Good day, Peter, Helly here, welcome to you Ain't Seen Nothing Yet, the Movie podcast, where I chat to a movie lover about a classic or beloved movie they haven't quite got around to watching until now.
And today's guests my Project co host Wali Dali.
Do you really think you have a chance against us? Mister cowboy? Open the pod bay doors, Hell.
I'll have what she's having.
Happening, right, You ain't.
Seen nothing here?
Now. This is the third time Why Lead has been on the show, so I'm not going to bang on about everything he's done. He's very well accomplished, he's very smart, and he sits next to me on a TV show called The Project. He does heaps of stuff. He's a super bloke, as smart as they come and as considerate.
Now, last time while he was on the show, he went through more of his favorite films.
He issued me a challenge, and that challenge was for him to return to talk about the movie we're talking about today.
That I needed to.
Watch a movie called Four Lions that he loves and he wanted me to watch it so we could talk about it. So not only are you getting the third installment of the original Star Wars, trilogy beginning also a conversation.
About a fantastic comedy in Four Lions.
So, of course I'm bloody stoke to be hanging out with Walid again today.
Hi, I'm regular guest williad Ali, and I'm here to complete my Star Wars training because up until last night, I had never seen Return of the Jedi.
Yes, it's the.
Movie that made trilogies a thing, nineteen eighty seven's conclusion to the greatest space saga of all time, Unless, of course, they find a way to make more movies based on this galaxy far far away.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
After the iconic climax of nineteen eighty three's The Empire Strikes Back, George Lucas puts the little known director Richard Marquand in the controls that bring this baby home, we find our heroes out on Tatooine in the fame Jabada Hut's palace, with Hans Solo frozen in carbonite, Luke growing into his big boy Jedi robes, and Princess Layer wearing a slinky for a bikini. Yep, she's a snug as
a bug on a slug. Return of the Jedi waste no time dishing up e Wok thrills and Sarlac spills with daring escapes, comic relief, twists and turns, and Luke getting some Daddy closure. Return of the Jedi remains a much loved member of the Star Wars Library. Wale Nally, have you ever passed someone passionately only to find.
Out later that you were related?
No?
No, no, no. To be honest, this is an open.
Space at the time that he was my brother.
What happens in Rabina's days in.
Definitely not a Rabbino Mitchell. I just want to clarify, See, I didn't I didn't know any of this. You're referring, of course, to the fact that I assume everyone listening to this nose. But I didn't until last night that the Skywalker and Princess lera brother and sister.
Right at the end of our discussion of Empire strikes back. I because I thought at the end of Empire, maybe because I've seen it so many times obviously, and I know what happens. I hinted, and I'm not sure if you kind of read my mind or read the situation that I kind of thought i'd given away that Luke and lay were sisters, siblings, So I wasn't sure you're going into this what you have either remembered from our chat or what you had retained or knew.
So at the.
Time, did I look like you told me something, that there was something?
There was a little bit of like what well, and I think maybe I tried to shut it down a little bit and go, well, I don't know.
Maybe I don't know you.
Either shut it down successfully or my memory completely let go home.
Yeah, I mean stuff has happened because we've done a season in between. Yeah, you so welcome back, Thank you.
You watched this last night?
I did. Yeah, I did watch it last night quite late.
I like Tish earlier for you know, you're often l writing columns and yeah, that's doing your thing gaming grand theft or grand you love a bit of grand theft, auto nothing jumping and stealing it. But yeah, I can't.
Yeah, no, I watched it last night. And where do you want me to begin? Because there's so many ways I feel like it's it's a really interesting film.
It is, so I don't want to know exactly what you thought of it right now. In fact, there are conditions of you returning. That's true, there was a term and a condition. Should we tidy this up first, Yeah, let's tard you that first. So I did mention an intro your your six favorite films. But I think last time we spoke, there was a film that you mentioned we spoke about briefly called Four Lines, that you were a big fan of, a comedy. I hadn't seen it. I was certainly aware of it. It kind of made
a bit of noise upon release. It involves for suicide Bombers, released in twenty ten, and.
I hadn't seen it.
As a lot of clarifications happening very early in today's episode. So you said to me, I will come back and do a Return of the Jedi as long as you watch Four Lines, and we can talk about that.
Because I couldn't think of three more films.
Yeah, which I mean, you know, I do wonder the more. Luke McGregor is the only one who's done the three three Godfathers, and he he came up with another three films. But I do wonder the more why you start getting into double digits?
What is it? Exactly? It was.
Just films you've seen, So what do you think I watched four Lines last night, and I loved it, and I am embarrassed I haven't I hadn't seen it because I certainly was aware of it. I had tried to watch it once and I think I was either tight or not in the mood. It wasn't because I wasn't enjoying it. But I I think, well, of the times you watch a movie, can think what am I doing watching a movie?
Now?
This is I haven't got time for this. Either I'm tired or I've got you know, literally having good time. So and I have tried to go back and watch it again, but it was tricky to find. Actually, in fact, it's I had to buy it on Apple and yeah, so it is, it's not everywhere online. I really I really enjoyed it. So twenty ten, I mean you have to put it in the perspective as well. This is this context of it, the context.
Of doing this movie.
And obviously movies don't get made, you know, from from a from conception of an idea to scripting, and so they would have who knows when they started working on who knows when the idea was born.
London bombings are the Tube bombings are two thousand and five thousand and five, so it's entirely possible. And that was actually remember that was the birth of homegrown terrorism as a popular concept because up and there, up until then, nine to eleven was the big thing.
And I was thinking about through the nine to eleven prison if.
You like, yeah, I think it's more than London bombings.
So you reckon the idea maybe Kingdom and post London bombing, Yeah.
I think that's well, that's the thing that makes it relevant, yes, like as the touchstones relevant. Yeah, because because nine to eleven is people coming from overseas. You know, there's an Egyptian guy, there's Saudi guys. They come, they learned the flyplanes, but not land them. They do all that stuff, get through the security system, turn the planes into weapons, et cetera.
But that's still someone from outside coming. It's execute a terror attack then Bali, Well it's Indonesians, there's a local terrorst cell. It's not the Western world, so we expect
there are different sort of things to play. London was like Madrid again, like cells across heroe al Qaeda's involvement directly someone London happens and it just changes everything because everyone was like hang on, these are these are homegrown lads, with maybe one exception, but these were homegrown lads, most of whom had nothing remotely to do with They went in ol Kainda training camps in Afghanistan, everything like that's not that kind of.
Thing, totally into British pop culture and everything.
And it changed the whole terrorism conversation because it made it now a domestic issue rather than an international issue. Right, the war in Iraq had started by this time, the
war in Afghanistan had started by this time. Because you remember, when nine to eleven happens, we're all like the United States especially and then US following their leader, like well, we're going to go bomb Afghanistan to take out al Kada's infrastructure, and we're going to we're going to bomb Iraq because well, let's just bomby rack and so we do all this, right, but that's all because we're seeing it as international problem. We can bomb this thing out
of existence. But once it's it becomes a social problem, then it's completely different scenario.
I laughed so many times.
There was a moment where they and this, you know, this the idea that these these are English lads in the way like, you know, they have obviously cultural ties. You know, I'm not sure they're from their families are all from the same country, but they're they're they're English.
It's all the subcontinent, like so that that Pakistani Indian migrant community dominates East London, right, and I have those East London South Asian accents.
And I laughed so much when they cut to a shot they've got the van and then they all of a sudden they're singing, dancing to the moonlight's and because what what it's really kind of powerful in doing is like we think of these terror cells existing almost in a in a movie universe where there they're masterminds and there this is almost always going to this is what they were born for, and this is what they've been
training all their lives for. And it's slick, and it's you know, it's it's like a you know, a bond is a bond gone, you know, esponage kind of all on to it. But these are just like plunkers who not even sure of the reasons why they're doing incompetent, still kind of engaged with with, you know, and probably still have a love of Britain even if they won't actually admit that themselves. I don't really know who the targets are supposed to be.
How how is that?
Do you think that's purely comedic or do you think that exists, you know with a lot of people who get you know, it's.
A really good question. I don't think it's purely comedic actually, because it does happen, right, like we observed it with the London Bombers, the the culturally British. Culturally that's that's what they are. Politically it's different, but culturally they are. Is it in four lines? Because you know the film better than me now because I haven't seen it for ages, But were they debating their favorite footballer?
Oh? They they had so many little debates. It was so really funny any the shore.
But I feel like David Beckham probably got to mention like, yeah, that sort of stuff that that's got common. You get you look in the biography these people and actually no, they.
Had someone Bin Laden was like a massive Whitney Houston fan, like yeah, like Kim Jong Kim Jong Earl like and and and yeah even before Kim Jong on was a massive like massively he thought Bond was the Bond films were like part basically documentary, Like he fell in love with this idea of espionage being so that he got
into but he started making propaganda films. He was a filmmaker, Kim Jong's sorry, and and he he would honestly believe that, and he liked he liked Michael Bay style films, you know.
And there's an amazing story that's been listening to about him and apping this really famous South Korean actress and the South Korean director who had been married and then separated, and he set up a meeting like in might in Hong Kong or in South Korea, actually in South Korea, and then basically the actress, I think it's just the actress at that stage arrived this meeting on an empty beach and no one who was there, and then she just heard these humm of these boats coming from the
ocean and there was these two speedboats.
