Huma and Hillary

conversations with people I know and admire. And I can't think of a better guest to start off this new season with than someone I've known for more than twenty five years, whom Aberdeen, whom and I first met back in six when I was First Lady and she was an intern assigned to the office of the First Lady.

We've worked together ever since, at the White House, in the Senate, at the State Department, traveling the world and criss crossing our country, and a couple of campaign means, and boy have we been through some incredible times together. But Huma has her own story to tell, which she does so beautifully in her new memoir called Both and A Life in Many Worlds. It's been on all kinds of best books lists, and I am delighted to get to talk to her about her life and about the

memoir she wrote all about it. So welcome to this podcast, Tuma. I have not been as excited for any other interview recently as I have been to have a conversation with you, because I feel as though the reason this book exists is in large part because of you. So I'm looking forward to talking to you about him. You know, I

want to start where you start. Obviously, so many of the interviews have focused on your time in the White House and serving in the Senate with me, and being in the Secretary of State to office at the State Department and everything else. But I want our listeners to learn more about your childhood. Just give us a little bit of an overview, because clearly your family is at the center of this story, and I want people to

know a little bit more about them too. So I did choose to start my story with my family history because I think this is actually something you and I have in common, is we are both curious about other people, other cultures, other languages, why people are compelled to do certain things or make certain decisions. And for me, ever since I was a little girl. I loved reading stories. I was brought up in a house with two academics who furnished our entire inner lives with books stories. We

would stage these theater shows for our parents. We loved My parents love the theater, and so we'd have performances. And so my brother was always the hero. My older sister had Deal was always like Princess Leiah, and I was always like Chewbacca or like the bad guy who gets killed every single time. So when you ask, and my little sister, Hibo came four years later, he was like this dainty rose and the baby in the family. You know, she always got to play the precious little princess.

So that's the role I played. I was the you know, the typical middle child. I was raised in Saudi Arabia, as you know, born in Kalamazoo, Michigan immigrant parents. And I've been thinking about this a lot over the last weeks because as I do these interviews, I tell people all the people who asked me, why did you write this book? And I say, to some degree, it's a love letter to my father, who died when I was seventeen.

But he was essentially terminally ill for just about my entire life, and we didn't know that it was a diagnosis. He was diagnosed with renal failure when I was two. We were living in Kalamazoo, Michigan. And it's you know, one of the first lines I wrote when I was writing this book, which is my father was told he was dying, and so he went out and he lived. And he was my age. He was forty six when

he got that diagnosis. I was to My older sister was four and my brother was not even ten, and you know, collected their kids and we moved to Saudi Arabia um two months later. And I think my father, not knowing how much time he had left, decided that he was everything he wanted to do on his bucket list he was going to do. He starts the Thought Institute that explored a Muslim minority conditions around the world

and took us everywhere. And I think that gift of being curious and respectful, because really the way he raised us was the only way we were all going to live in peace together this world. The globe was for everyone to come to the table as equals. And I really think that grounding landed me in that White House at twenty one as an intern for you, and it

was an environment that was basically driven inspired. That is how you and President Clinton were, the values, the causes, the missions, and it's I think one of the reasons that it's been hard impossible to leave you. I think I'm going to be in some way of service to you until I die, because I mean, I mean not to be like dramatic, but I just think it's that it's that connection. Well, but I listened to your story. Obviously, I've had the great delight of getting to know your mom.

I wish I could have met your dad, but I feel like I have a real sense of him from what you've said and certainly the way that you so lovingly portray him in the book. But the upbringing they gave you is something that so equipped you for the work that you started to do when you were twenty one. So I think that you became, in wonderful ways the product of their values and their understanding of what is

a life well lived. And one of my favorite memories is going to the college in Jetta in Saudi Arabia where you grew up that your mother helped us start, and that she was still helping to run when I was Secretary of State, and we went to this school together to really see and be part of your mother's lifelong work. And I really admire your mother was on the front lines of women's rights. She was, you know, involved in the preparation for the Beijing conference where I spoke.

