>> Chris: All right, welcome to your church friends podcast. I'm Chris. >> Muireadhach: I'm, Muireadhach >> Chris: So we're talking about baptism today. >> Muireadhach: We sure are. >> Chris: And, have you been baptized? >> Muireadhach: A couple times. >> Chris: Couple times? All right. Want to talk about one of them at least? >> Muireadhach: Yeah, baptized when I was five at the church that we're currently at. >> Chris: Oh, that's cool.
>> Muireadhach: By our senior pastor, when he wasn't the senior pastor, so weird tie ins with all of that. But basically, yeah, I was at, like a. I think it was a vacation Bible school. They did the whole thing of, hey, you want to accept Jesus and what all that looks like? Like. Yeah. And it made sense to me at the time and moving forward, and one of the kids leaders met with me just like, here's kind of what baptism is. Are you for it? And I don't remember being five, but
apparently, you know, I was just as profound back then. And so they were super impressed and said, yes, we can baptize this child. I have a vhs tape of. >> Chris: It of you being baptized. >> Muireadhach: Dude, Ken, big old beard, had the long hair going on. Remember when I had my beard and long hair? >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. >> Muireadhach: I want to say he pulled it off better, though. yeah, but, yeah, so that was
baptized at five. then as I've sprinkled my testimony throughout the episodes, all of that happened. Then coming back to the church, I felt like, yeah. Having a. As I look at it now is probably rededication. I know at the time, I was like, I don't know if I really knew what I was doing the first time. So I felt like, here's my actual commitment. So I'm taking this step, but as I look at it over time, m. I'm like, no, God's been faithful, even though I wasn't.
But, brought me back in as more of a commitment time. >> Chris: Yeah, Remy was baptized, like, maybe seven. No, couldn't be seven or eight. Probably around eight or nine. M. but even then it might have been eight. Even then I was like, you know, church nowadays is like, hey, as soon as a kid says they accept Jesus, get them baptized, like, baptized as quickly as possible. I just wanted the candy, right, basically, yeah. And then Reid's been asking about it, and he's eight now,
and I'm like, no, not yet. I don't think you're ready. because through the time Remy's been baptized till now. Like, my understanding of baptism has changed what it really means, you know, when we get told, like, oh, it's just symbolism and this and that, which we'll get into a little bit more with this episode. But for me, I was baptized around the age of 15 at the church I was going to in the pastor's pool, and it was by one of my mentors. He
baptized me. but it was cool because he was also being re baptized, and he was, like, in his forties at the time. doing it. So, I always thought that was a really cool thing, and it's made me think as of late, you know, just the same thing. Like, you're saying the rededication thing. Like, if maybe. Maybe that's a thing that should happen. Maybe I should do that. >> Chris: But baptism is weird because it's just there, right? Like, it just starts off. And we have, with Luke,
we're. We're looking at just two verses today, and it's when, all the people were baptized. John was, Jesus was baptized, too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven. You are my son, whom I love with you. I am well pleased. And that's basically everything we're going to look at. But it just made me think, like, we're discovering a savior. Where did baptizing come from?
>> Muireadhach: Right, which, looking at last time, we were talking about John the forerunner. John the Baptist. Right. So he was out there baptizing people. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: I know we kind of talked about it, but we were talking more about John, and, you know, what he had going on. But, yeah, then coming to this point of, I was saying, discovering a savior and you have Jesus coming and getting baptized, and. Yeah, it really is a thing. Like, where is
baptism? Like, what is this? Why did John start doing it? Huh? Huh? Right? >> Chris: Yeah, it's like, where did John pick this up at? Where does he. Where does John go? Like, dunking people in water? This is the new thing. And, yeah, that's. That's where the big confusion comes in, because, honestly, it wasn't until maybe last year or two years ago when we were talking in, ah, my whole christian life, I'm just sitting here like, yeah, baptism's the thing we
do. And you said, where did it come from? And I was like, the Bible, John. But really, why was this the new practice? Why was this the new thing? >> Muireadhach: Yeah. I love those questions. Yeah, I was just like, hey, you know how you're living your life right now? Think about this. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: And then I'll just walk away. >> Chris: Yeah. Why did you do that to me? Which sparked the whole reason of why my son isn't baptized yet.
>> Muireadhach: Yeah. Which, quick side note, it was the same thing for me with Casey. Cause I knew that she had, like, accepted Jesus and was like, okay. Like she understood something there. And Delilah and I just talking through it and like, hey, when she's ready, she'll take this step, which was really just last year. So that was like seven years in between. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: As a parent, you know, trying to get in Bible studies and
praying and asking questions and doing the whole thing. And it's kind of like, should I be pressuring more? Like, what should this look like? But it really felt like the timing was right. It's like, okay, I'm good with that clarification we're talking about with our kids. >> Muireadhach: Right. If you're an adult and looking at this like, it's your responsibility to, fast forward that whole situation, because, like, it is an act of obedience, which we'll get into.
>> Chris: Yeah. And with everything. I mean, we're talking also about baptism from, our perspective and our understanding. But throughout church and culture and even today, there's people who look at baptism differently, where it's sprinkling of water is okay. Infant baptism is okay. Where pouring water over the head is what they do. >> Muireadhach: I, mean, we put them in once, put them in thrice. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Or do what I did twice and get everyone all mad at me.
