Interview with a Love Witch

Welcome to the relationship recovery podcast, hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others and heal the relationship with your.

So you can learn to love in a healthy way.

Hello, I'm Jessica Knight. And today I interview a very special guest Gwen Walsh. Gwen is a tart reader, an intuitive and sensuality coach working with Gwen throughout my emotionally abusive relationship. And a lot of other situations allowed me to look at my experience almost as a viewer as if I could take a step out of my.

See what was happening. See what was coming up in the cards and allow myself a different perspective. I've gone to her to talk about my business relationships, my daughter, and ex partnerships. Our conversation today will talk a bit about emotional abuse and a lot about Tara. And if you have any questions or if you wanna reach out to Gwen, All of her information will be in the show notes.

I hope you enjoyed the interview.

hello, Gwen. We met because one of my friends told me that I had to talk to you because you were a love witch. And that I was going through a breakup that was really, really challenging. And she'd be like, you need to talk to this woman and I just booked it. And I had no idea who you were  and I mean, obviously our journey has continued and we'll talk about that like more today, but can you tell me a little bit about how you became a love witch, but also where you are now?

Because I was on your website right before, and it said that like you, I think, and I think this is new, but you framed yourself as a sensuality coach, which I loved, but I would like to hear more about that too. Yeah, absolutely. So I guess how I became a love witch, if you will. Yeah. Is so I I've worn a lot of hats in my life  but the most special ones were being a sex educator and a taro reader, which are two things that I still am.

And so that's kind of how the love, which name came to be because it was emerging of those two things that seemed kind of disparate. But to me were very much interconnected in the sense of holding emotional space for people creating a safer space for people and helping people to get in touch with their intimate selves, whether that's emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, sexual intimacy, whatever.

So. I started well, to go way back  I was raised Roman Catholic. And so there was not a lot of talk, not any talk about sexuality or about really too, I'm sure. Yeah, exactly. Or about really like getting to know yourself. Yeah. My parents did a good job raising me as a self-aware person, but when I went to Catholic school, like there was maybe one health class.

On sex. And it was like saved for right at the end. And basically the teacher said don't have it. And that was the lesson. That was my sex ed class. And so I went into the world as an adolescent and a young adult, not knowing anything. And. Knowing how terrible that felt, thinking like God hates me or whatever.

And I was like, there must be a better way. . And so when I was in college, my third year of college, I finally settled on a major and it was women's studies. And so that was a really nice interdisciplinary way to learn about history, communications, bodily, autonomy, and sovereignty, all of these different things.

And I got an internship at planned parenthood and then continued as a volunteer leader. And then I got a job as a sex educator at a local sexuality boutique that was very education forward. And so all of those things merging together. It really gave me the opportunity to learn for myself and to help other people and to see the difference in their accountants, in their energy, in the way they communicate.

When they enter a space, feeling nervous and uneducated about their intimate selves. And once they receive that education and they feel physically and emotionally safer, how that changes them as a person, both in their sex lives and in their lives in general. And so doing that and also being a TA reader and taking professional clients at the studio that I was at when I first started reading professionally, like the similarities in the sense of having that safe space, allowing people to get in touch with their emotions.

And these parts of themselves that wider society was kind of like, no, we don't touch that. We don't go there and giving them a space to go. There was just so amazing, like seeing the change that it could create in them and how it gave them a greater sense of self efficacy and autonomy. And so that is kind of how the love witch thing was born.

And it actually started out as a blog. I started a blog called the love witch blog. OK. And , it was just. Little blog posts about different things. Like I would write about a sex toy, a astrological transit, a Sabba whatever, and then it kind of grew into, I could really make something out of this. I could really reach a lot of people with this.

And so that's how it grew into my business and TA ratings and courses and all this stuff. So I do a lot of different things. I have a lot of, kind of different job titles for myself, but I would definitely say that the love, which kind of idea of merging the sexuality, spirituality, psychology, self intimacy, emotional intimacy, all of that kind of.