Can you tell us a little bit about the role that she played also in your life? Certainly in our household, education was a religion. My parents told us ever since I have conscious memories, you can do anything you want. We don't care. All we require is that you be educated and to really, you know, push myself to learn and grow and experience and to be fearless. And I think, I really um I give that credit to my father,

but also to my mother. She was a refugee, had to leave her home in India after the partition and fled to Pakistan. They didn't want to She was living in Bombay. They had this dream life and then one morning everything changed and moost America. She gets a Fulbright scholarship, goes to the University of Pennsylvania, meets my father, doesn't return to Pakistan to marry the man she was promised to meets my father, they get married, and then moves

to this country. Really, what she did for my father, he was the one sort of driving this train and she was really along for the ride. But that moment, that very first moment, she said, the first year she lived there, she would look out the window and every time she saw on airplane, she would dream that she was on that airplane. And instead of just sort of wallowing or being sort of angry and resentful about it,

she did the opposite. She walked into that university. She was working at the first English language university in jed Death the time. She was a sociologist. She just immersed herself in the culture, in the environment. She taught herself Arabic. So even though my father, you know, was kind of a hero in our family, my mother is WHENO made it all happen. She's the one who would bake brownies when we had a bake cell the next morning. She's

the one who sewed our clothes. And when my father was sick, she's the one who essentially aided and abetted the illusion that he was healthy even though he was sick, And she was the one taking him to the hospital in the the middle of the night. She was the one cleaning up after him and sort of propping him up and allowing him to be this invincible father, and we were able to live kind of really these carefree childhoods.

So when you came to college, eventually to George Washington University in Washington, d c. You ben back and forth to the United States, but it was shortly after your dad had died, and as you beautifully portray in the book, that was a devastating event for you and for your family. What was that transition like from finishing, you know, high school in Saudi Arabia and then losing your dad and then packing up and moving to the US to gw

for college. I was in such shock. In fact, the first conversation I had with my mother after my father's funeral was that I wasn't going to go to university, that I was going to stay in Saudi Arabia and help run my father's institute. And my mother tells me, your father would have wanted you to go to school

in the end, it is your choice. Shortly before he had passed away, before he had gotten sick, my father told me, um, the biggest challenge I was gonna have moving to United States and living there for the first time. For university. He called it, actually it was going to be a revolution, and then it was going to be a cultural revolution that you know, I had grown up really in a in a society and environment where you know, we had this very supportive community. It's called the oh

Math ever present community in Islam. That's just the community we lived in. There was always somebody there to help, to support, to be there for you. You never had a sense of loneliness or isolation. So to walk into the George Washington University campus really less than two months after I lost my father, you know, being an environment that was entirely foreign to me, and I really did struggle with that. And the way I dealt with it

was I threw myself into everything. I joined every student association, every cultural club. I kept very, very busy, and I studied everything. I mean, I wanted to be a journalist, I wanted to be Christian. I'm on poor She'd been my model. But I studied political science and I took philosophy and creative writing in theater just to see what

else I would love. And I think it's one of the best things I did well then let's fast forward a little bit, because you end up applying for and being accepted as an intern in the White House, and lucky for me, being assigned to the First Lady's Office, and give us a bit of an impression about going to work in the White House, being assigned to the First Lady's Office, meeting me for the listeners kind of paint the picture that you do so well in your book.

I always felt people. I think it was a combination of fate, luck, and hard work that landed me in that office. Because I had a friend at university who was interning from Mike McCurry, who was then the White House Press Secretary, And since I had intended to become Christian Alman Poor, I thought the only way the best way to do that was to get an internship in the same office. But I was assigned to the First Lady's Policy Office, and that was Milan Ververe your who's

then your deputy chief of staff for policy. And I remember stepping on into the hallway and calling my mother from those old brick cell phones and saying, Mom, how am I going to be Christian? I'm on poor, If I'm in the First Lady's Policy office and not in the press office. And my mother said, you know, sometimes plan A doesn't work out, but plan B works out pretty well. And boy did it ever because going into Milan's office, my job as an intern, my first day

in September was to respond to policy correspondence. And these were all the issues First Lady Hillary Clinton a selection of issues that she was working on, and I remember being stunned opening one folder and it was letters about you were advocating for female genital mutilation it becoming illegal for it to be practiced in this country, which it wasn't illegal at the time. I looked at all these other, you know, documents early childhood development and healthcare and women's