>> Chris: Yeah. and where the didache had it, like, it has to be running water. And if you don't have running water, then do it this way and do it that way. So it is this, like, I don't want to say convoluted, but like this jumbled up idea of baptism. And we really, other than this portion of scripture, we don't know where it came from. >> Muireadhach: Kind of, kind of, yeah. Even
doing some studying. And it's funny because one of the first commentaries that I opened up, he was like, so looking at this, this probably came from. I'm like, you're the experts and you're gonna lead with a. Probably came from, which is. Cause it's true 2000 years ago. And you really have, looking at the old Testament, there is no clear baptism, so to speak. There's allusions to things that even in the new jet testament, they'll call back on, but it's not quite the same
thing, really. What it seems like the closest thing though that would happen would be the ritualistic washings that people would go through. Right. So we've talked a few times on the show about being ritualistically unclean. >> Muireadhach: Right. Which isn't necessarily a, ah, moral failing. It was just like, what's the word I'm looking for? Purity laws. Yeah, purity laws. And like ritualistically, like holy and all that going on.
So it was more to do with washings having to do with that, which if you were to look at the words that were being used, if you took like the greek version of the Old Testament, you could find like the word baptizo, which is baptism. In relation to those kinds of things. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: So they're looking at, okay, there's a ritual washing.
Looks like that kind of evolved into also, again, it's not in the Bible, but when you're looking back at the old practices, it does seem like there was one of those ritualistic washings that would happen when a gentile would come into faith in Judaism. >> Chris: Right, right. Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Which is pretty close to baptism. Right. So you can see this progression going on to where John as a jew, just like, okay, well here's the thing that happens. But yeah, if you're gonna go with
everything that explains the Bible is in the Bible. This is one of those things where you gotta go. >> Chris: No, yeah, with the purity law too. that was to make themselves clean again so they would be allowed back into the community. So when you're unclean, you're excommunicated from the community, you have to go sit outside. And then once you're, you've washed and it covered the gauntlet from mold, on like your fabric, your clothing, in.
>> Muireadhach: Your house, you got some mildew. Mildew. You gotta go get clean. >> Chris: Yep. infectious diseases. and you know, the way they described them, it wasn't always just leprosy. If it was just like a red bump on your body, ingrown hair, maybe at the time it was like, we gotta wash it and check to make. >> Muireadhach: Sure you're not generally being a woman. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Every month. >> Chris: Yeah. Right. You were unclean. So is the Washington. Allow yourself
back into the community. I have this too. It's an exodus. so this is when the priests go to, the altar and it said, then the Lord said to Moses, make a bronze, basin with its bronze stand for washing. Place it between the tent of meeting and the altar and put water in it. Aaron and his sons are to wash their hands and feet with water from it. Whenever they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash, with water so that they will not die.
Also, when they approach the altar to minister by presenting a food offering to the Lord, they shall wash their hands and feet so they shall not die. this will be a lasting ordinance for Aaron and his descendants for generations to come. So here we see this kind of idea of like this washing, to go before God in a sense, to get into the altar. and so the priests had to do this. And so baptism in the same way you could look at, as
washing and purifying. I'm m trying to remember off the top of my head, so if anyone remembers, you can correct me freely. But I don't know if this is before or after Aaron's first two sons died, who approached the altar incorrectly and then passed, away. And this is Exodus what? this is Exodus 30. And I'm trying to remember if that was in one of the other books, not in Exodus, because then the timelines all kind of. You gotta, you gotta do some.
>> Muireadhach: Yeah, off the top of my head, I'm not sure. >> Chris: But in that story alone, they, they approach the altar impurely unclean. And that was their punishment. I mean, the clear law is like if you do that, you die. so kind of tying the two somewhat together. But I like that you said there's a lot of illusions to it in the old testament because we do see that. And one of the other illusions is circumcision.
>> Chris: So we have way back in Genesis, Abraham and his family getting called out from ur. >> Chris: And I want to read just a little bit of it. It says Terah, took his son. So this is Genesis eleven and slightly into twelve. I don't know if I'll get into all of that. But it said Terah took his son Abram and his grandson lot son, of Haran, and his daughter in law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram. And together they set out for, for ur. set out from ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when
they came to Haran, they settled there. And then basically it said Terah lived 205 years and then he died in Haran. which is interesting that the story begins of Abraham. Like this great journey is coming out of ur, the Chaldeans, which is Babylon. >> Muireadhach: Babylon. Yeah. >> Chris: So God calling Abraham out of this. But it starts with Terah, his dad. And then he got to Haran and was just like, you know, the goal was to get to Canaan, the promised land. But once he got
to Haran, he's like, I'm just going to settle here. This is good enough. And then that's where he died. And then from there, that's when God calls Abram and says, hey, go from this country out of this and, go to this land, and I'll bless you and I'll give it to you and your offsprings. So the idea here is he's taking him out of the empire of the world at that time and putting him kind of creating a new group of people from it. A new nation, I want to say.
