I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me, both for this season finale. I'm coming to you from my home in New York, place called Chappaquah, not far from the city, and joining me is a special guest who really needs no introduction, the forty second President and my husband, Bill Clinton.
So welcome to the show.
Bill and I think this is kind of an interesting first in a way because we've been having conversations big and small about literally everything for over fifty years, but we've never done this before where we have sat down to record a conversation just the two of us.
So people might be wondering what we've been saying for fa few years.
Well, this will give them a little glimpse into our never ended conversation. There's so much to talk about. Let's start with some global issues that we've been thinking and talking a lot about lately. Bill, I would really like for you to share with our listeners a brief window into the work that you did as president to bring the Israelis and Palestinians together to create a state for
the Palestinians. You started at the very beginning of your presidency with the Oslo Accords, and we're literally working on this at the historic Camp David Summit toward the end of your term.
Give our listeners some.
Insight into what you saw and did during your eight years as president to deal with this very challenging situation.
Well, I'll try to do it in a way that is still relevant to what is going on today. And I have been utterly stunned the lack of knowledge of what happened before all this mess occurred that we're living through now. So first, shortly after I was elected, we were numbified that the Israelis and the Palestinians were talking in Oslo, Norway, and that they might come up with a plan for a peace process. But if they did, they wanted America to kind of oversee it. Both sides
sort of trusted America back then, so we started. And then shortly after I became president, in my first year anyway, in September, we had the signing of the so called Olo Accords on the south lawn of the White House, and it was a very hopeful time. Yasa Arafat was there, obviously, Shimone Perez was there as the Foreign Minister to Prime Minister. It's Acrabine and lots of other people who became a part of our almost everyday life. You remember the eight
years I was in the White House. We worked for eight solid years. So it's very important that people understand where this was then, because there was an enormous hunger in Israel to have a piece deal that would give the Palestinians their state. We had a prime minister first in Rabin, who literally gave his life. He was murdered because he was trying to get this two state solution.
It broke my heart. I loved him as much as any man I've ever known, and we but it's hard to explain now that you know, we were all working together all the time. We were talking a shorthand to each other, including the Palestinian leaders in the Israelis and me personally. So Rabine was.
Killed and that was what nineteen ninety five, late.
Nineteen ninety five November, Okay, So after Rabin was killed, Paris was Prime minister for wild and Nettanil who got in. Then in nineteen ninety eight, something truly remarkable happened. We had the only year at that time, the first year in the history of Israel, when not a single solitary person was killed by a terrorist incident, and it was stunning.
We finally had a year when it all worked, and it's impossible to believe now, but I mean, you had the Israeli intelligence fausting intelligence and the American CIA working hand in glove with others trying to keep people alive. Was fascinating. Okay. So then in nineteen ninety eight there was an election in which the people of Israel said, let's try again for peace, and that's how Ahudbarok, who was the most decorative soldier in Israeli history, became Prime Minister.
And this is the important thing for people to know. Now, this is not all that long ago, twenty five years ago. We all we're working together, and we kept turning over more land to the Palestinians and kept, you know, moving forward on all these other issues. And finally at the end of my term, near the end, we decided to meet at Camp David because the Palestinians had still never actually said what they would accept. So we met at Camp David, and I never thought we'd get an agreement there.
All the stuff you read today, almost one hundred percent of it is just hooey for people who either weren't there or have bad memories, and I was personally involved in this. This wasn't some handed over to my aids. So what we wanted to know what Camp David is how much will the traffic bear here? Where? Is there going to be a deal that the Palestinians will have a state, It will be sustainable economically and politically and supportable, and it will lead to a total end of the
conflict and a new era of partnership. There were people who didn't like that, including Hamas. Hamas never signed on to this. Their goal was always to get rid of Israel.
They've always been for the elimination of Israel.
The elimination they wanted to.
Doubt in their actions, their their documents, or anything.
Else they always wanted to make. Used to talk about making Israel unlivable so all the people would just leave. So here we go. We go to Camp David, and after that I had a pretty good idea of what they would and wouldn't take as a state.
And what Israel would and wouldn't give exactly.
