The Power of Black Storytelling | Fellowship of the Griots

So 67 of the hashtag You Good Man Men's Wellness podcast, the first on the Black Media Nexus Network. Make sure you like, subscribe and comment wherever you're listening or watching this pod. So for those who are new to the pod, this is a space where identifying men have open and honest dialogue about our wellness. It's an opportunity for us to exhale. So I welcome you. It's been about five months since I've last recorded. Be real, I would tell you where I've been and what I've

been doing if I could remember. For all of us, it's been a bit of a blur as we navigate the madness in society. But the beautiful thing is that we've survived. And my hope for all of us is that we find moments to live, love, and be using healthy practices in the midst. And so for me, one of the practices that I've been using more of, and I'm gonna be real, I'm resisting the urge to shame myself and say that I need to do it more, but it's writing. It has been

a cathartic practice for me. One space that I've been to fairly recently is ceremonies, a space for those who identify as black men to convene, engage, write, and be free. In bringing back the pot, I knew exactly who I wanted to have as my first guest, and they are the facilitators of ceremonies housed under their fellowship of the Griot's organization, which centers the power of Black writers and our allies. These brothers are master storytellers, wordsmiths. Again, y

'all know me for being real. One has questionable hip hop and television takes at times, but ultimately they're all around. Good genuine dudes. We have ality farmer and Donnie Moreland jr. Welcome fellas. How y 'all feeling? Questionable I'm

just being real man questionable. You said that and I'm not mad at the wire take I'm not mad at the wire take for folk who think the wire is better than top boy We can agree to disagree there, but but some of your other takes man, they be I don't know what's happening I'm going to be honest. I don't know what's happening. I've never seen Top Boy, but there's no cultural influence. No memes running around of Top Boy, no gifts running around. The wire was a moment,

man. You missed that moment because you were still young. You missed that moment because now you're trying to catch up. That ain't even a thing, but thank you for having us. The man we're here to talk about, that's episode 102. Exactly. That's episode 100. But Donnie, have you seen Top Boy? I have not seen Top Boy. I've seen - What's up with y 'all, man? What's up with y 'all? I have a worst take. And I'll be honest. I haven't finished season one of The Wire. It

never captured my interest. And I hold that. I don't say that a lot, but - Clearly, because we see what happens. We see what happens. It's a brave space. Name just put out to everybody. I'm going to share this widely. I wanted to bring you on because you both are amazing, amazing storytellers. When I sit and listen to what you offer, for me, it penetrates deep into my spirit.

And I can't say I can't say I experienced that in my, when I'm engaging with television, when I'm engaging with your mainstream writers, it's something about the level of authenticity that you both offer in your writing. So first, I wanna start there. Like your journey as a writer, what has that been like in... How did you get to the place where you are now is just being phenomenal writers. So let's start with with you, Alative.

I see you putting the eyebrows up. Listen, brother, you don't got to have a publication, you know what I mean? In that way to be a phenomenal writer for me, man, because because this is this is about authenticity. This is about realness and connecting with with us. And so the way that you write both you and Donnie, it speaks to just this this love for. for us as black folk. First, thank you again, you know, tremendous gratitude

for the comments. For me, storytelling came as a kid to me as a kid, you know, my mother had me when she was 14. So I was raised as essentially as her youngest sibling while being, you know, the first grandchild to my grandmother. So my youngest aunt is five years older than me. So she's like my big sister. But still, I was the only little kid, right? So I spent a lot of time with myself. And that time, I spent a lot of time talking to myself. As I got older, I realized

I was telling stories, right? So I would take, you know, my hate men figures. and I would have

battles. I would take my baseball cards, my basketball cards, and I would have battles. I was doing fantasy sports way back in the mid -80s. I would take the cards and go into the papers and get the stats, and I would have my own little drafts, and I would put them together, and then I would play the game. So I was telling myself stories, and as I got older, I started reading really, really young. My mother likes to say I was two. the true that is, but the family runs with that

story. But I remember reading a newspaper to my grandfather because he didn't really know how to read well. And I know I was doing that before I ever went to school. Wow. And so that kind of translated into a love of words for me. So I would take my aunt's Judy Bloom books and Beverly Cleary and I would read those books and then I would just make up my own stories to go along with them. And then I started writing.

I remember in fifth grade we had an assignment to write a story, and I wrote the story about a kid who was riding down a highway. You know, you get the wind, and you let the wind blow your hand. I wrote a story about a kid getting his hand knocked off by a truck, and the hand coming back to haunt his family. And my class was like, yo, this is dope. And I kept writing all these other pieces to it. And I knew then, this is what I want to do. Now life plays out differently

than when I go to college. I majored in English. I'm an English teacher. I went and spent a week in my old middle school. I was like, I ain't doing this. I ended up working in higher ed at the same time. I started a blog. I'm writing that blog for years. I end up doing some other things online. But I had this full -time job. I don't have the time to write. And then finally, I fell ill in 2018. And, you know, for a little while I was looking like that was going to be

