Simon 'Yon' Hall and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

Hey you today, Pete Hell are you here? Welcome to you ain't seen nothing yet? The Movie Podcast where I chat to a movie lover. Have I a classic or beloved movie they haven't quite got around to watching until now? And today's guests Simon Hall aka Yawn.

All below.

I want to stay here with you.

Got little jobble my hat, snake shucked my hail.

They couldn't haven't a right, So you ain't seen nothing new.

Very excited today they have my great mate Yonnie returning to the Yasney studio. He visited about a year or so ago to do in the Heat of the night with the great Sir Sidney Poitier. Yanni I've known for nearly thirty years and I love to chat to him about pop culture, whether it's music or movies. He's always curious, engage, knowledgeable, really fun bloke to hang out with. Fun and funny. He's a one third of the Tripod with his great mates Gatsy and Scott. But he's also got a podcast

My name's jan and my next three favorite films broadcast news.

You know I'm not.

Because I think we have a kind of friendship where if I were the devil, You'll be the only one I.

Would tell secrets and lies.

Are you married? No?

No?

Hi?

Are its sweet?

I'll bet you got a boyfriend?

No wer No, I know at the moment, a nice looking girl like you.

Have you got a boyfriend.

I'll give them all a wide berth.

They got me into enough trouble.

In the post.

And the Pianist, I told you what we do, just tried and test your message. You no more, tweeted in the last war. Hey, you made a whole table legg and hit the money in there.

And suppose they take the table away? What do you mean take the table away?

The Germans go into Jewish homes and they just take what they want, furniture and valuables, anything do they Hey, what do they want with it?

They were like this.

For you doing that? Up until this week, I'd never seen who's a frid of Virginia Wolf?

Fix me a drink, had Or, I said, fix me a drink.

I don't suppose I can't killing one of us?

A like, cap are you killing? You?

Got? Yes?

What guess guests?

Guests?

Yeah, guess people. We've got guests coming over.

Now, Lord Mushin, you know what time it is? In nineteen sixty six, under a full moon, middle aged married couple Martha and George real life married couple Liz Taylor and Richard Burton Instellar form drunkenly stumbled home from a university faculty party. Despite the late hour and the level of intoxication, their night is far from over. Martha has invited a young couple, Nick and Honey, George Siegel and Sandy Dennis, both excellent, who they met at the party

I'm definitely afraid of Virginia.

Thanks for coming back to do you insy nothing yet? I love a returning guest in the head of the Night. Last time it was a lot of fun. This one's a bit different. The reason we're doing Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf? Is because we bumped into each other at the theater.

Yes, there's a great production on at the moment in Melbourne, yep, at the Comedy Theater. It's a red Stitch production. So it's a tiny theater company who have done a big old like it's a huge production. Well, it's a huge theater anyway, which makes it a huge production. So in this production it's Kat Stewart and David Whiteley as the two main characters, and George and their partners as well in real life.

Will turn our thoughts to the film when we come back. But I want to talk about your next three favorite films. So in the intro I did mention Michael Clayton in the Line of Fire and eighth Grade with your first three favorite films, But your next three favorite films, Let's start with Broadcast News. I'd seen it kind of when it came up, but it didn't me much to me.

Does that mean he had not seen it on the books?

Oh wow?

Again.

It's sort of that it's comedy, but it's really talking about really serious things at the same time, and there are plenty of really serious, non funny moments that are played. It's pretty close to comedy a lot of the time. It just feels like the best thing that what it's about. Like there's a movie network that I watched recently because that's sort of seen as the great sort of expose of broadcast journalism and all that. But I feel like Network dates in a way that broadcast news doesn't at

And that's what.

Maybe the ending's not amazing. It depends where you count the ending from.

But true, I think as well, it's a good example because they're deal with similar topics. In many ways. Network feels like it's from the seventies and broadcast films is you know, mid eighties eighty six or something like that. Yeah, I think broadcast news is a more entertaining watch absolutely, you know, like network is a very oh yes, yeah, and you know, Network for its time was probably a lot more edgy for its time, and broadcastings, like broadcast

Yeah.

Yeah, it's like making like, you know, points and about certain things. And it's as Jim McGuire was about, you know, sports and deals, and I think broadcast news is making that with a bit more popcorn in it.

Yeah, it's got that eighties sort of excited ability. You know, the music gets going and it's quite sort of upbeat, and it's got that famous scene with Joan Cusack running to you know, there's like two minutes until they broadcast and they've suddenly realized, oh, we need to get this, we need to get this Norman Rockwell painting into the edit quick quickly, and it's just this fun set piece where she's running she.

