Doing Hard Things (with Bobby Berk, Abby Wambach & Glennon Doyle)

these are really hard decisions. And I thought it would be great to talk to a couple of people who have lived through that. I'll be talking with one of my favorite couples, Abby Wombach and Glennon Doyle and wait till you hear their story. It's so multidimensional, it's got so many hard things in it, and I just love hearing from both of them. But first, I'm talking to

Bobby Burke. You may know him as the interior design expert on the Netflix series queer Ie, and if you've ever watched the show, you know Bobby can do hard things because in a matter of days, he transforms important spaces in people's lives into places that are both beautiful and functional. But what you may not know is that long before queer. I Bobby transformed his own life. I'm so excited to be welcoming you to the show, Bobby.

And first of all, how are you doing? Where are you that we're still in the I hope tail end, but still in the pandemic. I'm actually home in l A. You know, people ask if my life has changed a lot during the pandemic, and obviously it has because I'm traveling wait less for work. But normally when I'm home, like, I don't weave the house. I'm like, what, I'm home, It's it's pretty much the same for me. I don't go out much. Well, you are well acquainted with doing

hard things. You had to become an expert on that early on. You left home at a very young age, I think, right, can you describe what led you to make that really hard decision. I mean, there were a lot of reasons. Um. The main reason though, was knowing that I was gay, knowing that coming out in my home, coming out in this very small religious community that I

was a part of, wasn't an option. But I also knew that staying in the closet and wearing that mask every single day of not one person in the world knowing who I was, it was very lonely. So was either come out and risk somebody else to be frank probably killing me. You know. Somebody came out in my high school and some guys ran him off the road one night. So for me, it was come out at home and Lord knows what I go through, or stay in the closet and you know, think about doing bad

things to myself, you know. And I think that's why there's such a high rate of suicide and the LGBTQ youth in America is because you are programmed to believe your entire life that you are something bad. And then finally, one day at fifteen, you know, through meeting some people online who helped me accept who I was and that I wasn't a bad person, I decided to leave Um. It was a catalyst. My my parents and I really were getting along at that time. You know, I was.

I was an angry team, which happens when you put on that mask every single day and you pretend to be somebody else that society tells you that you should be. So I got an argue with my parents one night, and their line was always, if you don't like our rules, there at the door, and so that night I took the door and I never went back. And where did you go that night? I I You know, I landed on a friend sofa, which I stayed on for a few months. And then I ended up in Springfield, Missouri, UM,

the big city of two people. Oh I've been there. Yeah, I'm sure you have. You're from not too far from there, that's right. So I ended up there. I enrolled myself in high school, but I quickly realized that I was not able to pay the bills and put a roof over my head and stay in school. So I actually dropped out of school at sixteen, and I started selling long distance at m C I. So you might have gotten a call from me back then to try to

switch your long distance service. Well, I can't remember whether I did or not. You know, you found your way finally to New York, right, you know, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. It's funny you should say that, because then fast forward. You know, I moved to New York with a hundred bucks in a suitcase, and I built my own brand, my own company, and my own retail stores. And I remember I was on my way to the airport and a car service.

And you know again that that's a huge thing for me back then, because when I first moved to New York, I had to walk around the city to look for a job because I couldn't eat them for the subway. So I was in a car on my way to the airport to fly to l A for the opening of my Los Angeles store, and Alicia Keys came on that New York song and I just start bawling in the car, and I just think of the song and the poor drivers, like, oh my god, you know what's

going on with this guy. But it was just such a moment for me to hear that song and realize, you know, if you can make it in New York, you can make it anywhere. That story and not that you know you've got it to go to New York to make it anywhere, but it definitely making it New York makes it a little easier other places. Well, did you ever reconcile with your family? Um? A few years after I left, my parents called me and they're like, you know, we're sorry, We're sorry, we were bad parents,

were sorry, we didn't know how to deal with you. Um, And we reconciled and now we're very very close. And my parents have come such a long way. You know, my parents have come from being very anti it's okay, and homophobic. So now, like my dad, anytime I'm on the phone with with FaceTime, my husband's name is Dewey. My dad called him do Do and he's like, where's do? Do you know? He does? He loves my husband, I think almost more than me. They've come so far both

