Older and Bolder (with Rep. Maxine Waters, Glenda Jackson and Sen. Mazie Hirono)

women of a certain age. You are in the public eye now, whether that means not holding back with your opinions, or saying no to the things you don't want to do, or the people who don't want to see, or saying yes to the things you've always wanted to do but either we're afraid to try, or didn't have time, you name it. These women are getting bolder as they get older.

And today we're going to hear from three such incredible man. Later, I'll be talking to my friends U S. Senator Mazie Herono from Hawaii and actor Glenda Jackson, who, between winning two Academy Awards and a Tony Award, and I think a couple of Emmy's as well, served in the British Parliament for twenty three years. But first I'm talking to the one and only Congresswoman Maxine Waters. I've been a big fan of Maxine Waters since I first learned about her,

and it's not hard to see why. Maxine has served as a Member of Congress for South Los Angeles for over thirty years, and over that time, she's earned a reputation as a stalwart champion for progressive values who speaks her mind and doesn't suffer fools. She emerged as one of the fiercest, most vocal critics of the last president aential administration, and she has never stopped fighting for what

she believes in. In fact, she became an Internet celebrity when she refused to let a certain former Secretary of the Treasury run out the clock during a hearing she was chairing. She sure did reclaim her time, and she's doing all of this at the age of eighty three now. Before going into politics, Maxine was active in community organizing the head Start program. She served on the board of the Miss Foundation. She's been a mentor and inspiration to

countless people over the years. I always get a kick out of talking with Maxine Waters, and I was so delighted she had time to be on the podcast. Hello Maxine Hello, how are you doing? Hell, Welcome to the show. And obviously we're going to talk about your long career in public service and politics. But before we get to that, I'd like our listeners to know more about where it all started. I know you grew up in St. Louis

in a pretty busy household. I think you were the fifth of thirteen children, right, yeah, I was, actually I think the boy. Well, I think that's where you must have figured out that you had a talent for organizing. How would you describe, you know, what you wanted to be when you were a little girl growing up in that big family in St. Louis, Hillary, As I think back on it, we were all made to be very

independent at a very early age. We had to be because my mother, who had so many, you know, children, certainly could not pay attention to all of us, and so we had to learn how to do for ourselves. But I also had wonderful school teachers and saying Lewis, I was an athlete. I ran track, I played volleyball, I played basketball, and I became a very good swimmer.

And this was all because the neighborhood. You got to do things at your your community center, but one of the stories that I've told often is this part of the time, we were unwelfare and the social workers would come to your home to review whether or not you were in compliance with the rules of you know, getting the benefits. And so they were always dressed very nicely. Uh. They had lots of authority. And I thought to myself, that's what I want to be. And um, I worked

when I was very young. When I was about thirteen, I had a job in a restaurant, Thompson's Restaurant, and it was not integrated, and I cleaned tables and we had to eat our food in the basement because they wouldn't allow you to eat, you know, in the restaurant. But that's what I used to buy my clothing to go back to school in September, and so I tried to dress well, you know, look good. Uh, And I earned the money to do pretty well with that. And

that's kind of generally you know, my background. You know, however, you put it together. You learned how to dress really well, Maxine. I mean that is one of the things that I have admired for many many years. You know, you really know how to put it together. So you went from admiring those social workers to thinking maybe about politics. Did becoming a congresswoman ever cross your mind? Politics began to

cross my mind early. I was chosen, uh to do speeches, you know, And I was taken once to a big event by a teacher in another city where I represented my school. Uh, And then I was encouraged to do speaking, and um, I began you know, to think about in high school various kinds of activities that provided leadership opportunities. And I think that's what led me to believe that perhaps I could do something of service. But it really didn't happen until I was married at a very young age,

and I got involved with the head Start program. The War on Hobby was a magnificent thing that happened in this country, and it created all of these programs. And Headstart was so attractive. It was going to offer to our little children and opportunity for early childhood education, which of course the average working family or poor families certainly could not afford. And I went to work for a head Start as an assistant teacher. But head Start was a real beginning for me. I too was learning, I

was learning a lot about myself. We had these interactive programs where the staffs dealt with each other, helping each other to understand what we cared about and basically what was our philosophy in life. And it was out of head Start that I really became me and I got involved with the community, started to volunteer in campaigns, learned how to you know, do everything from design brochures to raise a little money, to organize get out the boat efforts, whatever.