They bundled into the speedboats. They took it back over there for like six years.
Which sounds like a Bond film. Yeah.
Yeah, But he was as obsessive you know, American pop culture and pop culture in general.
But so you got to forget that.
They have all these influences that yeah, contradicts totally.
Yeah, that's like, they are human beings. I know that they're doing something in human and the way we discussed them in the media and like via news and in politics is to remove any sense that they're human beings from the conversation. And I can understand why that happens, but it's not correct. They are they are still human beings, and so they are there's all these sort of weird this weird we would regard it as weird. Maybe it's
actually not that weird. But they if they grow up in the UK, then you can expect that they're going to be inflected by British culture, especially because what's really common among people who become radicalized is not like it's actually rare that they went to an Islamic school, were religious their whole lives, and then sort of the zenith of their religious development was to strap on a suicide
bomber's vest. That's really rare. The story is much more common and was common was there amongst the London bombers, is that they had no completely irreligiou they're out getting drunk or whatever, like all these things that are completely inimicable inimical to Islamic life, and then they have a sort of sudden conversion to religious zelotry, and so they get attracted to the most extreme form of it because
that's a common thing. That's this pendulum effect that you get when you go from one thing to its opposite, right, So actually that's a really common thing. So of course they would have been steeped in popular culture, and they probably had a favorite beer if you ask them, you know what I mean. But we don't ask them, of course, and in the case of suicide wrong as you can't. But those sort of things do emerge from their biographies, like when you start reading the biographies after the media
has lost interest. That's the sort of stuff that sort of turns up. So to come back to your question about the film, I don't I mean, I don't know what their intentions were, but it's clearly comedic. But I don't think it's just comedic. I think they're making an observation that is that is true or at least rooted.
In because imagine, also, if you are going to make this film at the time period when it was made, you want to get some things right. You know you can't and this is funny enough. There's so like it is laugh out loud funny.
Yeah, in a very English way, right, a very English comedy film.
Yes. Like, there's a scene where and I encourage you to watch it.
Obviously you can maybe skip ahead a little bit if if you don't, I want to check it out before you talk about too much.
Where there's like a council meeting to discuss you.
Know, probably Islamophobia, I guess, and a guy a guy jumps up, does like a two pack kind of rap, and then and then reveals he's got a bomb strapped to him, and then he says the things they say before he you know, he presses the button and like streamers and glitter basically pop out, and everyone's because everyone's yeah, I kind of like Winston.
Then and he goes, oh, what you think.
There's a Muslim, which is hilarious because he's got to what looks like a bomb strap to him and he just said he's about to blow everybody up. But now, because I'm Muslim, you thought I was gonna do it.
And that's one of the things about a feel like that is it cuts in multiple directions, right, It's you know, that's partly I think having a dig at people who will claim everything this homophobia. Yes, ye, yes, at the same time as the film is kind of in a way lampooing the seriousness that the you know, the criminal mastermind element of the way we sort of manufacture these figures, these characters as you know, the terrorst cell, when actually often it's not like that at all. So I think
that's what makes it an interesting film. I'm not an enormous fan of hugely didactic films that kind of like, all right, here's the position and we're gonna hammy with it over and over and you know, until you submit to the politics or the the you know, the view that we're trying to. I much prefer these sorts of films where they're they actually got something to say to everybody and we're all laughing, and in it we can all think a little bit about ourselves.
And you can go this. Could you could watch this film and have a laugh and keep it at that.
Yes, definitely, because it's genuinely like it stands up just as a.
College it is so funny.
But you can also also, and I'll challenge you to baby watch you know that the third act and not be feeling, you know, feeling something.
It's a bit tragic at the end, isn't it.
Yeah?
Yeah, and Riz Armed he's the ringleader and he is just absolutely they're all. It's a uniformly brilliant cast. It was written I did know by Jesse Armstrong, who is man behind Succession, and Christopher Morris who did something like The Day to Day and these great you know, sat High, so it's got and also behind Veep, and some of those writing staff worked on Veep.
But also the thick of it, so it's got that you.
Can sense that actually, well I didn't know that to you set up, but as soon as you say, you go, yeah, thats.
And I didn't know. I looked it up.
I knew Christopher Maris had been involved, and also men called Sambaye. I mean, it's funny because we both loved the film. But I'll ask you, is it an issue that there wasn't I don't think any of those men are Muslim?
Does that matter?
It doesn't matter to me. I mean, I mean this gets into a massacre.
And I have no idea that if they if they consulted, if they did all those things.
And I suspect that just because again, I've watched it for a long time, but I have no memory of watching it. And I know a lot of Muslims that watched it because it was very popular amongst Muslims for reasons I'll explain this sect. It's just actually interesting how it was popular. But I don't know anyone amongst the Muslim community who watched it and was like, oh, for God's sake, I've got that wrong. And yeah, there's none of that in there, at least that I remember, And
like I said, don't remember having conversations like that. So then you get into this thing, which I think the Devil's a lot of the you know, the discussion about representation and all this sort of stuff that I think, you know, the way I end up looking at these things is I'm not actually that interested in representation in some kind of mathematical or accounting sense of as if there's a Muslim character, for example, I don't need that person,
the actor, to be a Muslim who's playing that character. All I care about is is it a good portrayal? Right, So you know, Morgod Freeman played a Muslim in Robin Hood right with the Kevin Costa one, And I remember that distinctly because I was probably grade five at the time and I just never seen a Muslim character that wasn't a terrorist before in a film, and I was like, oh wow, And it was interesting because he was the
Wislim character who came from a more advanced civilization. They had, you know, they'd mastered optics and all these He was giving him a telescope and Robin Hood's like, what's this and all this sort of stuff. So that's why that stuck with me. I had no problem with Margod Freeman playing that character, and the portrayal was a good portrayal. I did have a problem and I can't even remember
if it's Robin Hood someone else. I think it might be Robin Hood, But like where they cut to a shot of like a group of Muslims praying together, and it's like, that's not how that works. You don't stand there, what are they doing? Who thought this? Was like, you know, it's always like someone who had never ever seen a congregational prayer had just decided to imagine what one might look like and chuck it on the screen. That annoys me, not in a way that's going to make me, you know,
join social media and start a hashtag about it. But like that annoys me. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah, I don't need to go through a list of writers or actors or directors and say where's your where's your Muslim there? That's that's kind of beside the point.
I mean, and a smart collection of man who wrote this. I can only imagine some of the black Well Walls and this addition of writing. He's involved in some of those shows as well. And the fact is, I'd be shocked if the cast didn't have little inputs of it.
They totally along the way I.
Mean is so I said, it's uniformly great. There's a fantastic scene before they're about to go on there on their mission, and there is one of the characters. I think it's Hassan's. You know, he's the thickest I think he says, he's almost thickest fudge, and he he doesn't really know why he's doing this. He's basically just going along with it and maybe you know everything. Then he raises doubts, and he raised these doubts before they go on on their final mission, and Omar says, well, what
does your what does your heart say? And he says, because he says, is this wrong? I was just right? I was this wrong? I don't know, I feel like I might be wrong. Is listen to your heart? What does your heart say? He goes, well, my heart says it's wrong. And he goes, well, listen to your brain. What does your brain say? He goes, well, my brain says that we're here and and we're all like ready, and it would be a bit of a dog act to kind of pull out now these He goes, well,
switch switch what they've done. They've put your heart where your brain is, so switch those two things. And then the other Bolk's kind of saying Barry's kind to say, well, listen to your brain.
No, no, no, no, just whatever is going to give you the answer that I've got.
Yeah, And then and then the final act that well, you know, is them going on this mission, which gets you know, obviously goes pair shaped in various ways, and and he's got a tragic again when it is a tragic again and he but they're running around and this is the English element to it. They're running around because
it's the London Fun Run. They're running around and these ridiculous outfits like the one if you've seen The Office where where the red Nose day and David Brent rocks up and he's wearing the you know, the the EMU.
Or the Ostrichia.
He looks like he's writing an ostrich One of them is on that they're all in the ridiculous Yeah, which is kind of ones is that ninja turtle and Barries in a ninja turtle?
It is.
But there is a turning point where where kind of realizes that, you know, and it might be too late, that the things that this may not be the right thing. Yeah, the reality, Yeah, which had to I did find myself during it going how is this going? I was really fascinated by going how do you draw this to a close? Do they go through with the mission? Do they come to their senses beforehand? It is fascinating.
It is a really interesting question. And you know, from my memory of it, they ended it perfectly, like they really threaded the needle and in a way that made it more than just a comedy like that that we don't want to give out away what's tragic about the end, but it really is. And you look at this and you go, what a waste?
Yeah, And that's it was one of the purest messages about this whole thing, isn't it?
Yeah and waste And that's actually one of the saddest things about the real world phenomenon is I mean, there's the obvious tragedy, which is the tragedy that we all talk about, but then there's the you know, the feeling for the families of the people who you know, they're dealing with, how did I have a kid who got messed up, like mixed up in this sort of thing,
and like where did I go wrong? And all this sort of thing, But also like this didn't need this didn't need to happen, and now we've just got to pick up the pieces of all this for what for what? There's so yeah, it's I think it's just it's quite richly subtle in that way, and the things that picks up at the same time as it just never seems to compromise.
