Welcome to the Relationship Recovery Podcast hosted by Jessica Knight , a certified life coach who specializes in narcissistic and emotional abuse . This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior , set boundaries with yourself and others , and heal the relationship with yourself so you can learn to love in a healthy way .
Hello and thank you for being here . On today's podcast I have Anna Hindell . Anna is a psychotherapist based in New York and a Nyinggar yoga teacher , and her practice is about bringing us back into our bodies in a therapeutic environment .
When we connected about this podcast , i wanted the topic to be around trauma how we can begin to move through trauma and then begin to get back into our bodies and begin to heal . In my journey , i realized that there was a lot of trauma in my body and I needed to really work through it in order to truly heal .
It wasn't about like there were tightness in different areas there . It was like I had severe anxiety and I really needed to work through that , amongst other things . I think that you'll find this episode really helpful , especially if you noticed a lot of changes in your body as a result of going through the trauma of narcissistic and emotional abuse .
Hi Anna , thank you so much for joining me . Thanks , jessica . I'm really happy to be here today . Can you introduce yourself to us and share a little bit about what you do ?
Sure , my name is Anna Hindell . I am a psychotherapist and I am a yoga teacher in New York City . I help people connect what's going on in their bodies with what's going on in their mind .
I work from a very mind-body approach with people , specifically teenagers , adults and couples , on a range of issues Anxiety , depression , life transitions , relationship issues , trauma , different realms of parenting . That's a lot of my work .
Yeah , it sounds like you hit a lot of the main issues . Are there like doorway problems that bring people in feeling disconnected from their lives in general ?
Yeah , Oh yeah , And eating disorders is actually another little sub area which is a big part of working in the body .
Yeah , oh , absolutely . I know . I have a firsthand experience with that one . I work with many people that are dealing with or recovering from , or are trying to leave , emotional and narcissistic abuse And I'm sure , as you know , it's extremely difficult to begin to rationalize and get out of those situations when we're inside of them .
What are some of the effects that you've seen in your work over time from people that are dealing with abuse or constant abuse ?
Yeah , if I'm seeing someone , it's usually they are further along than contemplating getting out of the situation , because going to a therapist is clearly starting to commit to knowing you need help and need to make a change .
But what I've seen is different variations of shutting down , starting to numb out some emotion that can show up as having a flat affect , not feeling a range of emotion anymore , just feeling dull .
Or you could go to the other extreme of feeling extreme anxiety and having that sympathetic nervous system , fight or flight , evasion all the time , isolating , starting to not lose friends , not respond to friends , close up your social life and a lot of denial .
Yeah , Yeah , and so you touched on fight or flight And I know that from my work that those are some of the trauma responses . Can you just explain for our listeners , like what causes somebody to go into that trauma response ?
Sure . So when we are traumatized , it can be an ongoing set of circumstances or it can be a single circumstance . It's like our body freezes , our adrenaline is rushing and we somehow get through the situation and live .
But in these trauma responses it's almost like a little flash of that sympathetic nervous system reliving almost like the trauma of just getting so on and activated , and it's really just an extreme stress response And that might show up as a startle , as just being surprised , as just freezing and being flooded or being very stressed out , and that you know I'm not a
neurobiologist , but it's like all of those different chemicals in the brain as well . You know there are certain theories about it that it's almost like they get kind of frozen or stuck . You know different approaches of therapy that work to get these sort of realigned or re-stuck , but that's not . That's kind of getting a little bit more into the weeds .
Yeah , yeah , And so I forgot where I heard this . It might have been in some of my training or on a podcast , but there I heard a theory about when you are stuck in the trauma responses , your rational brain isn't necessarily turned on .
So when you are fawning or freezing or even in fighting , flight like that part of our brain that can think rationally , that's it's either simmered down or turned off . Is that accurate ?
I think that is absolutely accurate . If you think of yourself like standing in the middle of the street , a car is coming at you , you just know what to do . It's not a decision , it's not a like oh , i guess I should speed up now .
It's like you just know what to do and you hear these miraculous stories of like you know these small women lifting up a car to get their child from underneath .
