Bonus Episode: Our Next VP (with Kamala Harris)

in San Francisco. I knew her over the years when she was d A, once she was Attorney General, and I got very close to her sister, Maya Harris, who was one of the senior advisors on my campaign. And of course I'm thrilled that she is on the ticket with Joe Biden. I know a little something about the slings and arrows that have come her way in this role, because it's hard to be first, hard to be first anything. There's also, let's be honest, some sexism combined with racism.

But one thing I know is that Kamala is tough and she can handle it all, and she will be a vice president for all the people of our country. It's an absolute delight to have her on the podcast. Hi, Hi, Hi, Welcome to my brand new podcast. I know this is so exciting. Well, I'm thrilled. I know how busy you are, so we're gonna get right into it. I've been watching you out on the trail. I love the fact that you're out there and you're not only going to events,

you're you know, dancing with bands. You're really having a good time, Kamala, and you know that's to me half the battle. You know, get out there and be that happy warrior that you've always been. I want to start by, you know, talking about the experiences that led you to be where you are today. Obviously your experiences is in public service, in the public eye, but let's start before that. Tell me and tell our listeners about you know, your childhood,

and especially your formidable mother. I love reading about her, but I want to hear about her directly from you. Well, first, let me say I'm just thrilled to be with you, Hillary, and thank you for everything you are, everything you do, everything about you inspires me in so many ways. I can't begin to describe. So thank you so my mother. I mean, let me start by saying that I've only

known incredible and strong women like my whole life. There's like a whole collection of them who helped raise me. And as you have often said, a village does it right. Um. And so my mother, she was the eldest of my grandparents children, four children, and you know, she grew up at a time where she was expected to her accomplishments would be to get married and have children. But she wanted to study science and she wanted to cure cancer.

You don't know, lack of ambition there, she convinced my grandfather that one of the best schools to learn was u C. Berkeley, Without my grandfather knowing, actually she applied and got accepted and then informed my grandfather that this had happened. And this was in the nineteen fifties, and he said to his daughter, who at the time was nineteen, if this is what you want to do, then I

will not stand in your way. And so, having never been to the United States, my mother got on a plane at the age of nineteen by herself and arrived in Berkeley, California. And immediately, because of how she was raised and who she was, she just became attracted to the civil rights movement that was starting to really evolved in a very passionate way in Berkeley, and Oakland, California. And you know, my mother was all of five feet.

I joked that if you ever met her, you would have thought she was, you know, seven ft tall, but she I don't actually don't know if she was exactly five feet. She stood on her toes. Oh yeah, she she But she had a huge presence and she raised us, my sister Maya and I. She raised us with you know, certain principles, and one was that it is your duty. You know, not you're not being charitable or benevolent, it is your duty to concern yourself with the condition of

other people and to help them. And so it was never a debatable point. It was literally, you know, because duty is you know, for those of us who feel strongly about duty, it's not a choice. It is the price you pay, if you want to think of it as a price, but your responsibility for this place on earth that you occupy. You know, there's a great line from one of my mentors in life and work, marrying Wright Edelman, who always would say, services the rent you

pay for being on this earth. Hand. I sense that from you talking about your mom and when you think about her being nineteen and the fifties, she lived through the big transition in India. She saw the impact of the non violent Gandhian movement, and so coming to Berkeley and being attracted to, you know, the civil rights movement would just be a continuation for her. There's so many stories I could tell about her that have influenced who I am. My mother was a fighter for women her

entire life. Her specialty was breast cancer, and you know, before I was probably aware of it, I was hearing her passion for the importance of women receiving dignity and the health care system. And you know, it's hard to think now, Kamala, but your mother had to have been aware as she was doing her research into breast cancer that until the nineteen eighties, experiments for breast cancer were not even performed on women, And so she had to fight for the rights of the people that she was

really advocating on behalf of Oh, it was profound. I'll never forget one night she came home May and I often we were what you call last key kids, right, We'd come home after school and my mother would come home hours later. But when we came home after school, they were always fresh baked cookies. Oh my, but we were never allowed to eat dinner until after Walter Cronkite.

Pretty good rule, that's how it all worked. But I remember one night my mother came home and she was, oh, raging, match, raging, raging because you see, and to your point, a full mass ectomy had been performed on a woman and this person, I don't know if it was a doctor, I don't know who it was, but someone. Now this is gonna be very vivid. So this maybe should be the disclaimer for the audience. But on a metal tray, someone was

just walking around with this woman's breast. My mother was raging mad because it gets to the point about the dignity of women, right, and what she said, Now, this is going to get even more vivid, but I'm going to give it, she said, do you think that they would have walked around with a man's you know what without at least giving it the dignity of putting something over it or doing right right. Oh, I love your mother.