On the comedy of it.
It's brilliantly done. I just had a thought about the representation stuff as you were talking then, And the other aspect of it is there's a very particular community that this is based in, which is that sort of South Asian the second generation of our South Asian Muslim migrant
community in London. And that's not even a thing that let's say, you know, I was one of the writers or whatever, I wouldn't be really any more representative, right, because that's a particular like community with a particular experience and particular a particular way of speaking. And I might be more familiar with that way of speaking than say you are, because I'm exposed more to it or whatever, but I'm not. I'm not of it, right. The guys
playing the roles on screen, they're probably of it. Yeah, And you can tell because the way they ifn just the way they deliver their lines. It's like, yeah, that's come from someone who knows what they're doing, like what they're saying, how these conversations work, et cetera. Everything about it, you know, even just the conversation about rubber dingy rapids. It's just it feels perfect. Yeah, Yeah, they really got it right.
It didn't bother me at all, but I did kind of wonder I thought more of the writers sometimes. I think about the discussions in the writer's room.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And because we meet Omar and Barry and Baj and Hassan.
Barry has to be there, by the way, is very important.
Yeah, it tells me that about because Barry, to my mind, was just like he's not connected culturally.
No, he's the convert.
Yeah, he's a convert. Yeah yeah, yeah, tell us about that.
It's just an important story. It's just an important part of it because that too is paybe the zeal of the convert that I was talking about. You kind of have this mix within a lot of these sort of radical groups that are self starting radical groups, that's the thing they're not, you know, from established terrorist organizations whatever.
This mix of what you could call really loosely internal and external converts, you know that people who came from being in a Muslim family or whatever but not really practicing or anything like that, and then the people who are just new to it and like they're not Muslims
at all and they become Muslims. And there were just so many stories like that, right, and so the fact that they chose to put a convert there is so like it had to happen, like it really and also that is an important part of the mix of those communities. Like people. It might surprise people to hear this, but lots and lots of people convert to Islam in places like the UK and places like Australia. I know lots of. I'm married to one, I know, I know lots of.
They are actually part of the community, and they find themselves in these environments where everyone, okay, suddenly everyone they knows Pakistani or whatever. It's the kind of culturally distant at the same time as they're like cultural, like they're culturally the majority, but they're they're religious minority now and
they've kind of converted to a minority status. And it's a very particular experience, right, but it's it's a really important part of I think just about every Muslim community in the West, even in the US, and the US is slightly different because you've also got African Americanism versus migrants, and there's a whole different relationship there that I don't think there's any parallel of in Australia the UK. But but it's either either way. The convert presence is a really important presence.
And he has almost he's the most fervent.
Which is kind of the point.
Yeah, the thing that I wondered about in the writer's room was we meet these guys as they're making a video. You know, so they're they're they're already all in and it's very some of the stuff that's going on, it's very funny, but they're kind of committed to kind of doing something. But at this stage, and I so we don't see them become radicalized. I mean, they really work out what the point? At what point did they become radicalized?
We see Omar at home with his wife and his kid, like reading bedtime stories to which is really great, Like, these are people living amongst us who are doing that's what humans human beings. Yeah, and they're reading which book is and talking about the Lion King and you know, and they're putting a lot of themes into the Lion King. And I just wonder if they discussed the idea of kind of going, okay, what we never really and like I just watched it last night, so I may watch
it again and go, oh, there it is. But I never saw the point where we realize why Omar had gone down this this part.
Yeah, and that's that's a fair point because I, yeah, my memory of it's a saying that that's not really explained. I think that might be for a couple of reasons. One is it would be hard to do that without it becoming a very different I agree, becomes a drama at that point. Yes, Whereas sometimes the best place to start in the story is in the middle of it.
And if what you really want to do is talk about the dynamics, sort of the social dynamics and the sort of like shambalic nature of a lot of these sort of groupings, then you might be best to start with that formed and then you tease out some of the background or the psychology of these people through the story that unfolds, rather than through the history. But you're right, I can see why someone would say, well, I wanted
to I want to know that. Yeah, but in some ways it's kind of good you don't know, because it's not entirely clear that they do exactly.
And like I said, it didn't bother me at all. In fact, I was impressed they didn't lean on the sentimentality of the fact that he was I did have a kid at home, like there's not that scene and I may have I must say I was midtally very tired when I watched this, which actually is a credit to the movie, because I no doub would have finished it. Probably this morning but I really wanted to keep at it,
and I still enjoyed it so very much. But I may have missed a couple of bits, but my mind I cannot certainly, because I watched the last kind of sequence again this morning. I want that there's a there's a version of this where he calls home and he's kid answers, you know. And I'm really glad that they didn't do that. Yeah, and we'll have been fine if they did. But I think it's impressive that.
Yeah, I agree, there was a certain I don't know what the word is. It's not really purity, but there's a there's a certain discipline, I think.
Yeah, to the way there.
I think that's a good way of putting it, because they weren't making an emotional drama.
No, they and it's it's it's.
You know, three cheers for making a point, you know, I think some really good points with good themes by sticking with comedy and.
Not over making them. That's that's the thing. And it was really interesting to me that it became such a popular film amongst Muslims at that time, because that's how I heard about it. It was just other Muslims saying, oh, you got to see this film. It's great or whatever. I know, it's one of Naseema's homes.
It's so funny because I spoke on the ze so you you had said make sure you watch four You remind me you make sure you watch four King four lines.
I say, yeah, I'm.
Watching it on Thursday night, and I swept them in the zeine. He rang on Thursday he's going to be a guest at the Grapes of Mirth festival in Adelaide. If you're there, he's going to be doing sideways. And he said, I said you again, Well, I guess you need to know your three favorite films. Yes, you need to know now. I said, no, no, no, no, just you tell me on the day. And he said, I'll just let you know one because you may not have seen
its four lines. I said, that is bizarre, as because I'm literally watching that tonight.
Well, I think that's the thing. It would there'd probably be a lot of Muslims who if you said give us you three that that would appear. Yeah, you know, if they were attuned to pop culture at that particular time, because it and they would probably all say the same thing. Oh, you might not have seen it, because I don't think it like it didn't become a pop culture smash or anything.
No, it's a bit of a sort of cult film, but.
Which is odd because the way it's made is very much a mainstream comedy. It's not like it's not like an art house or something like that that says, please let me be a cult film. It's not like that. But anyway, it was interesting that.
I mean, it's dark.
You explained it to somebody, it's a comedy about suicide bombers. Yeah, yeah, you know, you can understand why people.
Go, yeah, I'm not ready for that. All I need to be in the right frame of mind to watch out totally.
Yeah, I can understand that. But I think the reason was some seem to like it so much was like it was a really really hard period for people to live through, right, because it starts at nine to eleven and it just does not stop till probably it goes up and down a bit, but it probably lasts till
like twenty seventeen. Maybe that's a long time, right. And it's heavy, and it feels like you become claustrophobic, Like it's almost like you walk outside and the air is just thick and it wants to surround you and everything's
so serious and whatever. And then someone takes this thing that is the cause of that and turns it not into light relief that's not the right description, but lampoons it and at the same time reveals things that you've known but can never find the way to say, because you can't say any of the things the film is saying without i don't know, sounding off, sounding like you're I don't know, diminishing the gravity of terrorism or something
like that. It just seemed to find It was like the exact balm that I think a lot of Muslims needed at that time, that spoke to their condition, their experience, the way life was for them, but in a way that it wasn't overly. It was light, it didn't have the way, it didn't have the heaviness about it. It's a master stroke, I think, to be able to do that, and the fact that Muslims responded that way, I think tells you how well it was executed, Like just just
how authentically done. That's probably not the right word, but you know what I mean. Yeah, there's something about it that it's it's telling a particular truth there.
It'd be nice to see them now that you know the Western world, you know. I mean it's a British film, but you know, let's say, non Muslims, if you like Field, that enough time has passed, they're okay, they're comfortable enough to watch it. I hope it does find continues to find the audience and it has a second third life because it's it's it's just a really only filming.
If you and if you love Veep and if.
You love Succession and you know the day to day, you'll love this.
Do you think there would be people who'd be offended by it?
I don't think so.
Hard to be offended by it.
This is a good film to demonstrate the difference between the message in the punchline, yeah right, you know, and Micky Gervais talks about a whole bunch and something he could go into I think even murky areas. But this is not laughing at this whole thing. No, it's actually making a point. And I think if you watched the whole film and get to the end, you it's unmistakable.
Yeah the point they're making.
Yeah, yeah, that's I'm really glad you liked it.
It's a film that I I'll revisit many times.
It's probably the only film I've seen that you haven't.
You got one, you got one in But there is another film we are here to talk about. If you have done your homework once again. You started this journey a few seasons ago with Episode one and New Hope into Empire Strikes Back, and now it is.
The third of the trilogy Return.
Of the Jedi nine to eighty seven, director by Richard Markuin, written by Lawrence Lawrence Kasden, Star Wars Legend, screenwriting Legend and story by and also co written by George.
Lucas Wale Ale. Did you enjoy Return of the Jedi?
I did?
Yes.
Three from three I think I actually in the end, I think I really did well.