Encapsulates the general idea.  yeah. Yeah. And so for when I found you, when I went to your website, like it, your website has changed too since a year ago or nine months ago. And so one of the things I realized though, is that typically when people like are a sex coach or something, sometimes that like, because of my own comfort with my own sexuality, sometimes I get like turned off, but I wasn't turned off from you.

Like it was very inviting. And I remember like reading through it and I actually sent it to a client that was like wanting to explore more of her sexuality. And I was like, there's just. There's a lot here around, like, I'm not used to feeling comfortable from somebody, but it was like, your energy made me comfortable.

And when you were just talking right now about like reading somebody's energy and like inviting some of these things in and allowing them to feel confident, like that's actually what I wrote down around like your tower readings and how I was feeling about them. Because when I came to you with my relationship stuff, it was a 30 minute love reading was kind of like the first thing.

And I was going through a breakup. I remember the cards saying like soulmate, like they were like, I think it was soulmate. There was another connection card. I forgot what it was though. It might have been lovers a card around there. And, but that, wasn't the message, the message. Wasn't this is your soulmate.

The message was more so like, Take the definition of soulmate as you will. And I followed Elizabeth Gilbert's definition, which is basically like, it's here to rock you and open you up. And so when you are reading for somebody, if they are going through a breakup, how do you, I know that when you're interpreting the cards that like, I can tell that there's like a lot going on for you, how do you know kind of like where to go with it?

Because I feel like when you read in the same way that I I'm sure that you helped, like the way you just described it, it was. This offers a new perspective to somebody and like, that's exactly what this does for me is it's like, takes me out of myself for a second and gives me another perspective. So I guess definitely like use like me as the example for that, like reading, how do you know or how do you like sensing like this isn't like stay in this relationship, but this is something else.

Yeah. So it's a mix of what I receive psychically and intuitively as well as kind. Aligning or how that merges with my own ethics. And to be clear, I am not a licensed therapist yet getting there, getting there.  yeah, but I'm not yet, but to give people an idea of how I operate my set of ethics. Is much closer and much more in alignment with a therapist than what somebody might think of as a fortune teller or something like that.

Yeah. So like my job is to help people and facilitate the space for people to make their own decisions, as opposed to telling people what to do. And so, especially with things like love and relationships, that's why I love doing love, reading so much because they are so emotionally heavy and weighted.

Like there's a lot of this decision really matters. This decision will have a big part in deciding the trajectory of my life. And we can't take that lightly, especially if it's somebody that someone has been with for a long time. Like it's very sensitive subject matter. So the way that I approach readings like that is being solutions based and very much autonomy forward for whoever I'm reading for.

So instead of me saying, Oh, we got the two of cups reversed and that, that means a breakup. So you're gonna break up with this person no matter what, like I'm never gonna say that to somebody. I might receive a certain card as like, look at it this way or think of consider it this way. And that is not telling you to do anything one way or the other.

But it's asking, like you said, for the person to consider a different perspective and allow that perspective to be a part of what informs their decision. So if I do get, for example, the two of cups in a reading reversed, which is traditionally seen as the breakup card, which I have gotten in readings for clients before.

I I'm not gonna say, oh, this is the breakup card. And that means you're breaking up with this person and it's faded and you can't do anything about it. Mm-hmm  what I will say is that when we look at the two of cups reversed, it indicates in inequality in the relationship. So acknowledging that there's most likely in inequality in the relationship.

What do you as the client wanna do about that? And what does your partner wanna do about it? Because I do really believe that if there is an issue in the relationship, even if it's a really difficult one to overcome, like infidelity or substance use or something like that. If both partners are willing to put in the time, energy and effort to work on that, whatever that means, whether that's communication, counseling, whatever.

Then I do believe that they can work through it and get through it if they are really dedicated to it. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but that's a choice that people have to make. And then other times the person just feels like, well, I could work on this, but I really feel like the relationship is done.

