1. Linda Evangelista

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, I'm Kirsty Young and this is Young Again, my podcast for BBC Radio 4. What conversations would you have with your younger self? How do you reflect on the big decisions you've made? What have you learned from your life so far? Well in this edition of Young Again, I'm in conversation.

With one of the great beauties of her age, her face has been her fortune. Indeed, Karl Lagerfeld described her as the Stradivarius of models. I was intrigued to meet her, but in truth I wasn't really sure what to expect. What would someone whose entire gilded career is built on the image of perfection have to say about hardship and struggles? Well, it turns out, quite a lot. I was left astounded by her candour.

and admiring of her resilience. In this episode of Young Again, I'm in conversation with Linda Evangelista. So as I understand it, you wanted to be a model from a very young age. From about 12? Yes. Why? I liked clothes before that. I don't know. I was obsessed with fashion and my Barbie dolls. I had two. And when I was in seventh or eighth grade, I went to my mother and I said, we have to talk. And I cried.

this sounds crazy but I told her I needed more clothes I needed more outfits that it was really important to me and she did she would buy me an outfit every couple of months you know a new blouse with a new skirt or and this is kind of small town Working class Canada. Yes. Yes. A lot of farming. It's the fruit belt, but also a lot of industry. And my father worked for General Motors. OK. Both your parents were Italian immigrant. Yes, both born in Italy. And I thought I was Italian.

Until I went to Italy, and then I thought, oh gosh, no, I'm Canadian. Okay. Compared to them. Okay. My grandmothers went to Italian church and shopped in the Italian supermarkets and watched Italian. programs on tv and but very canadian italian or american italian yeah and so i read you were 12 when you first thought i would like to be a model is that true well

I was tall and... How tall? At the time I was 5'8", now I'm 5'9 and a half. Okay. So age 12 you were 5'8"? Yeah, I grew really quickly. Wow. And my mother used to like to keep us in an extracurricular activity. I ice skated a bit, figure skated. She saw that there were ads in the newspaper for modeling school. So we went there and we got an interview and they said they would accept me.

But it was very expensive. The classes were very expensive. So you started out then young when you first of all went to Japan and then you went to Paris, is that right? I went to Japan when you were 16 or 17. And where are you taken care of? No, no, not at all. And I wanted to go by myself and my strict Italian parents let me. It's the craziest thing.

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. i don't know how i got to the agency then i got there and they wanted me to take my clothes off so they could take my measurements and i said but my measurements are on my card and they were asking me if you know, about doing nude photos. Wow. My head just started spinning and I wanted out. And you were 16. Yeah. So did you get out? Did you leave? Well, I'm... Somebody found me on the street trying to put coins into a phone booth.

He took me to his apartment to let me use his phone. And I called my mother and she said, get out of there now. And I found the Canadian embassy and they helped me out. And I went home. It sounds horrendous. It was and it was only like it was less than two days. But you had the smarts because you were self-reliant. You got out. I got out. And then back in Canada.

I was chosen at my modeling agency and they insisted I go in the Miss Teen Niagara pageant. I don't know what that had to do with modeling. No. There was a scout in the audience from Elite Model Management. There's a huge agency. And he gave me his card and he said, I'd like to take pictures of you. And I didn't love the idea. And after the Japan thing, I was freaked out. It wasn't until I graduated when my mother said, why don't you try modeling? Why don't we call this man and see?

So we did and he took my pictures and he sent them to New York and they were very interested in me. I bet they were. When you went to those early, do they call, is it a go-see? Did they used to call them go-sees? Well, first I went to meet Elite and the head of Elite, John Casablancas. And these are legendary figures in the modelling world. And he... he said yeah we'd love to take you on you should lose five pounds I mean I was so thin I bet

I guess not thin enough. At the time, I was working in a convenience store, so maybe I was drinking too much soda or something. I don't know. But what did you think inside when somebody says... Nothing. Nothing. I didn't know how to lose five pounds, though. What did you do? I had no clue. I didn't do anything. Okay. I thought maybe it's just something he said to everybody. That's what I think. Yeah. It's a kind of control thing. It's like you're almost good enough.

But we'll sort you out, or that's sort of what we're here for. I was just thrilled that they were taking me on as is, you know? And the goal was for me to build a portfolio. And I would go around to meet all these young photographers, and nobody wanted to do any pictures with me or test me. So they said I think you should try Paris. So they've shipped me and a couple other girls off to Paris.

