Good day, Peter, Helly here, welcome to you. Ain't seen nothing yet the movie Podcast, where I chat to a movie lover about a classic or beloved the movie they haven't quite got around to watching until now. And today's guests broadcaster filmmaker Todd Sampson.
Do you any think you have a chance against us? Mister cowboy?
Open the potbay doors.
Hell, I'll have what she's having.
Happening right now.
Don't see nothing here.
Todd's amson is truly a unique voice and presence on the Australian and that global TV landscape. Born in Ontario, Canada, Todd made his way to Australia buy Our South Africa and became the CEO of advertising giant Leo Burnette Australia. It's this that lands Todd on this weird little show called The Gruin Transfer with that good mate Will Anderson and Russell Howkraft, a show that takes a deep yet entertaining look into the world of advertising. Todd becomes the
breakout star of the show. And before you email me, Will Anderson was already a star before Ruin, So that's what I'm saying. Todd was the breakout star. Okay, they want any fights, and Russell is awesome too. Todd is intelligent, fun, his observation always nuanced. Todd co created earth Hour, which I did not know. I've been majoring for years. I did not know my mate Cochre had Earth Hour, one of the biggest environmental initiatives ever, reaching five and a
half billion people around the world. Todd has climbed Everest's Bloody Well climbed Everest. He's even scored a role an acting role in the hit movie Lion Incredible. In more recent years, Todd has been scoring big as a filmmaker with his doco series where he puts himself in insane situations like there are times I had to say to him, mate, to take care of you, So please, do you make me nervous just to come home safe. He is like the Bear Grills, but with a more kind of sciencey approach.
From readers on My Brain to Todd Samson's Body Hack, they often extremely confronting the watch and his news series Merror Mirror Loved to Hate maybe his most terrifying one yet, because it looks at how screens are impacting our lives, our homes, and our brains. It is must watch it started on Monday. Please watch it. Not just because my friends aren't doing my show, but it's actually important television. I got to know Todd because for a few years he was a regular on the Project, and I love
hanging out with him. I loved every time he was on. Todd someone who he never takes himself too seriously. He's abundantly curious and I'm bloody stoked to be hanging with him today.
Hi there, My name is Todd Sampson. My three favorite movies are Apocalypse Now.
Charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy five hundred.
Out of Africa, Ruiselip Maidens, light Footland and garden State.
You gotta go bury this hamster before the dogs e done my help.
And up until up until last week, I hadn't seen the Shawshank redemption.
Rule Number one, no blasphemy. I'll not have the lord's name taken in vain in my prison. The other rules you'll figure out as you go along. Any questions, when do we eat.
You.
Eat when we say you eat, you shit when we say you shit, and you piss when.
We say you pissed, you got that you make it. Take motherfucker on your feet.
I believe in two things, discipline and the Bible. Here you'll receive both. Put your trust in the Lord. Your ass belongs to me. Welcome to Shawshank.
Welcome to show Shank. In the it's time to get busy living or get busy dying in front think Darabun's adaptation of Stephen King's novel Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption. It's nineteen forty seven and main banker Andy Dufrain has been found guilty of a double murder his wife and the golf pro she was well, let's just say they were playing around in the rough A mild and measured.
Andy gets sent the Shawshank Prison, housing some of the most violent criminals in the state, as well as old Golden Thomson is himself Morgan Freeman, who plays Red, the only guilty man in shaw Shank. From there they form a bond that for many movie lovers, especially for some reason footballers, it is the backbone of one of the
greatest movies in movie history. It's rated number one in IMDb's Greatest Ever list, ahead of Godfather Part two and The Dark Knight a genuine flop upon release, it made seventy million off a twenty five million budget, but then, amazingly it was nominated for seven Academy Awards, Tim Robbins, missing Outland and No. Surprisingly, the movie, however, does not win a single one sing. Redemption is a classic movie about hope, how it could be both dangerous and life saving.
Todd Samson, have you crawled through a tunnel of shit to be with me today?
You haven't listening to listening to explain it. It's an indictment on me that I hadn't seen it until six days ago.
Well, i'd be really well, this is one of the movies that gets requested a lot, and the reason we haven't done it up until now, when it's one hundred episodes in now everyone kind of has seen it. It rarely comes up your first. I think that, and that's why I jumped on, And you know, I think it's a perfect film, and I kind of thought you would like it. We'll get to that soon. But it's it's so revered, it's it's so lovely. It is in the
conversation of the greatest film ever. Now again, we'll get we'll get to your your thoughts on that, but it's much loved and why having you seen it like as it did? It just not.
Excuse. I guess my excuse at the time when I try to think back to, you know, nineteen four.
And then it kind of explodes in ninety five on videos.
So I think I was probably and maybe I still have now sort of swept up in many populist movies and this wasn't so. All I remember reading were the crip reviews when it came out, saying it's not that good, it's boring. And I guess for me, cinema has It's been a huge part of my license since I was a child, but it's escaped for me, and I thought, okay, well, I'm not going to waste that precious time that I use in the cinema for a movie that people are saying it's not good. Wow, what a mistake that.
Was, Morgan Freeman. It believes that one of the reasons it wasn't a hit on release was a nine that people couldn't couldn't get their heads around a name, which I think you know, and you're a perfect person to ask about this with your with your background, that it is really important, isn't it Like when you see and you love the Shaw Shank Redemption, it makes complete and there's a great title after the fact, But when you're when you know nothing about a film and you're looking
at it and kind of going, what what's shaw Shank? What's what does that mean? And Morgan Freeman with how people say I saw this movie Scrimshaw Resolution and they just couldn't get it in their heads. It didn't float. Is that How big a factory is that?
Well that would have been a major part of it for me as well. So you really only have three things when it first starts. You have the name. You have that the actors who are the brands themselves, and then you have the reviews if you glance upon and look at a review. And so for me, I wasn't a massive Jim Robley's fan, so it's not like I was, you know, wanting to see comps he was in. So it failed on all three. From yeah, I was like, okay, well the name, I don't I sort of get another
prison Break film. You know, I've seen him before, you know, And then and the main character, I was like, I mean I loved Morgan Freeman, but I thought he was a sub character in it. I assumed, uh, And and then of course the reviews were like, oh, you know, you might be wasting your time, you might fall asleep in the cinema.
Yeah.
Yeah, And you know what's interesting about that about about the pacing? Right, So, so now watching it now in this kind of crazy tech, you know, low attention span world that we live in, it was interesting challenge to watch this film because it has this sort of languid pacing. It's not there to pump it at you, you know, the when some directors use this every three minute thing. So every three minute there's some kind of change or action to keep you on and on and on and
reversals and reversals. This has a lot of reversals, but it's slow, and it really is. I could see why now has become popular, but I could also see why there would be a generation to people that would struggle to actually get through it when they can only look at stuff on TikTok for thirty seconds.
Yeah, yeah, it's that's why Morgan Freeman's voiceover is so important in this it's it's and lots of people have different opinions on where the voiceover is lazy. I think this is one of the really good examples of it working.
But it set it does set a tone like you really do need to settle in and watch your shape, particularly for the first you know time, and maybe the second or third time, and then you know, it becomes one of those movies if you do love and if you do respond to it, that if it's on TV, you just need to watch it. If if Andy Dufrain's you know plan is about to be you know, announced to the viewers, you need to the scene. No matter
how many times you've seen the film. We're going to get to it very soon because I really want to know all your thoughts on it. But let's talk about your three favorite films. Let's over Apocalypse now. Deal. Joy Singer did this on our podcast. I watched it for that episode without having seen it for a while, and I watched I think we watched the kind of recent the redo on it. I mean, the ambition is there for everybody to see in that film. He's you know,
famously a troubled shoot. Nothing with nothing was easy, but what a glorious looking picture and still it's still just looks like it could have been made last.
Week as inside I was when I was thinking about the three films that I enjoy or films that my favorite that had impacted me in childhood. For that time period, it was between that and Debbie Does Dallas. But I thought, us cutting WI Does Dallas as a promo, are working on it together, and this wouldn't work well. But that had a massive impact on me as a child.
But if you want to put Debbie does Dallas in, nobody has put W Does Dallas to be the first one.
I remember shoving shoving the VHS in the recorder and sitting back and with all my friends in the basement of my friend's house and going, this is going to be great. And then I also remember, like sort of halfway through the film, feeling slightly uncomfortable that I was sitting around with a whole bunch of blogs with baseball caps and beer watching Debbie dost Downs. Anyway, let's move on to.
Now before you do. Before you do, because I had a very weirdly similar experience, not necessarily Debbie Does Dallas,
but I remember somebody in our street. I've got my brother Mark, he's four years older, and it wasn't him, but somebody in the street got a porno, you know, VHS porno, probably from the local milk bar, you know, you know, yes, under the counter, you know, he could supply with one, and and so they brought it to our house because both our parents were working, they wouldn't be home for you know, a few hours, and all of a sudden, like you're supposed to be. I only
found out because I was like, what's going on? And because there's a few my brother had a few mates, I know what's going on here, and he had to tell me obviously, because you know, he had to explain it to me, so so and then all all I remember was like, then it's not word got out, and then like people, people I've never seen before started coming over to watch this pawn. I must have been like maybe fourteen maybe, and I remember we had a table tennis set up and people are lying on the table
tennis table watching in bean bags. It's watching this.