it for me. And all I kept thinking was on that book, that real book. So I ended up being out of work that year. And so I just started writing, started writing. The guy would schedule and put on my account what I'm going to work on. And I started developing the writing practice. And so that's what I've been working on really now for the last, you know, seven years, seven, eight years. met Donnie in one of those spaces. And for some reason, we just connected like there

were other brothers coming every week. But it was something about his work that attracted me to him. I was like, I need to get to know him better on the page and as a man. So we just connected. Thank you. Thank you for being vulnerable enough to share about. you know, what you've navigated family wise, what you've navigated health wise and how writing has been and seemingly an outlet

for you. Right. And so when we talk about men's mental health, men's wellness and finding these practices outside of the those stereotypical masculine outlets, the gym, those unhealthy vices, we seemingly found something to to help you not only process what's happening, but to articulate it to others, what it is that you've been feeling and what you've been experiencing throughout the course of your life. So again, I appreciate you sharing that. What about you, Donnie? What

has inspired you? What does that journey as a writer look like for you? Oh, man. I've been sitting here thinking about... that journey. I don't think I've ever thought about it in its entirety. I mean, I've always been artistically inclined. My mother introduced me to, you know, all of, I would say, my artistic interests. You know, she taught me how to draw. She taught me how to write. She taught me, you know, she introduced me, you know, a love for music and appreciation

for music, my earliest memories. are Benita Baker's Potiphar and the Rapture and, you know, David with Banks Take Five. It was my earliest memories. That's because she was keen on making sure I was exposed to as much art as possible growing up. I was most interested in, you know, drawing and visual arts up until I would say high school. You know. going into high school, I would, you know, I had faced some mental health challenges.

I'd been hospitalized when I was 13. And I needed an outlet that wasn't, you know, what I thought I had access to. And on the speech and debate team in high school, my classmate, the one that sat right next to me in that class was the author Brian Washington, or would be the author Brian

Washington. And I remember he he was getting published then and it inspired me to like sit down and you know and write and I found a calling I think for poetry then just you know watching him and seeing you know how fulfilling it was for him to not just be published but to have that outlet. And so I found a website, it's called Ghetto Soul Poetry. It's no longer around. Neither are all those poems I wrote back then. But that's

how I got into it. And then by the end of high school... going to college I had like a terrible poetry night freshman year in college like just an atrocious like everyone's just looking at me like we don't understand a word you just said brother like it's I say you know what I am I am done with this it was one of those poetry nights was just like I can't come back here um so I put the pen down and I focus on other things and like, you know, I still wrote like I was

writing, I was writing textbook chapters, you know, throughout college and, you know, you know, I was here and there extricately. But I didn't write creatively, that's why I'm putting that down. So it wasn't really until after college that I picked up, you know, creative writing

again. That's only because Josie Pickens, the cultural educator out here in Houston, she encouraged me to submit one of my essays that I had written for a blog post for an organization that I had called LAB, Love with Cheating Brotherhood, out here in Houston. This was like 2016, 2017. I wrote a blog post, she saw it, she was like, hey, you need to submit this to Black Youth Project. And it didn't go in one way or the other. I just was like, I'm not a writer. I can write academically.

I was working on my master's in film studies at the time. But I'm not a writer, not like that. And by that time, my love had become film. Like I said, I was working on a master's degree in

film studies. Filmmaking was my track. And I couldn't be moved from that. So I think to the extent that I would write creatively was just scripts, but I never thought about it as creative writing. It's like the means to an end in my storytelling. But then I moved to Minnesota, you know, in like 2017, 2018. And, you know, we do things when young, dumb, and in love. So I moved to Minnesota. I put down all of my dreams and, you know, needed a job while I was up there.

And I remember, you know, Josie saying, submit this to Black Youth Project. So I sat down with the piece and I, you know, trimmed it up and got in shape and I sent it off. And then they published that. And then I sent some stuff off to Gathering of the Tribes. And, you know, I think one of my proudest moments as a writer is, I mean, it's a bit morbid, but one of my pieces, like the last piece that Steve Cannon

published before he passed. And so, you know, at that point I was like, maybe I can do this. So I kept, you know, writing. When he got pregnant, at that point I'm like, okay, I need to really step it up. And I began working in social service, but realized on the back end I could write to make money. But as I was doing it, I began to,

you know, feel a bit impassioned by it. It began to become more of a creative outlet that, you know, filmmaking wasn't, because I hadn't picked up a camera in a while, but I was able to express myself through essaying in ways that I just couldn't through a script. And so I stuck with it, you know, throughout the course of the pregnancy

and then going into COVID. I really amped up, you know, the work because I think like a lot of us, you know, I was I was on 10 in terms of like my political kind of motivations and you know that that that emotional intensity putting into that that those um the it was that political commentary yeah and so just just doing a lot of writing and then you know due to you know kind of circumstances outside of my control um I ended up having to move back to Houston you

