here in Australia ? Do they have that ABN set up ? Do they have a 1300 number that you can call outside of it ? Let's say the installer touch wood wouldn't happen , right .

But let's say they got injured or something that couldn't help you , could you reach out to that manufacturer through a 1300 number ? So I think that shows commitment .

Local entity , offices in the 1300 number , engineers that can help you really key at some of the references on , like your Energy Media or other sites , where they have a list of companies that are reputable and have been shown to support the local industry and the end users . After we've done that , I'll be looking at your application .

So do you have any prospect of the panels getting dirty or is there any shading ? You're going to want to look for a panel that has a shade management solution , perhaps also with an MLPE , so that could be a Fronius with a Tygo , it could be an Enphase whatever . And then the other thing you want to look at is again back to the installer .

So what's their local presence ? What's their commitment ? What kind of strategy are they using to make a good system ? So can they show you why their system will last longer ? So it might be they have a strategy to keep the inverter out of the sun .

It might be that they use sealants that have a long lifetime or a conduit strategy that keeps it out of the sun , something like that . So what's their strategy ? So the golden rule local support , fit for purpose , right ?

So if you've got shade , some kind of shade management technology , and then the other thing , of course , is making the best use of your roof . So are you able to get the system size you want out of your roof ? And I would say , look for the panel that's going to give you that .

And then , what are the concerns of your neighbours and perhaps your partner in terms of aesthetics ? Do you need to address that ? So sometimes you're going to have a panel array . It's not facing the street . Use a 470 panel , it's facing the street . You want to use an all black 455 , something like that .

It's a tricky question , but what's your feeling that you've been with IKO now for a bit what that company is really all about ?

So with Chairman Chen , dr Chen , what we were able to achieve is that he wants to meet with SolarJuice , he wants to talk to our installers . We've got Henry , our VP , coming out to meet our installers that are visiting our factory .

We've got Michael from our leadership team coming over to All Energy and meeting with installers and hearing their concerns about the packaging , and I think that just shows a really sort of down-to-earth interest in the common man if I can use that expression common person , and that's just sort of a humbleness that I think will pay dividends for our network , as we

are able to feedback these concerns to the management of the company . And when I'm going back to China , I'm finding there's an appetite for that .

So not only am I asking for the opportunity to meet with the leadership and I've met with our leadership multiple times , like in the one year that I've been in ICO since last year , I've met with management multiple times , like senior , senior management , as opposed to in other countries , other companies it might happen every few years , you know and whereas it's

multiple times this time . So there's that openness . Now I'm asking for appointments but on the flip side , they're asking to talk to our people here in Australia . They're saying , when our distributors come to China , ask them to come and see us . When our installers are in China for whatever reason , come see our factory .

It's just a welcoming and I guess you might say a two-way street instead of the one-way street . So a lot of companies they just want to push product on people and they don't want to have that relationship . I do really sense that there is a quest for a connection from our management and , as I say , I'm talking to factory at least weekly .

Just that sort of interaction is more intense , I would say , at ICO compared to some other businesses and I know there's a lot of businesses do this really well . But I've just been really inspired by that .

So if you've got a high labour cost , let's say you want to put up a car park well , you're going to have to assemble that car park . You've got the cost of the concrete and what have you ? You've got the EWP higher and all that . Using our product , you're going to be able to shave some of those costs and again , you're going to cut waste .

So there's a sales component as well as a practical install component . When you're a commercial solar business interfacing with IKEA and you're a commercial solar business interfacing with ikea and you're able to say I'm going to use five percent less glass , that's really compelling for ikea to hear that . Um , so , because they got their sustainability goals .

So the labor aspects of our product are really compelling . You've got the environmental aspect is compelling , plus it's going to be cheaper to install , plus it's going to give the end user better energy savings . So if you're able to have this win-win-win , that's super compelling . Another scenario we see a lot of is the roof is constrained .

We want to get the maximum on this roof because there's a PPA . So PPA is just basically a project that's going to do well if there's more energy generation , because our product generates more energy per square meter . If you've got a constrained roof , you're better to put ours on . You'll get more energy and the PPA will be more viable .

Maybe it's a high-rise building . You've got quite a varied roof up there , with lots of antennas and what have you . We're going to be able to fit around that with our 470 , compared to other 470s that are bigger on the market . So if you look at the 475 on the market right now , that panel is something like 1900 long . Ours is 1757 , so it's shorter .

