James Sturch Reveals Why Our Power Bill Is So Expensive - EP 40

So you're saying more renewables . I'm saying absolutely more renewables and really to stop the expansion of coal mines and to reduce the amount of extraction of coal and natural gas and everything else . But again , you look at the debates around energy policy . Most of them are still trying to justify let's use more coal .

Because over the last three years , instead of lower electricity bills , we've actually got quite a bit higher . What's the reason ? How can we fix it ? So I've invited James Sturge , who has been in the solar and energy space for quite a while , and he possibly gets it a little bit more than me .

So I want to debate with him what we can actually do in Australia to possibly give end consumers , give our manufacturers , possibly give end consumers , give our manufacturers , give really the people who rely on employing others and using energy , a chance to actually get this down a bit . Is there actually hope ?

Hello , thanks for our podcast here today about energy , energy pricing , energy systems , all of that kind of stuff . So , look , I'm very simple . I don't get many things , but I get that . At the moment , I hear that we're going to have a gas shortage , but we are , I think , the second biggest gas exporter in the world .

Are we locked in in long-term contracts , giving it away for nothing and then screwing ourself ?

You know , put to one side climate change and you know the impact of that level of extraction and just sort of draw a line and go where are we now Given what we've pulled out the ground ? Where's that money gone ? Well , most of it has gone offshore or it's gone to companies which pay no tax and that's a problem .

And it's a problem domestically , where now gas specifically is more expensive domestically for us to use than it is for us . You know what is the value of that gas in other countries .

You know , if you look at the cheapest form of energy generation bar none , which is renewables , you look at the amount of actual financial support it gets compared with the fossil fuel industry , it's just disgusting . And then you know you're saying it's not enough , is it ? Oh , it's a fraction , absolute fraction .

But then what isn't ever equated into those numbers is the cleanup cost . How much does it cost the country for the consequences of all of that extraction , all of that pollution ? And then climate change .

If you just look at the , the cost from insurance companies of of extreme weather events , which are getting worse , they're getting more common , they're getting more frequent , they're getting more intense . And that , where does that come from ?

Well , it's come from decades , generations of pumping out CO2 and , you know , increasing sea levels , increasing the temperature of the oceans . If you look at some of the hurricanes that developed in America end of last year , they accelerated quicker and they're more intensive than ever before . Why ?

Because the temperature of the water was hotter than ever before and it's only going to get worse . The temperature of the oceans isn't going to get less , it's only going to get more . And you know I suffered . I've been through two floods in where I live and the last flood was insane . You know the speed that the water came up .

The amount of water that was dumped was incredibly frightening and the prospect is now that that's something we're going to actually have to live with because there's nothing that can be done about it . There's no way to divert the water . It's purely just the fact that a lot of towns in Australia are going to be susceptible to climate change .

So when you look at that whole question of equity and equality and the financial support and the implications of federal policy , it makes no sense and it isn't serving the Australian people .

Saying more renewables , I'm saying absolutely more renewables and really to stop the expansion of coal mines and to reduce the amount of extraction of coal and natural gas and everything else . Really embrace the , let's say , the AMO , isp .

There's this plan , this trajectory of how the country can get to 100% renewables by 2050 , maybe look to bring that forward because it's completely achievable .

If you look at the rate of the uptake of renewables , especially the domestic level , it actually has always been at a higher rate than the predictions of AMO and there is no reason why we couldn't bring that zero carbon or that prospect , yeah , that reduction forward by 10 years .

But again you look at the debates around energy policy , most of them are still trying to justify let's use more coal .

They're all going bust because the energy prices that we charge them to run plus all the other costs in Australia and social costs . It's much cheaper just to import it straight from China , put us in a dependency , but for short term we actually get a cheaper price . So should we go down that path ?

Yes , your domestically byproduct was cheaper , but that money's then going offshore and you're not keeping it within the system , so it's a very short-term gain . The problem so , if you are then , mr Prime Minister ,

and you're going to ask me , what can we do to reduce or what we can do to increase manufacturing in Australia , which is one of the things that I think we really should be looking at , because all that's happened over the last decade is just some of these really prominent manufacturing , like the automotive industry , for instance .