And that was what catapulted me into running for office. I love the connection between head Start and you getting a start. I really love that, Maxine. And then you ran for um a state assemblywoman position, right to be in the UH California Assembly, and that was I think nineteen seventy six. Is that about right? That's right? And you know you you got elected off you went to UH Sacramento. Um, what was that initial experience like for you showing up as a representative of your constituents in

the state capital. Well, you know, there were several things going on when I ran. It was really at the height of the women's movement. And so when I was in the Assembly, I went there without having had any formalized experience as a legislator. So I just tried a lot of things. The first thing I tried was this, and you're gonna laugh at this. We were all called assemblyman, and I thought were men and so and so I

decided I was going to change it. And so little did I know that the men really were absolutely insulting about the idea that this young woman was going to come in and change the way that people may be referred to. And so I got on the floor, I presented my bill, and they came after me. But did they come after me? And of course I lost, But later on coming behind me, some of the women were able to get it changed to assembly member based on what I started. Well, I mean, you have started a

lot throughout your entire history. You know, you're now one of the longest serving women in the House, and you have many more women colleagues than you had when you started, or that you had when you were back in state government in California. So how has the world of politics changed from your beginning work, and especially how has it changed for women's Well, uh, and it certainly has changed tremendously.

One of the things that happened to me was Bella Abzug and Gloria Steinham and these women I got connected to. We had a big conference uh in Houston, Texas, where we were going to help Jimmy Carter understand how he could include women in his administration and the kinds of things that we cared about. Well, the conference was fantastic, but Jimmy Carter didn't take too kindly to us, and he and Bella Abzug kind of you know, didn't hit it off too well, and so they fired Bella and

we all quit. And so we all quit. But of course I was asked to serve on the board of the MESS Foundation, and that was a tremendous experience. We had women who sent us unsolicited proposals. That's why I learned so much about what we could do about violence against women, what we could do about opening up opportunities

for women to see themselves in non traditional jobs. That's when I learned about women who were suffering not only from oftentimes you know, violence and but lack of basic resources. And so I took many of those unsolicited proposals while I was serving on the MISS Foundation board, and I tried to turn them into something real. As a legislator now in Sacramento, where I could basically be responsible for

changing public policy. And I want you to know that back then, of course I learned and knew a lot about discrimination, and I knew a lot about racism, but I didn't really to stand the depth of it because it had not been taught in our schools. Our parents never really talked about it. Every now and then you could get a story about some experience that they had had, uh their grandparents had had when there was a hanging somewhere in the South where they were, where there was

a burning. And then I got involved with a local group here who was getting involved with the civil rights movement in l A. It was a local in w t P and some ministers that I got involved with, and that's what got me more involved in the civil rights movement. That got you going, and you haven't stopped yet, which I loved about you. So eventually you decided to run for Congress. What year was that, Well, let me

tell you. Augustus Hawkins was the Congressman of the area and he had decided to retire, And when I decided I wanted to run and he was retiring, asked him to support me. Congressman Hawkins was legendary that's why he was one of the most effective members of Congress for his time. And the fact that he was an African American who ascended the ranks within the House of Representatives was incredibly impressive. And describe where your district is in

l A. Because it's a very important area. Yes, well, let me tell you. At that time the district was was different. Even though they had a substantial black population, we had smaller towns that were basically whited. And I can remember a few things about that campaign and how we decided to try and appeal to the whites in the district, and so even though we didn't get all of that support, we certainly did have enough of it in order to be successful in the way Gus Hawkins was,

but he had done a lot. That was a day when we had really more organized efforts that we have today. That we had a group of women, welfare rights women who were organized and they understood, you know, how to work with government and they understood how to be advocates. The women and that group were very inspiring to me. Also, they spoke up and they spoke out, and I could see them today just as clearly as if they were still with us. Most of them have passed on, John

and May Tillman, Mary Henry. These were strong women, and they not only were advocates and welfare rights. We had one woman who went to the school board regularly and if they did not pay attention to her, she would not leave. And she was advocating but the children and senior citizens, and even with housing. But these women, they opened the doors for a lot of opportunities, and they also made a real difference at the local, state and

federal level the changing laws and regulations. Well, I want a fast forward, Maxcine, because you know, right now it seems like a very difficult time in Congress, and we have seen sadly both the Voting Rights Bill and Build Back Better fail and every day House Republicans seem to be drifting further and further into extremism. How does this moment compare to others you've experienced over you know, your long and storied career. Hillary, It's a terrible time in