>> Muireadhach: And just side weird note that popped in my head, so the wording might be wrong. even though God is calling Abram at that time, I want to say that the way that Genesis is structured, I want to say that the word, that these structures are called a t dot. Hm. And that's like, the kind of encapsulating whose story is this? And what are you covering? Is, like, during that time, it was the tea dot of his dad. Mmm m. And that word is coming to my mind
from, like, way back in Bible college. So that might be the wrong. If there's any, like, Bible students right now. You're like, what the heck is you talking about? You know what I'm talking about. Writing the show. Put it on the
Facebook page. But, yeah, it's an interesting thing there to, like, yes, he's calling Abram, but the way that it's structured is, it's like, it's his dad's part of the story, which is kind of that weird break of like, okay, well, now his dad passed away, and then you move into the rest of it to the Abram. Just weird structuring on with, on with the story. >> Chris: With that structuring, though, it does make sense that he's calling them. And then he decides, like, hey, this is a
place I'll settle. but basically, God wasn't creating a new nation out of anywhere or nowhere. He was creating his nation out of. Out of the world, and calling his people out of the world to be set apart. So then in between that, you have a lot of stuff that happens. Abraham goes down to Egypt because of a famine. he rescues lot from being taken captive. There's the Ishmael and Hagar situation. But then after all of that, God introduces the covenant of
circumcision. And this happens when Abram is now 99 years old. And it says, I am God almighty. Walk before me faithfully and be blameless. Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your number. So Abram fell face down, and God said to him, as for me, this is my covenant with you. You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram. You will be called Abraham, for I have made
you the father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful. I will make you, make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me, you and your descendants after you for generations to come. to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. let me skip to where I want to get to because it's long. And then God said, as for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your
descendants after you for generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you. The covenant you are to keep. Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision. It will be a sign of the covenant between me and you for generations to come. Every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised. And, then it goes on to talk about, this is foreigners. Anyone who's in your household
has, to be circumcised. And this is the everlasting covenant. >> Muireadhach: Right? So you got that Old Testament going on, right? So you're like circumcision. I thought we were talking about baptism. >> Chris: Right? >> Muireadhach: Where we get into colossians 211
twelve. you've got in him, you were also circumcised with the circumcision not performed by human hands, your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. >> Muireadhach: So that's where you have. Okay. Circumcision being linked now with baptism.
>> Chris: Right. And Paul's making that connection between the two of what this circumcision act like. >> Muireadhach: The removal of the flesh. >> Chris: The removal of the flesh. Yeah. And I think Luke kind of is taking this, idea from Abraham when he includes the story of Jesus being circumcised. Because we have that, and only in Luke's gospel do we have that story. But he went out of his way to mention on the 8th day Jesus
was circumcised. Taking it back to like Jesus, fulfilling all these regulations or laws that the Israelites were supposed to m and I found this interesting because, why was the commandment made for the 8th day? And I heard this from the Lord of the spirits podcast, and it said the idea behind it really goes back to creation. God created everything in seven days, and the
8th day was the beginning of new creation. M so what we have is like, 8th day old is gone, and then new life, new beginning, and that's what circumcision is. Right. and going into baptism, what do we do when we baptize? you know, it's death to life. >> Muireadhach: Right. >> Chris: So it's almost that same combination of what you're seeing there. >> Muireadhach: Okay, can I jump into something that Heiser brought into my mind in relation to circumcision, and baptism
coming together. So he's got a multiple part series on baptism, if you go on his blog, Dr. Msh, and you can just like use the search bar there for baptism. But this was the first time that I'd heard this. But he basically says that there's some sort of connection between baptism and the circumcision shown through Colossians. Paul wouldn't pair them if they weren't meant to be associated in some way. And what follows? I'll give you my take on what the connection is. Second, let's look at
circumcision. What did it actually do? Well, we know what it didn't do, so let's start there. Circumcision didn't guarantee or ensure salvation. We know that because most circumcised people wound up apostasizing, prompting that little thing we call the exile that is patently evident. And number two, it didn't mark women.
Circumcision did mean something to israelite women, though the sign of circumcision was physical, visible reminder to women that their race, their own lives, and the life of their children began as a supernatural act of God on behalf of Abraham and Sarah. It was a constant reminder of God's grace to that couple and their posterity. But getting one's something cut didn't bestow salvation. It reminded one of supernatural beginning by grace. And then he goes on
to say, and I'll stop after this. So what did it do? I think the answer is painfully easy, which, which in part explains why so many have added to it for so long. Circumcision granted the recipient admission into the community of Israel. Female children were admitted by virtue of being the property of an admitted male. So that's patriarchal culture, right? And so don't get all bent out of shape property wise, right? >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: So basically, so what you say?
Why was membership into the community a big deal? What made this community different? Simple. This one and only. This one had the oracles of God, to borrow Paul's phrase. In short, it had the truth about who was really God among all gods. So that's where, if you're looking at circumcision on how Heizer's presenting it, just like, yeah, here's a sign that you're entering into this community, right? So like, what did kids do? They
did nothing as far as like obedience or anything, right? It's just like, no, no, no. You're one of us and you're here and you're going to be able to be taught these things and be around. It doesn't mean that they'd be faithful to it, but they were part of that community, which I think that that's where you can get some of the justifications for like infant baptism. >> Chris: Right? Right, yeah. >> Muireadhach: Versus if like you're at a baptist church like us, it's believer's
baptism. So even how we're talking about with our kids, right. It's just like, well, we're wanting to see that them taking that step or even me with a rededication versus some other denominations that would like. No, they're part of the church. So we're going to do this thing. We're going to baptize them into the church and then through the church they'll have a generally where you'd have like a confirmation, right. Later. Yeah, like, so
you're baptized into this. Now you confirm that you're actually part of it. >> Muireadhach: Yeah. >> Chris: And Paul doesn't pull this out of nowhere either. And I'm glad that Hyzer kind of took it that way because there's wording of all this in the Old Testament. Jeremiah four four has circumcise yourselves to the Lord. Circumcise your hearts, you people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, or my wrath will flare up and burn like a fire because the evil you
have done. And then in deuteronomy, it's the same thing. The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants so that you will love him with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your life. So, he's not just making these connections because he's like pulling them out of thin air. What circumcision has to do with
baptism? Because here he's saying like, the circumcision of the flesh was a symbol, but there's going to be a moment where the circumcision of your heart where it becomes more. And I'm glad you brought up the like, not everyone who is circumcised was saved because. Yeah, that's where the exile kicked in. We even have the story of Moses, And as he's headed back to deliver the people, the angel stands in front of him and then the wife throws, is it the foreskin
of the kids at his feet? And she's like, this is why this guy was gonna, the angel was gonna kill you because you're not even following through completely. So it's an important thing. But it is that thing that Heiser says. It's what made people part of God's kingdom. And in order to be part of God's kingdom, there had to be a rebirth, in a sense, a new creation that allowed you to be part of that.