It's all gone and you know energy cost has been a big component of that . We've got this great opportunity here to start building circular economies around the renewable industry . Okay , we don't manufacture anything in this country for the renewables .

The renewables industry here is massive and it's only going to continue to grow almost regardless of federal policy , because so much is driven by homeowners , by mums and dads looking at the cost of their power . Look at their power bill and go this is ridiculous . I want to do something . What can I do ? I'm going to put solar to do something .

What can I do ? I'm going to put solar and batteries on my house and I'm going to drive an ev and blah , blah , blah , blah . Same as business owners . They go what can I do to reduce my power bills ? I'm gonna put solar on . I'm gonna put battery on to reduce my peak demand . I'm going to do this because I can is the thing that empowered to do .

But then all this product which is being installed , it will expire , it will need to be replaced . But at the moment , all you can do with inverters and racking and panels is basically recycle them and extract all the materials . And then what ? There's nothing really to do with it .

What we should be doing is looking to create this circular economy where we actually start investing in manufacturing of renewable products , inverters and panels and racking all this kind of stuff . There's only one inverter manufacturer in Australia which does off-grid inverters . Everything else is brought in from overseas .

So you know , a bit like we've seen in America where they put in policies to create tax incentives to create the manufacturing in the country . We should be doing the same here . We should actually be incentivising production for energy that is of the cheapest form . That is something which we should do .

There's other things we should do as well , from a transmission , from a business model perspective , but at the grassroots , we should actually be looking at creating Australia into this renewable superpower that was talked about a few years ago .

Can you explain to me why electricity has gone up so much ?

So if you think last year , 26 gigawatts of generation that went into the to the NEM so basically all of the eastern and southern regions of Australia was 26 gigawatts only 23 and a half gigawatts came from fossil fuels , from brown and black coal . You said only Only .

So you could actually look at more , like 50 gigawatts , maybe even higher , of actual energy was generated , and these are systems below 100 kilowatts . This is all the residential rooftop stuff and a little bit of cni , but it's the small stuff .

That was , you know , getting on for two , maybe three times what was produced by the fossil fuels , so that cost of energy is cheaper , like so cheap . Now , that isn't the question and this is one of the things that often sidetracks or , you know , diverts thets the conversation . When you listen to politicians and the like , they talk about the generation .

It's actually the way in which the industry works , the way in which we've got an energy industry which was designed well over 100 years ago , which is based on one-way power flow from central generators transmitting energy from point A to point B , and that is still how it's structured . That's how all the costs are structured .

So , for instance , where I live , I pay $1.40 a day for property-to-service charge . So that is how much I pay for the luxury being connected to the grid . Now , part of that is on the basis of the transmission for me .

So I live northern new south wales and where I live , the energy that is delivered to me is on the assumption that it's basically coming from the hunter . Right , and so is my neighbor . But if you think about it , when I'm exporting all my solar , my neighbor's using it .

So actually what's happening is my neighbor is being charged for transportation of energy from the hunter when actually it's probably about 30 meters .

Now that's one of the fundamental issues that we've got is that the way in which distribution and transmission costs are even now isn't actually fair and equitable , and the fact that we still have this model which is based on that is one of the issues .

Also , you know you've got metering costs , which get factored into that as well , and the metering costs are still based on the fact that in a certain to a certain degree , people are being employed to go and read your meter , but there's a national rollout of smart meters . People don't come and read your meter , but there's a national rollout of smart meters .

People don't come and read your meter anymore . It's all done digitally , but consumers are still paying for that service . Do you see what I mean ? So there are all these embedded costs that consumers have to pay , which don't make sense , but we tend to focus on the little bit which is the actual cost of generation , which is not really the challenge .

It's actually the challenge is all the other embedded costs .

However , back then I was paying about 20 cents for the service to property charges , so the network charges . I'm now paying $1.40 a day . That's where the charges are coming from .

So when you then look at what goes on the bill , you've got the cost of the actual kilowatt hours that you're consuming , but you've then got all these other costs which get layered onto it , and a lot of them are the distribution costs . So that's the stuff sort of the way the energy moves around local to you .

Then you've got the transmission costs , so that's on the assumption that your energy you're consuming is coming from 100 kilometers away , maybe even more . And then you've got other bits of cost in there as well metering costs , and you've got other little bits .