Limbos under the file yeah, And when I think of Broadcast News, probably i've rewatched it. It's not the one I think about the most of that scene, but I growing up, if you said broadcast news to me, that was image I saw, Yeah, Joan Cuzack under it, the Fine Cabinet, Secrets and Lies, Mike Lee, Brenda Bleath and like, what an amazing I was Timothy Sprawl like, oh sweet, I think this is my It might have been my first Mike League experience. I think I think I saw Naked after I saw Secrets and Lies.

I had seen Naked, and I didn't enjoy it at all.

Nakeds are hard to watch than this. Yeah.

Yeah, Secrets and Lies is almost like his popcorn me, like, yeah, it's hilarious.

The thing that this is mike Le's popcorn movie, because I do agree.

It's just really palatable and all the family stuff so relatable, whereas Naked is telling a story of of like a really marginalized character that's kind of well, I personally found really hard to relate to. I guess I think I want to watch it again. I probably would like it now having lived a bit longer, because I think I saw it when it came out like when I was.

Such a massive thing when you know where we are in our lives when we sit down and watch a movie, you know, like, yeah, and comedies are great because generally comedies are designed to work for a broader audience, you know, not always but often. But I think, like I said, broadcast news didn't hit me, you know when I was twelve or thirteen, right, and I watched it, you know, a couple of years ago when I'm in my mid to late forties and it's like, okay, yeah, I get this,

It absolutely and it is very plotty, like possibly unlike his other movies aren't, as they're more sort of character based, but this has characters like the plot's really important and who knows what when and when it gets revealed and what happens at the end, Like it's all very when we like a movie that's like a Swiss watch is very that.

Yeah, you know, yeah, your third film, well, technically your sixth film is The Pianist, a great film. It kind of brought age in Brodie too. Each Winsioska for.

This, Yeah, well I know, he still does stuff, so he's sort of disappeared relative to that hugeness.

Right, Yeah, he does with Anderson Films the Hotel, and he's always excellent, always excellent. You know, sometimes when you see a film, you're like, I'm glad I don't know the history of this actor, Like I'm seeing there's an excitement about seeing somebody for the first time, and I think this film has worked really well for that.

You could believe the character because yeah, you didn't know him from some other thing. I think one of the great things about it is like it's a Holocaust movie, and we've seen so many of them now, but it's got a really specific angle and it's kind of like, what if a famous guy happened to be a Jew at that time, who was then you know, going to be hunted down and possible blea killed. But I don't

This is crazy that you like change, Yes, so quickly and so and so horrifically and traumatically. I mean, the world changed. Simmler's List had come out before This Life is Beautiful, I think was even before this. There were other Holocaust films being made as well. There seemed to be, for whatever reason, an appetite for these holocaust films.

Sometimes that can be like it's like, oh, we've we've you know, we've seen this story too recently. But it didn't feel like that at all.

Yeah, I must revisit it because I think I saw it when it came out, but I have not watched it since. Okay, let's talk about the film we are here to talk about.

I actually fell through him. It that there.

Martha's a romantic at heart.

That I am.

I actually fell for him, and the match scene practical too. For a while, Daddy really thought that George had the stuff to take over when he was ready, and we both thought the national.

You want, I wouldn't done with you.

Wouldn't would you?

Would you not?

You've already sprung a leak about you know what? What what about the sprout? The little bugger our son, if you started in this other business matha, I warn.

You, I stand warned.

Do we really have to go through all this? So?

Anyway, I married the SOB. I had it all planned out. First he'd take over the history department. Then when Daddy retired, he'd take over the whole college.

You know.

That was the way it was supposed to be, Getting angry, Vine, that was the way it was supposed to be. All very simple, And Daddy thought it was a good idea too for a while, until he started watching for a couple of years getting angry, Until he watched for a couple of years and started thinking that maybe it was such a good idea after all, that maybe Georgie boy didn't have the stuff, that maybe he didn't have a Dennis stopping mother like hell I will you see, George

Stop it, mother.

I hope that was an empty bottle, George, you can't afford to waste good liquor, not on your salary, not on a social professor's salary.

Was getting fiery, yarn? Did you enjoy? Were spoken a bit about the play. Did you enjoy the film by Mike Nicholson nineteen sixty six, starring, of course, Richard Burton, Liz Taylor, George the Girl, and Sandy Dennis. Did you enjoy Who's Afraid of Woman?

I mean, obviously, I'm sitting there comparing it to the play, especially because we only saw it a week before. It's just shot so sparely, just looks really crisp and beautiful. I don't think I've ever seen a Liz Taylor films. I don't think I have.

I think Liz Taylor is a good jumping off point here, because I agree growing up, Liz Taylor was the woman who got married a shit ton of times.

Yeah, you know, and she was always a new idea, new idea.

Yeah makesif Michael Jackson, Yeah, of course he knew about the celebrity of Liz Taylor. And I am so glad I've watched this film because I think this is one of the greatest screen performances I've ever seen. It's so good.