rights all over the world. I mean, it just spanned so many really important substantive issues and I've I remember being hooked almost from day one to the work to the information. It was so interesting and it felt so important. Uh, this notion of you know, serving people and helping people around the world. And you know, when you're an intern in the White House, the President and First Lady are essentially these mythological figures. You know, you don't see or

hear from them personally very often. So the first time I actually met you was re election night November. The d n C had charted some planes for staff to go down, and they'd offered interns an opportunity to buy seat on that plane, and a group of interns went down, and I remember walking around that lawn um as we were gathering looking at the jumbo tron as the states were called for President Clinton. I mean, it was politics on steroids. I just remember feeling electrified. It just felt,

you know, so exciting to be there. And after the election was called, you both came down with the gores and and worked a rope line. And I remember I was pretty far back in the crowd, and I remember pushing my way through and reaching my hand over the shoulders of others, and I will never forget this moment. You reached out through the crowd and you shook my hand. You looked right at me and you said, thank you. You have no idea was an enter in your office.

And I will forever remember that moment, and that experience that I had is something that has stayed with me. As you've met people around the world, as you've been at these events and done rope lines, and people would say, oh, please, please one more handshake. I would always try to say, come on this side, shake that person's hand, because that was you, that was your own experience. I still remember my own sending. What that means. It isn't once in a lifetime for many people, and for me, I had

the privilege of that being just the beginning. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. Well, you did such an excellent job in my office, and you know, you just developed a real reputation as a go to person, and you know, we've had some amazing experiences all of these years. Is there a favorite trip that we've taken together that pops immediately to the front of your brain when you think back. That is going to be very,

very difficult. So my first couple sort of stay in my mind because I had no idea what I was doing, and you were so patient with me. I remember the first day they threw me in because the attitude a little bit in our office was a little bit of sink or swim, let's see if she can do it and uh, And as you well know, I had a hard time finding my voice. I whispered, you did not speak up. I didn't I did I did not speak up.

But Um, when you were in the White House, I remember UM staffing you on a trip to the Hague, and as you were flying over, we got news that King Hussein if Jordan had passed away, and you were very close to you and the President were very close to King Hussein and Queen Nora, and for me, as a girl growing up in Saudi Arabia, he was sort of this larger than live champion of peace. And I

remember you've landed in the Hague. We did a few events and as you were leaving, you told me to get on the plane and I went to that funeral and you introduced me to Queen Nora, and this, I mean, it was such a big moment for me just you know, personally, it meant so much to be included. Um. And then the trip to Israel, the fairy first trip to Israel

in December I made, and you were advancing. I was advancing, And I think it's important for listeners to understand what that means because people who work for those of us in public life, for politics often are going to so many different places and you need to send people ahead to you know, really nail down the schedule to do the walk throughs to figure out what's going to happen, and of course, in my case, coordinate with the Secret Service and everything that's going on. So here you are,

this Muslim American having grown up in Saudi Arabia. You're sent to Israel to help advance the trip that Bill and I, the President and I are going to take. There is a moment in your book that ranks so true to me, when you've been working closely with the advanced team from the Israeli government and you're at a meal with them. Describe that, because I found that to

be so poignant. I grew up in a in a country where you know, certainly I did not know any Jews, and then you know you Israel was very much the other I mean, and this is in the eighties and pasting into Fatto was underway. And so even though I grew up in a house where my father says, you have to explore the other, understand, you know, I didn't. I didn't. I just thought there was a different way

of thinking or existence. I didn't know what I expected. Actually, So to land in Jerusalem and we stayed at the Jerusalem Hilton that very first trip, and to stand on my balcony, and to look out at the Old City and see, you know, the most important holy place for Jews um, you know, the whaling Wall of Temple Mount. To see one of the most important, you know, significant

sights for for Muslims, the Dome of the Rock. And then to know this is where Jesus Christ took his final steps on the Via della Rosa, somebody of faith of you know, one of the monotheistic faiths. To just stare at this space and they had all happened right here. It was such an overwhelming experience. And not only that I was there on behalf of an administration whose entire motivation was to figure out how to get everyone to

live and work together. And then at the end of this week going to lunch, and everybody else on the delegation aside from me who had traveled from the White House, were American Jews. I mean, it was obviously, you know, everybody wanted to go, including me, and so I it was funny because all of the name plates were names like Shamir and stein and Rosenthal and Steinberg, and then

