Secretary of State Tony Blinken

of our country. So Secretary, blink and welcome. I cannot express how pleased I am to have this chance to talk with you. Thank you. I could not be happier to be able to spend some time with you. I've had the good fortune to have spent a lot of time in these halls with you in the past, the White House, over many years, but it's particularly fun to be connected via the podcast. Oh I agree. So let me ask you what of your first few weeks as Secretary of State look like and felt like to you? Well,

you know this better than anyone. It's a little bit like jumping onto a treadmill that's already moving in ten miles an hour, And partly it's just trying to hold on. But you know, we've obviously because of COVID, it's been a challenge, and there's a little bit of frustration that comes with that. I remember so well when you became secretary, you were off almost immediately on that airplane, visiting with working with engaging with our allies and partners and others

around the world. I wish I could do the same thing, but we're grounded now. The good news is I've been burning up the phone lines. I've been saying that it's a good thing the departments on the family plan. Otherwise I put bankrupted the budget. So there's that. But of course, you know as well as anyone better than anyone, it's just not not the same thing. So I'm really looking forward to being able to get out there. But what's been so gratifying is, you know, because I've been doing

this for for a while. I started working for President Clinton, uh and my first job was here at the State Department, working in the front office of the European Affairs Bureau, And so I've known the men and women of the Department for a long time. And the greatest pleasure I've had since I'm back is just reconnecting with people that

you and I know so well. Well, I can imagine what that's like for them as well, Secretary, because it's been a tough four years for our Foreign service officers and our civil service officials, and it's important to do what you're doing, which is spending time with them, talking with them, listening to them. I read where you said you felt confident and humble, and I thought that was a really good combination. As you embark on this important job.

You run a department with tens of thousands of Foreign Service officers, as I say, civil servant officials, and national employees out around the world, and you've got to figure out how you're going to make all of that work, especially since I think it's fair to say you're facing a deficit, a deficit of trust and a deficit of you know, leadership that the prior administration left you. So how are you trying to prioritize the myriad of challenges

and opportunities that you're looking at. Well, you know, you're exactly right that, in a sense, the first challenge is actually the building the institution, the men and women of the department, the Foreign Service officers, the civil servants, and as you rightly point out, what we call locally employed staff, the thousands, the tens of thousands of extraordinary men and women from the countries that are hosting us who work with us and work force, and so one of the

things that's been so important in this early going is to make it very clear to all of our colleagues that we're going to be relying and depending on them their expertise, their experience, their professionalism. And so I think one of the things we're gonna show and people will see in the weeks ahead as some of the senior appointments are made, we're going to be relying heavily on

career professionals. They bring so much to the table, and it would be really to operate with our hands tied behind our backs if we didn't rely on that and use that. The other piece, when it comes to the institution itself, is, and this is something I feel very strongly about, we have to have a foreign service, we have to have career professionals, We have to have a state department that looks like the country it represents, and that's been a real deficiency for a long long time.

So I'm about to appoint the very first Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer will report directly of the Secretary of State. We're going to focus on making sure we're recruiting effectively, we're retaining people, and that there's actual accountability for making progress. If we get the human resource piece of this right, then we're going to be so much more effective around the world and representing the country and in carrying out

the president's foreign policy. Well, starting with the work you've begun, I was fascinated about how both you and President Biden started close to home, reached out to our Canadian friends and our Mexican friends, And that's so important because establishing that strong relationship, especially during a time of COVID and obviously what we have going on our southern border, makes a lot of sense. But you and the President have both reached out to Europe. How are our friends and

allies feeling with the new administration. Can you give us any early updates on that? Well, I think it's it's fair to say that there's been a very warm welcome for President Biden and for all of us who've who come along with him, and and you know, quite honestly, a a thirst almost palpable for American engagement, and this is what I've heard in conversation after conversation. That doesn't

mean we don't have differences. We want to have problems with one of challenges, but I think there's a recognition that in fact they're better off when we're engaged, and of course we're better off what we're thinking about the world that we're facing in confronting. I think two things really stand out, and this is what animates the President's thinking and as a result animates are farm policy. The first is, you know, whether we like it or not,

the world tends not to organize itself. And when we're engaged in leading, we can help advance our own interests in values. But when we're not, then one or two things is likely to happen. Either some other country is going to try to take our place, but probably not in a way that advances the interesting values of the American people, or maybe just as bad no one does. And then you've got a vacuum, and it's usually filled by bad things before it's filled by good things. So