It's good because of a lot of the things we were saying about Cat's do it, Like, it's that crazy role that just you have to deliver so many things and she totally does that, and she didn't want to take on the role as Richard Burton who convinced her to do it.

Originally they wanted James Mason and Betty Davis to do it. I mean they were like, isn't that the Brandelina of their time? And they're both, you know, extremely talented but flawed human beings. Liz Taylor had they in their contract they don't have to work before ten am. They can go on a two hour lunch. They would go on long lunches, like boozy lunches and come back and apparently they would lovely the work with like they were, you know, really kind of kind and engaged and wanted to be there.

The drinking is a huge part of the play. Like if you had to describe the movie or the play, if you had to describe the story, you have to talk about the fact that everyone for most of it is really drunk.

They all start drunk to a degree they come from a party.

Yes, yeah, and it's that kind of repetitive thing that people do when they drink. That the dialogue's really repetitive, but it kind of works, like, particularly for someone with a sieve head like me who can't remember details, it really helps you as an audience. But because they keep repeating themselves and you're like, oh, that's right, yep, there is that thing about the sun. Good, yep, good.

Well. It's often people talk about the locations a character in this film. But alcohol alcohol alcohol alcohol. Yeah, absolutely an alcohol movie, because there's no drugs in the movie play. At least. I think there was a reference to hiding. I'm not sure they were the cigarettes, or if they were, you know, I don't think that was in the film.

I think it would break it. I mean, for a start, there's a whole lot of imaginary talk going on, yes alcohol or not.

Yes, I think alcohol he's probably seen as more of a truth serum. Yeah, and I think drugs are taken to a different area, So I think that's probably a choice that they've made.

But also in that world, like it's depicting that world of college professors and stuff, could probably argue that college professors are getting into a lot of drugs. I guess they're drinking spirits, aren't they. They getting into the hard stuff.

Yeah, the amount of drinking is phenomenal. And this is obviously it's a play, and it was considered unfilmable and it was extraordinarily racy for its time. It was like, you know, because the films that you know, this is a sixties it's not in sixty six, so there's a loosening up of certain social values. But there's still, you know, movies that are playing along to the you know, the American dreams, and talking about that with this is like smashing the American dream.

The American dream.

Yeah, because there is a lot of going on about reality and illusion here and I think America perhaps more than most countries, and not that they're alone. In Australia, I think we do it as well, but I think they're guilty of feeding themselves their own narrative and really believing it. Yeah, Like a lot of Americans have the blinkers on, yeah, and they can't you know much about the rest of the world. But this is the greatest

But it's that sort of salesman sort of mindset of like if I believe it, then it will be like yes.

And that's a massive part. This is like almost the central thing that's happening in this in this film, it with the kid. Yeah. Yeah, so that Yeah, it's considered unfilmable. It comes out it's obsos I mentioned in the intro, but the most expensive black and white film. They tried to convince him not to make it in black and white, Mike Nichols, and he basically said, I'll walk if you

And I did notice those lines and I go, oh, they look like makeup, But I was just kind of interpreting them as she you know, perpetually hungover lines as opposed to age lines. And she totally seemed old enough to me to be doing what she was doing, Like I didn't for a minute go oh, she's too young.

I think Mike Nichols does a really good job of adapting this. He's the right guy. He's his film debut, but I think he's the right guy because he knows the theater well, but he knows enough about film obviously, and as we will go on to prove that, he's kind of a genius. But I think that it does the work benefits from taking it outside of the apartment. Yep.

I really like the stuff when they go out to the swing, yeah, and the way that's shot and a lot of it's from a distance, and then there's a really great moment when the swing is just sort of swaying from side to side behind them, because so much of it is those sort of static.

It's just a great little effect. I don't know what it's saying, but that's all about the characters. So we're talking about met Liz Table. But Richard Burton plays George. He was concerned about playing because you know, he'd never played a wimp before. Is he a wimp? Like? He certainly fights Baggie. Well, he throws a few punches in this one. Like you can argue he's the nastiest piece of work in this play.

I think at the start you feel like she's really owning him. She's really sort of cruel to him. Particularly at the start, you know, we're finding out about how his career is stalled. And but yeah, by the end, he totally I guess he what wins, although it's sort of a bit sweet at the.

End is a question do they love each other?

I think they like each other.

Yeah, well, which is enough to sustain the marriage. I think you're liking is as important as loving, I think sometimes, and I think both are important. I think they do love each other.

I think they find each other funny, and there's a little bit of chemistry. Yeah, so I guess love is probably the right word.

There's a moment before the guests arrive where they're kind of lying on the bed and they're teasing each other but not having enough teeth on going board.

Yeah.

