Waleed Aly and The Empire Strikes Back

Good Day, Welcome to you Ain't Seen Nothing Yet the movie podcast, where I chat to a movie lover about a classic or beloved movie they haven't quite got around to watching until now. And today's guest on our fiftieth episode is my mate broadcaster Wally Laly.

Do you any think you have a chance against us? Said mister Cowboy.

Too, Infinity and beyond wax on, right hand, wax off, left hand, wax on, wax off, haven't.

A right don't see nothing here?

It's Gold LOGI winner Walkley winner Whalid r Lee returns that you ain't seen nothing yet. Now, if you're in Australia, you probably well you definitely know who Walid Ali is. He's one of the most important voices in our media landscape. You know him from the Project Offside as his podcast The Minefield, also his columns for Fairfax newspapers around the country. He is one of the most thoughtful, considered person people

Hey there, my name is Willie Ali, and my next three favorite films are The Godfather Part two, My offer is dead Nothing, the Castle.

It's called a home, your dickhead.

And Malcolm X.

We are a Nichan, the tribe of Shabbas lost in this wilderingness called North America.

But up until now I had never seen the Empire strikes back.

Yes, the celebrations haven't lasted long for Luke Skywalker and the rebellion as Darth Vader's Empire wastes no time in striking back. Yes, the title makes sense almost immediately in the follow up to the biggest movie of all time, which they do by producing arguably the greatest sequel of our time, Godfather Part two.

Has it pipped in my opinion, We can discuss that very soon.

My leap owhen Kershner, George Lucas's old film school teacher, takes over the reins and produces a darker installment with perhaps the biggest twist in movie history. As a real gut kicker to Luke Skywalker and to us the audience, the whole gang is here as well as a curious little green guy who will endear himself to movie audiences for years to come.

Ali Walid, Yoda, did you enjoy?

I'd like I like that. Enjoy that I did? I did like Yoda? Do you know what caught me last time?

I listened back to our last episode when you what Star Wars on.

The first so I forgotten all this and you were.

Expecting you were like, where's Yoda? Yes, Yoda?

Where is Yoda?

I know?

And then he appears. Can I say something about the appearance of Yoda? Yes, I was not expecting that when he first appeared he would be this sort of weird mix of Fuzzy Bear and Gonzo and Kermit the Frock.

Yeah.

Yeah, but he's a bit bumbling and a bit selfish and just almost a bit desperate, like give me that food and whatever. It's comical, yes, but it's like, oh well this, I was like, what happened to Yoda? And then when he says, oh you want Master Yoda? I go ah, okay, So this is like a species and he's just another one of these species who happens to look like Yoda because he's the same species. And now

I assume iver seinmed it was a facade.

And because you know, you suspect that Yoda, nothing happens by a chance.

No controls everything probably looks to arrive.

Yes, so he's being playful. It's a little test of ken Skywalker handle this. You know he's going to bail or the very first opportunity he can't find Yoda or this is who he's dealing with. But I do find the transformation from bumbling into I'm the guy. Yeah happens, and I'm there for it, like I completely believe it.

But it's instant.

Yes.

So so this led me to the other thing theory that I was wondering about is does something come over him? Is Yoda actually a spirit rather than a body? And then at some point Yoda turns up in this body?

Right, So what we're watching the beginning is the.

Vessel, yes, and a different person, a different being, and then Yoda just sort of is downloaded and suddenly this new thing.

We don't see bumbling Yoda again in the galaxy at all.

It's such a I mean, that's a spoiler, but that is such It is such a weird thing, don't you think it is?

And I haven't again.

And what I loved about our last chat was you were able to bring some new perspectives the Star Wars. I suspect it was a way of introducing him to trick the audiences and thinking, okay, well exactly, like the trick works definitely, you know, because you're like, who is this guy this is not the guy that this master Yoda, that we're the Jedi trainer. Surely he's not the teacher for Luke Skywalker. And then yeah, the way it actually, I think reveals itself to me. The mastery of frank

Really.

Yeah.

So there's been more recent debate about CGI and characters and how they can e motion capture kind of characters. Should they be nominated, you know, But I'm sure the time will come.

I'm not sure if one has been.

I might be wrong, but in nineteen eighty for a puppeteer to be nominated was probably a bridge too far for the Academy. So I think we'll no doubt speak a lot more about Yoda and many more things about Empire Strikes Back.

Obviously, before we leave it, they can ask you a question.

Is there an official explanation for what I've observed here?

Is there as why Yoda waseah?

Is there a canonical version of this or is it just purely up to the speculation of the audience.

The only explanation I've got is that obviously is very old and he's having a senior moment. Sure, okay, because he's like he's like I think in this, I think he's like five or for maybe four hundred years old in this.

Well, no, he said he trained someone for eight hundred years.

He's already older.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever it was.

He's very old. He's very old, so he's allowed to have these moments.

I get that. I don't know in his species how old old is maybe the average life span three thousand years. I don't know. Maybe he's just coming into adult.

But what is there?

There's the thing where C three pos got that it looks like a pen whatever it is, I can't remember now. It's like a laser type whatever, and he wants it, Yoda wants it back off him, and he's just kind of unable to get it. It's like mine, it's mine, and you can't. And I'm like, this is your guy. He just make it levitate and come to you like what's this and which, of course he then later does with the.

Well, I guess he's but I think if he's still testing Luke to an.

Agree that he's not going to use his powers in front of him to reveal himself.

Yes, well he definitely buries them.

Yes, yeah, he's a little bit of old guys in the Muppets.

It's totally Muppets. Everything about it is the Muppets. He's a new Muppet.

Yeah, apparently, frank Ers because there were a time when Mark Hamill had struggled a little bit, like you know, and this is this is all quite revolutionary. I mean when you get told that a new character you're going to be spending pivotal scenes with is going to be a puppet back in nineteen you know, he would have been told this in pre production so late seventies, like that's part of you, Okay, what house is going to work?

We have your favorite interview ever was is still Elmo.

But yeah, he struggled at times with it, and Frank Ez would bring along to entertain him Miss Piggy and with this, and eventually it's like, come up, let's get me Miss Piggy out and do a quick five minutes tight five for Mark Hamill.

Just to keep his spirits up.

But there's more to chat about Yoda and the training at the Daggabar system. But I want to go back to your next three films. Great films, Great films. The Castle has.

Come up a lot.

We interviewed Steve Curry when he spoke pretty extensively about his experiences on The Castle, which is great, but it's it's.

Come up so many times. Sorry, no no.

I love when there's a new film that comes up, but I equally love when there's repeat business.

Can I the reason it happened? Full disclosure. I didn't know I'd have to choose three more this time, so I've had to cobble this together very quickly. But I also just watched The Castle for the first time on the weekend. No no, no, no, no no. I watched it when it came out. Weirdly, it came out ninety seven, which is the year I started law school, and I remember studying constitutional law in ninety eight so you can only imagine just how many Castle references there were in that class.

Well, I'm going to go once that further and say the Castle was such a great influence on you, It drove you.

Yes, there's no doubt, there's no without that. Who knows you are a great deal, I definitely do. It has to be also the greatest constitutional law film of all time, doesn't it in Australian cinema.

Yes, yes, I'm trying to think of the others.

Well, it's got them beaten by so much an even worth a contemp point not a contest. So I actually just watched it because my eldest is in year twelve and he's doing legal studies and the legal studies teacher said you should watch The Castle. Wow, So it became homework. So I was like, oh great. And the thing I loved about it was it's just as it's better than

I have the Holy Trilogy of Australian comedies for Me at the Castle and no particularly ordered to be honest with the Castle, Crocodile Dundee and Murial's Wedding right, and all three of them are infinitely quotable.

And they stand up, yes, all three of them. Yes, So I don't think I've seen Crocodile Dundee or Mural's.