Most influential movies of all time.
Yeah, I've never seen Debbie does Dallas, but it did become certainly the the kind of reference point for pawn and like a big, a big kind of comedic reference point as well, Like if you met somebody called Debbie like your mind or often went, oh, you've been to Dallas, you know, Like.
I mean, there's no Oscars being awarded to Debbie does Dallas.
No, No, sadly, sadly.
It rarely gets reviewed on podcasts rarely.
This could be the first time, this could be the first time. But you want to talk about apocalypse now, so let's go back to that.
Yeah, there was something when I was young about the that I enjoyed about the journey of darkness, Like I'll never forget them going in that dark, like it's it's night time and they're on the ship and they're going And I also really love the inner dialogues, like I love movies that play out the thoughts and and and are written cleverly and smartly, and you know, and you get to kind of go, oh, he's going through and then when he arrives and you know, and Brando is
there and it's just I don't know, it doesn't get better when the helicopter when they're doing the concert and the helicopter company, and I mean, it's it's a phenomenal film. And and uh, if you're a film lover and you haven't seen that, well you're like me not having seen
I recommend checking out Apocalypse Now. But as you said, stands at testa time, like you could run that film now in a cinema and you would get huge I mean, there are obviously diehards, but if you hadn't seen it before, like it would be a film that you'd go, Wow, that's brilliantly made, it's brilliantly paced. It's the music is sensational, the characters are well developed.
Yeah, And it's what's going about rewatching Apocalypse Now is there are so many things that are happening in the background or some of those shots, so something like that, there's helicopter crashes and this shit going on in these villages, you know, in Vietnam, and you're like, what is it like? And it's and with the first time you watch it,
you might be focusing on the foreground. But if you go back and watch it and you're concentrate a little bit on the on the background, like he's using the entire frame every single time, that's.
Right, And you know, then of course you can watch out the darkness, you can watch the making of you can see when you see that, then you realize that the making is its own movie. You know, it's it's like a phenomenal the things that happened. And yeah, so that that that will go down as one of my favorite films of all time.
And also astonishing Todd that he's doing this with that not only does he not have playback in the moment, they're shooting on film obviously in the seventies, so he doesn't have playback, but he's not even seen the rushes until he gets back to America, like and so to have that and to deliver such a beautiful looking film with the performances as great as they are is an astonishing feat.
And no real reliance on visual effects. Now everything is done. I mean they're they're shooting up the land, they're blowing up this there. He only got one shot at that. Then nothing's gone like and then you got to rebuild and do it all again. It's yeah, it's and and you know, he is such the director is such a character.
I mean he's like, you know, the stories of what happened on the set and Brando getting pissed off and walking off and not one again the film, Dennis hof I mean, you just couldn't have put a more eclectic cast together, like basically putting them on an island and saying good luck making this film, and they're all at each other and.
Well, what was already going to be a very difficult film to make and the tricky film to make, and with the challenges that they had. Yeah, the fact that there was so much misbehavior and drug use and health crisis on that set was amazing. Usually that film ends up being like The Island of Doctor Monroe or something like that. The fact that it's a film that comes up constantly in people's top three films is incredible. It's
incredible Out of Africa. I don't like it when this happens, but I haven't seen it, and you have seen it. I've not seen Out of Africa, And well, I don't remember seeing it. I may have walked through the rumpus room while mum was watching it one night. I kind of have like the aesthetic, you know, and I can kind of see it in a way, but I don't remember watching it. No.
Yeah, So I grew up in a small town in Sydney, Cape Brighton Island on the east coast of Canada, and I spent my whole time wanting to be somewhere else. You know, wanting to explore the world. My parents never went to school, so their horizons were very, very narrow short, you know. And when this movie came out, so park the obvious issues with colonialism. You know that this movie talks about and demonstrates in many ways. I had not really thought about Africa as a place for me to
visit and want to go to. But when I watched that film, there is nothing I wanted more than to go to Africa. And I ended up living there for six years and traveling throughout and climbing throughout, and I've now brought my kids back three times. It is such a major, major, major part of my life, and I can pinpoint the seed to that film. So Africa itself is a character in that film is extraordinary. The music, which I now play myself and piano and things. I
love the soundtrack of that. And maybe it's my own issues with intimacy, but I'm a sucker for love stories. I always had my wife's like, she refuses to go cinema to a love story. She's dystopian love stories, right, And Robert Redford and Meryl Street. Yeah, it doesn't get better than that.
Yeah, that is that's amazing. It's amazing that. And we've had lots of people who have come on the show and spoken about why their favorite films. And sometimes it is just because it's it's awesome, you know, but there has been a handful of times where people have been
able to pinpoint the influence a movie has had. So for you to nominate Out of Africa as a life changing thing in a way where it opened the door to a part of the world that you'd never considered going to and you ended up living there for half a decade.
Yeah, then I went to Karen Blixen's house. I ended up going to her house, the person who wrote it, you know, the book, and because it is it's an autobiography really, and I went to her house. Yeah, it was a It was a moment in my life where I watched that movie and it bumped me into a different direction. Now you could argue for me the same thing when Greece came out. I didn't put it because I'm embarrassed to put it down on the list, but on this on the exact same note, Greece, on some
kind of subconscious level, dramatically changed my life. I remember I watched that and knew very little. I wasn't the Hogan, you know in Canada. I wasn't like Paul Hogan watching Crocodilder. I saw Greece, and I saw living in John and I remember thinking Australia like it was the first time the flag was placed in my head. And you know, all the cliches and stereotypes that came with her character, but it was the first time that the flag was
placed in my head. That helium might be an interesting place for me to visit on my journey as a kid who's hiding away in the cinema, you know, trying to escape my volatile home life in the dark room, trying to be alone with other people. I watched That seven times. That and Empire Striped Back. I watched Greece seven times. My grandma used to clean the floors. And it was seventy five cents to get into the cinema,
and my grandma used to clean the floors. So whenever she worked the weekend she worked, she would wedge the bottom door of the exit and I would sneak around, go in through the wedge door and just sit basically in the front row and just crouch and I would watch whatever it would come up. And I remember I was targeting Greece like an empire strikes back, but I was targeting Greece. I was like, Okay, I want to see this, Grandma, can you wedge it for these showings? And she would try her best.
Oh, I love that story. Can you wedge it? Grandma? I mean that's a chatter in your memo. Ass some way that that is. That is amazing. Where I thought you were going with Greece was I mean Greece kind of and I love Greece. Greece would be in my top ten as far as like and it's maybe one of the films I've seen, you know that Star Wars and the Sound of Music, as far as maybe the films I've seen the most. Funnily enough, I don't put three those three films in my top three, but they're
they're definitely my top ten. And I thought where you were going with Greece was it opened this idea of American high schools, because that's what it did for me. I was like, American high schools seem kind of fun, even though you know, you actually think about there's a whole lot of shit going on that's not fun in that film, and most American high schools, but there's this we we did have this in Australia. I'm not sure how different Canadian schools were, but the way the cafeterias worked.
Became a little bit obsessed with the way American high schools function, and the and the clicks and the and the cafeterias and the you know, the cheerleaders and you know that, the the football teams and I don't know, it was something even like the yeah, the Lethermon jackets and stuff. It was there's something about the red caps that they alway seemed to drink out of at parties. You know, there's something that that seemed really cool, even though as an adult you kind of a lot of
those things aren't cool. There's I think, you know, clicks aren't cool. You know, like eating ship food off a tray is not cool. But yeah, it was one of those things. And I think I think Greece was probably the first one I saw which I thought American high schools yeah.
Yeah, Well that is the difference, right, so that in Australia you would look to that and look to that with interest. Canada you look to that with disdain. Not because it's bad, but just because it's American. Yeah. So no, I gravitated towards Oliving John and that and that I'd never seen crocodile dundee. So I had no idea what everyone else was talking about in Canada because that's the only thing they knew of when it came to Australia, and that nothing else. Zero and I lived in Sydney,
Nova Scotia, Canada. The Arc of life, right, and I lived twenty twenty six years in Sydney, Australia, But all on my flag was her.
Yeah, did you obviously sadly passed away this year? Did you ever meet her?
No?
It would have been a pretty amazing thing to.
Yeah, too shy, you know, you know who I am, right too, in like I would never go out of my way to track her down. Yeah, but I followed her, you know what I mean, Like I kind of tracked what she did. And you know, not that she would care that she had an influence in my life, but definitely bumped me, you know, she definitely bumped me on a track, just like Meryl Street bumped me on the track for Africa. She bought me on that track for Australia.
Yeah, that's amazing. I got to meete her a few times and she was so lovely, as lovely as you would possibly want. And if you had told her that story, she would have would have touched her. I'm absolutely sure of it. Gardenstite is a wonderful film, an indie film Zach Braff and Natalie Portman.
Yeah, I did not so I okay. So the plot is a very is a parallel plot to my life. You know, boy with not much, you know, goes off to the world and then ends up having to come home to In my case, it was kind of reversed because my mother was an addict, so I was. My father was depressed, so I was kind of living. I was coming home to that world. And I'll never forget seen and this is the reason. And it's a total
emotional thing. It's nothing to do with what it was actually about, because I can't quite remember the details of it. When he's standing on the van in the hole and he screams and he just screams and screams and screams and is crying. I was. Every time I see that, I cry, And so that puts it in my top three and I know it's a recent film, it's an indie film, but and Zach Braf is not everyone's cup of tea. But for some reason this it's beautifully shocked
as well. And for some reason this that it moved me.