you know, religiously and politically. Um. You know, they're in a very very red state and I know unfortunately who they voted for back in But a phone call a few weeks ago, my eighty year old cowboy dad said, I want you to know I didn't vote for him, just for you, just you, I didn't vote for him. He's like, I didn't vote for the other guy either, but I didn't vote for him. And I'm like, well, you know what that is a start. You know a

lot of people say you have the hardest job on Queer. I. You know, you have to go into people's homes, you have to completely gut and redo an incredibly short time. Well, other members of the Fab five or you know, giving haircuts, Um, do you get fair to say that, know, what you have to do is the hardest of the jobs. And have you ever felt totally overwhelmed by what you're facing? You know, I, I might have the most time consuming job on the show, but I wouldn't say it's the

hardest job. And I knew what I was getting into going into it. You know, I I have a design business. This is actually what I do for a living, So I knew it wasn't gonna be easy. I knew it was going to be the most time consuming and I'd be working, you know, quote unquote physically working more than them, but every single one of us. If we didn't do what we did, the show wouldn't be what it was. And you know, often I would say Karamo's job is the hardest. He's the one that really has to crack

them emotionally when these people have up walls. I mean, that's the reason why they're on this show, is where you're to help them emotionally, Like I'm just using a tear design to trick them into opening up about stuff. You know, his his sometimes is the real I would say hardest. Have you always had an eye for design? Is that something that you knew about yourself as as a child or a young man, you know. When I was little, I still remember, I don't know if you

remember Ben Franklin's. I don't know if you had those in Arkansas. We did. We would go into Ben Franklin all the time because my mom was a big sewer and she made a lot of our clothes, and she even made I don't know if you remember back in the day with cabbage Patch kids were so popular, but we couldn't afford a real cabbage Patch kids. So you could buy and Ben Franklin you could buy the heads and then my mom would make the bodies. And so we were always in Ben Franklin and she was buying

fabric to make his clothes. And I remember I would go through there and then in the decor section and I would always love that. And I was probably five years old the first time that I wanted to redo my room. I found a poster in Ben Franklin and it was this dinosaur poster kind of cartoon is Trying. And I talked to my mom and say getting that. I think I used birthday money to buy it, and I I coordinated everything in the room from bedspreads and pillows,

to curtains, to the colors in that dinosaur poster. And I, you know, growing up up in you know, it was a small farming town in Missouri, design wasn't a thing. You know, there was home interior parties that my mom would have, but it wasn't really something I thought of as a career. The d of the only designers I saw were designing women, you know on television that show, you know, Delta Burke. Uh. You know, there were no

interior designers in Mount Vernon, Missouri. And it wasn't until my early teens when I walked into Target and I saw their very first design collaboration, which was with Michael Graves. And that book behind me that you can see is the and of the twentieth anniversary collection of Targets Collaborations with designers. And the reason why I bring that up is because that collaboration is what inspired me to be

a designer. That collaboration was the first time I looked at a spoon and I thought, Huh, spoons aren't just utilitarian. Spoons can actually spark joy. Spoons can look cool, a toaster can look cool. And so that moment twenty two years ago now inspired me to be a designer and I'm in this book. Oh that's so touching. Such a full circle moment of that collaboration and that architect and target really going out on a limb to try to

be different and democratized design is what inspired me. And then to be full circle to be able to be a part of that book was just mind blowing. It sounds like you've really thought hard about who you are, what you do, how you interact with people. And I want to just go back to the point you made earlier about how difficult the church that you were part of when you were a young boy made it for

you becoming who you were, accepting who you were. You know, if God doesn't make mistakes, then you know, guess what. God doesn't make mistakes, and it shouldn't be you know, conditioned by somebody, that's right, So you know, one of the hardest things you had to do, I've read, is to you know, navigate your relationship often challenging, sometimes hurtful

to religion. And in the course of your work, though I've noticed on Queer I you found yourself working with deeply religious people and even redesigning churches so how did you come to do that and what did it make

you feel as you went through that. You know, the first episode that we did in a church was Mama Tammy, and that episode was sprung on us the week before, and normally we know what's going on a few weeks out, but there was somebody who was supposed to be in that episode and they had a health emergency, and so our executive producers had to very quickly try to recast, and Mama Tammy got cast, and I mean, I'm so

glad she did. But I had told Netflix because I had total executive producers in the very beginning, when we had our very first lunch after I got casts, and I'm like, I'll do anything you guys want. I'll go into any situation. My one non negotiable is do not ask me to go into a church. And they did very good of steering clear of religion until this last episode. And I was told you're gonna be redoing a community center, and my you know, design producer leans over and he's like,

don't believe it. It's a church. It's not a community center. You know. Producers were then like, yeah, you know, it's a community center. Next to a church, and I'm like, girl, I grew up in a church. I know that that's just the fellowship hall. Don't try to tell me it's a community center. So I refused to do the episode. And I'm like, I I told you guys, this was

my one non negotiable. I have been through an emotional roller coaster doing the show the last year, and I know what I need to stay no to for my own mental health. I'm like, this is going to break me.