Wedding's wedding stars up really well, that's still really funny. He's got that added bonus of you know, it's it's Tony Collett and Rachel Griffith's Bill Hunters, one of our all time great actors. But Dan Wiley is in it. Julia Zamiro gave me Millgate, and it's got people you know who have gone on to become bigger names. And it's always fun but just so quotable, so funny and Crocodile Dundee. Some people have differing opinions on there's a

Now.

Paul Hogan defends it by saying, yeah, but this is a guy who has come from the out back.

Elevators are weird to him.

So this kind of idea that this could be happening is confusing. And he you know so anyway, but the Castle I watched recently and and I was because Sam Hag hadn't seen amazingly oh yeah episode.

Actually that's really amazing that he hadn't seen it.

Given that work with working Doug Guards the last fifteen years.

It's it's it's amazing and and I would say reasonably insulted. So and so when I was watching it again, and I had watched it since I watched it many times over the years, but maybe before then, maybe it was like eight or so years. So and because also simply shot, you do wonder if it was going to date. But I had the same reaction as this going he just doesn't because it's so well written, it's so many jokes. The performances are great. Steve Carries gives one of the great comedic performance.

It's really underrated his performance, I think, or maybe it isn't. Maybe I just underrated because when you watch it, it's all about Darryl Carrigan. Yeah, right, and so Michael Katin's just this amazing but it's such a great performance, and from the minute you see him, you just fall in love with him, and there's not a moment where you lose

No, I mean, it's I think it's an un rated.

Role and that people know that that character is really funny in that really funny movie. But I think I think what maybe people underestimate is the performance of it, which is slightly two different things, you know, and and he doesn't.

You're absolutely right, he doesn't overplay it.

And the pride he takes in I dug a hole is just so beautiful. But also he is there's a warmth to him as well. They don't, they don't cake on the emotion through through him. He's narrating it. We know that, but and you know he does speak about his you know, this complete love and unconditional love he has for his family. So there's a warmth that without it being kind of sackering, you know, at any point. And I mean, he's wanting to know what movies Sophiely

Actually, yeah, so do I.

In fact, I was talking to Susan as Susan wasn't really watching it, she was just floating in and out. But Chelsea knows it very well, and she just made an observation which I think I agreed with, which is it's actually a really interesting and good as well as sympathetic meditation on class in a way that you don't see anymore because we don't really do class. We don't do class actually in politics really, and we don't do class in our public discourse very much because class has

A lot better.

But in the end, the portrayal of a lot of that educated class isn't particularly sympathetic, like the lawyer in the High Court for the other side. And if I ask you, who are the people whose character you actually admire in this, it's basically Bud Tingwell and this family and Daryl Kerrigan, at least that's the way I say it. And so they're uncomplicated, but they have a kind of moral depth about them which you just don't see very often.

I love the fact that this was a floating observation by Susan as she walked through the room.

As you were watching the castle.

I embellished a little bit of it. I should have identified the point at which she stopped down. It's just a snapshot. It's a window onto how our house works.

Bridgemy walk past and gone? Is that? Eric Bannett?

Oh, can I say, by the way, while we're talking about the representation elements, and I don't know if this is a popular view or not. I quite like the representation of wogs in.

This film, right, Okay, yes.

I do, even though there are obvious things like for clearly is not Lebanese and speaks like a Greek, not like a Lebinar. Right, it's just not very obvious to me. But there's something again, very sympathetic and almost dignifying about

Yeah, it is a credit to the airline.

Yes, yes, it's all those sort of clothes and I know those people.

Well this that that felt exactly how my my year level felt at school, like because there were the wogs and there were the skips, you know, and and there was absolute like affection towards each other, even though they would have to go up and play play soccer and go and play you know, a f l an occasionally you know, and some would you know, cross over, and it was all there was like a friendly competitiveness in a way, but there was absolute there was no tension

Level, for every school.

This is just my I can speak on my experience, and it was it was it was kind of we found joy in sometimes. Yeah, the way they had better lunches than we did. We had crappy lad wrap sandwich and they come with their tublewee containers full of pasta dishes and stuff, and you know, it was hilarious and we were envious. But that kind of like you know Darryl saying, you know, what is it with wogs and cash? That kind of stuff felt like the kind of observations

Don't feel like Daryl's having a go there, No, I think it's just bewildered. How do you drag out like this? But you know, but the other thing is I can tell you that wogs have exactly that conversation about themselves.

Yeah, it's just it's just.

Of course it's cash, that's the way, you know.

Less.

So after COVID, we.

Best move on from the castle and let's talk about well, my favorite film of all time and the only movie I would say as a sequel Topples the film we're about to discuss and the Empire strikes Back is Godfather Part two.

What a film.

It is a great film. I will say my recollection of detail will probably be a bit sketchy because I've only seen it once and it was actually during the to say it was just last year, Yeah, during the big lockdown. So Susan and I had this thing where she just said, hey, let's just watch all those classic films that we never watched and I think we watched two and I know three, three, Godfather which I've never seen, Yes, Godfather Part two, Yes, which I've never seen, Citizen Kane,

End of Yoda.

But he I think there's just something. There's so much charisma. It's incredibly magnetic performance. But it's not he's not screaming at you. It's perfectly distilled, it's perfectly pitched. It's it's it's understated in a perhaps even in a Dale Harrigan sort of a way. And then and then Robert de Niro turns up and just what a performance.

It's what elevates it for me that you get to these two amazing performances.

I think Bachino is better than de Niro.

I think de Niro kind of does this in his slyp To be honest, I don't think it's a particularly demanding role that's interested he's playing.

Yeah, that might be true, but there's still so much restraint in it. There is there is what I mean something.

And we've gone, we've gone.

What I love about particularly watching Pacino, we've gotten particularly more than a de Niro got into that kind of who are stage in his career of a woman kind of you know stage and post that where it's so restraints seeing him from the first film into you know, and then you know, there are moments in the second and and and then the third where you do see him the bursts of anger come out, but it's earned and it's not you know, you know where he's come from,

It's a moment yes, because it's like, oh.

God, yeah, yeah, well if you started, if al Pacino makes Godfather, you know, in twenty twenty one, he's saying the French for a couple, I've got some ideas.

Yeah, yeah, but I feel like that's true with both of them. Like if I probably more DeNiro than Pacino, but if I close my eyes and imagine those two actors and what's quintessential about them, you actually imagine them being quite big or at the very least very threatening or like something like that. DeNiro is not.

Here's an ordinary guy, yeah.

Who just makes one decision after another, and eventually those decisions become lethal. Yeah, but without a change in his demeanor, his facial expression even really it's just it's just this is the inevitable path that he kind of follows.

Yeah, I feel like DeNiro, Yeah, he wasn't. He didn't, he didn't seek hour. It just kind of he saw something that was wrong, he did something about it, and then that just led to and we see the Domino effects a whole.

Lot of wrong stuff.

Yeah.

But would you say the same as true of Pacto's character.

Well, yeah, I guess you could argue if Sonny, Sonny doesn't get shot down at the toll booth and and and you know, his dad doesn't get shot the attempted assassination and on the street then he may stay where he was. Yeah, it's it's such a fascinating a film. And John gizl As as Fraido did that just did it break your heart?

Yeah?

I think so.

I mean this scene that the news evening, Yeah, you know I knew it was you Yeah, yeah, just and then when you know, you know what's going to happen.

Yes, that is you know, maybe that's the secret behind the Godfather is it's a genuine tragedy in the Greek sense. So like the idea of Greek tragedy was that you had these characters who had a fatal flaw and they would become tragic characters. But the thing about Greek tragedy was that that their tragic end was inevitable. It's not that this could have been prevented, it's this is fate. This is just the way that And I feel like that's kind of the maybe that that's what makes god

And the idea that Michael Collone, who is supposedly all about family and the Colleanes have always been all about family with actually ordered the assassination of now his only brother. It's just it's so dark. It's amazing. You should watch three?