So is that is that? Is that like that moment is at the moment that moment puts it in your top three? Or like is it just ously enjoyed the entire film? And I forgot God, I remember seeing when it came out and I really enjoyed it, and I remember buying on DVD, but I think I've only watched it maybe once since then, and and I would even kind of, you know, forget exactly what it was about. Like you described it briefly about you know, him having to come back and things having worked out. I remember
Nalie Portman wearing headphones in a waiting room. I remember that scene you're talking about, and I remember really enjoying it, and then I'm talking about it. I really would like to go back and watch it soon. But is it one of those things where that scene that you speaker with the yelling on the van elevates it to a point where it's like, yeah, this is this is my top three.
Yeah, I think for me, I'm drawn to three kind of types of movies. One is escapist as best I can, like Star Wars is the ultimate example for me. Yeah, just leaving the Planet. I'm drawn to As I mentioned, love stories. I think it's to deal with my own issues with intimacy. So I like to watch other people play it out and wish I was then. So I've drawn to that that as well. But I'm also drawn to stories that in some way parallel my own life
and experience. And that was one of the first ones that I watched that was a kind of more contemporary film that I went, it's something. I went, that's me. That sounds incredibly narcissistic, but I watched it and went, that's kind of my life in a way, not exactly kind of, but it was. And so I related to that. And then when we hit that moment came screaming on the top in the rain and crying and she's holding him.
I don't know, it just it just moved me. And so when you said what are your top three films, I didn't overly think it. I just went, what are the films that have really moved me? And for some reason that one did.
And that's what you're trying to do as a writer and the director then and the actors are trying to create something where the audience can see themselves somewhere in that film. And I think that's that's a very powerful thing. And that's what I think everyone's trying to achieve when they said that to make a film. So I love I love all those three films. About we discussing all those three films with you? Excellent choices. Absolutely, let's get into it. This is a massive film. This is right
up there. It is a much loved film. Like I said, number one on IMDb's all time. It was the most highest rented video of nineteen ninety five, which which kind of helped after The Flopper kind of more people saw it on video and they and now streaming, I guess, and they sort of cinema opponents and initial release, it is the most replayed film on American TV still to this day. Todd Samson, did you enjoy Frank Darabout's show Shack Redemption, based in a book by Stephen King?
It was wonderful and mesmerizing, Yes, And it was it the fact that it was so good made me feel so self conscious that I hadn't seen it, and as someone who makes films right now for a living, I tend to I struggled to stop looking at the how you know, how things are done in the pacing and the music and the shots and where they're wide or they're clothes, where they you know. But with this film
you you get all of that. But the genius of the director, in my mind, is that he sets this pacing in a kind of closed space, so he lets the characters lure you into their lives. He does a few reversals, so you don't quite know where you're going, but it feels like you're in a box with them,
and I love that intimacy. And you think it's two and a half hours or whatever it was, so when the time's over, you're like, wow, I just did twenty years in two and a half hours, because it's a twenty year span of their lives, you know, it's and everything from the the fact that the main character, Tim Robins is not the main character, the way he did
that by using Morgan Freeman to narrate. The reason we associate and like Tim or Andy's because of Morgan and his interpretation of that world, which I thought, you got two outstanding actors, but the way they used more Morgan Freeman, I thought, and and again the sparsness of it. So they mute all the colors, it's all gray, and then
music wise they kind of strip. They use some great musical moments, but the majority of the music is that sort of soothing, melodic voice of Morgan Freeman, which holds you for two hours easily. Yeah, sensational film.
Yeah, and you're right about feeling like you're in there, and the claustrophobia of it and the colors, the grayness of shaw Shank because every times have you noticed this is probably something you know they one notice in their second or third viewing. But when you whenever you see out outside of shaw Shanks, sometimes you're shooting from chaw Shank. But when a good example is when Andy's being held over the ledge when they're before they start drinking beers
on it. And we'll get through that scene soon. But it's always green grass on the other side. Yes, it's always great. The grass is always greener, and it's just such a beautiful little and there's lots of those little touches or all the way through well, it's talk about like when we when we first meet Andy obviously, and I think also it's it's it's clever that they're going to get into it in a pretty kind of juicy kind of way. There's this guy who's you know, uhasically
basically being charged with double murder. He's you know that his wife's having sex with the golf pro. It's you know, it grabs your attention, even though it's not necessarily you know, cut like really fast, and it's not like over the top, and it's it's you are drawn in. You are drawn in. You can go, Okay, this is is this our protagonist? Is this somebody who's do you think Andy was was guilty?
You think possibly is? You know, because in a way, when I mean when I first watched it, in the first few times I watched it, I was always like, oh, wow, maybe he is guilty, Like and then I the more I watched it, and in the odder I get I kind of see the reasons why he wouldn't be guilty, not just from a story point of view, but also there's things like you know, like yes that they say they're was fingerprints on the on the on the the bottle of bourbon that was left behind, and then and
the bullet casings. But there was no book. There's no fingerprints on the actual crime like that were in the you know, in the cabin where they were killed. There were no fingerprints on door handles or anything like that. Yeah, that'surely that would have come out. There's no footprints leading from the car to the you know, to the cabin. There's things like that. You're going to go, well, come on, Lauries, do your jobs.
Yes, I mean it's deceptive, isn't it. So the judge sets them up. So the judge so again unfortunately think thinking about the what As someone who makes films, I knew there would be an arc for him, But what I thought was deceptive was redemption. So you immediately think, Okay, he did it, and he's going to reneem himself in the film. But it's completely not what's about to happen.
And I kind of had a hint to that obviously when he just went the Like the first lines that come onto the film are the judge, you know, condemning it and saying, you seem like a cold hearted, you know, kill it. Basically, that's what the judge says, to him, and what the restraint of Tim Robbins in the film is incredible, and what you don't know at that moment, just that sort of introverted, thoughtful, shy, restrained character would
be the tone of the whole film. You don't know that then, and then you realize that he himself is a kind of in his own way, a kind of metaphor for the filmmakers the whole film, you know, because it all existed like that in the gray world, in a subtle world, and you know, every once in a while there'll be some sharp moments like the sisters and rape or abuse, but the majority of the time you're sort of just following this character who is not really
coming out. He's staying in and so you normally think in an arc he's going to come out and be something else. He doesn't really, He still stays within his comfines. Yeah, so I had a feeling he was going to be innocent because I thought, Okay, there's going to be an arc. They started so hard that clearly you know that can't be it.
Yeah, you know, you still there is still an element of, well, this is the little guy who was planning on killing his wife. You know what I mean, So it's still pretty murky. Like you know, we spoke a lot about seventies films and how they're more comfortable in making their protagonists a bit grayer, you know, and playing in those
gray areas of their own moral codes. With films these days, you tend to have even though the rise of the anti hero, you know, has certainly been refreshing, but they tend to keep the protagonists in pretty clear spaces, even if they if they make him murky early on, they always make sure it's it's clear that that was we were mistaken earlier, where where the fact is Andy was in a car loading a gun, preparing to kill his wife and her lover, and that is irrefutable.
Yes, so and then and that that seat of doubt has placed early, you know, and that's how it all. And so you are thinking, and when he shows up at the prison and he's stunk hold, you start to think stone Kong killer. You know, you don't think that there's anything positive in his nature. You think that, okay, wait, now you feel for him when he comes through. But I mean, the whole thing with they're taking bets on who's going to crack first is just incredible.
Like it's as soon as I saw a character called feed Ass or something, I thought it's gonna be hum. He's gonna of course, the fat guy's going to break first. What always happens.
Yeah, his arrival as a hero. I think. I just love the switcher room, Like I love that he is the protagonist. But Red, you could argue, is this big or bigger a character? In fact? In fact, Andy's character is told through him, you know, so it's his interpretation of it. I do think, you know, Morgan Freeman got nominated for Best Sporting Actor and Tim Brumms didn't, And I do think there's a bit of a crime in that because it was the culmination of the two of
them that made that film. But I sort of get, I sort of get how Morgan Freeman would get disproportionate amount of accolades and recognition for that film because of the way the director twisted the storytelling you and.
What did you? Yeah, let's away the friendship because this is what I think. It's. White people love this film, you know, And I was kind of thinking about going something we talk a lot about is you know, comedy and drama, and is it a comedy or is the drum. I'm not saying that anybody says Shaw Shanks a comedy at all, but in fact it's it doesn't have many laughs in it at all. But what it does to have, I think is an ability to make you smile. Well, I think I find myself I smile a lot when
I'm watching Shawshank. I'm not sure if I have a laugh, but I smile a lot. And that's we don't really talk about that. You know. It's either make them laugh or make them cry, you know. And I think that a film that is content in making you smile is it's a very powerful thing.
Yeah. I mean there's a want in friendship in general that we all want, you know, and the fact that that developed over hardship. And but there's a weird distance that Morgan had from him because of the way he was narrating it. At times I felt that he wasn't being kind of a true friend to him, for example with the sisters, and you know, Morgan doesn't offer any
protection at all. And Morgan Freeman or Red is the fixer of the prison, so he can't can and make things happen and can do things with cigarettes for people.