Aberdeen was the last one. At the last meal we had with the Israeli Foreign Ministry, We're sipping our mint tea and the delegation official leans over to me and says, you know, we really like this American delegation, but you're our favorite because you're the most like us. Isn't that amazing? And I remember sitting there thinking, yes, he's right. I have this cultural connection. I know the food, I understand

the language. You know. It was such a moment. I found a letter I wrote to my mother on hotel letter had saying this trip has changed me for or changed my life. It was so meaningful. And then I mean, gosh, we went to Iceland and we bought boots together. That was a fun trip on that heated side. While he went to Florence towards the end of the White House, you were there for a Third Way conference. I remember, Oh my god, you got a black coat. We we just had so much dancing in Morocco. Oh my gosh

at the Memmonia Hotel. I mean, there were so many great meals. Oh my god. We ate around the world and we continue to eat our way around the world. Boy, you have fed me very well. I have to thank you for that. Or the Saudia do you remember do you remember the meal with the Saudi in his tent, that tent in the desert a palace. It was the biggest tent I had ever seen. It was when I was Secretary of State and we were meeting with then King Abdolah and he had all of his UH top officials.

I had my traveling party, plus the press, and they laid out a meal for us in another part of the tent. That was the biggest buffet I've ever seen. It went around three sides of that big tent. Remember, it was unbelievable, and they kept you know, you would take a little bit, they don't. What's more, what's none of us. It occurred to none of us to brief

you properly. This is actually my failure. You and the king are walking along this buffet, and you had this man with a tray behind you, and it had one plate with empty spoons and then one empty plate for the dirty spoons. And as you walk down the buffet, you were meant to sample and then discard the spoon and then tell the other gentleman I would like this, and I would like that. And then you get to the end. Then you sit down and they start bringing

you plates and plates. The foods you had sampled, and you're like, no, I'm already full because you had basically eaten at the buffet. And then I bring you your cards over that you're supposed to, you know, raise with his majesty, And as you're about to raise these points, a TV screen come up from the middle of the table and the soccer match. It was a soccer match, so that nobody could overhear us. Right, that was a strategy conversation. We'll be right back. So you probably know

better than anybody. What would people be most surprised about traveling with me. I think the fact that I still can't get over this. How you can like be getting ready for a really big bilateral meeting or speech and we're flying somewhere and then you just fall asleep in the chair next to me, like when you were secretaries, and it was like unbelievable, and then you wake up

you're like, Okay, I'm good, you know. I think maybe the big secret that nobody knows is that everyone says you're so well prepared, you're so briefed, and I don't really I don't know. I think you you're either a speed reader or you digest information. You just know a lot of stuff because on those plane rides we spend a lot of time eating lack and joking, teasing Philip who was always asleep. Um, but the way you can digest information, I think it's probably a big support. I've

had a lot of experiences, as you know. You know, I did a recent master class about resilience and talked about you know, what it's like to pick yourself up. Everybody gets knocked down. We all have to figure out how to keep going. And as part of that master class, I interviewed you about mentorship and passing on some of these lessons. But do you have advice about what to do in the face of weariness and pessimism and discouragement

that you'd want to share for me? Every day I get up, and maybe this is the result of being raised in house with an ill parent. Every day I wake up and I'm healthy. Um. I have gratitude just to be alive and to be in this world. And even on days when I thought things were really bad, and boy, I have definitely had some experiences in my life that are really bad. I am somehow able to recognize that there are millions of people in this world that have it worse than I do. And I think

that's what has kept me going. And for me, I had the benefit of being raised by parents who I think resilience is something that you build. I think you're not just born with it. I think it can be in cocaine. And and you've done that with your son. Jordan's who I have just been overjoyed to get to know and watching him grow up, and he is just such a joyful, determined, you know young man, you know to have. I was raised on a household of radical empathy.

I work for a boss who has radical empathy that bosses you. My father, when he was twenty one, broke his back. He was an equestrian in the riding school at university and he's forced through him and he fell and he hurt his back and for a week was crawling around and finally when his friends took him into the doctor, uh, they said, have you been walking around on a broken back? Like? That's the man who raised me.

