Funny/Not Funny (with Hannah Gadsby)

one of my favorite comedians. Though in my mind, she's much more than a comedian. She's also a provocative thinker who challenges her audiences to do some serious thinking too. Like many people, I first discovered Hannah Gadsby in eighteen when I saw her breakout Netflix comedy special Nannette. That show was a huge success, earning Hannah an Emmy and a Peabody Award, which game as a surprise to her because, as she puts it, Nanette is arguably the most deliberately miserable,

unfunny hour of comedy ever made. If you haven't seen it yet, the special begins with Hannah's trademark dry humor, with self deprecating jokes about her appearance and about the sexism and gender based violence she experienced in her life, particularly growing up in Tasmania, the very conservative part of

Australia where she lived then. And this is a spoiler, Hannah tells us she's quitting comedy because she no longer wants to be party to a form of entertainment where she introduces audiences to her trauma and then re traumatizes herself by inviting us to laugh about it. As an example, she shares the story of coming out as gay to her mother because the response to me coming out when first told her that I was a little bit lesbian

byby steps, her response. Her response was this, She's just gone, Oh, Hannah, why did you have to tell me that that's not something I to know? I mean, what if I told you I was a murderer. It is pretty funny, but as she points out, it's also very painful. Luckily for us,

Hannah did not quit comedy. Instead, she found a way of doing it that does not require her to inflict pain on herself or anyone else who's been victimized in the ways that she has in Hannah released another Netflix special called Douglas, which touches on a range of topics from the patriarchy to anti vax ER's, her haters, her own diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder or a s D, which she received in and she's got a memoir coming out right now called Ten Steps. Tune in net, Welcome

Hannah to the show. I am so happy to be talking to you, but first I got to ask you. I heard you broke your leg, real doozy. I fell over walking in Iceland. Yeah, well, there's a lot of ice in Iceland. They're not lying. It's on the label very nice, nice healthcare system there. I had emergency surgery and they looked after me. Great, have you done the physical therapy that you've got to do in order to get your strength back? Well, I've got to wait for

it to heal. So yeah, I've just had surgery. Can you get back off a bit like I've caught plates and screws in? Well? I can? I can move the foot? Yeah? I broke my elbow about to I don't remember. Two thousand and nine a long time ago. And you didn't do the exercise it did? Oh? No, I did? I did because I was I was scared out of my mind that if I didn't, but I have like plates and you know all that stuff, and I know, I mean, it takes a while, but you've got to do the

exercises when they clear you to do it. So that's that's my that's my physical therapy advice for the day. And this is not what I expected, but I will take it well. I was so excited to talk with you because I have been a fan. I really appreciate how you literally have approached not just your comedy, but I guess your life in a way that kind of

shares it with the rest of us. And in it seemed to me from afar that your life was turned upside down because your stand up special, and then that was released on Netflix, which is where I saw it. People around the world like me met you for the first time. And since then, you've put out another Netflix special called Douglas. You're soon get hit the road once your leg gets prepared and ready to do your new

show called Body of Work. You've also gotten married, another big life event, and you've got a memoir coming out. Holy moly, I mean, you have been one busy person. How has your life changed and how if you can describe how you feel about all this, because I mean, was not that long ago, and so much has happened since. Well, yeah, a lot happened in my life, and then a lot

happened globally that has nothing to do with me. So it's how to get a measure on what has become my life when the whole world has been turned upside down. That's true. But for that brief window where I was the center of the universe, it was a bit shocking. I went like, because before this Netflix special dropped, I would have classed myself as a successful comedian. I was earning money. I was a living wage, which is not something I've had before comedy b C as we like

to say. And I was regularly touring Australia in the UK, so you know, Americans would not have heard of me, but that does not preclude my existence. So the Netflix special just put me up into this model of success that was not something I was prepared for, mostly because you just look out there and you just don't see someone like me. And I say fair enough as well, like I'm not everyone's cup of tea, you know, I know, I'm a typical and not riddled with enthusiasm, and I

feel like that's what really gets you some success. So I ran the analytics, and I didn't think I'd be successful on on a global stage, and so I just sat back and sat in my lane and did my work, and I felt very disorientating to be you know, what was the trickiest thing is famous people knowing who I was. Like, it's one thing for a lot of you know, people who I would say, I like me knowing who I was, I'm like, well that's weird. But for famous people to know who I am, I'm not the best person for