I love your mother. I mean, you know, I spent two years with your sister because MA was one of my you know, senior advisers, and you know I loved her and loved you. Now I love your mother and it's you know, all all part of the family. Do you think about how your mother mother you when you think about your your step kids, you think about Cole and Ella, you think about your nieces. Do you hear sometimes your voice sounding like your mother? Often? Often? I'm now at a point in my life where I have

fully embraced the fact that I've become my mother. I'm not rejecting it. It's not surprising me any longer. It's just what has happened. Well, you certainly inherited her love of cooking. I have, and it really is one of my joys. And it's you know, in each of us has a way that we express our love for me. Cooking is one of those things. And I love cooking with the kids. Sunday family dinner. It's like Sunday family dinner. There's no question that's what happens. You know, whoever is

in town comes over. You know, the kids help me cook, and it's you know, sometimes, depending on what's happening in my life, I'll start working on Sunday family dinner on Friday. You know. You also did tell me in a in a phone conversation recently you've been teaching your husband, Doug to cook, yes, so let's talk about that. So I remember our conversation just right after the pandemic hit, and I was ironing and folding during our conversation. I'll never

forget that, because we started having chores. And one of the things I realized about my husband that I had not realized before the pandemic hit is that clearly his mother never required him to clean his bedroom. So we had to have a little conversation about that, including me asking my mother in law why, And so then I realized, as much as I love to cook, cooking lunch and dinner seven days a week, it's a lot, right, And

so I we just had a conversation. I was like, honey, I need you to We're gonna have to figure this out. So he pulled the straws Wednesday and Saturday that would be his days. And then he was trying different things because you know, he was trying to be kind of impressed me and be a bit ambitious. But it kind of reached ahead when he was making something in the cast iron skillet and we're in the apartment and the fire alarm just started raging. The smoke was just I

could smell I started to smell it. I was I was reading my briefing book. I remember those days, and I started to smell it, and then I started to see it. And then there I am with my briefing book under the smoking detector, waving it back and forth, saying, Tom, Honey, turn off this stough and um. So we got to the point where now he agrees that he should just have three things that he perfects and does well and we don't need to experiment with anything else. I think

it makes perfect sense. We'll be back right after this quick break. You know, during these pandemic days, you know, people are discovering all sorts of things about their family members. And you know, I think about you going to college, going to Howard, then going to law school. What was your first job out of law school? My first job out of law school was in the Alameda County District Attorney's office. And why did you decide to become an

assistant district attorney? You know, I was born in Oaklan, California, which is at the heartbeat I think of Alameda County, which is a very large county. And you know, Hillary, there's not a black man, I know, be he a relative or a friend who has not been the subject of some form of racial profiling, unreasonable stop, or excessive force. And I grew up understanding the impact of law enforcement on the community in which I was raised, and I knew that it needed to be fixed. I experienced it.

It was a lived experience, and I said to my family, I said, you know, why is it that we traditionally you know, when we want to change these systems were on the outside. Shouldn't we also try and go on the inside. And that's why I decided to could do And you know, one could say I decided to go up the rough side of the mountain, but and it was about saying, look from the inside, we can have an impact. And the impact was, you know, it was varied.

The impact included that I specialized for a long time and child sexual assault cases that is so hard come alone. I mean, I did some cases. I ran a legal

aid clinic. I was very active and legal services. I would be appointed to cases by judges and those cases were so difficult, and honestly, it's the worse of human behavior because you are talking about children and the vast majority of the cases we're talking about someone who's in a position of trust with that child, right, And for me, it was always about trying to figure out a way to make the point that everyone deserves dignity in the system,

but also justice, and justice takes on many forms depending on the injustice. I for a long time, you know, worked on what we also needed to do around what I called sexually exploited youth, but the system called teenage prostitutes, which is that these girls mostly and boys would be arrested and put in juvenile hall. Meanwhile they're being trafficked, and we treat you know, John's and all of that

as though, you know, it's not a big deal. And so I actually, during my years, you know, early years, created a safe house in California, in San Francisco, so that if these kids were picked up, that they would go to the safe house, not to juvenile hall, and they would be given support. And so many of them were runaways, often thrown out of their homes or fleeing abuse in their own home, right, exactly, all of that, and we're calling them teenage prostitutes, you know. So it

was that work, it was the work of UM. I created one of the first environmental justice units of a d a's office in the country, because you know, I saw that the community that you will not be surprised, had a annual per capita income of families of fifteen thousand dollars was also the community where all the dumping was happening, right, And so taking on those polluters it was the work of of saying that we need to also,

you'll appreciate this more than many. I think that we have to incorporate the concept of redemption in what we do in the criminal justice system. And it's a the age old concept, right. It means essentially, you know, we all will make mistakes, and for some perhaps that rises to the level of being a crime. But it isn't it the sign of ad just in a civil society

that we allow people a way back? And so I created one of the first reentry initiatives in the country, focused on predominantly young men who were arrested for drug sales and getting them jobs and counseling, and a lot of them were young fathers, and getting them parenting support and then dismissing the charges against them. But you know, these were challenging days. This was in the early two thousand's.