And you know, there was a lot of back and forth, and I got called by one of the guys, Joel at the at Scout Productions, the creators of the show, and he went through a lot of the same emotional trauma that I went through in a church, you know, growing up your entire life being taught to hate yourself, being taught to know that when you die you're gonna burn in hell, and begging and pleading for God to change you, but he's not, and so you just you

hate yourself and you hate yourself, and to be honest, you never get over that. You can come to terms with it a bit, but you never get over it. And so he called me and he's like, I get it. You know, I fully understand why you would never want to walk into that church, why you would never want to help the people who damaged you, who are probably damaging kids in their church right now. But that is

exactly why you need to do it. You need to do it for all the little Bobbies and the little Joels still sitting in churches being taught to hate themselves. And so reluctantly I did it. And I don't know if you've seen that episode, but in the beginning of the episode, you know, the guy, the construction guy, was like, oh, come on into the church. I want to show you all the other boys went in and I refused. And

it wasn't in a dramatic way. It was just like I stood outside the front door and I'm like, I'm good, thank you, and he was like, well, no, you know, come on in. I was like, I'm good, thank you. And to be honest, I I came under some some angry flak from some some people high ups not at Netflix that were quite angry with me for offensively not walking in that church. And at the end of the day I was so and at the end of the

day they were glad. Actually I didn't as well, because it it really proved a point to people, and it showed that you can without anger and without strife and fighting, just stay true to yourself and know the things that will break you and your mental health. And I think it showed a lot of people that it is okay to have a different point of view, but to coexist. It's okay. You know what, I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna help this church, but I'm going to know

where the line is for me, you know. And at the end of the day, the amount of d m s and emails and letters that I have received from people and pastors, pastors who have messaged me and have said my entire life in church, I grew up being taught and believing that gays weren't abomination, that you were evil, that you chose to be gay, And I, in turn, have preached that same hate in my church. And I am now devastated with myself for the damage that I

have done two kids. And I will never again preach that in my church again. You know, it was, honestly, it was emotional trauma doing that. And you know, because you were so honest in the beginning, you know, the viewer could follow not just the experience of the episode, but the arc of your you know, reactions and how you dealt with it. And isn't it the case that

Mama Tammy's son is gay. Yes. So one of the reasons why Mama Tammy was chosen is because Miles had come out a few years before that and she didn't disown him, but it didn't go well. You know, he left home, he went off to school. He was also one of those kids who grew up in church every single day and when he came out, he was shunned.

So one of the reasons why they were chosen is because we wanted to help Mama Tammy except Miles, and we also wanted to help Miles kind of deal with the pain that he went through of having a group of people who were supposed to love you one conditionally and you devoted your entire life to all of a sudden turn their back on you the moment they find

out who you are. Um So, through a lot of talk with Loma Tammy, who is a lovely, wonderful person, she realized where she failed him, and that final scene of that episode where she stands up and witnesses in her church and she's like, you cannot claim to love Jesus and not love gay people. You cannot be a Christian and not love gay people. Was such an amazing moment. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. You know, people change, they grow, they absorb, they evolve. However we

want to talk about it. I certainly have, everybody I know has, But that requires an open mind and a willingness to move on from where you were. And for the church to be close to that is incredibly profoundly sad to me because the church is in many ways a place of refuge for people, but so are people's homes. And you spend your life which is really a calling, Bobby. It's a calling to help people make their homes places

of security, comfort and beauty. But during this pandemic, where people have been at home so much, how have you talked to them? How have you even thought about it that you could help people kind of make their homes places they want to be after having been in them under such really difficult circumstances. I would say start with something small. Organization is the best thing. Don't worry about the sign. You don't have to stress yourself out of Oh I don't know how to place things. Just start