that premium on American engagement is really there. But the related, maybe flip side of that is and again I know

this animated you so strongly as Secretary. When we look at the things that are really going to have an impact on our fellow citizens lives, whether it's it's climate change, whether it's this pandemic, whether it's the spread of a lethal, really dangerous weapon of mass destruction, we know that not a single one of those challenges can be effectively dealt with by any one country acting one, even the United States. And also that there really is no lall high enough

or wide enough to guard against those problems. So the other premium we find is on cooperation and finding new ways to get countries to work with us and to work with them, And that's kind of where the State Department comes in. That's our job. The job of diplomats is to try to build that cooperation among countries to deal with the challenges that are actually going to have an impact on the lives of our fellow citizens. Well,

that is exactly the definition of the job. And I hope that during your service that you, working with the President and others in the administration, can make that case more effectively, because it's always a challenge to talk to the American people about what it is diplomats do, what development means, why it makes a difference. People get the Pentagon, they get the Defense Department, but they're not quite sure

about what the other stuff is. And to that point, I know that there are so many crises and conflicts that you are going to be facing, from Afghanistan to Ethiopia, Syria, Venezuela, and then some long term challenges posed by Russia and

most particularly China. And I was interested in some of what you and the President have been saying about Russia and how you're going to try to really send a clear message to Vladimir Putin that you know, the former president has gone, we're going to be, you know, imposing costs and consequences for behavior that is really out of bounds. Well, unfortunately,

we've seen that in so many different areas. And the bottom line is if we're not standing up strongly when our interests are being challenged or when our values are being challenged, that creates a feeling of impunity, and then the bad conduct continues and gets worse. But in any of these things, it's it's vitally important that we do it with our partners and allies. But just on Russia, we are in the midst of reviewing a series of

egregious actions that they've taken. Whether it is this solar winds cyber attack that's been been written about, whether it is what they've done to one of Mr. Putin's leading political opponents, Alessia Navalni, using a chemical weapon to try to kill him, whether it is these reports of the Russians putting bounties on our troops in Afghanistan, whether it's something you are all too familiar with, interference in our elections.

We are looking at all of this, and I can tell you with some confidence that we will take the appropriate actions as we see fit to make very clear that this kind of conduct is unacceptable for US, and we'll do it with our allies and partners. At the same time, you know, we have other important stakes, including

with Russia. One of those is what we call in the business strategic stability, making sure that with our still significant arsenals, particularly of nuclear weapons, that we don't do things that actually make conflict and god forbid of nuclear

exchange more likely. And so one of the very first things is, you know, the President Biden did is he extended the soul remaining but very important agreement between the United States and Russia the so called news Start agreement that puts significant limitations on our strategic nuclear arsenals, and that's a very good thing for both countries, and we'll look for opportunities to do more. But I think we have to be able to walk and chew gum at

the same time stand up strongly against Russian aggression. Ukraine continues to be a huge problem given Russia's intervention there, but also look for opportunities if they present themselves to advance our security on things like nuclear weapons. We're taking a quick break, stay with us. It would also be really worth trying to get China for the first time into arms control agreements. How is the administration looking at China?

Because again, we have to cooperate where we can on climate change, on global health, but then there's all the rest that we have to take some strong stands over. How are you thinking about China, Secretary? So as you know so well, it is both one of the most complicated relationships in the world and arguably one of the most, if not the most consequential, and I think it's important for people to see that there are different aspects to it.

There's an adversarial aspect, increasingly because China has been acting more aggressively beyond its borders and unfortunately more repressively within its borders. There's certainly a competitive aspect to it, but there's also a cooperative one because on some big issues, including climate change, we both have an interest in finding ways to work together. But here's the common denominator. Whether it's the adversarial piece, whether it's the competitive piece, whether

it's the cooper pies. We to be approaching China from a position of strength. And what I think that means is a few things. It means with our partners and allies, not without those alliances. Those partnerships are a source of strength in dealing with China. When we bring the collective weight of our partnerships and alliances to bear, it's a

lot harder for China to ignore. Also, as we as we were talking about just a few minutes ago, being engaged and leaning in as opposed to abdicating our responsibilities and pulling out of all of these international organizations that are actually shaping the rules that we all have to live by. When we pull back, China fills in. When we're engaged and leading, that's a source of strength. Third is a source of strength for us to actually stand

up for the values we believe in. So when we see in chinging weaker as being put into concentration camps, when we see democracy being trampled in Hong Kong, it's important that we stand up and point that out, that we don't ignore it, and that we get others to join us. And then, finally, and maybe maybe most importantly, we have to be investing in ourselves, in our own people, in our own workers, in our own companies, in our

own competitiveness. Because if we do that, and if we get a reasonably fair and level playing field, we're going to do just fine in the competition. I have tremendous confidence. But if we don't do it, that's going to allow China to be acting from position strength and not the United States. Oh and there's a last thing too that