People literally called my program a hug a thug program, but it ended up being a model and a model for the country. You were really ahead of your time in so many ways, both in Alameda County. Then when you went on to be the District Attorney for San Francisco, I think that's the first time I met you, and you brought the same level of you know, positive energy to what you wanted to see done in the d A office. And then obviously you went on to be

elected statewide in California to be the Attorney General. And you know, you've always, in my observation, tried to be on the side of the underdog. You've always tried to literally stand up for the dignity. And with the story that you just told about your mother, I see the through line and I so much appreciate that. And in the criminal justice system, you're right, that's hard, and we've

learned a lot of tough lessons. I mean, obviously, you know, there are bad guys and they've got to be punished, and you have to make sure that happens. But for the vast majority of people caught up in the criminal justice system, there other and better and more dignified ways to handle them. So when when you started your campaign for president. I remember you and I sat down in l a shortly before you made your decision. And now I'm thrilled that you're the part he's vice presidential nominee.

I'm so excited for you. And I think we've heard a little bit about you're getting the call from former Vice President Biden, but maybe you could take us behind the scenes about what happened when you did get the call. Well, you know, we'd all been hearing that he was close to making a decision, and you know, I've gone through a process, so I knew i was on the list. And then my team said, well, um, he's going to

call you today. They set up a call. They'd like to set it up for today, So I said okay, And then shortly thereafter, my team said, he wants to do a zoom And you know how you have zoom days, and you have those days that are not I do and you know, presumed days you gotta do your hair. You got exactly exactly, It's like it's another two hours, it could be right, So and this particular day was not a zoom day. Couldn't we just do a call?

You know, exactly exactly, and so I had to do some really quick, fancy footwork and and Doug was home because of course we're all working from home, and so we were pretty much non functional until you know, the the allotted time for the call, and so I went into our makeshift zoom room and Doug, I thought, was in the kitchen. So then I took the call. And you know, and you have to hand it to Joe and it's really it's it's part of what I love

about his character and his nature. Immediately at the beginning of the call Hillary, he went right in there and said, let's do this together. You know, he didn't build up to it, he didn't create the tension in it. He didn't, you know, talk for a while and then say said, he literally just right away, and obviously I was deeply humbled and honored. And he got Jill on his cell phone. She was at an event and so then she was on speaker as he and I were on the zoom.

And then she and Doug had bonded during the campaign during the primary. I love seeing them together. They're really they've been traveling together, they've been and um, and so she said, well, where is Doug and I, you know, shouted out his name, but of course Doug was actually airplanted on the other side of the door for him to come in. And he came in and we had the best conversation, just the four of us. And you know,

immediately that thereafter started packing and went to Delaware. The next morning, we're taking a quick break stay with us. I love the scene of you know, Doug and Jill out there and you and Joe joined, They're having a good time. It just looked right. So you haven't a debate coming up on October seven where you're facing off against Vice President Mike Pence. How are you preparing? What's

that feeling like? You know, it's some the difference between this debate and the debates and the primary are you know, many and in particular that then it was mostly about speaking up about my position on various issues as compared to my colleagues on the stage. This time it will be about, you know, requiring some level of knowledge, if not mastery, of Joe's record, the Vice President, Mike Pence's record, Trump's record, and then of course defending my own record.

So that's different in terms of the process. But I guess the biggest thing, just to be candid with you is to be prepared for what is I think very likely to be a series of untruths. I think you should be prepared, Yes, I think you should also be prepared for the slights, the efforts to diminish you, um you personally, you as a woman who's about to be our next vice president. So I do think that there will be a lot of maneuvering the other side to

try to put you in a box. It's on some levels surreal in terms of it all, and I don't necessarily want to be the fact checker. At the same time, you know, depending on how far he goes with whatever he does, you know he's gonna have to be accountable for what he says well, and you know he and Trump will say anything and assert anything like what a great job we did on the coronavirus, and you know people are sitting there going what is he talking about?