So we worked for a little while after Camp David, and both sides then asked me to offer a final proposal where they would basically fill in the blanks. And this is what our listeners need to know. This is
what was offered, what Israel agreed to. I recommended that there'd be two states, that Israel is within the sixty seven borders as the UN resolutions called for, with some land adjustments to cover eighty plus percent of the settlers on the West Bank, which were then under one hundred thousand, far fewer than now, And that the Palestinians get the West Bank called for in the Oslo courts, plus Gaza, of course, plus four percent of Israel to make up
for the four percent necessary to include the settlers. And that the West Bank and Gaza be connected by overhead highways that were subject to no checks, total free movement, and that there be you know, agreed upon prison releases and all that so that we could settle the populations as much as possible. The Palestinians would get a capital in East Jerusalem. That was a big known onn Israeli politics for years. You can never agree to divide Jerusalem
a hood. Barack's cabinet supported a capital in East Jerusalem for the Palacinians. It was a pretty good deal. I mean it's unthinkable today, that's how close we were. There were listening posts in the West Bank which Israel had, which they said at the time they were right. They said, we can't dismantle these now because of Saddam Hussein and because we don't have a peace agreement with Syria with Osat, so we will let the Palacinians have equal access and effect.
Every time we're up fair, they can be up there, because we all understood that if we had a peace agreement with a new state, the enemies of peace would try to kill the leaders of both sides for at least three or four years.
Remember, they killed unwar Sadad Yep after Egypt made peace.
Who killed Saddad an Egyptian who thought he was a bad Muslim and a bad Egyptian for making peace? Who Robine and Israeli who came from a radical settler group who thought he had betrayed his faith in his nation by making peace with his neighbors and trying to give the Palestinians estate, who destroyed a hood Barocks government, the settlers who didn't want him to give the Palestinians estate. Now, you can't live in the past, but let's look at what happened after that. After I left office.
Well, I think it's important though, before you go there. You made the offer that you've just described. Yeah, I did, and the Israelis accepted it.
And the Israelis accepted it, and Palistinians wanted a few more blocks for Christian churches in the Old City. They wanted a clear say, which we gave them on what countries would be in an international security force that we would put on the eastern flank of the Palestinian state. We're owning over a few blocks of the Old City of Jerusalem. So I laid all this out there. Six weeks before I left office, Yah Sir Arafat was in town. He came by the Seami and I wanted to see
him alone. And keep in mind, the United Nations had designated Arafat to represent the Palestinians. So I asked him, I said, are we going to do this peace deal? He said sure. I said no, no, No. I said, this is serious because I have a chance to go to North Korea and make an agreement with them that could end their nuclear program and their missile program and take a dark cloud off the future of North Asia.
But American president can't just drop down on North Korea for the first time since the end of the Korean War. I have to go to South Korea. I have to go to Japan, which still had prisoners in North Korea. I have to go to Russia and China, which were the co sponsors of the peace. He said, well, how long will it take? I said about twelve days if I don't sleep, and he said, oh, you can't do that. It's the only time I was ever with their fat where I saw tears in his eyes. He said, you
can't do that. I said, why, because you're going to sign this deal when we get it done, and it needs to look like I'm putting heavy pressure on you. He said, sure, yes, you can't go away. I said, okay, but you just owe me the truth. If you're not going to do this, you have to tell me. He said, my god, if we don't do it while you're here, it may be ten years, twenty years, maybe forever. We have to do it now. He had never ever lied
to me. He was hard to get a commitment out of, but he never lied, and so he just it never happened. I don't know whether he was afraid he would be killed immediately, but he certainly wasn't afraid. He spent the night in a different place for twenty years every night. In other words, people were trying to kill him too. All this time, everybody acts like, all this is a
free run, you know. It's if you try to make peace between people who've been fighting, the people who have an interest in the fighting will try to stop you. So anyway, the date came and the date went, and I have now listened for over twenty years to people tell me why Camp David was a failure. It wasn't. It was never designed to get a final agreement. No one in their right mind who'd been dealing with this
believed that we could get an agreement. To Camp David, what we could get is a Pelsinians to tell us exactly where a deal might be, and then we pushed like crazy to get it. And even after I left, we had one more month in which they were working, and I was wearing air fat out by then. I said, why aren't you doing this deal? Don't you understand? He said, well, the Israelis are two week to make the deal. Now,
Barack's going to lose the election. I say, he's going to lose the election because you let him get way out on his ledge, and you haven't taking this deal, and instead you started the second Intifado. I said, but I still have a seventy four percent approval riating in Israel, and we're going to ratify this deal or defeat it in an election. And he never said yes, he never said no, and he just I mean, that's basically what happened, and we're living with this that we could have had
twenty five years. Imagine this of a Palaesinian.
State, or twenty three years.
That'd be twenty three years of Palasinian state on the West Bank and Gaza with no checkpoints, no stops, no nothing. And look what happened afterward. Ariel Sharon defeated net Nyahu for Prime Minister, and then the only question was which hardliner would win, because the Israeli voters by then said, oh my god, if they won't take what Barak and his cabinet offered, they're not going to take anything. Well, this elect the toughest guy we can.