the Congress of the United States of America. I am so offended about what has happened and what is happening to us now. I am so outraged about the lack of respect for the Constitution, a lack of respect for this democracy, a lack of what it means to be a public servant working for the people. It is awful, you know, Maxine. Something has happened to the people that

you and I served with. Why are so few of the people actually in the Congress, both the House and the Senate willing to stand up and say we cannot go along with the big lie, the big steel, the storming of the capital on January six? Do you think we can ever get back to what should be the

norms of behavior and and working. Have to be a person of optimism, no matter what, because you know, the idea that we would have to in to tolerate something like a Trump, you know, in this country without bringing making him accountable for the harm that he has called

and continues calls, it is not something I can live with. So, yes, we're in this time, and we're in this space where people who are sitting in the House of Representatives for sure, who belonged to Q and An who supports the Proud Boys, the oath Keepers, and still the KKK right in the House. They're sitting there and they have demonstrated whom they are. But I think that you know, the people are seeing

this and wondering how could this be? And I think that the people's anger about this will reveal itself even as early in the two primaries. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. You know, you and I are women of a certain age, and I think it's pretty tremendous that you just keep going from strength to strength. I mean, do you feel any different? Do you feel like people treat you any differently? Now that you know you're older than you were when you first ran for office and

have served all these years. Yeah, there's more talk about age, and some of our younger people, you know, talk about age, et cetera. But I want to tell you, when I want you walk, you walk like this, shoulders up and you walk with pride and dignity. Now, young people want them to take a look at that, because we're women of age. We're mature women, we've matured, and we're not walking like this. We're we're not all that, We're not all sad and what that you and so just watch us,

young people, just watch us, and hope. Before we have to wrap up, I want to ask you for some advice. We've both been in and out of politics at the highest level. We've both been in campaigns. We're very familiar with all of the challenges and stereotypes facing women in leadership positions. What advice do you give to young women, even girls who want to know whether they should get into public life, you know, maybe even run for office. Well, I encourage those who are interested to do it, to

run for office. And then I talk about as much as I can what I think it takes uh to be a good elected official, and you know, examining the reason you want to do it. This is about where are you coming from philosophically, who are you? Have you come to grips with whom you are and what you really care about and having a philosophy about life. And then I think if you do, then you can do almost anything because you're not going to be pulled in

nine and nine different directions. You have a clarity of purpose and a clarity of understanding what you care about. So I talk a lot about getting in touch with itself. That is such great advice, Maxine. I mean, that's great advice for anybody thinking about doing anything. You know, to thine own self be true. But that requires you gotta know who yourself is and why you are doing what you're doing. I'll tell you, Maxine Waters, I am so grateful for our friendship all that we have been able

to experience together. And I'm so appreciative that you took your time out if you're incredibly busy schedule to be on this podcast, because I think your words are going to mean so much to so many. Well, thank you for inviting me. You know I've always loved and supported you, and I think you are perhaps one of the most ready leaders that ever approached running for president of the United States, and you should have been You should have

been elected. But whatever you want to do, I support you, and I want you to know that you and I have just begun to mature. We've got a lot left in us. Amen, Sister Amen, keep your eye on Congresswoman Maxine Waters, because she sure does have a lot left in her. Our next guest will be familiar to fans of great actors and members of parliament alike. Glenda Jackson

was born in Liverpool in nineteen thirty six. She began acting in her teens and by the nineteen seventies achieved the rare distinction of winning two Academy Awards for Best Actress, not to mention two Emmy Awards for her iconic portrayal of Queen Elizabeth on television. In nine seventy eight, Glenda was bestowed with the highest honor in the United Kingdom for contributions to the Arts and Sciences, the Most Excellent

Order of the British Empire. But then in too she took an abrupt break from acting to actually run for a seat in Parliament, and she was elected to the House of Commons as a member of the Labor Party and stayed in office for the next twenty three years. Now at that point, after conquering the heights of two no different fields, they have some connections. What do they say, you know, being in politics in Washington is uh, you know, theater for ugly people. I don't know, something like that.

