>> Muireadhach: On a mission, on a quest, on a search, or discovering the truth. Join us on our journey to discovering a savior. >> Chris: All right, welcome to your church friends podcast. I'm Chris. >> Muireadhach: I'm Muireadhach >> Chris: And we are recording midday hours as we normally do. Well, more. It's like noon when we normally record, but, you know, it's not after hours. It's, you know, middle of the day hours.
Just throwing it out there just in case we're not on the same, like, levels of, like, an after hours episode or a noon recording. >> Muireadhach: You're like, you know what? This is some weird. They recorded 3 hours after they normally would. >> Chris: Uh, that does a lot to me, though. >> Muireadhach: Yeah, you're weird. >> Chris: Yeah. Time, like, if I in between that noontime normal start to like 04:00. Like, sometimes I need a nap, so it's a lot different. >> Muireadhach: I took a nap.
>> Chris: Did you? >> Muireadhach: I was on that chair when I was leaving to go get, uh, Casey. Sociology. Did you catch me taking a nap in the office? And she just laughed and she was like, no. I was like, oh, well, I've been at work for too long, so it's like a 20 minutes. Yeah. >> Chris: So hopefully it'll be a good one, but I feel like it will. I kind of want to just jump into this episode.
>> Muireadhach: Good. Every single time I'm sitting. Like, what kind of weird thing you're gonna do in the beginning? >> Chris: Question am I gonna ask? >> Muireadhach: Yeah, I'm glad that you stopped asking me about movies. >> Chris: Yeah. I feel it's. You're a lot like Justine, where I'm like, hey, have you seen this movie? She's like, no. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Why? Why am m. I supposedly. >> Muireadhach: Yes, I've seen that movie. >> Chris: Do you remember? That movie's not.
>> Muireadhach: Doesn't allow me to partake in this conversation. My media references need to flow naturally on whatever it is that my brain came up with. >> Chris: Yeah, that's what I've learned. So that's how we work better on that. >> Muireadhach: So it just lets you talk for an hour on whatever series. >> Chris: You're the current movie series. No, I can't. What did I finish? Mission Impossible. So, yeah. Still trying to figure out what's next for me.
Let's get into this. Cause I feel like this is a pretty big question. I kind of feel like it's a question that, like, I think even christians today, we still struggle with it. It's basically, we're gonna look at it as being unclean, the same as sinful. And really, where I see it, where it relates with today is how sometimes as christians, it's the like. But I'm saved. I got baptized. Why am I still sinning type thing? >> Muireadhach: Because you're unclean. So, you filthy sinner.
>> Chris: Yeah, filthy pagan. >> Muireadhach: Go read, James. Wash your hands. Oh, wait. That was the COVID verse, huh? Yeah. Yeah. >> Chris: So I kind of figure it's still a, uh, pertinent question. So do you want to read the passage, or do you want me to? >> Muireadhach: I'll, uh, read it. While Jesus was in one of the towns, a man came along who was covered with leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell face down and begged him to lord, if you're willing, you can make me clean. Jesus
reached out his hand and touched the man. I am willing, he said, be clean. And immediately, the leprosy left him. Do not tell anyone, Jesus instructed him, but go show yourself to the priest and present the offering Moses prescribed for your cleansing as a testimony to them. But the news about Jesus spread all the more, and the great crowds came to hear him and to be healed of their sicknesses. Yet he frequently withdrew to the wilderness to pray.
>> Chris: Leprosy. It's always a fun conversation. >> Muireadhach: Yeah. >> Chris: Talking about leprosy, um, there's a few things, actually, when I looked into it that I was like, I didn't really actually know this about leprosy or how they defined leprosy or what it looked like in the Bible. >> Muireadhach: Okay, so I'm wondering what you're gonna come up with this, because as I was looking at stuff, there's a broad range of kind of how people are interpreting this thing of leprosy.