We'll be back right after this quick break before we move on to something else that's not quite as you know, terrible as war. We are still in the midst of trying to help Ukraine against the savage invasion by Russia. And Congress is currently debating the terms of a foreign aid package which is necessary to provide further funding and support to Ukraine. And you're seeing the opposition to helping Ukraine primarily but not exclusively in the Republican Party.
So you think we're.
Going to get aid to help Ukraine, which is you know, in a very difficult position because obviously it doesn't have the population that Russia does. Russia's emptied its jails, for heaven's sakes to put people on the front line as literally cannon fodder. Russia has much more resources than Ukraine to keep putting advanced weaponry. How do you see that current conflict because there are people in our country. You don't understand that if Putin gets away with this in Ukraine,
watch out, because he's not going to stop. Oh.
I think this is one of the most momentous decisions we have to make that will affect the next twenty or thirty years. The United States cannot walk away from Ukraine. I think there are two things going on. The Republicans in the Congress are using this to try to force the Democrats and the White House to agree to more restrictions along the border, because that feeds into their narrative that this is a big parble problem and it's the end of the world is at the hand if one
more immigrant gets into the country. That's part of it. But it's also true that there is a core in our Congress that seems to turn to do whatever Vladimir Putin wants because he works so hard to help them get the White House in twenty sixteen. And you know, this is not a game. It's not just what's in the best interests of one political party or another. What they really want the Russians is the metals and precious earths in eastern Ukraine, and Ukraine and Russia together have
thirty percent of the world's wheat production. So I don't know if there's any non violent endo this, but I know that there will be no non violent into it unless we stay with Ukraine. Look, they haven't asked a single American to die for them. They haven't asked anybody else to fight and die for them. All they've asked us to do is to deal with Putin and his allies, giving him an almost insurmountable economic and military advantage and I think if we walk away from them, we will
be paying for it thirty years from now. I think you have no idea. No one will trust the United States anymore as a partner. No one will believe we really care about freedom anymore. They will think this is everything's just the deal. What helps me today, what helps me tomorrow. We have no permanent values and convictions. I think it'll be a terrible mistake, but we may have
to make a deal with the Republicans. I think, you know, there's some things that could be done along the border that wouldn't be so bad, because we are dealing with volumes of people coming in far greater than we've had in my lifetime. And it's not just America. It's happening everywhere. There's this huge upheaval in the world. So I think they ought to get together and try to work that out. But it is true that there is a cadre on the right that believes that Putin ought to win, and
they're just wrong. They can't imagine unless you don't care about democracy and don't care if we prevail, that this is this is a big, big deal, and yes it costs some money. But they haven't asked us to die for them. They've asked us to give them a chance to live, and we ought to do it. Well.
You know, you mentioned migration, and one of the increasing reasons for migration is the impact of climate change that is affecting, you know, people's ability to actually make a living, to be farmers in many parts, you know, they deal with drought and wildfires and flooding and erosion, landslides, all
of that. And I just came back from the Climate Conference COP twenty eight in Dubai, which was both energizing because there are so many people trying so hard to deal with you know, the two halfs of the you know, the puzzle to try to mitigate the rising temperatures before it is too late, and try to help people adapt to the rising temperatures that are actually with us right now.
And you've worked on climate change issues all over the world, particularly through the Clinton Global Initiative and all of its many commitments and partnerships. So what gives you hope in this fight against climate change?
First of all, I think there continues to be a passion among young people to do something about this, an awareness and acceptance, a refusal to live in denial, and I think that's very hopeful. Secondly, every year, practically every month unveils new opportunities to generate more energy with fewer emissions, or to be more efficient in doing work around the world. They're all these opportunities. So the real challenges in getting leaders in place in every country from the national level down,
who will hammer out the practical answers of this. This is you know, this is not a partiticularly ideological issue. This is a if you do one, two, three things, you'll get four or five six results. And I think we're it's an important thing that we're there. We don't have many open denihilists anymore. And that's the thing that gives me hope. That and the kids. I think that young people, if they just keep pushing, there's still an
enormous amount that we could do. For example, in this country, that would actually be job creators, that will add more jobs to the economy, that will brighten the future and reduce the emissions.
Well, Bill, you know, you've had some really interesting chances to travel this year and met some remarkable people. And I don't want to go through a travelogue, but maybe you could just quickly describe one of your most recent trips to Albania. You know, I think as we are in the holiday season, people want to hear about some hope. They want to hear that progress is possible. They want to feel that people, you know, can come together. And you saw an experience.