It's gone absolutely nuts . Um , energy companies so not the retailers , the actual the networks they used to make money on a portion of the energy that you would be consuming , but instead because that was because , as also as properties have become more energy efficient , um , that's proportionally has got less .

So then to counter that , they then put up the service to property charges with this fixed charge . So they know they've always got this steady fixed income so unless that gets looked at , I can't see how you can actually do that much to reduce the cost of electricity for consumers .

The networks then spend the money , the value of the network that the networks own , the actual poles and wires that the network owns . The value goes up . But that value is then what they can charge as a percentage to the consumers in their network charges . So all that money basically gets paid for or gets .

It gets compensated back to the government through the consumers and it's sort of through the hands of the networks .

So if the and when you then look at the large scale generation , all that's really addressing is the cost per kilowatt hour , and if you look then at the wholesale value of electricity , you know it's down at sort of three , four , five cents per kilowatt hour . There's not much further it can go .

And then you've got the daily consumption charges and they go on from $0.20 to $1.40 in some regions , so they take their slice . So you've got really a bit like Elvis One person plays the guitar , which is the one that generates it , and then 40 people live off it . Basically , yeah , so you really have to reform

the energy market .

They look ugly and they just look at them and every time there's a storm they blow over and then they've got to send people out to fix them . Why do they bury them ? If they buried them , there's no maintenance or there's like a fraction of the maintenance . I can remember a few years ago .

Forget about the government spending billions of manufacturing if you haven't fixed the energy input cost , including gas . So are we in such a big mess because we privatised it all , or is there any solution ?

You know , even within the energy sector , the electricity sector , you've got what 16 networks , you've got about 45 retailers , you've got 18 VPP operators . It's not much . And why is that ? It's because there's no really way for them to go or to differentiate or , you know , be able to offer anything different to the others .

Because you're still burdened with this model , which is prehistoric . You know , if you look at a country like germany , they got 1100 retailers 1100 , that's nuts . Because they got rules there that allow consumers like you could literally get together with your street and go right , let's , let's form our own energy retail company . Let's just do it ourselves .

We can then share the energy that we produce between each other and we're only going to pay the network costs of the bit we're using . Right , a massively equitable structure . You can't do that here .

You know , there's a thing years ago I don't know if you remember there's always been like a virtual net , metering and peer-to-peer trading where there's this fantastic idea that I could sell you my energy , right , and you're only going to pay the transmission between me and you . Well , that got shot down . Because how does that ?

You know , because you're still connected to the rest of the network . So now I'm going to sell my energy to you , you're my neighbor , but you're still going to have to pay the network charges , as if you're getting it from 200 kilometers away . So that's one of the fundamental issues .

We need to look at the whole energy industry as a whole and look at a much more balanced way that distribution and transmission is factored and exactly where energy is going from . And as we get into this digital age , you can see that easily . You can track exactly where your energy went to , or you could work it out far more equitably .

It's not that hard to do . It just requires political will .

They're very technically complex pieces of work to do and with an industry which develops and grows and technically changes so quickly , it's almost an impossible task for the standards process to keep up with it . Well , it is an impossible task .

So where you then get to is that you get gaps in the industry from a perspective of electrical safety , installation safety , cyber security that , to a certain extent , can become exploited .

Now my view on that and my idea of a solution for that is there needs to be almost an interim mechanism for best practice which can be adopted in conjunction with the standards development process , so as we get into this more digital way of interacting and something becomes recognized like there's a cyber threat , we can look at industry best practice around the

world , what's working , what isn't working , and grab a bit of that policy , or even create our own policy and go right . This is the interim policy If you're bringing in a device which can communicate in this way or be controlled by this way , et cetera , et cetera .

This is how you need to do it and at the same time then review it and create the standard behind it to bolster it , because that process would create much more insulation .

And you know that data is valuable . It's valuable for so many other add-on industries . But , yeah , at the moment , yeah , you can go to wherever . There's nothing to stop it .

As long as I can remember , what the government did is they enacted , or that they put into place , this act for cyber , which created the vessel for a standard ?

It didn't actually refer to any standard , it just says that it basically created this sort of parameter where , if there is an attack or a breach , or you become aware of a breach , you have the responsibility to report it and do this , this , that and the other . So then , what can be now added into that are the standards .