He can do, but he doesn't do this. It is almost as though he lets the you know, the inevitable rape or you know, abuse, He narrates it and then it kind of happens, so that there is an interesting dynamic from the director's point of view where his best friend is the narrator of the film, which creates a little bit of a distance, where in most films that's not the case. Most buddy films, there together completely, one's
not commenting necessarily on the other. They're in that journey together. Yeah, this had that weird distance that that I liked.
I enjoyed the one thing I say about the voice over, which I hadn't I hadn't really clocked. And this is the wonderful thing about doing this podcast is you watch a film knowing that you're going to talk about it. So I tend to watch it a little differently as and I've seen this movie many many times, I'm not completely sure the voiceover, the way he talks, and the almost the poetry, the way he talks matches up completely with the character that we've met at Shawshanky. He almost
is awesome. Wells you know or when Oscar wild yes, you know, which you don't really hear red talk like that is more plain speaking than that, And it's never bothered me. It doesn't even bother me now. But I did notice it this time around.
Yes, because as you know, someone who makes films, you know, there's the narration of the film that would have been written, and then there's the character lines of the film. Ye, and he smashed both into one and you can clearly see them as they're separating. But with that said, Morgan Freeman did play convincingly a kind of father figure role for everyone. Like if you notice the framing, he was
almost inevitably framed in the middle. He almost inevitably framed with people around him, I mean part of the framing. As you know, the major issue that that film had was Tim Robins height. Yes, fine, you know, it's like it's the reverse of Tom Cruise movies, you know, where they're recruiting small people from around the world. They couldn't get tall people to matter.
But I was gonna make that exact point is why you'd never seen Tim Robins and Tom Cruise act in the same movie, Like it will never happen. And if you go back and watch it, and I encourage you check it out, Tim Robbins is almost always either crouching down or leaning over, you know, coming out from behind Morgan Freeman when they're watching Rita Hayworth, you know, and it's it's it's very cleverly done because he is he is.
When they line up with when they all line up with the scene that we played before, that's one time where you can see how tall Tim robbers he's compared to the other prisoners.
So so on that point that you make about the disconnects between the sort of sophistication of poetic nature or the writing of the narration of the film versus the actual character. Where I think Morgan Freeman gets away with it is the melodic, soothing tone of his voice. He could say anything and it will have that sort of
poetic sound. And he does speak like that in his character as well, you know, not just a narration like it's just not as sophisticated, but it's the same feel, that sort of that sort of moving voice that he has. You know that it's I mean, it's an exceptional tool.
Oh, it is a tool. So Frank dearbon he he this is one of his first films. I think I think he made a horror film called Buried Alive. He done some work on I Think the Fly Too and some other and he was keen to get out of horror films. He made a short film called The Woman in the Room, which is based on Stephen king short story, and so that's how he gets in it with Stephen King. So he was keen to get away from horror. And and the character of Red in the book is he's white.
He's an Irish, old, Irish white guy like Clint Eastward is up for this role Paul Newman Redford. And that's why there's that great, uh, great line in the movie why do they call you Red? And he goes, because I'm Irish, And it's it's it's played as a joke. It's it's lovely because it works even if you don't know that something. Well I only knew that stuff that yesterday, but it's it is brilliant. But Frank daryline he would watch.
He was he was nervous about it. So he would watch Goodfellas every Sunday just to kind of not only from it an aesthetic point of view, but more so with the voiceover, because that is also one of the great voiceover films of all time good Fellas, and so he would watch that just to make sure that he was doing the right things and on the right track. And you can argue that those two films, you know, maybe even Apocalypse now that you mentioned it earlier, three of the great narrated films.
You just raise something now that I never thought. I did not think about, but now sort of My fourth reason for having never seen this film is my mom used to watch horrific horror movies like every night as her form of escapers, you know. And so I would be in my bedroom and I will be listening to Chainsaw Massacre and I'm into the horror and UNI any
any butcher chop slice. So I have a real version of horror movies I don't get the idea of because from the brains, respect active, what you see, your brain experiences. So if you're seeing death, violence, and you know, on horror, your brain is in its sympathetic response. It's responding to it. That's why people love it. Right you're you are really feeling it. So I've had a block on horror, and
I now that you say that. When I think back, Stephen King probably was like a red flag to me, Like, as soon as I read it was a Stephen King film, it comes with all the you know, all the negativity and all that stuff, the horror, I just blocked it and said, I'm not watching that.
That's so interesting. Because Castle Rock, the distributor, they they made sure Stephen King was not on the poster that they did. They made no effort to kind of tie it to Stephen King. Obviously when it comes out, you know, reviews and and and you know articles mentioned that because it's not their job to hide that fact. But yeah, I think at the time the actors were almost told don't don't tie to Stephen King.
Uh.
They didn't have Stephen King to do any publicity for it. Like I said, not on the poster. Usually, you know, somebody who's huge Stephen King would have based on a novel by Stephen King. None of that, none of that. And it was it was because they did not want for that exact reason for people to think that this is a horror film. Yeah.
Yeah, and when you sha shank Redemption could have like shanks cutting people open and slicing and dicing people, it could be a Stephen King film. Anyway, that was my mistake for not watching it, damn you, Stephen King.
Well, now we have this glorious moment and this conversation. Now to thank seven King four. The what's also great about Red and Andy. They're very it's very clever, and it's very subtle. But they are quite opposite men, you know, not not necessarily in every way, but they are you know. One, you know, it's ready seen, you know, admits that he's the only the only guilty man in shaw Shank because
everyone's apparently innocent. And then we find out that Andy actually is probably the only innocent man in shaw Shank, you know. And and the big, the biggest thing is that they the Hope thing, which is what this movie is about one.
And which is what I loved about it.
Yes, there's something inside that they can't get to it, they can't touch.
It's yours.
I'm talking about.
Hope.
Hope.
I'm gonna tell you some of my friend. Hope is a dangerous thing. Hope and drab a man in the scene. It's got no use.
On the other side, I'm better get used to that.
Idea, like Approx did.
So beyond them making the technical aspect of the film, which I love watching, you know, the pacing and the music and the grade and the you know, the characters, the theme of hope, and the fact that you have a buddy film where people are coming out of two different viewpoints. You know, on the one side, you've got Morgan Freeman who sees hope is something to be scared of, that that hope can, as he says, drive you insane when you're in prison. You know that it's a bad thing.
And then you got Andy or Tim Robbins coming in saying hope is everything you know and without it, you're gone. And then possibly my favorite part of the film had nothing to do with any of those characters, was it Brooks. Yeah, James Wmyer like like, because he then encapsulates both ends of the hope spectrum because on the one hand, he gets released and so he has all of it in front of him, and on the other hand, he has none of it.
And it's it's so important because this movie is also about what institutionalizing men will do. When you put men in the cage and you strip them of hope. What happens and Brooks serves the great wait, you think for the movie because it's a it's a it's an example that we say, what happens when somebody loses hope and has no hope. Let's have it to listen at them talking about Brooks being institutionalized.
But I'm telling you, these walls are funny, rath to hate them.
And you get used to.
Them, enough time passes, you get so you'll depend on as institutionalized shit you can never get like that.
Yeah, So that when they've been here as long as book says, God damn.
Right, they're sending you here for life. That's exactly what they take part of counts anyway.
So that's the same like this is when they worried
about Andy, but it's in the shadow of Brooks. So that's that's why it's important that that happens, because they do a really good job and we've got to touch on it the flour of like you know, the you know, they're not having enough doubt that maybe maybe Andy is guilty and and and then maybe he will later on, maybe he will not make it through, maybe he will take his own life, you know, And they do a really good job of going even though there's a part
of our brain that probably knows it doesn't but it's probably not going to happen because this is a movie and they're really going to have Andy kill himself. But they do a good job of going to like taking you to the edge of thinking yeah, maybe maybe yeah.
But what jumped out at me in that scene, and it was the same thing that jumped out at me when Morgan Freeman or Read was released, was the other sub theme that's going on in this is fear and the line both lines jumped out at me hugely in Brooks a scene, Brooks says I'm just tired of being afraid, and then exact same thing happens to Morgan Freeman. He says,
I'm just tired. I'm sick of being afraid, and the whole notion that they're afraid on the outside but not on the inside, where for most people, including me, have this sort of deep innate fear of prison. You know, all this sort of containment and this, all the negative things you've seen, everything that would been conditioned to believe, but their greatest fear was just existing on the outside.
I mean, that just blew my mind. I was like, as soon as I heard them both say the same line, I thought, Wow, there's another sub theme about because we get it the obvious fear with the Sisters and the raids and you know, and bad things are going to happen, But that level of fear, this sort of existential fear of existence in the real world once your humanity has
been stripped from you, is a really big concept. You know that you're just going whoa and and and then you know, and then of course the suicide, and then and then the misdirection of Morgan Freeman's potential suicide as well.