by organizing things. Start with that junk drawer in the kitchen. We all have that drunk tour that collects everything. Go through that, get rid of the things you don't need, and that will be a sense of accomplishment and you'll realize, oh, I can do this, and then I'm going to move on to the rest of the cabinet. So no, I'm gonna move onto that hall closet, or I'm going to move on to that guest bedroom that's been the catch all of all these things that I thought I needed

to hang on too. But they've been sitting in this room for an entire year and I've been home and I still haven't done anything. So you know what, it's time to donate them and let them spark joy for somebody else. So start with organizing, and organizing is going to turn into design. Organizing is designing. I love that phrase. You know your life has turned out so differently than you could have ever thought possible when you were a kid. If you could tell your fifteen year old self what

his life was going to be like. And I think it's really great to hear you do that, because I think there are a lot of fifteen year old sixty seventeen year old there's a lot of people out there who will find comfort and confidence from what you have to say. I mean, my biggest advice would be, don't let anyone tell you who you are. Don't let anyone tell you what you can or cannot be. And you know, even as adults, we struggle with this. I'm sure you

struggle with this. People try to find you, they try to tell you who you are, and they're just random strangers. Even so, my advice for fifteen year olds or fifty year olds or ninety year olds is, don't let anyone tell you who you are. Don't let anyone define you. Only you can define who you are, and don't let anyone else's definition of who you are hold you back to your greatest potential. Oh I love that. And it's a lifelong journey and process, isn't it. I still struggle

with it. Everybody does well, Bobby Burke, I'm thrilled to talk with you. You are everything that I thought you would be, and I am so grateful that you're willing to tell your story because it's going to land on different ears in different ways. And there are still so many people who need to hear that you can do hard things and you can make a life that you're proud of and that you want to share with the

rest of us. So thank you so very much, thank you, thank you so much for having me Madam Secretary, and this has been an honor. If you'd like to learn more about Bobby's design company, go to Bobby Burke dot com. And if you've enjoyed today's conversation with Bobby, you can also check out my interview with Tan France, another member of the Fab Five, and that interview is from season one of this podcast, in our episode on the American Dreams,

So go give it a listen. I could not have been more excited to talk with two people that I knew of separately, but boy, they are a true powerhouse together. And I think you'll understand why I say that after you listen to this conversation with Abby Wamback and Glenn and Doyle. I first learned about Abby Wamback in connection with women's soccer. You know, a hundred years ago, when I was in junior high school, I actually played soccer and it wasn't very common. I had a physical education

teacher who loved the game. Not very many people even knew about it, but I always was interested in soccer. You know, from that experience going forward, and you know, Abby's a two time Olympic gold medalists. She has the most amazing record with the Women's World Cup, winning it for the USA. In she wrote a fantastic memoir called Forward and another book called Wolfpack, How to come together

on leash our power and Change the Game. So I have followed her from afar, both based on her athletic prowess and what she has to say which is really worth hearing. I first encountered Glennan when she was gaining a lot of attention as a blogger about being a wife and a mom and a Christian, and she amassed this very large following because she was so willing to be vulnerable and talking about all the challenges in her

own life. Some listeners know that she has authored to New York Times bestsellers, Love Warrior and her latest book on Tame Aimed, and her rallying cry is we can do hard things. But honestly, I had no idea until maybe the last year or two that Glennon Doyle and Abby Lombach had not just gotten together but gotten married, and I went, lo, I have to talk to them. I cannot tell you how excited I have to talk

to you both. So when I came across and I don't even remember how I stumbled into this, because it was before I read Untamed, of course, and I realized you two had gotten together and gotten married. I was like, oh my god, the universe, the stars, the Cosmo Sissi in alignment, how did this happen? And so Glenn and you've written about it, I want you to start, and then I want Abby to give us her view of it. Okay, So we were at a book event. Okay, it was

a librarians mentioned super sexy, super sexy library. Um. I was at a table full of writers and we were trying to make small talk with each other, which is just a nightmare. And the woman I was talking to, she was a children's book book writer, and I noticed that she stopped talking and she looked turned towards the door, and so all of a sudden, the room got quiet.