that because I don't always know who people are. So I am just a faux pa waiting to happen. I'm Hillary Clinton, and I'm really and we're so thrilled to heavy on the spot. But you know, you grew up in a place that I haven't yet visited, but I you know, really been fascinated by for a very long time called Tasmania. Uh what do you know about Tesmania? Here's what given I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you what I know and then and you can tell me how

wrong I am. It's a big island part of Australia, but off the coast of Australia there are things called the Tasmanian Devils. It's somewhat sparsely populated. It is both agricultural and I guess you know, fishing and things like that. It's beautiful, but it's also stark, and it's somewhat isolating and quite conservative. That's what I know about it. You did read my book, Yeah, it's it's um it's so of like if you threw New Zealand into a gothic nightmare. Um.

I love Tasmania. I am from there. I grew up there. It's all I knew for a very long time. But the Tasmania that exists now is different to the one that I grew up in. And I think that's a really important point to make because it, like me, has evolved and it's quite easy for a single person to mature and grow up, but it's actually quite difficult for a culture to mature and grow up in a short space of time. And what did that was the gay law reform that took place in the eighties and nineties.

It was fierce and it reached the global stage. I think, you know, we might have made the New York Times once. Um it was a really intense sort of conflation of my own identity and my home's identity, because at that time it was it was fiercely homophobic and proudly so, and it was like, this is who we are, and I was learning that that's who I was. And so I was a debatable citizen in the most sort of

really vulnerable time of my life. And there's all sorts of terrible things to talk about in that story, but you could cut also to the positive headline that Tasmania has some of the strongest human rights protections in Australian. You know, I can't claim the world. It's a big place, but I think we learned as a as a community that we didn't like being divided like that, we didn't like being painted as an accepting and you know this sturely pockets still there, but as a as a whole,

I feel safe going back home where I never did before. Um. So it's a long and dark history, but there is that at the end of it. Well, I really like the way you talk about it evolving because I know that you know in the net when you talk about your childhood and and how you first saw what you call your people when you watch the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, and you saw people having a great time and partying. And you know, you have a great line where you say, well where do the quiet gays?

God always, I've never been to mad I just looks a bit much. I'm very proud, but well, I just have this image of you as as a young girl, young woman in Tasmania and like so many other lgbt Q kids, all of a sudden, not feeling alone, even though it was just through a TV screen. It's one of those It's a student of history. This this golds me the most is each generation we have to prove that we exist. And I am a student of history. I know we've always existed. You just have to not

have the biases that blind you to that existence. And right now it's happening to trans kids and gender quick kids, and honestly that's where I am on the spectrum. I have gender queer, but we didn't have the language when I was growing up. So the bonus of not having languages, you don't have the vitriol on the other side of the language, and that's what we're going through now. I feel a real sense of urgency about what I can

see happening now. I feel very also helpless because what's happening to trans kids, particularly in the US, but also in Australia, in the UK IS and elsewhere. My sure, but it's now a hot topic. It's being it's a plaything for people who want to motivate hatred in order to generate votes and clicks. It's really toxic, and it's become you know, they're dividing families that you know, even running laws that parents and teachers who help trans kids

performing some kind of child abuse. And it's just like, we can't solve the riddle of gender, but we can be decent to our children. You know, doing untold damage to trans kids and also kids who aren't you know, kids who are burgeoning transphobs. We are doing damage to them because you know, we're teaching kids that it's okay to exclude. And really, if we're going to get through climate change, we need everyone. We're taking a quick break.

Stay with us now. I want to tell you a story about a terrible conversation I had at the dog park. One this bloke just walks up to me. I mean, he had a dog. He wasn't just being creepy. Had context, and I don't want to tell you this, it's not pertinent to the story, but I want you to know his dog had shoes on, and his dog did not want to have shoes on because he's doing that like and it was a whippet situation. And they're shaking at the best of times. So we don't know why are

they cold? Are they nervous? We don't know. But it was like just it was lot. Now it's not important to the story, but it was a lot in my periphery. So I just want you to know added stress. Now, this was my friend's icebreaker. We've never met. This was his icebreaker. He said, did you know it takes less muscles to smile than brown. Now, the men in the audience are sitting there going, oh, you've experienced an isolated incident.