>> Muireadhach: So this is my interjection. People like to use, exceptions to the rules to try and like bend the norms. What about the thief on the cross? The thief on the cross gets pulled into so many different things about like, well no, this is really bare bones. It like, what's actually essential for the thing. And just like, that's not the norm that we're called to follow. Is God's grace there for somebody in that situation?
You know, deathbed, confession, all that? Like, absolutely. And God's good, so he'll do that. But like, for those of us that are like experiencing life in general of like, what most of us do, here's what we should be doing, right, of having the, having the baptism. Because you just said entering into the kingdom. So like what? So the thief didn't enter into the kingdom. >> Chris: Right. Right.
>> Muireadhach: You said that he'd be with him in paradise. Like guys, how many fingers does your hand have? >> Chris: Do you want me to answer that? >> Muireadhach: Yeah. >> Chris: Okay. Five. >> Muireadhach: Did you know some people have six? >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: Okay. go buy some gloves. How many fingers are on it? Like, it's like I'm sure that there are six fingered gloves for people too. But you know what I mean? It's just like what's the actual norm within the
situation? And we don't want to take the thing that's not the norm to try and underpin. >> Chris: Right. To undo all of this, everything that's been laid out. Because it is laid out pretty clearly. then we also have the crossing of the Red Sea is another illusion of it. The crossing of the red sea or the sea of reeds. By the Israelites.
it's interesting. What I found here is that the Egyptians believed that the sea of reeds, had to be crossed in order to get to the afterlife, so that they would offer, like, gems to their gods and everything. And here, again, where the Bible is like, no, we're going to show you what the truth is. The Israelites crossing, they moved from death to life in the water. You know, that's the illusion there.
the same first corinthians says this, for I do want, I don't want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud of the sea. So Paul's, again, making that connection of this moment was that, which really there? >> Muireadhach: I mean, on that one, it's so where was Moses and the Israelites leaving? M Egypt, right? Slavery, oppression, flesh, like, all
the things that Egypt represents. So, like, okay, you've been freed from that place and now you're going. But it's not like God was like, oh, cool, you're free. Like, just go on now. It's like, no, Egypt was following them. Like, what was the path forward? It's like they had to die. They had to be baptized through how you're saying, like, this is the entrance to the underworld, right? So it's like they had to go in that, through that, and then to the other
side, which was the promised land. So when you're looking at baptism, like, you've been freed from your sins, the enemy is not for that. Your flesh still doesn't want to submit to that. So, like, what's the path forward into? Like, the blessed life that God is giving you? Baptism. You gotta die to what
was before. Like, yeah. All of these things that are here is just like, God is so intricate, like, the real history of what was going on with the people and then how that ties into something like baptism, it's just crazy, like, how intricate that is. Yeah. >> Chris: And there's all these little clues that get dropped into, like, all these illusions, too. the next one I had was, entering the promised land through the Jordan again, crossing through a sea. But this is after 40 years
of wandering in the wilderness. And the wilderness is looked at as well. That's the evil. That's the Badlands, right? Like, in most cases of the Bible. >> Muireadhach: Like, what is it? >> Chris: The goats to azale. And the bad goat go to Isael is going into the wilderness. So out of the wilderness, into the promised land. Again, it's a picture of what happens with baptism. It's taking the world out of us. It's taking the wilderness out of us, the chaos and bringing us into this
new life with God. And then Nahum is another one who had leprosy. And Elijah tells him to dip seven times in the Jordan to, cleanse himself. And he does it, and now he's clean and it's again, this uncleanness that now gets removed from him. >> Muireadhach: And that one I like, the one of Nahum, which is a crazy story. Go, go and look at it like it's cool. But yeah, that dip, right? That dip is the immersion. So like he went and he immersed himself in, into the river there and coming out.