>> Chris: Right? Yeah, there is. It's like the. Like, any skin disease or. Or something like that to, like, what we now know as Hansen's disease. Like, there's to that. So it's like, yeah, when I was. >> Muireadhach: A kid hearing about leprosy, it was all the walking dead. >> Chris: Yes. >> Muireadhach: What is this disease? Like? It is zombies. >> Chris: It turns you into living zombies. Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Like, things are just dying. Like, your fingers are falling off.
Like, your skin is just, like, getting saggy to the point of just like, oh, look, I just left some when I stood up, like, yeah. That's all that I understood it. So then I was studying, and it's just like, oh, no. Like, it could be like some bad eczema. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Sorry. Did you just hear that little kid in your head too? >> Chris: Which one? >> Muireadhach: That little kid is like, you got eggs? You know what video I'm talking about? I was on the do later. Yeah.
>> Chris: Send it to me. Later. No, I didn't hear that. I was just thinking of one of those, um, uh, like, those commercials for that, like, a weird name disease or something, like, to help with your eczema thing. Side effects may be da da da da da da, and hair loss. >> Muireadhach: And from what I hear, dealing with severe eczema isn't fun, but at least it's not, like, leprosy, like Hansen's disease or what you're calling it. >> Chris: Yeah. And so that was kind of
more of the. It's weird. I'm on the flip side. Growing up, I kind of was told that, like, well, leprosy in the Bible wasn't what we consider this or that. You know, some people, it was just, like, rashes, skin diseases, you know, and because it was different, um, that's what people considered as leprosy. Ah. So there's, like, all different types of leprosy or skin diseases that cover, like, the gauntlet of all of them. >> Muireadhach: Oh, yeah. So you were taught the biblical thing.
>> Chris: Yeah, yeah. But when I was looking at this one and kind of looking more into, like, the walking dead one, I was like, oh, man, this is, like, kind of crazy because, like, yeah, like we talked about, it's basically a skin condition that causes the skin to die. Like, your skin is basically dying, and it starts, like. Like, at the fingertips, the nose and stuff like that. And it starts as it spreads. >> Muireadhach: So that's what I heard of just, like, people's noses falling off.
>> Chris: Yeah, yeah. Just like, randomly just plop down or, like, the ears falling off. Uh, and they. >> Muireadhach: My brain right now with stuff is just like. You gave that warning, you see, misses doubtfire. >> Chris: Yes. >> Muireadhach: When she's got the cream and is, like, falling off of her face. Yeah. I'm just picturing, like, a nose. She's like, bloop, bloop. Right off one nose or two. >> Chris: But it has a snow. Like, it was, like, a white marks.
It's kind of like the start of it. Um, the other thing I read, and this was interesting to me was that it attacks the nerves. So, like, the person can't even feel it at that point, like, which, thankfully. Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Cause any skin stuff like that and all that. Like that. Mm hmm. That sucks. >> Chris: So, yeah, if it's just, like, rotting. >> Muireadhach: Away, not that you want to be losing feeling as well, but I feel like I would rather lose the feeling in that situation.
>> Chris: Right, right. >> Muireadhach: Sorry. Can I just show you this? >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: What you got? Eczema. >> Chris: Eczema? I thought it was eczema. >> Muireadhach: He's like, why you got these bums. You got eggs. I love that kid. >> Chris: Yeah, it's great. Kids are great when it comes to stuff like that. Yeah. Uh, yesterday. Totally off topic. Yesterday. Uh, so we're doing our
summer program with the kids here, and reid came home. He's brought his friend from school to it, and we're driving to take him home. And when we get home, reid says to justine, he's like, mom, elijah has a question for you. And I thought it was gonna be something like, can I spend the night? Which I was gonna immediately be like, no. You know, like, because I just want a kid spending the night tonight. Um, but he said, uh, does Reid really have $3,000?
He was like, I told him. And justine was like, well, yes, technically, but it's in his bank. You know, we set up a bank account for him, so we're saving money so that he'll have it for when he graduates. And Rito's like, see, I told you. And elisha, his friend was like, oh, man, now we gotta tell all the other boys. And I'm like, no, stop telling people how much money you have. Rebbe was there, too. She's like, reeve, you don't tell people how much money you have. But kids, they just.