Yeah, and they're genuinely laughing. It's a bit later on in the movie where they sing a song and they're kind of mocking you know, one of the guests, And you see these little moments of love, and I agree, we won't get to the ending too quickly, but there is some sweetness I think in the end. Yeah, so I think they do love each other. The other question I would have is do you think this night where they've invited these two younger people over is a once

When I was first watching it, and to be honest, that was during the play, I was wondering that. But I think by the end, isn't the reason we're watching this night is because she's broken the rule of talking about the made up son, Yes, in front of other people and that's why we're watching.

So, you know, And I thought about the same things because like she.

Wasn't supposed to she's never done that before because he hasn't destroyed her.

And it's a really good point. And I thought about it as I was watching it as well, like and there needs be reasons like why this is a film, you know, And I was in the carriage, don't dicuss why this is a film, but like you know, we have the going to go why are we watching this night? And you're absolutely right, this night is the night because

Absolutely, like when you're in a cup like you do sometimes like put on a show for people and you try and sort of go, oh, look, we're a bit edgy, but we love each other, you know.

And sometimes you just miss you slightly. That was but yeah, I think it's a fascinating kind of idea of and I completely agree with you that we are watching this night The reason we are watching this in twenty twenty four when it was made in nineteen sixty six is because this is the night that Martha betrayed their pact of mentioning the kid. Yeah, what makes her do that

But probably at least half of their marriage.

You would think so, Yeah, you'd think so. So how many nights have they spoken to other couples about the kid? Why is it tonight? Yeah, like Martha transgressed and it happened quickly. That's the other thing. Why is he so concerned that she will? Maybe this points in the fact that maybe this isn't a regular thing. Maybe this is, you know, a rare thing that they've invited people over the house. Maybe this is the first time they've had guests.

Thing, but she mentions it. Really early, and it's too honey, isn't it. Yeah, she breaks the rule after he warns her. Yeah, she actually goes upstairs and says, oh, we have a kid. Yeah, so is Martha kind of fixing for a fight? Why did she invite these two kids over to your young adults over to the house. Well, it's two am. All we know about the party that they've come from is that she was singing that song and everyone after as often.

Yeah, I thought it was great.

Is there anything else that happened at the party that would make her not.

That I remember? I think I said to you a more than any other film I think I've covered for this podcast. I'm still processing this. Yeah, you know, I've did a little bit of deep diving, but more about the making of the film and that. So, I like, there's so many questions I have. I mean, the kid itself, is that related to the speech that George makes? I think George Killy's parents. Was George the kid in the car?

I still don't know the answer to that.

I think he is.

There's something about he might have somehow accidentally killed his parents or.

Yeah, I suspect it is. I think, why have it in there? If there's no real not that there's a payoff, because we don't know, but I think it's likely. It's the differenttween plays and movies. And this is obviously movie has been from a play. Players ask more questions. Yeah, I like to ask more questions with that necessary and let you think about them, where movies are generally more

Of course, there's a whole other thing where he was writing a novel about a kid who kills his dad in a car crash, and there's something about a porcupine trying to avoid a porcupine, which he then uses later as a detail in the story about their made up son and about how he died in his supposed accident.

You know, when he goes I think George was the kid in the car, right, Okay? I like that idea. Does it marry up completely like accidentally shooting his mother and then almost like was it a deliberate act, to deliberately hit a tree on the right side of the car to kill Was there a pocky pint at all? Well, there's a lot of real imagined reality versus.

And it all kind of fade into each other. So it's really hard to unpick that stuff because it feels like there's like, there's the story about their son, then there's allusions to his own parents. Then there's allusions to this kid that he talks about in the bar, whoever laughed at because he mispronounced that drink.

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know what's going on with that stuff.

Yeah, feel free if you know, get on speak Pipe, follow the links on our pages. Speak Pipe and you can leave a message for us. Will either hear your voice or yasny podcast at gmail dot com if you have any answers in regards who's afraid of Virginia Wolf, Let's talk about Sandy Dennis and George Siegel. Honey and nick names you don't actually hear on screen. You may hear honey, but it's unsure whether honey's their actual name or just you know, in the term yeah, hey honey, yeah, yeah, Yeah.

I think it's really hard to play drunk well YEP because she has to be drunker than everyone else and more of a mess YEP. And she does it so well. She's got that great look of confusion and then she pivots, and.

She's so good. When you first see her, Yeah, she looks like she's in nineteen sixty six, and she's got a certain acting star that feels like nineteen sixty six. But as the movie progresses, I think it becomes quite a modern performance. So she is extraordinary. And you've got this story, of course, of how they came to be married. She's from money, so there's an initial attraction there from Nick. But then she had a hysterical pregnancies.

I still do quite know what all that means.

I think, no, not not. I can kind of get the idea.