Should I? I'm a bit I watched a recent franch for Coppler is recent First, Yes see that.

I find this very well.

You said, there's no you know, it's not quite like the Star Wars the Battle of Each Order. You watched the film Gym. It's the same film, but it's just the I can't I do find this. I really enjoyed recently watching The Coder, which is part three. So and full disclosure, it was in preparation to interview Francis for Coppola.

So is that the greatest moment of you?

That when I got that email saying are you free? To interview fand for a couple you know occasionally, Yeah, we get those opportunities and you know, yeah, well, yes, I don't even have to check.

My I remember how excited I was that you were getting to do that.

Yeah.

So, but this is my worry is if I watch the new cast or whatever you call it, am I denying the only chance I really have to watch the trilogy?

And then the way the counterpoint to that is this is frends for Coupler's vision. I wonder if you watched it the the original version first, and you are denying yourself to see Coppler's vision as he intended.

So I have a unique opportunity that very few others have.

Exactly right.

It's a good point. I'll have to think about this.

Let us know how you go. Malcolm X.

Yes, just a nice, little breezy, little light reading like reading. So I watched Malcolm X. I think when it came out, I think it was a bit above me. I didn't quite understand it all, Yeah, I must. I haven't gone back to revisit it, and I've been enjoying learning through TV more about Malcolm X. Through the series. I'mously you've seen the Godfather of Harlem. Oh no, I haven'tly It's quite quite fascinating through that, So I'll be keen to go back and watch Malcolm X.

So Denzel Washington as Malcolm X.

Yes, who was incredible Spike Lee film. Obviously first film I ever saw in the movie theater that had an intermission.

Oh, was so remarkable.

I wasn't expecting it. It's like three hours twenty or something.

It's a very long That's why I haven't gone back in the movie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, And to be fair, I haven't watched it for a very long time. I watched I started watching it again last year and got maybe half hour an hour in or something, and then something happened the way and I suspect if I watched it now, I wouldn't be It probably wouldn't make this list. I could probably go it's not blowing me away, But for me, this is a nostalgic call, or maybe a contemporaneous call. So I watched it was ninety three. I reckon when

He's almost lost in the shadow of Martin Luther King, wasn't he like it felt from my perspective that I knew. I felt like I knew it quite a bit about Martin Luther King, you know, the circumstances of his assassination through you know, also, I was a youtwo fan, so you know we had pride.

Yeah of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So and then I remember when Malcolm X came out, I was like, who's this guy?

Yeah?

Yeah, And you know, if well, here we can get into an endless political argument about this, one version of that would be well, of course, Martin Luther King is the more celebrated figure because he's the more palatable figure to white people, right, whereas Malcolm X was more hardline, much more militant. But I think that reading probably overlooks a couple of things. Yeah, I think that underplays Martin

Do right in Godfather parm He's part of that, yeah, of course, and he's trying to He's also using Muhammad Ali to kind of like who.

Makes the same journey? Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so there's a like, all the focus on Malcolm X's life is really on that notion of Islam period really, and I can completely understand that because that's sort of the height of his activism and particularly the more militant aspects of his activism, but his whole life journey, you can't leave out the bit where he leaves that behind, right, So he goes to the pilgrimage and Mecca. Only Muslims can

Right.

He's part of this group that theologically would hold all kinds of positions that are completely opposite of Islamic teaching, including having a new prophet and all sorts of just stuff that is just not at all part of the traditional Islam. So anyway, he goes there, but he's blown away by this experience of going to Mecca and seeing the whole world gathered. They're all different races and so on, unified by something, and it changes his perspective on things

It's interesting because we have because as a when when this came out, this old have been eighteen but leading into you know, hearing about the film maybe things that as they do arising books and you know, before the movie gets released, you know, hearing Martin Malcolm X. It was very much Martin Luther King did it one way and which is a non violent way, and Malcolm xit the other way, which.

Is the violent way. And that was what you were told.

And you would think Spike Lee, and we often speak on edit or even more so off air about there's no room for nuance in today's commentary, but you would think you would hope that someone like Spike Lee would find time in the three and a half hour film to have more nuance.

And I think he does. This is the thing, you know, I think his final transition is really powerful, like right, you know, there's scenes of him on HUDJ in Mecca are there that that full story is told, and then obviously right up to the point where he gets assassinated you. So, yeah, I don't put any of this on Sparkley, you know, I think, And like I say, I walked away turbo charged by this film. Like you imagine Year nine, I'm

You know.

It's probably my only real moment of rebellion at school was I decided I'd just wear it at school, even though caps weren't allowed, and I remember being told off about that. I was.

Headline.

Yeah, I think it was the day I decided to do that was either the anniversary of his birthday or his death, I can't remember.

And it was schedule closed days.

I mean, there was a whole lot it was where your cap the school day? But that's not let's leave that out, you know. And I definitely related to the kind of you know, more rebellious, radical streak in him, which, especially when you're in year nine, is there's something very appealing about that, especially when you grow up as a

So we spoke.

We had Diane and Ewan Vietnamese, a strange woman who actress fantastic a couple of weeks ago, and we spoke about, you know, the Asian representation on screen and seeing you know, how big Bruce Lee was in her family because you know, her dad said this is look this is us, you know, and how exciting that.

Was for Muslims. What you know, what a Muslim seeing on screen that reflect their experiences for them?

Yeah, not much, I mean, and again Muslims is a very broad category, so there are subsets within it. So I think Arabs in particular, who you know, there are obviously a lot of Christian Arabs as well, but Muslim Arabs especially because the whole terrorism thing, I think Arab depiction on screen has tended just to be that, which is one of the reasons. Also I quite like for Rick in the Castle because he's prepared to play with

You would expect.

It's totally horrific.

So that was the representation for a very long time, and then it's you started starting to see things. So like a show like Rami, which I think divides Muslims actually because some of the way it tackles some sorts of issues, but there's no doubt it's a form of representation.

Four lines?

Four lines?

Three lines? Is the name? The name of the football team, the Englis football team, three Lions, with Riz Ahmad and so on. I know a lot of really loved that because it was in a dark period. It's the war on terror, and here is a terrorism comedy film and showing this sort of bumbling group of homegrown terrorsts who just can't do anything right. But they sort of look like and sound like some of the people that we know in the way that just the level of naivity

But I didn't spot one in the Empire strikes back, that's for sure.

Can I say one thing though, I am convinced that Jedi are based on particular Islamic Sufi groups, And this is a big thing actually in the Muslim community. Even the robes they wear they're very Moroccan. So if you go down that whole. Yeah, I think you'll find a lot.

Well, I think George Lucas did take from a variety of like he went shopping, he went, he went, you know, there's there's like almost some Samurai kind of stuff in there as well, you know, and so it would.

Not surprise me if he's borrowed some stuff there. Absolutely.

Yeah.

I don't think Yoda he's got more of a Buddhist vibe.

Possibly possibly does he ever articulate a theology?

Well, he's he's it's all, it's just Jedi. Yeah, that's his, and that's his religion, that's his.

He's the census thing a few years ago.

Yeah, you under started that.

All right, Let's okay, let's let's say we have a quick break and then we'll come back and chat about Empire strikes Back.

All right, mate, I want to know what do you think of it?

I enjoyed it.

I did. Enjoyed it.

I did. I'm trying to figure out whether I prefer this or Star Wars, right, And it's really hard to compare because I come to Star Wars completely cold. So a whole lot of stuff is being introduced, and I quite enjoy that process. I would say, and this is based purely on a first watch in Fire Strikes Back feels more like an action film, right than a narrative film,

Yes, it's funny because this is almost like a Star Wars film compared to the other ones in reverse, like you have. It starts quite bombastic and the Empire are striking back on Hearth and the Rebels get blown out of Harth, and it's very action heavy at the start, but then it becomes much more personal.