It's like these things have actually happened , yeah , and in some way it is like a trauma response of just like I have to survive this Right And your body knows what to do , and so in dealing with abuse .
That sounds like the . That's the response that our brains go into of like I just need to find a way to survive this , but we are pulled back from thinking how can I think rationally or even like what do I actually even need in this ? It sounds like we're very disconnected from our mind and like our body and our mind are very disconnected .
Absolutely . And , as you know , and as many of your clients must know , there's the in trauma , there's the fight , flight or freeze response And you know all of them are ways of surviving and getting by , but they're not our decisions And they're not , it's nothing rational .
It's almost as if they're happening to you Right , right , particularly the freeze , you know you hear about kind of dissociating , as if you're flat , floating out of your body and noticing yourself . That's very common .
Right As complex PTSD created through that like constant , dissociate , the associating not really being in touch with ourselves , not having that connection . Or does it form in another way ? Because a lot of my clients will identify after seeing some you know on , either on the internet or reading a book about complex PTSD , and they start to , they identify with it .
They say that I have this And I know from going through a lot of this as well , I felt the same . I felt like I definitely have , like something is wrong . So how do you define complex PTSD and how does it show up as a result of trauma ?
Right . So complex PTSD , from my understanding , is when trauma isn't a single event but it's a prolonged , ongoing number of events Over time . Think of someone growing up in war . Think about you know civilians and you right now , and could be being a person of color growing up in America .
Like being faced with chronic microaggressions , implicit bias again and again . All of these things . It's like chipping away at ourselves , at our nervous system again and again . So that is my understanding of complex PTSD . You were talking more about the response to complex PTSD , or it could also just be the response to PTSD .
You know , if you're now in the arena , it's not like there's some raider or less than It's all just , it's all trauma . It's just trauma expressing itself .
Yeah , i have clients that have been in these long-term relationships .
You know , anywhere from I mean even a short-term relationship with a narcissist or an abuser will create PTSD in them , and I think a lot of people have some shame about even calling it that because they're like well , i didn't , like I didn't , it's not like I went to war and I didn't do these things .
And I sort of just remind them like you've been living in a survival response for a long time , right ?
there can be this sort of judgy , hierarchical thing that people like shame themselves with around trauma . they're like , well , it was just this , or I shouldn't feel this , or why am I overreacting ? Yeah , and , as we know , that just deepens shame and doesn't acknowledge , doesn't sort of give the gravity to the situation .
Yeah , yeah .
And so I think that a lot of us , when we're real , like we've made you know if we got to this point , like you said , people come to you a little bit later in their journey , once they've realized that they're committing to their healing and therefore committing to therapy and signing up to speak with therapists , especially somebody that's gonna connect the mind and
the body for them And , like you know , there's more that you will offer than just what I think traditional , as we see it , talk therapy would be . You're helping them get back into their bodies . When we start to kind of look back into our bodies , i think a lot of people feel very traumatized .
Even if we haven't been sexually abused or there's like nothing that happened to our physical body , even just the idea of looking inside can feel terrifying because we have to then , i guess , tap into ourselves and , in a way , like round ourselves . I describe this a lot that when I left my marriage I was in survival mode .
I had a one year old and , like all , my entire world was spent around keeping that kid alive , keeping myself , getting enough money so that we can pay for our apartment And just like . I don't even think I looked inside at myself for two years before , like I did , and I was like , holy shit , there's a lot of stuff going on there .
And then I was scared , of course , but then , of course , like I took it and healed and realized that there's a lot going on . I got a somatic therapist . I started to really try and work through my new wounds and my old childhood wounds .
But I remember feeling really scared and I can think about some clients that I know , if I said this to them , that they would just like be terrified . What are some ways that , if somebody comes to you and they feel really scared about the idea of connecting their minds and their body , how do you help them make sense of that relationship ?
And it might be helpful to explain too the importance of that relationship .