So you go right now , this standard needs to now be reflected in this act , or this standard is what you need to adhere to , and if you do experience a breach or whatever , if you can get um , you know , a ransomware , whatever it is , this act is now how you need to be responsible about it .

So I think , because they recognize that this , this area , is going to develop so quickly and especially when you get ai playing into this as well , which can do computations and can do data scraping so quickly , you've got to stay one step ahead of the game .

Because they didn't know what they didn't know , they created this policy , which was a bit of a captural , which is a clever way to do it . There is now a Standards Australia standard being developed for the CR , the Consumer Energy Resources Industry . It's a first step but yeah , it will get there .

But from a consumer's perspective , they should start thinking about this .

Businesses already are Some of the biggest businesses in the world are already very aware of the threat of cyber and when they start looking at installing whether it's fleets of EV charges or whether it's solar on the roof they look at the cyber policies and the cyber credentials of those OEMs because they're very , very aware of the risk to the business At a

residential level . People also need to start thinking about this .

Batteries or other things like incentives for heating your water from excess solar , because that's a battery of kind you know . It's a very cheap battery because you only need the solar diverter .

By doing that , you can then bring down the levelized cost of electricity because you're having to use the grid less , there's less actual spill to the grid and having to buy back from the grid . So by increasing self-consumption and self-sufficiency or autonomy , you'll bring down the level of cost .

So that's the first thing they need to do incentivize and support residential batteries . The second thing that needs to then be looked at is the way in which you can pass on more equitably things like negative pricing when you get to that point in the day where there's excess solar .

Reduce the price to consume , Incentivize people to store energy , Because at the moment there's only , I think , a couple of different tariffs around the country where you have points in the day where it's predicted there's going to be excess generation and people get incentivised to store .

You just bought all your machines and now you decide to turn them off after midnight .

able to take that extra generation and get it to the south . So the prospect was a thing like two and a half years 2 billion euro project to update the transmission a thing like two and a half years , two billion euro project to update

the transmission .

Instead , what they did is they looked at North Germany and South Germany and said how many batteries are there , how many residential batteries , and who has the computing power to do blockchain transactions , to work out how we can use that excess energy , store it , discharge it at a later time when the transmission can take it and charge the batteries in southern

Germany . So they used IBM existing infrastructure that was in buildings and offices and things like that . They delivered this in six months .

So excess generation was stored by consumers because they were paid to charge the batteries , because it was cheaper than turning off the wind turbines and then that energy was then discharged and consumed by the people in the south germany . Right , you could do that here . So you could have the scenario where you could incentivize batteries .

People could put their batteries in no solar , forget about solar . They could just charge their batteries in the middle of the day , when there's excess generation , which is already causing the network's problems . Pay them to charge the battery . They can use it in the evening . Wow , wow , that's rocket science , not . But why don't they do that ?

Because the whole industry then kind of slows down . You know , where does the network make money on that ? Where does you know the government make money on that ? Where does the government make money on that ? But that's what needs to happen . That's why , when you asked me originally , what can we do to reduce that cost per kilowatt hour , incentivize batteries .

All that extra solar , which hardly costs much , is available then to be resold at a later stage at a fraction of a cost , what it costs to get it from 400 k's from a coal-fired power station .

So what they actually do is go there's too much production , so let's flip it and actually bring load onto the network so you become , rather than a self-consumer or an exporter , you now become a consumer .

That incentivizes everyone else to disconnect from the grid and it just goes down the toilet , really toilet , really , really quickly .

But the reality is that it's more technical and more expensive to go off the grid than I think people consider , because it's one thing putting on your , your , your solar and your storage for normal grid use , but to size a battery big enough to get you through a storm or the winter , it's two to three times larger that you need , or you need to have a

generator which can get you through those periods which are noisy and can be noisy , but you've got to put it somewhere . It's not an ideal outcome .

So for me , for instance , I don't really consume anything from the grid , I just export because of the size of my system and I look at that and go well , my , my daily , when my daily cost is over , like the course of , you know , a couple of years , is equal to or greater than the cost of me to get a really good quality generator .

I'll probably just get the generator and disconnect from the grid , but at the moment it's like , although I paying $1.40 a day for the privilege of being connected , it's still better than me having to increase my storage capacity and get a generator .