Most people would welcome the chance to head into retirement, but not Glenda. Instead, she decided to return to the stage. Now, just a few years ago, before the pandemic, I had the immense pleasure of seeing her on Broadway in two remarkable performances in Three Tall Women, for which she won a Tony and and in the title role in Shakespeare's King Lear which she took on at the tender age of eighty two. I cannot tell you how thrilled I was when she agreed to speak with me for this podcast. Well,

thank you so much for doing this. I'm thrilled to be talking to you. Well, it's a privilege to see you and to be able to speak to you. You know, I was thinking back, um, when preparing to talk with you, to the first time I knew of you, which was when I saw Women in Love. Well, those years ago. I just just graduated from college. I had read the book. I really was interested in going to the movie and just adored it good and yeah, and so you have been someone kind of in my consciousness for a very

long time. But I know that you really had done so much before that before you won an Academy Award for that, and then you want another one a few years later for a touch of class. How did you decide that you wanted to become an actor? How do you make that decision? A friend of mine was a member of a local amateur dramatic society. I had left school, I was working in a local chemist shop. I felt there was more to life than I was experiencing. That

possibly I may have had more to contribute. And someone said to me, you should go to a drama school, and I thought, well, okay, I'll try. So I did an audition for the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art for a scholarship, and they wrote back and said, if we'd had a scholarship, you would have got it, but we haven't, so you haven't. And fortunately the manager of my chemist

shop wrote to my local authority. This was in the days when local authorities actually had the money to afford the kind of tunities felt all of us, and they gave me the scholarship. And so there I was at drama school. And and did you feel when you got to the Royal Academy that you belonged there or were you feeling a little bit awkward about whether this was right for you? No? No, I didn't feel that because it was a very varied intake of other students as well,

from all over the country. And what year was that, Glenda? That must have been about sixty years ago. I mean I was nineteen, so more than that, because I'm older now, well we both are. What was your big break? So you go to drama school, A lot of people go to drama schools. Oh, yes, I had. I had years of unemployment. I don't think there's a job that I can't do, because I take any kind of job to to earn a living. I suppose the really big break

was Women in Love. Um, I mean, I've done quite a bit of fear to work, but it was I think that film that was a big breakthrough. So you do your first major film and you get nominated for an Academy Award. What was that experience like when that came out, I was doing another film and I thought of didn't regard it as being central to my life.

It never occurred to me that i'd get one. So when it did happen, I look back on it now and it was quite extraordinary because I was a great disappointment to all the kind of journalists because I didn't look the way they thought people who were nominated should look. You know what I mean. I don't know what to Yes, you know what I mean. But then you did it again. It was almost like, Okay, you don't think I am

here we go again? We did, like four or five years later, you get out of the Academy Award for Best Actress. Well, Apparently a lot of audiences and others were very receptive because you've gone on to this this extraordinary career. Well you've had several careers. But indeed, I imagine that being an actor has changed a lot over the years. I mean, do you do you feel that or I think fundamentally it stays the same. But what

has changed is what actors are asked to do. And there has been variable standards from excellence to pathetically dreadful that actors are asked to participate in. And it is still a hugely overcrowded profession, and certainly women are still second, if you know what I mean. I mean, the majority of of drama still has women as mere adjuncts or victims.

They rarely have ever the central driving dramatic engine, and that I find quite bizarre, certainly given that it is contemporary writers who still go ahead with that, to my mind, some ot old fashioned view of our gender. Yeah. Well, you made an incredibly dramatic decision when you decided to go into politics. How did you make that decision? Glenda? Because I couldn't bear what was happening to my country.

I'd always been politically interested, and I had always voted and things like that, and I just could not believe the direction in which the then Prime minister was driving my country. And Margaret Thatcher was the prime minister you were reacting to, she was indeed, yeah, yeah, it was just incredible. I mean, the things that I saw under that prime ministership, schools where there were virtually no libraries anymore. I mean, the kind of lack of concern for everybody

was something that I just found intolerable. And I had worked for members of the Labor Party and I had campaigned for them and things like that, and a few constituencies had suggested to me that I stand myself, and eventually I thought, okay, I'll have a go. I never expected to actually win the seat, but I did, and there I was for the next twenty three years of

my life, starting in what is that right? Yes, So when you were elected, much to your surprise, what did you bring from your acting career to your political career. I was not, I thought, afraid of standing up in the House of Commons and making a speech until they actually had to stand up and make a speech, and