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's so and watching it again and I haven't so many times, but knowing that I was going to talk about it, and there's things that you just you know, and this is how you're supposed to watch films. You're supposed to in a way just let things wash over you and that they'll they'll work away in a way that you don't maybe
would never have to articulate. But the way they play with hope and that you know, I can see now why and even with the sisters, you know why that's important because yeah, that's like a visceral kind of fear that they have. But then there's all this other underlying fear that has to play out more slowly, you know, and and it's it's it's so beautiful and they have to you know, they have to break Andy, you know,
both physically and mentally. And it's not just for the story, but it's also for the theme, you know, the impact of being institutionalized, and that any an he needs to keep hopeless, you know, because what does It's the one thing Andy has that Brooks never had. And then so if we consider that Andy has hope and Brooks lost hope, it puts Red right in the middle of that. Well,
isn't it the fork in the road. He's either gonna you don't give up on hope and we know how that ends with Brooks, or he's going to choose choose hope and we don't know what was.
Yeah, but you think he leans more towards Brooks, which was the reason that they introduced Brooks, right, because you're going, okay, well, he's also institutionalized. In that conversation where they're sitting there, Red and Andy speaking, and that's when they have the whole conversation, that's when you really realize that these people are on the opposite sides of that fence. But what the sort of mind blowing thing for me with that was that Brooks was happy on the inside.
Yeah.
Like, so his loss of hope happened on the outside.
Yeah yeah, yeah, like because.
His whole character was positive. He had a friend, he had the birds, he was like smiling, he was delivering books, he had purpose, he had he was happy.
Yeah.
No, you could say, oh, you know, his life was stripped away from him, but you can also say that he was given a life in there that he was happy with. It was his release where he lost hope.
Yeah.
And of course you are now foreshadowing to what happens to Andy, you know when when in his release?
Yeah, did you think, oh, we'll come back to that. Actually, I spoke about they every film you need to take you know, your your hero, even though he said, I think I think you're right in the in the this is really red story in a way, but they do need to take Andy. They need to try to break him, you know, mentally, emotionally that you need to put your character at rock bottom. And and and they did this
in such a fucking great clever way. And I want to walk through a few sick and says of how this happens when we when Tommy arrives at Shortshank and is a young hot shot, and he teaches him how to read, and then it.
Was originally going to be Brad Pitt by the way, Yes, yes, which is remarkable.
Yeah, I mean it's an amazing casting. Will come back to that. This is Tommy joining some dots here, and then we go into the confession made by a former inmate one time bus and tables at a country club.
So he says, I got me this job one time bus and tables at a country club so I could case all of these big rich pricks that come in.
So I pick up this game.
Going one night in do his place.
He wakes up.
Gives me shipped.
So I killed it.
Him in this tasty pitch he was with.
It's the best part.
She's fucking this pricksy golf property there.
It's some other.
Guys, some hotshot banker, and he's the one they'd been.
Yeah, it's it's I'll tell you what. I forget the actor's name, but he makes the most of that for it is like you completely believe that he is telling the truth in that moment. So so this happens. It gives Andy hope, It gives us all hope, Ah, this is this is going to this is what he needed. He's the only as a man who's jaw shank. And then so they take it to the warden, who we have haven't spoken about him. We'll speak more about him.
Warden Norton played by Bob Gunton. Both him and Red Guard to him and with the good news.
It's obvious this fellow Williams is impressed with you. He hears your tailor woe and quite naturally wants to cheer you up. He's young, not terribly bright, not surprising. He wouldn't know what a state he puts you in.
Sir.
He's telling the truth.
But let's say for the moment this blatch does exist. You think he just fall to his knees and cried, Yes, I did it.
I confess.
Oh, by the way, had a life term to my sentence.
You know that wouldn't matter.
With Tommy's testimony, I can get a new trial.
And that's assuming latches.
Even still, there chances are excellent he'd be released by now.
Well, they'd have his last known address, names of relatives.
Is it a chance, isn't it?
Can't you be some tooth? What did you call me a tooth?
Is it deliberate?
Son?
You'll forget yourself.
The country club will have his old time cards records W two's with his name of Rye.
If you want to indulge this fantasy, that's your business, don't make it mine.
This meeting is over, sir.
If I were to ever get out, I would never mention what goes on in here. I'd be just as indictable as you for wondering that money.
Don't you ever mention money to me again?
You sorry, son of a bitch.
Not in this office, not anywhere. Get in here now.
Let's just try to set your mind at his that's all.
Sir, solitary a month?
Yes, what's the matter with you?
Get him out of here?
Somebody says to get out, but you see that's.
Understand get.
Yeah.
I mean it's it's so brilliant, the rollercoaster you're going on as an audience man. But when you think when Tommy comes and says, oh no, he's he's innocent, and you believe said we believe that he's in that that that that prison night, and then for this to happen, which once it happens, you're gonna go off course, Yeah, this ward needs him. It's a hell of a rollercoaster.
Yeah. And there's only two stories, I think, two stories that are complete stories within the main story. One is Brookes, you know, and you need him because he shows what happens when you really lose hope and it all said and done, So you need that to have that juxtaposition between which choice are those two main characters going to make.
And then Tommy and Tommy's role as the beginning, middle of the end, and Tommy's role is to introduce the innocence of it, but also to just amplify the the evil of the warden and the evil of the whole system, you know. And and Tommy does that in I mean, Tommy just enters kind of out of nowhere, doesn't He just comes in, His whole story is played out, and he's dead.
Yeah. Absolutely, And and it really is evil. I mean, we got to know, we know they're bad, but I think it's it's what happens now that we'll have listen to that that that puts it into the evil, pure evil category. So this is and he's in the hall Warden. Norton calls for a meeting with Tommy, and again, what a rollercoaster. We think, okay, maybe the ward is going to help out, and let's have listen what happens.
I'll tell you something. This thing really came along and knock my wind out. It's got me up nights. That's the truth, the right thing to do. Sometimes it's hard to know what that is.
Do you understand? I need your help, son. If I'm going to move on this, there can't be the least little shredded out. I have to know of what you told to Fred. I mean, what's the truth? Yes, sir, absolutely? Would you be willing to swear before a judge and jury having placed your hand on the good Book and taken an oath before Almighty got himself? Just give me that chance. That's what I thought.
I mean, I've seen the film many times. How did you feel watching it? Yeah, in the last six six days when you first with that happened.
Ah, by that stage, I already hated this guy. They'd already done their job. Yeah, you know, establishing him, the hypocrisy of him up front talking about dolbino blasphemy and you know, the Bible and his belief system, and then to just unpick that throughout where he's swearing and money laundering and assaulting and all. So at that stage I was really hating that. And and it was one of those, you know, good storytelling things where his death was inevitable
but unexpected. You kind of know this is not going to play out, but how are they going to get rid of them? It was dark. I mean, it was so the director I think when public saying that this was not meant to be some kind of subtle exposition of prison systems, but on many levels it was the cruelty and the freedom that they have and the lawlessness that exists ironically within a prison system. Yeah, I thought it was horrible.
And what it does it challenges even the audience to keep hope because it basically it drains when Andy's got the most hope that he's ever had since being short of getting out, and it challenges the audience now to keep can you keep you? He's our hope going to die with with with Tommy because because this was this was and he's taken out and and and and we were on board with that, and now it's been snuffed out.
And so not only does it tests and he's resolve and and and and hope I think it also tests the audiences, which is I think is is really really clever, but I mean, I think we are discussed.
I also loved the symbolism of of the kind of like like the Bible and rock camera, and like like the fact that that it was hidden in the Bible, of which the warden was all four but yet all against it. It's just so brilliant. And now they swing back at the end.
Did you notice what page? What chapter in the Bible?
The page was yeah. Pause. I paused because I was watching it. I watched her twice, right the first time I watched on television and because I just want to see that's what. And the second time I watched it by computer. And when I got there, I paused because I was like, First of all, I just paused because filmically, I was wondering, is it the rough shape of the thing, you know, I was just wondering if they took the
time to do it properly, which they did. But while I was looking at it, I was like, oh, fuck, it's on excident, Okay, all right.
And we did an episode recently with Glenn Robbins with one flew over the Cookie's Nest and we spoke about Nurse Ratchett a bit who's sadly. Weirdly, the week after that episode came out, Louise Fletcher sadly passed away. And
I think such a great performance in that movie. And you could argue about the kind of how evil was she was She just a woman trying to do her job at like a tough job, you know, And I think she's whether she's evil, but I think she abuses her position in that in that movie where there is no doubt about the Ward and and and Hadley they are they are evil. There's even references the book burning. It's so clever that and he's trying to introduce art
in color to Shaw Shank through the beautiful record playing scene. Yeah, that scene at the moment you know they're knocking on the door and you know he's gonna get He knows he's going to get beaten. Certainly if he doesn't open the door, he's going to get beaten. And he leans in. You think he's going to turn it off, but he turns it up.
Is and what a brilliant line from Morgan Freeman or from Red when he says, for a moment, we were all free. You know, yeah, Yeah, that's one of my favorite moments in the film.
Yeah. And the fact that he is introducing the opening the library and he's getting books in. I mean, you can look at Shaw Shank as a you know, a riff on on arts funding, you know, in a way. I mean you've got the conservatives who who you know, I only using it because it kind of it helps and you know, it helps them make more money. But you know, whenever it's just about enlightening people and inspiring people, then they're not for that at all.