know as a single uh as a single parent and um At that point, everything kind of shifted, like Rae Spader, they changed management and, I'm sorry, Blackie Project changed management, Rae Spader had closed up shop, Gatlinger Tribes, you know, they weren't accepting anything, they were going through their own managerial changes. Like all the channels that I had to submit to, you know, it kind of closed up. So I was back in Texas, you know. It's kind of like submitting

things out. It's not getting any feedback and I was okay I don't know if this is gonna It's gonna work and I at that time I had published some short stories I'm just kind of experimenting and seeing if I could and I was okay I can't you know, and I got some stuff out there like you project to the fiction writing But even that I was like, okay that ain't I'm not gonna You know, I can't compete with the big dogs and essaying, you know, I can't get anything published So I

was about ready to hang it up But that's when, you know, I saw Hoover, who was, you know, at the time, I think, creative director, I want to say, at New York Writers Coalition, and he posted my brother to brother, the workshop that I was even not met at. And it was like the first home I had, you know, as a writer, like I had attended workshops, New York Writers Coalition workshops prior, and a few others, but then I

had a home, and now I had a home. with, you know, other black, male -identified folks who you just wanted to fellowship around words. And you think similarly, Fatif, like, meeting him, and even though we didn't, like, talk and communicate, his storytelling and things he wrote about, for me, was like, I'm gonna stay here, of course, for the brothers, but for him, because, like, we speak a similar language, and I need to get to know this cat. And then, you know, but I still

wasn't looking at writing. It's kind of like a profession. It was like, I'm in social service. This is just something I do at this point as a hobby. I wasn't making any money from it anymore. But, you know, during a break, it's when, you know, the brother, you know, kind of seasonal break, and you know, TV hit me up and said, hey, let's keep writing. And, you know, that's kind of the origins of fellowship with Rios, but also you know, us doing that thing, it gave me a drive

again to find my voice. Everything we've done is like opened up access for me to make the writing is like, oh wait, no, this is what we do. So yeah, long story short, that's, that's, you know, that's how I came to the pin, you know, four times. It's interesting, you know, when I hear the parallels between you and Al Latif, just how this variety, this process of writing started

fairly young. And I juxtapose that with my experience with writing, where and I want to say a lot of a lot of children, ultimately, right, especially in these failing public schools, where this free writing isn't a thing, right? Everything is about the test, the test, the test, right? These state exams that they're all taking. And so there's opportunity to explore, much like artists, right? Where it's just like, if you're, you know, coloring,

right? I have a friend of mine who, usually I have it in the background, but I have books right here. A friend of mine, he's a phenomenal writer, Justin Wellington. called the the blind artist. He has one eye. And so he used to love drawing when he was younger. Right. And ultimately he ended up stopping because he has some family tragedies and he and he picked it back up in his mid 20s. All of us. Right. I have a I have a three year old son. He loves coloring. Right.

He loves drawing. But if he's not the next amazing painter, Then we typically stop right and so we find kids who are amazing Storytellers when you sit and just listen to them tell stories about different things or they may write write about fantasy and things like that if if they're not Elites quote -unquote elite in that way, then it's just Larry. You got to hang this up You got to go find something else to do that the creativity of the youth is Stunted within

the public school system Right. Especially when we're talking about black and brown boys. And so I just find it interesting that this is something that you picked up early. I don't think I literally picked up writing just to write until I had my little incarceration stint. You know, when I was at at a university that I won't name. Right. I needed something to do to pass the time for those those little 48 hours because it got real. And so I'm just amazed at how you pick this up

early, right? You recognize it to be something that was important to you. And even if you might've gotten away from it throughout the course of, you know, life -lifing, you still found your way back. And so I guess my question is, how vital is and was the practice of writing for your development? as a Black boy who would then transition into being Black men? I think the fortune of being a few years younger than the two of you. So grew up in a time in school where

things were a little bit different, right? Where it wasn't all about the test. I grew up in gifted and talented programs where our gifts were kind of the reason we were there. And so we had the time to kind of hone those things. Like if you were a science and math kid, you went into spaces to work on those things. You know, I was an English and history good kid, so I can go into spaces and do those things and do research papers, all

kinds of things. So I was given the space to create one page because It was the California achievement test for us then. That wasn't a concern for me, right? I did it first, second grade. I'm testing sixth grade level. So our class doesn't have to worry about those tests. So we were given the space to do things much differently, right? By the time I get to the middle school, they're starting to cut those programs out of the city.