Sure , yeah , oh gosh , there's so much there , jessica , and I also just wanna sort of this feeling in awe of your story , because that takes a lot of courage to survive and to look at yourself and be on the journey to get more connected and live more fully . So that's inspiring . So , okay , why is it important to connect with your body ?
I'm gonna answer that first and then I'm gonna get into the safety part . So I'm saying that in case I lose sight . Okay , i think I'm a New Yorker . You're in Boston . These are busy places . Many people walk around and just identify with their mind .
It's like we're doing , doing , doing , and then the more we're connected with our mind , the less we're connected with our body . Yet we get all our information from what we feel in our body And our bodies are constantly giving our mind cues , whether we listen to them or not .
The more connected you are , which means in the most straightforward sense , like what am I feeling ? Oh , my stomach is like empty and growling , i'm hungry or I'm thirsty , or , wow , my chest is tight , and that just suddenly happened when my co-worker said that thing to me . Oh , that means I'm feeling uncomfortable about that .
You know , it's like we're always getting information from our body and the more we can pay attention to it , it's gonna inform us about what we feel , what we want , what we should do in certain decisions . So , oh , and I will add that you know , just because you're connected , it doesn't mean , oh , i'm gonna feel great all the time , you know it's all .
It can also mean Like , wow , i'm really sad , i'm feeling my grief , or I'm just oh , it's gray out today . You know all of that too , because I think sometimes there's a misconception of like , oh , if I'm connected , i should be happy , or , you know , it means something like that .
So just to piggyback off of that , just to make a point , i had this . Like I forgot what it was called . I think it was like a family consolation session .
It was a one-off session with somebody I'll put her link in the notes her name is Joanna , just in case anybody's interested in it But it was like a three-hour session basically on our unraveling what , and I knew a lot of this information . But it went even deeper .
It went definitely into more of the feeling about like why I end up But have ended up in abusive relationships and what I'm still fighting for , like I have a child , so I'm always thinking about her and like the examples that she'll have and hoping she doesn't have similar patterns , and working on Clearing out mine more and more and more and more .
And I remember after that session It wasn't that day , but it was like the next few days the tears that I were was crying it felt like a genuine release of pain that I just never let out and it was so Interesting .
But and I knew it felt different because I am very in tune with my body And I knew that it felt like a release and I also knew that just had to happen and I was like welcoming it . It wasn't this bad feeling of oh , i'm crying , there must be something wrong . It was .
I Probably haven't released this in a really long time hmm , that sounds really interesting .
So there was a lot of Maybe inner work and almost like metabolizing that information from that session . Yeah , i Just sometimes I'm like , oh , just let the body do its own digestion here with emotions , and then those tears came .
Yeah , and a lot of people in my sessions will like they'll cry because they're processing and they'll sometimes Apologize immediately for letting that emotion come out or that feeling come out .
And you know , with my I think about this a lot Because with my daughter , i try and welcome all feelings , whether it's there , you know , what we would label good , bad heart , whatever they might be .
I have like so many feelings charts in our home And it's just basically like they're all welcome and that's how I Lean into feelings and emotions with my clients and it sounds like you know , this was coming up for me when you were talking about Allowing any of those feelings to come up , because they didn't have to be good or bad , they don't have to be ones
that we like , favor or not . It's more about getting in touch with what's there Exactly .
You know , sometimes I say , when the tears come and people apologize or oh , i , you know , i wish I didn't have this feeling .
It's like let them be like clouds , like let them just , they're gonna come , they're gonna go , and like it's such a learning to Not make so much meaning about what we're feeling , about something in a particular moment in our lives at a particular moment in time , because it's true that Feelings change , yeah , and when you're in that trauma response , it feels like
it will never end , and that can be scary .
Yeah , that you know before we start this episode , you said something about like you know They were talking about how people get stuck in their minds and like what you , you know the kind of work that you do , and so when somebody is Replaying a lot of stories in their heads , when they are Ruminating , you know , and like they're just really stuck in the
thoughts , they're not in their body at all . It's all like actually can imagine like an old version of myself like doing this and just came to mind , but it's , i think it's a good example .