But you will be well prepared and before I don't know exactly the timing, but I think even before the debate, you may have a chance to be on the Judiciary committee examining this latest nominee to replace Ruth Bader Ginsburg. So you are really in an unusual historic position, the candidate for vice president who's a sitting senator on the Senate Judiciary Committee, questioning Judge me Cony Barrett. How does that,

you know, feel to you? And do you have any thoughts about, you know, losing Ruth Bader Ginsburg and watching you know, this president and the Republicans under McConnell, you know, trying to force through a confirmation in the face of an election just weeks away. You know, I was seated while she layand state just you know, a few days ago, and it's something I know you knew her and your

story and her story are very intertwined. I looked at that casket, Hillary, and you know, she was such as in size small, and I looked at that casket and there was, without any question and inverse relationship between her size and her stature. Oh that's great. That's a great way.

I mean, and I and I just couldn't help but think about the life that she lived, and you know, I think it does a disservice to suggest us that she just gained popularity, you know, after the notorious RBG kind of moniker, because it was her whole life, her whole life, and she did what you and I know is required of lawyers who are fighting for civil rights. She built up a pathway for so many women, and

she did it brick by brick, case by case. She had the patients and the foresight and the fortitude to build it up and see it through. That's exactly right, right, exactly what a life we lived. It was interesting. The rabbi, and speaking that day as she lay in state, said along the lines of she earned the right to rest

in peace. Right. Well, you know, Bill and I went to the Supreme Court to pay our respects there, and you know we had a lot of time to talk before we got there about the impact that she made. And your description is so on point, because when she

started there was no guarantee. She saw wrongs that she wanted to help rectify, and she was in pursuit of justice and equality, plain and simple under the Constitution, and she wanted to make sure that under the fourteenth Amendment, disadvantage discrimination based on sex would also be part of the scrutiny that courts were supposed to give to any

discrimination of any kind based on race. Right. And so when I think of her, I think of her as a mighty warrior, even though she was, as you rightly say, you know, a petite woman, but a woman with enormous energy and conviction that carried her through. You know, she's now well known for her dissents, which means that she

lost a lot of important cases. But I remember her saying once that she'd hoped that her descents would serve as you know, a guiding light to future courts when they saw the injustice that had remained because of the majority opinion. So I really like the way you've described her. And I know you've got to get back on the campaign trail, so I can't keep you much longer, but you know, when you want to stay and talk to

you forever, that would be fine with me. But I know what it's like to, you know, have nervous, nervous people, you know, standing there pacing, you know, their heart beating. Let's end on by wrapping up Justice Ginsburg and your journey. You know, she broke a lot of barriers for women, and we have a lot of barriers, as you know so well. You know that are are still before us. But I believe you're on the brink of putting you know,

one of the biggest cracks in that glass ceiling. How does it feel for you, Kamala, Because I was thinking about Ruth Vader Ginsburg when she used to say, you know, what's the difference between an accountant in Brooklyn and the Supreme Court justice one generation? You know what's the difference between a committed young scientist and the next vice president one generation? Reflect on that for me, you know both the responsibility, but you know the pure joy of going

where no one's gone before. I mean, you can speak volumes about this in terms of your personal experience, well sure, but it's building on it. It's like what you're saying with Ruth, It's like one brick at a time. And you know, my experience I think has you know, paved the way for others. Uh, And that any question, without any question. Your experience has paved the way for me and so many others without any question. But we have to keep going. Yeah, and you have to keep going.

But you know, one of the things that you do, among the many things, is you have always I will speak from myself, encouraged me and just been so supportive with advice, with just with warmth, and as you know, none of us achieve these these moments, and none of us achieve our success without people who believe in us. And so in that way, that's very humbling because there are a lot of folks who are part of this moment. There is that village. Yes, really it is, and it

is it continues throughout your life. But I do also feel the weight of responsibility. You know, as my mother would say, you may be the first to do many things. Make sure you're not the last. I love that. Keep those doors open, I mean, and that's what you do. Hillary, You really do. You have earned the right to just say I'm done, have fun with it everyone. I've beautiful

grand babies. I'm good. That's true, I do, and you keep giving and I just I can't not say that because it needs to be said, and I want to say it. It's it's among the many things that are

very special about you. That is one of them. Well, thank you, my friend, and I'm looking forward to the debate, I'm looking forward to the Judiciary Committee, I'm looking forward to the rest of the campaign, and I am really looking forward to seeing you stand up there and get sworn in as the next vice president of the United States. So thank you. For taking some time to join me on You and Me Both today and take good care of yourself. We really need you, my friend. Thank you, Hillary,

It's great to be with you. Bye bye bye. You and Me Both is brought to you by my Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help from Whoma Aberdeen, Nikki e Too, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Valmorrow. Our engineer is Zach McNeice. Original music is by Forest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, don't keep it to yourself, tell a friend. You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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