There's no there's no battle sequence, yes, and that's true.

In the end, it becomes about the small intimate scenes withd Hahn getting betrayed and then and then the carbon freeze and then the revelation between Luke and Darth. So it becomes you know, it's it becomes a Lindy Body endivisuy.

Yeah, Actually that's probably a good observation. Maybe I formed that view that I had early on. It was like, oh god, it's all action seqences, but the reason I raise it, and this is entirely on me, is I'm a very bad action watcher.

You mentioned this in their last time.

Yeah, so when I see action sequences, my brain just seems to switch off. And then when there's dialogue again, I'm like, oh okay. So I found it hard to get into until it reached that aspect of it. There were bits that were cool, like you know when they tie the cable around those big machines so they fall over and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, things like that were pretty cool. I really like the asteroid belt stuff.

Yeah.

I love C three Po's constant use of probability.

I made a note of that because it's one of the great thing. Is what a great tool to have, you know that you've invented yourself to have a character point out the stakes.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

To the audience.

So yeah, we know okay, and we already have a sense that this is heading into danger. But for three PO to kind of say, well, these are the actual.

Odds, yeah, yeah, which is not helping anybody. I mean, I suppose it's because he's trying to advise against it, isn't it. Yes, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid because it is approximately three seven hundred and twenty to one. Never tell me, be Eydes, but I quite like those that sort of little thing because yeah, you're right, maybe that's what it was. And I hadn't really figured out

I'm well, I mean, yes, there's that, but there's also the betrayal at Cloud City and the carbon freeze. But that's why what I got out of this, and I had watched it for a while. I've always said Empire is my favorite Star Wars. I said, bound to watch it the kind of thing. Okay, have I just been saying it for so long that I just kind of believe it is, or it's time to challenge that again by watching it again for the first time.

It's probably ten years and I loved it.

I was just totally into it, really enjoyed every minute of it.

But what got me from the start was the economy.

I'm always interested when somebody does a sequel, how they reintroduce the characters again. Sometimes it feels a bit ham fisted, it feels a bit forced. But I thought the economy of how we kind of reunite with the gang, it was really good.

Luke.

You know, it's almost immediately you know, has his hands tied with the the womper?

Yeah?

Is that?

And but what, by the way, was the point of that whole episode?

Well, possibly just an action that there's there's a rumor that Mark Hamill, between the filming of Star Wars and New Hope and then by strikes Back was involved in a car accident was a reasonably serious and there was a rumor that was to cover like a scar that he had. George Lucas has denied that, saying the scar was barely visible by the time they started to shooting. But I do wonder if you're writing and you know this has happened, it seems a reasonable coincidence.

And he does get slashed across the chief yeah, and you know.

So.

I watching it again.

You know, this is you know, forty years ago, now forty one years ago this film was released. I think you could have gotten more tension out of that Wamper scene. Even when he's trying to get his lightsaber. He gets in reasonably like reasonably good time to kind of.

Like yeah, like the womer should have got.

Closer to him as a you know, just it could have maximized the tension and that. But this, you know, the characters Luke, he's in the blizzard and he gets caught Hahn saying goodbye. He's explained that he's got to go pay off Jaba. He has a fight Layer and then R two and three po informed that Hahn informed Hard that Luke is missing, and so Hahn goes off looking for Luke. And what I like about this is it it reminds us that Hahn actually cares. He's not

Only bits and pieces. I've seen a few episodes here.

And there, but okay with it made not mean as much as it might to us. But you probably won't recognize the voice. But won't you?

I want to play you a bit and see if you do recognize this voice at all, Your.

Highness, there's nothing more we could do to name the shielders must be closed, close the doors.

Yes, sir, do you recognize that voice?

Don't sure?

That is the voice of Cliff Claven himself from Cheers John Ratzenberger.

Yes, how is that his voice?

Well?

John Ratzenberger is almost in every Pixar film, but he's almost a lucky charm. He's well, yeah, so he's obviously a great voice actor. So the voice we hear as Cliff Claven in Cheers for over you know, twelve years over long that to come Ran Ran, it's him, you know, it's it's him.

It's him acting.

That's amazing because when I think of his voice, I think it's like JUGGI Bear. Yeah, like he would do a great Yogi beart.

Yeah, I know, he's got very in Cheers at least, Clif's a very distinctive action and voice so yes, one for the cheers fans.

This is for the TV podcast that you're about. What do you mean you haven't watched?

You watch every episode of something before you come in and then we'll discuss it. I think I love this also because this is one of the few films Star Wars films where Tatooine is not involved, particularly when this film was made. It's the first one that didn't involve Tatouoin Luke's home planet and an Anakin's home planet. So I like this the aesthetic this we we saw half basically, when you think of Empire, you think of Hearth, you think of the Dagabar swamp, and you think of cloud City.

Because that's it. That's pretty much it, apart from the stars bit.

That's yea the stars and then you know.

And it felt like a very deliberate choice to me because the first first one is a desert and it's just playing with different extremes.

Right, Yes, And I think Luks George Lucas believed that he wanted to make everybody. He wanted to challenge the art department. He thought it's harder to cheat action sequences in snow. That's interesting white background, so I wanted to kind of set that challenge for them.

So this comes back to my I don't know if I said this last time or not, but I do feel like the primary appeal of Star Wars remains esthetic that if you imagine watching this as a kid, and I think in a way, these are kids films, yes.

Yes, and everyone should remember that when they.

Watch Yeah, when they're watching it as twenty years later, yeah, yeah, And so part of me imagines that as I'm trying to watch it and go, Okay, so what does twelve year old me think as I'm watching this and I even get moments of it, like at the very start where that the introductions scroll through, I kind of felt this weird nostalgic excitement even though I'd never watched this film, because it was to me it's the same era as Christopher Reeves Superman, right, and it's like, oh my god,

Well even in the scroll on those it says like the evil lord Darth Vader. Now, if this was a film directed at adults and you know, then they're not pointing out, you know, Darth Vader is evil from because we've seen that the prequel. It's just that language even suggests.

It's a good versus evil situation. You shouldn't be looking for nuanced complexity and all these characters, although the Father Something maybe has a little bit. But yeah, So I think the principle appeal is aesthetic, which I think really works because the thing about Hoth is it's so uncomfortably cold, but it is great to look at, but the minute you look at it, you're feeling something because of the

Well, I've spoken about it before on this podcast in the seventies, and this is eighty, so you know it gets released in eighty There's get in a map like yeah, they about the Jaws. Yeah, like they kill the shark and then they don't even show the reunions. When they get back to the they kill a shaking their swimming back and it's credits, you know, So I think also they probably know this is this is an entree, Like

Layer and Hahn are having their kind of bust up.

And and they're yelling matching the corridors there and as that's kind of happening, a Womper is trying to get in, and I think it ends with three PO.

Hahn and Laid don't go in.

I think three pair of warns them not to go into that that door, not to open that door because that's the other prison cell. Don't open the door, Yeah, and then three PO takes off the office science and do not enter and then walks away. And the storm trip is going because the storm ships are invading and dart Vade is also invading on the and all the has been taken out. I also just want to play a quick grab of Layer and Hahn because that that

I'm working.

I can arrange that.

Chance.

This're so busy door.

You haven't learned how to be a woman.

I could have helped you, but it's too late. You pick up Tu and he's flying out of here, sweetheart.

Right now, I.

Think I can survive.

Good luck.

I don't care about all those people depending on me.

Please don't tell me about the rebellion again.

Don't you think about anything else. I'm sorry what you call is this plot?

And you think if you're the one to buy some I.

Could, but I'm not really interested anymore.

We'll meet again.

Maybe by then you'll have warmed up a little.

You have all the breeding of the band, just as much a chup joy. I think there was a desire to because obviously that there's more tension to be had with the Wompers, and if they're invading the base, and there's a scene where like one of them.