And actually we took horse writing lessons when I was young, and I'm not sure I've ever told you the story. And I was about fifteen. My horse Buttercup that I was supposed to be doing my writing exercises inside the shed, and Buttercup just snapped and I couldn't. We went into a canter and I lost control and I was thrown from my horse and landed right on my back. Both my parents were there, and they came running over, and my mother, you know, immediately says, no, that's it, that's it.

This is too dangerous. You know. We were going home immediately. And my father, who walked his whole life with a hunchback because he broken his back, looks right at me and he says, no, she has to get back on that horse. I mean that determination that resolved. They made sure I was okay. You know. I limped around a little bit, but they got me back on Buttercup immediately, and I remember I shaking. I was so scared, but I didn't. And throughout my childhood, my parents would do that.

Go go talk to our guests in the living room, Go read your poetry, Go call the travel agent and find out about flights. I think it's so you're doing that with Jordan too. I'm doing that with Jordan, not as much as you know. I I think I intentionally need to do more, but yes, I bring him along with me places. You know clearly I value your advice, your strategic thinking, your organizational ability, all of that. But I want to ask the question that's on everybody's mind,

where did you get your fashion sense? I mean, here you are, growing up mostly in Saudi Arabia, and in the book you write about how you just loved reading Vogue magazine and who knew years later you'd become a close friend of Anna Wintour. But you know, from the little I know about the time you were growing up, you you know you were covered. That was expected except in special occasions when you could be pretty much in a very close private environment. So how did you end

up with this love of fashion? You wanted to be an international correspondent like Christian I'm in poor But one of the first things everybody notices about you is that you really are an iconic fashionista yourself. So first of all, I'd like to point out and when I'm wearing one of my favorite all time accessories, and it is this patent leather belt that first Lady Hillary Clinton gifted to me as you were leaving the White House. Well, of course, because I had outgrown its sad like and you know,

and by the way. It was mostly dented in one notch, which was the thinnest, smallest things. One you wouldn't I used to have a waste. I mean, any years since I have seen it, but I know it's still so. I know you, I know that there's this thing out there you don't really care about fashion, but you do have some exquisite pieces. Now, I don't have a memory in my life where I didn't love something about dressing up.

I was definitely a girl's girl looking pretty and we're hearing ribbons and Vogue magazine was my most prized possession and I would tear out My mother was a beautiful seamstress. Beautiful. I think it's one of the reasons I really love clothes is my mother. I would see her, you know, I would go to the material shops in the old

city in budd with her. I opened my my whole story about you know, shopping in blod and you bolts of fabric and chiffon and silk, and it was just this magical you could create something extraordinary out of this material. And watching my mother so and those Vogue magazines that sort of really just became a bit of a you know, fascination of mine in a way to express myself because I was fairly quiet in my early twenties and beyond. Well,

you know. That brings me to this crazy idea that people have been pitching us about a food and travel show. But I think it should be food and fashion. And I'm really into this, And I mean I can be the total kind of nerd about this, because you know, my idea of fashion is you know, pretty limited. Odd, let's be honest. But I recognize it when I see it, and I think that would be kind of fun. I think here's what I think. I think we could do

a show where we travel around the world. I could style you in different places and then I was shot to myself. It would be both and then and then we would go to some we would try some amazing food, and then we would like have a hike somewhere. I think that's like we both love hiking. We do love walking and being outdoors. All right, this show. We gotta figure out what the show would be called, though, Oh my gosh, I don't know. I don't have no idea.

Hungary with human and Hillary. I think that's hilarious. That's a great idea, you know, But this is part of why you and I have been together so long, because in the worst of times, we've always been able not just to pick ourselves up, which sounds kind of, you know, just utilitarian, like okay, one foot in front of the other, but to find enjoyment and to force ourselves get outside for that walk, go for that wonderful meal that you know we want to enjoy together, Get a bunch of

people that you care about and that you want to get to know together, and sit around at table and then you know, you know, for me, it's really fun to help people and find ways to help people. And you have been a wonderful partner to me in this because we used to get handed little slips of paper that people would put in my hand or yours saying, you know, can you help me with this problem with my you know, child, or I've lost my job, or I see an injustice somewhere, what can you do to