They don't care. Anyways, back to the program. Yeah, uh, sorry. >> Muireadhach: I'm just throwing it off left and right. >> Chris: The infection sets in, and it leads to, uh, degeneration of tissues. Uh, not to be graphic, but, you know, it's rotting, it's falling off. The limbs are gangrenous, and, you know, the fingers and toes, they just start coming off. So, uh, basically it spreads until
the person can't take care of themselves anymore and they die. So this is, you know, what we're talking about. Leprosy in the sense of the Hansen's disease comparison. Not so much the eczema, but, like, in mark one. >> Muireadhach: So we were just reading that out of Luke, chapter five. But in mark one, Jesus also comes across, you know, with leprosy. And there's various other stories of him coming across people with leprosy. Are you saying that everything is all this gangrenous? Are you saying.
>> Chris: No, this story. >> Muireadhach: This story. >> Chris: This story is that. And I'll get to it in a little bit because I feel like there's, like, Luke gives a little. A little hint, a little different to, uh, it. But, uh, the real thing. That's crazy. And this I didn't know is that today we still. Still don't have a cure for it. Like, there's treatments. >> Muireadhach: Yeah, there's treatments, but no cure. >> Chris: No cure. So first century, there's
no cure, there's no hope. You are literally, like you said, zombies. Like, you are the walking dead. Like, it's literally death. Um, so then we get into like these. Why we're looking at is unclean the same as sin? Because then there's the, um, levitical laws, right? They didn't want this to pass from people to people because they didn't really know how people were catching this. So anyone with leprosy was thrown outside of the cities. >> Muireadhach: Is that why?
>> Chris: I believe so. What do you have? >> Muireadhach: Well, we're looking at this thing of unclean, right? I think that wrapping into, like, why would we even equate unclean with sinful? Mhm. Right. So it's just like, that's what we're tracking on. You just said, well, these people are unclean. They're put outside of the camp. Right. They're on the outside, but the purpose for that happening, because there's other things that are unclean as well that you need to go through various
rituals. Maybe some of it is like, yeah, you're also outside of the camp for some amount of time. Or is like, hey, you need to go through these various washings in order to present yourself clean. Or as Jesus was just directing this person, hey, go and give the offering that's directed from Moses as a testimony this has happened. So there's these things, but it's all about, like, can you come to the temple? >> Chris: Right?
>> Muireadhach: Like, there's the temple as the epicenter, but then, like, as it comes out, there's like, the camp or the city, right. And just like, are you allowed in what proximity to God can you have? >> Chris: Yes. >> Muireadhach: Based on your cleanliness, ritual cleanliness is what. What it's looking at. So I think that's where it comes in as far as. Was it sin? Because just like, you're saying that I can't come to the temple. >> Chris: Mm hmm.
>> Muireadhach: So I'm like, outside of being able to come into God's presence, and we're tying in this thing of like, having some form of offering in some situations that are needed, like generally for modern christians, for the most part, we look at, oh, an offering. So, like, sin happened. So you need to give an offering to like, make up for that, right? M so I think, yeah. All the confusion coming in with that, um. Um. To circle back around to leprosy, is it because it was
contagious that they were put outside? It's like, from what I can see, maybe. Yes. But also more reasons than that, going back to. And I don't know if now is the time that you want to just jump into, like, that whole thing of being in God's presence and why these things being unclean. >> Chris: Oh, yeah. >> Muireadhach: Why they weren't allowed. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: So you brought up Leviticus. Mm hmm. And it's
like. So this is Leviticus. What eleven through 15 is dealing with, uh, things that are unclean? >> Chris: Uh, yes. >> Muireadhach: I want to say you got eleven through 15 is things that's unclean. You have 16 is the day of atonement. Then you have 17 through 19 is things that are common. >> Chris: I think 17 has, uh, the as is ale part. >> Muireadhach: Oh, still the day of a domain. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: And then. So 718.