Is pretty puts his claw or through the through the wall, but.

There must have been a desire to move this story on quicker than they had And and and you know, you always remember that they're shooting on film, so.

Yeah, you can't just do it over and over and over.

Yes, yeah, and also they don't nessarily see exactly what they've gone. They had monitors, I should they had monitors back then, but they also that they were shooting in Norway. Yeah, I imagine a rebel base was probably done in England where they shot. Yeah, maybe when they got back they may have seen the wamp that womper and look seen and gone. We probably could of had him get a little bit closer.

Or maybe not. I don't know, but there certainly obviously a desire to move this story along.

Yeah, but that's what made me bewildered by the start of it. So it was like like, I s you've set up this big thing, looks lost in the thing, and then it serves no purpose in the rest of the story, and the climax to it is over. Kind of like that, now your scar thing makes perfect sense. That makes a lot more sense of it. But I think the weirdest thing I find about Star Wars is

It certainly never felt slowed lights of late to me watching it, watching it. When I watched it, did you watch it? I don't think I watched it in the cinema. I think I spade about this last time I had I almost had revisionism, where I assumed I watched all the Star Wars films in the cinema. I definitely saw Return of the Jedi in the cinemas. But I suspect I saw Empire Strikes Back on video because it came out in eighty I was five, probably not anything else

He rise.

We've spoken a little bit about Yoda. There's a couple of things that I do love. I do love that transition from bumbling to like no, And it's just just from a work of if you watch it, and the the work that Frank Oz is doing with his face like by this stage. I think also what it does is I think he goes from being feeling like he is a puppet. Yes, so oh no, I can kind of understand. I can see him now and he feels real.

Yeah, that's true.

And I think he does it. There's a couple of things.

One when he warns h look, he has a little chat with Look, let's have a listened to Yoda and Luke can't it's too big.

Size matters not look at me, judge me by my size, do you m M? And where you should not? For my ally is the force and the powerful it is life, greets makes it grow, It's energy surround rush.

And bind.

Us being so not this crude matter. You must feel the force him between you, me, the three, the rock everywhere, yes, even between the land and the ship.

You want the impossible.

So this is the most I think like the force is. You know, we speak about ob one speaks about it in Star Wars. But in the Empire we start getting a lesson.

Yeah yeah, in more of a lesson.

And that feels like that's you know, that's being taken from.

Philosopher a whole lot of things.

Yeah, a lot of things as well.

It's very syncretic. But I think it's interesting because that bit you played is probably the most expensive Yoda ever get. I was surprised at how little of the training seemed

Yeah, yeah, and that.

That's kind of the big obviously, that's a big moment, and we can see from here that what's going to happen is Look's going to come to believe in it and.

I don't believe it and notices and that is why you fail.

Yes that bit, yeah, yeah, So that bit and the bit you just played really the only time that flesh is put on the bones. I think that I can recall I might be missing something, but of like what the training actually involves, yes, which is another aspect of what I mean. Like, I feel like if this film were made today, or maybe it's that it's a kids film, maybe that's what it is, I don't know about anyway, that would be much more embellished. There'd be a much more detailed kind of possibly.

But I think that the click we played, it's pretty I think, does a really good job of succinctly explaining what the force is. And I think, if you know, remembering it is a kids film, as you mentioned, if you had too much of that you can start losing some interest. So I think they do a really good job of putting it succinctly that we can understand, and there's still some mystery around it. We don't know if Luke can connect.

Yeah, you know with.

This mystery is the key point there? I reckon, yes, because I think you want to have a sense of it, but you want your imagination to fill in the rest, especially if you're a kid.

Yes, reckon.

And what do you think of the Darth the cave as where he goes into the cave and he's confronted by by Darth Vader.

Oh yeah yeah, the fake doth Yeah yeah, yeah. Okay, So because.

When that happened, when I first saw still, when I first saying I didn't know it was I didn't know it was fake?

Oh didn't you know? I just truly was like shit, right.

Okay, So I never had that moment. I assumed this was either Yoda either somehow knowing this vision would occur or planting it somehow, or it was just within Luke. But the bit that so I never had that moment. But the bit where he cuts Darth Vader's head off and then suddenly Luke skywalks his own face looks back at him, I was I thought, oh, is this the foreshadowing of who Darth Vader actually is.

Now.

The reason that's significant is I was completely blown, like taken by surprise later in the film where in spoiler of the Darth Vader reveals that he's Luke Skywalker's father, because although I knew that exists in the universe, I assumed that was a like end of Return of the Jedi moment that the whole trilogy fills up to this, and then it's like this dramatic revelation that happens right at the end of you go, oh my god, the

Either related or there's there's something in him or this darkness in him.

I guess that's that's what I was wondering if it was Maybe it was that is that you, you and darf Vada are not so dissimilar, which then marries with the warning that Ibi Wan and Yo to try to give him, saying don't don't go, you will be.

Yeah, that's and that's that's a big thing through the Star Wars films of like they know they have this star recruit, you know, and we cannot let this guy go to the dark side.

Yes, And it's and it's in him. We know it's part of him. The force is strong and white, so strong, and we could not let him go to the other side. And it's a ways training is so important.

Yes, although so Yoda says something cryptic in it in there where he says speaks, yeah, I know this is classic where he says either there will be another one or there is another one.

Yes, Yoda says there is another. And it's a great shot it as it looks leaving, Yes, and the light kind of of the X thing I think kind of comes it's it's from a it's one of the more stunning Star Wars shots over the entire saga alone, that just this film. But he says, yeah, no, there is another.

Yes, And I was like, who, what's the point of all this then? If you got another one up? Your sleep? So worried about this guy. So I don't know if this ever gets explained. I don't know if the turn of the Jedi is that where this turns up. It certainly doesn't feel explained yet, so I can only assume it's later, but that I just found a really cryptic sort of thing, and also the fact that Obi Wan clearly doesn't seem to think that or he didn't know that.

Yoda is on the side of going, well, we need, like I say, we need this guy for Philly's training because there's there's darkness, you know, loitering, so you need to finish your training. Luke's point is, yeah, but I got my best friends are in trouble. And the complexity is that, yeah, they're in trouble because Darth Vader, who Yoda probably knows is your father.

Yeah he doesn't. He doesn't explain that to him. Here obviously this is a trap.

Yes, don't fall into the trail.

You are going headfirst into the trap.

So whose side were you on when you listen to that Luke?

You were?

And Luke's still looks like yeah, because I'm like, of course he needs to go and rescue his friends. And that's what is That's what's say great about Star Wars. It often just comes down to these guys have each other's back Hahna. Early on in the film when and saved Luke even though he was he was leaving.

You know, he doesn't believe.

In all this bullshit, but he still went and saved lucas Luke needed him. Yeah, right, he's going to do and Luke knows that it just happened, so he's going to go save heart.

Are you still on Luke's side?

Ah?

Yes, So I wonder if the reason I asked that is I wondered if it was a function of age. So if you're a kid, you're on Luke side because that's who you relate to. Yeah, whereas as you get older. And I watched this, obviously I'm not a kid. I'm totally on Yoda side. I'm like, look, what the hell are you doing? You're being raised for greater things here.

I think we're seeing why I haven't won the Gold LOGI you have, but you are you are just Oh no, I'm besst for bigger things. I'm saying it I'm doing to work while I'm out there saving friends.

Now.

Well, but I think, as I watched it as an adult, I'm saying, from a movie perspective, of course he needs to go in and put himself in harm's way, in danger.

He stays with Yoda. It's boring.

It's boring film well, even though I do imagine it being like from a story point of view, the idea of him staying and it's only interesting if if harden Hahn does die.

Yeah, in a way, which they said they don't know. So that's the other thing is he can't be sure you won't die. But I'm sitting there thinking, yeah, but what if you save Hahn? But everyone dies in the end because the empire, whose motivations are still unclear by the way.