Yeah, his, leprosy was gone. So whereas you have like, the ritualistic cleansing, they're just like, oh, you're ritually unclean, but here you have an illness that's being miraculously taken away as well. And when I look at these things of like, okay, these things are all building towards, baptism. And where, again, ritualistic has nothing to do with morality, right? And even a skin condition is external. So you're looking at these things being washed
away. When we get into baptism in the New Testament, it does shift to the moral thing because what you have in, I guess, Mark and John, maybe Matthew, is that when they're going down into the water, they're confessing their sins. So either they confess their sins beforehand or when they're in the water, they're confessing their sins and being baptized. Like they're repenting and being baptized for the remission of the forgiveness of those. So now it's turned into a
moral thing. And when they're going down into the water, what before was happening on the external now is happening on the internal to where it's just like, oh, leprosy gets washed away, but now it's like guilt is getting washed away. You know what I mean? And just the image of that, of like, what was happening before isn't what's happening now. And that's just a cool thing for me
to like, oh, now it's going deeper. Like, yes, it's the physical representation of you're going down into the water, but yeah, what God is doing with that is like, yeah, cleansing you on a whole different level. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: I think that Peter, would talk about that. You go and you have baptism so that you can have a clear conscience before God. Right. Knowing that you've been forgiven,
which is a whole other thing. Certain denominations say that it is baptism which cleanses you of your sins, that that's where the forgiveness and the cleansing happens. So it's like you can come to God, you can believe in him, you can repent, but it's not till you're actually baptized that the sins are actually washed away and put into remission. And there's several verses that
phrase it that way. So again, it's just like, I can get where the different denominations understand these things differently. But regardless, that washing away that's happening, like, I just think that's so cool. Cause to think of Naaman with leprosy, right. And just like a decaying skin condition to realize like, oh, that's like, what sin is on my soul. Yeah, but like, how am I gonna get, like, leprosy? There's no cure for leprosy. Like, what are you going to do? And to realize,
like, sin in my life. Like, what's the cure for that thing? Like, what are you going to do? So when you take these things, it's just like, well, you're repenting and you're believing, you're going into these waters of death and like, that is taking away the. Sin that's there. Like, it's so cool. >> Chris: Yeah. Ah, that story in general too is like, like, he wasn't going to do it because he's like, why am I going to go washing this filthy.
>> Muireadhach: And this guy's just like, just might as well do it. You're already here. >> Chris: Yeah. the next example is Noah's ark, where the people, and the earth have been so corrupted by sin. And we've covered this in the excluded books of the Bible, in the Enoch story. but to get more context in depth. But it's basically so God sends the flood to end creation but saves Noah. And here we see the judgment of sin. The judgment
was the flood, the water that covered the earth. and when the water went away, the earth was a new creation and humanity started all over again with Noah. and I got a little bit more with Noah, but I'll save that towards the end. but these are the connections that I think that John, was starting to make when he began baptizing people, and doing it the way that we understand it and do it today. it was basically all these things, all these old Testament illusions
that, led him to saying, like, let's do this. And it's interesting too that he started in the Jordan or that's where his ministry was. because the Jordan had such a big role in a lot of the things. And we talked about the. Into the
promised land was through the Jordan. So again, it's taking the people who, in a sense, as they're coming to be baptized, who were corrupted by the roman society, who were kind of living within the world and saying, hey, if you want to be part of God's kingdom, we've got to go through the Jordan again to get into the promised land of being in God's family. So there's a lot of connections here with it. I do want to look at the little verses that we kind of tackled. You got something else?
>> Muireadhach: I'm just gonna say, I know that when I was talking about, like, oh, coming out of Egypt, and then you go through and you're in the promised land, and then you immediately went into, like, oh, through the Jordan, get into the promised land. For anybody listening, the confusion is it's through the Jordan into the promised land. I did a hop, skip and a jump of going to that. So clarification, they are two different rivers. They
were on the journey to get to that place. If they would have just been obedient to God and said, cool, we can go in, then it would have been that second crossing. But yeah, there's 40 years in the middle. So yes, they were going to promised land, but technically going through the Jordan is what got them there. Although the Red Sea was also a step towards it. Yes. >> Chris: so we see that John baptizes Jesus. >> Muireadhach: Ah. >> Chris: And Luke sees this as the climax of John's
ministry. this is kind of like the crescendo of everything that John was doing. if John was the herald, of the king, announcing to the people that the king is coming, then Jesus being baptized is the anointing of the king. So this is Jesus being anointed as king. the king is coming. The king is coming. And
now we're hearing, like, the king is here. So all of the baptism was basically him heralding that in, and it's interesting that Luke mentions this and none of the others accounts, of Jesus baptizing mentions, this, that Jesus was praying while he was being baptized. I never caught that until I did study that. No other ones say it. And it's only here that he says, he was praying. And this is the first of ten times that Luke's gospel
mentions Jesus praying. And that again, I just love when, like, there's little, like, things like that where it's over and over again or someone's really picking up on something. and every time we see it, it's a quick, It's just like this is always a gut check to my own life of like, where's my prayer life? You know, that's a side note. But three things happened. >> Muireadhach: That's just us as friends. >> Chris: Yeah, that's just. >> Muireadhach: I'll follow up.
>> Chris: After three things happened, during this baptism, the heavens opened up, the spirit descended on Jesus, and then God spoke, which are all really interesting, things here. So the heavens opening up is kind of echoes. Isaiah 64 one. and it's interesting because it starts off with the
phrase in that day. and then the he, and then moves into heavens being opened up, which if going back to our not, excluded, forgotten books of the bible series, where all of them had that in that day, in the day, anytime. I read that now all I can think of. Day of the Lord. >> Chris: So day of the Lord here Isaiah saying, in that day, and then the heavens opened up. It's the day of the Lord. and here we see the same thing where it's the heavens opened up. So it's kind of
tying those two together. But, it allowed the holy spirit to descend. it was in bodily form of a dove. Indicates that the spirit had an outward appearance of a dove. This is one of those ones, again, that's like, can be twisted or looked at in all the weird ways. >> Muireadhach: Yeah. So it's interesting here because. Yeah, you get into the different people who talk about it. It does mention here in Luke in a bodily form, which when you get into the language there
and you have bodily. I think it's like somatika coming from soma, or soma meaning body. And it's just like, that is actual, like corporal body, like having a bodily form. So that is interesting that coming down from heaven, like, was a body coming down like something physical and corporal coming down to come upon Jesus. But then it's saying like a dove. Yeah, and that, like a dove. That's where it's like, okay, well, did it
look like a dove? Is dove representing like, like the meekness and gentleness and like that kind of thing? I'm more just like something physical just came out of heaven and landed on this. Like, I'm more on that. Okay, it looks like a dove. It acts like a, like whatever you're trying to say, like, y'all are just standing in a river and the heavens opened up, you hear a voice and something comes from heaven and lands on this man. It doesn't matter what it looks like.