I did that. I think there are lots of reasons to be hopeful looking around the world. I mean, we also went to Northern Ireland to celebrate the twenty five years of the peace process. And even though they're fighting over the government, nobody wants to go back to the conflict, and the Irish keep voting for more inclusive candidates, policies, futures.
So then you know, I went to Albania, which is the Albania was just thirty years ago the last closed Stalinist dictatorship, and their dictator committed suicide and they opened the country and they decided to go in a total opposite direction. And at the same time when I got involved with them a little later, Kosovo, which is part was part of Serbia at the time, but basically it was over ninety something percent in Albanian was for its existence against Melosovich and Serbia, and so Hillary and I
became very involved. We're living here in Chapqua, New York, and New York has the largest Albanian population outside Albania, and a lot of it's concentrated along where we live. Down this block from where I'm talking, we have two coast of our Albanian families. So I went there. I'd never been to Albania before, and Edi Rama, the Prime Minister, met me. He's a former mayor of Toronto, but he's
also a gifted artist and a former basketball player. He is about six foot six and I stayed in what was the official Communist guest house in Stalinus days and it's a picture of how the world can move from close to open, how the world can move from war to peace. The new cabinet is about forty percent female, the new Parliament is about the same. It's as one of the most the youngest, most vigorous, and most gender balanced governments in Europe. So I wish the whole world
could go to Albania for a day or two. I mean, it's just such a beautiful place, and they know what it's like to lose all their freedom. They're not having these debates that we're having in America. All they wanted to talk about was the future?
You know, you told me one of the most moving parts of your experience is that they brought together all these children who their parents had named for you, and you got to meet dozens of children who were named Bill or William or Clinton.
Yeah, it was amazing, but it was optimistic.
It was the thing I think is important. I wish every American could have seen it, not because of me, but because that's what people think of America. It's what people think we ought to be doing, saving lives, lifting people together, recognizing people's right to be and chart their own course. It was so touching.
We'll be right back.
Well, we're about to go into another election year, and I think the stakes could not be higher. What is your assessment of the stakes of this election in a way that our listeners can really take to heart and think about as we move forward.
Well, first, I think we should be under no illusion there are a lot of Republicans who are just good Americans who disagree with Democrats like you and me. That's fine, But there is a hardcore now out there who believe so strongly that there are dominance of the cultural issues and the political issues is essential, and that they're willing to basically say goodbye to our democracy, and I don't want to say good about our democracy. I kind of
like it here. I like all these arguments, and I like uncertainties, and I like fights, you know, in a good sense.
And even finding common ground to compromise to find solutions for problems.
You know, I talk to people all the time who were even people who were big opponents of mine when I was president, who say, you know, we're actually on the verge of using our democracy. Liz Cheney wrote this new book you know about it. I understand how a lot of people don't believe that or can't believe that, and they have so much to do every week to pay their bills, keep body and soul together, think about
the things their kids needs. I understand that. But we literally have a chance to lose the democratic wealth life we have been trying to perfect over two hundred years. And it's not just majority rule, it's also minority rights, rule of law, individual rights, restraints on what government can and can't do, And so I think that's important. I agree there are imminent challenges that we have to address, but it's interesting almost every problem we've got, let's take immigration.
This is actually a huge opportunity if we did like Canada does, for example, if people had to sponsor immigrants, not take financial responsibility for them, but you know, set up centers where they could work. What happens is only the places in Canada where people want immigrants get immigrants, and they're filling labor holes all the time that need to be filled. I mean, look at America has got
a negative birth rate. There are places in this country that have huge shortages of workers, and most of these folks are just asking for a chance to work. I mean that's just one example. So if we were tactical instead of ideological, if we were just sitting down from opposite points of view to solve problems, I think most of this stuff could be a lot better. You know, George Bush and I do this leadership program together and
it's about half Republican, half Democrat. We get together and meet with them and they try to solve problems together.
These are mid career people.
Yeah, they're mid career people basically from twenty eight to forty two more or less. And the only requirement for getting in our program is you have to have something to do that you do besides your day job, you have to have some interest in something else. And it's been a joy because they go to his library in mine and we meet with them, and they go to the LBJ library and his father's library, and they learn how other people dealt with problems, and then they agree
to work on certain problems. Once they agree to work on a problem, more than seventy percent of the time they reach a consensus about what to do about it. It's fascinating. So he and I have had a good time, but we have about decided we're troglodites were the We are the dinosaurs of the current age. Maybe because everything now is supposed to be a continuous fight and it's highly lucrative for the media, but it's a lousy way to.