help me? And you know, so we also share that it's that idea that you expressed earlier, radical empathy. You know, when you try to put yourself into somebody else's experience and I think you wanted to read something before I do want to read and I. You know, we wrapped up, and I want to end by asking you about what your hopes are for the new year. But but I want you to read that excerpt from your book. I want to read the excerpt, and I do want to recall all than many many hours and people one of

the things people asking about all the time. But two things they asked me. Number one, what did she ask you not to put in the book? What did she say you couldn't put in? I said nothing, literally nothing. It's all in there, including when she broke her elbow and I saw it and fainted and peeting my pants, and you said, go take care of her. Um. The second thing people always asked me, what do you guys

talk about? You're always in these like secret conversations. You're whispering in her ear, And how much time we would spend with you saying, do you remember that woman I met yesterday, you know at the coffee shop who had that problem with there's son? How many of those quote unquote secret conversations that we had that was about somebody else? And I always share this with people, and they said, you know what, what's it really like? You know? Camp politics is so tough and you know, how can you

see optimistic? And I always say it's because I remember following you around this country, starting in really into that especially in two thousand and eight and two thousand and sixteen, into people's homes, into coffee shops and school gymnasiums, And as you're on that stage and then working that rope line, we walk around, we talk to people. We are carrying the hopes, dreams, fears, and aspirations of all of these people.

And think about the responsibility you felt on your shoulders when you walked out of those events and got into that car and got on that plane and went back to Washington to serve wherever it was in the Senator beyond, and how that motivated you to keep going and it really inspired me to follow you. And so that's I think what we spend a lot of our time, and

those whispering conversations that people talk about. So this is one of my favorite passages in the book and uh And it's towards the end of the book and I write about all the things that um I have learned from Hillary Clinton. I have learned all kinds of things, how to be confident, brave, unfailingly empathetic, future focused, tough, and gracious. She and I have had countless adventures over the past twenty five years, and who knows what lies

in the future. But I am still certain about one thing. Hillary Clinton would have been an exceptional president of the United States, maybe one of the best presidents. I say that with even more conviction and resolve today than when I believed it as a starry eyed young woman. The overarching quest of her public life has always been how to help every man, woman, and child reach their full potential.

That purpose drove every policy rollout, every bill in the Senate, every speech she delivered, every town and country she visited, every book she wrote. Her focus was always how to give each child the opportunity to grow and flourish, every parent the tools to raise healthy, educated children, Every person the right to live in dignity, every worker the protections and rights to succeed and thrive. As president, she would have done the tough things, the right things, the messy

but necessary things. She would have reached across the aisle and forced divergent opinions to the table to help all Americans. She would have served her country, not herself. Maybe it won't happen in her lifetime or line, but I am confident that history will remember her as one of the

American greats. It's my favorite passage in the book, and I really well it goes on, but it means the world to me because you know, you and I we've spent I don't know by this time, millions of hours together and it's given me a lot of confidence having you by my side, um, during all those years. And I'm so proud of you, and I'm so I'm so not just excited, but grateful you wrote this book. It is both your story and a universal story. Okay, so what are your hopes for the new year, my friend? Well,

I hope to eat good food first and foremost. Um, I hope, But who did you would believe how honestly you are like the Queen of Pasta. I'm looking forward to the world. I also, I you know, I'm looking forward to this seeing the end days of this pan Demmick. And as you and I have been talking about a lot over the last few days and weeks, what can we do as part of the mission that we are

on together to help other people, young people, young leaders? Like, what are the ways that we can participate in the world. And I'm excited to see about any new adventures. I mean, you always, as I say, you're always the one who comes up with these crazy ideas. I'm just along for the ride, so ideas, um, but wishing everybody happy healthy New Year. And I'm thrilled to be in this conversation

with you. It is a wonderful, wonderful opportunity for me to, you know, not only have this conversation with you, but to underscore how special you are and how lucky I've been to have you in my life, um, for all these years. So let's just keep going, my friend, wherever that journey leads us, uh to more food, more adventure, more fashion, more fun, and more radical empathy. I couldn't

have set it better myself. Thank you so much. Whoma Abideen's new memoir is called Both and A Life in Many Worlds, and I promise you won't be able to put it down. You and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Whoma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lona Vlmorro and Benita Zalman. Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like you and

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