And so it puts the choice in the people's hands, instead of me saying, oh, this is what's faded to happen. And you can't do anything about it. So it kind of outlines where things are going, where things are at, so that people can make informed decisions based on. Okay. I acknowledge that there's an inequality here, or I acknowledge that one person's putting in way more effort than the other person.

What do I wanna do about that? Yeah. And it's also like, and I feel like we've talked about this before, too. This issue of I'm not somebody's BFF telling them, like, you should just stop texting that person. Like you should just break up with them because that's not gonna be helpful because people need to, like we said, make their own decisions in their own time.

And that personal timeline for someone could look like one day, one week, one year, one decade. And it's not my place to say, well, this is what I personally think you should do. It's my place to support someone in making a decision that feels good for them. And that feels sustainable for them. And for some people that might look like slowly growing apart from a person, because if they tried to do it all at.

It would just fail miserably and they would end up getting back together because those emotions are so heightened. And when you have someone tell you, oh, well, you should just stop talking to that person. That heightens those emotions again. And my job is not to sensationalize and heighten people's emotions.

It's to calm those emotions and provide an objective perspective so that people can make decisions from a place of calm instead of from a place of high sympathetic nervous system response. Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, as you were talking, I actually wrote down because you reminded me of the no contact thing and you were actually the only person in my life when I was leaving.

The emotionally abusive relationship that I wasn't ready to block. And like, that was the only advice I got from anybody is just cut it off. And it's like, you're asking me to kind of cut off my hand. Like I, you know, like were intertwined in various ways and I just wasn't ready. And it is said that like people take, it usually takes like seven tries to leave an emotionally abusive relationship.

And I don't know what tried number that was, but it was in the middle somewhere, probably number four or. And so I remember what, like, when you said, like, I'm not telling you to cut off contact and I even had like an event with this person, like coming up and you were like, I'm not telling you, like, not to go, like, maybe you do me.

Like, you know, you know, if you feel like you need to. And I felt like I did. And I remember I did. And it actually was really helpful when I was ready to cut off contact. It felt like this is the tie. Like now I'm ready. Cause I have like worked through and when I was ready it was complete. It wasn't. Oh, I'm gonna try and fail and try and fail.

It was like I'm working through this the way that I know how to, and when I get to this place, I'm gonna feel like, at least okay. With that decision. And I feel like that's how I work with people, you know, as like a coach too, of just, I can't tell you the timeline. I could tell you the things I'm give you some offerings, but you know, you.

I think that's what Tara has really been in my life. And so you're right. Like, I do think that you approach it with like a therapy mindset. And I feel that like I came to you a few weeks ago when I was like super activated and like the words that stuck out to me that you used were like protection and safety.

Those really helped me when I walked away from that. That's what I was thinking. Protection and safety. And so when you have someone that's in like a really tough or very emotional situation, and if they are very activated, I know you're gonna listen to the cards, but I'm curious, like what you lean into in terms of like helping them like calm it down, like get out of the trauma responses, fight flight, fun, freeze.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, just to preface this, of course, every circumstance is different. And so if it was a case where somebody felt that they were in immediate physical danger, then of course that would be different than somebody who it's like, oh, well we just keep texting and it's probably not the best.

So of course every situation is different and is going to warrant a different response. But if it is something where someone is not in immediate physical danger, Then the way that I frame it is in the sense of Tara being this either spiritual or secular psychological exercise, depending on what feels good for the individual of them coming back to themselves and building the kind of emotional skillset to make decisions for themselves.

Because I believe that. If we approach taro from this perspective of, I don't know anything and I'm getting a TA reading so that it can tell me what to do, then we're not growing as individuals. Like if I was just telling my clients like, okay, this is the step by step of what you need to do. And then come back to me next time.

You need to make a decision. That's not gonna help them to grow as people. And so my philosophy is kind of like teach someone to fish, feed them for a lifetime. But also probably feel like they're disappointing you if they don't follow, like, oh, Gwen said this, I can't book another reading. This was helpful, but I didn't do what she said.