>> Chris: And then Leviticus 13 is our favorite chapter on, uh, skin diseases. >> Muireadhach: Mhm. So, yeah, but you're looking at that, and it's all kind of attached. But what's interesting when I was looking at it is if you have Leviticus ten and Leviticus 16 seems to be telling a story, and then you have eleven through 15 are kind of, like, put in there. >> Chris: Yeah. Yeah. >> Muireadhach: So ten, you're looking at a nahab and abayu. >> Chris: Oh, the two sons.
>> Muireadhach: Yeah, the two sons. Who. >> Chris: They go, Aaron's two sons. Just to clarify for everyone listening, did. >> Muireadhach: I say the names right? I don't have notes in front of me. I'm just going off of, like, memory on this. Um, but they go and they offer what the Bible terms as strange fire, and the fire consumes them. So they're going. And they're going out with the way that they should be approaching God. They're offering up the strange fire with that, and then they are
consumed. So you have these two sons of the priests that are coming, and this situation happens, and then the story just kind of goes, all right, let's talk about all this unclean stuff, like, what is clean, what is unclean? But then you get to Leviticus 16, and it starts back up again. So those two suns that were consumed by the fire, and it's just like. It's a weird interjection into Leviticus that's looking at what is clean, what is unclean. And I think that that
really ties it in. When you look at Nahab and Abihu, were coming to present something to God, and they did it incorrectly. And then you get this whole section on kind of coming into God's presence and what's allowed and what's not allowed, and how do you keep yourself clean to be able to do that? Or if you become unclean. How do you go through the process of, like, becoming ritually, ceremonially clean again to come into God's
presence? So that being said, I think that just that concept of they did it incorrectly and they were consumed is showing more the thought of what this is. It's less to do with, like, oh, well, it's a sinful thing. It's more. You're coming into the presence of God. And there's something about, like, how humans need to do that otherwise, m. You get consumed in some. What's his name? That when they were carrying the ark and he. Oh, uh, Uziah. Yes, I think it's Uzia. Right.
>> Chris: Yeah, I knew it starts. It starts with the you. Yeah. >> Muireadhach: So again, same thing. They were told, like, hey, you shouldn't touch this. They even had, like, that's why they were supposed to be carrying on the poles, but they had it on a cart, and it was about to fall off of the cart, and then he reached out to stabilize it and he just gets dropped dead. Because, like, God is this holy power.
>> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: And if you're coming into or touching or interacting with that incorrectly, then it's dangerous. >> Chris: Yes. Yeah. I think that's probably the best way to phrase it. That, like, it's dangerous on how you come to God if it's incorrect. >> Muireadhach: Yeah. So it's more like, oh, the cleanliness is more to do with safety. >> Chris: Mm hmm. Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Is how I would see that.
>> Chris: Yeah. And for me, when I was looking at it, did, there was like a, you know, it was a kind of a two fold thing where, like, okay, we needed to get this out of the community before it spreads, because then the rest of us can't be in the presence of God. So how do we prevent something from infecting the community? That's, uh, why there's, like, the, I mean, you talked about it, the clean laws. So ceremony
ceremonially unclean. And then the difference between morally unclean, like, the actions that are way worse than, you know, it's like murder, rape. >> Muireadhach: Death, which even there, when I was looking at it, because, uh, the question that we're looking at is, is unclean the same as sinful. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: And it seemed like not all sin would result in ceremonial uncleanliness. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: It seemed like mostly it would be sexual immorality
and idolatry. Mhm. Pay you into that. But, like, other stuff could be going on and you could still kind of go to the temple without performing these ritualistic things. >> Chris: Right. But it was really the, for me, looking at it, the idea is like, okay, so we need to get this out of the community because then it affects the whole community and it's, you know, like, getting it so that there's prevention of all of this, like, the spreading of it. >> Muireadhach: Right.