I mean, it matters to a point. That's why. That's why it's there. But, like, yeah, I would be inclined. >> Chris: To agree with you on that 100% that there was something physically that happened. it reminds me of revelation, a lot, because in revelation, you get, it was so, this is what it was. And then John then goes, it was like. And obviously, the like is like that at his time, was the only thing he could make the connection
to. And just thinking here, if, Luke is an eyewitness and he's getting this from eyewitness accounts, this is probably. It was like a dove, and maybe someone was thinking Genesis one, two, where the spirit was hovering above the water like a bird, and kind of making those connections. But like you said, it could be so many reasons, like the purity of Jesus, like, the
dove is pure. and, all that. So, yeah, I would agree that it's something physically burst out of heaven, and that was their only way they could make it make sense. >> Muireadhach: Can I go on a little sidetrack before we get to the blow of sun? Because I know that you're getting to that one next. I don't know if you have anything on this. or if I'm just gonna go solo, but before, when we were talking about John's baptism, right? So he's baptizing, as we said, repentance,
forgiveness of sins, and that's what he's got going on. But when he talks about, hey, the one that's gonna come, because you were saying he's preparing the way for the one, here's the king, and, like, here's the anointing of the king. You can look at it that way. But he was saying, I'm baptizing you with water. He's going to baptize you with the holy spirit and with fire. And to my knowledge, Jesus didn't baptize anyone during his ministry, right. He never
took anyone to a river like what John was doing. Now. John was still alive after this point, and he kept baptizing people. And later on, you get to acts, and you have people who were baptized in John's baptism. And then Paul would be like, okay, well, you need to be baptized in what Jesus has going on. So it's an interesting thing. Jesus didn't baptize
anybody, but then go to the great commission. He told his followers to go and baptize people into his name in the name of the Father, the Son, and spirit. But that thing about baptizing with fire and why it was the connection for me is like, okay, heaven's opened up and something like a dove comes onto Jesus when you get the day of Pentecost. Right. So this is after the resurrection, which the new covenant that Jesus is coming to do is like the covenant of the Holy Spirit. So, like, he's going
to baptize you with the Holy Spirit. That didn't happen during Jesus lifetime, right? Well, I guess technically it did. Cause he was resurrected and he has life. You get what I mean? >> Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Earthly. >> Muireadhach: He was still on earth. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: You get what I mean? Anyways, like, he. It's when they're in the room and again, descending from heaven is something like flames or
tongues of fire coming down. And that baptizing of fire and the Holy Spirit, that happens at that point. just the difference in like, what's coming down from heaven and what that is. And the call back to like, here's how he's gonna baptize you. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: And like, that was the follow up. Is that, like, that's when that happened?
>> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: just because we're talking about baptizing and Jesus, and like, John says he's gonna baptize you and then you kind of don't see that for a minute. And even when that happens, he's. Yeah, he's up in heaven sitting on the throne, so he's not taking somebody and putting them in water. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: Yeah. >> Chris: It's interesting because I never thought of that either. So that's why I was sitting here
thinking as you're talking about, like, what? No, Jesus didn't baptize anybody. Then my mind went like, man, if you were baptized by Jesus, wouldn't have that been the coolest thing ever, which is probably why no one was baptized. >> Muireadhach: By Jesus, which is also where Paul is just like, y'all are fighting who baptized? I'm glad I didn't actually. I did baptize two of you guys. But beyond that, like, that's not what this is about.
>> Chris: Yeah, yeah. Cause that's not what it's about. And it was about that fire, that second baptism of the holy spirit and all of them making, I think, just its illusion to an illusion to an illusion to get to that big moment of what that is. God speaks. So this is the first time God speaks in the New Testament. >> Muireadhach: You're all about these firsts during this series. You've really been pulling out a lot of first. >> Chris: They're interesting because they make me understand things
differently. And with this, his first words are, you are my son, whom I love. With you I am well pleased. This is before Jesus has done anything. None of the miracles, none of the ministry, the water to wine, the teaching, the preaching, the death on the cross before he's done anything. God says, you are my son. With you, I am well pleased. and I love you. To me, that's more of a personal thing than a teaching thing of like, how God can love us
before we've even done anything. and it just shows his love there. but this lets us know who Jesus is from gabriel, Elizabeth, Zechariah, the heavenly host, Simeon and Anna, all saying this. Now we get like, this big confirmation of, this is my son with who. >> Muireadhach: Am I 30 years later? >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. The follow up to all of that, and I think Luke's using all those to set the groundwork for this moment. >> Muireadhach: Yeah, I think that as well. I, wanted to
confirm that. I think that, but I also had another thought of, you're saying, like, before he's done anything. I think that really what sets Jesus apart, though, is like, he actually has done so much. Like, you lamed off, like, all these miraculous things that are gonna come, but we go back to, like, twelve year old Jesus didn't. You know, I'm m about my father's business. He submitted himself to
obedience under his parents. It's just like he's a, loved son, and he's well pleased because he's been faithful to his father. He's been obedient up until this point, which isn't to take away from, like, God loves us even. Like, he loved us even when we were sinners. Like, he sent Jesus to die for us. Right. So it's not taking away, like, God doesn't love you because you haven't been perfect. Right. But that's where I get this is like, this marks Jesus apart, obviously, Jesus
marked apart because this is happening. It's like, yeah, he was sinless. When you look at, like, this is my son. Like, the firstborn son, my only begotten son. You know, all those things are just like, yeah, he's, he's the special one. And I just want to play off that. Like, he hadn't done anything yet. And just like, he did the quote unquote boring thing. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Obedience of just living life obediently. >> Chris: Yeah. Being circumcised on the 8th day, all.