It's like that's yeah. It's always an invitation. I feel like when you offer something, when you offer what the cars are saying, mm-hmm . Yeah. And there is a lot, especially for those of us living in America. We're both in America right now. There's a lot of shame in our culture about, am I doing things right?

Am I being successful? Am I being my best self? All of this stuff. And Tara is a very emotionally intimate and sensitive space. And so. When we approach it from this space of, I am the TA reader, and I'm telling you the little person what to do, because you can't make decisions for yourself. That's not an ethical business dynamic.

It's not an ethical healing dynamic. It's not an ethical, anything dynamic . Yeah. And so the way that I like to approach it is. Tara is a way for me to bring my expertise and the psychic and intuitive abilities that I do have as well as the emotional, psychological kind of skill sets that I do have to offer and merging it with the client's skill and choice and autonomy and how well they know themselves and their E.

And we're merging it with this tool for reflecting on these different areas of life so that they can make decisions that are good for them. And of course I help in that process. I support, I facilitate and I will sometimes give like step by step. Like I recommend you read this book or check out this framework or this psychological theory, but the idea is to ultimately.

Give someone a skill set or kind of a tool to put in their toolbox to help them as they go forward. So that a reading is not just a reading. It's kind of like a gift that keeps on giving if you will. Yeah. Because people can go back to that and say, oh, okay. Yeah. I should think about things like this. And maybe we got the soulmate card for this other situation.

And now that I'm in this new relationship, like thinking about things in that way, do I feel differently? Does it feel like a repetition of the same dynamic? And so it's not just a snapshot of that one time in someone's life. It's like something that they can go back to. And think about things in that same way.

And if slash, as they have things that they wanna work on further, then they can book again and we can continue moving forward in their lives. And so I really want it to be this kind of like the opposite of codependency, like helping someone to help themselves, if that makes sense. Yeah. And in terms of when somebody comes to me really activated again, I'm not going to fix someone's trauma in a 30 or 60 minute reading.

You just cannot. Nobody can do that. And that's okay. But what we can do is provide someone again with this opportunity to be in a safer space and to come back to themselves. And even if they need to have the reading now, and it doesn't really hit, but what's recorded so they can go back to it later when they are a little bit more emotionally distant and then it can be helpful to them.

Then. Taking it, however they want to take it and being in this space where I'm not gonna judge someone, if they're like, oh yeah. I went back to my toxic. I'm not gonna judge you, or if they're like, oh yeah, we ended up having sex or whatever. It is not my place to judge. And I, I just do not have a judgment.

Like that's literally my job is to not judge people. And so I would hope that for folks to have that safer space where they can say what they feel and say their. And go from there instead of pretending like life's good and okay. And kind of sidestepping the issue and being like, oh, asking for a friend, you know, because I feel like a lot of life is like that.

Yeah. And we don't wanna tell our besties if we ended up texting our ex again, we don't wanna tell our parents if we're going off with that guy that they don't like. And so Tara can be. Objective kind of blank slate if you will of, okay. This is where I'm at. What do I need to think about? What do I need to consider?

How can I make decisions myself in order to move forward? Yeah, absolutely. Especially with toxic relationships, emotional abuse. Nothing's linear. We actually did a reading on like my emotional abuse coaching. I remember that's actually was the message was that I was trying to make it this pattern. And like the cards were saying, and you were saying, like, it's saying, like be messy because like, it is messy.

And so is like, I think breakups, you know, and like healing from breakups. I remember something like I felt, cause I felt very sexually comfortable with my toxic emotionally abusive. And I really loved that part of myself through the cards and working together. I started to see that the sexuality was actually within me and the comfort was within me.

And when we had sex the last time, I remember it not feeling good and like being like, I hate this, like, am I doing this? Never thought I would have that feeling, but having that feeling and having it like, be, feel like affirmed. Was like, it was almost like, okay, this ran its course, or like I did the work I needed to do on me in the meantime.