it all of suddenly crumbled around. But I was very clear in what I disliked what I held in some ways to be almost sacred about what I've worted my country to be and how I felt we should treat one another. And it was very interesting from one aspect, because everybody seemed to me already in Parliament expected me to behave like some mad diva and demand, you know, a central position and the best seat and all that kind of stuff. That's not how the theater works, which

is essentially you know, teamwork. I mean, you have to work with other people. Um, And so that came as a bit of a shock. But after a while that all sort of calmed down and I was acknowledged as being just another MP. Yeah, well I had the same experience when I was elected to the Senate. Yes, well there is a difference between being married to the President of the United States. Well that that was my theater

experience for sure. And so when I was when I was elected and showed up, a very experienced senator said to me, well, the question is will you be a show horse or a workhorse? And I said, I've always been a workhorse, and put my head down, get to work, try to you know, make a difference, And and it did over time. Slowly change the opinion too, maybe even the apprehension that I would be more of a show horse.

But when you're in that position, as you were in Parliament, as I was in the United States Senate, it's fascinating because it is a form of theater. Absolutely absolutely, Nonetheless, that experience was very eye opening for me. The thing I find most bewildering in a sense is that we are expected to be perfect. We're not expected to be human. We expect it to be perfect and to fail consistently,

and that I just find very bizarre. You know, And if you're a woman, the do standard is alive and well, isn't it. Absolutely absolutely where everybody seems to be far more concerned about what you're wearing and how you're looking then what you're saying or what you're thinking or doing.

Oh yeah, I've been there, done that. But what's so fascinating to me is that, you know, after twenty three years in parliament, so you were consistently reelected by your constituents, you were tired, and you were tired shortly before your seventy ninth birthday. And look, many people would have begun a very well deserved retirement. Glenda but that's not what you did. You decided to return to acting. How did

you decide that? Well, honestly, it was quite fortuitous. I mean, I've done some stuff for the BBC Radio and then I was asked to do a play and someone suggested how to do later and I thought, you don't get this kind of off phone every day of the week. I have to do this, and I did, and it was really fascinating to me because I've been away, you know, from a theater as a workplace for us use more

than twenty years. And the cast of Leave was in the main young and a lot of the young people in that had worked consistently having left drama school, but had never worked on the stage professionally. But for me, it was a comfortable place to be. For them, they had to learn that kind of comfort and that was quite revelatory. But to be actually back on the stage and to have a live audience in front of you was just extraordinary. We'll be back right after this quick break.

So when you know a word came out that you were literally returning to the stage and doing lear, I was so excited. I don't know the history, Glenda, how many women, if any have played Lear in a in a major theatrical production. I can only, off the top of my head think of two. I mean, there would be two English actors I can remember doing it. But

that kind of gender barrier essentially has gone. I mean, more and more actresses actually do take on nine times after ten it Shakespeare, because that's the kind of big thing. But it in a curious kind of way, my gender didn't influence what I was doing. I mean, as far as trying to do the play, trying to find that character, playing that character, the gender thing was never central. Well, that's the way it felt. I mean, watching you again

inhabit that character, a very well known character. I never I thought when I was watching you that it didn't fit. I felt like it was an integrated performance, that it was you as an actor, not you as a woman actor, if that makes any sense. Absolutely, and I mean that was very central to to my thinking. And the character of Leary is someone who's never had anybody say no to them in their entire life, and that was the kind of thing that I worked on. The gender was

utterly irrelevant. How did you memorize all those lines with it a different process than than when you had been acting twenty years before. No, I mean, I thank god, and you know, fingers crossed. I've never had any great difficulty in learning the lines. What I've always found amazing is sort of two days after the last performance, I can't remember relate to that, you know, sometimes I do.

Sometimes I'll make a speech, or I'll be in a you know, spontaneous back and forth, and I'll say something and somebody will come up to me a couple of days later and said, oh, that was so amazing, or I really agreed with you, or I didn't agree with you, and I cannot remember what did I say. I have to go back and look. But I think it's partly

self protective. I mean, you get into something in the moment or in your case and performance after a performance, but when it's done, you almost do have to let it go. I mean you need that, you need absolutely absolutely. People always say to me, you know, how was the first performance? And every performance is the first performance, because that's alreadience hasn't been there before. You know, it exists when you do it right, you know what I mean?