But it's funny because it's another theme, isn't it. So you've got you've got you've got hope, you've got love and camaraderie, you've got fear and loneliness, and you got this persistence and resilience. I mean, the whole idea when he pulls out the rockererm and he says, oh, to escape, you'd need six hundred years with that thing, and and the fact that it's all being chipped away at and when he does the the library, you know, he writes two letters a week and he continues to do that
for six years or something. I mean, it's just it just shows the the you know, kind of well known cliche. Now if you don't, half of it is getting up, you know, half of it is showing up, and half it is just keep going, keep chipping away pardon the pun in his case. Yeah, you know, and like perseverance and you know, not letting go completely is a major theme in this. That there's playots so literally in that he you know, chips his way out.
Yeah. Yeah. One of one of the great scenes, which which I probably should have mentioned earlier because we're probably past this point, but it'll be it'd be wrong not to mention it because I feel like it's this. It's a scene where and he finds his feet in share shank, which is the the beers and the roof, and it
is it's a beautiful scene. It's a great scene. We have them doing the they're tarring something doesn't see these days, thankfully, the tarring of the roof Red because he has he's the fixer and you know, he gets all these friends and and you know, I think, and he's probably reads me lucky to get in on that detail. Red does say. You could say that I liked Andy the very first time I saw him, or something like. But if you
actually watch, it's not completely true. You know, he actually has money on him to be the first who kind of right, So that's a little little nudge or a little kind of ripple that doesn't quite ring true for me. But I got no doubt of the friendship that does occur. But this is where he he everyone kind of accepts Andy.
And I will say this though, when he's when he's overhearing Hadley's tax problem with the money that he's inherited and that his wife, you know, and the way Andy raises the topic of tax exemption is a very dangerous way to do it. He really could have gone, listen, I'm an accountant, I'm a lawyer. I could help you with your tax issue.
But he goes strang from the building.
Yeah, he go, he goes straight forward. Do you trust your wife?
Exactly? Probably not the opening normal countains would use.
Yeah, but but it is it is. I love the fact that you know, and and the whole light and changes they had the CPS. It's not the most golden moment of Shawshank as far as the light, you know, they yeah, and and Red says, we drank SuDS with the with the sun on our backs. Uh, and and and he's not drinking. You know, he just did this given up and he which you know, almost a redentive thing to do.
Perhaps, Yeah, I mean it's a fantastic line that that Read says on behalf of Andy that you know the reason he did it was not because he was interested in having a drink, but you know, the reason he did it was just to feel normal for a moment. Yeah,
you know, to do something good and real. You know that that's and the fact that he's sitting there aloof and watching them and you know, and the characters are now warming to him, and it really was his turning point with yes, because that's when he started to get protected, that's when he started to get best treatments. That's when started unraveling. Oh sure, going in the right direction for him until it all went wrong again.
Yeah. Absolutely, So we'll move towards the end now. And did you did you did you get to the place where you thought Andy had given up? Hope he does. Obviously he comes out of the hole and and he has that chat with Read again. They're sitting up against the wall again. They're not standing up, they're sitting down. This guy's tim Robinson's height and this way he gives him the directions, but they kind of speak about hope as well. That again, it's really important to have these
discussions that hope is dangerous. Andy, you have you have to give up on this and this is you know, Andy's in this kind of he's speaking that low broken he said, he said, he sounds broken, and Andy gives him some directions. I don't think you ought to be doing this to yourself.
And this is just shitty paved dreams.
I mean, Mexico was way to held down there and you're in here, and that's the way it is.
Yeah, right, that's the way it is. It's down there and I'm in here. I guess it comes down to a simple choice. Really good busy living. You're good busy die Andy Bred.
If you ever get out of here, do me a favor, sure anything. There's a big hay field up near Buxton. You know where Buxton is. There's a lot of hayfields up there. One in particular. It's got a long rock wall with a big oak tree at the north end. It's like something out of a Robert frostbow. That's where I asked my wife to marry me. I went there for a picnic and mad love into that oak and I asked, and she said, yes, promise me, Red, if
you ever get out, find that spot. They said, that wall, you'll find a rock that has no earthly business.
In a main en ave field.
Here's a black volcanic glassy. There's something buried under.
And I want you to have what happened?
What's buried under that.
You left the bride up?
You see, I mean the making love was probably too much information.
Yeah, exactly. I started to visualize that. I thinking, Okay, under the tree, the rocks, W does W does tell? What was her name?
Debbie does VHS That's what it was. So it's I mean, it's quite brilliant in that Andy is selling hope back to Red in this moment, like he's giving him something to strive for in a way and the wonder about and to imagine and and I think that's that's hope, and it's interesting to think about. Okay, So he must have known because this all happens obviously, yet this money in this letter's not there yet. He's got this plan, so he's gonna you know, he's got a rocking mind.
So he is really peddling false ol. But let's not go there. You know, Like he's like he is being overly hopeful. Yes, he's doing it in its own right, you know.
But I think he's confident that his plan is gonna, you know, yeah, work out.
Yeah. I mean this is you're now getting to. I don't want to turn anyone off the film because it's brilliant. This is the part I like least about the film.
Specifically, which like this this scene, or where it goes.
From here or where it goes from here?
Where it goes Is this the escape or is his post the escape?
So so I wanted the redemption to be Andy gets buried by red.
Right.
I wanted him to die in the prison that I didn't want. I didn't want the redemption in its literal form. I want it read to carry the hope, right. I want it read to convert to be hopeful. And then I don't know Andy letter, you know, I don't know Andy leaves in a letter and he goes off and lives a great I don't know. I struggled with the literal redemption, like when he's driving down the road in the convertible, I went no, no, no, no, rest I
don't want a conronable driving in the winding road. I don't want like and I know the symbolism of the green and the ocean, the blue and the Pacific Ocean, but I don't know it's I didn't need it. But yeah, yeah, I kind of I didn't want the literal redemption.
Yeah right, yeah, I mean, I I mean I saw this, you know, over twenty years ago. You know, I don't think like most people didn't see it the cinema, I don't think, but I thought, you know, not long after that, and I probably wasn't in that mind space where I was like, like you now, where I was thinking about, Yeah, I probably wanted the happy, happier ending.
Yeah. They don't kill off characters twenty years.
Ago, Yeah, yeah they Yeah, so I was. I've never thought about it. I never thought about like that that I've always I got to see, this is one of the perfect kind of act third acts. You know. I always back to the future being a perfect third act.
And I feel that this is because this is this is a a thing where if you're watching if you're watching Shaw shank and it comes on around this time, you're canceling your plans and you watch it because, I mean because the because the way it all unfolds is brilliant, and the little moments you get along the way, and the come uppance of the ward and when he realizes when he sees that the rock camera in love that in print the shoes, you know, and you can't because
we don't know, you know, And I said, they do a really good job of thinking what what happened? You know? Red is upset the longest night of his life. You know, the cells open in the morning, he doesn't appear. We see him the night before with rope in his hands. It's basically a noose, and you kind of do think, did you ever think that could happen?
Well?
I was kind of so. I loved the twist of the rock camera in the Bible. Yeah, and I love the fact that he took twenty years, not six under the tunnel out. I kind of loved it. I just wanted him to die doing it, Like I just wanted him like I would have been happy for him to escape or to to die trying to get that note out to read or whatever like that the rope strangles
him on his escape through the tunnel or what. I don't know, like I didn't want I didn't I didn't want him, Tim Robbins or Andy to literally have redemption like that. I kind of I wanted it to be red, you know. I wanted it to be Red that comes
right and gets hope and comes you know. And you could say he did in the end, but I wanted him to be I wanted us to feel the loss of Andy and then to feel the the the rejuvenated somehow rejuvenated hope of red because he had met someone he loved or whatever.
Well, and you make a bel ap point in that it probably is Read that needs the redemption more than Andy. Andy, and he's an innocent man. And yes he had a dark moment where he was loading a gun and and and that. But I'm not sure I've done that. We've all done that. But so you don't do you need twenty years for you know, for him the kind of you know, for that moment to be redeemed. I don't
think so. But it's red. It's red who has who is guilty of his crime, who has lost hope, that has a bigger journey as far as redemption goes.
You're you're right, yeah, And and and when he's walking on the beach at the end and with the sandaler's shoes on on his shoulder. I I don't know, I just I wanted to feel more from him, you know, And I know it's a buddy film, so in the end they're together. But that was my only with that said, Like, I loved it. I loved the end. Yeah, it's I didn't hate it. It was the part I liked least, you know what I mean. Like I and again now picking apart the film and you know, and you kind
of see it differently than washing over you. It would have washed over me, you know, twenty years ago.
But yeah, yeah, the escape, you know, I mean, it's one of those fun things to watch in in movie history, like in movies in general, a good escape or a heist or escape when you kind of don't know how he's done it, and when you see it or play out, there are a couple of things that you know are convenient, you know, like the weather that he you know its gonna.
Be done right wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.
I'm so surprised in a way, to be honest, when he when they see him walking with and he's wearing the warden shoes, and it's revealed later that they didn't maybe lay in at least some rain, you know, or you know, or this this is something about whether there was some inclement weather coming, you know, and you know, a hackeyway could have been a warden saying there's going to be storms tonight or something, you know, like somebody saying that so, which would mean nothing to us in
the moment. But then when Andy does that, it'd be like, ah, okay, so he knew. There's just something about that. It's just too convenient that to happen now. And then I'm not sure if that's how surage works.