Run a railroad, you know.
As I said, we have carried on a conversation now for more than fifty years, and you know, part of I think the real core of our relationships, our marriage has been we started a conversation and we never stopped, through good times and hard times, through happy times and sad times. It doesn't mean we don't get frustrated and upset with the other, because that's human nature, but we always kept talking. You know, I'm not giving relationship advice.
Everybody has to find their own way. But I think our ability to keep talking is one of the reasons why we're still sitting here together.
Yeah, I did too, I think you know, we've just came home from going to that cop and she got a little sick on the trip. She hadn't been home two minutes before. I knew what was wrong, what was right after she was feeling. That happens if you invest time in somebody over a long time, and we can talk a lot about how people have to talk about everything.
I think one of the gifts you get from investing time in somebody over a long time is what you don't have to say what you see and know without anybody saying something.
You know.
There is no perfect handbook for life. You have to figure it out as you go along. And you've always got to decide whether whatever commitment you make in whatever way or fulfilling that the bonds of love and the benefits of love outweigh the burdens and the frustrations. And that's a decision nobody can make for you. But we do know that people in general are social animals. That's why I think all this hate based politics they so
bad for us. So you know, the idea that our differences are so much more important than what we have in common. And you know, I may sound Pollyanna, but I've lived for this for a long time and buy this. And I have always believed that we should keep trying to understand one another and keep reaching out to each other. And I believe that whether it starts with Hillary and me or anybody else's family, or the children or grandchildren
we have, it's a gift to be alive. It carries burdens, it carries challenges, but I think just remembering that is important. We should just never take it for granted, never take it for granted. And I'm actually pretty optimistic, I always have been, but I have been very worried at this moment in history that our capacity city to grow and cooperation and understanding is a little bit under out.
I want to end Bill by telling our listeners that you, I believe are Santa's Chief Elf. I have never met anybody who loves Christmas as much as you do. Literally, from the moment we started dating, I realized you were totally consumed by Christmas. By the decorating, the gift giving,
the tree trimming, the church services, everything about Christmas. And I know that, you know, while I was in Dubai at the Climate conference, you were putting ornaments on the tree and you know, starting to decorate the house, which I thank you for very much. You know, but I think of your fundamentally optimistic and hopeful spirit as really reaching a christ Shindo every year around Christmas. And you know we now have our three grandchildren who make you know,
Christmas so meaningful to us. And what are some of your favorite things to do during Christmas and your you know love of this season and what it represents.
Well, it is true I am the ultimate Christmas Elf. Even when I was in the White House, I wrapped my own Christmas present, and I didn't do it for brownie points. I did it because I like it and because I think it put me in the right humor. The whole idea of the fundamental gifts of life and making new beginning and thinking of other people and loving them as yourselves and trying to do that that's always
been important to me. Last night I put the ornaments on our Christmas tree, and I admit the older I get the fewer I put out used to be the tree was about to teeth over every time, because I mean, we've been married a long time and I have a couple of ornaments to go back to before we got married.
So and you always know if we didn't bring all the boxes up, because you always say to me, well, where was that ornament, you know, the one that we got when Chelsea was born or whatever the you know, the provenance might be.
But anyway, I think it's a good thing for people to be grateful for their blessings and to count them and to recognize that most people, no matter how difficult life is for them, can always think of somebody who's worse off and in greater need, and therefore we should try to lift them up. I also love being with our grandchildren Christmas time. I love going to their Christmas pageants.
I love going to the church pageants. I love going to see the rockets at Radio City, and I guess we'll go to the train show with the Botanical Garden. For it's all over being a great parent at Christmas. If you live in and around New York, it's pretty fun because there's so many things for your grandchildren to go gaga over.
I love them well. We want to wish everyone a really really happy holiday season. Happy Hanukkah to everyone out there who is lighting candles trying to bring some light into the dark. Merry Christmas to everyone out there who is getting ready to celebrate Christmas, and particularly a happy, healthy and peaceful New Year.
I still believe in a place called hope.
Yes for the monotheist there is where I think somehow the Muslims and the Christians and the Jews can, will, and must be reconciled. This is a dumb way to live life, killing other people and stopping young people from reaching their potential. But we can't get through it without understanding where we've been and what's going on here. So I appreciate your show and what you're trying to do to tell people what's going on here.
That's our goal.
Happy to your folks.
That's it for this season.
I'll be back soon, but in the meantime, check out our archive of episodes and here's to health, happiness, and peace in twenty twenty four. You and Me Both is brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Abadeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lona Valmorro, and Lily Weber. Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and the original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like you
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