It has been one of the big one of the great revelations in this podcast. You brought us with many people afterwards that what did the Empire.

Actually, I still don't know the politics of all them.

It backs up the whole thing that is it's good versus bad.

They don't need to know. Yeah, but yeah, if ultimately you lose to the Empire, then that's that's a disastrous thing.

No.

Well, I mean does darve Vader, you know, does he have his own plans? You know, maybe he's gonna put some theme parks in, you know, like maybe maybe it's not going to be as bad.

They're going to rule the galaxy together. Well, I'll listen to your ideas, Luke.

Yes, that's what he's invited to.

Yeah. Yeah.

The other question I have is, and this is the question Lucas, is why didn't they tell him that Darfod is his father?

Well, I suspect it was the fear of them going, oh, okay, maybe I should hang out with him if his.

Dad, Oh you think he'll be attracted. Well, well, that's what they're worried about.

I think that's what they're worried about, right, because again, it's this constant fear that Darkside will will win the battle for luc Soul if you like.

Yes, okay, okay, again, that's.

A big theme throughout Star Wars even ongoing, right is the battle within of course?

Yes, I think can I just say something on that. I think that's why this really works. And I think that's what makes Star Wars a better version of this sort of kid's superhero thing than most other versions of it. It's that it does have that kind of thematic depth. It's not just about here's this guy who's really all that stuff and he's going to go and take on

Let's play one more grab from Yoda as he warns Luke about what might be ahead before we leave the Dago bar system.

I'm not afraid.

You will be. You will be.

I mean, I do love that. I mean chills.

It's so good and that I really do get chills every time I watch that. That's great writing, and it's also great voice work from Franks, great puppeteering, and it is awesome.

I still don't know what that's referring to. Has he been scared yet?

Well?

No, I think I think what looks what Yodas are saying to him is this journey you're about to embark on, and this is before him though he's not going off to save Hard at this stage, I don't think. But this is like, there will be a confrontation where you have to come up against Darth Vader at some point, and you need This is why this training is important. Yeah, you need to do this because But is.

He referring to the confrontation that happens in this film or is there something bigger coming that I suspect.

I suspect there's something bigger right coming, whether it's a confrontation with Darth Vader at the end of this film that he you know, I mean, looks about the throw that spanner into works by kind of leaving. So does Yoda know that that, you know? Does he had to adjust his visions as a result. I'm not sure, but I yeah, I love that, and I love you know, I love him getting the X Wing out of the swamp like a massive moment in Style Wars.

Oh, is it right?

Yeah?

Well, just as a just because it's a great scene. It does kind of you know, down the track we were is another it's a call back to it at some point.

So what's funny about that moment was when he tried to do it, Louke tried to bring it out but he couldn't and whatever, and Yoda's like a bit disappointed and Luke wand is off in a half. My first thought was, I, forgot's sake, just lift it up and show him.

Ah, oh we did it.

Okay, great, there it is. It was great in my mind. It was a lot less dramatic, but.

Very not sure dagabout is droid friendly as well.

I'm not sure, if you know, Yoda might have to make some adjustments around more droids over I'm the how to got around?

Yeah?

How did I to survive? When he was submerged in that?

I thought?

Shot in George Blukes's pool. That scene apparently he's serious. Yeah, yeah, just just that that. There's I think the scene where he gets thrown out of the that's amazing.

Yeah, it's weird looking.

He's got to clean it. Come on, George, let's get the Cloud City. I love Cloud City. I thought it was just a different aesthetic for Star Wars. You know, the guards, the Royal guards that were there in the Red We met Lando, Billy d Williams. He auditioned for Han solo in the original trilogy. George Lucas was was he got he got close, and I'm not sure it's because Harrison Ford was, you know, quite the up and comer. I'm not sure, but George had said he was keen

So I wonder if that's a backlash that's more now than it would have been then.

Though possibly, Yeah, absolutely, so I haven't heard it spoken about whether you know it was just that Harrison Ford got the role because you know, he was a better fair and it's hard to argue that Harrison Ford isn't the brilliant in the role.

No, no, is there a lot of commentary among Stuwells fans about or even non fans about Oh okay, so they have a black character and then he turns out to be the bad guy.

I almost did a bit about that, But I did do a bit. I didn't quite go to work good enough to going to keep doing it. But the idea that there's one black man, black character and he's the one who portrayed.

It's not comes good at the end.

Yeah, really still, Yeah, he does come good, and I think that's important because you do love people love Lando.

Yeah.

I quite liked him.

Yeah, and there were and.

I will say I felt sorry for him even with the betrayal, which I loved. By the way, that might have actually been my favorite moment in film. Yes, because I didn't see it coming at all. I don't know if I should have or not. No, I didn't. I didn't get foot at all by the Darth Vader vision bit, but that bit completely got me.

Yeah.

And but even when he says they got here before you did, I had no choice because you get this sense of an empire that will just do absolutely anything to anyone. I kind of didn't blame him. I don't know if you meant to or not. Maybe you are, but I felt like the alternative is he just gets killed and they do this anyway, Like I sort of I had a level of sympathy for his predicament.

Yeah, yeah, which, Yeah, it was a trap not just for Hahn, but as a trap Lando fell.

Into as well. Yeah.

I love that that scene, like and I absolutely remember being as shocked. I think they it's so well executed. Often wonder what he was going to be serving at a that dinner party.

Yeah, since an excellent question I did.

When I did, I was lucky enough to do the Rise of Skywalker junket in California, and and I would. I interviewed all of them and except who didn't I get to Well, Mark Hammer wasn't there, Harrison Ford wasn't there, Kerry Fisher sadly obviously wasn't there. But Anthony Daniels, Billy d Williams or a new giant Biega as Oscar Isaac, and I asked them, I'll go and ask him what was I said, this is I want to ask a question you haven't and asked for what was Darthway to

Grant. I interviewed him who's in that film?

And he just kind of like like had a bit of a laugh and then this went, ah, I don't know, it was polite.

It was polite, but it's like the Fate of the Junket.

Yeah, well you do.

Sometimes you can go these questions you're not sure if they're going to be fun or not fun, and they can really Yeah, okay, I could probably.

Take do you know it's funny you say that, though, because I think a lot. I've thought a lot watching these films about the food, because the food's never really expect I don't know what these guys eat, no, because the animals are all completely different, So yeah, are they?

Well, there's blue milk, which is a bit of a running kind of not a gag, I guess, but you often see must be seen and then post strikes Back, you certainly see it in the original Star Wars, but yes, it's but that scene and I remember having the cards collect the cars came out, and I particularly love getting the cards that are based around these things in Cloud City.

There's something about the look of Cloud City that I really it's it's very clean for modern and it feels to me like it performs a similar function as some of the outposts that you encounter in Game of Thrones. Yeah, kind of like I don't know, like carth or something like that. It is marine another one. I don't know. I can't remember all the names of the different but it sort of has that feeling about it. I don't know what it is. It's maybe it's because it's removed from the main battle scene.

I think it took a while for me to realize.

I think Cloud City helped watching it really understand the Star Wars universe. They don't do as good a job as like Game of Thrones to have explaining that there are different houses and worlds, but not worlds, but they were it's all part of the same world, but different counties or lands or whatever, and these you know, I think when you go to Cloud City, it's like, oh, Okay, so this is this is.

Not necessarily a land that's at war.

This is just, you know, like a hidden nook somewhere that's sort of on the sidelines of the conflict.

And they've all got their own little style and ecosystem even And.

I feel like it's in that moment, in fact, in that room when the doors open and you see Darth Vada, that I think his outfit, his costume, looks at its best. I don't know what it is, but there's something about it, because you know, the helmet is so impossibly shiny and everything, and the black is really black and all that. Maybe it's because it's juxtaposed against this much sort of shinier white background or whatever. Yeah, but I don't know, I

Yeah, yeah, it was.