I'm maybe they had a miscarriage or was she just never pregnant.

So she looked like she was pregnant, so you know, she had the shape of somebody who was, you know, early pregnancy. He proposed, because that's what you did know in sixty sixtion. And it disappeared. It disappeared after they Yeah, so I'm not sure how common this is as a thing, but she obviously has a fear of getting pregnant. She doesn't really want to. I think she maybe even has

Is her referring to or someone referring to that? Is that what makes Liz Taylor's character start talking about possibly Listen.

I still think it's strange it it happened so quickly. Yeah, but I forgive it.

It's good because it feels like a this is a thing to look out for, Like it just feels like a useful little tool as an audience member, Right, Okay, this is going to be a thing, like yes, yes, And.

Then the alcohol is not the devil on the shoulder. It's just like you know, loose lips sink ships and so you know, I don't think it's lazy to because they really commit. It's not like they're drunk for a moment, and they really commit to the drinking in this And that's why I think they do a really good job of because you're constantly asking yourself, why don't they just leave? Yeah, why don't they just leave? You know? The player right, Edward Elby has come up with enough reasons why they

On, because even when they start to feel that, you know, that stage of drunkeness where you start to you've had fun and then it starts to feel bad. You're trying to sort of keep that at the door. That could be a reason why they stay.

Well, you keep drinking, and Nick knows that, well, he's attracted to Martha and knows that she's the daughter of the big boss. So, you know, I think it's a full of plan. Mind you.

I always thought that was sort of a confusing aspect of it, but I've never lived in that particular world. But it's like, hang on, so to get good with the dean of the university, you need to sleep with his daughter. He married daughter, Like, is that.

Just work hard?

Does that hold water? Just work hard? You know, do political things. I'm not saying there are machinations that you don't need to do.

But how's that going to help? Yeah? No, but I like the idea that he's got a flawed plan.

But everyone keeps talking about everyone's talking about that as if it's a thing.

Well at the moment on the swing where they're talking about like taking one in the bush or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he laughs. And this is what you know, great movies and plays do. You're constantly asking questions, why is George allowing basically the seduction of his wife? Is it just yes, she'll do what she does and I can't control it.

And that's a way of feeling controlled by saying I'm cool with it. It's a way of coming across like it's the one way of sort of feeling any power over the situation by going, oh, it's it's almost with his blessing, you know, yes, even though he hates even though he hates it, it's like, yeah, I can't fight this handsome young guy. I can't beat him on any level. I already know career wise that I've kind of not well failed, let's say, whereas he could be going places.

Yeah, and he's already tried intellectually to kind of spar with him, and then he found that Nick can actually bite back and can hold his own I think Nick is a piece of work, though he's complicit in the febit of this.

Oh yeah, I mean to go into someone's house and just look them in the eye and then try and sleep with their wife, like while your.

Wife is drunk in a room. It's pretty grotesque stuff. From there, I think Nick might be a worse blow here.

Oh really, potentially.

I think there's a sportsmanship going on between Martha and George. They are sparring partners.

It feels like they understand each other as much as they antagonize each other.

Absolutely. I think Martha actually even says so later on, Let's have a listen of Martha talking about her and her husband.

You don't believe it, said Joe, you always deal on appearances.

That's sack.

George, who is out somewhere there in the dark, who is good to me in my room? File, who can keep learning the games we play as quickly as I can change them? Who can make me happy?

And I do not wish to be happy, Yes, I do wish to be happy.

George and Martha.

Sad, sad, sir. There is a fondness and the love. And it might be that maybe people get to a certain part of their lives and they miss the old version of their partner or the younger version of their partner. But I think there is some tenderness. There's a volatile nature to their relationship. We might go to another clip, you know, I'm not sure what clip they played if they were playing clips in nineteen sixty six the Oscars.

Do you want to know what's really happened? It snapped finally, not not me, it the whole arrangement, or you can go on forever and everything is manageable. You make all sorts of excuses to yourself, to hell with it, this is life.

Maybe tomorrow he'll be dead, Maybe tomorrow you'll be dead, all sorts of excuses.

Then one day, one night, something happens and snap it breaks, and you just don't give a damn anymore. I've tried with you, baby, I really tried.

Martha, I really tried. You're a monster.

You are.

I'm loud, and I'm.

Vulgar, and I wear the pants in the house because somebody's got to.

But I am not a monster. I'm not.

And this script was sent to Algie Hepburn and she said, this play is way better than I am, or this script is way better than I am. A US congresswoman said in Congress that she had lowered the prestige of American women abroad and tried to revoke her passport. What because she's constantly surrounded in scandal?

She tried to revoke Liz Taylor's passport?