>> Chris: Whether it's, you know, the, uh, worshipping a false idol or, you know, a leprosy, it was just like, this needs. This is unclean. And they were there for a purpose. >> Muireadhach: Of when you were looking into it. Because some of what I was seeing is that maybe, uh, it's not as contagious as, again, my Sunday school. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: Understanding was just like, oh, no, super contagious. So they just couldn't be
around people. And like, yeah, it is contagious, but maybe like, not all that. Like, I don't. I didn't look far enough into the biology. >> Chris: What I looked into it, it was more of like, they just didn't know. Right. Like, honestly, it's crazy looking and studying into leprosy and like, the parameters that were put around the people and people who had leprosy and what they had to do. It really gave me pandemic flashbacks.
>> Muireadhach: Mhm. >> Chris: Of like, what it was to, like, if you were quarantined, you're quarantined, you're unclean. >> Muireadhach: Hey, you can check in and see, like, if it's been solved. >> Chris: Yeah. And even people with leprosy, that's what they would do. They would, uh. Cause they're exiled outside of the community. People, their family would bring them food and leave it at a place for them to come and get it. I think of Ben
Hur. Have you seen the old Ben Hur with Charlton Dustin and his mom and sister end up getting, uh. As he's going through his journey of becoming who he is, uh, they end up getting leprosy. So when he comes back to find them, uh, they're lepers. And so they, uh. But the girl who was supposed to, like, tend to the house was taking them food still. >> Muireadhach: Mhm. >> Chris: In their cave. And that's another area where, like, they would live outside of camps
and caves and cities and stuff like that. Outside of the cities. Uh, but, you know, it was like, a lot of it was to remove themselves. So that way they're not there because they just didn't know, like, how do people get this? How are people getting it from one thing? And that was a lot of, again, what the pandemic at the beginning was, was like, how are we getting Covid. How are people catching all this stuff? So it did give me these weird flashbacks.
>> Muireadhach: So that's what I was saying. Like, yes, I think that that's part of it. Which seems like you looked more into some of the medical stuff. Like, yeah, yes. And they also didn't know. So all that included. But I do think that the thing of, because what they would eat, what other things could make you unclean? Ceremonially? >> Chris: Ah, ceremonially, uh, bodily discharges. >> Muireadhach: Um, so men and women discharges. >> Chris: Yes, yes. Fluid. Yes.
>> Muireadhach: Infer what that is. If that doesn't make sense, it's not after. >> Chris: I'm not going there. >> Muireadhach: You can ask your mom or dad. Right? >> Chris: Imagine that, like 50 years old going to ask your eight year old dad, what's bodily fluids? >> Muireadhach: These guys are really bad at describing things on the podcast. I just don't know what they're talking about. >> Chris: Yes. >> Muireadhach: Um, um. Oh, uh, but yeah, that for men.
>> Chris: And women, touching a dead body. >> Muireadhach: Touching a dead body. >> Chris: Touching a dead body is another one. Um, menstruating for a woman would be on, on that list too. >> Muireadhach: That's a bodily fluid. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. But different from the other bodily fluid. >> Muireadhach: Childbirth. >> Chris: Childbirth, yeah. So there's like just these random things of like, they weren't necessarily bad things that would make you unclean.
>> Muireadhach: So going to the menstruating thing, did women have to go outside of the camp? >> Chris: I believe so, yes, I believe so. Right? >> Muireadhach: Yeah. And yeah, I was kind of joking with you. It's just like, yeah, oh, yeah, once a month, all the guys were just like, yo, we're having a week long barbecue. Like, all the women are out of the camp. Yeah, yeah, we're having a beast feast. >> Chris: Yeah.
>> Muireadhach: Which is then looking at the beast fees. Other things that were unclean, looking at stuff would be even animals. So that's where you get the, um, dietary laws, right? There's like, hey, these animals are okay or clean, and these ones are unclean. >> Chris: So you got like owls and other birds that are unclean. >> Muireadhach: Mhm. >> Chris: And then you have like the birds that you can eat. And it's the same thing with the animals. Like hooved animals, I think it is. Right.
That are the hood ones unclean because it's like the camel pigs that have like the split. >> Muireadhach: Yeah. If it's split, you can't do that. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. So those were animals you couldn't eat. >> Muireadhach: Did you dive into any of the food stuff? I know that we're looking at leprosy. >> Chris: No, no. A lot of this part is just me going off of memory of super. >> Muireadhach: Interesting on like, well, why were those things unclean?