And we had a blast together, but one got sent home after a week, the other got sent home after a month, and then I was there left alone. But I did start working there. doing catalogs, doing very low-end jobs, but I was making enough money to pay for rent and food. Okay. And did you feel... That that was success? Did you think? Yes, because I was working. You were making a living. So you were in your early 20s. You stayed in Paris and you were very young when you got married.

22, am I right, when you got married? I was 22. How come you got married at 22? Because I was an idiot. I mean, you know, that conversation happened with my parents. Of course, they try to talk me out of it. And I'm like, do you want to come to this wedding? Because, you know. It's happening with or without you. Okay, I was so certain that this Man loved me this charming charming lovely man. I was so certain

I was so certain of that and everything. And you know what, if you're going to ask, please ask me if I have any advice for young women or men. That's exactly what I'm going to ask you. Yeah, listen to your parents. You might think like you know everything. See, at that point, I was traveling a lot. I was independent. I was mature, but I was naive.

like drugs because there was cocaine everywhere I don't it was everywhere but I managed never to try when I first started oh this is a crazy story and I'm going to try and say it quickly but I was sent to Milan and it was a shooting at a house outside of Milan and there were lots of people there and lots of models and I forget what magazine it was for and then at night these parties would start and I remember seeing cocaine for the first time and

They counted us out, and on the coffee table, they drew 12 lines of Coke. And at the end, there's this line left over, and they said, who didn't do their line? And I said, yeah, who didn't do their line? Because it was me and I didn't want them to know it wasn't me. Okay.

oh my god it's scared it's just scared it is scared it scared me but there was one nice man there and he knew i was scared and i want i went to bed but there's no lock on the door and he he came and he's talking to me and he reassured me I was safe and he was kind as can be and his name was Francesco.

Two weeks later I'm back in Milan and when I'm leaving they detain me at the airport because there's this man who's been shot by a model and his name is Francesca and she was coked up. That's when I said I will never do cocaine. I'm so freaked out. Okay. And so you married a guy who's very well known in the fashion industry. He ran a big model agency, which is...

Absolutely nothing to do with you, but I'll mention it for listeners. He has subsequently been involved in that kind of fashion world, me too moment. And you've come out very clearly saying you think it is very brave of any woman who steps forward to... to say they've been abused in the industry. You yourself, how were you treated in the fashion industry? Did I have Me Too moments? Absolutely. I was in a Me Too marriage. Absolutely. Can you tell me more about that?

It was... I kept quiet for many, many years, and then The Guardian did a story on... All the models. Only when speaking to the journalists. Did I find this out? And to. think that I was married to him when all of this was happening is crazy horrifying and There's a side of me that thinks if I would have spoken up and said something about what was happening to me, that maybe they would have come forward at that time and the statute of limitations wouldn't have worn it.

run out I should give people context for this because it was very recently it was decreed by the courts in France that he would not face charges for the many allegations against him because of the statute of limitations and so what you're saying in that very short and what sounds to me very painful marriage is that you were on the receiving end of ill treatment. Correct. But you didn't, from my point of view, I'm saying this as a 54-year-old woman, you were a very young woman.

If somebody doesn't tell you what they're doing, it's very easy for them to conceal it, would be my point of view on that. I had no idea what was going on. All I knew was what was happening to me. Which was? abuse and I can only imagine why women don't speak up and that is fear and fear Equals silence. Silence equals fear. If you were able to gift yourself a conversation to the younger Linda who was only in her mid-twenties and was by this time incidentally soaring.

in her career and looked like a woman to the outside world, looked like a woman who had it all, what would you say to her? Sorry that I wasn't helpful to these other women but I didn't know. I think the idea that you were accountable for what was happening to other women is not a fair thing to put on yourself. I'm sure I'm not the first person who said that to you. I feel guilty now though. I get that.

Do you want a tissue? I've got tissues. You've been very, very vocal in your support of... Yeah, I believe them. Yeah. I believe them.

When I issued my statement, I had said, you know, based on his behavior, I believe them. Based on what I know, I believe them. During the marriage, I had heard... there's other women, they wear your clothes, they, and I thought, everybody's just so jealous of me you know and i'm like why would he cheat on me i'm i'm linda yeah you know and i'm making all this money and I cook and I'm such a great parent to his child and look at the houses I built us and look at

look at all i've done there's no way he would cheat on me you know and i was thinking cheating i wasn't thinking yeah the other well why would you think that and also that kind of slight dissonance, that sort of cognitive dissonance of this is the couple we are to the world. I mean, I was looking at those pictures just a couple of days ago when I was preparing for talking to you. You're on his arm and you are this golden...

perfect-looking couple. There he is, the soigné Frenchman in the perfectly cut suit, and there you are, this glittering jewel of a woman. But of course, what he was doing was nothing to do with you. It was entirely to do with his own relationship with himself. That is correct. That makes sense. And I know because of the years and years and years of therapy.