When the women are sitting there going oh, the Fox safe and non binary folks are like, is that a hard day for you? Isn't That's a clip from your Netflix special, Douglas. The other thing that you have talked about as you were diagnosed with autism a few years ago, and you actually have said that the day you were

diagnosed was a very good day. How would you explain that? Uh, you know, the process of going from hunch to diagnosis was quite exhilarating because as I researched it, parts of myself just fell into place and it's like, oh, oh,

I make sense suddenly. Um. In fact, coming to terms with my atypical thinking was even more profound than coming to terms with my sexuality, because ultimately your sexuality is it's not a large part of your day to day, whereas the way you think is pretty much always there.

So learning that I was never going to get to the starting line of normal I say that in air quotes, sort of gave me a bit of a breather, Like I've been treading water my entire life, just trying to work out what was important and ignoring what was actually important to me, which put a lot of stress on

my central nervous system. But the flip side of that was, after that relief came a lot of greed because it was almost so simple a click, this understanding that oh you think differently, and I can just deal with that. But I just also feel like, in this conversation about autism and neuro divergence. There's still a lot of shame around it because it's not always an easy existence. So are you choking to death? I'm not choking to death.

I'm trying not to cough through this incredible description. Yeah you did? You did? Yeah? Look, I mean the body knows the score. You did? You broken up? Sorry? Sorry? Um? Where was I? Where was I? Was I talking about anything interesting? Oh? Yes, grief? Because you know there's this shame that is being projected onto the names and the labels of a s D, and because you know at the end is disorder like that is always the thing.

But you know, if you look at the more sort of holistically, how can you prove that there is a right way for our central nerves the system to operate and what you know what sparks up and individual's central nervous system. We don't have a grip on it. We're still the sciences very active. So as individuals, we don't get to solve that. All we get to do is do the best we can. And we have enough information now to know that not all kids are the same.

Alert Let's make sure everybody hears out and it's not just the way we look like it's just on a very fundamental level, information in and information out is different, and for too long, particularly girls and any other not boys, it's seen as character flaws, and that compounds the shame and the stress of it, because it's like a boy not talking, it's like, you know, he's a strong, silent type having interesting thoughts, whereas a girl that becomes sulky,

then it's just a simple A seed is that and that snowballs. But I think the beauty of a lot of people on the spectrum, there's lot of trauma that we have to exist through because the world is not built for us and the world doesn't really accommodate our kind of thinking, which is is not direct. But I'm surrounded by stories that prioritize neurotypical experiences of the world. So I have a great understanding and appreciation for neurotypical experience,

and it is typical for a reason. But I think it's time for neurotypical people to not pity or for fear, but sort of try and learn the language. It's about humanizing. We're very we're devastatingly simple. People Just talk to us about what we're interested in, and you're ours forever, like where were your puppy dogs? Well, you mentioned the word trauma, and you've gone through a lot in your life, and now you've got a new book coming out, Ten Steps to Nanat, a new one. It's my only one, it's

your own, you one, your first. Also, I should just clean something up. Sorry to dropped, but um, I to regret that every time I say it. But anyway, I can't speak for everyone on spectrum, and it's a spectrum for a reason, So just totally get that. And and I do think it's important to emphasize that there is diversity on the spectrum, just like there is in every other aspect of human life and experience. But you know, we now know so much more about what trauma does

to the body. You know literally how it affects you know how people feel and think and almost physically your body reacts. So how have you figured out a way to process trauma? I asked, And really, you know you don't expect an answer. Well, I do expect some kind of an answer because I do think that finally people are recognizing what trauma does to a person. The way out of trauma is is a complicated path, and it's not ever, the way into trauma is is very quick,

it could be a momentum. The way out of trauma is rarely as simple, and I think, I think the emphasis on the individual to get themselves out of trauma is criminal because you can't achieve a sense of safety without the community within which you live. You know, understanding that you felt unsafe and have an invested interest in

your feeling safe. So just understanding that you can appreciate why there are great numbers of communities who are existing in cyclical trauma, because time and time again, their governments let them know that they're not safe. I have emerged on the other side of my trauma. I took a

punt with my show a Nette. It was a working theory that if I shared it honestly and in a controlled environment, and I felt like I could control the stand up comedy arena, you know, three people at a time in the same room, I was going to force them to sit in my all my sort of distress, in all its all its charm, that being you know anger, fear, and you know vulnerability, if you want to use that old chestnut, and I didn't think it would pay off.