And it ties into this whole thing again. So this thing of, like, safety and coming into God's presence was like, why would it not be safe if you've had bodily discharges or you've touched a corpse or any of these things have happened? And it really has to do with God being, like, the holy God that he is. I want to say that throughout that section on Leviticus, it just keeps repeating, because I'm Yahweh. Yeah, like, you're doing
this because I'm Yahweh. You're doing this because I'm Yahweh. Like, he is the holy, set apart God above all gods, right? And in approaching him, his complete holiness, and also just getting that life, like, the ultimate life force that he is. Right. That I still don't know how to describe that. I'm just like, he's pure life, but yet that can be, like, dangerous and kill you, you know what I mean? When handled incorrectly. Like, just the power that's
there. Um, but that when you're looking at scripturally, the power of life is in the blood. So, like, if menstruating or childbirth or things of that nature, like, blood is going out, so it's like your life force has gone out of you. You are not whole. Whole and complete coming into contact with a corpse. You come into contact with something dead, so you are not clean to come into the presence of a holy God with his all powerful life. >> Chris: Um, Mildew was another one.
>> Muireadhach: Yeah, mildew. So even, like, okay, so why Mildew and why these animals? Like, why are these animals unclean? What's going on? And through studying it, there's really interesting things that it does come down to, almost like, what aligns with life and what aligns with a natural, good order of things versus what's aligning with death and kind of more chaos with stuff. And, um,
so that's where fish, like, what fish are? Okay, so it's like, well, fish that have scales, you can eat those, but other fish that don't have scales is just like, the way that they are, are within their sphere of m. Like, well, there's, um, what we call, like, shellfish. >> Chris: Mhm. >> Muireadhach: It's just like, that's not natural for, like, a water environment. >> Chris: Right? >> Muireadhach: Like, fish are supposed to swim. You're not doing the swimming
thing. So you're not having the full picture of what it means to be a water creature. Even when you get to, like, some of the birds, there's, like, birds that are just straight up, like, flying birds. Sure. But the birds that, like, dive into the water or swim and have that. It's kind of like, yeah, maybe not so much. Cause, like, you're in the air, but then onto the other side of things. But these birds also eat carrions, so they're going and touching dead, and they're eating the
dead in that manner. So it's like, you also can't do those. >> Chris: Yeah, like a vulture or buzzard. >> Muireadhach: Yeah, exactly. And then when it comes to other animals of, like, how well do they respect, like, even the order that man is creating versus, like, some of those would be invasive to come in and just, like, start destroying things down or, like, so again, kind of that chaos is things that you can see are aligning with order and good. Like, what is man
establishing? And how well do things function within that? So, like, wild boars come in, would, like, tear things out, whereas then even looking at mildew or different things of that nature, of just, like, things that are destroying, like, a house that men have built, like, I don't know, it's really interesting. There's a lot of different, um, opinions and studies into it, but this was kind of the most complete thing that.
>> Chris: I could find that actually makes the animals, like, the birds eating other animals, like, because they're touching a dead body, like, even a hawk or a falcon, that's like, eating other flesh. So they're unclean because they've touched dead flesh. And if a, uh, person touches dead flesh, they're unclean. So why. Yeah, that actually does make a lot more sense. Okay. When you start thinking about which animals are allowed to eat and which ones weren't part of that whole scheme of things.
>> Muireadhach: Yeah. I want to say, like, a huge name within the study is a milgram. Uh, I think it's milgromm. And then other people building on top of it, I want to say is, I think it's all last names. So it'd be like, Carol and Douglas kind of. Anyone listening to look those up, those are the ones who I think it was. Douglas kind of pushed it the farthest with a lot of that
tie in that I was having. So, anyways, looking at all that, things being unclean are things that are related to death, are related to lacking in order, are more on the side of chaos. So when you're looking at those things being lacking, coming into the presence of a perfect and holy God is a. >> Chris: Dangerous thing, which, uh, another part of it is the restoration.