I grew up in New York, Jersey, and they're just putting kids all in the same class together so while you have those who are advanced now they're in classes with students who are two or three grade levels below and so you have these young really a lot especially a lot of boys black boys who now are being stifled in the classroom because they aren't allowed to express themselves academically or creatively because the teachers are not even focused on them. You're going to be okay, let

me go over here. And you're just kind of just sitting there, like not being challenged at all, which means that you're not being stimulated, right? Which means that now you're just kind of going through the motions and aren't given the opportunity to say, all right, I need assignments, I need topics and books and things that are going to challenge me, which allows me to think on

a different level. which allows me to now be creative and oh I like to write so now I can write poetry right my poetry starts to grow a little bit because oh I'm introduced to Langston Hughes now right I'm not just reading this textbook I'm reading Hughes I'm reading Claude McKay these were the things that we were doing in fourth and fifth grade and you know we're breaking down you know how life for me ain't been no crystal stair. And so it was giving us a higher level

of thinking. It was giving us a higher level of thinking, which allowed me to go home and work on things. Like, I'm mimicking the poems. Around the same time, you know, Eric B and Rakim are out. And, you know, I'm listening to Rakim, the way he's doing with words, and Big Daddy Kane, and Karis Wan, and Chuck D. Oh, I can do this too. So I'm writing raps. I'm writing stories, you know. And then I'm going to school with them. you know, doing research papers and things like

that. And so my creativity was stimulated in the classroom. And it allowed me to say, oh, I can do this thing too and all these other things. And I'm learning history because we had after school programs that, you know, we've learned Swahili, all kinds of things. And so I'm able to incorporate all of that into my storytelling as a kid. And those are the same found those. That's the foundation of the stories that I write down. Like a lot of those characters are coming

back. Like we had a brother that had a school program named Baba Saleed. He came in, he taught us martial arts, he taught us discipline, he took us into classes, taught us history. And so he's a person that I see when I'm writing stories. So he's like that elderly figure who comes back. And so that's how I learned. how to tell stories, how to be a storyteller, and that's the foundation that I've carried with

me. I've never stopped writing. I mean, didn't take it seriously for a couple years, you know, my mid -20s. I was getting some money, I was working, so, you know, under the strip clubs, chilling. But what I started doing was actually writing an email to my friends the next morning, like, detailing what we were doing the night before, like, things that happened, my crazy things. And then that became, oh, I just started

riffing on what was happening in the world. And people started forwarding my emails to their friends. And people are emailing me like, yeah, I want to be on the mailing list. I'm like, what mailing list? I send this to eight people. Next thing I know, I'm sending it to 120 every day. Next thing I know, hotmail is like you're over your limit. I was like, oh, let me go create a blog. And so it was always happening. It just looked different. You know what I'm saying? Yeah,

I'm glad you brought that up. And I'm glad you infused hip hop into this. Because then that had me circling back. Because as I posed the question, I talked about this formal setting of being in the schools. And so when I'm taking a step back, so many black and brown boys have written raps. We don't even necessarily in me, right? It could slip our minds that, yo, this is writing. This is storytelling. I can't stand

drill rat. Right. As you know, I can't stand it is extremely violent, but they're telling a story from start to finish in a way that makes

sense for them. Right. And the prose that's authentic to them. And so, yeah, I, you know, it has me again, reflecting. on how even my idea of acceptable writing is shaped, right? Because you have these young brothers out here, they're writing. Now ultimately, when we talk about that, how healthy is it? Right now, we can have a conversation about that. But ultimately, this is a form of writing. This is a form of expression, even if, you know, somebody old like me is undesirable.

So I find it undesirable. So I appreciate you for bringing that up in the influence that hip hop has had in in your understanding and your practice of writing. So how about you, Donny? What has how has writing aided in your development transitioning from a black boy into a black man? Well, no, that's an interesting question, I think, because, um, you know, as Alative indicated, I grew up in a different era. We're in like school, especially me. By the time I moved to Texas,

I had moved like six or seven times. And then while in Texas, you know, I moved from Baytown. to Katie and neither one of those schools had like cultural competency initiative so you know they weren't worried about the black kids in the classes you know what were you learning you know the influence of the material on our education and cultural diversity development so I kind of had to like pick pick and choose okay or more so like I had to make those breadcrumbs a feast.

So like by the time I got to like 10th grade when we was running in Hurston, which like the only book we read for a Black author, 10th grade, like this was one of the greatest books ever. I still have that copy. Because it was like the first time someone was speaking the language of my grandmother's like in school, you know. But it was like that, it was like picking your,

you're doing your best. For me, like, I think subconsciously, I do my best to find myself in those small pockets that were allowed, you know, a glimpse into who we were through curriculum. There was like one creative writing course I ever took in high school. It was like, I think it was sophomore year, maybe, sophomore, junior year. And it was like the first time, like, an educator had affirmed my intellectual product, like, I can't remember her name. I don't remember

the class. I don't remember what I wrote, but I do remember her, you know, keeping me up after class and saying like, this is really, really good. Like, please keep it this. And it didn't happen after that in high school. It didn't happen before that. It was like that isolated moment. So for me, in terms of like writers and writing, my kid is having a blast over there. Watch this

boy in five square pants. For me, in terms of writing, It's funny, like bringing up hip hop is important because like that, even though I didn't write raps, if you hear my work, you know, this is an eternal musicality that comes from the amount of hip hop that I consumed growing up. For better or worse, like I had memorized all of Snoop Dogg's first album, like all of Def certificate, I memorized all of Pac's work. going into high school and just like, and then

I grew up in the internet era. So we had, you know, YouTube and who was Napster. So I'm just consuming all of this hip hop from around the world. That was a big hip hop cat. Like, you know, and so he just kept albums out. Got to listen to them all. And then, like, I went to go seek that out because the stories that were being told, you know, like Scarface is my favorite MC just because of his storytelling proficiency.