If that I wasn't either.
It may be if anyone works in the.
A sewage experts, Yes.
If there are yasny at gmail dot com, I'll get us on the speak pipe. Let us know.
Is that how it works exactly? Call Shane Jacobson and see what he knows. But but but I guess for me, I love the idea of the escape because it was the one up of it's the long game, you know, it's the perseverance, it's the hope beyond you know, despair, it's it's it's all about and I did enjoy Uh, I enjoyed it all the way up and when he it's when the rain's coming down and he stands up and he's covered and you know, he's not really covered, and shit, it's kind of out now off. Yeah yeah, yeah,
exactly exactly. And I loved all that. It's it's kind of a bat point onwards and and even pacing wise
from that point onwards. I thought that sort of languid, that that sort of slow pace worked well in the prison thing, in the prison environment, but when he brought a noted into the real world, it's suddenly felt a little different, like it was a bit like it's just a slow ending, like it felt like a number of stops and starts towards the end, where I didn't feel any of that within I mean, we're picking now, but I didn't feel any of that within the prison.
Yeah. Yeah, he kept.
The same pacing, this kind of slow, melodic pacing in the real world. Uh. And I jarred a bit for me as well.
Yeah, And I did love when Red gets out and you know, again, it it took me to apply where it's like, okay, he's read going to get through this we've seen Brooks. He goes to the same hotel. He gets up and he writes, yeah, read was he too?
And I love the line where he says, uh. He turns to his boss and that when he's packing the groceries and says, can I go to the toilet? And the guy says, you don't have to ask me? And he did. The vol comes on and says, I can't piss a drop without permission or whatever. And it's just see, I love that stuff because to me, it's you. You're you're sort of feeling the impact of the dehumanization inside and it's just so amplified on the outside. And then
it makes you question a whole bunch of things. You know, it makes you question the difference between rehabilitation and incarceration. And you know, he's he should be redeemed at this stage because he's deserved his time. He seems like a good person, yet he's still institutionalized even on the outside. And like, I don't know, as soon as we get to writing in the convertible and where do you get that convertible?
Yeah, well I think it goes what three one hundred and seventy five thousand, dollars or something love that which which to today's three and seventy thousand dollars today's money is two point nine million.
That he would have walked away. Okay, so you've.
Got a convertible. Ok, you got the comvertible. OK.
Well, he really should have given Morgan Freeman more money than the bus.
He should it should have been a convertible weight he's.
Got two million, he should have a convertible wait for Morgan Freeman or even a small plane take him down there.
I did love that. It was the he's only the second crime he's ever committed was breaking parole. I thought it was a nice touch. He finds he finds the oak tree where they made love, you know, unncessary detail, and.
He SIPs through the dirt that had been there.
That's reated say how many times you got his? Oh my god? So and then and then there is a letter. Let's have listened to the letter.
Mhm H.
Dear Red. If you're reading this, you've gotten out, and if you've come this far, maybe you're willing to come a little further. You remember the name of the town.
Don't you say?
Walked in nil?
I could use a good man to help me get my project on wheels. I'll keep an eye out for you and the chessboard. Ready, Remember red Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies. I will be hoping that this letter finds you and finds you well, your friend Andy.
The lovely little touch that Morgan Freeman does when he gets the letter and then when he gets the money, is he he looks around.
Like, yeah, exactly, he's been in praising his line someone getting me in.
An open field, and he's still looking around for prison wardens.
Yes, it's I mean, it's It's a gorgeous moment, isn't it.
And you wonder, you wonder if if Andy dies in this film. I like the idea if we're you know, to reach into your thoughts, if I think you want to see Andy get out of share shame, and like you said, maybe he does die on the way out where he dies.
Try Hope is last for Andy.
Yes, But but Red Red does get it, and Red finds the redemption, and and and and and signs up for hope. Yes, I feel like that's that that does work for us of the greatest films.
Much lovels on the planet. But since we are like cutting it up a bit. That's how I felt towards the end, and I'm probably not alone in people that thought the ending was a bit not pollyannish. But it was a little bit not even that it would be expected, it was just a little bit American.
Well, there's no doubt this film does tow a line where it could have so easily have have tippled over into mawkish kind of land. You know, it's it's it's a fine balance. I think they get it right.
And it's not markets though. I mean that is a good but you know, that is a good point. I don't think it goes there, but it starts to towards the end. It is certainly nowhere there throughout until the very end in my.
Mind, because it because it has balanced effect, you know, with with some pretty violence beatings and you assaults, So there is there is that which I think does really help it. Before we go, I got I got some fun facts, like you said, Tom Tom Cruise almost played Andy and that was because Rob Ryiner was going to almost well he wanted to, so I mentioned before Darrabant had directed a short film called Woman in the Room.
He was keen to get out of horror. Rob Rainer loved the book as well, which this is a comes from. It's a short story of Stephen King could read a Hayworth and the short Redemption, and it's in a book called Different Seasons. It's got four different short stories in it. Three of the short stories have been made in the films. One is a one called app to People, which Brian Singer did in the in the nineties. The other one is another classic stand by Me is from that book.
So I'm not sure what the fourth story is there, but it has not.
It has not one with the clowns.
It's not clo that's a full on that is a full on book itself, so it's not that one. Not sure what I'm not sure what that one is. But next time you okay, you're gonna come back and we'll do those devils watch it. He Here are some other casting options. Certainly Tim Robbins was not the first choice.
Tom Cruise I rober Owner was going to do it, and then Jeff Bridges was considered, Kevin Costner, Matthew Broderick, Nick Cage and the other big one who it was literally offered to, and he chose to do another film that year was Tom Hanks, and he chose to do a little film called Forrest Gump, which he wins the Oscar for. Yeah, of course Red was going to be
played potentially well. Some of the ideas were Clint Eastwood, Harrison Ford, Paul Newman, Robert Redford and Sydney Pointier, who actually knocked it back because he thought playing a black man in prison wasn't necessarily helping seotype stereotypes. So he said, no, it's funny actually because he's such a Red. I think he's seen it's such a dignified kind of character in that film that like far Bie. For me to disagree with his to Poitier, but I think he would have
been amazing in that role. The young, the young. The photo of young Red is actually the photo we see when he with his parole meetings. He's actually young Alfonso Freeman, which is Morgan's son.
It did it jarred with me every time because I was like, that's not him. Even back then, like I kept thinking that's not him. He kept showing you.
Want to as an actor, you know, surely, but maybe not. Maybe I was thinking Morgan for probably would have had some head shots they could have used, but maybe he was smiling or maybe had his his hands on his hand on his chin or something, which doesn't work as for a mog shot. He's also in the prison yard. When he comes in there, they're talking about they're going fishing, and he's doing a mock kind of reeling somebody in here. So he's in it twice. It's a Roger Deakins, who
I'm sure you you know. He's one of the great cinematographers. This is his first Academy Award nomination. He's been nominated for many many times. He basically does all the current Brothers films. He did nineteen seventeen with Sam Mendez, recently later on a twenty forty nine So Carrio Prisoners. Like I said, all the the Coen Brothers film sky Fall, The Assassination of Jesse James, and the Cow Robert Ford.
I think he finally wins his first one. He got he famously kept on missing out, and then I'm pretty sure he got his first one for No Country, for Old Man Redemption. He was the Deacons Redemption. He also does a podcast if you're interested, with his wife, who's like in I think it's got Team Deacons. His wife works closely with him to help put the crew together and they do a really interesting podcast together for those
for those interested. And just I talked a lot about the year nineteen ninety nine been one of the greatest movie years ever. Had films like Being John Malkovic, Three Kings, Magnolia, The Matrix, A whole bunch of great films were released in ninety ninety nine, but there's something to be said about nineteen ninety four, where this film is released for
like pure like crab pleasing movies. The five nominations for Best Picture that year were Forrest Gump, Four Weddings and a Funeral, a rare comedy nomination, quiz Show Robert Redford and saying it refines really good show, but maybe that hasn't lived in the public's memory as much as the other ones, Shawshack, Redemption, and Pulp Fiction. Yeah amazing, that's a strong field.
That's a strong field.
So and Tom Hanks Wings for Forrest Gump and Yeah, and also other other movies that year with Lion King Hans Zimmer wins the score for that, Bullets Over Broadway, the Three Colors Trilogy, or atleast the Blue One came out that year. True Lies, Speed is a pretty a pretty good year, A pretty good year. Mate. You are You're as busy as as they come. You have just wrapped on your latest doc Oat series, which is which you do some terrifying things. I'm often privately concerned about.
You ask God, this is fine, this is all about the internet. Well yeah, but now it's changing, This could be changing our brain.
This could be the most terrifying one you've done. Maybe to watch.
I think it'll be a shocker for a lot of parents, but hopefully it's useful, is all.
It's much needed. It is the battle, you know, the amount of conversations I have with friends who are parents, and the amount of conversations we have on the project. Very rarely do we have answers and and so I can't wait to watch it. But how did you how did you find making it?
Is?
It? Is it?