You can fit it in more places . You can fit it in the lift to carry it up . So you've also got a lot of access challenges that we're going to solve for CNI operators and that's why we're seeing 300 kilowatt jobs going in , two megawatt jobs going in car parks going in with our product because of the labour savings , the space savings and the access .

On the legacy old panels that you used to have , hours don't show that same issue . So again , assuming they're not like footballs and little pyramids falling out of the sky or something , then if the glass isn't broken , what we're seeing is that cells are staying good on our product what they're more flexible and they're less likely to just crack .

So if we look at old types of panels , like a P-type panel or another legacy panel that's the N-type Topcon , those , when they're manufactured to get the metal to bond to the silicon , they cook it at a higher temperature to sinter the silver into the silicon . We don't have to do that so we don't get as brittle . And again , this is not unique to IKO .

Any back contact cell will in general offer you that property . So because they're not brittle , they're more flexible to those impact stresses that you see with hail . So that's really compelling if you've got a business owner who's not necessarily getting hail in the area , but they've just got these concerns right .

Anytime they do a project , they don't want to look bad , they want to look good . So , choosing our product , the business owner can look good , the installer has a point of difference , so they win the job and they make a sustainable business to support all of their customers .

Our distributors are ordering as much as they can ahead of time and we're seeing good levels of stock . So we're sitting here in January , february 2025 . We've got excellent stocks around the country at this point in time and we're working with our team to always keep stock on the shelf . From time to time , specific models at certain distributors will run out .

That happens to all the brands . We are in constant dialogue with sell-through reports to understand how our distributor's been selling down what's on the water to try and fix that . We're letting them have access to our local stocks where their stock is delayed on the port or on the water . So you have a buffer stock here , don't you ? Yes , that's right .

So right now , we're holding just 10 megs as buffer and that's purely for buffer . Like most of the stock the installers are getting is from the distributor's own orders coming on their own ships .

We do have challenges in places like Darwin , where we don't have warehousing support , and that's the same for all the manufacturers , and what we're doing is just maintaining that dialogue . So instead of having like 50 distributors and trying to keep on top of that , we've just got a key network of distributors that we can work well with .

So that's our strategy Keep that supply managed well and keep that buffer stock there , have a range of products at a range of distributors . So you've got options if you need to , and to make sure that those distributors have good inverter partners . So when you go to one of our distributors , they have good accessories to go with your panels .

They'll have the Clenergy and the Shledder racking . They're going to have the SunGrow inverters . They're going to have those solutions that you're looking for . So that's been really key in setting up our network and I think all of our partners are very responsible partners as well . So some of the businesses they don't resource their teams adequately .

Our distributors are very focused on doing that and we're having those interactions with them .

So I mean , they can watch this podcast and they'll probably get a lot of knowledge out of it , but what's your strategy to educate the installers about all the advantages ?

That can be on-site , it can be off-site . Some of the teams they just love to do on-site training , so touch and feel very tangible . There are some reasons to do on-site training with our product because we can take you through exactly how does it look and all this kind of thing . How's the feel of it ?

And particularly as we have new products coming , like the lightweight panel , you might want to pick that up and see how it is in your hands . I didn't know you were getting a lightweight panel coming , yeah , so that's hush hush just for your ears , marcus , but that's on the way to Australia . Cc's pending at the moment .

We've already got the IEC certification and that's going to be great for cool rooms . It's going to open up a whole range of new applications for panels because it'll be having a frame but being light , so you can use the same racking as you've been using , but it won't be as heavy . So that's going to be fantastic .

You can carry two up onto the roof at once , perhaps , instead of one panel .

But can you rattle down all the key advantages that I would get as an end customer or as an installer if I choose an ICO panel ?

about . So one of the challenges for our guys is to shut up about all the benefits , right . But if I can just start with the three key things , so the first one , of course , as you said , local support . I think that's amazing . Not every brand has that .

Some of the brands on the market that people push they don't have an office , no , abn , all that stuff and they don't make a contribution through the taxation system nothing , they just like mosquito sucking on the industry . The taxation system nothing , they just like mosquito sucking on the industry .

Now , apart from that local support angle , which is key , you've got the efficiency right . So efficiency is a feature , but the benefit it gives you is that use of space right , so we're going to make the best use of your roof . Third thing is the yield . We're going to make more energy from the watts that you put on your roof .