And like it taught me that like, I think subconsciously taught me, oh wait, my words are a vehicle, kind of like out of my shame, like out of my depression,

like my words can be that. And so for me, you know, it was like everything outside of school, observing, consuming, you know, the craft from others that by the time like I began to take poetry like seriously, like outside of this being something extracurricular, like I had the toolkit because I had been consuming so much hip hop from so many places, you know, so many lyrics, so many stories, so many perspectives, so many, you know, political identities and whatever have

you, I've been sharing so much that I was, I was prepared. Word, word. Now, listen, I appreciate, I appreciate both your, you know, both your stories. It resonates, right? Your, your journey, it resonates, you know, with me and thinking about, again, the influence of of hip hop, the the challenges that we navigate as black boys and black men to to even get to the point where we are today. Right. And still have a practice that is meaningful, that remains circling back, I said, you know.

I first remember like creative writing when during my little stint at 19 for 48 hours in jail, but then I had when you brought up allot if you brought up likes to use I had to go back to ninth grade and Listening to get hip -hop influence listening to alias four -page letter and it was this sister I was digging her and I was like, all right, what can I do? I went and got This I went to the library. I got Paul Lawrence Dunbar's poetry. I took something and copied it word for word.

You know what I'm saying? So I had about five, six pages. I gave it to the homie Jameer Rittenberg. I said, yo, get this to her because they ride the same cheese bus. You gave it to her. I hear from her, you know, he was still we went to school. We graduated. I was a little salty. You know, she ended up being like a close friend for like a few years when we would go to like different poetry events. And she was like, yeah, I got this letter. I got the letter that you got. It

was it was nice. It was sweet. We laughed about it. She was like, yo, you know what she was navigating during that time. Right. And again, we get so stuck oneself. All right, and what we're feeling, what we're experiencing, we'll forget that others are experiencing life as well. So yeah, that was my first foray into the - Work that shit out on your own, but hit me back. Word, word. So you both brought up the origins of Fellowship of the Griots, where you two met at, I believe

it was Brother to Brother. So you met at brother to brother. So what was it about that experience and about one another where you're like, listen, we need to create something. And I want to create this for you. I know you said you're both fond of one another's work, but what is it that you noticed as far as was it any any gaps in the literary world when it comes to black folk in spaces and community for us to convene? Like, what was truly the inspiration behind the creation,

the creation of Fellowship of the Griots? I could tackle that first. So, I mean, I think everything has been fairly organic. Um, you know, it started out as, you know, just an option for us to write on Saturdays. Uh, that was the initial sort of ask, you know, LTP texting me. I was outside of it. I think it was Pizza Hut. Kind of the play and how rent was going to get paid. And then I get this text and was like, Hey, brother, let's keep writing. I was like, let's do it.

We had three writers, myself, Tief, and another writer out of Houston. And then, you know, he began to invite folks from his writing cohorts, the folks that I knew began to come and all of a sudden we had this community that just was growing. And by the time we decided to move forward

with an event, which is called Communion. which is a public reading opportunity for artists in our spaces, we realized like, wait a minute, you know, actually it was the advice of another member of ours is like, hey, y 'all have more than just a workshop. Like you have other offerings, like this could be more than that. And so by the time we said and realized that was what they

needed to. we need to consider ourselves as an organization, you know, beyond just this individual workshop at the time, not as weekend words, still weekend words, but we needed a banner. And so we, you know, just surveyed the community, different title ideas or different, yeah, different banner, title ideas, and the word fellowship came, coming back, we all kept coming back with a fellowship degree of ours. What was the other name? And then we found out somebody else. Oh, man. It

was like that was gathering. Gathering of the griot. Yeah, they had like, you know, I've never I've never missed out on them. But, you know, we wanted to be respectful of another black space. I'm not going. Yeah. You know, you know, colonize the joint. Right. No. So it's like, let's, you know, we could be creative and come up with something else. So, you know, with fellowship, the griot

is never. every program from ceremonies to you know a place to put the period and communion and even wicked words is a response to as you mentioned like gaps that can be filled and less so about craft more so about community like what do we need from one another in the spaces that we inhabit So that's what we think about first, who's in our spaces, and what do they need, and there we build out, you know, our programming.