And now I know that this is within me and it's not within the dynamic, but you also said something else about this is not the way you phrase it, but this is what I took from. It is like, if the cards are not really necessarily giving you what you want them to at times, or like, if there's a message that you don't really understand, you can go back and you can listen.

You can ask yourself. What does it mean at another time? And so if someone listening to this does book with you, what I want to know is that there have been plenty of times where, like the message wasn't exactly what I wanted. Wasn't like, you're get the exact apology, you know, on this date was enough in the cards that I felt like I could trust it.

Remember specifically getting for me, like the card that represented me was the star. And this card that represented my toxic X was the five of Pentacles. Mmm. And that's a very dark card. And I remember feeling like every time I go into this space, I sort of enter that. I enter like that hunched over, not even looking up like that was like, I think what was coming up was like this.

Person's not even looking in the world and when I'm in that space, I don't do that. And the star is like a beautiful part, has a lot of different meanings and it's flowy. And that was like, who I lost or that part of me is what I lost when I was in the dynamic. And I mean, there's a lot, I mean, I probably had like 25, other of those examples of just like, even like with the page growing to the king for like other dynamics.

And that has been super helpful too, to just, I always come back to the idea of, even if it's not what I wanna hear, there's so much in there that is so resonant that it's like, I can pause and listen to this, you know, again, I do record ours and I've listened to them more than once. Like our, our year reading.

I continue to listen. And I just, like, I always hear something I didn't hear in the moment. And I think a lot of the times, like I'm hearing it when I need to hear it. Exactly. And that's the thing is again, putting the, I sound like a revolutionary putting the power in the hands of the people. Really putting the power in the client's hands, the recipient's hands.

I think a lot of people have a fixation on predetermination and destiny. I mean, that's literally what our country was founded on. And so we have that kind of. Ancestral background of Salem witch trials, Calvinism, when you were born, like this was destined for you and you can't change it. And so I think this kind of new way of thinking that I hope more people take on as time goes on is that we can change things.

We have the autonomy and we are at a. At least in this country, in our development to be able to change things. Mm-hmm  depending on our unique circumstances, of course. And so when you get a card, for example, in a taro reading that you don't like, and I'm, I'm teaching a taro course right now. And so I just talked with my taro students about this yesterday, when you get a taro card that you don't like.

Instead of being like, oh, well I guess I'm fucked. Mm-hmm  thinking instead, why don't I like this? What about this? Do I not like mm-hmm  is it a card that I've been taught not to like mm-hmm  is it a card that represents a change that I need to make that I'm resisting and being compassionate with ourselves?

Because again, like we talked about. Having something or someone else tell you what changes you need to make, even if you made that change, but you weren't, again, going back to sex ed, if you're not totally consenting to making that change, it's not gonna stick mm-hmm . And so taking the time and energy to tune into yourself of like, why don't I wanna believe this relationship?

Or why do I not like the idea of being independent or whatever? Taking the time to think about that and really making it personal to you. And again, that doesn't mean that you are compelled to action before you feel ready, but it does indicate that there again is an invitation or an encouragement towards that reflection.

That could help you to move forward in your own personal timeline in a way that feels good for you. I know I've gotten the death card many a time.  when it's represented a breakup that I needed to initiate and I would resist it and resist it. And I just wasn't ready. I couldn't do it in one case for me, it literally took 10 years.

Yeah. And so I think we talked about this too, where I would say to you, I literally took 10 years to end things with a certain person. And so even if I wanted to judge, I am in no place to judge. Yeah. And so I think coming from that mutual understanding can really help of like, we're all just doing our best in the world.

And as long as we take our own time and fully consent to whatever's going on, as much as we can, that's going to create the lasting change. Yeah. Whereas if I'm telling someone to do something and they do it just because I told them to they're, that's not really empowerment for them. In some cases, again, if it's immediate physical danger, then there is action that has to be taken.

But if it is. Not that way. Mm-hmm  then it is important to take one's own time. And to again, really have that power within one's self to choose when and how it goes. And I remember just this past weekend, I did a reading for myself. I was on a retreat for my matron deity, and she is a goddess of prophecy amongst other things.