It was.

It's a remarkable Again. Again, it comes back to aesthetic, I guess, and it's a remarkable aesthetic that moment.

I love it so much.

And we'll move to the he gets caught the Carbon Freeze. I thought, these these things, it's extraordinary.

I thought, yeah, yeah, they are great. And the tension in them as.

Well, Yeah, there's genuine tension, there's genuine emotion. You are you're not sure what is going to have. You know, Luke is not far away? Is he going to get there in time?

You?

I think probably the first time you watch it, you assume that he might get there. And famously, Harrison Ford was not. We did not want to come back this. He wanted this to be the last film he did. This Doar was film, so he asked George Lucas to kill him off, said that he didn't want to do that, and he was hoping he could change his mind between the two films.

So he came with the Carbon Freeze.

That so has an idea, Yeah, and it's it's it's happy accidents. You love I love hearing about happy accidents in movies. And the scene where Leah says I love you. Harm was supposed to say in the script, remember that because I'll be back and he's journal Destruction film and he knew. He goes, well, I don't know if I want to come back. So it's been it's been said that it was an ad lib when he said, I know, which is such a great line.

It perfectly fits the whole so characterization.

But it wasn't necessarily.

It wasn't necessarily a ad lib as such. He had a conversation with the director about about this line and they came up with that, so it was, you know, it was a discussion, you know, so less of an ad lib and then more of a rewrite.

I guess, yeah, right. I think because I for some reason assumed hum would be in Return of the Jedi, which, of course if you're watching this first time, you would never have known, because you don't know Return of jedis. But I think I just always assumed he would survive it. But even then I'd managed to suspend my disbelief enough

What I also love about this these scenes are the sound. The sound design is as all three the Star Wars film is incredible. This film's it forms such a massive part of it. We've got the Vader breathing and everything. Let's have a lesson of some of these some of the carbon freeze scene.

What's going on?

But you're being put at the carbon freeze?

What if he doesn't survive? He works a lot.

To me, the umpire will compensate you if he dies.

Please, I'm not ready to die.

Listen to me, cheweye me, hey, save your strength.

There'll be another time.

The princess, you have to take care of her.

You hear me? Huh m.

Hm, I love you.

I know.

Yeah, I'm in the school. Everything about that Chewy Chewie does inject so much emotion into that. He's your reaction, so I god Han saying take care of lay.

Yeah, it's all It's all happening here.

Is kind of pure emotion, isn't he yes, because there's no words instead of it's all they can be.

Yeah.

Yeah. Boba Fett was played by Jeremy Bollock in it, well, at least voiced apparently the Ten Minutes Work voiced it, but then the post prequels revoiced him with Tamiro Morrison, the New Zealand actor, because he plays Boba Fett in the in the earlier prequels, So right, so yeah, But apparently Jeremy Bullock has been ripped off apparently with being paid and various things. So there you go, let's just move the front of them. Yeah, Jeremy Bullock show.

I like it.

Can I say about the score. One of the things I did have this thought actually as I was watching it, is there is something magnificent about a movie that is entirely scored originally with an orchestra.

Yeah, yeah, which I don't know if that's.

Become less or more common in film. When I think of film soundtracks now, I tend to think of them using songs or getting songs written.

I still think there's a lot of composing going on. It depends what you if it's if it's there are still a lot of movies who use yeah, a lot, a lot of soundtracks, you know, yeah, particularly if they're aimed at the younger audience perhaps, you know, but or.

The tone of the film is that, Yeah, there's.

Still films like We're did in Brews recently.

Carter Burwell is one of the great composed of the recent composers of recent times. You know, films your current brothers will get you used to a certain composer. Often in this Carter Burwell, where's Anderson?

You know, the same han Zimmer always turns up and cranks it to eleven.

With Well, if you're after one of those, you know kind of yeah, whether it's an epic or hahn Zimer is often your guy. But there's still certainly, yeah, it's probably more now than there was where they will use soundtrack modern score.

Yeah, it's almost like it gives you an immediate there's an instant gratification. I think to that, whereas a score you either don't notice or when you do, it takes time to dawn upon you that, oh this is actually quite well scored. But how good is he?

Like it?

Just because he's John Williamson is like the He's the composer of my childhood. Really when you think about that, he did the Superman stuff.

And Superman Johns and Jones.

Yeah, the Olympic theme it was for whatever Olympics that was, was Los Angeles whatever. Anyway, Yeah, he just I don't know if I'm just being nostalgic saying he's the best, like he's my father.

I think I brought up last time, like I wonder. I wonder where he does sit with the great composers of history, you know. And I think you said somebody said to you once, don't co bear anyone debate. Yeah, he's just out of a conversation. He lives in his own world. But yeah, you'd wonder, like you know, in thee hundred years time or I or if John Williamson existed a hundred years ago, we would and then did these pieces of music.

Yeah, we will be.

Holding them up against I'm sure some of the great composers.

Yeah, because I think the bits to me are especially the stuff that a company is the Empire. Yeah, Like I suppose you're a bit familiar with them, so maybe that helps so they become you receive them a bit more like you receive a song because you kin'd of. I don't know, but if I had to imagine what the Empire sounds like in orchestral form, this is it.

Yeah.

It's just so perfectly done. Yeah, and I think he's just at his best in those sort of moments. And that's before you get to the main theme and like all that that sort of stuff. It's those little bits, like I think, I feel like the character of Darth Vader owes a lot to a lot of people. M and John Williamson is one of those people.

Did you like his sorry when you mentioned Dart, did you like his little meditation cave?

Yeah? I don't think you ever see that again in.

Star Wars and so and the shot.

Yeah, you know, up.

Until this point, certainly you only see Yeah, you know, I remember seeing that for the first time, thinking I have to be reminded that there was a human and he wasn't.

I think for a long time I just thought he was robot.

Oh that's interesting. So yeah, so do we ever see any more of that?

You probably shouldn't tell me, no, but I don't. I don't think we do.

What's interesting about that is the reaction of whoever it was. It's almost like for him the magic is gone in that moment.

Yeah, it looks like he's seen something you shouldn't see, whether you know he'd be in trouble for seeing it, or he just felt like seeing your mum in a nude.

Yeah, yeah, okay, I hadn't thought of it that way. I thought of it more that it diminished him somehow, diminished data somehow. It's like, ah, he just this guy with this horrible disfigurement of some sort that we don't really get to see, but which brings you back to the costume, right, because the costume is part out of the majesty of this this figure. Yeah, he's the Wizard of Oz. Yeah, you know, you take away the facade, suddenly it's a lot less threatening, except that he has

Why does he do that well because his people skills aren't great. Okay, he's management.

He's got his own management style, Okay, and part of that is not any kind of you know.

He said, right, Okay, I just wonder if you can get away with a lot more back in ninety one.

Sure, if you're in charge.

I don't understand imperial industrial relations clearly, but I just feel like you're Can you lose a lot of experience pretty quickly by doing that?

Do you?

Yes? Oh? Yes, yeah, yeah. He has to retrain a lot of people.

He would have to. I don't know who's applaying.

Let's get to the final moments with the big revelation. Let's have it a little bit of a Listen to one of the biggest revelations in movie history.

There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you, Fluke. You do not yet realign your importance. We have only begun to discover your power. Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.

I'll never join you.

If you only knew the power of a dark side or be one never told you what happened to your.

Father meets only enough.

Hats on me who killed it?

No, I am your Father's not true.

That siritual feelings.

You know it to be true.

Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me and together we can rule. The galaxy is farther in the sun.

Come with me.

It is the only way.

No, there's another way falls into the abyss Man.

You're really undercut that there, so you.

You didn't see this coming in this movie.

No.

I was even right up to the moment when he said it.

Because I assumed, Okay, the one thing you will know about this film is that this is what you might not A Yoda appears and that.