I thought by doing that, I would reduce my audience, but reduce it to a number that felt safer to me. But what actually happened was surprising, as my audience got bigger and bigger and something and what I was saying that was cathartic people having conversations after my show, you know, families would go in and then you know, I got so many notes from people saying we had conversation the

we need to have. You know, that made me feel part of a community, and that made me feel safer, not the fact that I got this thing off my chest. It was not a void. You know, we all knew that these things happened to people all the time, but we just don't talk about it because we get stuck on the trauma loop and what happens after is so much more important. We need to show that people can recover from trauma. We need to show that it's a battle. We need help, But it's not a drain worth circling.

Terrible things happen to people all the time, and it's not resilience pawn because it's a community effort. I will not stand as a person I've nailed this. I don't know what it is about what I did that helped me through this. They did so many different things, but one of the main things is I felt connected. You know. That really corresponds with everything that I know or that I've heard about how people can work through their trauma because they find a safe space and they find a community.

And you mentioned how families would have conversations after seeing you in your stand up routine talking about, you know, the disappointments and the attacks and the physical abuse and everything that you experienced. What about your own family and particularly your mom, because I know you've talked about some of the you know, quite hurtful things that she would say to you when you were younger and when you

did come out. How has that relationship evolved. Well, I think it's evolved because I've matured and I can see. My mother was in an impossible position. She was trying to raise children in a intolerant place, and the active conversation happening around her was one of intolerance. What do you do like? You know? So she did the best she could. Sometimes it came out sideways and was painful, but ultimately she walked of an almost impossible line. But

she did it, and she's ashamed of it. She's not proud of it, and I I sometimes go, now, you're right, be fine, But it's not easy for her for me to be out in the world going this is our story. But there's so much of what she did do that you don't you're not taught to look for in the way that we tell stories. We're always looking for the good guy, the bad guy. You know, in order for me to come out and be full of pride, there has to be a bad guy in my story. And

it's just life is so much messier than that. It so is what I'm hearing you say, and what I you know you're making me feel is how you came to understand her and gave her the grace for her to feel. You know, that you were opening a door that she could then walk through despite how she felt ashamed or whatever it happened in the past. Well, we did that to each other for a while. We just kept knocked down through the right doors, and it was a long process. And it didn't help that I didn't

understand that I was autistic. And so you've got someone who's near atypical trying to communicate with someone who's not. So there's that added part of it. But she showed me grace for you know, not first I had a conversation with her, well, the gay marriage debate in Australia was was flinging itself around in the mid turns, and you know, she said something that's still to this day staggers me. And I said it in and that I

say it in my memoi. Say it again, she said to me, she said she regrets raising me as if I was straight. And I just think that that's an outlandishly progressive thing to say, um, because it's not just like it's not a simple apology like you know, sorry I said some things. It's like, fundamentally I made some assumptions that damaged you, and it is true. It's not her fault. That's the world we live in, um. And so there's a lesson to be learned there. There's a

lot of lessons to be learned there. We'll be right back. You know. Some of what made the nets so surprising and really so great is the way that you dealt with self deprecation. And I had never thought about it the way that you were describing it. You actually talk about how self deprecation from somebody who already exists in the margins. Is not humility, it's humiliation. You put yourself down in order to not only speak, but in order to seek permission to speak, and you said you just

would not do that anymore. That's such a profound realization. And you know, on a totally different level, you know, women engage in self deprecation all the time to be accepted in predominantly male settings. Put themselves down and humiliate themselves. I speak from some experience, um in order for people to think, oh, she's not threatening, she's okay. How did you get to that realization? And how did it affect the jokes she told and how you determined to present yourself.

The realization came after my autism diagnosis, and then I began to look at the way that I was telling my own story is it's it's really wrapped up in my autism. And so when I was throughout my career, when I go on stage and talk about myself, I was very self deprecating. And it was for that reason. It's like, you know, I cut a slightly strange figure on stage, so I had to address that. You know, I tried not to on occasions, and nobody would laugh

until I addressed the issue that was me. I couldn't just go out and talk about pop tarts, you know, So that was my on stage persona. But then I was also doing art history lectures on the side, a little bit of a side hustle festivals, I you know, like the Scottish Art Gallery in Edinburgh and all the National Gallery Victorian during the Melbourne Comedy Festival, and I do comedy art lectures, and when I got on stage and delivered those, I was the captain of the room

because I didn't have to explain myself. But also I was talking about my passion and autism circles. We call it's the special interest, but I feel like passion is actually a better term, and so I wasn't thinking about myself. I don't care how he's got something to tell you. I've got something interesting to say and you'll listen. And they did. But I couldn't marry the two. I couldn't work out how to be that, and until I was diagnosed, I didn't quite understand that. And so once I did that,