Yes, right, Yes, because she's damaging the reputation of American women. Yeah. She was married many times, often in controversial circumstances of like dating men who were already married and they're marrying them and I didn't you want to get too much into that, because I kind of want to. It's such a brilliant performance and as you can google this tailor and read all the stories, but kind of just one of the focus on the performance. I think it's.

Extraordinary knowing the little I know, which is there were a couple and that they had been married and divorced three times to each other. To me, that only kind of helps, you know what, Yeah, I just go you two really know each other. And I felt the same when I went to the play. It just made me feel really comfortable in suspending my disbelief and you know, yeah, yeah, I wasn't having to suspend my disbelief in a sense.

Yeah, there's a moment I want to talk about earlier on which when he comes out with the gun, and it's the first time I think it's the first time we really kind of see Martha tightening the screws on George and kind of humiliating him when she's telling the

The film is really good at that gun under the table thing, like that thing of the feeling as an audience member that you know things that other that characters don't know. Movie ever, it always sort of fires up the engine of the story for you.

Yeah, in the play it comes out with the little flag that drops down and says boom or something, and in the movie it's an umbrella. It's an umbrella gun, which are always given this umbrella gun. The math didn't know about.

Oh, I know, saving it for in case she broke the rule.

So when we get to the reveal of the kid, even if it was the play or the movie, well you got pretty clear where you're like, oh, it's there was no kid because I had a discussion with a couple of people and they're like, oh, I was a kid. Not realized that. Yeah, that's my impression.

I wasn't sure until the end, but leading into the end, I was going, it's possible there's no kid. Yeah, it felt a lot cleaner in the movie, but maybe that's just because i'd seen it again.

I think so. Sometimes I watch a movie twice for this podcast, So the first time it's a bit of a view, I might write some notes and then the second time let it kind of like wash over me or vice versa. Sometimes I do it in different orders. But but yeah, they wanted to change. This movie is really faithful to the play They wanted to maybe change because I had somebody coming to write and they wanted their kid to be real. But he's suicided in a closet that they then like plastered over and.

No, well, they would just wreck the whole thing exactly.

That'd be a massive red flag as a producer or director going to go, I don't think we've got the right guy writing this script.

If you were the playwright, you'd be furious if that happened, because it's like it changes the whole thing of what it's about.

Yeah, and we've said before there's a massive thing going on in this about the stories we tell ourselves.

Yeah, if there was a kid who was suicided, but they're still pretending to themselves that he's coming over to visit. I guess it's still the same sort of idea of, you know, where we'd like to play this game where we pretend our son is still alive. And I think for a lot of it, I was wondering whether maybe there was something like that, whether he had been the kid who had died in that story in yes, in his novel, because they talk about how his novel inspired

With the son.

Yeah, it's not as strong as just he's completely made up.

Yeah, I like this version. I think it's surprising. My guess was that he wasn't alive, but he was, he was real, Yeah, right, And then maybe was connected somehow to that car story that maybe you know, maybe George was driving a car and it was the kid who was killed in it.

And yeah, this is what I would say if I was in a tutorial at Yuni, Like, was there something about like the kid is like not existing, like the idea of a kid who kills his parents in that story in one of those stories that you're not quite sure whether it's true about George, Is that sort of like what happened to them? Read the kid has killed them?

Do you know what I mean?

Like they're living this waking Yeah, that's what I would say in a Yuni tutorial. Yeah, I was talking about it, like is there some sort of symbolism about that story of the parents being killed?

Yeah? The kid? Yeah? Why do they make up this kid? Is also an interesting question? Yeah, but you can't have kids, Yeah, so it makes sense. And why is it so important that it meant it to anyone? I mean outside of like appearing crazy, Yeah, which which may be a simple enough explanation. But then why when it's revealed, when that

Yeah, Like you wouldn't want it to get around the campus.

Well being set in the world of academia, Like you're right, absolutely right, Like you don't you know the idea of the professor of history of course is a bit nuts. Yeah?

Absolutely. And the thing I got the second time watching it, well you know the movie version, but it's the same in the play is he's actually pretty complicit in the fantasy. He is up for the fantasy. He just doesn't want other people to know about it. Whereas I think when I saw the play, I was thinking, it's that's her thing, and he lets her do it as long as it's in private. It's very much their thing I think, which you could argue is a loving yeah that he's committed

Yeah. Because there's a big theme of these games that get played. Like I said earlier, sometimes they're labeled in the aftermath. But let's have listened to one of these games being set up.

Okay, I know what we do now that we threw with humiliate the host We threw with that one for this round anyway, And we don't want to play hump the hostess yet, not yet.

So I know what we do.

How about a little round of get the guests? How about that? How about a little game of get the guests? Jesus to both drop a child man? No, No, we've only had one game. No, we've got to have another. You can't fly on one game, childs. How are we gonna play get the guests.