And so I pulled a prophecy card and it was a card that I didn't like. And instead of being like, oh no, I'm destined to a life of ruin. I was like, okay, if I don't like this card, what am I gonna do about it? If I don't like the prophecy that is being given to me right now, then that's an invitation for me to take action to change that.

So in my case, the prophecy was burnout. It was the night of wands reversed. And so I said to myself, okay, how am I going to ensure that I don't burn myself out? And so I've been taking more time to not be on Instagram so much, not be checking my email 5,000 times a day, taking more time to be at peace with myself in meditation, all of these things.

And that's the thing is like, there's nothing that's predetermined that we can't control for the most. It is when we get those things or when we get cards that we don't like, it's important to think like, why don't I like this? And how can I be self-compasionate and move forward, take action in a way that helps me to turn it into a situation that I do.

Like if that makes sense. Yeah. I actually did a reading the other day for myself on a situation that I'm in with my ex-husband and the tower card was one of the cards that came up and like, cuz the tower can look like, like in my brain it could be interpreted as like me being thrown out of the tower  or it could be like a change, like a spark and change.

It just reminds me too. Like I had a client, I still work with this client, but I had a client who was getting really frustrated with the wheel of fortune card, you know? And when you said, like, is it a card that represents change that I'm resisting? It was like, that kind of was the message. It was like sometimes they just keep appearing and you have to ask yourself if it keeps coming up.

Why am I just trying. To like, not Gaslight myself out of it, you know, like, Nope, don't have to do this. Like, you know, and it's like, just look at it, just ask the question. I think you do invite that in your session. I really feel like you can tell if someone is like, fuck, you know, , but I think you invite like the, what is the deeper meaning here?

We don't have to really do anything about it, but like let's acknowledge it exactly require. And especially with a card, like the tower, if we think of it, and this is why I love really diving deep with taro. If we look at the architecture of the tower, it's a medieval jail. Yeah. And so we might have talked about this before we might have not, but  like the idea of if it's a prison building that's burning down, is that really so bad?

Yeah. And so we see the chaos of the situation and we don't like it because as human beings, we don't like chaos. And this goes into like understanding these psychological concepts that can really validate our experience and help us to be kinder to ourselves and make real substantive change. If we look at things like attachment theory, We don't like breaking up with people no matter what type of person it is, even if it's a toxic, shitty person, because a breakup threatens our attachment system.

Because when we were cave people, if we were not attached to someone, we were more likely to die. And so our little reptilian brain thinks, oh, if I break up with this person, I may die. That's literally what's going on for a lot of. And so understanding that and saying, okay, maybe I'm not resisting the breakup because this is the person I'm meant to be with for my entire life.

Maybe I'm resisting the breakup because my little reptilian brain is telling me I may die. If, and of course, most of us don't wanna die. Yeah. And so understanding that, understanding how those physiological responses. And appreciating them for alerting us to danger because we do need those alerts to danger.

And we also have the ability to look at things kind of a second time beyond the initial reaction and say, okay, I appreciate that my body is trying to alert me to danger. And my more modern brain says, no, I will not actually die if I break up with this person. So I can make a more informed decision.

That's not just from my little cave person, brain. And so looking at the tower, we see chaos and most people don't love the idea of chaos. And so we resist the tower, but if it's a jail that's burning down and thus setting us free. Then that actually is a quote unquote good situation. It might be uncomfortable and unfamiliar, especially if we are used to the jail, it's kind of like the rescue dog that you open the door to its cage and it, it doesn't wanna come out because it's afraid of the change.

And so thinking of all of those things and kind of reframing it in a more constructive way can really help us to see past the initial perception of, oh, that's a bad card. I need to get away from it. Yeah. Well, cuz even in a toxic relationship, it can feel like that it could feel like the breakup is gonna kill me or if I'm never gonna find somebody again, it's like the tower.