Every time it's like the first Well, yes, you must know that. Yeah, I mean, you've you've had it even harsher than any actors have it well. But but there is a comparison to what you just said in politics, like when you are running for office or when you are out with your constituents and your voters. You know, for you, it might be the fifth time you've spoken that day. For them, it's the first time they've seen you. So it is a performance, not in a negative way

as some people try to portray it. But you have to get up for it. You have to be on your best. You have to convey, you know, the energy and the enthusiasm and the you have to connect and you have to connect. You have to figure out ways to do that. You know, you, you and I have been in the public eye, um. You in two different professions, um, and it's been I think for both of us, both

rewarding and challenging, very much so. And you know, in the course of our lives, we've seen progress for women in public life, but we've also seen some, you know, very stubborn hurdles related to aging and gender. Absolutely. So, when you look back on your career, both in acting and in politics, what has changed for the better in the public perception of women and what still needs to change. Well,

there are more. If I simply look at Parliament now, there are more women sitting on those green benches than they're where when I first sat on them. And there are women who are in actual professions and jobs and things which a few years ago would not have been considered.

But there is still this huge, huge lack in actually listening to what women have to say in many occasions, and there is still this belief that, you know, choice has to be made as to who has something, then the male need of those that are going to be accommodated first. And that's just crazy. It's crazy because you look at who is actually doing the work nine times after a tenant's probably a woman. Well that that is

for sure from my experience. And you know, the other thing that I find fascinating is how men are allowed to age and women are subjected to so much criticism about getting old in front of us. Now both you and I have aged in front of the world, and personally, I'm glad I get up every morning. I want to I want to keep aging for as long as I can. But it is it is another one of these, as

you rightly say, bizarre double standards. That men become more distinguished, you know, they get with age viewed as more professional and more experienced. And you know, women, especially now in the world of social media, are diminished, are rejected, are really criticized and even ridiculed for literally aging in public. Absolutely, absolutely, And this is utterly bizarre because you know today wouldn't exist, wasn't the work that women put into it, whether they're

paid for it or not. Well, so, how have you dealt with it? Like, what would you say to women of a certain age, older women like ourselves, who are encountering this age discrimination, who are feeling diminished, that people are shocked that they still have something to say and contribute. Would you tell them just to ignore it, go full speed ahead? Would you tell them to respond? How would

you tell them to handle that? Well? I would think they would be so experienced, having had that treatment all their lives, that they would be able to accommodate it. But yeah, I mean, I'm I'm beginning to get to the stage. I happn't had that up to now, but I can feel it coming of what the hell If this is the way you're going to treat me, this is how I'm going to react? What the hell? Oh man, I want to see somebody write a role for you to play that Glenda. That would be good. I for

one anxiously await whatever is next for you. I mean, I hope I get to see you on the stage again, or I hope I get to see you in some kind of you know whatever, streaming or movie or but that's most kind of you. Thank you. I hope to see you doing what you do so immacuately. We have to keep supporting one another women of a certain age. I love it. We certainly do. We certainly do. I'm sure we'll be seeing Glenda back on the stage or

the screen soon. But in the meantime, why don't you try to track down a copy of Women in Love or any number her of her amazing performances from over the years. In Time magazine ran an article with the title, Mazie hron No is the only immigrant in the Senate. She's ready to take on Trump, and boy was she ever. Mazie spoke out against family separation in defense of the Affordable Care Act and doggedly questioned Trump's Supreme Court nominees.

Mazie is an immigrant. She was born in Japan, but her mother grew up in Hawaii, went back to Japan, and then escaped an abusive marriage to bring Mazie and her brother back to Hawaii when Mazie was just seven years old. Mazie writes about those difficult years when the family struggled to get a foothold in this country, and then about her remarkable journey to the United States Senate in a mem war I really loved, called Heart of Fire.