>> Muireadhach: Yes. >> Chris: You know, it's not just like, you go outside and you're, like, washing off whatever was on you or it's giving time for it to like leave your body, but it's more about like restoring you to come back into the community, to come back into the presence of God. Which is why this leprosy is, is different and why I think it was viewed different by a lot of people there because there was no restoration coming from this. You know, they were, they were
kicked out, they were banished. They were like exiled, removed from their families. They are removed from community. So not only is this a miserable disease because your appendages are falling off, but like mentally and emotionally, you're also miserable. You're, you know, you're living in suffering. I read this, I thought it was interesting. I got this, uh, from David Guzick's commentary. And he said doctor ab Macdonald, who was in charge of leper, a leper colony in uto utu,
maybe, uh, the leper is sick. He said this. The leper is sick in the mind as well as the body. For some reason, there's an attitude to leprosy, different from the attitude to any other disfiguring disease. It is associated with shame and horror and carries in some mysterious ways a sense of guilt. Shunned and despised. Frequently, do lepers consider taking their own lives? And some do. >> Muireadhach: Mhm. >> Chris: So like this. And you know, there's so
many rules with this, right? It was like the, if you see someone and you're a leper, you're like unclean. You know, you have to holler it out so they know not to come near you. So that then, which I want to. >> Muireadhach: Say, that's another story where there was like twelve lepers where they all kind of off in the distance shouting unclean. And Jesus has interactions with them as well. >> Chris: Yeah, I don't know if we'll cross that in Luke. >> Muireadhach: I want to say that's in Matthew.
>> Chris: But, yeah, then I know it's in one of them. So again, just to emphasize they're ostracized from society and they're not allowed to reenter it. Um, to me, this is why this one's looked at, like, different than that and why we're looking at sin and unclean. Like, what's the difference? Because they, the Israelites believed leprosy was a punishment from God. You have, uh, King Uzziah in two
chronicles who was like, did really good. And then as he got older, became prideful and like God was like struck down with leprosy. And he lived out the rest of his life isolated and alone as a king, uh, with leprosy. So you know, that's a punishment within it. >> Muireadhach: Yeah. And it's really interesting as things get built up. And again, it, I can see how it could happen just if you're looking culturally at stuff to where when you're having these views again of like coming
into the presence of God and then you can't. And then it's just like, well, if you can't come to the temple and you're sinning, like when it actually comes to sin and stuff, like, how is all of that functioning? And then even if you're looking at, well, like, yeah, well, how come you have this death disease on you? Like, how come death is creeping in on you early? >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: And you see that throughout Jesus life, even when it comes to blindness.
Right. Um, that dude that was born blind and Jesus goes in. Yeah. Who sinned? This guy or his parents? And he's like, that's not anything to do with what this is. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: So, yeah. When you look at kind of the. >> Chris: Perspective of the cultural people who were. >> Muireadhach: Suffering from ailments, is that it was looked at as a punishment. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Like somewhere in your lineage someone screwed up. And this is what you get even today.
>> Chris: Like the comparison to leprosy in it. Like, um, I read ha. Ironsides, uh, commentary. And his was like, basically he says this, uh, isn't it just like sin? And yet so often it seems to be such a little thing to begin with, some habit which one knows is not right, so insignificant. And it grows and grows until, uh, at last sin is manifested in all its terrible corruption. A little sin leads to something worse and increases until it's emphasized in the whole life and spiritually form of
leprosy. So even modern day today, there is that comparison to like sin and leprosy based off of like what it does to the body. >> Muireadhach: Yeah. >> Chris: Um, and looking at the culture, like you're talking about the culture, like the Pharisees back then would have that same idea, you know, in the first century, uh, if we go back to, I think it's deuteronomy 28, where God was like, if you do all these things,
blessings, blessings, blessings. But if you don't, then here's the curses, sickness, disease will be among us people. So, you know, they really thought this way. Even the rabbis would like, they were despised. Leprosies. >> Muireadhach: Yeah. And you look around at, especially in pharisees, right? Because they're looking at, we're still under oppression. So like we're still under exile, so to speak. And they're looking at these symptoms. Mhm. Of like what sin and
disobedience looks like. And pharisees were like, hey, we want to follow God's law so that we can get out of this to where, like, you know, a lot of times we kind of crap on pharisees, but it's just like, they're kind of doing what a lot of, like, christians want to do. Like, guys, can we get back to it? Like, look at the state of the country. Can we take this thing seriously? So it's like, I can get where they're coming from. And even so. Yeah, like, I don't know. Um, was
Covid a judgment from God, right? There's a lot of people that look at those types. They're just like, hey, look at how much sin has been, not only in this country. Like, you know, uh, people still look at things in those ways. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: Um, um. But it's such a sad thing how you were saying even on the. For modern people who are suffering through this, the amount of, like, depression or, you know, taking their own lives and getting to that.