I think it is so important. We also have to be strong and resilient in terms of our own democracy, because when we're questioning our own institutions, when we're attacking each other, that is the surest way to undermine the strength that we need to bring to this strategic competition with China. So I hope, particularly because this really is in many ways of bipartisan challenge. I hope that we can come together so we can do this smartly, effectively

and advance the interests of the country. Well, it needs to be bipartisan, even nonpartisan, because how we structure our relationship with China going forward will have such serious implications. And you have several times stressed the importance of our alliances, working with our partners, and the significance of international agreements.

And I was really delighted to see that the administration quickly went back into the Paris Accord on climate change, and I know you'll be working very hard on that, and you're also working to see if we can somehow reconstitute the Iran Agreement that you know, put a lid

on Iran's efforts to get a nuclear arsenal. And just to go to that point you made about working with others, you know, when I was in the Senate for eight years, I voted for every sanction against Iran that was ever put up for a vote, and you were there working with Senator Biden at that time, and we did everything we could to try to limit their options, to put pressure on them, but without the world it didn't matter.

And so As Secretary, I started working to put together international sanction, which then the U N. Security Council passed in June, and we began negotiations which were then completed in the second term of President Obama. And what people who pop up and talk about international agreements often really do an injustice to our understanding, is to act as though there's a perfect agreement somewhere and all we have to do is, you know, pick up a rock and

find it. You know, negotiations are difficult, they are time consuming, and oftentimes you don't get a PC, but you get as much as you can. And with the Iran Agreement, I think we got a long way towards stopping Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, all of which was then thrown out the window by the Trump administration. So do you look to see how you're going to be able to bring that alliance back together, which included China and Russia by the way, UH to try to prevent Iran

from getting a nuclear weapon resolutely. And and to your point, I think it really is important to understand that by definition, negotiations are always going to be imperfect. No one gets of what they want. But as President Biden likes to say, don't compare me to to the almighty compared to the alternative,

and that's really important. So the foundation that you set first in the Senate but then as a Secretary of State is what allowed us to get the agreement that we reached, and I feel very strongly that that was the right thing to do, because, as we both know, before the agreement, Iran was speeding toward the day when it would have the ability to produce enough to all material for a nuclear weapon on very short order time we reached the agreement, it was getting down towards weeks,

and that would have given us a very very hard choice to face either between allowing that to happen and Iran having a nuclear weapon or being on the threshold of having one and thus feeling it connect with even greater impunity, or maybe having to take military action with all of the possible unintended consequences that flow from that,

to deal with it. And so I think the best answer that we came up with was the agreement that that was reached that put the nuclear program in a box and that cut off its pathways to being able to produce the material it would need for a weapon, and push that so called breakout time past one year, so that if they did start back in that direction, we've got plenty of time to organize the world and

to do something about it. We had very strong sanctions that were poised to snap back if Iran violated the agreement, and maybe most important, the most intrusive monitoring an inspections regime that we've ever had for any arms control agreement, and our own intelligence folks said that Iran was respecting its commitments, even it's doing a lot of other things

that we don't like. So now after we got out of the deal, Rand felt, well, we can go ahead and no longer comply with the obligations that we undertook, and it is now getting back to that point where it could produce the seal material for a weapon on

very short order. So I think we have an interest in putting that back in a box and then seeing if we can actually build something even longer and stronger in terms of the duration of the agreement, and also dealing with some of the other actions that around takes that we have a real problem with ballistic missiles, the actions that takes in its neighborhood. The good news is because we've made a clear commitment that we're prepared to

re engage in diplomacy. The very allies and partners we need and who are alienated from us because we got out of the diplomacy business are now back with us, and that means they're also prepared to join us in taking strong action is necessary against some of the other things Around does that that we don't like. So we'll see, we're a long way from getting back to where we were.