But what we're seeing is you're actually seeing more and more people now considering this because it's getting to the point where , for instance , for my circumstances , for every kilowatt I consume I've got to export seven . I've got to export 28 kilowatt hours a day just to offset my connection fee . It's ridiculous . You know the cost to it is .

There's absolutely no incentive or value to export to the grid at all .

And it can help balance the network if it's in a location which might struggle to get the energy that's required to meet the loads of the consumers at certain times .

So basically , people in areas that have unstable grids because they're at the fringe or there's already a bit too much solar , and people wanting to put solar on are going to get slapped at a zero export limit . Then the network can say well , there is this funding , we could put on a community battery .

You have to apply for it , you have to pay for the application for it , etc . Etc . But it's our asset , it goes onto our network , it helps to increase the value of our network that you and everyone else are going to pay for anyway .

Why do they suddenly wake up one day and say , oh , there's a lot of solar ? Why haven't they prepared to build those batteries already in that time frame ?

They'd have started putting on a lot more visibility and control at the residential level , even at the distribution level .

They'd start putting in batteries , they'd start putting in infrastructure to manage this but , in a funny way , no one really saw the speed of transition , the speed of the uptake of residential renewables and , at the same time , the networks are restricted by rules and governance and a structure which is based on business as usual from an antiquated old model .

You know , and that's that's probably to the larger degree why it is the way it is , and trying to create rule changes or to restructure the business models which is so ingrained is incredibly difficult . You almost need to just get a big rubber rubber out , start again . You know , just go right .

If we were going to redesign the energy industry in australia with current technology , with current products , with current appetite for consumers , with current global challenges , with current issues , with climate change , what would we do ? We would probably look at models which , instead of this distributed landscape .

We'd create lots of microgrids , we'd create power systems per town , per region . Go right , you're self-sustained . So if , if there's a storm 100 kilometers away , you're not going to get affected . You now need to be self-sufficient in terms of energy for this region . Okay , you've got residential storage , you've got all this pv generation .

It might be topped up by a field for the panels over there and and a couple of big batteries or whatever that's it . You know anyone wanting to now build a property or build an estate . You now , as part of that , have to create the energy generation that facilitates those properties and it grows with the buildings .

Just like you have to put in the facilities for the sewerage and the waters and everything else , well , you've also got to put in the facility for the generation . So you'd actually start creating a business model like that . So in each one of those regions , they have their own retailer , they have their own energy company for that town .

That's kind of how it was actually . It back in the early days there was , there was more . It was more like that um , each town had its own little system , um , but it's gone to the centralized model . But that's how , if you like , say if you're going to wipe the floor , just just take it all out , just start again .

That is a model which you can kind of go . Yeah , that makes sense .

Let's look at the model in WA , in Horizon Network , which is lots of microgrids , and go , well , we'll just use that . We'll use that model , okay , and make it work , because we've got actual test cases , which is Horizon in WA . They've got all their microgrids and do that . Let's just disconnect it from the transmission .

You can have a bit of both and you can choose what you tap into , what you connect to . You know so and you can , you know , almost tap into and what you connect to . You know so and you can , you know , almost mix the two . But that would be a model which would work when you go from a political perspective . Why wouldn't it work ?

Because to do this , it's still you've still got to look at , you know , how does the government make money out of the energy industry . Where does that money actually come from ? You know , a lot of it comes from the

taxation , it comes from fees , it comes from planning , it comes from all that kind of stuff . Well , that's still going to be there , yeah , okay , what they're going to lose money on is gas and coal , but that's going anyway , yeah . You know that's all gone by 35 . Coal's gone .

I mean , I actually do think we're a bit like cigarette manufacturers sending it somewhere else , and the cancer that we generate one day is going to go and bite us in the bum . Somebody is going to come back and say you as a country did this and this and this , and why weren't you more conscious about it ?

I think there will be one day that thinking At the moment we're not in that space , but undoubtedly one day the world will not allow us to dig up all that coal anymore .

You know , we should be repositioning ourselves as the absolute renewable superpower because we've got resources , we've got an abundance which no one else has .

How do you get it into another country ?