>> Muireadhach: This stuff, listening to mom and dad. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah, it's a good point. Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Which just is like, God is pleased with just going to that personal thing. Why, that's a personal thing for me. Like, don't think that God's not pleased with you because amazing things aren't happening in your life. Just go live a. But doesn't, say in scripture, like, hey, just go live a quiet, good life. Yeah, all this crazy stuff
doesn't have to happen. Just go be obedient to God. Live a quiet life, love the people around you, and, like, it's not a confirmation by all of the extra stuff. Like, yeah, you get to the end, and well done. >> Chris: Yeah. It made me think of, Jesus talking about. I don't know if it's when he hands out the parable of the, money, and then some people bury it, some people put it in deposit, whatever it is. and then it's, at the end of it. Those who are faithful in the little will
be given much. and I. I don't know. I'm pretty sure this is just me making odd connections. But you talking about, like, well, he was obedient in the little. Before the big came. >> Muireadhach: Right. >> Chris: If, as he's saying that, that's personalized. Like, I live this life. I, ah, know that being faithful in the little, then God will entrust you with much more. >> Muireadhach: Dang. Yeah. >> Chris: Again, could be reading a little bit much into it, but I like what you're reading.
>> Muireadhach: I'll read that book. >> Chris: Yeah. I did read, in a commentary, that this, is kind of a pooling of psalms two. this you are my son thing. And that's why do the nations conspire and the people plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up, and the rulers, and rulers together against the lord and against his anointed, saying, let us break their chains and throw off their shackles. The anointed or the one enthroned and one is capitalized?
The one enthroned in heaven lasts. The lord scoffs at them. He rebukes them in anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain. I will proclaim the lord's decree. He said to me, you are my son. Today I have become your father. so you see this like, this old Testament kind of, callback? because here, the way David's talking in the psalm, it's obviously not david being writing about
himself. He's writing about someone to come and a king that will sit on Zion on the holy mountain. >> Muireadhach: But psalm two was used as a coronation psalm in ancient Israel. >> Chris: Oh, okay. >> Muireadhach: Did you know that, so like when a king was being corona. Coronation. When a king was becoming king. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: I don't know what the past tense of coronation is coordinated. That's all I could think of my life.
yeah. So when a king was being installed, that psalm would be read during the coronation service. >> Chris: Oh, that's interesting. >> Muireadhach: So the idea was that the psalm would remind the davidic king of his calling to represent God's rule on earth and everything else that kind of comes with that. So even here, that's where, when you said earlier, they're like, oh, he's the king.
>> Muireadhach: And this was like his anointing, I thought that you were making the call back to that because. >> Chris: No, not yet. >> Muireadhach: No saying. And that callback is what that means. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: So yes, he's the son, but it's also like, here's the king. >> Chris: Yeah. And then you have. That's what God says, you are my son today. So it's the, >> Muireadhach: So it's like, yeah, the fulfillment of, like you were saying, like, yeah,
he's looking to a future one. It's like, so here is the future one. But also in practice, this is what you would say for a king. >> Chris: Yeah, that's pretty cool. No, I didn't make those two connections. I just had those random notes on my, my thing. the other thing is, if we look at this, like God's message every time he speaks audibly in the new testament, the transfiguration, I, think it's when Jesus, is in the garden, he speaks
again. They're all doing the same thing, declaring that this is my son and I'm well pleased with him. It's, over and over again, this is my son, who I'm well pleased. So it is just this God highly speaking of who Jesus is, and confirming with everybody, this is the king, he's here. The savior that you're looking for, the one you're trying to find, the one you've been waiting for, here he is over and over again. for the most
part, that's all I have. and then I have some stuff on Noah that I got from Hyzer as well. >> Muireadhach: I want to hear that. But also, as you were talking about, the well pleased. And just like, well pleased, well pleased. There's the concept of Jesus being the second Adam. Right, right. And looking at the new creation and kind of taking things back there, and I think about when Adam and Eve are created and God says, very good, that seems like a
well pleased. So now when we're looking at, like, this new creation for humanity. And he's saying, like, yeah, look, here's my son. I'm well pleased. And just kind of, I don't know, I'm making that kind of restoration. When we're entering into a Christ like life, we're going back to like, yeah, it's very good, you know, being made back into not just like the image of God, but back into the likeness of God. >> Chris: Right.
>> Muireadhach: And, like, that's where he's well pleased with that. Okay, noah. >> Chris: I like that. That was really cool. so this again, something I heard from Heiser. It's from first Peter 318 to 22. and basically, I'll read it. It says, for Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous and the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned
spirits, to those who were disobedient. Long ago, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built in it, only a few people, eight in all, were saved through the water. And this water symbolized baptism that now saves you also. Not the removal of dirt from your body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward, God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand with angels, authorities, powers and submission
to him. So I'm just going to read his answer. but this is his response to all of this, because he asked, if we follow what we read, and wondered what it has to do with baptism, the ark, knowing the prison stuff, like, what does all this have to do with this concept? So he says in Genesis six, there's a connection with two, Peter and Jude. These texts refer to the jewish tradition and the book verse Enoch describing fallen
angels imprisoned in the underworld. Enoch, a biblical prophet, was asked by the angels to intercede for them, but God denied their appeal. Their imprisonment is until the end of time. Peter sees a, theological connection between Genesis six events and the gospels resurrection. Jesus, like Enoch, descended, to announce defeat to the fallen angels, emphasized in one Peter. What I just read, this victory declaration is why baptism is, linked to this concept.