We we don't know what around will do or won't do, but I think that it offers at least the possibility of dealing with the nuclear problem, uh and then hopefully dealing with some of the other problems. When I look around the world and I think about everything on your plate and all that you are going to be addressing as Secretary of State, it's these transnational, global problems that you cannot imagine dealing with unless you have the kind

of attitude you've just expressed, Mr Secretary. You know, I worry a lot about the flow of migration, which we know is going to be exacerbated by climate change, and we need to bring the world together to do something we we used to do, you know, decades ago kind of look ahead somewhat, you know, convene some international efforts on several fronts. One, obviously, what do we do about refugee flow? How do we try to deal with the

problems in the host country. In our hemisphere, it's primarily now Central America, even more than Mexico, that is unfortunately seeing people flee for a better life moving north toward our border. In Europe, it's you know, Syria, it's North Africa. Uh,

it's Afghanistan. Can you think about some of the big areas that maybe on a longer time frame, US Secretary, working with your counterparts around the world, could begin a process of trying to figure out what do we do about refugees, What do we do about rebuilding the w h O, getting better prepared for the next pandemic? What do we do to defend democracy? Those are three big

kind of cross cutting issues. Yeah. Absolutely, And it really does go back to what we started talking about, which is both having a sense of humility and confidence at the same time. I think they're flip sides at the same point. Humility because we certainly don't get everything right ourselves, and a lot of these problems are also not in the first instance, necessarily about us, even as they affect us, and we can't just flip a switch and expect to

solve them. But but confidence, because I still believe profoundly as I know you did, that when the United States is acting at its best, we still have a greater ability than any country on Earth to mobilize others in collective action, to bring other countries together to try to solve problems. And the big ones you just outlined are actually having a real effect on the lives of our fellow citizens, so we have an interest in in doing

something about them. The refugee situation, we have more people on the move around the planet than at any time since World War Two, about seventy million who have been felt compelled to leave their homes in one place or another. That's the magnitude of the problem, and by definition, no one country can tackle it alone. To your point, I think there's a lot that we can do collectively. For example, First of all, we want to try to do what we can with other countries to prevent and if necessary,

end conflicts that are in many places forcing people to flee. Second, these countries that take them in remarkable generosity. If you you mentioned Syrian refugees. As you know, if you go to Turkey, to Lebanon to Jordan's you see populations that are in some cases a quarter of the population is a Syrian refugee. That puts huge strain on local economies,

on local resources. So I think collectively we have an interest in helping these countries the first refuge be able to care for the refugees who they have, because on average, once someone's refugee, they tend to stay that way for well over a decade. So we have to help these countries, and then we have to put in place the support. The financing in the United States has to do it's part as well. We have long been a beacon for refugees around the world. That's something that I know the

President is committed to restoring. But we also have to be very mindful of our own orders, our own security, and we're very focused on that. Northern Triangle countries Guatemala, Salvador, Honduras, as you said, are increasingly the source of forced migration here, and what's the answer there. The main answer is really trying to deal with some of the so called root causes.

You know, it's always amazed me. Some people seem to think in Washington, for example, that someone gets up in the morning and says, Gee, wouldn't this be a great day to leave everything I know behind? To leave my language, my culture, my friends, my family, my city, put myself on the hands of traffickers, you know, take this incredibly hazardous journey, and then maybe go someplace where I don't

know anyone and maybe I'm not so wanted. It takes something extraordinary to compel people to feel that that's the only choice they have. So if you can help the countries in question deal with some of those drivers, deal with the corruption, deal with the crime uh and insecurity, deal with the lack of opportunity, and give people a reason to stay home and help build the future of their own country, that ultimately is how you get to

the bottom this. But it takes time. It takes sustained effort, and that's something I know President Biden's committed to doing. We'll be right back. Well, I know, um, you're gonna

have to get onto the important business of state. But something that people don't know about you, although it's recently broken in the press, is that you have your own Spotify channel where you post music you've recorded, So I have to ask, are you gonna be able to keep this going as Secretary of State and and maybe jam with, you know, other foreign ministers around the world, and even have a public performance on the eighth floor of the

State Department, where we do all of the entertaining. And it's hard to think of anything that would do more damage to our foreign policy or diplomacy than me doing that, you know. Uh So I wouldn't inflick that on my colleagues here or or or anyone abroad. It's been a lifelong passion something I'd taken immense enjoyment out of, you know. If I had a chance to actually do that as a career, I would have done it. And it turned out there was only one missing ingredient, which was talent.