No, actually even the Oda thing. I kind of forgot about Yoda, right and then he appeared. I was like, Yoda, this is great, and there was like, oh not Yoda.

That it's like, oh Yoda.

But I obviously I knew that revelation happens, which is really unfortunate that, you know. I I'm not saying people shouldn't have spoiled it by now. I'm just saying it's on for it because it would. I'm trying to imagine what it must have been like to hear those words, and it must have been.

Seismic melted my brain.

Yeah, there's no I mean, I'm like I said, I don't think I saw it at the cinema, but I certainly remember watching it on VHS at home. And this is pre internet, so the only way you know is if somebody spoiled it for you.

Nobody had done that, and I was, yeah, this was wow.

It must have been the only thing kids were talking about at school because it's it changes everything. It just it cast everything you've seen in a new light, and it makes everything that happens henceforth different. So it's just But even up to the moment when he said I am your father, like the millisecond before he says that, I still didn't expect him to say it. I thought, oh, wow, this is an amazing setup to a revelation that's going

It becomes a big thing. Yeah, the lights, the light saber.

Yeah, yeah, so's he's not in the best position.

At this point. The Empire has successfully struck, yes.

It has, and but I will say at the end of it, what you're left with is, Okay, so the Emperor has foreseen that Luke would join Darth Vader. He's got that wrong. Yoda and Obi Wan have foreseen that he would join dath Vader, and they've got that wrong. There's not a lot of great forecasting going on. It's a bad week with tips, Tipster's nightmare.

Well, and you know, I.

Think what that says is that Luke's this is a special case.

Luke Gowok is a special case. It's complicated, and he still has agency.

There's a battle for the soul of Lusk going on, which I think is really great. But I do like that, you know, they end up together, you know, they rescue go back and they rescue Luke. I mean, there was a little clue in there in that last little scene that yeah, well, why do they go back?

As in, why does Lao go back? Well, I just assume because they need Luke and they all go back to rescue each other.

Is this something? How did they know that Luke was there?

Because she at the time it made total sense. Why did she know that? She just felt it, didn't she she felt it? So you're saying it's the force.

There is another Oh there's another force?

Whither are you're joking? I really wish we hadn't had this conversation.

You should have worked that out.

I know I was too busy thinking about Yeah, but what exactly is the politics of the empire when I was missing the whole the main game?

Yes, and she felt it we need to turn back?

Yeah?

But was she Is she the only one to have sensed well sort of thing. Arguably Hahn had that kind of thing with Luke.

Uh No, Hahn was told that Luke's Luke's out there? Is he's you know, he's in these help?

No, you're right, I've completely misread.

There are more. There are twists in terms in regards to that we return one day with after watching the Return of.

The Time Blood, I've also got to come up with three more films that I like.

Well, wait, do you end up doing the Rise of sky work nine films in great and then there's a spin offs.

We have to make a philosophical decision about how I feel about all that.

Yes, we'll discuss that at the end of the next So the.

A couple of fun facts. We've already covered a lot of it, but he's a fun one. Darth Vader tripped on the cable when he entered the hot thing and face planted, which I assume they've got on camera, and they should put that out as soon as possible because

They would have just assumed its dark lord right like father as in.

There possibly.

If your Germinal Dutch, let us know if you if you worked it out before the rest of us did. In Italy, the name was changed from Darth Vader to Lord Feena because Vader sounds like toilet.

Italian we can tell you weren't in charge of that kept that no doubt.

Carroen Fishers stood on a box when she did Seno Harrison Ford because she's five to one. Harrison Fall was six six foot. Jim Henson was originally offered the roll as Yoda.

But I assumed he had something to do with it.

He possibly did, and I assume that the creation of the puppet probably was cantin Jim Henson, but he was doing the Great Muppet Caper at the time.

He's one of my favorite. Why did not mentioned that.

Well, that's there's one put in your park?

Can you remind me of that?

Put it in?

Because I have watched that film more than I watched any other film in the world. Wow, Because every time I got sick when I was a kid start from school.

I watched it. It was the mid day show and days of our life.

All that.

So then Jim Henson suggested Frank Oz and history the rest.

Is history suggestion.

We also there's a there's a fun fact that Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher hung out with Eric Idle and the Rolling Stones in his book. We interviewed Eric Idle and he kind of spoke about this and like that there's one. There's a scene where they are hungover in Stars. I forget what's the end of these. I think it's maybe when they arrive at Cloud City or something like that, where they're a little bit hangover. You can't really tell, to be honest, if you're looking for it, you might

And yeah, that's like your trifector. Yeah, that's that's pretty Maybe if there was a cold.

Buckley and Peter Dekos had been there, Wow, that would have been it.

Mate.

Thank you so much. Huge episode. That's well have our longest but all worth it. Thank you so much for doing the homework. And we'll see you that's the next series. Yes, I'll give you some time to recover the process Empire Strikes Back, but you'll be back for Return of the Jedi.

You must feel the force around you, between you, between the world, everywhere, yes, even between.

Well that was an epic, not just discussing Empire Strikes Back, but also while it's other films. I love getting his take on the Castle. I mean that film, this keeps on coming back up, and it was again a very interesting take on that one from Wilaid and also the Malcolm X discussion. Thank you for Wally for coming in once again and doing his homework and watching Empire Strikes Back. He just watched it this morning, so it was a really fresh take from Walid about one of my favorite films.

Make how a Derek fantastic did you know that Smith Street was the cooler street in the world.

I've been saying that for twenty five years.

You have, you have been a long time resident. It has come a long way in those twenty five years. It has to be said.

It might not have really been cool maybe back then, but there you go. Home is home.

It is brilliant. I love Sith Street. Hey, you have seen Empire strikes back? Obviously, I'm assuming you have.

Oh, well, yes, I was. Everyone's got their generation that they sort of align with, and I think I'm prime Star Wars generation. I was twelve for the first one. Oh good, and I lived through that thing that well Led was mentioning you know what was like when you were a kid, and I it wasn't have you seen it? It was pretty soon? How many times?

Yeah?

And it was normal six to ten was just to be a normal kid. And that's at the cinema. Yeah, and there were some kids that were got up in the twenties and stuff like that. So of course two years later we're fourteen and we've got that freedom. We can take the train. They've built Croydon twin cinema. We don't have to go to Belgrave. Things like that, and yeah it was. It was the big one, the first proper expectation, I guess it in our lives. Yeah, and it really came through with the goods.

That's incredible.

I kind of remember hearing about, like and reading about Return of the Jedi, like coming and like. That was because I was five when this came out, and I wish I could. I kept on going back and forth whether I did see it in the cinema or not, even though I was only five, or maybe I had turned six by the time it came out. I I do wonder if I if I saw it, but I definitely saw. I have a very clear memory of seeing Return of the Jedi, and it's like reading up like

It's been such a long episode this one. We've got some great feedback.

We might say that for another week because we speket so long about those Godfather Part two and Malcolm X and the cast, so longer than we usually do. But it was while he such it like it's an honor for me to actually spend time with him because he's so thoughtful. He comes at every issue from, you know,

So it's been an that big episode.

We'll keep moving and provide some more feedback next week, but Yasney Podcast at gmail dot com. Next next week on the show, A great mate of mine, one of my best mates, Gatesy from Tripod Stephen Gates. I've known this man for over twenty years and he's an absolute joy and also devours movies, loves them. And we're gonna be discussing a more recent film, an Oscar winner Parasite from twenty nineteen.

Bong June Hose. I love this film.

I've seen it quite a few times and I can't wait to watch it again and jump into it with Gatesy next week. It won the Oscar in twenty nineteen, he won the Palm Dior at Kahn in twenty nineteen. It is an absolute masterpiece in my mind. Bong June Hose. Parasite from South Korea next week, and you ain't see nothing yet with Gatesy until then five and our.

And so we leave all eat safe and salt, and to our friends of the radio audience, we've been a pleasant good night.