It came out last year during the pandemic. With the rise of violence and harassment against Asian Americans, Maizie has been a vocal advocate for anti hate crime legislation. Indeed, she's never stopped speaking her mind and fighting for the people who need a champion. She's done all of this in recent years while battling kidney cancer. Fortunately, she's in good health now, and I was thrilled to catch up with her, especially after reading her amazing book, What Inspired

You to Put Pen to Paper. My mother, of course, and my husband had been encouraging me to write a memoir, but I guess saying no, no, no, But my mother has at that point suffered to strokes. She was not able to communicate anymore, and I if ever, I'm going to do it where I might be able to still talk to her about it. This was that, although I couldn't talked to her anyway, but truly I wanted to finish the book before she passed. I know you lost her in April, and I want to not only extend

my deepest condolences, but to really celebrate her. What an extraordinary human being your mother was. She kind of reminds me of your mother, Hilary. I felt the same way, amazing that kind of work ethics, and her instinctiveness, courage and perseverance and everything else, you know, your mother's struggles to raise you and your brother on her own during

your first years in Hawaii. I did think often, page after page about my own mother and her struggles and the you know, the courage it took for women of that era to really find their way against so many odds. She literally changed my life by making that courageous decision. And that's why one of my life lessons is one person could make a difference, because she changed my life

by bringing me to this country. Can you share some of your memories that you tell so beautifully in the book about you know, those early years as you remember them. My mother never complained, she never talked badly about my father, but I know that for her to have left Japan and put that many miles and into our ocean between him, his family and us, I knew that it was a

horrible situation and so much courage. Yes, the life was pretty basic with Mom, And when I think about how we struggled economically, what a difference it would have made if the child care tax credits a month, even for each child wouldn't made the world of difference because we would run out of money by the end of the month. And we we're living pretty simply, I can tell you in one room boarding house and all that, and our food was very simple. It would it would have made

so much difference. That's why such a personal level, I know what three hundred dollars up to three hundred dollars per child can mean to a family that's just doing their very best. I agree with you completely, And of course you've gone on to change lives to now. Well, it's it's her heart of fire that got passed out

to me. I I hope, and I do think about my mom a lot, and her absences is a huge thing for me, even if the last two years of her life she was living in a care facility, which is yet another issue that so many of us share, the need for our aging population for caregivers and the pittance we pay them. There's just so much about what we're going through that is so relevant to my lived experience, and it just as that much fervor to what I get to fight for. It gets you up every morning,

doesn't it. I mean, that's that's what is so motivating. People often ask me. I'm sure they ask you. I mean, how can you take politics public service? It seems so hard, it seems dirty, it seems just impossible. But when those moments happen that you make a difference, isn't it the best feeling? You really do feel like I am helping somebody. I am making it, you know, possible for others to have a better life. And that's what I say to

my staff. People in our country are getting screwed every second, minute, and hour of the day, and if we can decrease that number, we will be making a difference. We'll be doing our jobs, and that is the thing that should keep us going. But yes, there are time sillery when what I do sucks. You just have to get up and literally every morning, every I get out of bed by saying and at the same sort of thing, upward and onward, get out of that. You know, your mother

thankfully lived to be ninety six. That's pretty extraordinary. Gloria Steinham once pointed out, contrary to the stereotype of sweet, soft spoken grandmother's, many women only become more forceful in their worldview as they age. And you know, you think about it, I mean, you've got nothing left to lose. Just let it rip, girl, Let it rip. That's what

I say. If you don't mind, Harry, I wish you could have let a rip more when you were running against you know who, because that was such a bizarre campaign. How did you even know how to act with that? Was this behavior? You know? I mean, it was such a dilemma every day because the sort of stereotype of the angry woman. And even though we don't we don't feel like gray really feel like we're telling the truth. We're trying to stand up against you know, absurd and

mean spirited things. You know, it's such a balance beam and the benefit of you know, you're being able to do that now and I'm so grateful you are. It's the people of Hawaii, your state. They know you, you know, they know you, and they have come not only to you respect, but to love you. And you've been in public life for such a long time. That's the way I felt when I was a senator from New York.

But when you get on the big national stage with the electoral College, and like you know, one thousand votes here makes a huge difference. It's a really tough calculation. Truly, those gender stereotypes are very much alive. And well when people you would write, oh, she's finally meeting me, finally found her voice, first of all, it made me really piste up. But then I said, wait a minute. I've always had a voice. We've always had a voice. We just we need to use it more in ways that

that are truthful and authentic and real. And so I'm so glad that I'm at the point where somebody like Trump evoked the usage of my voice to a really large extent. And if it is very free, it is to be more my complete self, because now I use my head, my heart, and my voice. Yes, well, that's what one of the aspects of your memoir that I found personally so interesting because you can see you gaining that voice and frankly, the willingness to stand up to

the men around you in your life in politics. Um, you've spent now more than five decades in public office. Don't remind me no, but but you know, there were instances in those early years in your political career when the men around you meant, frankly, you had helped get elected, we're actively discouraging you from running for office. But you sometimes would sort of exceed, and then you started getting upset, and then you started standing up, and then you kept going.