It turns out also that the only people who seem to like or tolerate my music are extremely young children who haven't yet to golop critical factory. That's that's that's my demographical I'll play for my kids, but maybe not

for anyone else. Well, keep playing for your kids. I used to sing to my daughter when she was a baby until she learned to talk, and it was a memorable tragic evening when I'm singing away to her, rocking her before I put her to bed, and she reaches up and puts her little finger on my mouth and says, no sing, Mommy, no sing. So keep singing until you're told otherwise. And finally, what's the best advice you've gotten since you've started this amazing important job? You know, it's

it's it's funny. I was thinking back, and actually it's really advice that I got when I first started working for President Clinton and first set foot actually in the White House way back in And that's the advice that stayed with me, and it still animates what I think about this job, which is, make sure you have reverence and appreciation or the institution that you're working in and helping the lead and that extraordinary responsibility opportunity of doing

a job with the American flag behind you every day. But also never lose your sense of humor and never lose your sense of where you actually fit in to that larger scheme and larger sleep of history. And as long as you keep your eyes focused on both, you'll

do okay. Well, that really resonates with me because the late Great George Schultz, who served in the positions that you hold and that I was honored to hold, came to see me one day in the Ceremonial office on the seventh floor, and he brought with him a teddy bear, and he said, you're gonna face a lot of serious issues. You're gonna have a lot of problems. It's not always going to go our way in the United States, so

just do the best you can. But then remember, and he punched the little paw of the teddy bear, and the teddy bear started to sing, don't worry, be happy. That is, if I can find another one, Tony, I'll send it to you. I will look for I'm looking for it right now. And I can't resist because you mentioned George Schultz, who I revered also. And uh, you know.

The other wonderful story about Secretary Schultz was before one of our new ambassadors was sent off to post to represent the United States, he is Secretary would call them into that office, and you may remember he had a very large globe and he would ask them to point to their country on the globe. And so our new ambassador would try to find South Africa or or Poland, and he would gently correct them and put their finger

on the United States. And maybe that's the other most important piece of advice that I've gotten, and it's from the President of the United States, Joe Biden, which is ultimately our job is to be here on behalf of the American people and to make sure that everything we're doing has them in mind. Anything we're doing around the world, is it going in some way, maybe even some small way, going to make their life a little bit better, a little bit safer, a little bit more prosperous, a little

bit more hopeful. And if we keep that in mind, we'll have a good north star and be pretty grounded in what we do. Wow, that's a great way to end our conversation. I am so delighted to have this chance to talk with you, but I'm even more thrilled that you are serving in this capacity, Secretary B. Lincoln, and I join every well meaning American and wishing you the very best as you tackle these problems on our behalf. Thank you so much, Thank you, madam, Secretary. Wonderful to

be with you. I really hope that people will follow what the President, the Vice President and Secretary B. Lincoln are doing for our country because we talk about it as though it's foreign policy. But I think it's really important to stress that a lot of what happens in the world, like a pandemic, like climate change, like refugees fleeing their own countries, has a direct impact on our

own country, our prosperity, our security. So I hope listeners will not think of foreign policy as being foreign, but being part of how we act in the world and how we try to make life better for Americans right here at home. On a slightly different note, I'm excited to share some news about an upcoming project, and it

has to do with a secretary of state. You know, I was a big fan of the mystery writer Louise Penny before she and I became good friends, and now we are teaming up as co authors to write a political thriller about a secretary of state, well a fictional secretary of state anyway, but obviously it draws on my experiences and the experiences of others to tell a really exciting story. The book is called State of Terror, and it comes out on October twelfth of this year, and

you can preorder it now. In the meantime, you can listen to my interview with Louise from season one. The episode is called Books. Thanks so much for joining us this week. We'd love to hear from you with your thoughts on season two, your ideas for future episodes, or really anything else is on your mind. Just send an email to You and Me Both pod at gmail dot com. You and Me Both is brought to you by my

Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help from Juma Aberdeen, Nikki e tour, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Rob Russo, and Lona Vel Moro. Our engineer is Zach McNeice and the original music is by Forest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, please tell someone else about it. And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you

waiting for? You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you next week.