But everything has been organic, it's been a response to community, like listening to the needs of those who are in the space, and our needs as writers too, but, you know, being attentive and aware of who comes in our spaces, and, you know, what we can, you know, offer them. How about you, Alati? Initially, it was Just a response to my own selfish needs, right? Danny and I found ourselves in a Saturday space that lasted an hour. But it left a lot to be desired about what

it could look like and what it could be. And so I said, yo, let's try this. And then as we've continued to grow and more people have entered the space and tell us how important it is, not just for their writing lives, in many cases, for their lives. It's like, yo, we got something here. And for me, of course, my day job, mobile access, right? Access. And so I was like, we

have something here. And we have the ability to provide people with access to things that they don't get normally, or things that may cost, right? I went to three or four retreats last year. I probably spent $20 ,000. that people cannot do that. Yeah. And so, we can provide them with those same type of experiences for free or at a minimum cost. We're doing a great

thing. And then, you know, I've been fortunate enough to to to those folks and you know, who I love and who love me and we can provide them

access to to craft talks and you know, and other

type of events. at no cost and it's like what we're doing is we're providing access to a community of people who love to tell stories who love to tell their story right their own narrative and we're doing it in an affirming loving space each of our spaces follows the same the same theory affirmation right affirmation only and that doesn't wonder to you because you go into the MFH or you go into you know some of these workshops and fellowships and retreats and your work is

knocked down and it almost makes you feel like I don't want to do this shit anymore but to find a space where people look like you talk like you come from place you come from or may may look like you in different type of spaces and they tell you yo I love this line right here this was dope I saw myself that does wonders for you as a writer. And so any gap we're filling is really in the soul. Sit with that for a second. Nah, legitimately. And I can attest to that,

right? Yeah, I was on... I was on, I guess when folk hear this, it will now be about two weeks, two or three weeks. We had Casey Layman on on ceremonies and we didn't get an opportunity to share just based off some time constraints. But what I wrote was something regarding my daughter. The prompt was about a daily practice. And I wrote about. a practice that I have with my daughter where now I kiss her on the head, right? She does it as I say, hey, give me a kiss. She's

older now. She's a teenager. She's 16. So she'll put her head out. And for me, she's been doing that now for about five or six years. And that's a practice that is is so meaningful to me. But I was able to truly explore. why that was meaningful to me. I was able to sit in and reflect on it being, you know, partially about her transition from a from a young child to a to a young woman and her having body autonomy and various things. Right. And so it helped me understand that. And

for me, it was it was soothing. To to my spirit to where I used to get frustrated where it's just like No, but like I saw her today, right? She's sick. I'm still gonna kiss you on your head. I'll kiss the flu But it's just like now this is our thing You know, this is our thing and it probably be our thing until you know, I transition, right? But I bring that up just to how it does speak to to the spirit and the work that you both Are doing in the space that

that you provide? And how affirming it can be and with that being said And you both have alluded to it, but how how? important is storytelling to understanding one's mental health, understanding one's identity for those who subscribe to masculinity, specifically just being a pod for anybody who identify as being a man to masculinity, which I just look at being a full human being. How does storytelling offer insight into these areas from your perspective? I think authentic storytelling

is the key, right? Because we can tell ourselves all kinds of stories. Like, man, I was out and I was killing. You know, they was all loving me and this, that. Third, I was okay. The real thing is I was miserable and I was, you know, and I was losing my money. Like, you know, you can tell yourselves different types of stories. So being able to tell yourself your own story authentically, really does a lot to centering who you are, right? And help you identify where

your gaps are, where your strengths are. Where are the ways I can grow? Who's my real friends? Who can support me? Because when I was down, this person held me up, right? And so I think learning to tell your authentic story is the optimum importance. How about you, Don? I think I'll second that. I think the thing about writing as a practice is that it's just one of the most isolated artistic practices one could undertake.

In that, I think there is a power to, and this is of course coming off of us talking about the importance of community, but even in community, when you're on that page, whether you're sitting at your laptop or, you know, notepad or, you know, whatever have you, it's you and you. And only, you know, if you're telling the truth.

There are plenty of people, I talk about this all the time, like there's plenty of times I come to the page masked up, like, and I'm talented enough to get by, but I also know how that feels. Like I didn't, I didn't commit. And I've called myself out on that, on the page. So yeah, it's a thing where like, you know, you can lie to me, but you can't lie to yourself. Even when you think you're doing the best job at it, like

you can't lie to yourself. The body knows and ultimately does the body know depending on, because it's all synergistic flow in my opinion. So yeah, just authenticity. The enemy of masculinity, authenticity. And storytelling is also a record, right? And so it's a record of a life lead, of a moment that you had, of a legacy that you're trying to build. So you're also not just telling the story for here and now, but you're telling that story for posterity. And so it's identifying

who you want to be remembered as. When I go and people speak of me, they're going to tell you who I was to them. And all those stories will come together. And it will build my legacy. That's also what storytelling does. And I think people consider it for the moment. But it is really a record, because if we weren't telling stories, how would we know where we come from? If the original grills weren't telling the stories, how would we have held on to our heritage and

our culture? How would we have known how to get by, how to get over? So my final question is regarding just like practical strategies and tools for folk who want to use storytelling. or use the narrative as a therapeutic or empowerment

tool. So as a therapist, especially working with brothers who are navigating their father wound, something I always recommend is for them to write their father a letter, whether their father is alive, whether their father has transitioned, whether you send it or not, that's completely up to you, whether you give it to them, whether you burn it, no matter what you do, right? but to get out these thoughts, feelings, and emotions

regarding this relationship. So what practical strategies can you both offer with regards to using narrative as a therapeutic or empowerment tool for brothers? You say it right in the name, right? It's an approach that you all use, narrative therapy, right? Yeah. you know, using that to

tell a story to help you navigate your traumas, your, your, you know, some of your shortcomings, some of your anxieties, you know, journaling. Back in, you know, Ghostface's first album came out, man, you know, Cappadonna said, every evening, I have a by myself meeting. Right? Took it as, and I heard it, I was like, that's dope shit. But he took, he was spending time with himself. I tell guys, oh, you know what? I could journal. That's what I by myself mean. I could journal.