What that represents to me is like an ending of a system, like, or ending of an idea. I think a lot of us resist the change, like, and we resist what that will look like. And I think because like, if that's all we know and that's all we are thinking, we're thinking like this is gonna suck or like the next I'm just gonna have to do this again when it's like, well, if there's like, if the reading is sort of saying like, this is an end of this idea, or like this idea of love or this idea of attachment, it can be so powerful.

And I think that's what the cards like really do offer and what I also. I like that you've never made a reversed card. Somebody listening to this may not know what, like a reversal actually means, but you've never framed a reversal as a negative or like a shadow. I think it invited me to not see them that way too.

Yeah. You explain like what a reversal is. Yeah. So a reversed card is when a card comes up, looking upside down instead of right side up and some readers read reversals and some don't, there are different reasons for reading them or not. I personally do because I feel like they add more nuance to a card.

And there's also, unfortunately, a lot of traditional Tara teachers and the Tara websites that will come up first when you Google the meaning of a. We'll often paint reversals in a very negative and often misogynistic light. So like the queen of Pentacles reversed. For example, if you look on like a popular Terra website for what does the queen of Pentacles reversed mean?

It will say things like selfish and envious and caddy and petty and all of these really awful misogynist things. And same for many other card. When in reality, this is why I think the psychic aspect of Tara is so important, which is why that's such a big part of how I teach taro, because if we pull a bunch of cards or even one card and we feel good about it, and then we flip it over and it's say the queen of Pentacles reversed, then we're like, oh, I, I guess my intuition was wrong.

I guess this is actually a bad card. I guess I'm actually a selfish and petty person. When I thought I was just taking more time for myself. And that again, engenders this feeling of, oh, it's that big authority over there that knows everything. And I know nothing, like I'm always the one that's wrong, which in my opinion is not the way that we should be approaching things, especially when it comes to intuition.

I think it's really important to listen to ourselves and yes, we can take from the traditional teachings, but I think it's emerging of the two. Not a hierarchy of one being better than the other. So that's kind of what reversals are. And so how I read reversals is I will kind of tune into how I feel about them before I even flip them over and see that they're reversed.

So if we do get a card that feels like, say an internalization or like a personalization and it comes up reverse. I will see that card as more of internal work or work that you're kind of doing on the inside instead of externally putting something out there. If that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, that definitely makes sense.

And we've had the situation before where the right side up was more resonant for the situation. And I don't know, your presence is very trusting. So like I was like trusting that that was the message that I was getting. I know we're almost at time. One of the questions I wanted to ask you, this would be late last question, and then was around if there's a card, that's your favorite.

But I actually reframed that question as we were talking. And like, I would rather ask knowing that you went through a 10 year relationship, which you told me the day or first session was really helpful for me, because I was like, This isn't this perfect love witch that has all the answers. It's like, no, she struggles too.

And I think like that's actually, what really helps me in helping clients is that like, I am somebody who I've gone through numerous tough relationships. I've been married. Like I have reworked my attachment style a lot. I'm still reworking it and gets me to understand in a different way. And so I'm just curious if there was a card that helped you heal through that relationship or like a pairing of cards.

Mm, that either kept showing up or message that it kept offering. Hmm. Oh, that's tough. Well, I did, at one point for that relationship, I did a reading kind of foreclosure, and this is what I like to do a lot with myself, for other clients, because like closure only really comes. From ourselves when we decide it, like we could get coffee and talk 8 million times with our ex and still decide that we don't have closure.

So that's what I did. And a part of that reading was like, what is the lesson here? And also like, what can I take comfort in? And I think that that having that balance of not using Tara as like finding out how we need to fix ourselves all the time, Is really important because if we're in a state of constant, like I need to change, I need to fix myself.

I need to get better. That's not fair to us. That's like a constant high SNS state of, oh, I better fix myself. I better up level and get to my next level or whatever. And so utilizing the, what can I take comfort in? What am I doing well at? Where am I not fucking up? Where do I not need to fix myself was really helpful.