So I turned towards the door and there was this woman standing in the doorway, and she was like thirty ft tall and had this like shaved side head and platinum hair, and she's wearing this trench coat. And she just had this presence that was very cool but also very warm, and she looked like a man and a woman and beyond both and and and hello me. This was like, this is a table full of writers like we the level of cool that had entered the room, we didn't understand. It was like the mocking Jay had

landed at a nerdy book part right. And I it is well known in my family that my spiritual gift is whatever awkwardness is in a room, I am able always to make it more awkward. Okay, that's what I do for the world. And so something happened to me in that moment I looked at her. I understood that I was having some kind of reunion. It didn't feel like I was meeting her. It felt like I was reuniting with her. But then, unfortunately I lost control of my body, and so I stood up out of my

chair and threw my arms open toward her at the door. Okay, so I don't know this is happening until I come to consciousness and realize that everyone's now staring at me. So now I have to figure out how I'm going to get from this position back to my chair. Did you know who she was? Um? I knew she was. I'm not a fan of the sports, but I did understand something about World Cups, something about the soccer um,

and so I I bowed. This is a family joke now, and people do it all the time when someone walks into a room, because I thought maybe I can just play it off like I'm a weird writer who bows when people walk appropriate, right, right, So I bound and sat down. That was the moment we saw each other for the first time. I'm sure your moment was just as magical. It was a little different. Oh good, I

want to hear the Abbey version of this. Yeah. So I walk into the room and for whatever reason, I'm like running a little late, which is so unlike me.

And I get into the room and they're they're all they're sitting down eating dinner, and this person across the way stands up and puts her arms stretched out, And so now I'm in the awkward position that I have to go unite with her because she has body language told me we are going to embrace, So I have to like side stuff because you know, this is a small room and the chairs are kind of close to the wall, so I've got a sidestep all the way around to Glennon and I finally get to her, and

at this point she has since sat back down and she just says, can I hug you? I was like, well, like that was even an option. You have energetically forced me around this whole table, So we hug. And I had done a little bit of research on all the authors that would be there, and she was the one author that I was like, Oh, I want to talk

to her, okay, why you know? The Love Wayar and the premise of Love Waar was was kind of in the little research that I had, and in it it said that she was sober, and I had just recently gotten sober, like a month ago, so I was very interested and curious about how somebody does sobriety period right so um, and and that she was so fearless in

telling her truth. It was something I was very big time struggling with because I hadn't actually finished the book that I was there to publicize, because there was a part of it the d u I that I got at the end of my career walking straight into my retirement. I didn't know if I wanted to include it. And she just said, you know, real people in the real world want the truth, and that is what you should

give people. And I just thought, oh, that's amazing. And then she said, I also have a rap sheet as long as your arms, so I don't even worry about it. Of course, you know, you got up from the dinner and you went your separate ways. So what happened next? How did that moment, that electric moment, evolve into a marriage with three kids and a house? I mean, you know, a real all American love story. What happened? Well, it got even weirderer or not. I was in a very

broken marriage to a good man. That's a tricky place to because we're supposed to be dis grateful for what we have and other people have it worse. And yeah, yeah right, So, um, I really did have to decide whether I was just gonna shut down whatever had just happened to me in that room and go back to my broken marriage, or whether I was going to be open to it and pursue it. And and and what I try to explain to Abby is it didn't feel

like a love decision. At the time, it felt like, am I going to honor this self that I have just met again? Like that was buried clearly, you know, this person that announced itself in that room. Am I going to abandon her again and just go back to good enough? Or am I going to honor that? Like it kind of felt like spiritually life and death. And so what happened is that we started emailing each other.

I found her email address from her assistant that was at the event, and I wrote to her, you know, just as like a good person does, just offering my best spiritual advice. You know, I just felt motive reaching out into the world. No, I just really felt like I wanted to do the right thing, And so I wrote to her, and we started writing back and forth, and we overtime fell in love through letters. We didn't see each other again in person until we had both

completely dismantled our lives. I mean, well, yeah, we didn't see each other until months and months later, and when I had already sat down with Craig and told him I'm leaving I'm in love with Abby. We had talked to the children we had start and she had done the same thing. So we fell in love through letters. Oh that makes it even more romantic. But Abby, here you were. You were at the beginning of your sobriety journey.