And so therapeutically, it gets it out. And it can look different ways. It can look like you get home and you get in your driveway. You take that five to seven minutes to decompress and get all the shit out of you. Same way you wipe your feet before you walk in the house. You kind of get that out. And it gives you a chance to process today. If you need to get mad at yourself or something for two minutes, do that. And then

you move on, move forward. And so to me, the strategy is learning how to tell the story of the challenges of that with a professional. I'm married to a therapist by trade. I know the things that she works with people, you know, and I'm able to, fortunately for myself, I've been able to keep, you know, stay on the positive side of my mental health. But I also know some tools and tips that I can use if necessary. Like, I know when I'm too angry, but I run off of anger

for the most part. But I know when it gets too much. I know at that point I need to sit down, take a break, I'll go book a trip, I'll go to

the movies, you know. those types of things for you know go to the movies more practical than booking a trip but you know but i journal i go sit and listen to music i listen to stevie wonder like stevie brings me into a space where i can be into the music because in many cases he's going to speak to me right yeah and his other artists do the same thing you know to find what it is for you that that brings you into you know

that center What about you, Don? Um, yeah, I mean, anything I say here, this is coming from the ideal, because there's certainly no deficits in my in my practice, I need a journal more. But for me, it's reading, right? Like, it's, it's reading with the intention to learn about what's possible in narrative. finding books, and a lot of brothers, you know, brothers read, they say, what are you reading? Are you reading

fiction? Are you reading poetry? Or if you're reading nonfiction, what kind of nonfiction is

it? They branch outside of just, you know, the laws of power and, you know, books of the 40 laws of power and books that kind of center, you know, financial literacy or, you know, kind of like... focus on protecting the masculine ideal identity and branch out in the books that to do with, you know, the interior and, you know, like I said, the father wound and, you know, managing one's anger or managing one's emotional life relationships beyond just kind of the superficial.

I mean, for me, it was it was Chris Abani's dog woman that taught me if any book taught me how to write poetry is Chris Abani's dog woman. So much so that I got a tattoo on my arm, like, the cover. And it's because, like, I learned what it means to go deep reading that book. I mean, you have, you know, canceling is heavy behind you, right? We've had them on twice. If anyone in memoir, in our fiction, teaches you

how to go deep, it's gonna be him, right? But, like, seeking literature with the intention of learning what's possible in narrative and not

emulating that. but considering like okay what techniques are they doing to tap into you know the power of that sentence like the power of that paragraph and then what does that mean for you as the writer right how what does that mean for you and your practice as a writer and how can you take that to the page um so i think reading for me is as much as important as a practice um in that respect Damn, I skipped right over reading, Mike. I don't run a bath and take a

book with me. I gotta say, it's the ideal. It's the ideal. Yeah, yeah. Word, word. So with that being said, I want to shift gears, add some levity to the pod. Um, even though again, there's no trust me. There's nothing wrong with us being deep, especially as brothers That's the whole purpose of all of this, but I do want to add some a little bit of levity to this So I want you both, you know, I wasn't I was about to send you the question, but I was like nah Nah, i'm

not going to do it. I want you all to give me your top four writers That have inspired you Top four writers see cuz cuz five, right? That number five is just like four and five are usually like interchangeable. You know what I mean? So I wanted to make it a little a little tough Who are your top four writers that have inspired you? And so we're gonna we're gonna start with you we will start with you Donnie cuz you look like you you going through it right now like

That's tough. I mean, one is like... And before you go, for your number one, say just a little... Oh, we got a rank? Yeah. Well, no, no, no. We're not for rank, because that's going to be tough, right? That's going to be tough. But no, for one of them, just give a little bit of reasoning as to why. All right. One of them is super recent. I mean, as in the last two years, but it's had such an impression on me. I can't not talk about George Jackson. specifically blood in my eye.

I got Throes. I mean, I mentioned, you know, the eyes of watching God. That is such an impression on me in just terms of like what books can be, what writers can do. Oh man, it's too, that is tough. I'll go with, I'll go with Chris Ibani. I mean, I don't think. I mean, poetry is subjective, you know, in terms of appreciating some love, but for me, I just don't think there's a more technically sound and proficient poet, you know, for me, for the kind of poetry I like. And then

there's gonna be Baldwin. I mean, that's the goat, that's the god, that's the chief, that's everything. You know, the minute I read Another Country, I knew then, I was like, it don't... It's this. It's this. We'll go with those four. All right, all right. You ain't struggled with the four. You ain't struggled with the four. What about you, Alla T? So my four will look a little different. Behind me, there's an entire shelf of Walter Mosley books. So I'll go with

Mosley. I will go with Donald Goins. When I was about 16 or 17, I would go to the Barnes and Noble or Borders each time I got my hands on money and I'd buy one or two books. And I started with the two of them because they really taught me that it was okay to write about Black life, right? And not just a way where it was pretty and also not stereotypical, but authentic, right?