It's I remember , like that first year that I left , i was sitting at the beach because he was constantly threatening me of like different legal battles and with my kid , but I was not present .
My body was there But my mind was replaying everything I was worrying about in my head and I know that and I , when I look back , i feel like it was completely disconnected , like almost like a string was attaching my head to my body , but they weren't together .
And I know that there's a lot of people I work with like they cannot break that cycle of Ruminating , of worrying , and it doesn't just have to be an abuse . It could be with anxiety or work issues or other stressors . What is there ?
a tool either , like a tool or a way of getting back into the body that can help ground someone To help them break away from that rumination right .
So This is what I wanted to get to before , because it's um . So I work from a very relational Approach . So I guess what that means is when I start working with people , it's a relationship just like anything else and we have to build up trust , and the trust and safety of the room will allow For vulnerability and for that opening .
So you know , for example , so eventually someone won't apologize when the tears come Or they won't feel you know , feel shame when They're having big feelings , when people are Obsessing again and again . One way of work is to really start with awareness , because we can't change what we're not aware of . So I Work by first .
You know one way of working and nothing is really prescriptive . I meet the person where they're at And we just take it from there . But I like to bring out the rumination . So , because these things can be shameful .
So let's talk about it , say it again and again and again , and get people to start to notice throughout the week how often their mind is going to that place And just that pause , so it starts to bring in some noticing versus engaging and being the rumination .
And then to check in with what you're feeling in your body , because there's always a feeling , when the mind is having this , there's some need underneath the rumination , the need to be . I'm really nervous about what's going to happen tonight or anything . Where am I going to get my next meal , or is my child okay today ? So what's the need ?
Can you identify it ? So that does a couple of things . It gets you into your body , it brings you into the present And it starts to get you grounded into something that's more real Real , being like oh , my chest is tight versus just the ongoing replay of thoughts .
Right And I think that a lot of people that would listen to this , what they can most likely pick up on in their own life would be when they're around somebody who's toxic in their life and their body starts to close up a bit , or after they have a bit more awareness and they're noticing in these spaces that they feel calmer which might be a yoga session or
even just being around a friend . That's really comforting , that their body relaxes . And then when they get tensed up again , it's when that starts to cut . It's like their body's reacting to that , almost like that stimulus , like they can tell when something's off , which is , and having that awareness is . It's amazing .
And I think it's also so grounding when you're trying to leave , because most people feel pure terror when it comes to that time of leaving , that like they're going to die if they leave , not because that person is going to harm them even though that does come up but more like the pain that they're going to face from leaving this relationship that's hurting them
is going to kill . They won't be able to survive that pain .
Yeah , especially because it usually means building up your life from zero . Yeah , And they feel like zero very hard , And that's a space of really needing to recruit a lot of support through people , through organizations , through whatever . Whatever feels good .
Yeah , Yeah . Before the end I wanted to touch on how I anger yoga , and maybe I anger yoga specifically can help bring us back into the body . Somebody that doesn't know what I anger yoga is , can you give them the brief explanation of what that of like , basically like what the discipline looks like .
Sure . So I anger yoga is based sort of a system of yoga . Through BKS anger We really work with classical yoga poses And it's a system that works with a lot of alignment in the body And we use a lot of yoga props like the chair , the rope , walls , the bolsters , the blocks , the straps . And the props are used so that yoga can be accessible to anyone .
They're not to make your poses more fancy , they're to make you know if you can't touch the ground , put your hand on a block . If you can't touch the block , put your hand on the chair . You can't do that , use the wall .
It's like how to make yoga for anyone and we work from the periphery to the core , meaning hands and feet , arms and legs , the gross body , the big , the big and the obvious . And then from there it's like going inward , inward , inward to the spirit . So you know you can take it as far as you want .
You know some people just come to yoga to get flexible and feel a little stronger , but there's a very it's well . First of all it's a very rigorous training .
It's two years and a couple of assessments And I've really learned how to work with people through a therapeutic lens , bridging the psychotherapy work and the work around alignment and the pranayama , the breathing work .