This is you can you can now answer the question you can have a favorite Star Wars movie.
Now, Ah, that's true. Oh God, I wasn't ready for that. That's no naive not to be ready for that.
Actually, we can come back. We can come back today. You may or may not have an answer, but.
I was tempted to say Empire Strikes Back. I think Strikes Back is a better film than the others in the way that I just got the twist in it, like the blind Side and that sort of stuff. I kind of got to the end of that one and I said, oh, that's recognizably the way a good film works. Yes, you know what I mean. And halfway through Jedi, I was like, what is this? Like what have I done? And there's still bits about it where I'm like, I don't know, like did we need the Ewoks?
Well that is contentious, Like.
I know, I know they've loved and so from that perspective, yeah, and I'm sure it was great for like the.
Crew hated the Ewoks, did they They One of the producers, Ralph mcquarie, he walked off because he hated the Ewoks so much. You just said, na and originally supposed to be Wookies, which actually I do think would help because some people just don't like the Ewoks.
I like, I just don't see the point of the whole thing.
Well, yes, yes, see for me, the return of the Jedi brilliant first act. You could even argue it was a completely necessary and I would like to discuss.
The whole job of the Hut one.
Yes, yes, yes, but entertaining it's a lot of the way to introduce characters we will. I would like to get your idea of what Luke's plan or what the plan was to actually save Han Solo.
I can earn the assume it's what happened.
Well, I got a feeling layer and look, we're on different and different things going on.
A masterful third.
Act, yes, the third act is the thing.
Yes, and you have these three things going on which we can get to and a bit of a saggy middle act.
I think.
So as I was watching the first act, I was going, well, this is all fun, but it looks to me like I mean Jabba the Hunt. Interestingly, everyone knows that Jaba the Hunt is, and I obviously did coming into Star Wars, but I didn't realize he was actually such a minimal character, like he doesn't appear that much throughout the trilogy. And then this is the moment.
And originally when when I first saw Return of the Jedi at Greens for a twin twice in the same day, I've mentioned this and then and I was the asshole who said when Luke enters Jabba's palace and the like behind me goes starth Vader, and I just laughed, it's Luke, what an asshole. So but when I watched the first time, we had never seen Jabba before. Because Jabba was added in, I didn't realize that he was referenced.
We had never seen him. Okay, so this is exciting.
This is one of my regrets with the fact that I've seen the new digitally altimately, because there's a lot of times I'm watching this he was going, is that a new bit? Is that? And I was like, Actually, because I'm a bit of a purist, I like, I want to see the original. I mean, i'd see it on real to real if I could. Yeah. But anyway, so that just backs up the point of making know
that he pretty peripheral character really. And then so as this is going on, I'm like, well, this is all kind of fun and the okay, there's a fighting scene and all this sort of stuff, and they've got to get Hansolid out. I guess, all right, okay, but it kind of looks like an excuse for Jim Henson's workshop just to make a bunch of stuff.
Or funnily enough, George Lucas did want to do it basically another CANTEENA scene like mos iclely Canteena because when they did that. He thought they didn't quite have as much money as he like, So this is his opportunity to go back and go let's let's be.
Yeah, but it's not as good as the canteen To scene. I don't think there's something about the can maybe because that's your first venture into that world, so it strikes you in a different sort of way.
Yes, yes, I think, and it's.
I mean that funnily enough, the Canteena seems more dangerous in a weird way. I think maybe because we know our characters. We know Luke's Jedi. Now we know they're capable. We probably know they're going to get out alive. Where when we first All Star Wars was yeah this farm boy.
Yeah, that's true.
He walked into it. You know. It's like it's like when you're sixteen year older you go to a pub. I know you know that.
Yeah, I know, you know we've all been there, so I yeah, I mean, I really I love the I mean there's obviously the stuff that happens before we get to the Jabba's Palace, but.
I always kind of thinks as the opening.
Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, yeah, and I get there's an important plot device there that you have. Hansla has to get free somehow. Yeah, I get that that's happening, and I guess you get a demonstration of Luke Skywalker's ability this sort of he's becoming.
Yes, so you certainly picked up the vibe that I did very early, very You know that Luke had gone from farm boy in yeah, and you hope into apprentice in their pare strikes back to now master Jedi.
Yeah, yeah, yes, although he has one thing to do before. Yes, yeah, but it did at the same time as all that's happening. I can see the criticisms, Like, I can see why there would be people whould say, no, this isn't the film because because of that, a lot of it feels gratuitous. Right, Do you need all this jabb of the heart stuff? Do you really need it? The whole Ewoch thing, that whole storyline. Actually, it's completely the real battle. Is the
Empire going to be destroyed? And if the Empire is defeated, then it's all over the Wookie thing. It's relevant for those particular characters, but that's kind of it, right, Do you need any of that at all? Is this just an excuse to create a whole lot of characters that you can put on a whole lot of T shirts or something.
Or that there's a big part of it.
Yeah.
So I can see that criticism. Even they rebuilt the death start, it's like, okay, right, okay, so you basically just it's the same thing. Let's just blow up the death start again.
Okay.
So I can see those criticisms, and I would say halfway through the film, that's how I was feeling, was like, it's just me or is this just weirdly weak? But I think the way it ends, that third act, which I think you described as master forward, I think it's so good and so for such deep reasons. Actually, I've got to I've been thinking about this, and I think
it's a film. I think it's a deeply moral film, and I think it's a now from our current vantage point in twenty twenty two, I think it's a deeply unfashionably moral film, which I really like.
Is part of that.
It's one of the fascinating things about it is that for Luke to be the hero, usually it's about killing the bad guy. Yes, and this is them saying this is him resisting that and choosing a higher power.
That's exactly it. So he what's unfashionable about it is we are in an age, I think, where virtue in political struggle is demonstrated by how angry you can get, by how much you can lash out, by how many people you can destroy that are the enemy. That's actually how we go about doing politics and selling ourselves to the world as serious people with a moral core. Right, Luke is the exact opposite of His journey is the
exact opposite that in several really important ways. One, he's not an instant hero who's just born with I don't know, superpowers or freakish ability or whatever, who's to be celebrated for being so strong and courageous and whatever. No, he's a person who's on a journey, who starts a million miles away from that and has to undergo training and initiation. He has to become that. In other words, he has to undergo a really rigorous, lengthy process of moral formation.
He has to be worthy internally, almost spiritually. He has to be worthy of being the Jedi right.
And this has done over three films, as opposed to it being a montage in a New Hope where he goes from farm boy to Jedi exactly.
And it's the fact that it's over three films that I think gives that its power, right, And that's why Yoda is because watching it over the course of it, I was kind of surprised Yoda wasn't in it more because he's such a huge, famous character. I just assumed going into the trilogy, Oh, well, this is going to be wall to wall Yoda, and it's actually not. But he's such a crucial character because he's the moral center of the universe, right, he's the moral center of Luke's universe.
And he's not a guide that teaches Luke how to fight. He's a guy that teaches Luke how to be, and that's a very different thing. Luke Skywalker can only be Luke Skywalker because he learns to be something, and that's something. Is not one who will do whatever it takes to destroy the empire, right, that's not someone who will lash out in a kind of self justifying blaze of anger or rage. And the great like the zenith of all this is that scene of course with the Emperor at
the end. The Everra is great. By the way, you don't see him until this film, that which mirrors exactly the dynamic between Batman and the Joker actually, and just one of the reasons I love Batman so much, where the Joker is saying to Batman, come on, kill me. I want you to do be because the minute you do it, you become the same as me, and then you've lost right. And that's the moral drama of Batman.
That's why Batman is to me the greatest superhero. It's not just because of Batman, it's because he's got the greatest villains. And the Joker is the greatest villain because he's so deeply psychologically and morally inflected. Right, He's asking all the hardest questions of Batman's moral commitments. You have one rule. I'm going to make you break that rule, and if that means I die great, right, everything I do is going to be engineered to what's getting you
to break your rule? You are going to kill me, right, And the Emperor's doing the same thing. The Lightsaber's next to him, He's showing next to the Emperor, he's showing Luke all of the ways that the Rebel alliance is in trouble, how this was all a trap, It's all falling apart. It's come on, Luke, what are you going to do here? Pick up the lightsaber and strike me, because the Emperor knows the minute you do that, you're
not that you've succumbed to the dark side. And this is really interesting because the dark side here, I think, connotes a series of a series of moral vices like anger, retribution, revenge, all these sorts of things. We're in an age where we're being trained, i think, by public discourse to think of those things as virtues. Now Luke isn't that, and he nearly does to come right. He picks up the lightsaber, he goes to stroke the emprehends up in the light taper,
fight with with daft, etcetera. So this is a really unfashionable view of morality. Like a it's something that you work on, that is part of your day to day process of inculcating something internal right. It's not just about what your views are on things, it's about who you are. It's a long process, it requires initiation, It requires masters to help you along. You know who have greater wisdom than you because they're older than you, et cetera. Very unfashionable idea, very un fashioned.
It's very interesting as though well, that Yoda and obi Wan give different advice in a way. Subtly, Yoda says, you must confront Vada. Let's have a listen to the Yoda advising Luke, no more drinking?
Do you require already? Know you that what you need?
Then?
I am a Jedi?