Do you be quiet?

I wonder, I wonder.

Ah yeah, yeah.

Well, now Martha, in her indiscreet way, told you all about my first novel true or false, I mean toru or false, than there ever was such a thing. Anyway, she told you about in my first novel, My Memory Book, which I sort of preferred she hadn't. But hell, that's blood under the bridge. But what Martha didn't do, what Martha didn't tell you, what Martha didn't tell us all about was my second novel. No, Marth, you didn't know about that, did you? My second novel true or false?

Tru or false?

No?

Well, it's an allegory, really probably, And it's all about this nice young couple who comes out of the Middle West. It's a Bucolic, you see. And this nice young couple comes out of the Middle West. And he's blonde, and he's about thirty, and he's a scientist, a teacher, a scientist, and his mouse is a wifey little thing who bargoes to brand.

This is my game.

You've had your game, you people, This is my game.

Why are you this story? I love story.

And Malt's father was a holy man and he ran sort of a traveling clip joint, and he took the feetful, that's all, he just took them familiar anyway, Blondie and his frow out of the plain stage game be funny. I thank you, mother, and they settle in the town, just like nouveau cos.

I don't think you better go on, mister?

Do you familiar stories?

They're the best.

Closing your eyes on this. Listening to the audio, it could easily be Anthony Hopkins, couldn't.

It like, yeah, yeah, they both frem Wales.

Is I'm not sure.

I strongly think so because Rob Brydon, who likes to impersonate both of them, is obsessed with both of them.

Right.

He was criticized I read somewhere for his English accent, which I find remarkable, maybe his choice of maybe playing in his English. There's nothing wrong with his English accent at all.

But what criticized for it not because it didn't sound authentic? Is it an English accent or for choosing.

To have one in that choosing because that sounds flawless to me, like nineteen sixty six acting styles aside, that sounds for us. Johnny Richard Burton was born Richard Walter Jenkins in the village of a name I cannot pronounce, which means he grew up in a working class, Welsh speaking household. He was a twelfth of thirteen children of a Welsh coal minor. Wow.

So it's funny because you think of him as so rsc don't you like? You know, Yeah, he sounds a bit about Anthony Hopkins.

Definitely. Yeah. Anthony Hopkins is definitely Welsh, isn't he He was born in Wales. Ye.

It totally works for me that he's English in the movie.

Yeah.

I like it because that's I don't know, it's professorial, like to be English. One last question before we start wrapping up what happens tomorrow morning? So they've had this moment where it's revealed that the kid doesn't exist. Does this clear the decks for them to move on or does it burden their relationship further? I think it clears the decks for something new to happen, whether they this is the start of them deciding to break up or whether they get a dog, you know what I mean.

It's been wrecked. Yeah.

So like thank God at the end of the play, it does feel like there's some sort of change, yeah, you know, and I.

Think there is hope there, sort of hope. I tend to think that they can move through this because I think we've seen the love and maybe this is the thing that they need to work through and maybe this is a version of working through it.

And they needed people there to make it real, you know, witnesses, for them to admit to eat well, for particularly her to admit that it was made up.

Because when Richard Burton is speaking to Latin, it's an exorcism, isn't it. But that's what they're doing, they're exercising this. Yeah, I guess so.

I hadn't thought of it that way. I thought it was like a what's the word requiem? More? Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I like exorcism more.

I mean I tend to think of when he Latin, you know, in those kind of situations, it feels like an exorcism. Again, pretty ballsy got of move. You know. This is pre the Exodus being out there. I'm not sure how many exoris and movies. So yes, okay, here are some fun facts before we wrap it up. I did mention that it was every Oscar was eligible for. It was nominated for all actors nominated for the Oscars.

Her delivery that's really funny, like I didn't know what it was a reference to. It's a certain way that she says it. She's obviously doing a yeah, knows exactly how it was said originally, and it's really funny.

The film is could be on Therus in nineteen forty nine and I should have actually maybe clicked it up. But it's a complete exaggeration of the line. I bet Davis. Actually I spoke about it publicly when it became a thing. She goes, I didn't ever play the line like it's fat and she really doesn't like so it's again it's a versions we tell ourselves.

No one's saying in the play that she over that she overplayed it. All they're saying is it's just a great fun line that said, you know, like how things become a meme. It's just they were just done in this genesse Qua spirit.

Yeah, but it'mor there's certainly a performative element that Martha puts onto it that is almost more English than the line was delivered. It Oh what I dump And so if you listen to the line, it's like it's almost thrown away. It's not as as big. But like I said, I love your meme example, but also the again, it's it's these versions we tell ourselves in Martha's head. That was the way bet Davis delivered that line.

Yeah, yeah, because it really resonated with her.