I thought the self deprecation for what it was. It was an apology, but also trying to fit in to other people's expectations of you. And I had enough experience as a comedian to be able to undo that, you know, because I felt more confident than I was looking on stage, and so I began to pull that apart. And then I saw it for what it was, which is like, oh,

I'm putting myself down. I'm doing the work. I thought I was flipping the script on the homophobia, on the you know, the fat phobia, on the woman phobia, all the queer phobia, all these phobias. I thought I was flipping the script. But in order to flip the script, first of all, I had to remind people of the script. And that was a damaging thing. And that's what I did in and it and I said, the script is no good. I'm changing the script. But I also think

it's an important tool. I'm not devoid of it now, like I'm in a different part of my life now, says my self deprecation skills are actually coming in handy. I need to have a bit of humility about me. I have power where I didn't have any. Now people know me, the room changes when I walk into it. I should be self deprecating. That's interesting. But from the new perspective. Yeah, but I won't be self deprecating about being queer. I won't be self deprecating about being autistic

white all day. I will be self deprecating all day about wine. Not a problem. We are bad people. We it's there is proof, there's a lot of evidence backing. We wrote it. We kept the notes. Well, you said that you know your life had changed, and one thing is you got married last year. Congratulations, I think you married your producer Jenny. Now how did you two get together? And um, and how did you decide that you're going to take this, you know, big step together. We started

working together. She was my on the ground producer for my off Broadway run of Nanette, so it was a pre Netflix. We worked together great. We liked each other. But I'm not great at picking up you know. So you know. Just but when I was about to do a world tour of my new show Douglas, I was chatting and she told me she was looking for a new thing to do. New. She's incredibly intelligent, incredibly good at what she does, but was looking for something new.

And so I ran my manager and said, okay, Because the thing about Jenner is that she knew I needed things before I did. And as someone on the spectrum, that is just so nice because sometimes I'll be distressed and not know why. And I had someone on my team who's just like I think, I think you might be thirsty. It's as simple as that. So we began to work together. We're on it. We did a world tour and at some stage that the penny drop. Then

the pandemic happened. So we had a world tour and a pandemic in lockdown on in Australia, and if I don't know if you read the news, but it was it was brutal. Yeah, we we took it seriously. So we figured from that, you know, that's sickness and health in rather extremes that we had this. But Jenny is one of the only people I've ever met who instantly understood my way of communicating. And you know, there wasn't

a torment of adjustment. It was just which is really lovely. Well, I'm going to end by asking you for advice because hill Billy here for you. If I need you, I need your girl. So you've talked about dealing with online trolls, who, as we both know, just loved to come after people like us who don't follow the rules or the prescribed roles that are set out for us. So, what's your

strategy for dealing with online bigotry and hatred? And you've got any good comebacks you want to share for the next time I need one, Hillary, my advice to you is don't engage, because what's coming at you is not

sanity boy, that's for sure. The thing about social media, we have allowed a very narrow demographic of people who are not famous for their interpersonal skills like I speak as they might people, and we have allowed that small demographic of people to build the infrastructure through which we all communicate, and it's driving us insane as a collective. And so just bear that in mind next time you

see dramas. Just like Zuckerberg, Hannah Goutsby, I cannot tell you how much I have loved talking with you in person. So instead of just admiring you from AFAR and following your personal evolution, I agree got to talk to you and I just look forward to whatever comes next for you. Thank you very much. Hally Billy has been an absolutely create I'm so sorry I keep calling you that, but I'm not sorry. Thank you so much. Thank you. I guess Hannah did do her physical therapy exercises because she's

back on her feet and hitting the road. She'll be performing her new show called Body of Work across the United States this spring and summer. For details on her tour, go to Hannah Gatsby dot com dot AU. And before I go a next week's episode of You and Me Both,

I'll be answering your questions with a special guest. If you've got a last minute question for me, you can write to You and Me Both pod at gmail dot com, or you can leave a voice message at two oh to seven eight oh seven five one five, and who knows, I might just answer your question on the show You and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson,

Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow, and Benita Zaman. Our engineer is Zach McNeice and original music is by Forest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, please tell someone else about it, And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to you and me both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and we'll be back neck next week when I'll be answering your questions. Don't miss it.