Not yet.
One thing remains.
Vader. You must confront Vader.
Then on, then, hey, Jedi, will you be and confronting you will? Master Yoda is Darth Vader?
My father.
Arrest I need yeah, yes, rest.
Yoda.
I must know.
Your father is told you did he yes? Unexpected?
This is m h and unfortunately.
Unfortunate that I know the truth.
No, MH.
Unfortunate that you rushed to face him that you're complete?
Was your training that not ready for the burger for you?
I'm sorry?
We met a Jedi.
Stream flows from the forest.
So he's saying you must confront Vader, which is a very different thing than what obi Wan is about to say.
Obi Wan says you must destroy Vader.
Now, let's have to listen to obi Wan and what he has to say to look and there's I guess there's two elements here. He talks about Anakin and then he talks about like, we're going to listen to both, but this is funny that you've kind of had noticed and you're not alone. And I agree that the second, the middle act does lag a little bit. This sequence wasn't originally going to be in there, so there's gonna be no Yoda.
Oh wow.
And it was Richard Marquin who came in the director and said, oh no, you need you need to have Yoda in there, if only two, to hammer home or at least to solidify the idea that Vader is Luke's father, and that there must be a confrontation. And they kind of like, I shared the load between Obi Wan and.
Yoda. But then James and Luke. George still has some doubts. And then James L.
Jones said, I always thought that Darth Vader is a trick, that he's not really his father. So who is the best person to actually kind of confirm that this is true, the Yoda or Obi Wan. So this is obi one talking to Luke about Anakin Skywalker.
Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father.
Your father.
Was seduced by the dark side of the force. He ceased to be Anagin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you it was true from a certain.
Point of view, a certain point of view, Luke, You're.
Going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend when I first knew him.
Your father was.
Already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force.
Was with him.
I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda.
I was wrong. There is still good in him.
He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil.
I can't do it.
Then you cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
I can't kill my own father.
Then the Emperor has already one. You were only.
Hope, No pressure, obi Wan.
It's such an important scene. Yeah, yeah, such an important scene. And what's important about it is that Obi Wan's wrong. Yeah, he is completely.
Wrong, Luke. Luke is the true Jedi here?
Yes, yeah, but I think thanks to Yoda. But also so thanks to something you ate within him.
Right.
Yeah, So this is the other aspect of it that I think is deeply moral and deeply unfashionable at the moment, and that is that the thing that marks look out from just about everyone else except perhaps Shoda, is he never loses faith in the possibility of redemption that some even someone as terrible as death later And you could say, yes, that's because it's his dad, and so okay, yeah, maybe maybe I don't know that that's necessarily true, but maybe,
but he still doesn't lose faith. He doesn't do that thing, which is the thing that we love to do, which is just right, someone off just because that's it. They exist now only to be killed or only to be vanquished.
And maybe one's one hundred percent wrong, because, as we discover in the final confrontation with the Emperor and Darth Vader, the Emperor wants him to kill dath Vader because to do that means he's now overcome by the dark side, and he just steps into Vader's shoes and becomes probably a better version of Vader for the Emperor and for
the Empire. Right, So that's a really I don't know, I'm kind of a bit stunned that I haven't heard this being I'm sure it gets discussed, but like, I know bits I went in knowing bits of Star Wars, like Luke homb your father. Yeah, I know that whatever. I had no idea. You get to see Darth Vader without his home, and he's just like, what did that? Why does no one talk about that?
I guess I get spoken about.
That's not in the same way. Otherwise i'd have heard it. You just don't hear it the same way. I didn't realize that. In the end, Darth Vader admits his error and forsakes the dark side. That's just not part of the sort of what's in the ether, at least the ether that I'm none of that.
In your mind, Darth Vada, that was just a bad guy.
Right, and I'm expecting, oh well, eventually Luke goes and kills him and they win or something. That's kind of
how it ends. This is a much more impressive ending because it has these sort of quite rich themes of redemption, of forgiveness, of repentance, like of human development, of spiritual development, of the way in which the dark and the light sort of dwells within the same person and how one might have even within Luke, right, because he does succumb to those things that make the Emperor think he's going to go fall to the dark side, right.
He does.
When Vader starts talking about Layer, Yeah, that's which is it's it's it's beautiful that comes up at that point, you know, like because you do need something, something that you know, to turn the screws on Luke. Before we get to that, let's just have a listen to it. We'll finish off Ibi Wan talking and he also they also discussed Luke's sister.
Other he spoke on as your twin sister.
But I have no sister.
To protect you both from the Emperor. You were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew as I did, if Anagan were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.
Laya lay as my sister.
You know inside serves you well, bury your feelings deep down loop they do your credit that they couldn't be made to serve the Emperor.
So that that's foreshadow that sets up that moment up where Vader mentions Layer and works it out he has these feelings that have betrayed him.
Yeah.
Yeah, And I mean even that piece of advice from Obi one of it, who says, you know, bury your feelings deep with deep inside. Whoever he says that anymore, we're like, if you've got a feeling, tell somebody, tell everyone. It's yeah, but it sort of speaks, I guess, to the the idea of what's at stake, Like Luke's being asked there. There's the whole question of like the strategic reasons that you wouldn't want Layer to be known as.
But Luke's being asked there to resort to know, resources of character to do something really difficult, right, to overcome just responding to feeling that sort of stimulus response thing is in the end, the great battle that he has right at the end of the film.
I will say, I will say the recent series Kenobi Like, one of the great joys of that is seeing you know, Obi Wan and Vader you know, almost in their prime. Yeah, it was certainly Vader in his prime, I think. And
in defense of Obi Wan, this force ghost him. He does try like he has tried and tried again to see the good Invader or to see Anakin, so he has reasons for his Yes, Now you may say that a Jedi should still always keep you know, maybe they're not They're not perfect and Jedies do get corrupted and Jedi's fall and not perfect.
No, No, he has his moments.
So I think, to use one of my mum's phrases, Obi WANs at the end of his tabor, he's had about the pussy's bow.
Yeah.
Yeah, and he's made a judgment. Yeah, but it's telling that he's judgment's wrong, and it's it's telling, which doesn't mean he's fuck stupid or anything, but in the end he's wrong. And maybe that's because it looks at a higher level than that.
When you found out that that so layer was the related reaction of thoughts feelings.
I thought was this is a real family drama. That was my first thought, and I was a bit subs on it because I actually didn't know what was coming.
Because of the passion and by strikes back.
Well, but also because it's like, oh, you've done the family trick well.
It is often a thing that kind of some Star Wars fans. While we went into the next installation, the next not not the prequels, but the new the newer films, it was like, ah, is everyone.
Going to be related again?
Yeah?
Yeah, right, So yeah, it's tricky.
It just felt to me like a trick that had already been used, Yeah, because I didn't realize that it was actually quite like that. It was setting up something really quite important. All of it is, but at that moment, and remember that's in the context of a film that I'm at that point a bit worried about. I'm just kind of like, this feels like they went one too long or something and they couldn't really figure anything new out. So they chuck some new characters in, but we don't
need and all that. So that's what's going through my mind at that moment. So it probably wasn't in the most receptive state for that, and I thought maybe it would be a neat little trope that they could use to play off with Hans Solo or whatever, which they do a bit.
But yeah, well we go back to end Or, and end It is the only new planet in Return of the Jedi.
Usually we have a couple of new planets in each movie, but it's basically tato Wine, Dagoba, and end Or.
There's a moment in end Or where George Lucas.
Dialogue is not really his thing, and we see it even more with the prequels. But there is a moment that Layer and Luke cher and then Hahn joins them, and then he and even the way this is blocked, which is not George Lucas's fault. That's that's on Richard Marquin. But it's like a scene at the General hospital. Could so be bold and the beautiful, let's have a listen at and this is you know, this fall is probably.
Smack bang in the middle of back two.
And this may be white white SAgs a little bit, but this is Hahn and Layer.
Hey, what's going on?
Nothing? I just want to be alone for a little while.
Nothing. Come on, tell me what's going on?
I can't tell you.
Could you tell Luke?
Is that who you could tell?
Hi? I'm sorry, hold.
Me now, I was a twelve year old, you know, I was probably you know, went along with it.
But it's I mean, it's just it's just I wouldn't be surprised you.
George Lucas wrote that and was probably put his feet up on the desk and his hands beyond his head and went and nailed it, but he didn't.
He didn't like, I don't know.
It's half an hour of the film. You could have back if.
You Yes, I don't know how you make that stuff any better, but yeah it is.
But but I sort of reached a point very early on, like in Star Wars, I think, yeah, the first film where I just said, I'm just not going to invest in the woodenness of the performances and the dialogue or whatever. That's obviously that's the that's the house style.
Yes, but the performance only become wood when they're giving ship like that.
Yeah, you know what I mean, like that, the performances, Like I.
Love how much Mark Hamill commits to look Skywalker carry Fisher, the saying, the fistiness of Carrie Fisher. I love that there's a sense of from Harrison Ford of almost winking to the camera on occasion because I think he he you know, he was probably over Star Wars before anybody else, you know, where his career was making you know, Indiana Jones and and the Mosquito Coasts, you know, but by then where Mark Hamill's Look Skywalker and he was happy
to be Luke Skywalker. So I think performance is always great in Star Wars until they're given these personal scenes that are kind of not necessarily about the conflict of the force and that you know, actually.