Yeah. Really sad little fact that we spoke about Sandy Dennis. She suffered a miscarriage on set, which I don't usually like to give those kind of grim backs, but it just her performance the character so good, and then dealing with that material. I can't imagine dealing with that. Mike Nichols was advised to fire somebody on set on day one to get control the stamp himself as first on the director, and he wasn't sure if he was going

That's really sweet.

It's really sweet. It's really sweet. There are so many stories about Liz Taylor that I think it's nice to hear the more positive stuff outside of her extraordinary performance as Martha. This is the fourth of eleven movies that Liz and Richard made with each other. And Jack Lemon said yes to the role of George. He was offered it. He would have been great, He would have been great. I can completely imagine Jack Lemon. I love Jack Lemon, but changed his mind the next day for reasons unaware of.

Oh my apologies, see Catherine Hepburn doing it at all as great as she is. Yeah, I feel that maybe she could. I'm sure she probably I just can't imagine her getting so sloppy, like.

Yeah, she's a lady, yeah, and get strong and yeah, that kind of sense of you know, hot mess kind of Yeah. I think they are almost all seven point five million dollars, Like I said, the most expensive black of white film ever made in the US up until this point. Liz Taylor got one point one million dollars for the role hot Off Cleopatra, and but it got seven hundred and fifty thousand, So you know, Liz, Liz.

So Mike Nichols just getting back to him, Yeah, yep. How is he as his first film directing? How is he getting to direct a film with Liz Taylor and Richard Burton?

Well, he was big in the big in theater, right, Was he a theater director?

Was?

I believe he's a theater director? Right?

So?

Because didn't you have a comedy thing with Elaine May like that and they would make albums that were.

Like, yeah, he was his own thing.

Yeah, but he's still he's done those things, but he hasn't directed a film. It's pretty I think it was as an adaptation that would have helped him, no doubt, do you mean, because it's a proven kind of well.

Because I think you have to have an awareness perhaps oh you can argue maybe maybe you din't, but maybe there's a school of thought that having an awareness of this the play, not just the play specifically, but plays in general, and then how can you adapt that. I can imagine being sold that this Sida Guru can actually is the rock either. Yeah, yeah, there word concerns that he might not be able to you know, but I think is really good. I think the idea of taking it out to different areas.

And maybe it's that thing too, of like if a film director had done it, they might have made it more play like I don't know, like thinking oh, that's what it needs to be and I don't need to think of this like a film, whereas coming from plays, maybe that helped him understand how different it needed to be.

I don't know. He makes Who's Afraid of Virginia woolf in sixty six, next to you makes a graduate gosh, Then a couple years lad he makes Catch twenty two. I've never seen that either of I actually must.

When you have me on in five years, we'll do Catch twenty two. We will make it and put it on market for me Carla Knowledge. We did that with Karen Mason. They had a dolphin.

I've heard of it. I don't know much about it. In the eighties he starts hitting silk Wood, Heartburn, but LOSSI Blues?

Is it?

Ah rated film? Working Girl, postcust Andrew regarding Henry will the Birdcage, Oh my god, he's yeah in the nineties now, but the primary colors, Oh my god, Angels in America obviously. Oh, he's just just incredible and like you know, Charlie Wilson's War, which is an underrated film as well, Closer. Yeah, he's the real deal. There's no doubt about that. And I think we're gonna be doing the graduate soon. Somebody has nominated. I'll let you know once it's confirmed, but it might

It totally delivers, because not everything does. Like you know, you watch a lot of seminal things, and since those things were made, someone sort of got that idea and then did a better version of it. And often the seminal thing is disappointing. But I didn't find this disappointing. Like I think, it feels really good. It feels really kind of now as well, because things like Madmen and Revolutionary Road and all that sort of stuff is in recent memory, so it sort of sits in that kind

I mean, at the time was very progressive and like I said, racy and catholic. Kind of organizations try to have a band. That was a screening they had and they actually deliberately had the person who was obviously a reverend or something who had to decide. They had deliberately seated behind in Jackie Onassis, and once the film was finished, Jackie deliberately said, oh, jack would have loved that. Jack JFKB a renowned Catholic and Irish Catholic. So they yeah,

As well as being controversial with the language and the subject matter, it's also just really kind of dark, isn't it?

For a movie?

It is?

Yeah. I also had the play. The first act was really funny. Yeah.

It feels much funnier as a play, it does, Yeah, because you've got an audience of people laughing their asses off. Yeah, and then you watch it as a movie and you do laugh. But yeah, I kind of, yeah, I found it much funnier when I was.

I completely agree. I completely agree mate. Thank you so much. You're an absolute legend. Love you and thanks thanks for watching Who's Afraid of Virginia? Thanks Pete. Yeah, this felt like one film that, even though it's in the play and the film back to back, I was still processing