I would say that. Hmm, the cards that I remember from that reading, I mean, in general, it's usually been the death card, which is my like kick in the butt to initiate breakups. I probably got that card for this person at one point. And I resist it a lot because I always thought it's like, oh, a death, something dying.

But in reality, the way that I see the death card now is being honest with myself. Like if I, or anyone were on their deathbed, what would they say about this relationship? Would they be glad that they continued it? Or not. And that's really how I see deaf as like being honest with ourselves, getting to the bones of the situation.

Hmm. And the other cards that I got that I remember most with that reading are the eight of swords and the queen of Pentacles. And the eight of swords was one of the last cards that I got, which was really helpful in the sense of. The aid of swords is kind of this self binding and this orientation toward for lack of a better way of saying it a scarcity mindset, because the way that the aid of swords is illustrated in the traditional rider, weight deck is it's somebody who is blindfolded and bound and who is standing in a circle of swords in this kind of barren sort of deserty.

Environment and behind them is this big castle. And so they are blinded, so they can't see anything. And even if they UN blindfolded themselves and they would look out, all they would see is a desert. And they'd be like, well, what was the point of unblinding myself? I'm just in a desert, but if they take the effort to turn around, which we see also in the five of.

The need to turn around to reorient oneself, emotionally, mentally, they would see that castle and in the five of cups, if the person turned around, they would see the two cups representing emotional opportunities waiting for them. And that's kind of on the same thread as the queen of Pentacles. For me, the queen of Pentacles in that reading was like, who am I?

What card represents me? And that's what I got. And so it really spoke to me as. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with me. There is nothing that I'm lacking that made this relationship not work out. And it also spoke, especially because I am someone who has an anxious attachment style or partially anxious attachment style, to some extent.

So seeing that and going back to that abundance mindset of. Again, people throw around the word abundance pretty loosely, but in this sense, meaning that this is not the one partner that will ever make me happy. This is not my one chance at love. This is someone who, if it works out great, if it doesn't okay, whatever, and there are so many other potential people that can make me happy.

And that's kind of the crux of the issue with anxious attachment people is. We feel like if it's not this one person. Then I will never find love again. Mm-hmm , you know, if it doesn't work out with this one person, I will be alone forever and I may die because of that. And I so hard with this one person and it didn't work out.

I'm definitely gonna die. Yeah, exactly. And so reframing that as actually I am the queen of Pentacles, the royalty, the self mastery of Pentacles, which is safety and groundedness and stability and abundance of safety in that way. And so reframing it in that sense was like, okay, there's nothing wrong with me.

It takes two or however the song goes . Yeah. And so if this other person is not in a place of wanting to be in this relationship with me, for whatever reason, then that's okay. I can simply move forward and be my queen of pentacle self. And at some point I will attract a person because there are so many people who could potentially be a fitting partner for me.

And so that really, really helped of reframing it. Not as a loss, but as a okay. With this one person out of the billions out there, it happened to not work out and that's okay. Mm-hmm  yeah. Yeah. I love that. Gwen. Thank you so, so much. This was amazing. Yeah. Thank you for having me about how people can find you.

I saw that you have a June workshop coming up, but I also like to talk very quickly about your readings. Yeah, sure. So I am mostly on Instagram. I'm at Gwen Walsh, just my name and my website is Gwen walsh.com. Same. And I do have for June, I have a group summer solstice TA reading. So for people who either it's more accessible to do the group style, or they just love the idea and the environment of a group reading that is there.

And that link is. In my website or on my Instagram bio, of course my books are open for one-on-one readings. And so you can find the link to that either on my Instagram page or my website as well. And I do have a group coaching program coming up soon for Leo season in 2022. So that's gonna run all the way through Leo season and it's gonna be centered on confidence and power and kind of maintaining that personal set of ethics, both in oneself and as a community member.

So really excited for all of that stuff coming up. Awesome. Thank you so much. And I put all your links in the show notes too, so that people can easily just click on Jessica.