So if you've got the same nameplate power , we're going to make more energy from the watts that you put on your roof . So if you've got the same nameplate power . We're going to make more energy than other brands , but from the point of view of the space , we're going to make the most energy from that same space when compared to other brands .

So those are really key , right . So you've got that local support , you've got that use of space is the best and you've got the most savings from that energy . So that's really the key top three points . But it's layers on a cake , right . So we've got more . It's a bit like the DemTel , you know . Wait , there's more . We've got the safety right .

So , because we've got the back contact and the way we make the panel , it doesn't get as hot as other panels . So many people don't know this , but there are situations where you can have bird poo or something on a panel and it can happen that parts of the panel get very hot as hot as 150 degrees Ours 100 degrees much cooler .

So you've got less fire risk , right . So why is that ? Well , because we've got shade management . So now we've got another benefit right . So benefit number five we've got that shade management . And that shade management is unique to our product . So we were the inventors of that technology in terms of the mass market production of it . So that's really good .

And then you've got the benefit of tier one . So you're dealing with a top-notch company . So as a homeowner , we're looking for that peace of mind , and we're already getting peace of mind from the safety right . So the IKO panels have safety benefits compared to others . But we're dealing with a tier one company .

So tier one is just sort of saying this is a big , sizable company that has the wherewithal to be here going forward to support projects , right ? So if you're a bank and you want to finance a project , you won't just finance any project . You're going to finance panel manufacturers that you can rely on , and that's where the tier one comes in .

So we're tier one .

So you can't see this when you pick up a panel , but I can share with you that behind our product is that engineering input from our engineers in Australia . So we've got four engineers here in Australia and that's feeding back into the design of the product . So you're getting a product that is localised before it hits the shelf .

So that means that there's a better chance of it lasting the distance on your roof . So then , coming back to benefit , I think we're at benefit number seven now . We've got that warranty right . So we've got the 25-year product warranty . So that's going to give you again peace of mind for two and a half decades with that panel .

And then we come down to the components that are in the panels , right ? So we've got the Swiss connectors . We've got the MC4 from MultiContact or Stauble , so we're using the best connectors on our panels that you can find on the market . And then , of course , we've got that environmental benefit .

So looking , I think , at benefit number number nine , now we're not wasting materials . So if we go back to the use of glass , because our panels are more space efficient , they use space better every time you use our panel instead of a competing product , you're using five percent less glass it just in general raw material less , isn't it ?

yeah , less to recycle down the track 100 , and then , if I can wrap up with number 10 , it's that ESG piece .

So this is like we've got that , what I would call environmental presence , in terms of it takes less energy to make this product in the first place , and you've got that concern for labour and making sure that the way that our product is made is responsible . So those are my 10 , marcus .

There's actually more , but I don't want to bore people to death with that , but the good news is that it is like layers on a cake . There's so much to know , and if an installer , let's say , was dealing with a kindergarten , well , the safety is going to be more important . Perhaps .

If we're dealing with , maybe , a farmer who has an off-grid system running a pump , well , now we want to know about that yield and the time of day .

It means maybe people were worried about going solar from a looks point of view . You've got that beautiful winery . You haven't had a product that you've been attracted to until now . Okay , put on the IKO full black . Perhaps you're doing some kind of pumping . There's trees nearby , there's shading . You're not sure if it's going to work .

Now you can go and trial using perhaps the IKO solution there to help you with that shade management . So there is a lot of ways we're opening doors and sometimes you don't always think of them because there's so many doors we're opening at the moment .

You're probably going to be zapped because you can't remember them all . You've got so many bloody advantages .

We're wasting their effort if we don't share these accolades . And we need to make sure to open all the doors for our installers , because our Australian installers they're hardworking , they're on the roof in the sun every day .

We need to make their life easy from a sales point of view , and everything they can know about the panels will help them to maintain that viability of their business . And I know that our installers want to be there for the homeowners in the future .

Okay , now I really appreciate it . It shows your knowledge , it shows your passion , it shows your understanding of the product . I really wish you all the success . All the installers who have really flogged to IKO have really given very positive feedback . It's not like the product looks on Monday lightly blue and on Tuesday it's a bit more black .

There's consistency in the supply . So I hear a lot of positive about it and really thank you a lot for sharing and coming here today .