You had encountered this spirit in this you know woman at the dinner, and all of a sudden you start emailing how did you come to the realization that you you needed to continue with sobriety, but everything else in your life had to change. When you're early in your sobriety life, you're so concerned with how do we rebuild

a life? And at the time, so much of my life was revolved around going out and partying, and those were the friends that I had, and I knew that I had to have a completely different experience to stay sober. And the way that Glennon and I like to define that word is just peace. So Glennon gave me the

understanding that it is possible. Right so early on. She was married and I'm like, I was getting a divorce and I was like, you know what, I just want to be close to this person because she's giving me confidence in this piece that I'm in search of. And then I think that, you know, not that she was a sponsor for me in any way. Um, but I think that having people like that to help you on that sobriety journey, I know that it has completely saved

my life. But at the end of the day too, when you throw love into the mix and then deciding to build a whole life together, I can't even remember the time that I wasn't sober or I didn't have you, you know, so I just I'm so grateful for so many reasons. Glennon. By that time, how long had you been sober? I guess Ober the day I found out I was pregnant with my son, Chase, And now he is eighteen, so back then it would have been fifteen years.

You know. One thing that I have thought a lot about, Glennon is because you you really came to public awareness. I first became aware of you because of your writing and you're speaking, your Ted talk and all of that, and you had a really large Christian following. How has that been affected by, you know, your divorce, by your falling in love with and marrying Abby. For your very

open description of what your life is like now. Yeah, one of the interesting things about when I announced online that Abby and I were going to be together the night before that happened my team. I remember someone saying, well, tomorrow's the blood bath. That's what I went to bed thinking, Oh, tomorrow's the blood bath. Right that morning, I wrote a short something. It was very important to me to tell

but not to explain. I felt very I thought it was important to tell the truth but not be responsible for anyone's reaction to it, right, And so I wrote a paragraph. I put a picture of Abby and me on Facebook or Instagram or something, and then I walked away. I shut the computer and walked away. My sister, who was my protector in all things, she was going to monitor the world as she tries to do. Just fix the world for me, real quick, right, so um. A

few hours later, she called me crying. My sister does not cry. She called me crying. She said, Glenn, and I need you to get on your social media. I need you to get on and I need you to read how your community, how your people are reacting to this news. And I was expecting a blood bath. And it felt like a baptism. It was so beautiful, and it wasn't just beautiful in that people who you know understood it and celebrated it. And we're super progressive. They

were celebratory. Even the people who were confused as all right, who were like, um okay, love winds um like they've got that, Like they didn't have any clue, but they were trying. You know, It's just wow. You know, I have to ask both of you as you were talking about and I loved what you told Abby and what Abby just told us. You had said about real people want the truth? Why do we do at this point in our country where it does seem like a lot

of real people want anything but the truth. And I've thought about the two of you in this context, because I mean, you've really been and on the forefront of making change. You know, whether you knew it or not, you have been and for that, I am certainly grateful, and you've gone through a lot. And I am just wondering if you have any thoughts about how we began

reaching other people. I mean, we're not all going to agree, fine, but to help create more of a community like the community that received your truths both of you, the larger community is so divided and it's a dangerous divide. Any thoughts on that. The time that I spent with the national team, it was so special because there was this little ecosystem of women who all could agree on one thing,

and that was winning. Now, we sat around a ton of meal tables for hundreds and hundreds and thousands of hours. So you sit around the table after you've eaten, and you talk and we discussed. We disagreed. There were Republicans, there were democrats, there were straight there were evangelicals, there were every kind of person. Yet we were still able

to accomplish this thing at winning. And I think about this all the time because I understand that this is a super complex issue as it relates to the nation where we're at right now. But I think about this and it does give me hope. I wasn't best friends with every single one of my teammates, but I respected the hell out of every single one of those women because guess what, every single one of us, I'm like

giving myself the children's cellarius. Every single one of us would show up, would sacrifice the same amount, and we would give it all because we bought into this idea not only the relentless pursuit of excellence, but to win. So, yes, we disagreed, but we were able to still function. And by the way, when you know this whole year of the team that I now am thinking based on what you just said that you know, there's another idea. There's another book in you Abby about the American team. It's

not just the women who play soccer. It is all of us. And we used to think we were on the same team. I mean, even if we disagreed with each other, even if we've found each other, you know, totally ridiculous. We always thought we were on the same team. And we've had leaders recently who have divided us and said, no, you know, only one team is worth being on the team. I'm on the team. I lead the team that believes

in me, which is so dangerous and destructive. But this idea of the American team, maybe we can figure out how to explain that and in effect put it out into the world again. Thank you. I will send you some royalties for this book. I will take that little nugget and I'm going to run with it. I wish you would, you know, I love to behind Glennon is her Matra. We can do hard things, and you've really