About feelings that you know. It's just they can't make work.
Harrison Ford said, George Lucas, you can write these words, but you can't say them.
Yeah, it's a good vibe. Yeah. I think even the scene when Laya reveals to Harrison for to Han Solo, the misunderstanding that I know he's my brother. Yeah, yes, I mean we're glad it happened, I guess.
But it's the way it was supposed to end.
Was Luke Skywalker was supposed to be back in Tatoine, and he was supposed to walk off into the desert like a line which kind of in a way leads better to into which they weren't thinking of at the time obviously. I mean they were thinking this is it
like they was thinking even about George Lucas. May say he still had the prequels, you know, in mind or hope to make him, but there was there wasn't a lot of talk of the prequels back then, really, so the idea was that Luke just walked off into the desert Solo which when we see him in the Force Awakens, he's basically he's in isolation. You know, he's in exile. So it kind of would have married up quite nicely.
I have to ask you, as a huge Star Wars than like, given the way that this trilogy ends, and I think it ends really brilliantly, like, yeah, all my misgivings about this film aside there's a bow on it. Yeah, and it's rich. Yeah, it's done well. It's not just a happy ending, it's more than that, right, purely creatively. Did they need should they have left it?
No?
You think they should have done all there?
Yeah, because it's popcorn. It's entertainment, and I and I have loved, to be honest, the prequels. I would have I may have given you a different answer when it came to the prequels if if they stopped after the prequels, that's probably unecessarily. You probably just need to put it away now. I actually really enjoyed the recent trilogy. I have some issues with some of them, nothing the middle one.
I I'm disappointed there wasn't more engagement and consultation between J. J. Abrams and Ryan Johnson about I was really shocked to find out that they didn't really know what each other was doing. I find that you're part of Disney now like they own Marvel. Marvel did it over like a nineteen movie arc. You don't have a three of This is the most iconic film franchise of all time. So that was that was strange. With that said, I really enjoyed.
I felt the Force awakens. I really felt like it felt like a Star Wars movie where the prequels sometimes didn't to me, I also realized, I've come to accept that I was at a different age when the prequels obviously came out and I.
The Ewoks.
To me, what is what jar Jar Binks was to a lot of kids.
And so you're saying you don't like ju Jo Binks speak and understand that.
I can understand his appeal to younger I've seen my you know, I started watching it with my kids. They quite enjoyed jud Jo.
Binks because he's cutesy or something. Why is comedic?
You know?
Yeah, the how rude thing. I just took it back to full house. Yeah that is yeah, that was Jodie Sweeten. So but I've you know, and I watched every and then I'll just go back and watch the Rise of Skywalker. This is kind of go was I swept up in the moment. I've really really enjoyed.
So you think they've done justice to the I think so.
And I particularly loved the Mandalorian they have smashed out of the park. They I thought Bubba Fett was was was good and like a bit of fun.
Things about that.
Yeah, and you get to see there's.
A rank corps in there, and like another rank corps and you're back in Jabber's Palace, and and I and this anytime I can spend time in the Star Wars well, because it's just I was thinking about it this week actually.
And it's not just because I think, you know, why do I still connect with this that?
Because this is these are my formative years. And it wasn't just about seeing the movie. It was the trading cards where you know, it was all these things and this It wasn't you could just watch them as many times as you possibly could.
You you had to kind of work.
Out when you could you rent out Return of the Jedi, when was it coming out on video?
You take years for movies to be released on video.
After the sear three years before I was on TV. Yeah, there was a schedule.
Yeah, so until you had a recorded off TV, it was it just felt special.
It felt special, and yeah, so it was. It was.
I remember the trading cards, and the trading cards were like came out before you may be only seen it once or twice, and you'd almost relived the movie.
Through the through the cards. It was the figurines.
I had a screen suitcase I used to walk around with loaded with Star Wars figurines. And so any time I can spend in that universe, time in that universe, I I I love and I think Kenoby Canoby in a way justifies some of the prequels as well. So I thought Rogue one was brilliant and I can't wait for and Or where as we speak now less than two weeks away from that being released. I think it
looks amazing. And I thought Solo was unfairly maligned. I thought Solo was a really fun adventure that was actually like the fastest moving kind of Star Wars movie.
Just it felt like, go to woe, you can't have a fast moving styles.
There was no general hospital scene between Hahn and Layout excellent.
I will say about about Return of the Jedi, the Death the blowing up of the Death Star this time at least has more than three frames devoted to it. Yes, yeah, I couldn't help it get noticed in the first one. Yeah, instantly, it just sort of happened.
Let's go back to Let's go back to Jabba's palace. I want to talk about the plan. What do you think Luke's plan was to get out?
To get out?
So, okay, he sends the droids in Hans Frozen, his favorite. He's a memorabilia, Yes, got the Sportsman's Night, Yes, a lot of like a Collingwood jumper on and so. Then Luke sends the droids in unbigknownst to C three po but two's across it, as he often is. Then we go from and then Laya appears in disguise as a bounty hunter. That voice I forget who actually voiced it, but it's the voice of Et, same voice as Et if it sounds familiar. As she gifts Chewbacer to Jabber, who's happy with that.
Then she tries to.
She was She unfreezes hat and it looks like, oh, we're on here.
He can't see, but then recognizes her sweet breath and.
Voice amazing, It's beautiful, it is.
And then somehow, for some reason, Jabb is behind a curtain. They've been sitting there in the dark. Yeah, waiting. Yes, I must say that. When you hear that laugh, it is so beautifully executed.
But it is what's happening. We're just giving them a moment.
It's not just jabber and like one or two of his cronies. It's like it's like everyone who was at the party has waited up. It's like a it's like a weird grim surprise party.
It's very old and everybody. So when did he know that that bounty hunter was lea Yeah? Or did he did he?
Was he just following her?
Yeah? Who knows?
Yeah, I don't know. None of None of those sequence has made a great deal of sense to me. But I think I've told you before I'm very bad at watching actions scenes. Not that that's an action scene, but yeah, there's a lot of action scenes in that bit, And so I just assume when something like that happens that doesn't add up that it's me like, I'm just like, oh, well, I have no idea what's going on, But I assume everyone else is on board.
I've never really thought about like, it's never bothered me, and it still doesn't like it. Really, it really doesn't. But I was watching a game. What was the plan?
He said.
Luke then comes in pretty confident, I would say, very cool, got a newfound swagger.
Yes, and you're.
Going to die, even at the moment where he is most likely to be killed. Yeah, he's one hundred percent sure. This is what's going to like work out.
Despite his newfound Jedi powers, it seems to be unaware that he's standing.
On a trap door.
True.
Also, even when three Po tries to tell him he doesn't, can't quite finish the sentence off for him.
Yes, but also seems unwilling to use the Force in fighting these monsters. Well maybe the Force doesn't work on the monsters, but he's using the Jedi mind trick when he walks. I just never understand that we've had this conversation about I don't know exactly what the Force can do, but it seems to me it can do unbelievable things, except when you need to win a fistfight with somebody.
Well, it is funny because they will use that like in a battle scene like in a big battle scene with a vader. And this is even going to other films as well, Like yeah, like they it's bring on the Jedi stuff, but they won't use them for like just little things.
So I can only assume from that, and this is a big stretch, but I can only assume from that that Luke intends to be beaten and to be captured and then nearly killed.
Yes, why does he send everybody in? He sends everybody in the trapped.
I can't I can't work out why Layer went in there with Chewi and then Luke went in separately, Like what they mustn't have been talking. There's no communication therese leave Layer.
And Chewing there.
They're not really unless he's thinking they he needs them to help with the escape now either either he knows I've heard a theory that because Luke was born on Tateweine, he might know that Jabber likes to make a show of of you know, this is the Sarlak pit, so he might know that they will all be together.
And even so does he need that? Well, what's the theory there that Jabba wouldn't throw Luke into the pit alone? Because that's not theatrical enough so he needs.
If it's just Luke now, I think he sends our two in so he can have the lightsaber.
Yep, yep, so he's unarmed. He walks in unarmed. I like that.
Maybe could have mentioned that. They could have kind of said he's unarms. This is going to make that point.
He sends C three po in because he needs a translator.
You need to well, he doesn't need a translator.
Just on the translating point. This drove me mad. I was C three po is translating for Jab of the Hut? Is he giving him the messages back in English? If that's the case, why does Jabba just talk directly to the people who are speaking English. There's a moment I'm sure where Jabba says these Jabba stuff. C three po speaks in English to whoever it was. It might have been Layer at the time doing the negotiation. Bayer replies in English. Three tells him in English. You can hear.
That I did like that name.
In whatever language it is R two duties. So the first two he's just been AUSD two yeah, but the second two is yeah yeah, it's subtle.
It's a beautiful language. Also, their music is very American yes.
Well, and that's that's new.
So that whole bigger things you kind of tell when that's just going up like that was is this basically that blue Elephant thing, and that was kind of pretty much the band And so that's.
Just more just fun. Yes, right, that doesn't need to be that.
It doesn't need to be there.
But I mean we love the cut the world, but the universe building of Star Wars.