It is confronting as our father and as someone who is swimming in the digital world and struggling with my own digital habits. It was a bit shocking. Yeah, it's The opening of the film is pretty hardcore, like, it's pretty full on. There will be a lot of conversations
it's off the opening. I think people will just be wanting to talk with their kids about it, and there'll be a lot of sheepish kids looking to the floor, pretending they know nothing about what they're seeing, but knowing everything about what they're seeing.
So do you suggest watching it with you? It's open.
Yeah, there's some sections that are a little bit hard to watch. But this is the thing, right, this is their world. Yeah, the parents will be shocked even say it. I have a line in there where I say before I said, what you're about to see is concerning and in some cases graphic. So for the parents in the room, this is a warning. For the kids in the room, you know what's coming.
Well, yeah, that's great and.
So yeah, and that's the point, is the sort of duality of lives we live. You know, we're kids, on average these days are spending forty to fifty hours a week on TikTok, you know, or on social media. And they live in that world and we don't. Because we lived in a world where we had an option. You know, we lived in a world. I lived in the world where the phone at one stage was attached to the wall, so in there was there was no internet so unique.
Oh I am, I am now often be mused and I'm guilty of it as well. Like we we do see screens as as a kid's problem, you know, or a problem facing our kids. But but it's not, it's not it's it's it's all of us and and.
And the film is my film is not directed directly at kids, for everything is about us. As you know, there's four point six billion people trapped in this experiment controlled by a handful of white men. Yeah, that's just the reality we live in right now, a handful of primarily white American men, four point six billion people. It's not a small amount, you know, that's not that's not just kids, no, And it's not just Australia or America.
And it's a yeah, and it is a it's a strategic beast. You know, when you as soon as you know, you know it was probably recently ago we started learning about algorithms and how how how we're targeted, and it's this is this is, like I said, a strategic and we.
Live in an algorithmic world now that is beyond a humans comprehension. You know. Jeff Siebert's in the film, and he was in the social dilemma. And he was the former head of product at Twitter, and we're in the valley and he was explaining. He said, oh, there is a human alife that understands these algorithms. There's self learning machines. They're off. And here's the crazy part. We're just at
the foothills. If we don't get regulation and if we don't wake up to what's going on, we're just the beginning. We're just right at the beginning. You know. The where this could go is you know, people say, oh, are you being alarmist? Yes, there's an alarm involved, but I think we just need to be realistic where we are. It's like smoking. We went all those years thinking smoking was good for us. Doctor is on air telling us
smoking's fine, don't worry, I smoke. And now we look back at that and go and legislation pass to protect smoking. And now we look back at that and go, oh, god, we should have protected our generation of children from this. The reason we regulate advertising from kids. I mean, it's the same thing we need to regulate.
It's the thing I think about most as a parent. It really is like, am I going to Yeah, those conversations are almost oh my yeah, one of my kids coming to me. And you know, I've got a twenty year old on the sevene year old and I feel like they've navigated that pretty well. I've got a fourteen year old who are more concerned about well.
I highly recommend it. It's out next week. I think next week week after the tenth. If you're on a Monday, I think, if you can get your kids around the screen, do it, man. It'll be a really good conversation. Yeah, I think, and lots of practical tips on things we can do as parents or as individuals to help kind of mitigate some of the damage that's happening.
Are you saying, Todd, that you're giving us some hope?
Yeah, there's hope definitely. The second half of the film's o. The first half is very shosh. It's all going downhill. Second a half act to Act one, oh boy, Act two start to come up. Act three we're off.
So it's early on it's hope is a dangerous thing. And then then it's like, no, you need hope. You need hope, Randy, you need help, red thanks mate. Well there you go. That is Todd Sam's in the show Shank Redemption we finally found somebody and who hadn't seen it, and I'm so glad it was Todd because he's such he's a filmmaker himself, and he loves film, and he always is so insightful and fascinating with what he has to say in his observation. So that was that was
really fun. You know, I'm relieved that he loved it because I know a lot of you love it. I love it. Not many people I know have what Shawshank redemption come away, you're not enjoying it, So great news for Shawshank fans. Yeah, really, really, really a whole bunch of fun. Derek Myyes, is my co pilot here. He runs Castway Studios. If you're looking for a somewhere to do a podcast, whether it's in here, in the studios, or even remotely, get onto Derek my
Castways Studios dot com dot au. Derek, you're a show Shank fan? Shortly, yeah, everyone is. Everybody is, Yeah.
But I Reckon a prison movie fan. I probably didn't realize it till till I started to them. I just looked up a bit of a list before I found a website called prisonmovies dot net.
Right, right, and it's.
It is phenomenal, like it has like the top five hundred prison.
What are the other ones that you like that you speak to you with the Birdman of Alcatraz, I really enjoyed.
Yeah, so a lot of them as a kid affect. You know, you're talking about the high school thing, and I agree with you there that fascination with American high school. That's another world and it's good. I think that the underside of that, if you like point of that is like, oh my god, don't get caught. You grow up with watching prisoner going don't look too bad really, and then you see Papillon, you know, or that, Okay, that's a bad example.
It's not.
It's not American, but you see this Alcatraz stuff and all the all this stuff with proper not just how bad prison is, but real horrendous corruption and stuff like that. I was a huge fan of brew Baker, right, Robert Redford, Okay, put that on the list. Love love brew Baker and as a cool hand Luke fan.
Cool hand Luke, I love im, Like I'm looking forward to doing that.
Brew Baker is it's about a guy who's a criminologist and he gets the job as a governor obviously as they would say, liberal or lefty kind of new governor, and he goes in undercover as a prisoners. It's pretty tense, probably thirty years since I've seen it, but absolutely love that Baker Brew Baker put it on.
Get onto that. Now you can get onto us through our speak pipe, Yes, a speak pipe. If you follow the links on our pages, you'll find it and you can leave us a message where we can hear your your dollsic. Tones. And I believe we have one today, Derek.
Yes, we've got Jason Carter sent one.
Through jas by guys.
Jason here. Just want to let you both know that loving the podcast. Although I'm struggling through fear and loathing in Las Vegas at the moment, it's one that I've got to catch up on. There's been a few lately that I haven't actually seen, and one of the cool things about the podcast is it's got me to pull my finger out and go and watch a few movies that I haven't made the effort to do on the path.
So going pretty good, although I'm struggling with fear and loathing, so I'll get through it and then I can listen to that ed.
Remember a while.
Ago you mentioned that you had a few guests that you wanted to have on, but you were struggling to find a movie that hadn't seen and I just wanted to throw out there. Maybe you could try some of the original movies that won the Best Picture awards at the Academy Awards, things like Grand Hotel and Cimarron, which they're interesting movies. I don't know where the hell you'd find them. I think Cimarron I hide it on VHS from a library about ten years ago, so it'll be
out there somewhere. But something different and give you a chance to get I think Lucky Hume was someone that you mentioned. Give you a chance to get some of those guys on the pod. So but I'm keep it up, really enjoying it.
Catch it later, Thanks Jace. What a great suggestion. We have struggled to get one that Lucky Hume definitely, even though he had some legal blonde and I try to pitch that, but he not that it knock that on its head. But Grand Hotel and Cimmaron are great suggestions I know we have and we're trying to lock down a time. But Hamish Blake will be coming on the show, and he'll be He'll be doing a film that, to be absolutely honest, I hadn't heard of, and I won't
mention it just yet. I'll mention it as soon as we confirm it that he'll be appearing and it's recorded. I don't want to get into the Judith Flucy situation of saying she'd be doing sound of music for years and years and years until we finally do it. So but that's in that thing's in that genre of really films that a lot of people maybe wouldn't have even heard of. So I'm happy to put Grand Hotel and Cimmarron on the list that they are great suggestions. Good luck.
Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, I kind of felt like I wanted to yell at the Jason there, Derek, because of course, the Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas episode was a bit controversial because our guest Dan Connell was supposed to watch Lost in Translation but accidentally watched Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. I hadn't well, I have seen it, but I was operating a lot on recall as opposed to my extensive deep diving that I
like to do on these films. So yes, Jase, if you listening to this, I hope you got through it, okay, mate, And I hope you enjoyed that episode. So we had a great time with Dan despite the mix up coming up and you ain't say nothing yet. Next week, well, I thought we've had some big guess Darren Hayes. A couple of weeks ago, we had obviously Todd Sampson. Today it's some of a giant to be Australian television scene. We've already had Cat Stewart early in the year, Sushi Mango,
Glenn Robbins, Bloody Hell. Next week we have a Gold Logi nomine a woman who's always, always, always funny, Julia Morris, the host co host of I'm a Celebrity to Get Me out of Here. She's one of the funniest people in this country. I adore her. She's so entertaining and she will be watching for the very first time, believe it or not, the Adam Sandler classic Happy Gilmore. Yes, after Shaw Shank, we are lightning things up again with a comedy that really launched Adam Sandler to the world.
We've discussed Adam Sandler a bit on this podcast. People have different reactions to him, so it'd be interesting to see Julia's take. Obviously she knows who Adam Sandler is, but this is a film that I think endeared him to the world. That's next week, Julia Morris, Happy Gilmore sharring Adam Sandler. Make sure you're tune in for that, and before we go, a little different outro this week. This is dedicated to my good mate Todd Samson. Thanks for joining us, Todd. This is the score from Debbie.
Does tell us enjoy.
Even be reading
In the