seated that in the world. Glennon, how does it feel to see more and more people coming around to this idea that you first really understood when you were a third grade teacher and another teacher put that up on the wall of her classroom. Well, it's I mean, I think that the idea we can do hard things is sort of a declaration of hope, right, but it's hope based in reality. It's not like this is easy, just wake up in the morning and do it and come on. No,

it's like this time. It's resonating right now so much because we're all facing the hard stuff. You know. We talk a lot about how this metaphor where it's like we're all snow globes. I had the snow globe when I was little, and I loved it, but I hated it because it was so beautiful that the snow in it, But there was this terrifying dragon at the center of it, and I thought it was so scary. So I keep it shaken up all the time so I never had

to see that scary red dragon. And that reminds me of myself, right, just constantly keeping myself shaken up with whatever it is business, um, snark, shopping, food, what it used to be, boot, whatever it is, you know, so that I don't have to see the dragon at the center of things, and I think that's what you know, COVID has been this forced settling of the collective snow globe, and we are looking at the dragons of our lives and our relationships and our nation, you know, and that's hard,

Like looking at the truth of things is the hardest thing. That's beginning of sobriety. It's the beginning of any healing of a relationship. I think it's it's the beginning of the possibility for hope, for healing for our nation. But we avoid that part because the truth is so scary. But the reason why it's hopeful is because you can't slay any dragon without first looking at it. Yeah, accepting it.

It's there, It's in your nation, right, I'm anything we think about, you know, the racial reckoning that we've had um and that we're having, and then it's just beginning, I think. And you think about how that started sort of during COVID and the George Floyd murder, and it's like, but what was different about that time? We've been looking at this happening over and over again, but what was different is that we couldn't look away from it. We were in our homes. We didn't have anywhere to go.

We couldn't just caret we couldn't shake the snow globe up again. And so I think that we can do hard things is just a way of saying, oh my god, we are seeing all of our dragons right now. Good good, We'll be right back. I want to switch gears a minute, because one of the areas that I think about when I think of you, Abby is your outspoken fight for equal pay and benefits for American women in sports. And it's a disgrace where we are across the board, but

in particular in soccer. When I think about everything you gave for the sport, you know, one image that sticks in my mind is you know that qualifying World Cup game against Mexico where literally you smashed your head. Blood is gushing from your head, and instead of walking off the field and getting a substitute, you stood there and had your head stapled closed. I mean, honest to God, I think about that and I go, oh, I don't

know what is the equivalent in my life. When did I, you know, go back in with my metaphoric, you know, Staples. I think about that because then I remember how you were honored as you well should have been. And as I write about you in the book of Gutsy Women that I wrote with my daughter, I think the record still is you have scored more goals in international competition than any woman or man in the history of you know,

international soccer, which obviously is huge. And ESPN honored you along with Kobe Bryant and Peyton Manning, and I was thrilled that you know you were going to be given this incredible recognition, But explain how you felt at that moment, because I think listeners need to understand that behind the glory and the celebration, there was a harsh reality. Well,

so I just want to circle back two things. One, God really loves Glennon, because God brought Glennon into my life after my career, so that head stabling incident would not have flown very well with her. She would have

have passed out on the grounds to carry um. And then secondly, and this is so great, Christine Sinclair, a woman who plays for the team Canada, has since broken the record that I took over from Mia, and something so good needs to be shared and other women need to experience what it feels like to have worked relentlessly for decades to accrue that many goals. So I'm happy our children are like what do I say now, Like my mom is like number two in the world for

at least a week. Um, But then, you know, to finish the story. In terms of Khobe and Peyton, I felt so glad that they thought of me, you know. And I remember being on that stage and I was a little bit nervous because I had some lines to say and it was nationally televised, and I nailed the lines. Hillary, you know I did. I nailed go girl. I just remember feeling on stage. I felt so grateful, right often

the only emotion women are allowed. So when the lights turned off and the three of us turned to walk off stage, something else happened inside of my body. I started to get a kind of rage that I had never experienced before. A guilt, a fear, and anger, a rage. I felt sick. I felt sick to my stomach that I didn't do enough when I was in it because

this was my exit right. And here's the thing, you know, Kobe and Peyton's biggest concerns at this point in their retirement was where they were going to invest their hundreds of millions of dollars that they collectively earned. And my biggest concern, and this is a true story, is how I was going to find a job to pay my mortgage, how I was going to earn any money. And in the hotel room that night, I promised myself two things.