Well, I think that's actually in the end that's probably the reason it's become as huge as it is, because I think it's ultimately like all the stuff I was talking about before, about the moral arc of it and everything, I really like, I'm pretty sure the kids were not that excited about that. It's just the aesthetics of it. Darth Vader has a great aesthetic. The Stormtroopers have a great aesthetic. And even now watching it with all the sort of POxy effects you know, where they that doesn't
look that muppet looks like it's a ridiculous muppet. It doesn't look like it's this thing that's come to life. It's not well done by contemporary standards. Right, Even then, there's just there's something in the aesthetic that just makes you want to watch it. It makes you want to look at it, it makes you want to buy into it. It's perfect for the figurines, et cetera. Which is why it doesn't surprise me to hear you say anytime you can spend in that world, because I think what you're
saying is anytime you can spend rounded by that esthetic. Yeah, there's a you know, there's it's it's hyper modern in the sense that it's space and all this, but it's also ancient, right the the way the Jedis dress, the like, that's even and to come back to the moral dimensions of it, even that that's a very like traditional old
fashioned morality, right, all of it. It's basically like an order of some sort like monks or whatever, right, the sort of trained, initiated warrior type person these are these are ancient ideas. So it's got these incredible the incredible mix, I think if the ancient and the hypermodern. There's lasers and stuff like that, but it's really just sword play. Yeah, it's all that sort of I think, whether deliberately or otherwise, I think it's very much nailed that esthetic.
I think George Luigels is going for that Matine kind of you know, space fantasy, you know, very much nodding the hat to you, old mate. Movies and and and many many kinds of influences. I mean, that's why the Jedi, you know, where it can be a little bit inconsistent sometimes, you know, because it's a made up it's a made up religion, and it's a little bit of this, and it's a little bit of that. I mean, even some of the languages. So Ninnam, which is Lando's co pilot, he speaks a Kenyan dialect.
Is that right?
Yeah, And apparently audiences in Kenya were so thrilled to hear their language spoken and actually they spoke properly on screen. It was and it was voiced by Kenyan student living in the US. And the Ewoks. There's a couple of different dialects called languages going on. There's a Filipino language, and there's also some Ewoks speak a language I think Kalmilk language spoke by some Buddhist tribe in southern Russia.
So now, I mean, I'm heartened by hearing that the Kenyans were like on board and like going, wow, this is they're speaking this properly. So I hope they've gone and done that with the same due diligence with other languages as opposed as doing asient accents, for example.
But if they're using languages like that, though they're pretty obscure, you'd probably be hard pressed to find someone who can do anything in it that isn't speaking of.
Problem and nine eighty seven, chances are you won't hear the complaints that the Southern Russians Russian Buddhists probably ain't.
No, probably not getting I did have one question though about the Ewoks. You know that scene where they they first run into them and they decide to see three pos their God and all this sort of stuff.
Yes, has that.
Attracted a lot of criticism for being racist or have people just kind of waved that through?
Not that I've heard, no, because.
As I was watching it, it's kind of like, you know, it's the drums and you know, oh, we see this, you know, we're really primitive and here's this modern thing and will make you out God because well why wouldn't we, you know, they don't have any reason to make him their god. It's just kind of it just felt a.
Bit like, I guess because these is golden yeah, old if it was Luke like the Golden Cuff, Yeah it was Luke or hahnh you might kind of go okay, but because he's literally made of gold, I think that yeah maybe. I mean, I've never thought of that.
I must say it.
I've never heard it, but I'm not saying it doesn't you know, I'm sure that I was communities there's a broad one.
Or even I'm sure there's a take out there like that. But I was just wondering about because it felt a bit like a kind of africaure, a caricature of primitive Africans or something like that. That's kind of how but I mean, I wasn't like on fire about or anything, but as I was watching it, I was just kind of, I wonder if that's been a thing like that's sort of debates out there, but if not, they're not.
Yeah. I did enjoy the.
Three po explaining the story of them, like and doing all the sound effects and taking them through that like that felt you know, like I said, we mentioned quite few times, Act two does lag a little bit, but it felt like a little breath at that point. I had no issue with them growing up. When I first I loved them.
They were so popular.
It was so popular. I mean they had the Caravan of carriages and.
I've seen that film.
Yeah, have you seen Carabana Carriage.
I remember very little about it except when something bad happens they go, oh.
Yeah, their own cartoon it was, you know, and Warrick Davis was. I think it's wicked and funnily enough, the term ewoks never used and no names are used either, but there you know we.
Know in the credits.
Is that only in the new film?
Maybe in the new film?
Yeah?
Right? Do you think though, because I remember that they were huge, because you said, this is eighty seven, So I was in grade three and I remember it's being massively popular. So I was probably at that age where everyone I didn't know what they were. I didn't know why. I knew as a Star Wars thing. Yeah, everyone loves so clearly for kids, like they're basically teddy bears, right, So that all makes sense. But is it a better
film if there aren't that whole thing is gone? Yeah, I mean it's it's a much shorter film.
It's a much shorter film. It does provide Star Wars I think has been committed to. There being some laughs along the way some levity, and I think it gives you that it gets I mean, you could take place, you know, it could be Hahn could also have this
adventure with Layer and the droids and Chewy elsewhere. It does give you this beautiful final act that we and there's other ways of achieving it, There's no doubt, but the three points, the three stories going in that third act where you've got the battle in the empress throne room, which is just incredible. You have end or going on in the Ewoks. You know, the underdogs. You know you're
on our turf, we know, and it invitded me. Actually funny enough of I watched thirteen Larves recently and I responded, really and I didn't notice part of the story. This is the story of you know, Richard Harris onon Train of the Year. But you know the divers who went into the rescue the tight and there was a local, a local who they couldn't the warter kept on coming from above down into the caves and then they had a drain and there was a local who.
Basically got.
Local bamboo, and kind of we was able to split them in a way that you could like time together the water, and it was amazing. I don't ever knew that happened, but I remember really responding to that guy.
You know, that's how amazing local.
Local knowledge, local knowledge is great, and that I thought of that when I was watching he Box local knowledge.
Yes, it's like it's like the Vietnam War. You're on out for Afghanistan. You don't win in Afghanistan, you don't. They know, they know what they're doing.
And it was actually a Californian forest. It was due for logging, so they were able to actually knocked down trees.
Right. Did they end up logging it in the end or did they say, oh, you know what, now it's a movie.
That was protect End or Protect End or Let's talk about Vader's mask off, because obviously it is actually before we do that. Did you sense there was a change in Vader even before that moment, because there is a lot. I certainly sensed there was more doubt about Vader once he was united reunited with Luke. They refer to each other as father and son. My take on it is now that Vader was having those doubts but could not see a way that he could make this week.
So he was deferring to the emperor.
That's interesting. I have to admit I didn't sense that. I would certainly defer to your judgment over mine.
But it's almost new because I hadn't seen it for a while, and watching it, I was like, I just sense there's a the word sense movement in the force, but a sense that Vader was touch more passive in moments.
But is that just due to the Emperor's presence.
Yeah, possibly because he does.
But even the emperor they have a massive fight. I think the reason I didn't think that was Luke walks in there very confident that you're not going to take me to the emperor. As he says that, right, there's a lie because I can't remember what he says before it. But he goes, and that's why you're not going to take it, because there's good in you and you're not going to do it. And he goes, all right, let's go see the emperor.
Yeah, and that's it did not work out.
Yeah, even so Luke still holds onto the belief that this will work out. But that I just read that as the symbol to the audience that no, he's Vader's fully committed. Yeah, right, and I don't know, maybe that was meant to be a symbol that Luke's wrong, and so it's a bait and switch thing. I don't know. But from that, I mean that he clearly has regret at the last, the very last moment. Then his hand gets taken off, et cetera, and he sees that like
when the moment of truth arrives, Vader discovers what's true. Right, But up until that moment, I don't Actually I don't know when it switched if if it wasn't at that moment. But I, like, I say, I've seen it once and I was just like, oh my god, his helmet's not on, like you know, I was still processing all.
That yeah sort of stuff.
Yeah, yeah, it's it's the first time I kind of saw it.
I don't know.
Maybe you've watched it so many times, maybe you've well.
Is there a prevailing view?
I don't think so.
I haven't really discussed that really with I mean, I probably haven't dicussed Return of the Jedi probably with anyone for since seven.
Right, Okay, really I assumed you were at all the conventions.
No, I'm too busy Collingwood Games.
Isn't that one of the you look like stormtroopers, simply the dark side.
Let the mask coming off? What what?
What did you make of it? Were you expecting to
What?
see James Earl Jones or what?
What was?
What?
We were your thoughts of how that was played out.
I do find it interesting that it was basically dragging like this, this guy they've been after all these years, and he's dragging you know, Darth Vader through to that start.
Nobody seems to give a ship.
Yeah, that is true. Actually I hadn't thought about that. But then again, with you know, things that.
Were going pair shaped by then, everyone was out for themselves.
Yeah, that's probably was that before after the ship came into that control room.
That might have been just before. It was around that time that stuff's that stuffs happening.
Yeah, yeah, I I mean I think that was just a thing where, oh my god, I can't believe they're doing this.
In fact, let's have a listen to Vader Vader's mask coming off.
No go shut.
Leave, No, you're coming with me.