And it's a fascinating, very candid depiction of that, Mazie. And also, as I was experienced saying this, it was a as though I thought, oh, these guys are exhibiting their gender biases. It took me a long time to especially writing the book, is when I realized, over the time of my life and politics, how often the men would say, it's not your turn, and you haven't done enough,

what's your record, etcetera. And you know a lot of times women we think that it's our fault that we're not good positioning, we're not positioning ourselves or whatever it is. And and I'm realized, sure, there could have been things

that I could have done better, etcetera, etcetera. But when I think about the gender issues that that that have more impact I think on my political life, especially in a place like Hawaii, which is very diverse culturally, and so I didn't have so many of those racial kind of issues that we're much more prevalent on the mainland

against people like me. We'll be right back. When you got to the Senate, did you feel that the culture shifted, that you were accepted as one of a hundred or were there still, you know, these challenges that you kept confronting. I think so because there are these notions that people have about someone who's Asian. We're very cooperative, demure, reserved, and to the extent that I wasn't as noisy as

vocal as I am now. I think the some of my female colleagues had those notions, I would say, And so I think it's a recognition that I have and also to realize that as an Asian person, we are not much heard from and our voices are so much more evident because of the rise and hate crimes against Asian American specific islanders during COVID, and I've never seen

so many Asian voices and faces on news. And then during this time, well, and you you were one of the really strong leaders in uh, you know, the combating of the hate crimes and violence against Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, and you were the lead sponsor and the Senate of important legislation about hate crimes. Yes, I've gotten feedback from a number of people who say, thank you. You know, we once you start speaking out, you can't

go back. And you ask, Well, some of my male colleagues they've never had to deal with an Asian woman who was a senator and the first and so somewhat unusual for them. And because I'm very outspoken and I actually have been known to swear, and some of them and it's just they really don't know how to respond, which is fine with me. Have you found as um,

you know, you've gotten older. Um, we're the same age that you feel, you know, freer to be more outspoken with your colleagues, with the media obviously, anybody who you think deserves to be confronted. Yes, I do. I don't know whether it is the life experience process. I know for a fact that Trump and all the horrors that he unleashed, uh, and the daily attacks on the body politics. That has something to do with my speaking up against

the biggest bully of them all, and also Hillary. I think it it is also my health diagnosis, and that that's something else that does make you realize life is short. You better get on with things. I know, I know, I remember when I heard about it, and of course I was concerned, like everyone who knows and admires you, uh, and you called me thank you. Well, I I was thinking about you and wanted to add my best wishes,

and you just kept going. I mean you, you were indefatigable, and anybody who thought that it would slow you up was sadly mistaken, as we all could see firsthand. So, Mayzie, if you were speaking to younger women or even your younger self, what would you tell them about what's the best and the worst thing about aging? Well, you know,

considering the alternative to answering what the hell right? So I think that it took me a lot longer to become more fully myself by using my voice as well as my head and heart, And so I would encourage young women to truly be true to yourself, ourselves and that's easier said than done. But don't be afraid. That doesn't mean that we're just going to be running around with you know, being angry and all that. But be very focused on what we're doing. But to trust yourself.

That's wonderful advice. I'm still working on it, by the way we are. I agree with you completely that that is the other thing I would say is you know that the journey doesn't end at some specific age. It's a learning process. You do get better, but you know it's never never a goal that you will achieve. You have to keep never done. It's never done. You have to keep working at it, and we will in great

measure thanks to leaders like yourself, Mazie. I mean, I am so grateful to you for the leadership you're showing and the strength of your conviction and yes, the very powerful voice that you bring to all of these matters. Thank you so much for that. It means a lot, surely coming from you, Hillary, and you are another trailblazer,

so you Senator. Mazie Heron's memoir Heart of Fire, an immigrant daughter's story comes out in paperback this April, and if you've enjoyed my conversations with these older and bolder women. You will love my conversations with Distance Swimmer, Diana and Naiad and with the one and only Gloria Steinhum both from season one of You and Me. Both You and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio.

We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow and Benita Zaman. Our engineer is Zack McNeice and original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, please tell someone else about it. And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week, when will definitely be older and hopefully bolder too. M