Baptism symbolizes a pledge of loyalty to the risen savior and serves as a reminder to the defeated angels. It's a public declaration of loyalty. In the cosmic war between good and evil, baptism in early christian understanding is a form of spiritual warfare against the fallen angels in Genesis six. So, here he sees baptism as this connection between, our proclamation and declaration to the evil principalities, the rulers of the world, that we belong to God.
>> Chris: And I really love that because I never got that connection to it. I would look at it as growing up again talking about how we grew up knowing baptism as just the symbolic thing of it's just a symbol, it's like a wedding ring. and a lot of people say that, and I get it for basic understanding. but at some point there's got to be a deeper understanding of why this
has been a tradition that's been kept going on and on. And I just love that this was, our loyalty to the principalities of saying we're on God's side now. >> Muireadhach: Yeah. Ever since I came across that, I've started integrating that. Not a lot because it's hard for new believers to kind of get fully onto that, but I'll, I'll bring some of that up. When kind of counseling people through who are getting ready to get baptized, I'm like, a lot of people are like, I don't want to get up there in
front of everybody and all this stuff. I'm like, well, little do you know, you're getting up in front of a lot more than just the people sitting in the chairs. And here's why it's such a good thing. and really like, hey, like, why is it that you're wanting to follow Jesus? Like, what's going on there? It's just like, yeah, you're wanting to get away from the life that you're living. Like, this is the
moment of declaration. And like, to kind of just take all the things that we talked about was like, yeah, you're going to look at a declaration of loyalty. There's like, no, I'm done with following any thing other than Jesus. I'm declaring that, and in declaring that, I'm going to show that by going down into the waters and basically going, I'm dying to. Everything that was there, that person who was following that person is not even alive
anymore to follow. Like when I come up out of those waters, I'm a new person and everything is following God. And in that, like, that actually is a real thing that takes place because I'm actually forgiven. And I'm received the holy spirit that is making me Christ, like, to where I am a child of God. Right. Jesus says for all who believe, he gives the right to become children of God. So it's just like so much there within like baptism. I know I'm stretching a little bit outside of
baptism towards this. Like, a lot of people look at it like, well, I believe, like, do I really need to do that? And it's like, man, with the proper perspective on it. I mean, it's good even if you don't have all this stuff. But, like, if this isn't enticing you to go, like, yeah, I do want that. Like, let me step fully into that. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: it should. I would hope that it would.
>> Chris: Yeah. That's why I think it's important. Like, I know we could get caught up, and I love that you brought in the, the thief, on the cross as people's ways of saying, like, well, I don't need to do the thing because it's just symbolic anyways. And I know in my heart it's different. But what really, through the studying and things that I've done and what we presented is a glimpse of what's really out there. We're trying to do
something in 60 minutes. And, really, this could be like hours and hours and hours of study to get to an understanding. But what, what baptism does is way more important than where it came from, in my opinion. because what it does is it removes a person from the world, the world system of evil, the source of sin that's in our lives, the way of thinking. Like the world, that we need to be purified from the way of life
we've been living. And all its residue that's on us, it's a declaration of spiritual warfare, saying that we are on God's team, we are on his side. It's the beginning of membership in the family of God, just like how we saw circumcision. And then finally, and this is the best part, it makes us co heirs with Christ. All the promises of Christ, all the promises given to him, the well done. This is my son. With whom am I well pleased. All of that falls onto us,
and that's why baptism is so important. again, we did our best to bring up ideas and concepts from the Old Testament to see how they connect to the New Testament and why John started doing it. But to me, I think what it actually does is more important than where it came from. and that's all I got. What do you got? >> Muireadhach: I don't have a lot to say. I already kind of said my big thing, but a couple things just off of the way more important with what it does.
Paul really looks at like, baptism being the defining event of salvation. And cause a lot of it was just like, okay, you might say that you believe, but it's when you're confessing and repenting and being baptized, it's just like, that's really taking that step and like, that's a defining moment. And in that, he uses that event as a callback as part of his argument for why sin is inappropriate in the life of a believer. If you look at Romans six one four, that disunity
among believers is not permissible. First Corinthians 110 13. Then again in chapter twelve, that, gentiles are Abraham's children, Galatians three. Kind of how you're talking about joint heirs and you're coming into the family. or that one should remain free of human philosophy and traditions. And that's in Colossians two. So kind of this event of baptism, Paul, when he's like, remember how you guys are baptized? That's why this thing is a different thing. But, yeah, I feel like that really
is more on the entry point. It's the entry point into like, cool, you've done that. You're in. That's why this whole thing changes. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. So what do we got? Next episode? >> Muireadhach: next episode, jesus takes a, cheek swab, sends it off, and we get the results back from his, 23 andme. >> Chris: Yeah, we're gonna look at the genealogy of Jesus. >> Muireadhach: Yeah, that'll be fun. >> Chris: That will be so, I'm Chris. >> Muireadhach: I'm, Muireadhach
>> Chris: We are your church friends. Thanks for listening.