My personal view , to start with , is that we should be the country that is um , producing more product , the actual inverters and the solar panels and things like that , because , because you know , you think of solar panels , it's predominantly sand . We've got quite a lot of that , you know .

But in terms of actual harvesting sun energy and converting that into something transportable , there's a whole load of different things and there's things we probably haven't even dreamt up yet that we can do with that energy . You know , it just needs incentives , it just needs people to be able to create the industries around that .

But yeah , there's so much you can do with just energy generally being able to store it .

If you look at the income , actually the investment of all the top 10 fossil fuel companies made last year , they dropped it all by half , most of them by half . The industry is diminishing quickly because globally everything is moving over to renewables because it makes so much sense . I mean that's a general huge generalization and evs and things like that .

But but the the move away from oil and gas and coal is happening and it's happening quicker than I think people expected . And to keep it viable they need to be subsidised . You know , even if you just look at the subsidies for fuel that go into those industries , you know it's a lot .

The ordinary pundit can't be bothered with that they just want it out of their PowerPoint . We made this so complex . Now and then people mention VPPs and I can make a thousand dollars a night if everybody else gets screwed around me and the price is up that high . Is this really how we should ?

When you look at their website and you type in your postcode and you get them to do a sort of a prospectus for you of what your bill might look like , they kind of give you this sort of average based on wholesale rates , in terms of what you should be paying and what you might be paying , and also at some point when something might happen , there might be

a spot price where , whatever you can discharge into the market , you might get $10 a kilowatt hour or something . So you look at that and go , okay , but it's still a hedge , you're still well .

They , on your behalf , are dabbling in like the energy stock market , but from their perspective , to offset that hedge , so they make money they give you a monthly fee , $22 or whatever it is .

So they still because what they say is say is oh , we're not going to put any money on the kill or hours we charge you or you know whatever , but we just take this , this , this monthly fee . So , yes , it is exactly like the stock market and it's a gamble . And that's when you look at it . You go it's a gamble , should I or shouldn't I ?

Am I going to be better off ? Aren't I going to be better off ? Don't know ? And what's the payoff is like ? Well , financially I might be better off , but at the same time , someone else controlled in my asset . Someone now has got , although I can turn them off and say , well , I , I don't want you to touch it today .

And where you start seeing hesitation from consumers is it's around that social license , it's around that trust and unfortunately , why ?

So that number you can look at on a daily basis only 3.6% of consumers putting in a system signing up to a VPP .

You know , the kind of analogy which often gets kicked around is like I've just bought my car . Do I want someone to use it for uber on the weekends ? No , it's my car . You know it's that kind of yeah , but my 21 year old son .

with somebody like Amber ?

a month , but you still pay your . For me , I'm still paying my $1.40 a day connection fee . I'd still pay 45 cents a day for metering charges , you know . So I've still got all these fixed costs . The only hedge is the kilowatt hours that spill in and out . That's , that's the the gamble , which is the same as any vpp operator .

It's like none of them will give a guarantee of like you sign up to us , you'll be absolutely 100 better off by that , you know . And they can't do that because the energy industry is in this constant state of flux , it's transitioning and it's it's moving I'm really surprised .

Swap your energy retailers every year is my advice . It's not the retailer .

But they deliberately made the pricing so damn complicated . Where it's a mix between off-peak and then the , I mean there should be a government-run website that tells you at any given time , for any given reason , for every postcode , which one is the cheapest energy retailer . That's what introduced a bit of competition .

It's either somewhere that struggles to be able to deliver the amount of energy that those householders require or struggles to be able to manage the amount of power going in the opposite direction , the amount of power being exported from excess PV , so that's delivered .

Or if they want to put PV on their roof , might be told by the network you can't export anything because we just can't take it . So the benefit for the consumer is often talked about a financial benefit .

But sometimes it's quite hard to see that mechanism because really , as far as I can see it , the only financial benefit is that a consumer can export more energy than they would do normally . But when you look at the value of that export , it's very little . So hang on , so is really community batteries just a bit of a spin .

Just a publicity spin , because the energy networks , in my opinion , are responsible to make the energy stable . In my opinion , are responsible to make the energy stable for me , to be able to get solar in , to be able to export , to use the grid in a way that a modern grid should work .