Number One, Crystal Dunn, who's a current national team player, Alex Morgan, who's a current national team player in Megan Rapino, these women would never share this experience with me. I will do whatever it takes to make sure that their

experience is different. And then number two, most importantly, if this was happening to me, I understood deeply that this was happening to every woman, because on some weird level, when you get invited into certain rooms and you are given certain seats at certain tables where decisions are made, you have a sense that maybe I am not a victim to this inequality right, But that night I understood

that I was. I understood that we all are. And I have dedicated since then my whole life, my mission, my purpose on this planet is to make sure that we do everything possible to fix the inequalities that are rampant through every industry. In every city and every state, in every country of this world. Women they retire with less, they have to work longer, which is just freedom. And I I believe that people deserve to be treated equally. I literally could talk to the two of you all day.

So let me and with this question each of you. Hopefully in the next few months, enough of us are going to get vaccinated and we're gonna see the beginning of a return to the semblance of a normal life, whatever that means anymore. So what is each of you looking forward to? Most? And Glenn? And you've already gotten your hair done, so you can't you know, you can't

say that, right. I mean, I know in the in the beginning of the pandemic it was I'll follow you on Instagram and there was lots of talk about hair. And as someone who has both talked about and Ben talked about a lot regarding hair, I think we've covered that. So what besides that, what are you both looking forward to? I mean, the most honest answer that I can think of for that is, I just desperately want to hug my mom. Oh where does she live? She lives in Virginia.

I'm gonna um, I have not seen them since March, and um, you know, they haven't seen our kids, and they It's just I cannot wait to just hug my mom and hug my dad. And I hope that I don't forget that. I hope that I remember what it's like to not be able to and that I um value that more in the after Abby. What about you? This is a tough question for me to answer because I spend my life basically on the road doing speaking events and whatever it is, whatever the heck else I

do for my work and to earn money. I'm a hustler. Um, this time has been so interesting, and I bet you you probably would agree Hillary that this is the first time my central nervous system has comed itself down to a ground at zero because I haven't been able to travel. And so as hard as this has been in so many ways, this has been in some ways one of the greatest gifts that I have ever been handed, and I have been I've promised myself to out of this

whole situation better. Right, So, how can I be more fit? How can I get more organized? How can I And my wife helps because she starts to clean out the garage and then I have to finish the cleaning of the garage. Starting finishing. It's hard for me. But I think that having said all that, what I would say is, I'm excited to go on vacation. I'm with you, girl, I'm with you. Where do you want to go? Give any any big dreams? I mean, we live in Naples, but I want to go somewhere warm and on a

beach and somebody to deliver me cold water. Maybe without the kids, no kids, kids on vacation, on dogs, no kids, no people. Okay, So DM me when you find the perfect place. Because I'm more in the go on vacation mode, I find myself obsessing over you know, vacation pictures, pictures of the most beautiful destination is a little crazy. Last January went to Mirror Val in Tucson, Arizona. It's getaway destination place and we were setting intentions for we were

going to crush it. We didn't know that this would be the last vacation we ever took. Go and be with God. Folks, Amen, Mad, Sister Abbey, Hey Mad. To keep up with Abby and Glennon, follow them on social media and check out their websites. For Glennon, that's mamas Terry dot com, m O M A S T E r y dot com and you can find Abbey's website at Abbey Wampach w A M B A c h dot com. I've thought a lot about doing hard things

over the last year. My constant hard thing is to uh get up and keep going every day and the mets of this pandemic, which I'm really getting tired of. My friends, you know, I want to travel again. I want to eat in a restaurant again, and I'm determined that I'm not going to do that until it's absolutely safe to get out there. But boy, it's hard. And then, of course there were really hard things like standing up to continuing racial inequity and waging an election during a

pandemic and then protecting the outcome of that election. So to me, it's even more important that we try to do hard things and don't confuse the hard things like standing up to racism, standing up for democracy from things that are necessary but frankly not that hard, like putting

on a mask in the middle of a pandemic. I would love to hear stories from our listeners about how you do hard things or people you know who have done hard things and if you want to share a st ory, please send an email to You and Me Both pod at gmail dot com. You and Me Both

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