It would be easy to say Baldwin, of course, there's a huge portrait of Baldwin behind me, but Donnie already used that one, so I'm not gonna say Baldwin.

Judy Blume, of course. Yeah, because as a kid coming up reading her stories, writing about kids, it was really important for me to, I didn't see myself in the stories, but I was able to see children. having these very outlandish experiences. Yeah. Um and so we'll go there and contemporary. I'll throw some contemporary in there. It's easy to say, but I'll say Jasmine Ward. Okay. Jasmine Ward. Uh huh. Like her storytelling is otherworldly.

You don't just come out and win national book awards like in the at the rate she has and not be the dopest living writer that's out there right so once again uh more authentic depictions of black life you know black southern life i have a very different experience and lens but yeah i would go with those for balloon moseley goings and work word word that's dope i'm not gonna give four I'm not gonna do that. So I'm glad y 'all, because y 'all actually named two

people in mine. So Jesmyn Ward just started reading her. And Baldwin, of course, he's a phenomenal brother. I think that was really like my foray into reading. We talk about the importance within the practice of writing is reading. For me, I really started reading It's 2025, maybe about 2018, 2017 when I started going to Uncle Bobby's and folk are like, Phil, you got all these degrees. And I'm like, listen, I can I can write for academia.

That's you know, that's nothing that didn't require me really to read, you know, or if I did read, I'm not reading full chapters. I'm not, you know, I'm able to do enough to get past. And so for me, once I really got into reading, I noticed the quality of my writing. it got better. I noticed the quality of my life got better, right? And just in this practice of reading and writing. So that's dope. That's dope. That's huge, right? Reading. Yeah. And I'm glad Donnie spoke on it

earlier. He's like, yeah, it can't just be reading the 48 miles of power. All right, what is it? Think rich, think rich, think rich or rich or something like no shade to people who use them do whatever you gotta do to stimulate your mind, but it's so it's a world outside of as Donnie put it right the this masculine paradigm that all of these these types of books reinforce.

It's all about dominance, right? It's all about being the richest, the strongest, the most, you know, the most mindful all these other things. It's like, read some fiction. Right learn that it's okay to smile and breathe and have fun and to those off into these fantasy breath like it's okay All right, you ain't gotta be the hardest

nigga all the time. You ain't gotta be styles P everywhere you go Yeah, right what she say I'm harder than concrete, you know, it was just like it was a dope bar, you know It's just like nah, you know, you don't have to live that way because your insides are gonna corrode from that, you know Listen, this has been this has been

a dope conversation. I appreciate you brothers pulling up to have this conversation with me to tell us a little bit about your journey as individuals, as well as your journey as a duo

with regards to fellowship. of the griots and so with that being said what do you all have coming up with regards to fellowship of the griots how can they how can they reach you how can folk participate and also because i do want folk to to have a actual tangible takeaway from this if you can offer a prompt write a prompt for somebody who for somebody who's listening and they're like yeah you know i want to write i feel like writing something can you offer a prompt

to to get them started As far as what we have coming up, I am literally hosting a space right now while we're in here. So like we have people who come and write with us every Thursday night in our coworking group, which you were like the inspiration behind. They've been there forever. You ain't got to tell me, you know? Yeah. I know where my snitches get no, no, no. No, you worry, worry, worry. Now, hold, that's holding me accountable, right? That's what that, that's what that is.

So, I appreciate that. That's one of the things we have coming up. Donny, you wanna go through it? Uh yeah, I mean, in order to, you wanna follow us? There's a few, few avenues. Uh we're primarily on Instagram. So, you can look up Fellowship Degrills on Instagram. If you want to get in contact with us, email us at fellowship .grios .outlook .com. We do have a monthly newsletter. We often do update to our email chain as well. We do have a Facebook this upcoming month. February,

we get back to posting on there regularly. We have also a Linktree. So if you go to Linktree and look up Fellowship Degreos, you'll find us there as well, along with all of the updates on events in Events Central. As you ask for a prompt. A prompt, yeah, a quick prompt. But they gotta be not intricate, sophisticated. I mean,

you know, we talking about the brothers. So the first prompt that I put into the group chat in the last ceremonies was to write a story about a black man who designates his sexual liberation as holy. So again, write a story about a black man who designates his sexual liberation as holy. Yeah, y 'all have fun with that, Johnny. Yeah, that's heavy. That's heavy, no pun intended. You know, the book behind me. Listen, man, I appreciate both you brothers for pulling up.

I thank you for offering me your time, your wisdom, and your inspiration to continue in this practice of writing. So thank you both. Thank you, Brian. Thank you. Appreciate it. Great conversation. Thanks for the invitation.