You know? When you got out, what did that feel like? I just felt free. I felt free. It was so liberating and I just thought a fresh new start. The one incredible thing that came out of that relationship was my stepdaughter, who I told her at the time, I'm leaving, but I'm not leaving you. And to this day... We're very close. And she gave me a grandchild. I'm like technically a grandmother. Me too. How old is your grandchild? She's five. That's a great thing, isn't it?

You're in a period of, I guess, kind of looking back because you're going through the archives of all the work that you did, the famous work, much of it very... pioneering, it's in this new book. So I'm guessing you had to spend days, if not weeks, looking back at your career, at the photographs, the ones that were, I mean, actually, they were world famous.

at the time i mean i remember them i'm very much of your generation what did it feel like to you to to go back and to examine those images it was actually fun and it was easy to do this book because it was with one photographer and we sort of had the same idea of which images to choose and it was fun we had a giggle going back and reminiscing about you know each of the shoots because back then there was no retouching and

What you saw was what you got. So people were holding reflectors to take care of, you know, under eye bags and we were pinned to death and the wind machines like were going somebody. was moving them and and we didn't know if we had the picture we would just do a certain amount of rolls of film we would do polaroids and then the photographer would find out after he developed them

And then he didn't retouch them. So it's a totally different process. I mean, it bears almost no relationship to photo shoots these days where people instantly see the image. You know it can be retouched. People say we'll take it out in post-production. We'll do all of that. I liked actually having to control every single...

element and making it more real. So you felt active in it? You felt like you were part of a creative process? I always spoke up and was part of it. I want to ask you a bit about your relationship with yourself and your beauty. Because when you are on every Vogue cover around the world, when you are revered as, you know, and, you know, people...

I find now that people misuse the word supermodel. There were only five. There were only five. If you come from our generation. We don't even know what a supermodel is. We still struggle to... understand what that term means. When it happened, and as somebody who went out and bought that famous Vogue cover with the five, as you became, known supermodels.

I'm very interested in your relationship with your physical self and how you, in those days of the absolute pomp when you were the superstar, did you look in the mirror and feel good? Did you feel beautiful? i don't know if i ever looked in the mirror and said i feel beautiful for me it was all broken down like the eyes the cheeks the lips the hair

So these were your assets. Yeah, it was broken down. It was, yeah, I don't, I just thought technically, genetically, you know, I had what I needed to succeed.

It's something though I talk about in my home with my child. So you have a son who's in his... Almost 17. 17, okay. And we discuss beauty all the time. And what do you say to him? Well, everybody's beautiful. Not just models. Everybody is. It's got nothing to do with, you know, your genetics. But when it pertains to me, I did things like, because we, I'm sorry.

Everyone I know goes to the dermatologist even my friends that aren't in the industry or go to the dermatologist And I did it because I was bombarded with the commercials on TV Do you want to look like yourself? Do you like what you see in them?

mirror and I'm like no I have a little something something here yeah and a little something hanging over my bra and so you so just to fill people in who don't know about it you went for this it's a non-invasive procedure you get totally non-invasive you can get

No downtime, no surgery, no bad side effects, nothing. And it went wrong. And you went public about it, which I thought was fascinating. It went horribly wrong. And if... somebody would have told me there's a very very very slim chance instead of the fat freezing and melting away and you eliminate it it's going to grow bigger and it's going to be rock hard, do you still want to do this, Linda? I think the answer would have been no. I wouldn't have risked my livelihood.

You've got on record as saying, you know, you didn't go out. I was alone because... When I first started Googling it, I wasn't finding anybody or anything. There was nothing to read about it. There was nothing out there. I didn't have someone I could call who experienced the same thing. And it wasn't me anymore. And then I had two liposuctions, which made it an invasive procedure. To try to correct the thing that had gone wrong. To try to correct it, but it didn't correct.