I'll not leave you here. I've got to save you. You're right, you're all right, you're right about me.
Anything it is, it is actually beautiful and that doesn't come across as as Malkish is. The general hospital scene we played for Mendo between Luke and Sohan and Lay earlier, it's actually quite sweet. I like that the the you know, all the mechanics of the you know, the voice is human stripped away.
Yeah.
Yeah, he ceases to be the machine. Hence everyone's wrong when he says he's more machine than men. But I think what's beautiful about that is the idea that whether I live or dies not, what's important. What's important is that I've I'm redeemed, and so you've saved me. That's it. That's what matters. And that's that's a big idea.
You know, that's.
It's it's big because it's about something more than the politics of it. It's it's about something really human. Right Yeah. And I but the thing I was hanging on as soon as I saw the thing off, the mask off, I was like, what's his voice going to be?
Yeah?
Yeah, because that's all I want to say. It was like, is Darth Vader's voice a product of a machine? Because I never thought of him as a machine. Weirdly, like, until Ibi one said he's more machine than man, I was like, oh, I'd never really maybe I forgot a moment in one of the previous ones where it got revealed.
When I first watched the Star Wars as like an eight year old, I thought he was so I had the opposite thing coming from a very different agent and point of view, and so I knew he was exactly is.
Before I knew any of that, I either thought he's a robot.
Yeah, man, because you know my world was about robots, not necessarily humans within.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It turns out his cry, yeah, yeah, he's inside this.
I do wonder if Darth Vader could tell a difference between zebra crossings and work at the peatures for identification purpose A good point, that's how you would because he's a man, he's kind of a robot.
Well, this is the alternative way that that scene with Obi One goes. Obi One says he's more machine than man, and Luke says, we'll hang on.
Through traffic a many trucks. He's like, I'm still it still makes me nervous. I still don't know.
But they did.
Yeah.
I thought it was amazing about obviously he's lying down on the ground, but they did this amazing thing of making someone who's so huge and formidable look meek, yeah, and old and physically incapable. Really yeah, and that's yeah. I thought that was really well done. The gashes on his head and all that, And obviously he's totally white, and I assume that's just what he looks like because he's so decrepit. I think that's the idea, rather than
that he's covered in something. So it's almost like what you're seeing there is the toll of the dark him. I think that he's he's submitted him his succumbed to the dark side. And it's not that that makes you more powerful, it's that that actually destroys you. And and he's in the end destroyed and all he can do is finally redeem himself, but only with his last breath, because that's all that the dark sides left him with. Really,
that's kind of how I see it. I don't know if that's the way it's meant.
To be or what if it No, I think that's a good read.
Yeah, but I thought, yeah, I thought it was a beautiful moment, and the voice was crucial to me, the fact that he in that moment, he's not Vader anymore, because they set up this idea that Vader and any kind of different things and different people, or one's not a person, and so it was kind of good in the end that there was nothing about him that was Vader at all. Vader was completely gone in that moment.
Well, you have passed once again. Once again. What's your favorite Wars film?
I think I'm saying. I think I'm saying in Past.
Strucks back, Okay, it's fine as well.
Is that it's a popular answer.
He is a very popular answer.
How many Jedi people would you say?
There are.
What have been Jedi people would say Return of the Jedi? Oh, sorry, with the actual jedis coming out, so it does? It does?
I think the Jedi might have been I loved it when I came out, and it might have been mine the same way Temple of Doom was my favorite. Indiana Jones and I got a bit older, and I thought that Raiders is a better movie, I would say, And then New Hope, I'd say Empire is probably considered most people's favorite, and New Hope closely behind, and Jedi third. And then there's a whole get into a whole other thing of like where what people think of some people love the prequels, some people love the.
That's that's far too complicated for me to try and figure out.
That Rogue one might be an interesting one for you to watch, right, okay, because that leads directly into the New Hope and the new series and or is based in that world.
Right, how many episodes in a series like that?
I think? Also?
Okay, so it's like a long film.
Yeah, the prequels that you know, it's up to you now you're on your own time.
I have seen one of them in a film in a cinema in Adelaide. I remember nothing about it except that I thought it was terrible.
But you could cheat potentially and kind of have a bit of a catch up and then watch Revenge of the Sith, which is the best of the prequels, Okay, I think, And that's like like Vader becoming Vader, and the rest is he's like a kid basically, and he's a kid.
And yes, one of the ones I saw, we look like a teenager.
Yeah, yeah, And I could bring you up to speed to get you if you want to watch Revenge a Sith.
But I put it this way, I think Empires my favorite, but we could have a conversation like one day and after half an hour I would say Jedi, Like you could convince me if you if you set out to say, now, look, Jedi is the best.
You just got to If anyone said Turn of the Jedi is my favorite, I wouldn't be like what.
Yeah, I think it's just that the flaws of it are so obvious. That's the problem. But I also think it has the best moments. Yeah, so it's at the highest points of the trilogy, but as at the lowest, and so I don't know what to do.
Some fun facts before we head off. It took six people to work Jabber and his animatronic obviously, and the Jabba when he moved, because we love it. Of sound design facts, when he moved Bilbert ben Bert, it's the sound of him running his hands through a cheese casserole, which is the perfect thing for Jabber. I think I think he would love a bit of mac and cheese.
And also another sound design in Vaders footsteps were recorded in an underground tunnel under the Golden Gate Bridge give him an ominous feel.
That makes makes sense.
I should have done it at Alcatraz. Imagine that what a story that.
Would then you could actually sell, yes, hike up the price. They called the working title for this movie was Blue Harvest, and part of that was to keep because obviously it was the biggest movie in town, to keep the secrets scripts and were tightly guarded, but also to keep location costs down because as soon as you're saying we want to shoot at your blah blah your forest, or we want permits and you say we're shooting the third Star
Wars movie, people get onto it. So Blue Harvest was the They were also originally titled Revenge of the Jedi, and that was almost they went almost to the end of calling it Revenge of the Jedi, and then George Lucas realized that it's not part of a Jedi's.
Yeah, it's not revenge. That's the whole point.
That's the whole point.
How did they not did they not read that scene?
Yeah? Well, obviously ben Kenobi.
Didn't also allowed them to have a Revenge of the Sith all those years later, what they did.
That was part of the thinking they eventually because they did think Revenge of the Jedi is a catchier title, yes, but it didn't work. And Selacious Crumb who's a little like puppet thing on Jabba's tail when he was that Pubble was taking the C three pos I am Anthony Daniels had a panic attack. It's a little bit of fun and was also in the Bible. It's really yeah, it's some mentioned somewhere in the Bible. There's no ewoks though.
Oh really? Yeah, okay, have you read through to the end of Revelation because it might be in Revelations.
I mean I thumbed through the Bible and Jesus did say.
I just know there's a lot of stuff in Revelations. If you told me there were eos, I would believe you.
But mate, thank you so much. Great the chat not just a Return of the Jedi, but Four Lines. I recommend checking that out as well.
No worries.
Thanks for watching it, my pleasure.
See you on the projects.
Should we go to work, Yeah, I'm sorry.
There it is.
Loved having that conversation with my mate while about Return of the Jedi and Four Lines, I think of had fascinating insights into both of those movies, especially in Return of the Jedi, well not especially, I thought the Four Lines discussion I loved, but as far as the ongoing.
Star Wars trilogy. To hear somebody speak about a movie that has been so discussed and.
Torn apart in a way, not in a necessarily a bad way, but analyzed the here fresh perspective, I thought was really interesting.
I hope you enjoyed it as well. Just a couple of things.
We are getting a lot of speak pipes and we're not airing them at the moment because we just the way we're recording these, we're recording them a little bit in isolation, a little bit.
We're a little bit disjointed at the moment, but we will catch up.
And I want to thank thank you for all the emails and your speak pipes, keep them coming. Also, thank you to everyone who came to their live show at the in the Brussel Valley for the Grapes of Mirth festival that Merrick Watts and his team put together. What a fantastic weekend that while and the live show with Nazim Hussein and Merrick Watts discussing the movie one of my favorite movie, Sideways, was just it was a magical experience.
We absolutely loved it. And that will be available in a few weeks right here for everybody.
To listen to, but next week is a show.
There's also was recorded live at an event on the Sunshine Coast, actually in Calowndra great conversation with w make Shane Jacobson, one of the absolute journeymen and quadruple threats of Australian showbiz. We recorded it that he That's not My Dog Festival and each live event we've had they've been very different. We've had Jude Lucy at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival, Tom Gleason at the Brunswick Ballroom, the zem who's saying in a wine cellar with Merrick Wants.
This was done outdoors and it's a very different vibe, but it's a lot of note needs.
It was a lot of fun.
But it was just great to get Shane's perspective and he's chatting about a film from off the top of my.
Head nineteen ninety six.
Maybe it's Trainspotting, Danny Boyle, we've seen the Rise of You and McGregor, Robert carlisles in there. It's a cracking movie. I probably write it as a perfect movie. I think it's pretty brilliant and we'll be doing that on the Sunny Sunshine Coast, me and Shane Jacobson on stage in a park somewhere talking about train spotting. You don't want to miss it until then, take care, and so we leave Old Pete save Lansall, and to our friends of the radio audience, we've been a pleasant good name.