This is really powerful And you know , in working with my clients who don't feel their body or just feel so stuck in particular places sometimes , like you know , i recently just had someone lying on the ground in my office , had some pillows under him to open up his chest , arms out to the side , and we were just doing some , you know , inhales and longer exhales
to just start to feel his body , and then we come back together and talk and it's a different experience for him And we talk about that and these little things can start to bring intelligence into the body .
Yeah , and awareness .
A sense of connection , a sense because then in the middle of the day he told me oh my God , i was aware when I was in breathing .
And then he adjusted Yeah , all of these experiences are making imprints in the body and in the mind to kind of breathe more fully , take deeper breaths , which then allows you to feel more grounded and feel more alive in your body .
Yeah , and I think feel a part of your life at the end of the day , right , it's like that's that feeling . I'm just feeling like as they . You know , if I'm in my body , i'm more present , i'm more aware , i could think clearer and therefore I'm more present and aware and alive in my own life .
Exactly , and then you have fun . Yeah , yeah , Yeah , that's like a very important thing . This life is tough .
Yeah , yeah , there , i forgot there was this one expi- . So last last summer my daughter and I went to Disney for a week and she is . We went for one day once , like one day , to Magic Kingdom and she's been wanting to go back and I wanted to go .
Why she still believes that , you know , princesses are real and Mickey is a person , and so I remember being there with her and just like she got asked to sit in In , like this , they're reserving the parade and there were three benches and they were reserved for like special .
I don't know , i don't even know who it was reserved for , but they said we have an extra spot And we're picking you to come over here . And I was just watching her enjoy the parade and all the characters come over to her and I , my first thought was like I'm so glad I'm present for this , like that I can see it and I can feel it .
I was crying because she was so happy and I just and like I said to the lady after , i'm like I'm a single parent . This kind of stuff doesn't happen to me , you know . I think that we're sometimes we feel invisible , you know , but you chose my daughter to come sit here . She's like just five years old .
It just made her day , her life , being able to do that . Every character came over to say hi to her And I , just like afterwards , i just felt so grateful and I don't think I would have had that feeling if I didn't have more of a mind-body connection , because I Know what it's like to live in my head . I did it for 30 something years and now I'm not .
Oh , Yeah , it's so interesting how joy and that type of happiness is really a full-body experience . Yeah , yeah , if you can feel it .
Yeah , and to just be able to like experience , like happy tears is actually a nice one too of like no , this is what this feels like . Like it's just a different kind of joy And I'm just glad that I'm present , that I'm here and that she's having this experience . Like , i love that she's having this experience . We both feel special .
You know The person who invited us probably feel special because they see , you know , like me , crying and you know . It's like . It's that feeling of like .
I'm grateful that it was almost like a moment of growth And I just wanted to touch on that because , like when you were talking about like having more fun and being like in the presence , a lot of the memories actually that came out in our episode today I wasn't thinking about before our call .
I don't think about them often , but it's almost a reminder of the Importance of working back into our bodies and being able to get there , even when it's scary , just trying to be open to it , even if it's in the smallest sense , like when you mentioned that your client was laying on the floor But the pillows opening their heart , their arms are stretched out
It's like that's such a grounding and like Pausing moment for that person .
Yeah , and let me add that this is someone I've been working with for two years . Yeah , one who's like oh , it's been a month , or I get on the floor , open up , make yourself right . There's a very fluid , comfortable , oh , this makes sense type of thing to do .
Yeah , so I am sure that people are going to listen to this and be very interested in connecting with you . I'm wondering if you could share for us how they can find you . I know you work in New York , so if you want to share your website and I'll also put it in the show notes and if anybody wants to connect , how they can Requeue thanks .
So my website is www . Anna Hindell Com and you can get all my information there . I'm also on Instagram , facebook and linked in through Anna Hindell Psychotherapy , i'm pretty sure . And Yeah , reach out whether you have a question about something I said . If something resonated , i'd love to get feedback and start conversations about all of this . So awesome .
Well , thank you so much for joining me today .
Thanks , jessica , it's been great You .