And so here I am having been put out with anesthesia. I mean, having to wear girdles for eight weeks. like head to toe girdles strapped under my chin not going out and then it not being successful i i just went into a downward spiral i was never going to have my body back

Okay. Never. And I still don't and I won't. And how are you with that now? I work at it when I'm in therapy and I'm... I just want, you know... to love myself and i'm working on it now if you talk to me about scars see i love scars because scars are trophies and i have plenty of those what are your favorite scars I guess my most recent breast cancer, bilateral mastectomy. I like those ones. I think it's very powerful when a woman who's known for her beauty, which is what...

you, Linda Evangelista, is known for is incredibly straightforward about going through something that, you know, I mean, breasts are revered. You know, Jean-Paul Gaultier built years of, I mean, the fashion industry. very much does, you know, fetishize and reveal the breast. I've never been myself even crazy about breasts. I find that they look cumbersome. I don't know. I love my new little tiny 180cc.

breasts that i never have to wear a bra so i'll never have the bra flap hanging out i can run and jump on my trampoline and they don't move so i'm delighted so here you are back in the limelight After quite a few years away, you emerged about a year, year and a half ago. How does that feel? It was just a brief moment appearance at the end of the Fendi show. There was such a nice reception from the audience. Like, they stood up, which I couldn't believe it. But I'm so grateful for my industry.

accepting me as I am they still want to dress me and they still want to work with me if you were to look back at the sort of span of your career of the things you've done of the things you've said Do you have any regrets for the things you're like, I would have done that differently? I wouldn't have said that. Are you talking about the $10,000 quote? Yeah, I am talking about it, which followed you around like a bad smell. It won't go away.

It's still there. It won't go away. Can I just say, when people think of you, I don't think that's what they think of. But you were the person who said it and it got a lot of bad publicity at the time. It really... did and the way I said it wasn't meant to come off the way it came off it was it was all wrong and if I could have taken it back at the time I would have but

It was another way of saying, I know my worth. There are a lot of celebrities, athletes, musicians. They show their wealth. They wear it. They flaunt it. I just said it. And I didn't say it to the excessive amount that they are saying it. But it didn't sound nice. And I regret it. I don't think if a famous footballer had said...

Well, you know, I don't get on the pitch for less and blah, blah, blah. That's just the way it is. People would have thought, well, clever you, clever old you. But I think a young, beautiful woman saying, well, you know, we don't get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day.

There was humour in that. There was honesty in that. And I think it stuck in a lot of people's throats because you were a young woman. I just don't want to be known for that. I don't think that's what you're known for. I don't want that to be my legacy. Okay, so obviously I'm sitting opposite somebody who is a legendary model who is known for, I mean, was it Karl Lagerfeld called you the Stradivarius of models? He did.

I think that's a very, I mean, it's a pithy phrase, but it's also incredibly insightful in terms of... you your presence that there is something kind of incredibly rarefied about the way you look you don't seem to me meeting you today at all like a rarefied person you seem entirely somebody with their feet on the ground

Do you think that look that nature has blessed you with, of slight apartness, has sometimes would put people off kind of coming towards you? Because, you know, you've looked in so many of the photographs in the book, you know, you look... Otherly. You look like the most beautiful alien from the planet Beauty that's landed among us. Wow. Know that those genes that...

genetic good fortune that allowed me to be in this business has also backfired on me. I have two genetic you know diseases the cancer and I have another one And so genes can work for you and they can work against you. And I remember having a conversation with someone and I said, you know, I've never had a cavity. And they were like... you're that genetically gifted that you've never had a cavity? And I said, oh, but my lungs are full of holes. But I mean, it's...

It's just ironic. Yeah, that is ironic. So it's a blessing and it's not because genetics have worked against me also. That is a really deep irony to live with. Okay. But as soon as I feel good, I come back and I go again. It's been so interesting to hear you speak so honestly. So I'm really delighted that you took the time. I'm very transparent. Yeah, you are. I'm very transparent. Maybe sometimes too much. I don't think so.

I don't think so. And I'm really nice to meet you. And so nice to meet you. Thank you. Join me next time on Young Again when I meet the Oscar winner, Daniel Kaluuya.

linda evangelista's ex-husband through his lawyers has said that allegations that he committed crimes against models in the 1980s and 90s are false and defamatory and that he is and will remain innocent In response to the allegations that his marriage to Linda Evangelista was abusive, they say he firmly objects to the defamatory and false allegations made against him, and that he refuses to participate in the dishonest media controversy.

Ping-pong can change the world. Yep, you heard me. Ping-pong. Table tennis. I'm Matthew Side, and in a special mini-series of my BBC Radio 4 show, Sideways... I tell the story of how this small game transformed China's national identity and its international standing. Listen to China's Ping Pong Power. part of the Sideways podcast on BBC Sounds.