Because, like, isolation, like, think about it. You get sent to prison. What's the prison within prison? >> Chris: Isolation. >> Muireadhach: Isolation. Isolation. To lose contact with people. But then, like, even if you have, like, a, uh, colony of lepers, which, you know, that kind of is what happened, though. We're all unclean. Like, we need to survive together. But there's just something about being treated less than human. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: And it's just so horrible.
It's dehumanized. Like, you know, it's just like, such a. For people made in the image of God to see, like, how humans can treat other humans, it's like, it's so screwed up. And what we see here with Jesus, right. The man says, lord, if you're willing, you can make me clean. He's not doubting. He's not saying, like, I don't know if you could actually make me clean. He's saying, if you're actually willing. Like, if you'd actually look at
me and consider doing. I know that you could, but, like, do you even want to? >> Chris: Yeah. >> Muireadhach: That's where Jesus says, I am willing. And I think that's just so beautiful, you know, because the level of faith is just like, hey, if you're willing, you could do this. >> Chris: Right? Right. Yeah. >> Muireadhach: And to show that out of all of the Pharisees and
everything else of just, like, the treatment. And I get why, again, like, if it's contagious and everything else, like, I can understand. But that where we see that on the human side of things, the reason for all of this uncleanness is, yeah, if it's contagious or, oh, I've touched a dead body. The uncleanness always traveled in one direction. Like, the dead body has death. I've touched the dead body, the death came onto me. Like, that's how
uncleanness worked. But when it comes to Jesus, he touches the uncleanness. And the thing that was unclean gets made clean. >> Chris: Right? Yeah. >> Muireadhach: And we see that with leprosy here. So we have kind of those big three things. We've got like, um, leprosy, skin diseases. You've got corpses and you've got, um, bodily discharges. They're kind of the
main three uncleannesses. And what we'll see again, I'm not sure if it'll be fully, I think we should cover it through our journey that we're going on of discovering a savior, but that Jesus comes into contact with all three of those things.
M so I'll just put a couple of them out there. That way people are like, oh, I gotta wait till episode whatever, when I already forgot, uh, the woman who's suffering with the issue of blood, that she's been bleeding for twelve years, she just touches the hem of Jesus's garment and she's made clean. She's healed and made clean. Right. And Jesus, when he comes into contact with corpses, most famous would probably be Lazarus, right? Like he was dead, dead.
He was on like day four. And a dead body, a corpse is made alive again. >> Chris: Right. >> Muireadhach: So this is even that different view of what I was saying, like, the dangerous side of God and like his complete holiness and life givingness, is that now you have through Jesus, he's coming and he's touching these unclean things and making them clean. Like, it's, that's for me, when looking at, uh, discovering a savior, like, what is
this? Like, well, if we're going to look at taking the Old Testament seriously for all of the things that are in Leviticus and like, why it would get set up that way, then what we see with Jesus is a willingness to come in and like, be correcting those things. >> Chris: Right. Right. Let's put a pause on the episode right here and continue the rest of it next week. I'm Chris. >> Muireadhach: I'm, uh, Muireadhach >> Chris: We are your church friends. Thanks for listening.