But then I go into the government and ask for my taxpayer money to put batteries into local areas , paying maybe half for it to create more stability and therefore less cranky customers that they should have supplied for in the first place . So this is actually the government giving my taxpayer money to create more value for those companies .

They're going to have higher assets on their value on their book . They can sell themselves for more money , all subsidised to me and the government's been complicit to spin me that this is a community battery . I never own it and the benefits that I get is simply that my grid is more stable , which it should be in the first place .

So you pay for it installed or it might be some areas it's free , but you definitely pay for the installation of it . No , no , no , no . But hang on , you're paying for it through your supply fee .

Yeah , some , but more often than not , if in certain areas , if you're putting in a new solar system , you have to upgrade to a smart meter and you'll have to pay for that installation , and then you then rent it or you pay for it in your fees . But what benefit is there to a consumer to have a smart meter ?

But the one thing that smart meters aren't it's actually that smart because the information they store is maybe six hours old , it's 15 minute intervals . It's like it's not as granular as the meter that has to get installed as part of every single solar installation . So , consumer , you're going to put solar on your roof , you've got to put a meter on anyway .

Now that meter is quicker and faster than that smart meter .

Now it's this much during this time , that much at that time . If on Sunday you wear white undies , we charge you extra . It's crazy .

never go anywhere .

Yes , that's what's going to happen . Are people really that dumb ?

Well , anyway , there was this one episode where something major happened and everyone after the episode got up and made a cup of tea at the same time and it nearly crashed the whole electricity system in the UK because everyone stuck the kettles on at the same time .

And that nearly crashed the whole electricity system in the UK because everyone stuck their kettles on at the same time . And that's what's going to happen with With EVs , but no , because , funnily enough , when people get home at night , the cost of electricity is probably still in the peak period , which means it's going to be expensive .

They have no awareness that they're now in the peak period for paying what you think . They're going to go home , they're going to make the dinner and sit down and then later go . Oh , now it's a bit cheaper . I better turn the EV on If that's not done .

Then you plug it in yes , but you've got schedule on it , and a lot of people also then , like with amber , they'll plug the thing in , but then the vpp operator will be telling you when to charge your car , or you have the systems and there's a lot of these about where you plug it in and then you'll actually be able to charge your car from excess solar .

So and that's why people don't plug it in and straight away it's going to be charging . It's actually scheduled and it's managed because that makes sense . You know , it's like people aren't that stupid .

Especially where the cost of electricity is so high , people are actually incentivized because of the cost of power to be a bit more savvy about how they use their energy and when .

It'll be going back and be able to be scrutinized and used for whatever purpose .

You might have been on your phone , because they can also get that information . Also , who was at fault ? Because they can also get that information . Um , also , who is at fault ? Because they got all that information ? They got the telemetry of how you're driving , how fast you are driving , and also got the cameras but hang on .

You know , every time we go into like those captures where you , to prove you're a human and you've got to look at the images of motorbikes or zebra crossings or whatever , that you're programming ai by doing that . So , yeah , so what you want to actually use that information that people do ?

That is actually the mechanism to program , because ai is just an algorithm . It's it's they say it's a self-learning algorithm , but it's got to be programmed . You've got to program into it to a certain point , then it can start programming itself . The responses In this scenario do that and recognize this .

This is what this is , because they can't think for themselves . Initially , you've got to program it .

Yeah , I'm of that generation I think you are as well where we're unique because we bridge the gap between kind of no technology and this insane technology where we didn't have mobile phones , didn't have home computers , didn't have any of that , where we still did write letters and communicated with people . And you know , there was no Black and white TV .

Black and white TVs , yeah , Radios that you had to tune yourself , Tapes , you know all those kind of things . It's like records .

there's the breakdown of community and how we can look at it and go no attention to detail , by the way no , and how ai , in my opinion , is , and how even all this smart technology is actually dumbing down the population , because you haven't got to think for yourself , because it's done for you .

I remember if I was going to drive around london I'd get an a to z book and I'd look at it and I'd memorize the route and I'd work it out and I'd remember road names and I'd remember the route . Now you get into a car and just go I'm going there and it does it for you . Don't be half the car . Now you can get to a car and it drive you .

So I mean , it's like how is that developing people's brains and their memories and their ability to think and think laterally and and problem solve and work things out ? It's doing completely the opposite . It's actually this process of dumbing down the population . It's really scary actually what and ?

And then that information where that's going to and being used , for what reasons and by who , and it's it's . It's just this sort of almost like we're a victim of our own success . Um , I don't know where I'm going to with this , but I think it's really fascinating .

It's interesting , where we're in this transition , this this massive paradoxical transition of who we are as humans and and what we're doing and why we're doing it and where we're going as , as a , as a race and as a society and as a kind of , you know , conscious beings and and looking at our , our future and what level of of choice and freedoms we'll actually

have and why we will do the things we do . You know it's it's an interesting time to be alive , kind of quite scary at the same time , because we're also now suffering the consequences of , you know , hundreds of years worth of , you know , post-industrial revolution harm to the planet .

Um , but for me , that's why I want to be in the renewables industry to really try to be able to address what I can , have the power over what I can , which is to try to , you know , address the issues of , of climate change and the proliferation of co2 in the atmosphere , etc .

The other stuff ai and I can't really do much about , and I'd love to still write letters and have a phone that I dial , like that .

Possibly you can say write it more sweet , and then AI gives you extra inspiration and then you should read that and go .

Because , I mean , china certainly brought themselves out a big niche to be a huge influencer in this . They were very smart there . They're eating the Germans alive on the cars now . How's Trump affecting us ?

I wonder if there's going to be quite a backlash in America in terms of , you know , due to the there'll be , I think , a cost of living crisis .

And I wonder if I almost wonder if that's going to happen again this time around . And I almost wonder if that's going to happen again this time around Because you know some of the policies . You know , like dig baby dig

and all this kind of stuff or drill baby drill , whatever it was . You know it doesn't take a genius to work out that energy from renewables is still cheaper than coal . And you know EVs are more , they've got more advantages financially from a driving perspective , from a fueling perspective , than combustion engine cars .

And you know , just again , people tend to vote with their wallets or act with their wallet , so I'm not quite sure how it's going to pan out . It's . It's very , very interesting and kind of scary space at the same time For us domestically . I think the government here are kind of doing desperate talks to try to see .

You know where we're going to sit If it's going to start , because I think there's looking at slapping on tariffs to Australia as well . So we'll say I'm not quite sure how dependent we are on the American market or vice versa . You know how much we trade with them .

And Australia's always been a bit of a dumping ground for product Cars , you know , renewables , all sorts of stuff , especially Chinese product . It kind of gets dumped here . So it could be that we actually see an influx of cheaper Chinese products that is being subsidized because they need to find homes for it to keep the Chinese economy buoyant . Almost .

You could potentially argue that we could benefit in a way by the trade war between America and China . Just don't know . It's still too early days , but it's very concerning what that's going to do , for you know the global trade and global politics as well .

It's not really what we were learned and taught in school of how democracy should work . No . Should we maybe distance ourselves from America when they go really mad ?

Europe's not really their biggest mate anymore and they rely on each other . This is why I kind of hesitate because is it real ?

You know it's like it just looks like it's a lot of hot air to be seen , to get media attention to be seen as this great , big , powerful , being an entity and nation .

So at the moment I'm kind of looking at it and just go , and also I look at a lot of the media and go how much of this is actually true ? Because are these things actually really happening ? Is this just content ?

So why do we let somebody like Trump , who's got a trigger on the nuclear button , talk stuff ?

That's the problem when he's got his own media channel , when it , when it's all so controlled by other very wealthy people with with financial interests and also a huge amount of media presence , to stop that rhetoric . You know the whole thing has been built on rhetoric and these narratives of I'm going to do this , I'm going to do that . It's never okay .

Fact check it . How . How are you going to do this ? Is actually what you're saying true , you know ? Is anything true with what's going on here , or is it all just hyperbole and talk ? How much we actually were hearing now is true .

You just don't know , because it's just no one that challenges it gets as much airtime as what comes out of that camp , because it's way more interesting and outrageous and distressing than the truth .

And again , when you've got this group of individuals supporting these business individuals , supporting the government , that can really pull the strings and make things happen . You know how much is coming from Trump and how much is he just representing the interests of other parties .

So look , guys and girls and ladies and gentlemen , it's an interesting podcast with James today about the philosophy of the world , a thought of a baby boomer and energy in Australia .